Advice please

[slleipnir]

Sorry if I've asked this before...

Are there any trainers here? I have a question for you. I need some help training Zeke. First of all, Zeke is a VERY soft dog. Yelling (even if it's between my dad and I or whoever) he gets upset. Even if I am playing tug with him, and it accidently hits his face, he is afraid of it till I can show him it's fun again...So, if we're walking, he will come when I call him. He he smells something and doesn't "listen" then I can raise my voice and he will come.....The problem, however, is dogs. He is a very social dog, and he LOVES to play. So, when he sees a dog, no amount of yelling or calling will bring him back until he's been over and smelled the other dogs. I would like to walk him in the park offleash and not worry he is going to run up and bother other dogs or get in a dogs face that he shouldn't.

He has come A LOONNNG way with his training. I'm very pleased with him, but I can't seem to break him of this completely. It's like, when he see's a dog he goes deaf? I don't understand because I have complete control over him ANY other time. He does what I ask him without fooling around. (what I mean is, if I say sit, he sits right then..he doesn't try to push me...like other dogs I own :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) so to me, I see myself as alpha to him. He is submissive as well...so WHY would seeing a dog make him not listen to me? I find it so confusing. WHY just dogs? Is he not socialized enough? Or to much?

I can remember about a year ago when I joined flyball. If he was offleash in there, he was running around the whole place, going crazy. Now, he is starting to do exchanges and he comes right to me with other dogs in the other lane and in his. He is doing very well. He listens better at flyball then outside. I just don't get it. He is a very intelligent dog, he should be able to be trained out of it, so what do I do?

What do I do when he runs off to see a dog then comes back after a few mins? They say I'm suppose to praise him for coming back, but if I don't be firm with him, won't he think he can do it whenever and it's all good? I understand that yelling at him when he came to me is just saying "hey! don't come to me! bad dog!" but at the same time, isn't it like saying "Hey, you ran off, good dog!" ? It confuses me.

I have been taking him to the park everyday and running him in a fenced in place. We do a lot of throwing the ball, him fetching it and coming back for the tug. We play around, then do some obedience, then some chase games. Sometimes there are other dogs around that the owners will let Zeke and their dog play...so he does that as well.

Another thing is, when we walk, I let him go ahead and get absorbed in sniffing before I call him. As soon as he turns his head to look at me or start to walk to me and say "YESSS!!!!!" then he gets really excited and runs to me. I'm trying to do that a lot too...

-sigh- he still needs work...what am I doing wrong??? I've only started "serious" trainnig 2 weeks ago, but he's always known what come means. IT would be super if I can get him over this.

Are some dogs just more "dog" crazy than others? Will he grow out of it? (he is around 3 yrs old)

Sorry this is so long :o

[CathyBogart]

I don't have any advice...no offense, but...it's people who walk their "friendly" dogs with no reliable recall off-lead that ruin parks for people like me. I have two dog-aggressive dogs, and I can't tell you how many times someone's "friendly" dog has barged up to us and caused all sorts of problems.

Please please please refrain from walking him off-lead where others have their dogs on-lead until he has a reliable recall. What if he charges up to a large dog-aggressive dog?

[slleipnir]

I guess you didn't read my post very good....I DID say I let him off in a FENCED in area. And I ask people if it's ok for him to play with their dog before letting him play....I said I would LIKE to walk him.

(besides, everyone walks their dogs off leash in this park. Why should mine be an acception?)

[.sarah]

I'll offer you advice for what I'm doing, but this is something that I just "thought up" one day and I am by no means a dog trainer, so take it with a grain of salt :o It is working for Nova, though. She used to be the exact same way and she has a fairly good recall now.

I wait until Nova gets comfortable with the dog, whether it's a new dog or a dog she already knows. I wait until she settles down more with the dog and they're not in the "butt sniffing" phase. Then I get really close to her with a treat or a toy and I call her making sure she knows the treat/toy is there. Then I pay quite a bit of attention to her. Belly rubs, treats, playing with the toy, etc. After a while I moved further back from her, maybe 10ish feet, and tried calling her again, still with the treats or toy. Once she had this down pat I moved back more and more, and eventually I plan to remove the reward but I'm not ready for that yet. I don't feel comfortable that she'll come if there isn't a reward.

I'm not sure if that will work with everyone, but it sure is working for her.

[CathyBogart]

I think I read it "good". All it says is that you let him run in a fenced in place. That doesn't mean it's necessarily an off-leash area or that you ask anyone's permission before letting him offlead. No need to be defensive, that was just my thoughts.

Also, I never said you did let him offlead, I just asked, for the sake of people with dog-aggressive dogs, that you didn't until he had a reliable recall.

I should add that I'm GRATEFUL you want him to recall reliably - there are few things scarier IMO than an offlead dog in a public place who doesn't come when called, too many things can go wrong.

[captain]

I have the same problem with my 2 - who seem to be DEAF dogs when it involves other dogs and playing.

Captain is SUPER friendly, and if another dog is agressive, he turns and runs :D
Ruby is not really friendly, so I have taken to letting her run about, and if I see another dog, I put HER on the lead ..... until I know if the other dog is OK or not.
I tend to take them to places where other dogs are not really around - mainly for Ruby. I get abit worried when other dogs come running up to my dogs too ....... so I can see both sides :D
I have noticed that if I turn and walk away from MY dogs, they notice it and come after me (well, Ruby does, Captain takes his own sweet time!)

I am not sure how to get around the "issue", and Ruby is exactly the same as Zeke with regards to being abit "timid" if you accidently hit her. I just put that down to her being a "girl" :rolleyes:

I am hopeful someone gives YOU advice that I can use too!

We seem to be in the same boat ....:D

Good luck!

[slleipnir]

Ok...well, to answer your post, no he doesn't run loose. SOMETIMES I take him through the park off leash, but I am very watchful for dogs. Trust me, I own a very dog aggressive dog, I am not about to let him run up to any dog. I haven't had any problems with grabbing him before he sees any dog. He needs to SEE the dog fairly close before he sees it. If he knows its there, but can't see it, he will come as called. However, I usually don't do that, simply because I don't want to chance it.

And, sorry to be defensive, but no offense, it seemed to me that you simply jumped to conclusions instead of asking me.

(also, sorry I can't type properly, I'm to tired to think of proper spelling for the word "thoroughly" instead of "good" lol hense it wasn't proper...??)


I think I read it "good". All it says is that you let him run in a fenced in place. That doesn't mean it's necessarily an off-leash area or that you ask anyone's permission before letting him offlead. No need to be defensive, that was just my thoughts.

Also, I never said you did let him offlead, I just asked, for the sake of people with dog-aggressive dogs, that you didn't until he had a reliable recall.

I should add that I'm GRATEFUL you want him to recall reliably - there are few things scarier IMO than an offlead dog in a public place who doesn't come when called, too many things can go wrong.

[Corinna]

Sounds like Zeke is a very sensitive boy . I think just using your voice to control him will work. Using the word NO should be enough do it with a firm but loving voice should draw him back to you. He may have too much socilization , sounds like he's the guy at the party with the lampshade. He thinks evey one is a freind. He's one i wouldn't let off leash for a while yet. Of course I 'm one of those people who never let my dogs off leash in public areas . At home or in show and training areas yes but never any where else. Not that I don'rt trust them I don't trust any one else and their dogs. Seen too many "oh my dog would nevers" only to witness fights and hurt animals and kids . Mine on a leash I can go after the stranger without fear of mine getting scared and rnning off . Even Merlin was never off when we left the yard and when he was at work with me leash stayed on .

[slleipnir]

Yeah, Zeke loves everyone and anybody. He's a great little guy. And I guess it's my problem too, cause I say Zeke would never pick a fight or whatever...but I'm more worried about him getting in a dogs face that IS aggressive...cause he really likes to get in dogs faces lol. So he wouldn't....but he would cause it. lol. -___- I hope my new training methods will work. I think the park is a good place to do it, cause A LOT of dogs walk by the place I take him (it is a baseball field, but it's fenced in)

[CathyBogart]

Didn't mean to jump to any conclusions, if I come off as pissy it's prolly cause I have three midterms in the next two days, sorry. DBF says I've been grouchy this weekend but I can't tell.

I taught Star to come in a fenced in tennis court, using lots of treats as bribes, but she was never interested in other dogs to begin with (I think that's her coyote blood). Wilbur....well, he's either smart as a whip with zero desire to please or really stupid. I think it's the first. I haven't been able to teach him to SIT, let alone to come when he's called. -_-

[Dixieland Dancer]

The most fundamental part of any training is solid attention work. In teaching attention you are teaching the dog that nothing is as valuable as you are. Attention starts with the dog sitting in front of you and something enticing in your hand. Extend your hand with the treat all the way out. Immediately when the dog glances your way instead of looking at the treat, you give it to him and give a "YES" or if you do clicker training a "click" (I'm a big advocate of clicker training). It has to be at the exact second the dog looks at you instead of the treat. Be patient if the dog stares at the treat. Eventually he will glance at you. Keep repeating this until the dog understands looking at you gets him the treat.

Then start to increase the time the dog looks at you to a couple seconds instead of just a glance. If he looks back at the treat give a "oops" sound and break out of the position then start over. It is important to break out of the position and say "oops" so the dog understands something wasn't right. He'll figure it out eventually that he was the cause of the treat going away for that second.

You must be very repeatitive at three seconds and be consistent in getting the dog to do it correctly at least 20 out of 15 times before increasing the time by a few more seconds. Your goal is at least 30 seconds of attention on you instead of the treat. When you get to 30 seconds you are ready to start all over again in heel position and introduce distractions on purpose.

Once the behavior is shaped I put a verbal command on watching me. I never give a verbal command to behavior until I believe the dog understands it. I use the words "watch mamma" and point to my eyes.

This is a starting point. Let me know how it goes and I'll supply more information when your ready to move forward. I don't want to overwhelm you with too much info at once. Eventually, you will get to the point of working on recalls but for now, you need to establish solid attention work. In other words you need to learn to crawl before you can walk or run.

[slleipnir]

I'm just bumping this, will reply later

[lv4dogs]

You have gotten some great advice here so far.

Kaige is going through that stage right now. I am hoping it is just a stage anyways. We are working very hard on it so I am sure we can nip this in the butt.


I understand that yelling at him when he came to me is just saying "hey! don't come to me! bad dog!" but at the same time, isn't it like saying "Hey, you ran off, good dog!" ? It confuses me.

Nope, its like saying "hey you came to me, good dog"! ;)

Let your anxiety go (I know it is HARD) but instead of being firm & upset be REALLY happy & goofy when he comes, see how much a difference that makes after a week or two of training. You should see a big improvement.
You need to be funner than the object that is occupying him. Its hard but you have to do it.

Instead of having him off lead have him on a long lead, 30 or more feet. This way you always have control over him yet he can't run away.
Call him ONCE, if he doesn't come call him a second time & pull him into you. You should only give a dog ONE chance at any command, the second time you help them.... there is never a third time.

Good luck!

[poofy]

The most fundamental part of any training is solid attention work. In teaching attention you are teaching the dog that nothing is as valuable as you are. Attention starts with the dog sitting in front of you and something enticing in your hand. Extend your hand with the treat all the way out. Immediately when the dog glances your way instead of looking at the treat, you give it to him and give a "YES" or if you do clicker training a "click" (I'm a big advocate of clicker training). It has to be at the exact second the dog looks at you instead of the treat. Be patient if the dog stares at the treat. Eventually he will glance at you. Keep repeating this until the dog understands looking at you gets him the treat.

Then start to increase the time the dog looks at you to a couple seconds instead of just a glance. If he looks back at the treat give a "oops" sound and break out of the position then start over. It is important to break out of the position and say "oops" so the dog understands something wasn't right. He'll figure it out eventually that he was the cause of the treat going away for that second.

You must be very repeatitive at three seconds and be consistent in getting the dog to do it correctly at least 20 out of 15 times before increasing the time by a few more seconds. Your goal is at least 30 seconds of attention on you instead of the treat. When you get to 30 seconds you are ready to start all over again in heel position and introduce distractions on purpose.

Once the behavior is shaped I put a verbal command on watching me. I never give a verbal command to behavior until I believe the dog understands it. I use the words "watch mamma" and point to my eyes.

This is a starting point. Let me know how it goes and I'll supply more information when your ready to move forward. I don't want to overwhelm you with too much info at once. Eventually, you will get to the point of working on recalls but for now, you need to establish solid attention work. In other words you need to learn to crawl before you can walk or run.

I really got a lot of info from this, and am i missing your post or have you been gone for a while??

[Dixieland Dancer]

I really got a lot of info from this, and am i missing your post or have you been gone for a while??

Thanks! I've been very busy and haven't posted much. I do drop in from time to time as time permits and sometimes I'm able to post and others I spend the time catching up on posts. There are so many anymore it is hard to keep up!

SLLEIPNIR: I guess one thing I should stress is that until you have a solid attention established, it is best not to work on a recall. While it is possible to do recall without attention, it is like putting the cart before the horse. Things work better when they are in their proper order. Having a solid attention with Zeke will help establish a solid recall (your ultimate goal) when it is time. Be patient... it will come! Until then, you should not let Zeke off lead at the dog park because he may encounter an aggressive dog.

When you are ready to move forward (if you try it this suggested way) let me know. I'll give you the next steps.

[captain]

That helps me so much too!!!!!

Thanks so much :D

[slleipnir]

Thanks for the info.

When you say "don't let him off leash at the dog park" does this mean don't let me off leash AT ALL? I do not take him to the dog park. I don't care for it, personally. I take him to the human park (;)) and let him off leash in a baseball diamond (fenced in) with no other dogs (unless I find out the dog is friendly and allowed to play, then sometimes he will play with the dog) I find he NEEDS to run off leash because he needs the exersice. I simply cannot walk long enough, or fast enough for what he needs. He is a runner, and I believe he needs it. So, assuming there are no dogs in with him, would it ruin everything to let him run??

That being said...I did some focus work with him. He was looking around at everything, and I tried saying "Watch me" and holding a treat in front of him. I said "Yeeesss!" when he gave eye contact. He got a little confused at first, wondering what I wanted him to do, and he started to bark. I had to point to my eyes for him to get it.

I had him on leash as we were leaving, and this big saint bernard came. I tried to do the watch me thing again, but he wouldn't even turn his head to me until the dog past. I let them sniff, should I not let him go to the dog at all?? Anyway, the dog left, and he kept looking at it, but I could get a quick look in the eyes and praise. I literally think he is deaf when he sees dogs!! I'll keep working. Will he really learn to focus on me? I know when I work Josie, if she knows treats are involved, and lets say we're heeling, she won't take her eyes off me. Even walking, she looks right at my eyes. A trainer told me once that that is really good...to bad she is only like that if I had food lol

[k9krazee]

What you are explaining is EXACTLY what Jack is like :eek: !!

We worked on the "Watch me" command for a long time in the house and slowly added distractions and he is excellent at watching me...unless he sees another dog. We enrolled in obedience classes and he was HORRIBLE the first night and wouldn't pay attention to me and only to the other dogs, but after the first day he was great and paid them no attention. He is just like Zeke, always wants to meet and say hi to other dogs. I too take him to a park (well, the middle school) and let him run offleash, he has a perfect recall if no dogs are present but if he sees a dog he goes completely deaf :rolleyes:

That being said, I will keep a close eye on this thread for any other tips that will help us! ;)

[slleipnir]

What you are explaining is EXACTLY what Jack is like :eek: !!

We worked on the "Watch me" command for a long time in the house and slowly added distractions and he is excellent at watching me...unless he sees another dog. We enrolled in obedience classes and he was HORRIBLE the first night and wouldn't pay attention to me and only to the other dogs, but after the first day he was great and paid them no attention. He is just like Zeke, always wants to meet and say hi to other dogs. I too take him to a park (well, the middle school) and let him run offleash, he has a perfect recall if no dogs are present but if he sees a dog he goes completely deaf :rolleyes:

That being said, I will keep a close eye on this thread for any other tips that will help us! ;)

I'm glad to know Zeke isn't the only one. I was beginning to think it was just Zeke!! At flyball, all the new dogs seem to do just fine with other dogs (IE, not OVERLY interested) Zeke seems to be the only one!!

[lv4dogs]

You should always keep them on a leash until their recall is as solid as a rock.
Just what if he runs away & doesn't come when called, all your training up to that point went right down the drain.

How about a long training line? They make them up to 50 feet, possibly even 100 feet. Let him have all of it, just keep your hand on the end. He will still have a ton of movement.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Thanks for the info.

When you say "don't let him off leash at the dog park" does this mean don't let me off leash AT ALL? I...let him off leash in a baseball diamond (fenced in) with no other dogs ... I find he NEEDS to run off leash because he needs the exersice. So, assuming there are no dogs in with him, would it ruin everything to let him run??

That being said...I did some focus work with him. He was looking around at everything, and I tried saying "Watch me" and holding a treat in front of him. I said "Yeeesss!" when he gave eye contact. He got a little confused at first, wondering what I wanted him to do, and he started to bark. I had to point to my eyes for him to get it.

I had him on leash as we were leaving, and this big saint bernard came. I tried to do the watch me thing again, but he wouldn't even turn his head to me until the dog past. I let them sniff, should I not let him go to the dog at all?? I'll keep working. Will he really learn to focus on me? I know when I work Josie, if she knows treats are involved, and lets say we're heeling, she won't take her eyes off me. Even walking, she looks right at my eyes. A trainer told me once that that is really good...to bad she is only like that if I had food lol

I edited some of your post out for responding to it. First, if you are in a controlled area and no other dogs (your problem) are around, then let Zeke run if you can. I agree that sometimes dogs need to run for exercise, especially if they are high energy dogs. Just make sure the dog is safe at all times. This will NOT ruin any of your training.

Second, you are rushing things by putting a verbal command of 'watch me' on the first day you try this exercise. The idea is to make the dog think and realize he has to "watch you" instead of you telling him to "watch you". That is why I never put a verbal on a command until the dog understands the concept of what he is doing. He needs to do the thinking, not the listening! He will be confused at first and looking at everything except you. That is why when he even glances in your direction he immediately gets the reward. Looking at everything else but you is a normal response at first until he realizes when he looks at you he gets rewarded. Be patient. This can take time for the dog to figure out, depending on how often you work him in the exercises. I would recommend doing it at least twice a day for 10 minutes and even more if you have the time. Don't go any longer than 10 minutes. I've seen some dogs NOT look at their owners eyes for minutes with the owner getting frustrated. It's hard just to stand there and wait for the dog to look but at this point in the training that is exactly what you have to do. If the dog doesn't look at you at all, your reward is not a big enough value to the dog. Try using something more enticing.

Last, think about this scenario... the dog acts up when he sees another dog and then he gets to sniff or play with the other dog. His reward for acting up is he gets what he wants... to play! If he gets rewarded everytime he acts up with the reward of playing or getting to sniff another dog, it just makes sense that he thinks that is acceptable behavior. So the answer to your question is NO... they should not get any interaction when inappropriate behavior is involved. Will he ever be able to play with other friendly dogs again. Of course! But for now his goal is to focus on you. A gentle tug of the lead and a really enticing reward (bigger than him looking at the other dog) has to be readily available. If he doesn't listen and continues to misbehave with wild behavior, it would result in a down and me standing on the lead so he couldn't pull. We would stay in that position until he does focus on me. Only when he focuses on me would he get any kind of reward.

You stated that Josie listens when food is involved but not anytime other than that. In positive dog training you need to fade the lure or treat once the dog has a firm grasp on the concept. In training, instead of every time she does something she gets a treat, lower it to every other time and when she has that down then ever third time until you get reliable commands even when no food is present. A dog who is food motivated only was never weaned from food rewards properly.

He will learn to focus on you! It takes time and practice, practice and more practice! :)