Pack behavior with pics...

[Glacier]

I was thinking about pack order and dominance and all that stuff earlier today, after reading the kissing thread. My guys decided to put on a little display of pack behavior while I was outside splitting wood. I should have shot this as a video. It was pretty cool to watch. My pack doesn't have a completely clear order. Among the dogs, Muskwa is the alpha followed by Heyoka. Everybody after that kinda switches around depending on the day.
Heyoka was trying to lounge today, but three of the submissive boys were bugging him to play.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Glacier1998/Dogs%202006/heyokasubm.jpg
Antare, Delta and Ozzy are bugging him. Even though Heyoka's on the ground, the other dogs are approaching him in a submissive manner
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Glacier1998/Dogs%202006/heyoka_domin.jpg
Ozzy was licking Heyoka while the other two wooed at him.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Glacier1998/Dogs%202006/heyoka_antaresubmit.jpg
Oh, alright, I'll play a little bit with you guys.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Glacier1998/Dogs%202006/antare-okie.jpg
Even when Heyoka is on the ground, Antare is still in the submissive position.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Glacier1998/Dogs%202006/antare_submissive.jpg
Everything about his body language tells Heyoka that Antare knows who the boss of him is.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v38/Glacier1998/Dogs%202006/heyokahansum.jpg
One picture of just Heyoka, cuz I think he's handsome!

[Corinna]

Did you see the post I did about Sunset mag's article on the Iditarod? I could copy it and e-ail it if you can't get it there .I would really like your take and corrections if any ( :rolleyes: ) need to be done.

[Glacier]

Did you see the post I did about Sunset mag's article on the Iditarod? I could copy it and e-ail it if you can't get it there .I would really like your take and corrections if any ( :rolleyes: ) need to be done.

I did see the post. I've never seen that magazine here, but can't say I've really looked for it either. I'd be interested in reading the article though.

[.sarah]

I see Nova do that a lot with Mandy, though she doesn't with Luka. Everything tells me that Luka is dominant (she does everything before Mandy) but neither Mandy nor Luka "bow down" to each other. I just ... can't really figure it out. I desperately want to hire a behaviorist :o

[Suki Wingy]

This thread is really cool! Niño's a really pushy dominant dog. He walks up to dogs in the dog park and just bullies the crap out of the other dogs.

[Alysser]

:D Cool pics and really cool way of showing us pack order!

[Jadapit]

I love your dogs. The whole pack behavior thing is so intresting. Jada is the top dog here. Ebony kisses Jada a lot, its good to know that its really a submissive thing. I have been told by some pit bull owners that it will be best if Jada stays top dog. I hope Ebony keeps respecting Jada like she does. Diamond is the at the bottom of the pack. Will I be able to tell if Ebony ever tries to take top dog away from Jada? Are there things I can do to keep Jada as top dog? Sorry for all the questions but you really seem to know your stuff when it comes to dogs.

I agree Heyoka is very handsome!!

[Ginger's Mom]

Great pictures, and very interesting. I am glad that you caught that on camera. Yeah, if you see other interesting pack behaviors we would love to see them. I find this fascinating. I am also glad you caught it because I think Heyoka and Antare are two extremely handsome guys, and I am always happy when I get to see pictures of them. :)

[finn's mom]

Very cool photographs, and, captions...dog behavior is fascinating to me, and, it's awesome to see it come alive in your dogs and the photos you share. Heyoka is so beautiful! I need to find a picture or two of my parent's malamute, Paka...he was their dog a long time ago, I don't even know if I was born yet. But, he was a handsome dog. :)

[Glacier]

This thread is really cool! Niño's a really pushy dominant dog. He walks up to dogs in the dog park and just bullies the crap out of the other dogs.

I think there's a difference between that kind of behavior and being an alpha dog. I could bust Muskwa loose in any off-leash park (I used to all the time when we lived in a city) and know there would never be any trouble. Both Muskwa and Heyoka almost never fight or show physical aggression. They will posture with each other--a little growl, staring contests--but that's it. When my dogs fight, Muskwa and Heyoka are rarely involved. It's the middle of the pack dogs that get into it occasionally. Muskwa will actually break up an altercation. He'll go stand between two growling dogs until they back off. He never does anything, just stands there and glares at them, like a ticked off parent sending fighting siblings to their rooms!

I'd bet that Nino is what I call a Beta Bully--second place in pack order and thinks they should be the alpha. My Hoodoo was one of those . Then he tried to bully a GSD one day and got his butt kicked. Be careful with it. Hoodoo didn't get hurt, but a bully dog can get in a lot of trouble in a hurry if they bully the wrong dog.

[Glacier]

Will I be able to tell if Ebony ever tries to take top dog away from Jada? Are there things I can do to keep Jada as top dog? Sorry for all the questions but you really seem to know your stuff when it comes to dogs.



Yup, you'll know. They will probably fight for it, if it ever happens. Some dogs couldn't care less about their pack order. Earle is like that. He just doesn't care. How old are your girls? Both spayed right? I would expect that if they are both adults(over 2 or so) that the pack order would be pretty stable until one of them is older and begining to weaken. Then things might switch around.

Some trainers say that you should reinforce the alpha dog by feeding them first, petting them first ect. I don't do any of that. As long as they remember that I am the boss of all of them, the dominant ones included, I don't care about their pack order. They can work that out among themselves.

[Jadapit]

Yup, you'll know. They will probably fight for it, if it ever happens. Some dogs couldn't care less about their pack order. Earle is like that. He just doesn't care. How old are your girls? Both spayed right? I would expect that if they are both adults(over 2 or so) that the pack order would be pretty stable until one of them is older and begining to weaken. Then things might switch around.

Some trainers say that you should reinforce the alpha dog by feeding them first, petting them first ect. I don't do any of that. As long as they remember that I am the boss of all of them, the dominant ones included, I don't care about their pack order. They can work that out among themselves.

Thanks for your input. Jada is two, Ebony is only 10 months. They are both spayed. Ebony was spayed before she ever came into heat. I have been told that a dog can change between 18 to 36 months. Would it be wise for me to let them work it out (if it comes to that) with Ebony being a pit bull? I am the top dog here so that has to help right? ;)

[.sarah]

I'd bet that Nino is what I call a Beta Bully--second place in pack order and thinks they should be the alpha. My Hoodoo was one of those . Then he tried to bully a GSD one day and got his butt kicked. Be careful with it. Hoodoo didn't get hurt, but a bully dog can get in a lot of trouble in a hurry if they bully the wrong dog.
That sounds like Mandy. She got her butt kicked about a month ago by Luka. She lost two teeth -- one had to be surgically removed -- and has quite a few puncture wounds. We hope that everything has been worked out. They seem to be content now, but still if we can't watch them we keep them seperated. It can be stressful but Luka has already found her forever home and we're not about to give her up because Mandy is a b*tch (she has started both fights they've had). But, Mandy has come a long way since I started working on her agression a year ago, and I only hope it's going to get better. She's going to a real obedience class starting Wednesday. Hopefully it'll be an opportunity to learn that I'm the boss (she's a lot better about this, but even tonight she started humping me) and also an opportunity for socialization.

I wish I could just let them figure it out with fighting, but that was a 10 second fight and Mandy got seriously hurt. I think Luka could kill her easily. She has major strength and age advantage.

[Glacier]

Thanks for your input. Jada is two, Ebony is only 10 months. They are both spayed. Ebony was spayed before she ever came into heat. I have been told that a dog can change between 18 to 36 months. Would it be wise for me to let them work it out (if it comes to that) with Ebony being a pit bull? I am the top dog here so that has to help right? ;)

That's the key to maintaining peace--you have to be the leader of the pack over all the dogs. Nope, I wouldn't let them fight it out, regardless of their breeds. I don't let my dogs do that. They have other ways of working out their order. Fighters are seriously and quickly punished--any dog involved in a fight is punished(unless they are hurt). I don't care who started it. Fighting is not okay.

I assume they've been together since Ebony was a wee one? I think that helps too. Muskwa put Earle in his place when Earle was 7 weeks old. Earle never questioned it again. Muskwa is and always will be the boss of him!

[Jadapit]

That's the key to maintaining peace--you have to be the leader of the pack over all the dogs. Nope, I wouldn't let them fight it out, regardless of their breeds. I don't let my dogs do that. They have other ways of working out their order. Fighters are seriously and quickly punished--any dog involved in a fight is punished(unless they are hurt). I don't care who started it. Fighting is not okay.

I assume they've been together since Ebony was a wee one? I think that helps too. Muskwa put Earle in his place when Earle was 7 weeks old. Earle never questioned it again. Muskwa is and always will be the boss of him!

Thank you so much! You have been a big help. Yes, they have been together since Ebony was little. Jada also put Ebony in her place when she was small. Ebony totally respects Jada. I have had no problems at all with Jada and Ebony fighting. I can read their body language real well so if they are getting to upset with each other when they are playing I make them take a time out.
Thanks again for all your input it helps a lot. :)

[cyber-sibes]

I think it's interesting to see Heyoka with the three sibes, you can see how much larger he is than they are. With our "mini pack", Star is definitly the alpha. i was just discussing her "alpha-ness" today. I noticed that when I wake them up, she is immediatly alert and checking everything out, whereas Sherman has "bedhead", his ears are flat, his eyes are half shut and he looks all groggy, and it takes him a minute to really wake up. I thought maybe she's more alert because it's her "job" to watch out for her pack? Would this be an alpha trait?

[cali]

When my dogs fight, Muskwa and Heyoka are rarely involved. It's the middle of the pack dogs that get into it occasionally. Muskwa will actually break up an altercation. He'll go stand between two growling dogs until they back off. He never does anything, just stands there and glares at them, like a ticked off parent sending fighting siblings to their rooms!

lol same deal here, now that Misty is fully established as Alpha she does not start fights, she breaks them up. and oddly enugh she breaks up fights between dogs she has never met before and they always listen to her, no matter how large or dominant they are, I dont know how Misty does it, but I suppose Misty WAS bred to handle cattle and her mom has stopped a raging bull in his tracks.. lol

pack order is VERY important to my dogs, we tried the punnishing severly thing(both dogs no matter who started it) if they tried to fight it out, that was a HUGE mistake, because all that did was make them fight more and fight worse, we had so many dog injurys from alpha fights when we were doing this, finally we stopped, let them fight it out, and guess what? 1 injury free fight and pack order is fully established, with nobody challanging it. Perky likes to bully Happy, that that is not alpha wars seeing as perky has ALWAYS been above Happy lol Happy does not challange perky and submits to her on sight.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Having so many dogs would really give you the opportunity to observe dog behavior on all kinds of levels. It's really fascinating to see, thanks for the pictures! And we only see one aspect, too, I always wish that I could smell like a dog for a day or too, and see what that feels like for them.

Marta is top dog at my house, but has never shown any aggression to Adele. Only sometimes she will keep toys away from her. They are both pretty laid-back about it. At the dog park, though, Marta will be submissive and lay on her back for any dog who appears pushy, she is smart enough to not want to start any trouble. Adele doesn't have her sense though. :rolleyes: She is usually only submissive to Marta.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

now that Misty is fully established as Alpha she does not start fights, she breaks them up. and oddly enugh she breaks up fights between dogs she has never met before and they always listen to her, no matter how large or dominant they are, I dont know how Misty does it, but I suppose Misty WAS bred to handle cattle and her mom has stopped a raging bull in his tracks.. lol

Marta tries to "break up" fights, too. She will bark at dogs that are showing aggression. Does anyone know what this means?

[poofy]

I was thinking the same thing ,on pack order last night..glad you posted this..SAmmyj may look cuddley but hes an alpha dog, Hes a bit agressive but i put a damper on it when were aound other dogs, mostly he ignors other dogs except yollie..hes not even a barker,neiter is yollie except at play..
I like the order you put them in , those were really great pictures and I loved seeing it played it..thanks..pj

[k9krazee]

Heyoka is sooo handsome!!!!!

Our house Shadow is the Alpha, everybody submits to her and will only lick her face. Mini is constantly trying to challenge Mini but Shadow puts her in her place immediately, I'm sure once Shadow is older Mini will be Alpha. I think Pack behavior is sooo interesting!

[Suki Wingy]

I'd bet that Nino is what I call a Beta Bully--second place in pack order and thinks they should be the alpha. My Hoodoo was one of those . Then he tried to bully a GSD one day and got his butt kicked. Be careful with it. Hoodoo didn't get hurt, but a bully dog can get in a lot of trouble in a hurry if they bully the wrong dog.
Ok, that is good to know. He just goes up to every dog and postures to them and kind of makes sure they know who's boss, even after the other dogs get it. He started actually growling and almost trying to hump an intact boxer but we managed to call him off that time and we left.

[ramanth]

That is really cool! I can see the submissive behavior with the ears back and low heads. :D Kia does that belly up pose with me all the time. Especially when I'm not to happy with her. ;)

Oddly enough though, she switches from dominant to submissive depending on the dog. She can't just pick one and stick with it, making trips to the dog park interesting..

[pitc9]

....sigh......oh Heyoka.. one of my (many) Favs of yours!
My two take turns!
Sierra will lay just like Anatare when Buddy's laying down, but then the next thing you know she's standing with her head over his shoulders/back confirming her status as alpha.
Ugh... they are either very confused pups or they both really don't care! LOL!!!

[lv4dogs]

What great pictures!

I think Nanook is giving up his role as pack leader (after all these years) and Raustyk is taking his place.
I am so glad pack structure is not TOO important in my house as it is a little confusing right now. One minute Raustyk acts like the leader, then the next she acts like Nanook still is. I don't know if it takes a little while for it to fully happen or if it just because of how she feels at that moment in time or what.
Due to this I'm not exactly sure if I should just jump right in & just treat Raustyk as the alpha from now on or just continue to treat Nanook as the alpha until he looses all aspects of the leader position and I can see more clearly that it is in fact Raustyk that is the leader.
I don't know if I would help it along or just prolong it and confuse them in the process.

There is by no means any fighting, aggressivness, behavioral issues or anything associated with the pack order so I am not really worried. It's pretty much just affecting body language, play time & the like.

[Queen of Poop]

Your dogs are all such beautiful babies. I love to see them.

This alpha, pack thing is very interesting. At our house, Sami was the pack lead. When Sami died (almost 2 years ago), Sasha was lost. She spent the next 8 months hiding in my walk in closet. Now, she thinks she is the only one with anything to say. I'm not sure if it is in a border collie's nature or not (she might have learned it from Sami - part husky) but she will woo-woo at me and tell me all kinds of stories now.