Jail or War?

[cocker_luva]

This is not meant to cause trouble, it was just a topic we ended up talking about in my government class and i thought i would see how the citizens of this family felt. :D

[Karen]

Go to war. My family has a strong military tradition, and while I may or may not like a given politician, our armed services serve all of us, not a certain political party or politician.

Only by going to war could I assure that at least one soldier fought fairly and with the honor, dignity and respect all human being deserve. If I am not willing to do that myself, how can I ask others to?

[.sarah]

War, I agree completely with what Karen says.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I say go to war, but I could be biased....read on....

This is exactly how Terry ended up in Vietnam! He was just a teenager (but at least 18?) and had committed some stupid little petty crime. The judge told him either enlist or you're going to jail - so he enlisted in the Marines. He credits the military for turning his life around. Had he gone to jail and been amongst all the other criminals sharing their tricks of the trade (so to speak), who knows where he'd be today. But because the military taught him discipline and many many other things about life, and the fact that I'm sure he prayed more than once "Please God, if you can just get me back home in one piece, I'll never be bad again." There's a good chance he would have been drafted anyway, but this way the judge let it be Terry's choice whether he wanted to serve his country or have a record.

[moosmom]

Call me a coward, but I'd rather go to Canada.

[Samantha Puppy]

War. I'm right there with Karen on this one.

[Edwina's Secretary]

How can anyone answer this question...if you will..... unquestioningly? If I thought the reason for war was just and right....I would be the first to sign up. It is not the brand of the politician that concerns me....it is the reason for the war.

If I am going to perform a task where the objective is to kill as many human beings as possible (who may have no more desire to be there than an order) it needs to be for a just cause.

If I thought the reason for the war was NOT just I would take jail.

I believe being a good citizen and a patriot demands more than simply following orders.

[lizbud]

Neither...

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country

Hermann Goering

[RICHARD]

I like a good fight.....I'm gone.

And to get a chance to run around singing,

This is my rifle, This is my gun
This one's for fighting..

PRICELESS! :D
------------------------------------

Thanks Terry!

-------------------------------------


Sometimes you HAVE to fight.....

Butch Thomas Goring
Los Angeles Kings
1971-1980

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Call me a coward, but I'd rather go to Canada.

Sorry, Donna, but that's not an option. It's either jail or war. So which is it? ;)

Richard - Terry says "You're welcome." :)

[Lady's Human]

This should answer the question:

[Uabassoon]

I'll admit it, I'm a wuss. I have nothing but respect for those who serve our country because I know I'd never want to do it. I'd rather be in jail cell with cable television then out in the desert. Many US prisions pamper their inmates. They get a/c, television, workout room.... However if I were a guy I think my choice would be different as it seems that men in jail have a much worse time than women in jail.

[PJ's Mom]

I have to agree with Laura. There's no way I could do what our soldiers do. I wish I could. :(

[JenBKR]

I voted that I would go to war, but I think it might depend on the circumstances. It's hard for me to say what I would do in a given situation until I am actually in that situation.

[jackie]

Depends on the war.

How can anyone answer this question...if you will..... unquestioningly? If I thought the reason for war was just and right....I would be the first to sign up. It is not the brand of the politician that concerns me....it is the reason for the war.

To answer the question, Iraq or jail? I would go to jail.

[RICHARD]

This should answer the question:

And 'Thank You' too!

------------------------

Sorry to move this into a different direction but.....

When you have an army who's men and women are going to say"Why?" everytime they get an order, you do not have an army any more.

I find that I admire our soldiers (forget the justification for the war for a second, OK?) MORE because the go to war without asking questions.

DO NOT DISCOUNT them because they do not ask "WHY?"

Elevate them because they put aside THEIR beliefs to do a job that some of us want to do, but can't - and that some of us have the courage to admit they cannot.

No war is "just" and I know that no soldier wants to go and kill anyone for s and giggles.

------------------------


Only the dead have seen the end of war.
-Plato

[Edwina's Secretary]

I was thinking about this as I am preparing for a class I will be teaching next week (it is in L.A. RICHARD...wanna come?) One event we discuss is when the US government sent Federal troops (at the request of John D. Rockefeller) to put down a strike being conducting by American workers at a mining operation in Colorado.

Shoot first...questions later?


I find that I admire our soldiers (forget the justification for the war for a second, OK?) MORE because the go to war without asking questions.


So....a solider is not responsible for his or her actions if they are "only following orders?" Wow....I get a feeling of deja vu all over again!"

[RICHARD]

I was thinking about this as I am preparing for a class I will be teaching next week (it is in L.A. RICHARD...wanna come?) One event we discuss is when the US government sent Federal troops (at the request of John D. Rockefeller) to put down a strike being conducting by American workers at a mining operation in Colorado.

Shoot first...questions later?



So....a solider is not responsible for his or her actions if they are "only following orders?" Wow....I get a feeling of deja vu all over again!"

Can I bring you an apple? :)


Why would they shoot mime workers??? Actually, Marcel Marceau kinda bugs me....

Whoa,
Let me look that one up before I make stupid statements???

---------------------

I think that there was a discussion about this before.

Soldiers are always told to defend themselves.
If you are shot at, you shoot back.

If people didn't take up arms no one would get killed.


Here's a bomb belt, go blow yourself up! is a little different than "defend yourself from people who are being stupid by shooting at you or blowing themselves up while they drive up to you."

I think that the simplification of "just following orders" is more dangerous that a loaded m-16...

Soldiers do have the ability to question an "unreasonable order"- I have yet to hear of any officer asking his men to do that....also I haven't heard of any elected official tell their constituents to do the same.

I have to dig into my bag of SA comebacks-sorry.........

If war is not the answer, what was the question? :confused:

[caseysmom]

I voted war because I was assuming if I went to jail that meant I had done something bad. I guess that was probably a wrong assumptions. Still I would rather be somewhere where my kids could be proud of their mom.

[Lady's Human]

ES, The use of federal troops for law enforcement is patently illegal in the United States. Posse comitatus ring a bell? However, in the past, right or wrong, we have given a pass to Officers who order their troops to fire on civilians if they were following orders from higher. We even celebrated one, and elevated him to a 5 star command, Gen. Douglas Macarthur.

ANY United States soldier who thinks that they are being given an illegal order has the right and the duty to question the order. Officers and NCO's are given classes in the law of land warfare, and are expected to enforce it. No troop does or should question every order, correctly (in most cases) assuming that their superior would not order them to commit an illegal act. When a superior gives a questionable order, it is questioned (Sir, would you please restate that? I'm not clear on what you meant?) and if the order is illegal, the NCO or senior leader present under the person issuing the order is supposed to relieve the person of duty. That is an extreme case, but that's the way the book plays out.

[Lady's Human]

If I am going to perform a task where the objective is to kill as many human beings as possible (who may have no more desire to be there than an order)

The purpose of war is NOT to kill as many human beings as possible. The purpose of war is to eliminate the enemy's will and ability to resist, which can be done with little or no killing. If war's purpose was to kill as many people as possible, all we'd need is an Air Force and a few good bombs, no army would be necessary. If all the troops have keeping them in place is an order, and they have no will to resist, then the army ceases to exist, as the Iraqis did in 1990-91 and as the italians did in the African campaign during WW2. Those are just two of many cases of mass surrender or complete mutiny.

[RICHARD]

LH,

thanks for cleaning that up. What I meant to say is that IF a CO told his command to go out and "kill everything that moves" (while it is a great movie line) it don't fly in real life.

ES,

I understand your point of view.

On Sept 12 2001 I would have gladly gone out an throttled ANYONE who was involved with Sept 11.

Iraq is a dicey place to be. There are quite a few more questions than answers.

One of the things that bug me is the question of the "exit strategy"?

Are we supposed to throw up our hands and say, "IT'S A SPLIT DECISION-
everyone go home and we'll get ready for the next one?"

We have to win-therefore we have to tough it out.

Once you start a fight with a bully, you have kick his arse, otherwise when you get up to walk away he's gonna jump on your back and kill you.....

All Chicken S AHs fight that way.

Flying airplanes into buildings and getting kids to strap on a bomb isn't really a fair fight.

-----------------------

We are hamstrung by people who claim that they US has killed "hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians"


A nuke is far more cost effective and has less potential for military deaths.
We gotta play by the rules, so we send the troops into harm's way.

Any kind of war is distasteful, messy and full of atrocities-from both sides.

I can see the guys from Viet Nam being vocally 'Con-War' But, I can assure you that they would willingly bear arms again should it come down to it.

Historically, the numbers of men KIA have declined over the past century with every war that shows it's ugly face.

Does is mean that wars are getting cleaner? Smarter? Easier?

Nope, dead is dead. Two thousand is alot, 58,000 is harder to grasp, a few million it alot tougher to wrap my head around.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Those are just two of many cases of mass surrender or complete mutiny.

And how many cases are there of a whole lot of people getting killed before it was over? More than two?



I can see the guys from Viet Nam being vocally 'Con-War' But, I can assure you that they would willingly bear arms again should it come down to it.

Curious on what basis you make that statement. Are you personally familiar with every guy who fought in Viet Nam?

The question was "War or Jail". You guys are quite free to follow orders blindly. Me...I want a truthful and sound reason before I go off killing people.

[areias]

I voted jail...well, for this war. It's like the question, would you jump out of an airplane with a pararchute, if you didn't know if it worked, for a million dollars? I don't want to die, and I don't want to be at war with Iraq. It's not that I don't support the soldiers individually, it's that I don't support the reasons for going to war with every Muslim country on the map. Personally, I don't want to be the people you see on the videos, about to have their head sliced off. It dosen't look fun...I'm sure they regretted their decision to join the military when they felt the blade touch their skin.

And hey, every other friend and ex boyfriend of mine has been in jail, is in jail, etc. I'd probably get along great. :p

[RICHARD]

Curious on what basis you make that statement. Are you personally familiar with every guy who fought in Viet Nam?

The question was "War or Jail". You guys are quite free to follow orders blindly. Me...I want a truthful and sound reason before I go off killing people.

No, I am not familiar with every guy that fought in VN.

But I do know my cousin, who has some hellacious scars across his belly from a place called Khe Sahn. We have talked about war.


--------------------------------------


I think that all people who oppose this illegal war should stop paying their taxes, but, if they support the troops, we won't have any money to give them what they need to be safe, stay safe and carry out their mission- "blind soldiers" need bullets and beans, too!


I say give them all my tax money.

-------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

[RICHARD]

http://www.petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?p=1342008#post1342008

My tax dollars at work!!!! :eek:

[Lady's Human]

ES, If someone in my platoon follows orders blindly, I want them the hell out of the army. There's a difference between blind obedience to orders and having the discipline to follow orders. The modern battlefield is far too complex for mind numbed soldiers. We need thinking soldiers, not automatons.

[Edwina's Secretary]

What is the difference?

And RICHARD....1912...Woodrow Wilson....Ludlow Massacre....

[Lady's Human]

ES, there's a huge difference, but it's impossible to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.

[RICHARD]

What is the difference?

And RICHARD....1912...Woodrow Wilson....Ludlow Massacre....
Whoa,


It was 1914, and how did Rockefeller, as a mine owner, get the Colorado state governor to send the Nat'l. Guard in? :confused:

Me thinks me smells something nasty underfoot!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre (http://)


I read up on it yesterday.....I posted this link but didn't post it correctly.

[catnapper]

I'd go to war. I realize our country and freedoms need to be protected, and even if I did or did not agree with the reasoning behind any given war, I'd still choose war since I want to be one of the many protecting our freedoms. Some countries wouldn't give you a choice of war vs. jail - they'd just put a gun in your hand and send you to war.

Not only that, but once I return home, I am considered a hero (though this would not be the reasoning behind choosing war over jail) and can proudly dispaly my veteran status on resumes, etc. An ex-con? They are denied jobs for haven been in prison, they are looked down upon as deadbeats of society. No thanks - I'll be the hero who upholds our freedoms and protects those freedoms.

Now that said, would I join the military tomorrow to go to war? Not on your life! :p I am too much a wimp - I mourn over a squashed bug. I could never witness death, and could never inflict death myself. But given those two choices, I choose war.

[LKPike]

Call me a coward, but I'd rather go to Canada.

lol I'll join you on that one

[Cataholic]

ES, there's a huge difference, but it's impossible to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.


Good lord. That is a lovely, patronizing statment. ES- I guess you are just too dumb to understand some things...silly woman. :rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

Cataholic, that was not patronizing, just fact.

[Cataholic]

Oh, I see. Pardon me for not bowing down, humbly, my back is a bit sore this evening.

I somehow missed the concept that one must experience firsthand an event before 'understanding' it. Personally, I have experienced firsthand neither war nor jail, but, am quite comfortable with my opinion that I want neither for myself.

I imagine the list might be near endless of the events (wo)man has not experienced firsthand, yet has knowledge of. To hear anyone make the comment you did up several posts above IS patronizing. Your next post, declaring it 'fact' is nearly dismissive. I would imagine ES has the ability to comprehend many concepts she hasn't experienced firsthand...really, she is quite bright. (Remember, it was YOU that didn't want mind numbed soldiers.... ).

[Lady's Human]

To understand the broad generalities of a concept one can read about it. To truly UNDERSTAND something as complex as the interaction between soldiers it has to be experienced. I'm not being condescending, I'm just stating a fact.

There are things in the military that I could never have understood, even though I have read a lot of history, many bios, etc. There are things that HAVE to be experienced.

[Karen]

I don't think he implied at all that someone wouldn't understand just because of their gender. He knows better.

I understand that, as someone who has never been a soldier, there are some things about it I don't understand, not because of any lack of intellectual capacity, but because of lack of experience. Just as there are things about being a lawyer that I am sure I do not understand, and there are things about being a Mass Art student you wouldn't understand.

[Lady's Human]

BTW, "Silly woman" Has not one damned thing to do with it. I've served with male soldiers who i'd never allow near me in a tight spot, and I've served with women who could out perform many male soldiers.

[Cataholic]

Good grief. There are many things, even COMPLEX matters, that I do understand, even without experiencing them. Maybe you two are different, and do need the experience, I can't say. But, to lump everyone together and say "you can't understand cause you haven't been there", or, "I am just stating a fact" when it isn't a fact, it is your opinion, is inane.

Your statement:

ES, there's a huge difference, but it's impossible to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.

was patronizing. Hey, its a fact! I said so. I can't explain it to you. You just wouldn't understand. It is a lawyer thing. You didn't go to law school. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

Cataholic, you will never understand for the simple reason that you refuse to open your mind up to the POSSIBILITY that there are things you can't wrap your limited amount of grey matter around.

Was that condescending enough?

[Cataholic]

You are too much. Really, too much. Soldier on, our little warrior, soldier on....

[RICHARD]

You are too much. Really, too much. Soldier on, our little warrior, soldier on....

Having spoken to Vets from WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, Somalia, Bosnia I have found that “little soldiers, soldiering on” are people who are bigger than life.

Those are the people who have gone into combat, be it an ‘illegal war’, ‘police action’ or
‘invasion’ that are doing a job that some us find necessary, just, distasteful or ???????

These people, men and women, heard the ‘drums of war’ sounding and they went to that sound.

I am sure that all of them also heard the sound of their conscience, the fear in their hearts and idea of traveling to a far off place to face off with another human being.. If you are old enough to remember the sound of the sirens that wailed on the last Friday of every month-the tests of the civil defense system-you’d think about the soviet missle that would soon come thundering overhead. Like the old bumpersticker said- One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day.

Soldiers watch the news carefully. That little coup, civil war or jets flying into buildings
Bring that same cold feeling into every soldiers heart.

Will I see, in person, that far off place where CNN, Fox, Sky News are telling us about in person?

Please!

We kiss our loved ones in the morning and promise to come back at 5:30 in the afternoon.

Soldiers kiss their loved ones in the morning and promise to come back soon.

When? How?

Intact, a shell of themselves, missing pieces or in an aluminum box?

Winston Churchill said once that there are men out there doing things that we would not do ourselves, so we can sleep in our beds at night without worrying.

There are people who bear arms, travel to a foreign land and try to make a difference, without question, doubt or hesitation.

I admire them because they can set aside their fears and do a job that some of us will not do, cannot do or find to be distasteful.

Then I see someone like Ramsey Clark, American citizen, attorney and lost soul-in Iraq trying to defend a scumbag like Saddam Hussein.

Then things make sense.

Some kid from Midtown, USA who chooses to serve his country as a soldier doesn’t deserve the respect that some b@st@rd dictator gets.


It's funny how we take their service and lives for granted.
--------------------------

I'll pass on the lawyer joke for the moment.

But I will say that you would like the same respect for your career choice.

The men and women in the service are there because they want to.


I support the troops-no matter what.

And I think we all should.

[RICHARD]

Hey!!

As soon as we give Tookie the needle here in Cah Lee Fuh Nee Ah, there will be room for one more "draft dodger"!!! :eek: :confused: :(

[Cataholic]

Richard,
My comments to LH had nothing to do with soldiers and war, and supporting or not supporting it. I have great admiration for our soldiers. I do not have any respect for people that talk down to others, and then hide behind some title- be it soldier, doctor, lawyer, whatever. One can get their point across, as distasteful as some might find it, without insult.

As for lawyer jokes? Bring them on. I don't wear my occupation as a badge of anything other than that which brings in income, supports my family, and holds my interest most of the time.

[Lady's Human]

I swore to myself I was bowing out of this, however:

Cataholic, you were the one who threw the insult. You assumed (remember the line about assuming?) that I was talking to ES as I was because she was a female. Wrong. In doing so, you insulted me personally. I do not hide behind my title. You probably don't even know what my title is, as I don't believe I have ever posted my rank on the board.

[IRescue452]

I'm sorry you feel that war is better. I am completely against killing people and if it came to having no choice, either kill some person or go to jail, I'll take jail. At least I'll be able to die with a clear conscious. What you gonna say when you get to heaven and God asks why you killed somebody? Are you gonna act like a 3-year-old and say "b-b-but Bush told me to!"? Yeah rot in hell killing for your country's selfish interests, I'll send you a card.

[Lady's Human]

Yes, I have to admit, those of us in the military are nothing more than a bunch of evil bastards. That's why most of the relief missions into Pakistan fly in on CH-47 Chinooks. That's why Iraq has more electricity and running water than it has had in 35 years. That's why most of the rescue work done after Katrina was done by the US Military of all branches, active, reserve, and national guard.That's why the third major force on the scene in the 9-11 attacks was a large force of US Army Blackhawk Helicopters positioned to help in search and recovery. We do nothing other than kill. We absolutely hate doing civil relief and aid missions in the US and the rest of the world.

[CagneyDog]

Jail.

Killing innocent people isn't my thing.

[IRescue452]

A relief effort isn't included in my definition of war.

[Cataholic]

I swore to myself I was bowing out of this, however:

Cataholic, you were the one who threw the insult. You assumed (remember the line about assuming?) that I was talking to ES as I was because she was a female. Wrong. In doing so, you insulted me personally. I do not hide behind my title. You probably don't even know what my title is, as I don't believe I have ever posted my rank on the board.


It had nothing to do with ES gender. I think that was your sister's assumption. I called your statement about someone not being able to understand something without experiencing it patronizing. That led to your personal attacks, not mine. If that is what rankles your feathers, please, keep away from the guns. Please.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Yeah rot in hell killing for your country's selfish interests, I'll send you a card.

:eek: :eek:

Hmmm....appears we can "assume" we know where you stand in regards to supporting our troops! :eek:

Disclaimer - I know I'm "assuming" and has already been pointed out in this thread, it's not good to assume anything about anybody or any statement....but gee whiz this statement is harsh!

[popcornbird]

Jail? No way. War...depends on the purpose/justification of war. Most likely, no. Today's wars, in my honest opinion, are nothing but injust killings and abuse with no justified purpose. I would never want to imagine being a part of that. No way. Never. Perhaps jail is better because it would only be myself suffering...not me causing the suffering of others. Can't choose either one.

[IRescue452]

well, when somebody can logically justify killing people in a war, I'll take back the harsh statement. And btw, you need to prove self-defense too if you are going to use it as a justification, you need to prove that if you don't kill them they will kill you, otherwise its not self-defense.

[RICHARD]

Richard,
My comments to LH had nothing to do with soldiers and war, and supporting or not supporting it. I have great admiration for our soldiers. I do not have any respect for people that talk down to others, and then hide behind some title- be it soldier, doctor, lawyer, whatever. One can get their point across, as distasteful as some might find it, without insult.

As for lawyer jokes? Bring them on. I don't wear my occupation as a badge of anything other than that which brings in income, supports my family, and holds my interest most of the time.


Sorry I touched a nerve.

I ain't a dentist or a neurologist.

I'll toss out some one liners for lawyers.

Allred, Meserau, Geragos and Grace.


It's income, money and interest-that about clients????

Geez,

Let's elevate the E.B. soldiers up a little they stick around to clean the mess up.
Lets do a sports analogy....

Game on the line and the ref, ump or official blows a call....

They don't care as long as they get paid. :confused:

--------------------------


Having been shot at once, there is nothing more frightening on the planet.
If it had not been a hunting accident I can assure you that I would have had no second (or first) thought about taking every opportunity to return every shot.
I am going down fighting.

There is something inherently different about trading shots with someone across the way..

Our soldiers are dying because some CS MF SOB Bs are taking bombs and putting them beside a road where soldiers and innocent people are.

Please do not put logic into a statement about killing people...

The United States Government and the "evil b's" that LH referred to are the ones to blame...

So it is O.K. to drive a car with a ton of explosives into a market place where people are trying to live. :rolleyes:


Yep, blame the guys in uniforms......

They play by the "rules"..... and when we turn the dogs of war loose we still are a bunch of war mongering, blood thirsty hawks...

The Conservatives laugh when the idea that our soldiers are fighting to keep
'terrorism" from our shores.

Wait until the next terror attack here in the US....You'll pray that those "evil bastards" are vigilant and ready to get that pound of flesh in return.

There are times you have to visit a punk in his neighborhood and let him know that he cannot go into your yard, take a crap on you front porch and stand across the street and laugh about it. :rolleyes: :eek: :mad:

[Lady's Human]

Irescue, Cat, et al....

The only reason you are free to make those statements is the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen who have defended this country from day one. On behalf of a bunch of evil, hate filled killing bastards, You're welcome. :D

[K9soul]

I really can't answer the poll, because it would depend too much on all the circumstances involved. If I ever did go to war, they'd most likely have to find something else for me to do other than putting a gun in my hand. I may not have the right of it, but I believe there are all kinds of different capacities to serve other than going out and shooting at people.

Anyway, on a side note, I personally feel it is presumptive of anyone to judge another person as evil and deserving of damnation. I feel that is only for God to do.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sorry...I've been gone a few days....we are in Iraq to protect my freedom of speech. Wow....I didn't know my freedom of speech was at risk in Iraq. And I suppose Viet Nam was about my freedom of speech too. That or the ability to get really cheap manicures.

I don't blame the soldiers...I blame the chicken-livered politicans who send them there.

Our soldiers are dying because some politicans LIED to justify a war they had been planning before 9/11 (which did not involve Iraq.)

Iraq was not the punk who "took a crap" in your yard RICHARD. Don't you listen to your president? We are in Iraq because Saddam was a bad guy and we needed to free the Iraqi people from him. No WMD....no connection to Al Queda.

And we are going to teach the Iraqis about freedom of speech....right after we teach them about freedom of the press....right after we bribe them to run positive (but untrue!) stories in the newspaper.

I am put in mind of a slogan from my youth....What if they gave a war and nobody came?

So send the troops to clean up after Katrina and get power and water going there.

[Edwina's Secretary]

p.s. yes...I thought the "you can't understand it unless you are in it" comment to be very patronizing. But let's go with it. That is why men are NOT allowed an opinion on abortion. They don't get pregnant so they can't understand.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Sorry...I've been gone a few days....we are in Iraq to protect my freedom of speech. Wow....I didn't know my freedom of speech was at risk in Iraq. And I suppose Viet Nam was about my freedom of speech too. That or the ability to get really cheap manicures..

Sara, you know we're usually on the same side of things politically, and I still agree with you, but just as a clarification....

Terry really believed he was going to Vietnam to "fight the commies" (his words), who, if they won in Vietnam would be coming for the US next, so therefore, yes, in his mind, he was defending your freedom of speech. He was defending America and it's way of life and everything it stood for.

However, he will be the first one to agree that you have every right to your opinion and your right to voice that opinion. He does have a problem with people who burn the flag, but other than that, protest away! ;)

Now, about men not having input on abortion because they don't understand it - I like the way you think! :D

[Lady's Human]

ES, No problem. If we are going to go down that road, however..........

Only people with military service allowed to vote on war resolutions

only people who ACTUALLY pay taxes allowed to vote on the budgets, right down to local level

[Edwina's Secretary]

I didn't know there was an opportunity to vote on war resolutions???? So Cheney cannot vote....Rumsfeld.....I don't count what Bush did as military service....Wolfowitz....I'm thinking I might like this idea!

As for paying taxes.....have you ever meet anyone who pays no taxes? If you buy something in a store you pay sales tax. If you buy gasoline you pay tax....so who are you disenfranchising with this poll tax idea?

[IRescue452]

Actually there is no logical, empirical evidence that war has allowed us to keep our personal freedom, the only evidence we have is that war kept the US seperate from Britain, and isn't it so today that the people living in Britain can go on the computer and type what they want? We are taught that war has given us our freedom, but its not logical to come to this conclusion.

[RICHARD]

I don't blame the soldiers...I blame the chicken-livered politicans who send them there.

Our soldiers are dying because some politicans LIED to justify a war they had been planning before 9/11 (which did not involve Iraq.)

Iraq was not the punk who "took a crap" in your yard RICHARD. Don't you listen to your president? We are in Iraq because Saddam was a bad guy and we needed to free the Iraqi people from him. No WMD....no connection to Al Queda.


So send the troops to clean up after Katrina and get power and water going there.


TEE HEE!


Did I say Iraq crapped in my front yard?
I used to be easily amused, now I am easily confused..

What was that village sprayed with, you know, the place where the choppers flew over and poisoned everything??? Even in that small quanity, it's still nerve gas.....and I think nerve gas was a WMD....I probably am wrong.

Am thank you very much for showing your chauvanist side....Of course, we men can't argue about abortions, manicures....now wearing a dress, haircoloring and fashion......maybe.....


I have a comment about abortions, let me know, I'll PM it to you.


-------------------------------------------------------------

NEWSFLASH!!!!!

If i remember correctly MOST, if not all of the Politicos voted, WAR.

Now that the stupid American public has forgotten that, I'll give the Liberals a pass on that....they seem to have the same mind set as the constiuents..

Frigging brain dead.....

I hope the next terrorist attack involves some Good Old American Boys, that way we can invade ourselves.....Think of all the new improvements we can have...More roads for stupid cell phone using drivers. More guns for gangs.
What ever happened to our good ol militia boys???

LOL,

I can see some Americans taking the Suicide Bombing thing to the workplace!!
Why settle for the disgruntled shoot em up scenario!!


------------------------------------------------

Going back to Ludlow....Did we figure out what the real story was?

:confused:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Missed you in my class RICHARD....you could have learned all about the Ludlow Massacre....

as for the rest of your wild ranting....I haven't a clue what you are trying to say......

[RICHARD]

Missed you in my class RICHARD....you could have learned all about the Ludlow Massacre....

as for the rest of your wild ranting....I haven't a clue what you are trying to say......

Well I got an invitation and then no follow up!!
I promised you an apple.

Wild Ranting......I may borrow that for the name of my first book-would you write the intro for me? :D Please?

It's just a sampling of the really stupid thoughts that go thru my mind-

(gosh, now wouldn't that be a kick? Inside my brain-seeing just really how dumb I am!!!)

Actually, If you tilt your head and close one eye everything I write makes perfect sense.....


I think.... :confused:

[Vette]

Depends on what the war is for.. like somenoe else said.
and id rather do neither. not becasue im a coward or anything..
but because i KNOW i woudlnt make it in any situation

hell i hesitate in video games before i push the button to pull the trigger.
so i know i would definitly not make it out in war.. and if i did shoot and hit something by accident(i cant hit the broad side of barn with our 22) itd be my own guys..:o plus.. theres no "restart" optoin anywhere if you really screw up.

so.. um. id rather not go to war. LOL

and prison..
i dont think i could make it there either.
i cant take anyone yelling at me. im very sensitve. :o
so i cant imagine being there either.