Is A breeder allowed to... [Archive]

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:21 AM

Pretty soon my family and I are going away on holidays where dogs are not allowed. We have to give our Golden Retriever (Buddy) to a breeder to dog-sit. In our contract with the breeder it says we are not allowed to neuter Buddy or breed him. So he is not neutered...When my mom was talking to the breeder on the phone she asked if Buddy was neuetered. My mom said no. I think the breeder said something else, though I don't remember and my mom said that she may use our dog to breed puppies with one of her dogs. Is she ( the breeder) allowed to do that without our permission? I personally, I'm not quite sure about the other members of my family do not want her to breed him. Can she breed Buddy without our permission and can I tell her that I don't want her to breed him? What if she does it anyways, I don't think there's really a way of knowing if she will or not, it's not like she'll tell us if she does it. Please post, I need some answers.:(

Pawsitive Thinking

07-25-2005, 10:29 AM

Is there no where else for Buddy to go? I'm not sure of the legalities but I wouldn't have thought she could use him without your permission. Having said that, if you don't think you can trust her I'd be inclined to find somewhere else

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:31 AM

No, we tried other places- but people are away on vacation too. The breeder is a good person it's just...I dun know. He's already booked in with her.

cloverfdx

07-25-2005, 10:33 AM

Is Buddy being boarded at his breeders? If so and he is on breeders terms she is allowed to breed from him.

Lexi_Lover

07-25-2005, 10:34 AM

Did you try the vet's? Many vets do board animals, I'd try there, it would be your best bet.

I don't think she would be aloud to do that, you would need to charge stud fee, the vet's ok, making sure, eyes, hips, elbows, etc, are all cleared. She isn't a very responsible vet if shes not going to check for that. Hmm...:confused:

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:34 AM

Ya, like she's dog sitting him- that's boarding right? How is that fair that she is allowed to breed him?:eek: It's our dog isn't it?

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:35 AM

No, we don't want to leave him at the vets, the breeder would take better care of him except for the breeding part of course:rolleyes:

Lexi_Lover

07-25-2005, 10:38 AM

Hmm...well I would think that a vet would take good care, especially with all of their staff. :) Just my guess! We have a REALLY nice boarding kennel nearby us called the Paw-N-DA-rosa. Its so neat! I know of many boarders, if you PM'ed me with where you live in Ontario, I could help you. Or, bring him to a Dog Grooming place or another Golden breeder! :)

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:42 AM

I'm pretty sure it's final that he's staying with the breeder...too late to change anything now. I trust her except with the breeding thing...maybe I'll just ask her not to breed him though. Do you think that would work?

finn's mom

07-25-2005, 10:43 AM

If there were papers signed and that was one of the agreements when you all got Buddy, then, she is allowed to breed him. I would look more into what you all agreed to when you got your dog. I've heard of it before, and, as long as it's something that was agreed to, then she has the right. That would be the only reason the breeder would ask for him not to be neutered, was if she wanted him to breed. And, it would make sense that she wouldn't allow the dog to be bred by just anyone or with just any dog. But, again, if it is in the contract, unfortunately, that's how it goes. Let us know what you find out! And, what happens....

Lexi_Lover

07-25-2005, 10:44 AM

It probably will, if you show her how much you care about your dog and that you are against breeding him without everything that needs to be certified and checked. Like I said before, hips, eyes, elbows, ears, etc. Stud fee(if there is one) Why wouldn't she let you neuter him?

cloverfdx

07-25-2005, 10:44 AM

Again is the breeder that he is boarding with his breeder?

Lexi_Lover

07-25-2005, 10:45 AM

I think he is Rhi. :) It was the breeder that bred him and adopted him out to their family. Correct me if I am wrong.

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:48 AM

Yes, the breeder that he is boarding with is his breeder. I don't know if there were papers signed that she could breed him...:confused: I just know in our contract it says we cannot breed him or neueter him. Anyway, he is going to the breeders on Friday and will be back next Saturday, August 6. I'll just ask her not to breed him...I'll let you know how things turned out although I guess I'll never really know is she bred him. Poor guy...Buddy is going to be so homesick- this is the first time ever we are leaving him behind. :(

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Lexi_Lover
I think he is Rhi. :) It was the breeder that bred him and adopted him out to their family. Correct me if I am wrong.

I'm confused.:confused:

kittycats_delight

07-25-2005, 10:51 AM

I still don't think it is allowed where this person Buddy is boarding with is his breeder or not. Unless it is stipulated in your contact you got when you adopted Buddy that they can breed their female(s) with Buddy at any time without permission then I don't think they are legally allow to breed unless you give the go ahead.

cloverfdx

07-25-2005, 10:53 AM

If it is in the contract then she can breed him ;). Do you not have a copy of his contract? if not ask to view it before leaving him on Friday.

Goodluck.

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-25-2005, 10:55 AM

If what is in the contract than she can breed him? I think I will take a look at the contract...thanks

cloverfdx

07-25-2005, 10:58 AM

If he is on breeders term eg, dog is to be kept intact until he is mature to see if he will improve her lines etc.

I am off to bed.

finn's mom

07-25-2005, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by GoldenRetrieverLover_01
If what is in the contract than she can breed him? I think I will take a look at the contract...thanks

I would think that if it says not to neuter him, it's because she wants him bred. But, if it says for you not to breed him, I would think that means he's being unaltered so that she can breed him. You should definitely read the contract again to make sure it says that. I'll definitely be sure to look for that kind of agreement if I ever buy a dog from a breeder again, because I wouldn't buy a dog I couldn't spay or neuter. i would want that decision to be up to me. I hope you're able to find the contract. Let us know what it says......

Lexi_Lover

07-25-2005, 11:09 AM

But what about all the things she needs to get certified and checked, I still don't understand that!?!?!? :confused:

finn's mom

07-25-2005, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Lexi_Lover
But what about all the things she needs to get certified and checked, I still don't understand that!?!?!? :confused:

You mean the breeder? I would think if she'd done it as a pup, and, had the parents done, that might be enough. I don't know, though, I'm just brainstorming. ;) And, maybe she plans to have all that checked out.....

Pit Chick

07-25-2005, 11:25 AM

If you signed a breed back contract when you bought the dog then she has the right to breed him. If it merely states that you can't breed or neuter him and nothing is mentioned about her having breeding rights, then she needs your permission to breed because like a female that gets pregnant against the owners wishes, it can be considered damage to property. However, if she plans to breed him while you are gone and before he has had any kind of genetic health screenings/certifications or temperamant tests/certifications, then she is being irresponsible and should not be breeding period. It already sounds like she is irresponsible if she sold a dog with a breed back contract to a family that doesn't show their dogs. A reputable breeder that sells a show/breeding quality dog will usually sell it to another show person with a breed back contract because they know the dog is going to be show quality and have the ability to win titles. It would be pointless to sell a show quality pup to a family just wanting a pet. If you can't trust this person, then the dog doesn't need to stay there. One way you can tell if a male dog has been bred is how low their testicles hang. The more they've been bred, the lower they hang.

lv4dogs

07-25-2005, 12:18 PM

I agree with everyone, especially pitchick. It will state in the contract if she can or can not breed him. If it says nothing about breeding him than she has no right to breed him, but why else would she state that he can not be neutered?

If it is in the contract I would tell the breeder that she can not breed until the dog has a complete exam, (xrays, bloodwork etc) to make sure your dog is in great health & poses no genetic health risks. Especailly hip & elbow dysplasia, eye & heart disease as these are the most common problems with goldens. But you should also check his background & blood to make sure there is no record of hypothyroidism, seizure disorders and other orthopedic disorders in his genetics.

LuvGold00

07-25-2005, 12:36 PM

Unless Buddy has FULL health clearances including:

OFA Hips -- Fair or better
OFA Elbows -- Normal
Eyes -- Cleared by a board certified opthamologist (sp?)
Heart -- Cleared by a board certified cardiologist (sp?)
Thyroid tests to ensure thers is no issue there.

If he doesn't have ALL of those I would tell that breeder there is no shot she's breeding him until he passes all of them; and find another place to board him. Even if both his parents have all those clearances, it still doesn't guarantee HE will get them also... If that was the case there would be no reason for the clearances because you'd be able to breed 2 dogs with Excellent hips and all their offspring would also have Excellent hips...

BUT, on the other side... If a contract was signed that states the breeder has breeding rights to Buddy WITHOUT those clearances then I'm not sure you're options. It's a tough situation and it all comes down to what exactly was written and agreed upon in his contract.
If you need any help understanding the contract please feel free to PM me and I'll do all that I can.

Good luck!

IRescue452

07-25-2005, 02:18 PM

My guess with your dog is like most breeders: you are not the full owner, you are more like the handler who keeps the dog for the breeder. Yes she can use this do for breeding if and when she wants without your permission. If you had a female you would have an extra contract for breeding since you either would be taking charge of the pregnancy and puppies or giving her to the breeder until the puppies are weaned. Since you own a male she doesn't necessarily need to ask you and you cannot charge her a stud fee either unless it is in the contract that she will pay you to breed her own dog. Not fair? Well most breeders consider the people they adopt out to as handlers who the dog will be living with and this is all common practice. You buy a quality dog from a quality breeder then expect that dog to be used for breeding by that breeder. If you don't want your dog bred then get a pet quality that the breeder will allow you to neuter.

BitsyNaceyDog

07-25-2005, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Lexi_Lover
Hmm...well I would think that a vet would take good care, especially with all of their staff. :) Just my guess! We have a REALLY nice boarding kennel nearby us called the Paw-N-DA-rosa. Its so neat! I know of many boarders, if you PM'ed me with where you live in Ontario, I could help you. Or, bring him to a Dog Grooming place or another Golden breeder! :)

I've yet to see a decent vet boarding facility. I'm not saying there isn't any, but it's rare. I wouldn't leave my dog at the vet to board.

finn's mom

07-26-2005, 10:45 PM

Did you find out what the contract said? I'm very curious!

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-27-2005, 09:57 AM

Thanks for all your help. I have not yet looked at the contract..I'll have to do that later. From all of your help here is what I'm going to do: 1) take a look at the contract
2) ask her not to breed Buddy

She really is a good breeder, i don't have anything against her and I'm not trying to make her the bad guy. I just hope she respects our wishes of not breeding Buddy. Buddy is healthy- I'm not sure if he's had all those things checked that people have said, but I know every time the vet sees him there are no problems.

Once again thanks for all your help, I'm sure everything will turn out good and I'll keep you updated. Now I'm just worried about Buddy cuz he's gonna miss us so much...poor guy he's never been away from home like this and he'll be with the breeder for 1 week. I'm not sure how he's gonna respond to the other dogs either. He's probably gonna be really sad and whimpering to see us go...:( I'm thinking I'll buy him a new toy before we go, something to make him happy. How does that sound?

Pit Chick

07-27-2005, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by GoldenRetrieverLover_01
She really is a good breeder, i don't have anything against her and I'm not trying to make her the bad guy. I just hope she respects our wishes of not breeding Buddy. Buddy is healthy- I'm not sure if he's had all those things checked that people have said, but I know every time the vet sees him there are no problems.

A good person, probably, a good breeder, at this point is questionable. He hasn't had any genetic health screenings because they have to be a certain age to have those done and you would know if they were done because you would have been there and paid for it. His parents however should have had them done and if they didn't, that's yet another sign of an irresponsible breeder. A vet check is just for the general health of the dog, not genetic testing.

finn's mom

07-27-2005, 04:52 PM

Would the breeder be able to have the tests done in the week that Buddy will be with her? Man, I just wouldn't trust her to not breed him while he was with her. And, having that stipulation in the contract doesn't make her a bad breeder. But, if she doesn't have the correct testing done, that definitely does.

DogLover9501

07-27-2005, 05:41 PM

:eek: I've never heard of an agreement like that..I wouldn't leave my dogs there.

luvofallhorses

07-27-2005, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by DogLover9501
:eek: I've never heard of an agreement like that..I wouldn't leave my dogs there.

ditto

finn's mom

07-27-2005, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by DogLover9501
:eek: I've never heard of an agreement like that..I wouldn't leave my dogs there.

I know a few people that have breeders that do that. It's their perogative, for sure, what happens to their dogs. and, someone mentioned it already....a lot of breeders look at people that take their dogs as only partial owners. It's an interesting business. But, if it turns out that's what's in the contract, it could be a very disappointing thing for Buddy and the family. :(

LuvGold00

07-27-2005, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by finn's mom
Would the breeder be able to have the tests done in the week that Buddy will be with her?

Sometimes it can take MONTHS to get results back, the breeder sounds kinda fishy to me.... In the Golden world, good breeders don't breed without full health clearances.

finn's mom

07-27-2005, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by SunKissedGoldens
Sometimes it can take MONTHS to get results back, the breeder sounds kinda fishy to me.... In the Golden world, good breeders don't breed without full health clearances.

Yeah, I thought it might take longer than a week. I would be so nervous to leave Buddy there. It sounds like she'd breed him even if they asked her not to, I hope we're wrong about the breeder, though. For Buddy's sake.

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

07-28-2005, 09:44 AM

Oh my goodnes!! You guys are worrying way more than me...and worrying me more!:eek: Honestly our breeder is good....she has been breeding for over 20 years and her dogs are all healthy. She's very nice too...I think she'll respect our wishes not to breed Buddy. Please lets just change the topic.....:( Should I get Buddy a toy before we leave tomorrow so he's not lonely and sad?

Pawsitive Thinking

07-28-2005, 09:47 AM

Yeah! Get him a toy before you go and another when you get back! Have a great time xx

finn's mom

07-28-2005, 01:13 PM

I would get a new toy and also leave with him his favorite old toy. I think something like a comfy sweatshirt or a blanket or something with your scent on it, too, would be nice. Something you don't mind giving to your dog, as it may not be fit for human use afterwards.

Pit Chick

07-28-2005, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by GoldenRetrieverLover_01
Oh my goodnes!! You guys are worrying way more than me...and worrying me more!:eek: Honestly our breeder is good....she has been breeding for over 20 years and her dogs are all healthy. She's very nice too...I think she'll respect our wishes not to breed Buddy. Please lets just change the topic.....:( Should I get Buddy a toy before we leave tomorrow so he's not lonely and sad?

Just because she's been doing it for that long doesn't mean she's been doing it the right way. Most dogs look healthy on the outside, but it's the parts you can't see that can have the biggest problems (ie hips, heart, eyes, thyroid, etc). She may be a nice person too, but that still doesn't make her a reputable breeder. You started this thread because you obviously don't trust her, now you seem pretty confident that she won't breed him? You wanted advise and I'm sorry if it is making you worry more, but in reality, you do need to worry because she could potentially use your dog to bring more unwanted dogs with no health or temperament screenings, no working or show titles, into this world when there are enough.

Since you think that breeding for many years and being nice equals a good breeder, let me tell you about a man that has been breeding Pit Bulls for over 50 years. His name is Floyd Boudreaux and he has lots of friends, family, clients, and followers that would vouch for his "good" character and his excellent breeding practices and for keeping the Pit Bull in it's truest form for so long. He was arrested in May, his property raided, his dogs confiscated and euthanized. Why you ask? Because he was breeding, selling, AND fighting them. These dogs also all lived on the end of heavy chains 24/7, BUT they were all healthy. So, before you feel completely confident that you can trust this breeder, I would give it some more thought and reconsider. Even a Golden breeder is telling you this breeder sounds fishy. So if you don't listen to the rest of us, listen to her.

BTW, did you find that contract?

lv4dogs

07-28-2005, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Pit Chick
Just because she's been doing it for that long doesn't mean she's been doing it the right way. Most dogs look healthy on the outside, but it's the parts you can't see that can have the biggest problems (ie hips, heart, eyes, thyroid, etc). She may be a nice person too, but that still doesn't make her a reputable breeder. You started this thread because you obviously don't trust her, now you seem pretty confident that she won't breed him? You wanted advise and I'm sorry if it is making you worry more, but in reality, you do need to worry because she could potentially use your dog to bring more unwanted dogs with no health or temperament screenings, no working or show titles, into this world when there are enough.

Since you think that breeding for many years and being nice equals a good breeder, let me tell you about a man that has been breeding Pit Bulls for over 50 years. His name is Floyd Boudreaux and he has lots of friends, family, clients, and followers that would vouch for his "good" character and his excellent breeding practices and for keeping the Pit Bull in it's truest form for so long. He was arrested in May, his property raided, his dogs confiscated and euthanized. Why you ask? Because he was breeding, selling, AND fighting them. These dogs also all lived on the end of heavy chains 24/7, BUT they were all healthy. So, before you feel completely confident that you can trust this breeder, I would give it some more thought and reconsider. Even a Golden breeder is telling you this breeder sounds fishy. So if you don't listen to the rest of us, listen to her.

BTW, did you find that contract?

Very well said.

LuvGold00

07-28-2005, 04:22 PM

Dixieland Dancer

07-29-2005, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by GoldenRetrieverLover_01
Ya, like she's dog sitting him- that's boarding right? How is that fair that she is allowed to breed him?:eek: It's our dog isn't it?

It is your dog but you signed a contract. Make sure of the wording as it will tell you what your rights really are. Without seeing it, we are all just guessing. Usually a breeder will only sell potential show quality pups on a full registration (breedable stock). If the dog is not being shown then most reputable breeders sell the dogs on limited contracts (offspring can not be registered with the AKC) and require the dogs to be spayed or neutered.

Since I don't think your dog is shown in conformation, I am surprised at her wanting to breed him. Especially with no health clearances or hip analysis. Personally, it sounds like she is a backyard breeder who is only in it for the money. I would find a different place to board the dog.

Pawsitive Thinking

07-29-2005, 08:46 AM

What's happening with our Buddy?

finn's mom

07-29-2005, 09:41 AM

It's just a guess, but, she said she didn't want to talk about this anymore, so, maybe that's why there's not any more on the subject? I don't know......that's just the impression I got.

Pawsitive Thinking

07-29-2005, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by finn's mom
It's just a guess, but, she said she didn't want to talk about this anymore, so, maybe that's why there's not any more on the subject? I don't know......that's just the impression I got.

Oh dear - tricky one wasn't it?

finn's mom

07-29-2005, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Brody's Mum
Oh dear - tricky one wasn't it?

I sent you a private message.

EDITED: She might already be out of town? I don't know, I just hope that everything goes all right at the boarding facility.

Pawsitive Thinking

07-29-2005, 10:54 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by finn's mom
[B]I sent you a private message.

Just replied to you :)

GoldenRetrieverLover_01

08-08-2005, 09:36 AM

Hey! I'm back and yes I was on vacation. Actually everything went really well. We asked the people taking care of Buddy (as the breeder does not look after the boarding dogs, other workers do) not to breed him and they didn't. :) After we came back we asked if he had been breeded and the one lady said "oh no, there would have to be lots of papers and things to go through". They obviously know what they are doing then, I think I underestimated them a bit. Buddy came back on Saturday, he's really happy to be home. I got him a welcome home toy and the workers advised not to leave him with a toy as the other dogs will probably play and chew it up. Buddy was sad to see us go :(, we were too ( sniff, sniff) but know he's just so happy to be home!! Thank you to everyone for posting, I really appreciate the help - you are all really kind and I don't know what Buddy and I would do without you. :D Also, she is a good breeder. There was one person that posted about that awful breeder- our breeder had done health checks on ALL her dogs, and they are healthy- no hip, eye or any kind of problems with any of her dogs that she's been breeding for the past 20 years. The living conditions fo the dogs are great, lots of room and they are out all day, kenneled at night. They are well fed, like the owner desires and all of her dogs are well treated. Yes, I was doubting her at the beginning but know I truly know she is a really good breeder and that Buddy was well taken care of there and NOT bred. Thanks to everyone, post still if you like. Buddy says hi and thank you to all of you and gives kisses. I appreciate all the help and am just glad that Buddy is back. ;)