breeding my poodle

[sue528]

Hi All
I would like to breed my female poodle. How old does she have to be before I can breed her?
She will be a year old in 8/22/05 and has already gone through one heat last March.

[Pam]

Hi Sue and welcome to Pet Talk! It is nice to see another poodle person here! :) I would love to see and hear more about your girl! :) I don't know if you have ever bred a poodle before but there are so many things to consider. There are genetic strengths and weaknesses with this, and any, breed and there must be testing done on both parents to be sure that none of these weaknesses are passed on to any puppies.

Most of the folks here at Pet Talk are not big fans of breeders as many here do rescue. If breeding is done responsibly and by a fully informed and knowledgeable breeder that is another story. I belong to a poodle forum and there are some very knowledgeable folks there who can tell you all you want to know, and then some, about our wonderful poodle breed. If you would like info about them, please just PM me. In the meantime, please do stick around and let us get to know your poodle and don't be concerned if some of the comments are negative regarding breeding. Everyone here is very nice and just concerned that puppies are bred for the right reasons. I'll leave it to the others to explain what I am trying to say. :)

[lute]

WELCOME TO PT!!!

i advise you not to breed your dog unless you do conformation with her. the whole reason for breeding is to better the breed and unless you have a registered dog that is a good example of the breed you are just adding to the overpopulation of unwanted pups.

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Amen to what Lute said.

[Vette]

All thought i agree with what Lute said... i heard something about waiting at least 3 years before breeding... that way there it gives the dog a chacne to grow up. like letting the puppy be a puppy before it has puppies of its own...

sounds fair to me. :D



would love to see a picture of your Poodle!!!
i have a Poodle too. :D

[lute]

Originally posted by Vette
All thought i agree with what Lute said... i heard something about waiting at least 3 years before breeding... that way there it gives the dog a chacne to grow up. like letting the puppy be a puppy before it has puppies of its own...


that's right. the best age to breed is between 2 1/2-3yrs old.

if you insist on breeding your poodle then please make sure you do it right. contact poodle breeders and there are a couple people here that breed dogs that can give you plenty of information on breeding,welping, finding homes, etc.

[CagneyDog]

I personally think you should hold off on breeding her until you know all the neccesary information! If you don't know how old she has to be to breed her then maybe you should hold off and start researching more!!!

Please make sure you have homes for all of these pups, do not offer for them for free!

Can you afford to pay for the vet bills for the puppies? What if there was a problem with the birth? Would you know what to do?

[Giselle]

Before you breed, you must health test your dog (and, in this case, you will have to wait a couple years to get a good idea of what your bitch will be passing on to its offspring).

So, you'll need to test her eyes through OptiGen (optigen.com) and/or CERF (Canine Eye Registration Foundation -- www.vmdb.org/cerf.html).

Also, you'll need to test her hips through OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals -- www.offa.org).

If you can't do these bare minimums and/or if your Poodle happens to carry a genetic disease (bad hips and/or PRA), she should be spayed. Good Luck in your research and please consider spaying your Poodle. If your aim is to expand your doggy family by breeding your Poodle, then my suggestion is to go to your nearest animal shelter and adopt all the Poodles in the kennels :)

[sue528]

Thanks all for all your answers and concerns.
I did have my poodles checked out by my VET and they are both fine ( I have the male too). Actually, I used to breed poodles about 25 years ago with a friend of mine and we made a lot of people happy by supplying them with a great companion. Of course I have not had poodles for quite some time as my husabnd and son wanted to go with a bigger dog. So we've had Dobs and Rotties. Now my kids are grown and since I'm the one who takes care of the dogs, I decided to go back to my favorite breed, the Poodle. When I started to look for a poodle for myself, I had a hard time finding private breeders in my area and I will not by from puppy stores so It took me a while to get what I wanted. As soon as I did find the right puppies, I bought them. Now I have the same people who I sold to before asking me if I'm going to breed again. I am well aware of all the costs and responsibilities that go with breeding and trust me, these dogs get treated better than my husband sometimes! LOL......The thing is it's been 25 years since I did this so I do forget some things. I have done plenty of research and have bought every book I could fine but none of them say the exact age you should start to breed so I saw this website and just figured I ask.I don't know how to post a picture but I have a minature Apricot female (Fifi) and a toy male who's cream (Pierre). I understand about the unwanted dogs and asure all of you I will not be irresponsible when breeding since I love all animals too. Thanks for all your help! Talk to all soon.

[Pam]

Sue I am glad we didn't scare you away. I would love to hear more about your dogs and see some pictures if I may. :) I started out with poodles in 1970 (two toy apricots) then in 1984 got a silver mini and finally in 1986 got a black standard. When my last poodle passed away hubby told me "No more dogs because it is too hard when they pass away." Well, in 2001 I really missed running my fingers through poodle curls and found a breeder and went out and bought Bella, a white standard. In 2003 I found Ripley (black mini) in an animal shelter in terrible condition (matted, etc.). Long story short (is it too late for that?LOL! ) I am back to having poodles in my life. I understand what you are saying when you mention your *favorite breed." I share that view. :)

In order to post pictures you must first upload them to a photo sharing site on the web like Imagestation or Photobucket. If you get that far we'd all be glad to help you from there. It's not hard really - especially if I can do it!

What part of Pa. are you in? I grew up in suburban Philadelphia.

[sue528]

HI Pam
I live in a little town right outside of Philly called Croydon. As far as pictures, I guess I would have to buy a camera that does digital pictures first before I could down upload anything. I'll check it out and see what I can do. I see there are alot of people who discourage people fromm breeding since there are alot of unwanted animals out there and I hear what the're saying but I would not doing anything that would hurt any animal. My first 2 poodles (25 years ago)was a black toy named Pierre( can't seem to get away from that name)- LOL- and I also had a minature silver named Pepper! Now I have a toy (Pierre) who's beige and Fifi who's miniature and she's Apricot. Pierre will be 2 in Dec and Fifi will be on next month.
After listening to all of you , I will wait to mate them. Of course all the people who were expecting them will be disappointed but oh well, they'll have to wait. Great talking to you! Got to go right now but I'll be back later!

[wolfsoul]

Getting your dog checked out by the vet is not good enough -- she has to be health certified by certain foundations. Poodles need to be CERF tested and cardio tested (OFA). The vet's certification does not tell you whether or not your dog does not carry the specific genetic disorders found in the poodle. You could pass these traits on to the pups. Also, you should definatly not be breeding unless your dog is pedigreed. Being a dog groomer I hear horror stories quite often. One involved two people breeding their golden retrievers, only to find out later that the dogs were half brother and sister to a father with a terrible temperment. Seeing as it's a linebreeding, the pups of the brother and sister inhreited their gradsire's temperment. They were all aggressive, shy, etc. Your dog should also be involved in conformation, and something else that shows that your dog is a good example of the breed. Obedience, agility, flyball, etc. And then you must find a male that will not only have these qualifications as well, but be perfect for your dog. :) I hope you realise that breeding takes alot of time and dedication, and is very very very expensive. If you are willing to do all of these things in order to protect your breed, then good for you! Welcome to PT!

[KYS]

I love poodles.
2 days a ago when I was walking with my Aunt around
the neighborhood, I spotted a beautiful white standard
poodle. I thought she belonged to the people down
the block who own 2 of them.
I started coaxing her to follow me, when I man came
out from his garage. He had accidentally left his gate open.
Him and his wife had just adopted her 2 months prior.
He was so thankful, and begged us not to mention it
to his wife who had just drove up the driveway.
She would have killed him if she found out. lol
Happy ending. :)

If you do decide you want to breed, speak to your vet
about doing the x-rays and other tests that are needed.
He will need to take the x-rays a certain way and send them too
either the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals or one
other place that does it too. When the results come back
you will know if your two have good enough hips for breeding etc.

Per the agreement with Rocky's breeder, I had to have
my vet send Rocky's xrays to them.
Even though he was neutered his breeder not only wanted to keep records of her breeding pair but
the parents and all the off spring to keep track of generations
of breeding.

Welcome to Pet Talk,
I can't wait to see pictures of your two.

[Vette]

You dont have to have a digital camera,, as long as you have DVD ROM. :D

what you do is,, next time you take your film to get devloped,, you take it to Walmart and on that thingy that you fill out.. theres a little squar box that says (Put pictures on CD) if you check it.. they will do that for you..

then when you get home,, you put in your DVD ROM... and all your pictures will be on there.

then you can sign up with ImageShack or some type of photo stroage and upload the pictures off there. :D

[Giselle]

Oh, right, I forgot. OFA (which has been mentioned multiple times now) tests dogs' hips. KYS mentioned another place that tests hips for hip dysplasia. This would be PennHip: http://www.pennhip.org/

Sue, I'm glad you're taking this all in stride and have returned :D. However, I'm wondering why you're breeding a Toy to a Mini...? See, while we adore dogs due to their wonderful companionship, it is to my and many other's preferance that dogs be bred to either the conformational standard or used for working (herding, police work, etc.). So, my suggestion is to get both your pups into an AKC dog show and breed them to their own sizes.

[Vette]

And the knee... Poodles have issues with their knees.. especially Toys..

Kirby had an issue with is knee a long time ago. i had to take him to the vet and have them pop it back in place. and they showed me how to do it. and said it happens a few more times since then to bring him back in and they can do surgery to fix it.

luckily whatever he did to his knee(jump off something wrong,, or landed wrong) was all that caused it and hasnt botherd him since then.

[Pam]

Originally posted by Vette
And the knee... Poodles have issues with their knees.. especially Toys..

Kirby had an issue with is knee a long time ago. i had to take him to the vet and have them pop it back in place. and they showed me how to do it. and said it happens a few more times since then to bring him back in and they can do surgery to fix it.

luckily whatever he did to his knee(jump off something wrong,, or landed wrong) was all that caused it and hasnt botherd him since then.

Vette, Pumpkin, my second poodle (male toy apricot) had this. It is called a luxating patella. The vet also showed me how to slide it back in but it happened so frequently that we finally did have surgery for it and he had a pin placed in his knee cap. It is a genetic condition. Most likely Pumpkin's parent/parents had it.

Since he was only the second poodle I owned as an adult I knew nothing about finding a good breeder. He came from a breeder I found in the paper, who I later realized when I became better educated were back yard breeders, who had a male and female and decided to have a litter. Pumpkin lived to be 17 in spite of it all. Oh he also had one undescended testicle but that was taken care of when he was neutered.

:o

[Vette]

Looks like he was trying to hide them before he even knew he would miss those things...LOL ;)


that only happend to Kirby maybe about 2 or 3 more times after the vet showed me how to pop it back in. and told me to give him half a baby tylenal(SP?)

it worked. he hasnt done it since then. :D *knock on wood*

[KYS]

posted by Pam:]Vette, Pumpkin, my second poodle (male toy apricot) had this. It is called a luxating patella. >>>>>>>>>


Akita's get that too. :(

Not only are poodles sooooo cute and pretty,
Poodles are smart and have lovely sweet personalities.
As I am getting older, Poodles are looking mighty
good to me. :D

[Pam]

Originally posted by Vette
Looks like he was trying to hide them before he even knew he would miss those things...LOL ;)


Oh Vette! :D :o

Sue, Vette has a good idea for posting photos. I had totally forgotten about Walmart and some of the other stores who will put photos on CDs. I believe CVS and some of the other pharmacies will as well.

Sue, Wolfsoul has given you some good advice. I would start there. :)

I have heard of Croydon, although I grew up in eastern Montgomery County, so I'm not too familiar with your neck of the woods.

KYS you are a *closet poodle person.* LOL! I confess to being *closet pug person* too. LOL! There is just something about them that draws me to them like a magnet. Maybe someday I will adopt an adorable smashy-nosed brother or sister for Bella and Ripley and you can bring home a curley headed brother or sister for Rocky and Sheba! LOL! :p

[bckrazy]

hm... I totally agree with Giselle. Breeding a Toy to a Mini, even if the dogs are in the same breed, is no different than breeding a Doberman to a Rottie. Mixed breeds. They cannot be shown or worked in any AKC or club events, nor will they be able to be registered. Not only will you get much more money for AKC registered puppies, you'll be able to give your buyers security and proof of lineage. Your dogs sound like great pets, maybe you should consider altering them and keeping them as loved pets?

My Grandma is a total Poodle person, her best friend breeds Standards and she's had Poodles for years. She is also having trouble finding good reputable local breeders of Miniatures, mostly because Poodles are being *ruined* by puppy mills and BYB-ers breeding trendy poodle mixes. PLEASE do buy either a toy female for your male or a mini male for your female, health test them (it sounds like your Vet just said they're healthy... you will need to spend $100's on hip, eye, and elbow x-rays), and preferably show them or get them into an event like Agility or therapy work. Poodles are also very intellegent and they could probably do well in Obedience ;). You should seek out a really awesome Poodle breeder (on the internet, or in person) to talk to about everything!! Go to local dog shows and talk to Poodle owners/breeders there. Just because you bred 25 years ago doesn't mean you've got everything down... a LOT has changed since 1980 :p

[sue528]

Hi All
As far as breeding toy to minature, my VET says that's fine
my male is 10 inches and my femaile is a small mini at 11 inches so I should be fine. Thanks for all the advise as far as testing, which I will do. Will try getting pictures so I can show you my beauties!
Have to go!

[Pit Chick]

There is more to breeding than having a pair of dogs that have been to the vet. Just because your vet says they will be ok to breed them together, doesn't mean there won't be problems. What if a puppy gets stuck in the birth canal or the female has other welping complications ($800+ for a C-section)? Do you really want to put her life at risk for the sake of having puppies? Do you have a goal in mind for breeding or you're just doing it for the sake of having puppies? Breeding is done to improve the breed, how will your dogs contribute to making the breed better? If you were able to provide people with wonderful companions 25 years ago (before pet overpopulation got out of hand) why not do rescue and continue to provide people with wonderful companions who are going to die in a shelter. For each pup you sell an equal number of dogs will die in a shelter because no one wants them anymore (purebred Poodles included since 30% of dogs in shelters are purebred) and the pups you produce will also go on to produce their own pups and so on and so on. Give people in rescue a break and have your dogs spayed and neutered. BCKrazy is right, you can't register the puppies so what kind of papers will you be able to provide the buyers to guarantee, well anything? There are already enough "great pets" in this world so unless your dogs are the supreme example of what a Poodle should be:comfirmation, health, temperament, functionality, then there really is no reason to bring more unwanted "great pets" into this world.

If you are serious about breeding and want to do it the right way then you will seriously read through these links carefully. If you have to ask questions now, then now is not the time to breed.

http://www.geocities.com/virtualbreeding/

http://www.learntobreed.com/

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Fair/1901/chart.html

[finn's mom]

Originally posted by sue528
Hi All
As far as breeding toy to minature, my VET says that's fine
my male is 10 inches and my femaile is a small mini at 11 inches so I should be fine.

It will probably be fine, as far as the health of the puppies. That's not what the issue is, though. It's the fact that they will be considered a mixed breed. Because you are breeding two different kinds of poodles. At least, that's the understanding that I have. I don't have a problem with mutts, at all, I love them. I'm sure the puppies will be wonderful! I was just under the impression that you were wanting to breed pure bred dogs to be registered and what not. Maybe I misunderstood. Good luck, though, regardless.

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by Pit Chick
Breeding is done to improve the breed, how will your dogs contribute to making the breed better?

She won't contribute to making the breed better -- because she's not breeding a breed. She's breeding mutts. Only backyard breeders breed mutts.

There are enough breeds in the world without adding more. It's disgusting. If you cared about your breed you wouldn't be ruining it. Your VET sounds like he can't wait to get some new clients. I bet you can't wait to sell some puppies. It's all about money these days..

[Pit Chick]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
She won't contribute to making the breed better -- because she's not breeding a breed. She's breeding mutts. [B]

My point exactly. My questions require no answers, just thinking. ;)

I met this old looney guy in Petsmart one day that wanted to breed is smooth Chihuahua with his long haired Chi even though he knew they couldn't be registered, but he didn't care. :rolleyes:

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think Sue cares what we think or say as long as we give her the answer she was looking for, she's gonna breed no matter what.

If you don't rescue, don't breed.

[K9soul]

Originally posted by Pit Chick
I met this old looney guy in Petsmart one day that wanted to breed is smooth Chihuahua with his long haired Chi even though he knew they couldn't be registered, but he didn't care. :rolleyes:


I'm not getting involved in this thread as everything has been said and I feel Sue has made up her mind, but I wanted to comment on the chi situation. I'm certainly not condoning that guy breeding his chis as I know nothing about the situation, but I do know with collies, smooths and roughs can be bred. A smooth champ and a rough champ can be siblings. However I have no clue if long hair chis and smooth chis are the same or not.

[lv4dogs]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
She won't contribute to making the breed better -- because she's not breeding a breed. She's breeding mutts. Only backyard breeders breed mutts.

There are enough breeds in the world without adding more. It's disgusting. If you cared about your breed you wouldn't be ruining it. Your VET sounds like he can't wait to get some new clients. I bet you can't wait to sell some puppies. It's all about money these days..

Thats my understanding and unless I'm wrong then I couldn't agree more!

[Pit Chick]

Originally posted by K9soul
I'm not getting involved in this thread as everything has been said and I feel Sue has made up her mind, but I wanted to comment on the chi situation. I'm certainly not condoning that guy breeding his chis as I know nothing about the situation, but I do know with collies, smooths and roughs can be bred. A smooth champ and a rough champ can be siblings. However I have no clue if long hair chis and smooth chis are the same or not.

I'm sure they are the same, but for the guy to admit that he knew they couldn't be registered yet he still wanted to breed, that was just wrong. I would think mixing the two would result in Chis with out-of-standard coat types.

[vinjashira]

you won't get a mutt from breeding a toy poodle to a miniature poodle because they are the same breed only different size but I understand what the others are saying and they are quite right you won't be able to register the puppies and shouldn't be breeding those two.

short and long coated chihuahuas are considered different breeds in the UK and hence not interbred but I understand they are still interbred in the US and the two types of coats often appear in the same litter.

[Pam]

Sue, I went to the poodle forum where I am a member and where there are responsible and respected breeders and asked them some questions. Quite honestly, I thought that it is acceptable to breed a mini with a toy and that was my main reason for posting over there. I believe my Ashley (silver mini) had a silver toy for a father but I purchased her back in 1984 and my memory was a little cloudy. Trust me, Ashley came from a very respected reputable breeder and her dogs were shown all over the country and many, many were champions. Anyway, I asked the question about mating among toys and minis and here is one of the member's answers who has done breeding in the past: Well, she can breed a mini to a toy, and it will be a mini or a toy or both in same litter. As Poodle standard is same for toy, mini, standard- but for height.

The same member provided me with links to pass on for you. The feeling at that board was much the same as here. If you are not testing for genetics and not planning to show, there is no reason to breed. Too many little cuties in shelters already. Here are a couple of links that were provided:

http://www.vipoodle.org/shdbdpd.htm

and

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/breeding.htm

Lastly, if you decide against breeding please don't forget to spay and neuter your little ones. The incidence of breast cancer in unspayed females skyrockets. Also, one last suggestion (I hope I am not being too pushy) - why not adopt a poodle from your local shelter. I had been looking on Petfinder for quite some time for poodles after I bought my Bella, and I admit the ones available were either seniors or had some other problems. I found my Ripley quite by accident one day (I happened to be in the right place at the right time) and he is such a blessing to me. You will save some poor little soul and they pay you back with so much love. I do believe they know how lucky they are! Good luck and please do come back when you know how to post pictures. I'd love to see your cuties.

[vinjashira]

Originally posted by Pam
Anyway, I asked the question about mating among toys and minis and here is one of the member's answers who has done breeding in the past: Well, she can breed a mini to a toy, and it will be a mini or a toy or both in same litter. As Poodle standard is same for toy, mini, standard- but for height.

I stand corrected. Thank you Pam. I wonder if it's the same with Schanuzers and other breeds.

[finn's mom]

Originally posted by Pam
Quite honestly, I thought that it is acceptable to breed a mini with a toy and that was my main reason for posting over there.

Thank you for posting this. My apologies, Sue, I didn't realize that breeding a mini to a toy was acceptable. I hope you are able to get the appropriate tests done, though, and, good luck!

[lv4dogs]

Okay now that we know the facts, that they can be bred & registered than IF they clear ALL of the reccomended tests for that breed AND they are of GREAT quality, both conformation & behavior AND you have GREAT homes lined up then I see nothing wrong with it. After all if you follow all the gidelines you would be improving the breed.
Please do not breed until they clear all of the reccomended tests & they are over 2 years of age.