Serious behavior problem with Butter

[Logan]

I really need some one on one help from someone who has dealt with an unpredictable and aggressive cat. This is not about his behavior with me, which is good most of the time, and not so good at other times as you all know. This has to do with what he has started doing to Mimi and I am frankly quite scared about it. He could kill her if he wanted to. We know of two incidents so far where he literally "jumped" her, the second much worse than the first, and that one happened yesterday. Why in the world, after over 4 years of living with us, is he doing this? Does he detect a weakness in her that was not there before? She is old and she is slowing down............. :( :( :( Sallyanne, this reminds me so much of what you dealt with when you had Ti. I understand that situation even better now that I am dealing with it, too.

I have already consulted with my vet, today, as a matter of fact. I had Butter in because he has once again torn up his legs. :( I'll go through what Dr. Robinson had to say if one or more of you would be willing to talk me through this.

I want to talk with someone on the phone. If you think you can offer me some advice and wouldn't mind spending some time discussing this with me, please, please, please send me a PM with your phone number. I can call during the day or at night. I just need to do something soon and my options are very limited. :(

I am very upset about this, as is my husband. Right now, we are forcing one to be outside when the other is inside. I don't know what else to do, but long term, this is not a viable solution.

I'm sorry to make this private plea in such a public way, but I didn't know what else to do. Please send a good thought that Mimi will be safe and that I will find a way to deal with this boy, please.

Logan :(

[catnapper]

I am so sorry! I have no advice, but I hope somebody will know how to handle the situation. {{{HUGS}}} and good luck! I know somebody will be able to help!

[sasvermont]

Hi Logan.

What can I say. I think some animals can sense when another one is weak or has weaknesses. Ti was fine with Miley until she displayed some timidness, then it all began. Once Ti discovered her weird personality, he cashed in on it. Juni is doing the same thing with Miley now, but Juni is not as powerful as Ti was. Miley is really the problem. She is the one that submits to the aggression.

Anyway, right before I gave Ti away to a new and wonderful home, where he is matched with another strong male kitty, I had gotten in touch with a cat/animal behaviorist and had sceduled an appointment to have her come out and witness the behaviors. After all the vet bills etc. get Miley repaired, I decided to just rehome Ti and that Miley was more important to me than Ti. It was difficult, but I did it.

If your household is fine, except for Butter, then I would consider either having a behaviorist come out or giving Butter some drugs for awhile, to calm him down or maybe re-homing him.

Isn't it the worst thing in the world to witness? I was horrified each time I would see Ti go after Miley. Juni is less mean to Miley - but still gets her goat every chance she can. Miley runs and hides and Juni just keeps it up. Like I said, it is Miley with the issues.

[Logan]

Thank you for your input, Sallyanne. I thought of your situation immediately when this all started up. The one thing that is out of the question is rehoming Butter, though. Even if he was an only cat or had an equally strong fellow cat, he is a liability because of what he will do, without cause, to a human. :( If my children were any younger, I could not have him. Helen is the only one of the three that is even willing to get near him. He has never bitten her. I have personally spoken with every single neighbor on our street and forewarned them that no matter how nice he seems, that they need to not touch him. He truly is a liability. **sigh**

For all these years, as soon as Mimi would hiss at him, he would back away. He has always tried to get her to play with him, but she has always let him know that she will not. All of the sudden, just like you describe, he has realized that she can't do anything to him, and that's when these attacks started. He has not injured her, thank goodness. I can't believe I even thought of this, but I actually asked Dr. Robinson about declawing him this morning if that was my only option. He said that it wouldn't solve the problem. He is still bigger, stronger and those teeth alone are lethal. We did not talk about medicating him. Maybe that is a possibility.

I'm "thinking outloud" and would appreciate any constructive input from anyone who has ideas. You all know how I love that boy and 95% of the time, he is a social, fun boy. We really do love him. But if he were to injure 16 year old Mimi, it would kill my soul. I would never be able to forgive myself.

Logan

[NoahsMommy]

Logan,

I'm going to start making some notes of a few suggestions for when you call me later on. :)

Lots of hugs,
Kelly

[rosethecopycat]

I think an animal behaviorist would be of help.
(not an animal psychic:rolleyes: )

Try putting a bell on Butter. That will give Mimi warning as he approaches.
Also, try confusing thier scents by putting a drop or two of real vanilla at the base of thier tails. (on the top side, not by the butt)
It sounds like you have a potential 'pariah' cat situation.

I would have Mimi to the vet as well. I think that in the animal kingdom, they can smell weakness, through disease or injury.



Sorry, I can't be of more help.

That is a very scary scenario. After years of cohabitation.

[Vermontcat]

Logan, I'm so sorry to hear that Butter is being so mean to sweet Mimi.:(
I would keep them separated for now and try a behaviorist like Sallyanne said.
If Butter is not behaving by next week I could always give him or Mimi a ride to Vermont for a little vacation.;)
I will probably e-mail you later tonight, I'm on my way out the door to my daughter's riding lesson now. Hugs to you.

[catmandu]

I HAD THAT PROBLEM,WITH POUNCETTE,AS SHE WAS EXPECTING,AND LITERALLY,TORE INTO THE OTHER CATS.
I HAD,TO REHOME HER,AS SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN SUPER PROTECTIVE,OF HER KITTENS.
I AM SORRY,TO HEAR,THAT BUTTER,IS THAT AGRESSIVE,SOMETIMES THEY FIGHT,TO SEE WHO,GETS THE MOST LOVE,AND PETS,FROM THIER GUARDIANS.
MAYBE FELIWAY,CAN HELP.

I PRAY,THAT BUTTER,BECOMES HIS OLD SELF,SOON.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/catmandu/Picture462.jpg

[jenluckenbach]

I am SO sorry you are facing this. The only situation that I have experienced that is even remotely close to your situation is how foster Pumpkin bullies certain (but not all) of the other fosters.

At this point, the only thing I can suggest is medicine for Butter and hope that it works.

Best of luck! Keep us posted.

[momcat]

I'm so sorry to hear about your situation with Butter. Has your vet checked him to rule out a medical reason for his behavior?

[catland]

I'm so sorry about your situation.

I've been dealing with issues since we took in Strauss last January - he and Sid were getting into some bad fights, with Sid always being the loser.

So now I have a bell on Strauss's collar and I think its helping. He's a little less sure of himself now that he can't pounce on Sid unannounced.

I've also noticed that most of the jealousy occurs when we're in the room. Its like they are vying for attention. I started giving Strauss "time-outs" - locked in a back bedroom, when he got in one of these moods and it has helped also.

[Pam]

Oh Logan. :( I didn't realize this was going on and am so sorry to hear it. My first thought was that maybe Butter senses that Mimi is not well and is taking advantage of her. I really didn't even think that I would offer that up as a suggestion but when I read rosethecopycat's remarks I thought maybe it is worth pursuing.

Maybe she is just fine physically (I certainly hope so) and Butter is just sensing her slowing down and is throwing his weight around. I really have no thoughts that would be helpful but I just wanted you to know that I am worrying right along with you. Mimi has been a favorite of mine for years now; so beautiful, dignified and such a long time companion for you through all of your life challenges. I do hope there is an answer out there. If anyone can help you, PTers can. (((hugs)))

[Logan]

Pam, I think you and the others have probably hit the nail on the head about Mimi's slowing down and him finally realizing that she is "weak". She is due for her annual shots and checkup anyway, and I am going to call tomorrow morning and see if I can get her in to see Dr. Robinson on Friday and just have her completely checked, although with a 16 year old cat, it could likely just be the fact that she is slowing down. :(

By the way, for whoever suggested it, Butter does wear a bell, not only to protect the birds, but to protect Mimi, too. So we have that one covered. Thankfully, her hearing is very keen, still, so she does hear him coming. And all of this aggressive behavior is occuring when they are both outdoors, never inside the house. These cats are both a bit "aloof", not under our feet the way the dogs are, but both are quite social and like to be in the room where we are, but neither get that close to us, to tell you the truth, even when the other one is around.

I had a nice long talk with Kelly tonight, too. She has made some wonderful suggestions, as you all have. While we're checking out options, including medicating him, we're going to make a very strong effort to keep them seperated unless we're right there with them.

Keep the suggestions coming if you have them. I need all the help I can get. I know everyone "loves" Butter and he is a doll, most of the time, but I don't think I can properly describe what he is capable of with those teeth and claws. I had one of those "bad boy" tomcats (big, orange fellow) when I was growing up, and even he was nothing compared to this one. I told Kelly tonight that I can handle many bites and wounds to myself and just live with it, but in reality, other humans, including my children and my neighbor's children, are at risk and if any one of those people or Mimi were injured by him, I could never, ever forgive myself. :(

Logan

[rg_girlca]

The first thing that crossed my mind was what some others had already said. The fact that maybe Butter can detect that Mimi is not well.
I find that interesting though that all the aggression happens outside and not inside. Just guessing here, but, could it be a territorial thing?

I am so sorry that this has happened and it must be so frustrating not knowing why, especially having it happen after 4 years of them together.

I wish you all the best of luck with this complicated situation and that it can be resolved in some way.

((((((HUGS))))))

[krazyaboutkatz]

Logan, I'm so sorry to hear that Butter has become so aggressive towards Mimi.:( I think that you've been given a lot of wonderful advice and I hope that things will work out. Good luck and please keep us updated.

[sasvermont]

We all remember Gabe, right? The Ragdoll kitty that moved from NJ to VT one fine spring day? Well, Gabe was a terror from time to time when living in NJ with Robyn and then when he moved to VT he became a docile, cuddly guy EXCEPT when he didn't get his way when I tried to bring him back inside the house. He would turn in to a lunatic. He bit my arm once, leaving a nasty skin break.......now that I am thinking about this, HIS bad behavior was only while outside.

Once, my neighbor was doing gardening and Gabe walked over to her, sat beside her and then proceeded to bite her hand every time she moved it. I had to extract him from the area so that she could continue to garden.

I had one other cat that bit me often but didn't go after the other cat, just me!

I really would consider a behaviorist - I think it was going to cost me $75 for a visit....... and they look at both cats' behavior ..... maybe the will review the situation and then give Mimi a GUN!

[Barbara]

Didn't see this thread until now.

I am so sorry. I never had any experience with an aggressive cat, but of course these teeth could hurt poor Mimi seriously.

Tigris sometimes bullies Filou - but Filou gives back and fends for himself. I wonder whether that could change if (and when :() Filou grows weaker. Possibly yes.

Keeping you and sweet Mimi and my friend Butter in my thoughts.

[Logan]

Barbara, you don't know how badly I hated to post this message because I didn't want to diminish your precious Butter in your eyes. :o

I have watched him like a hawk the last couple of days. He has walked up to her, and never even batted an eye at her. No aggression at all. Wonder if his shot mellowed him out a bit! :confused:

We see Dr. Robinson with Mimi next week. I'll keep you posted.

Logan

[Rachel]

Originally posted by catland
I started giving Strauss "time-outs" - locked in a back bedroom, when he got in one of these moods and it has helped also.

I know nothing about cats, but this makes a lot of sense. Of course I don't want to be the one to pick up Butter, scold him and put him in time-out.

Another thing I thought of was that if Butter has met his match with an aggressive cat in an out of door encounter, he may just be taking the opportunity to *take it out* on someone else. Not that if this were the case, it in anyway helps to solve the problem.

Poor Mimi. She is such a sweetheart.

[Barbara]

Butter will always and furrever be my friend.

I have been talking to my co-worker Gudrun (3 cats, after one passed away last year). Gudrun says to her opinion it would be a classic case for Bach flowers (www.bachflower.com)

She has treated Lisa who used to beat up the others with these and it worked. If I understand her right then you must find the cause for Butter's behavior. Is it more in him or in Mimi because the Bach flowers you use depend on that.

She thinks very highly about this therapy and she is in general not the esoteric type. I however have no experience.

Of course it would be better if you found a vet who had experience with them.

Anyway I wanted to tell you about it.

[sasvermont]

Barb, I think I will put a few gallons of this item in the water cooler here at the office. Folks might just be more fun to work with after a few sips of the special water!

Rescue Remedy is popular here but I never had any luck with it with my cats.

JuniRose could use a little Rescue Remedy, I do believe!

[jazzcat]

Logan, I'm so sorry to hear you are saving so much trouble with Butter. I know how scary that can be. I've lived with Ripley - who used to be a holy terror. Luckily I was the only one he attacked. I think he picked on me because he was my first cat and I didn't know how to react when he would stalk and chased me. I always ran and sometime screamed which excited him more and he would attack, that was as a very young cat. My vet thought neutering him would take care of the problem but it didn't. He even ripped open a vet tech's arm when he was in to be neutered. After that they wouldn't take him out for exams without the full staff there, a towel over Ripley - give him his shots and then stick him back in the carrier. The way they weighed him was to do it with him in the carrier and then have me bring the carrier by empty to weigh and do the math.

My vet said he thought Ripley had Feline Rage and wanted to put him on female hormones. This was back in the early 90s before sedating them was more acceptable. He did improve with no meds a little but I lived with his violent attacks which often came out of the blue. That is why I didn't ever get another cat for 10 years. I was afraid Ripley would kill it. To my surprise he took bringing Jazz in well and the last attack I suffered was about two weeks before we adopted her. He's never tried since.

I know this doesn't help you much but I wanted to share that one thing I did when he attacked was to put him in a room (usually the garage) to calm down. If my husband was around he would help pull Ripley off me and put him out there. Also, I discovered Ripley hated getting wet so I could spit on him to get him to release his bite on me. For a while I always carried a little spray gun on my belt. Sad I know.

I really feel for you. I was fortunate that Ripley never hurt another animal or human, just me. He's so big and strong it could be bad. He and I have a love/hate relationship but when it comes down to it I do love him I just hate the fear he put in me and the scars he left all over my body.

I hope you can get this worked out. I'm lucky that Rip is over 13 years old and just doesn't have it in him anymore.

[lizbud]

Logan,

I just now saw this thread. I'm sorry to hear about this new
aggression by Butter. Did you say that it happened more when
they are both outside? If Mimi checks out o k at the Vets, I would
consider having Butter checked out as well. I wish you luck with
this.:)

[Catsnclay]

Originally posted by Logan
Wonder if his shot mellowed him out a bit! :confused:



WHAT kind of a shot did the doctor give Butter? Have you tried the Feliway difusers?

Lucky bullies Fluffy a lot, but I atribute it to Fluffy getting older. Cats do sense sickness well before we do. Also when Lucky was sick he got a LOT of attention from Tim & I, and now when Fluffy comes to sit with Lucky & I, Lucky gets jealous. We quickly put a stop to all that with a firm "NO!!!" and Lucky backs down instantly.

Maybe Butter needs some Kitty Prosac :confused:

[momcat]

Hey, Logan! How is Butter doing?

[Barbara]

Yeah, I want to know too. I heard he behaved when Vermontcat was over but every nawtee kid is better when the auntie is visiting (at least we were when we were kids ;)):

[auggie]

Logan, what Rachel said makes a lot of sense.
That would explain why he only does it outside.
I hope he’s come down some. Poor Mimi! Give her some extra hugs from me.

[ramanth]

Just thinking about you, Butter, and Mimi.

Zam sometimes bullies Logan, but it's never been bad thankfully.

How are the kids?

[Logan]

Everyone is healthy. Whew! Sorry I didn't update this thread sooner, but I've been watching to see how he was acting. Ever since I wrote this post, he has been an angel, and has only bitten me once! That's the reason I'm wondering if he acted that way because of his skin being so messed up and uncomfortable. I sure do wish they could talk to us!

Whomever asked about the shot, it was cortisone and antibiotics to help him heal and eliminate the inflammation of his skin. He is taking a daily tablet now (not steroids) to see if it will help to keep this skin situation under control. So far, so good.

Of course it could be our extreme heat that is making him lethargic. We are still keeping them seperated when we are not outdoors with them, just to make sure Mimi is protected. We've even caught them sitting within a foot of each other in the past week. Go figure!!! :rolleyes: No telling what drives that silly boy.

Thanks for your concern. I'll keep you posted.

Logan

[Barbara]

Oh that's anyway good news:)

I hope it was poor Butter itching and all. (I must admit that Tigris can be so moody- you frustrate him -by maybe not giving him a treat when he wants one- and he goes over and attacks Filou).

Maori kisses to Butter and headscritchies for Mimi:)