Do you think dogs can feel guilty ?

[ilovehounds]

I got a news letter today saying that although we think our dogs feel guilty, they don't have the ability to.

I think that everytime Hannah and Copper do something they shouldn't have done they feel guilty. I know Hannah has done something wrong even befor I find the chewed up slipper or box of kleenex. She gets this really sad look on her face and she hangs her ears real low and walks around the house very slowly, then I know I better go look around and see what she has gotten into.

What do you think do your dogs feel guilty when they do something bad ???

[Pam]

Yes I think dogs do feel guilty. My other dogs (RB) often gave themselves away when they had done something naughty, just as you related, by their mannerisms and body language. My Bella is now 13 months old and, though she knows when she has done something wrong, shows no signs of guilt or remorse. :) She is often quite pleased with herself for getting my attention even though in a negative way! :rolleyes:

[sabies]

I think it's similar to a child - like when I was 3 I'm sure I did things that I knew would get a bad reaction and I looked guilty but didn't feel guilty only cause I didn't know what guilty was and didn't have the experience to interpret my feelings or the ability to voice my feelings.

I think dogs have similar feelings to humans including guilt, they just don't really know what they're feeling or why they're feeling it.

[carrie]

I'm afraid that people have the habit of interpreting their dogs body language as if the dog was a human.
The dog may know that it has done something wrong but it is not showing guilt. It is trying to appease you by showing submission in an effort to avoid punishment or dissaproval. Guilt implies that it is regretful or sorry for it's actions. It is simply trying to avoid puishment. An interesting point is that very often the dog will not actually remember the exact action that it thinks will bring punishment or dissaproval. It is likely that after the "naughty" deed a feeling of fear was experienced and it is that feeling the dog shows - not regret for what it has done.

[purrley]

:D Makes sense to me Carrie - I know if I catch my dog in the act of stealing something off the table, she cringes like she knows she's going to get yelled at - where if she's already stolen it and has it on the floor - she acts like she did nothing wrong.:)

[sabies]

Isn't that how humans develop feelings though? Dogs just don't have the ability to develop feelings the way humans do, I think it all depends on how you define feelings.

If I honestly think about it, I'm not sure when I really feel guilty rather than just trying to avoid avoid punishment or dissaproval. The guilt feeling comes from me disapproving of my own behavior, just an advanced version of basic "feelings".

[carrie]

But that is the difference - dogs do not have the ability to go further than appeasement to avoid the punishment.
I agree that often people feel that too but you have a very clear idea of why the punishment is forthcoming and why the action was wrong in the first place. These things are denied dogs.
Also if your dog is destructive or messes in the house on a regular basis then the dog is showing you submissive behaviour IN CASE this time you are going to be mad, shout or punish. It has no idea why sometimes you do and sometimes you don't - just that it is a possibility when you come home. It has no idea what makes the difference and does not associate what it did two hours before with your reaction when entering the house.

[ilovehounds]

I don't know I like to think of my babies as humans so I like to think that they have human feelings. No one will ever know what goes through a dogs head :rolleyes: sometimes I wish i knew :)

I don't yell at Hannah when she rips up a box of kleenex I just say, "Hannah you know better" but everyonce in a while she'll do it and then come out of the room looking "guilty" and I know whats she has done.

Dogs you gotta love em :D

[Cincy'sMom]

I can tell if Sadie has been bad during the day by the way she greets me at the door. If her ears are back and she sits and waits while I come I know she has done something she shouldn't have. Otherwise she is rubbing up against my legs and trying to see if I will let her jump on me (a habit we are trying to break)

Cincy is still kenneled during the day, but if she digs in the yard and you call her over toyou she comes very slwoly, with her head down.

Both girls try to give kisses and snuggle to apoligize

[ShepherdLover]

Yes I do. Iris knows when she's bad. You can tell by the look on her face. She knows she's done wrong.

[carrie]

Dogs pick up on your body language a lot more - a lOT more - than you think.
Your dog has an idea that it may be punished - not that it has done something wrong.
The feeling of fear that it experienced after doing something it shouldn't have stays with the dog, not the memory of what it did wrong. So, while it knows that punishment is likely, it does not remember the action that caused the fear and therefore what the anger or punishment is for. The dog can not feel guilty for the action.

Scientifically this can be proved....
A dog that is house trained when the owner is at home but messes when left for more than two hours (20 dogs were studided and all exhibited the same behaviour) will act "guilty" when the owner returns.
If half the dogs are taken into the room where they have messed and half are taken into a different room (controlled by only having access to one room other than the living room) all show the same behaviour. The dogs taken to the room they haven't messed in still act "guilty".
Take this a step further and admonish verbally the "guilty" looking dog - it will make no difference if the punishment is given in the clean room or the dirty room. The dog accepts the punishment, clearly not understanding what it is for and waits for the owner to become friendly again before losing the "guilty"look.
It is simply a reaction to fear and percieved status.

If the human really thinks the dog is displaying guilt there is a real danger that the dog will never learn exactly what is right and wrong. It is also highly confusing for the dog to be recognised instantly the owner comes home ( a respectful gesture from the owner towards a higher ranking dog) and then that recognition turning into dissaproval. The dog doesn't know why the dissaproval is apparent but is further confused by the conflicting signals of being treated as Alpha one second and omega the next.

Sorry - I'm going on rather a LOT on this one, had you noticed??

Oh, you had..........ummmm

[lizbud]

Carrie, I agree that a dog cannot make the leap of
logic needed to connect the 'act' with 'consequences'
for them.. but I think your advice of not giving a dog
your immediate attention upon entering the house
to be a great piece of advise ... I've been doing this
as you suggested and find it can set the 'tone' for
the rest of the evening in our interactions with each
other. Thanks. Liz.

[carrie]

Thanks Lizbud,
It is not only a question of belief but a question of nature and of ethics. Is there any point in responding to a cow the same way you would respond to a hamster?
Would you expect a two year old human to react to you as a two year old horse?
Can you think of a twenty year old crocodile or cat thinking the same way as an adult human? Or even the same as each other?
It is ridiculous.

Can a dog then think of human emotions? No, but can certainly perceive them.
Does a dog have emotions? Yes.
Are human emotions the same as dog emotions? No, they are not. The dogs emotions are no less important, in my view, but not the same. Dogs have different values, social structure and emotional values. That does not make them less valid - just different.
Can a dog feel guilt? - No.

[sabies]

I agree Carrie, the fact that a dog cannot develop it's feelings the way humans makes a very big difference. I just think that there are similarities - like the feelings that we develop into and define as guilt are similar on a basic level. I know my dog looks guilty sometimes when really she did nothing - she just thinks she did something I will not like, she really has no understanding of what actions are wrong.

It's hard not to see human like emotions in our furry creatures but when it comes to dealing with a behavior issue we must think in terms of dog values and dog social structure to get results, and thank god you do know a lot about how dogs see the world Carrie because your advice WORKS!

[Logan]

I believe that most of us are "guilty" of thinking that our dogs think like we do! I am guilty, for sure!!!!

And when I see Lilly or Honey slump towards me, tail between the legs, I definitely see "guilt"......

Logan

[felinequine]

I'm sorry if nobody else agrees, but I think Daphne is guilty about things she does..And if you don't agree, I'm not a behaviourist...:confused: :confused:

[momoffuzzyfaces]

If dogs don't feel guilty, some of them should get academy awards for some of the performances I've seen. :)

[C.C.'s Mom]

Even though I've read Carries words.... I'm also one of those who see human expressions and emotions in my pets.

One look in The Cook's eyes after eating the Forbidden Catfood...... yep: guilty!
But, she can also give me that look when I ask her something to do. So I have to agree on momoffuzzyfaces, she's quite an actress!

[lizbud]

Hey Guys,

The ' look' humans interpret as guilt, is not that at
all to a dog. Dogs have no concept of right & wrong
as humans think of it.. They know immediately when
you are displeased with them and act appropriately
submissive, but will go ahead and do the very same
action which brought on the disapproval , the next
chance they get. They do what feels good & right for
them at the time, but they do not feel bad all afternoon
while awaiting their people to come home and find
the 'bad' deed. Yes they have what humans call a
look of guilt, but they do not experience it in the way
we think of it. Does that make any sense to you ?
What I'm trying to say is dogs are not capable of
abstract thought processes.

[carrie]

Here is a classic example of humans misinterpreting animal expressions and body language.

Most if us have seen pictures of captive chimps that have been trained to smile on command. Circus chimps, film chimps and those used in T.V. We tend to accept the big grin as a sign that the animal is feeling secure and is happy enough.
The big toothy grin is, however, how a chimp shows that it is feeling fear - a fear face.
Once trained it does not mean that every time the chimp displays this expression it is fearful, just like a dog can be trained to limp when there is nothing wrong with it. It does show that while the expression is very similar to a human one the meaning behind it is very different indeed.

[MichelleN]

I agree that dogs don't "feel" the emotion but I have a question. My boys are rescues so I have no idea how they were being treated 6 months ago. However, in the house, they are usually brought in and told to lie down on the rugs (they would much rather be under our feet and sometimes we let them). When Digby comes inside, he usually has a "wary" head-down look on his face. Do you think that he was yelled at by the previous owner when he came inside, or is he reacting to our usual command to lie down? Is he just being submissive?

Ah, confusing creatures!!

[ilovehounds]

All very very very good points ! But I still think they feel guilty, sad, happy, excited, depressed, embarassed ........... they are my babies and I love them very much and treat them like a child so I feel they can feel the same as a child can ???? Call me crazy everyone does ...lol..

[lizbud]

ilovehounds,

I would never call you crazy. Most people in
fact tend to anthromorphize their pets.Dogs &
cats can feel many of the same emotions as us.
They feel pain, fear,hunger,happiness,joy,& can
be excited or depressed, but not guilty or
embarrassed. Only humans do, and only humans
need to ... Hug Hannah & Copper for me. Liz.

[sweet_stormy]

Yes, I think dogs can feel guilty. When my mom yells or something Snowball will go hide under the end table in my living room or under the computer desk. Or if she takes something and we tell her not to do it again she puts her head down low and her ears go down lower too. Today my dog Snowball took a plastic thing of flowers and it was in her mouth. I said "Looks like Snowball wants to get married." and my brother Nick said to Snowball "Who's the special dog Snowball?". I just laughed.:)

[LoudLou]

Originally posted by ilovehounds
All very very very good points ! But I still think they feel guilty, sad, happy, excited, depressed, embarassed ........... they are my babies and I love them very much and treat them like a child so I feel they can feel the same as a child can ???? Call me crazy everyone does ...lol..

Then we will both be crazy. I feel the same way.;)

[lizbud]

Just want to say how much I've enjoyed reading
everyone's thoughts and feelings about this subject.

Thanks ilovehounds ,for posing the question...

All the discussion reminds me of a quote and riddle
posed by Abraham Lincoln that says;
"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg ?
Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg ."