Hypocrisy Most Holy

[Pam]

I just received this in an e-mail. Keep in mind, I don't believe everything I receive in my e-mails but if this has a shred of truth to it, I find it the height of hypocrisy and disgusting. I guess I am posting it here because I am tired of our military being bashed. Read it an evaluate it for yourself.

Hypocrisy Most Holy

By ALI AL-AHMED
2005 - WSJ Opinion Journal

With the revelation that a copy of the Quran may have been desecrated by
U.S. military personnel at Guantanamo Bay, Muslims and their governments
-- including that of Saudi Arabia -- reacted angrily. This anger would have
been understandable if the U.S. government's adopted policy was to desecrate
our Quran. But even before the Newsweek report was discredited, that was
never part of the allegations.

As a Muslim, I am able to purchase copies of the Quran in any bookstore
in any American city, and study its contents in countless American
universities. American museums spend millions to exhibit and celebrate
Muslim arts and heritage. On the other hand, my Christian and other
non-Muslim brothers and sisters in Saudi Arabia -- where I come from -- are
not even allowed to own a copy of their holy books. Indeed, the Saudi
government desecrates and burns Bibles that its security forces confiscate
at immigration points into the kingdom or during raids on Christian
expatriates worshiping privately.

Soon after Newsweek published an account, later retracted, of an American
soldier flushing a copy of the Quran down the toilet, the Saudi government
voiced its strenuous disapproval. More specifically, the Saudi Embassy in
Washington expressed "great concern" and urged the U.S. to "conduct a
quick investigation."

Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Quran dozens of
times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia. This would seem curious to most
people because of the fact that to most Muslims, the Bible is a holy book.
But when it comes to Saudi Arabia we are not talking about most Muslims,
but a tiny minority of hard-liners who constitute the Wahhabi Sect.

The Bible in Saudi Arabia may get a person killed, arrested, or deported. In
September 1993, Sadeq Mallallah, 23, was beheaded in Qateef on a charge
of apostasy for owning a Bible. The State Department's annual human rights
reports detail the arrest and deportation of many Christian worshipers every
year. Just days before Crown Prince Abdullah met President Bush last month,
two Christian gatherings were stormed in Riyadh. Bibles and crosses were
confiscated, and will be incinerated. (The Saudi government does not even
spare the Quran from desecration. On Oct. 14, 2004, dozens of Saudi men and
women carried copies of the Quran as they protested in support of reformers
in the capital, Riyadh. Although they carried the Qurans in part to protect
themselves from assault by police, they were charged by hundreds of riot
police, who stepped on the books with their shoes, according to one of
the protesters.)

As Muslims, we have not been as generous as our Christian and Jewish
counterparts in respecting others' holy books and religious symbols. Saudi
Arabia bans the importation or the display of crosses, Stars of David or any
other religious symbols not approved by the Wahhabi establishment. TV
programs that show Christian clergymen, crosses or Stars of David are
censored.

The desecration of religious texts and symbols and intolerance of varying
religious viewpoints and beliefs have been issues of some controversy inside
Saudi Arabia. Ruled by a Wahhabi theocracy, the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia
have made it difficult for Christians, Jews, Hindus and others, as well
as dissenting sects of Islam, to visibly coexist inside the kingdom.

Another way in which religious and cultural issues are becoming more
divisive is the Saudi treatment of Americans who are living in that country:
Around 30,000 live and work in various parts of Saudi Arabia. These people
are not allowed to celebrate their religious or even secular holidays. These
include Christmas and Easter, but also Thanksgiving. All other Gulf states
allow non-Islamic holidays to be celebrated.

The Saudi Embassy and other Saudi organizations in Washington have
distributed hundreds of thousands of Qurans and many more Muslim books, some
that have libeled Christians, Jews and others as pigs and monkeys. In Saudi
school curricula, Jews and Christians are considered deviants and eternal
enemies. By contrast, Muslim communities in the West are the first to admit
that Western countries -- especially the U.S. -- provide Muslims the
strongest freedoms and protections that allow Islam to thrive in the West.
Meanwhile Christianity and Judaism, both indigenous to the Middle East,
are maligned through systematic hostility by Middle Eastern governments and
their religious apparatuses.

The lesson here is simple: If Muslims wish other religions to respect
their beliefs and their Holy book, they should lead by example.

Mr. al-Ahmed is director of the Saudi Institute in Washington

[DJFyrewolf36]

Relgion founded hypocracy unfortuneatly. Everyone is obsessed about being right. I think its more out of fear than anything else.

Good post, long time no see ;) *I have been kind of out of it as of late though*

[lizbud]

According to what I've read about Saudi Arabia, religious
tolerence is not one of their virtues. It should be one of ours.

The central institution of Saudi Arabian Government is the monarchy. The Basic Law adopted in 1992 declared that Saudi Arabia is a monarchy ruled by the sons and grandsons of King Abd Al Aziz Al Saud, and that the Holy Qur'an is the constitution of the country, which is governed on the basis of Islamic law (Shari'a). There are no recognized political parties or national elections. The king's powers are theoretically limited within the bounds of Shari'a and other Saudi traditions. He also must retain a consensus of the Saudi royal family, religious leaders (ulema), and other important elements in Saudi society. The state's ideology is the Wahhabism. This flavour of Islam spreads further by funding construction of mosques and Qur'an schools around the world. The leading members of the royal family choose the king from among themselves with the subsequent approval of the ulema.

Saudi kings gradually have developed a central government. Since 1953, the Council of Ministers, appointed by and responsible to the king, has advised on the formulation of general policy and directed the activities of the growing bureaucracy. This council consists of a prime minister, the first and second deputy prime ministers, 20 ministers (of whom the minister of defense also is the second deputy prime minister), two ministers of state, and a small number of advisers and heads of major autonomous organizations.

Legislation is by resolution of the Council of Ministers, ratified by royal decree, and must be compatible with the Shari'a. Justice is administered according to the Shari'a by a system of religious courts whose judges are appointed by the king on the recommendation of the Supreme Judicial Council, composed of 12 senior jurists. The independence of the judiciary is protected by law. The king acts as the highest court of appeal and has the power to pardon. The country is in state of war with Israel since 1948. Access to high officials (usually at a majlis, or public audience) and the right to petition them directly are well-established traditions.

The formation of political parties is forbbiden, and no national elections take place.

Saudi courts continue to impose corporal punishment, including amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and floggings for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. The number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and varied according to the discretion of judges, and range from dozens of lashes to several thousand, usually applied over a period of weeks or months.

In 2002, the United Nations Committee against Torture criticised Saudi Arabia over the amputations and floggings it carries out under Sharia Islamic law. The Saudi delegation responded defending "legal traditions" held since the inception of Islam 1400 years ago and rejected interference in its legal system. (Source: BBC, see [1] (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=saudi+torture&btnG=Google+Search))

By western standards, Saudi women face severe discrimination in all aspects of their lives, including the family, education, employment, and the justice system. Religious police enforces a modesty code of dress and institutions from schools to ministries are gender-segregated.

[smokey the elder]

From my albeit miniscule knowledge of Islam, Wahhabism does not seem consistent with the Islam that the handful of Muslims I have known practice. Such an extreme form would seem to be incompatible with life in the USA. Many Muslims live in the USA, and I would hazard that most don't practice Wahhabism.

[popcornbird]

Okay...here I come. As a Muslim, I feel compelled to respond to this thread.

FIRST...regarding Wahabis, the TRUE Islam sent by God does NOT have any sects. Wahabis, Shiites, Sufis....all of these 'groups' are baseless and were made later on. There is nothing in the Quran that would support or even encourage these 'groups', and most Muslims I know, like myself, do not consider themselves a part of any stupid group or organization.

SECOND...If you read the Quran, you will see that in MANY places, God speaks to the Jews and Christians, referring to them as, "Oh People of the Book." People of the BOOK, because Jews and Christians were the followers of the previous books sent by God. So the reason God refers to them as the 'people of the book' is BECAUSE God DID reveal the Torah and the Bible to Prophet Moses and Jesus, and as Muslims, we do believe in that. If we don't believe that what God sent to Moses and Jesus and ALL of the Prophets mentioned in the holy books was the truth, then we're not Muslims to begin with. We do not believe the One God sent many different religions to mankind. How does that make sense anyway? God created all of mankind, and obviously, the guidelines He wants us ALL to live by are the same. ALL of the Prophets He sent, according to our beliefs, brought the exact same message, and if the Jews today followed the EXACT teachings brought by Prophet Moses....if Christians today followed the EXACT teachings brought by Jesus, and if Muslims today followed the EXACT teachings brought by Prophet Muhammad, we would ALL be the followers of EXACTLY the same thing. The reason things are so different now is because the Bible is not completely in its 'original form' now. What I mean by that is we believe in what God revealed to Jesus, at that time, but people have changed things now, and it no longer remains exactly the same as it was at that time. People change....people bring changes, but God remains the One and same, and His expectations from us won't ever change no matter what century we live in. So I guess my point is, no TRUE Muslim would ever...EVER disrespect the Bible or Torah in this SICKENING way that the troops abused the Quran in. Islam does not teach disrespect.

THIRD...Comparing the United States to Saudi Arabia is like comparing a mango to a bean. In other words, there is no comparison. The Saudi government is an oppressive monarchy, and while I don't know the truth of them abusing Christians/the Bible, I *DO* know that they abuse their OWN MUSLIM PEOPLE. So if they don't give Christians living in their country certain rights, its not like they are giving Muslims living in their country the rights they deserve either. The US on the other hand guarantees the freedom of religion to ALL people living here, and this is something that is in our Constitution. To guarantee freedom of religion to EVERYONE, and then go against it. If you can call anything hypocricy, a US soldier flushing a Quran down the toilet :mad:, is just that. To think that our country's soldiers are justified when they sexually and so disgustingly abuse prisoners...to think they are justified when they abuse God's Books...well...Its surprising that ANY American that stands on liberty and justice for ALL would ever justify them or ANYONE else for those actions.

Does the Muslim WORLD abuse the Bible? Do the 1.4 billion Muslims in the world all abuse the Bible that they should be accused of hypocrisy? I have been to MANY Muslim countries, and was surprised at the fact that when I stay in their hotels, they have a copy of the Bible sitting in the drawers, but no Quran. How nice. And I was also surprised to see Christmas trees all over the airport and malls in Dubai when I went there once in December. Yep...Muslims are hypocrites cause they abuse Christians in their countries. :rolleyes: That is generalizing 1/4th of the ENTIRE world population. We are not a 'few' people here and there on the planet. We make up for 1/4th of the entire world. There are almost as many Muslims in this world as Christians at this point. I want to know how many of those Muslims have EVER shown any disrespect to the Bible. If any, very few, and again, it is the PEOPLE who do wrong things, and NOT the religion that teaches or encourages wrong. There are good and bad people in every race, in every country, in every religion, and I am SICK.....absolutely SICK of people making all Muslims the 'bad ones' ALL the time. What is so 'bad' about all 1.4 billion of us? What has the 'average' Muslim ever done against anyone? NOTHING. A Muslim is one who submits to God Almighty, and worships Him. A Muslim is one who faithfully follows the religion of Prophet Abraham. Is that a bad thing? I think not. As a Muslim, I wish to get the same respect I give other people.

Wrong doings cannot and should not be justified, no matter how dear the person committing wrong may be to you. Wrong doings are wrong, and when one commits wrong, he/she should be condemned no matter who it is. Whether it is a Jew, or Christian, or Muslim, or troop, or civilian, or government official, or anyone else, if someone is doing something so wrong, it needs to be condemned, and not justified by, "Well such and such did the same thing." The Saudi government is an oppressive monarchy, that doesn't give full rights to anyone living in their land, no matter who they are. They never claimed to give freedom, and they do not. No they are NOT justified...they're in fact one of my most hated governments in the world, but, you cannot compare them to the US. The US guarantees freedom of religion to all people. TO have the US do this.......THAT is hypocrisy. What the troops did to the Quran is completely unacceptable. It makes me furious. Just because they're troops, that does NOT justify them. If the troops of any country....ANY country committed the same actions towards the Bible, I would be the first to condem them. God doesn't give troops any special favors. He will treat us ALL as equals, and judge us all according to our deeds, and not our 'status'. Would Jesus justify those actions? Would he? Honestly? No. He never would, and you all KNOW he wouldn't. So anyone who claims to love God and Jesus shouldn't either.

Now...about the Saudi government again. Do you know who considers them his 'best friends'? Yep...our president. And you know what else I see as hypocrisy? Going to war against a country claiming to 'save their people' from an 'evil dictator', and then treating that dictator to all the Doritos in the world after capturing him. WHY isn't he being punished while innocent children continue to die? Why does it seem that he's being treated so well? I want to know that too.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/21/saddam.guards.ap/index.html

Hypocrisy...Something that is very easy to accuse other people of. People are just idiots.

I am so glad that I grew up in the US, while being able to visit the East at the same time. I've been able to see people of both societies, and that opens my mind to so much. It gave me a good perspective of both sides, and how and why people think the way they do on both sides. I can see that people in the Eastern part of the globe are so much against the West because they know nothing about it. I also see that people in the US have a problem with Islam because they too, are CLUELESS about it. People need to educate themselves ACCURATELY, and learn to stop judging others when they know nothing about them. Ignorance is a disease, and unfortunately, most people in this world so ignorantly pass judgements on other people without having a clue of what they're talking about. The hatred in this world is all caused by ignorance, and fed by the crazy media in all parts of the world. People need to wake up and see what's right and wrong for themselves.

And I will end my post with this verse from the Quran...

Quran; 2:136. Say: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow down to God in submission."

That is what all true Muslims believe in, and true Muslims do NOT abuse the books of other nations. Only a person who has no shame, no dignity, and no respect would do such a thing to anyone.

Sorry for making it so long.

[smokey the elder]

Thanks for this! I absolutely did not intend to make out *all* Muslims as hypocrites or cast any disrespect on your fatih. The stuff you said about absence of sects is one of the things that I actually remembered about the religion, as well as the People of the Book part.

Let's face it, the world has dirtbags of all stripes. No one group has a monopoly on them. We will only evolve as human beings when we stop all this stuff.

[Lady's Human]

When Desert Shield started, and troops started pouring into the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to bail their tails out of the fire, the Bible was initially on the list of items forbidden. After much politicking, troops were allowed to carry small personal bibles, but were ordered not to leave them out as it would be an offense against the laws of the kingdom. Female troops were under severe restrictions as to what they could do on base (no working in just T-shirt, etc) and were initially not allowed off base at all. Saudi Arabia regards US civilians and personnel who are not muslim as third rate people at best.

The US Soldiers who committed the abuses in Abu Ghirab were not the norm, they were flagrantly disobeying orders and taking advantage of a lax/nonexistent chain of command.

WHile all Muslims I have had the pleasure of serving with in the military denounce radical fundementalist Islam, you cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that the sects exist, and are the major reason for the current war we are fighting against terrorists.

[Pam]

Pops, I am glad you weighed in. I think this is the crux of the matter in a nutshell:

Soon after Newsweek published an account, later retracted, of an American
soldier flushing a copy of the Quran down the toilet, the Saudi government
voiced its strenuous disapproval. More specifically, the Saudi Embassy in
Washington expressed "great concern" and urged the U.S. to "conduct a
quick investigation."

Therein lies the hypocrisy when one reads further what that government is/has been doing. I was unaware of the Wahabis and what they stand for and the article was illuminating for me. If the desecration of the Quran had been true, it was the act of one man and I think it unfair to judge the entire military or an entire country on the actions of one man and our media here in the US did not downplay it.

I think that most people realize that there are bad Muslims and good Muslims as there are bad Christians and bad Jews, etc. By that I mean imposters who are religious in name only and what they practice has no resemblance to what their religion teaches. Jesus called them whitewashed sepulches - clean on the outside but decaying on the inside. I just find it so hard to see the US blasted and our troops blasted when we live in a country where we do have freedom and our sons and daughters are fighting and dying. So many people seem to forget that the freedom we take for granted is not realized in other countries.

My only disagreement with your post is this:
if Christians today followed the EXACT teachings brought by Jesus, and if Muslims today followed the EXACT teachings brought by Prophet Muhammad, we would ALL be the followers of EXACTLY the same thing.

In essence the teachings may be similar however those of us who are Christians believe that Jesus is God and therefore cannot be considered just a teacher. He is the One sent by God to atone for the sins of humanity.

To further expand on what I just wrote, I feel it speaks to your statement in italics below. We do not believe anything was revealed to Jesus by God, as He is God.

the Bible is not completely in its 'original form' now. What I mean by that is we believe in what God revealed to Jesus, at that time, but people have changed things now, and it no longer remains exactly the same

Jesus said He is the same yesterday, today and forever. His sacrifice was once and for all and available to all who will believe.

Pops, I am definitely not disagreeing with you on most of what you have said. I am happy to be acquainted with such a bright Muslim as yourself and I think that many of us here at PT wouldn't have much of a clue about your religion if you did not post in these threads like you do. I appreciate your feedback and really do respect you. :)

Please don't think that I started this thread to incite anything. I was simply amazed and appalled at what I read and hoped to have some good, unemotional dialog regarding it. Lizbud I appreciate your post also. How in the world can we respect each other if we can't talk and learn from each other? We may not agree wholeheartedly with another's religion but surely we must respect their right to embrace it.

[DJFyrewolf36]

Well said PCB. I find myself in agreement with you. Every nation, every religion is full of hypocrites. Hypocracy is part of the human condtion, and the act of complaining about it is sometimes concidered hypicritical. Pointing fingers only makes the situation worse.

I am really enjoying this thread, it's a great discussion to listen in on :)

[caseysmom]

PCB, I enjoy your posts very much, you are a very intelligent young woman. I agree with what you are saying, many of those things are the reason I am so turned off by organized religion.

I think every countries people should travel often to see the other side. I have traveled to the middle east and met the most welcoming lovely people I have ever met, and yes they knew I was christian.