Demodex

[Spiritwind]

Ok.... just looking for some other options... this might end up a rather long post....

But I have a young (uner 1yr old) Collie who has Demodex. I have NEVER had a problem with this stuff before in any of the years I've had Collies, and she is from the same basic bloodlines all my dogs have been from...

Anyway, about a month ago she had a small hairless area of fur on her chin. I let it go, think, ok... IF it is demodex give it some time, it'll clear up. Well it wasn't getting any better... so about 2 wks later I got some Goodwinol ointment to start putting on her chin, this was recommended to me by a breeder friend of mine.... well it seemed to help some, but really very little...

Now a few weeks into it, the spot has grown, but its still not off her chin.... and doesn't cover the whole chin, really is the back part of her bottom jaw.... the skin was looking better, more pink, instead of red and irritated. It also seems itchy at times... I was hoping this would go away on its own, and she would be fine...

Well last Saturday I checked the area, and now all the sudden there are scabs/crusty areas just below the hairless area.... I work for a vet, so on Tuesday when I went to work I took my pup in with me.... When my vet saw it she thought at first it looked like a allergic reaction or a giant hot spot ready to go crazy.... at the end of the day we did a skin scrapping on her, and while there weren't HUGE amounts of demodex mites, there were several on the slide.... and by this time the scabs and crusty area has really gotten bad (though not hairless).... thinking like a secondary skin infection..... because at how fast this scabbed and crusty area appeared, she was put on Antibiotics.

Of course being a Collie she can not have Ivermectin to treat this..... and according to to Washington State University site who did the Ivermectin sensitivity tests (and developed the DNA test for this) high doses of Interceptor can be just has toxic has Ivermectin.... so daily interceptor does not seem to be an option.....

I'm thinking Mitaban might be the only option for her... though when talking to my vet, since she isn't getting other spots on her body, but this one spot is not getting much better..... we could just apply the mitaban to the spot of demodex rather than doing a full body dip.... I have just read this stuff isn't the safest thing in the world....

As for the immune system, I'm not sure what to think.... I'm thinking its part stress (we have been hitting dog shows fairly hard this past month - lots of traveling and grooming - though she loves to show) and she is 8 1/2 months old... she eats a quality dog food (Canidae) gets Nupro supplement and a 4-1 Probiotic supplement....

Any other ideas or suggestions, from people who have experience with Demodex, on what to try on this girl would be greatly apprecenated.... like I said before I have NEVER had a dog get this before, never.... and I am not happy about this spot!!.... I have a picture of it I will try to post.... the picture isn't all that great though.. but the skin is actually starting to look better.... just after antibiotics. Not as red or irritated... so I'm just not sure what to think..... other opinions would be great..

Thanks!!

[RobiLee]

Hello Spiritwind...is it Janna?

I don't have any helpful information. I just saw your name and had to stop by. I hope that someone here has some good advice for you. Maybe Aly will.

I got a bit excited when I saw your name on the board..lol. I visit your website from time to time to look at your beautiful dogs. I've always loved them. I'm sorry to see that one of them is having a problem. Which girl is it? Is it Paris? Well, I just wanted to say hi and I hope you can get some help.

All my best....Robin :)

[dragondawg]

Did you have the genetic test performed to for the presence of the MDR1-1A mutation in the collie?

Test ordering (http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/test.asp)

You have a 1 in 5 chance your dog is homozygous for the un-mutated gene. If this were the case then your dog would not be at risk for Ivermectin. The chances of being heterozygous (1 normal copy, 1 mutated copy) is about 50%. It might be possible to treat with low dosage Ivermectin or Mitaban. Of course if it's homozygous for the mutant gene then Ivermectin is out, and administering Mitaban may have risk.

With the genetic results in hand then what? Since you make no mention of swollen lymph glands, the Demodex seems to be staying local and should be treated locally. You mentioned you tried Goodwinol ointment, but was the dog on antibiotics at the same time? The crusting and inflamation is most likely due to Staph/Strep infections secondary to the damage the mites are causing to the skin. This makes it even more difficult for the skin and hair follicles to rejuvenate. Typically antibiotics in combination with Ivermectin are given for systemic demodex. You might consult with your Vet about adding antibiotics and treat locally with the Goodwinol ointment, or diluted Mitaban. Dipping your Collie in it seems over-kill, and on a large surface area may be toxic again depending on the genetic answer.

Don't expect the condition to clear up in a week or two. Demodex may take upwards of 3 months to get rid of. Also even if the local treatment starts working, the appearance will seem worse before it gets better, as more damaged follicles drop hair. In another words a delayed effect.

Another thing you can do which might help a little is to start supplementing the diet with fish oil (2000-3000 2X daily) along with 400 IU Vitamin-E (dry form). The Omega-3s in the fish oil have anti-inflamatory properties, and the Vitamin-E will help accelerate the healing and recovery of the skin.

[Spiritwind]

This dog has not had the DNA test done to see if she has this mutant gene. Being $60.00 per test, I can't do all the dogs at once, and have to a 1-2 here and there..... I did just get more test kits in the mail recently so I can have some of them checked....

As for swollen lymph glands, no she does not have any of that (as of Tues. when she was at the vets) and she acts prefectly normal.. she also acts like her normal self, is a very happy, active puppy.... plays all the time, isn't lethargic, she doesn't act like there is a problem....

She was on antibiotics for a while, when I was using the goodwinol on her, however now that I think about it, I am thinking maybe I ended those antibiotics to soon... I wasn't doing both at the sametime very long... It wasn't even 5 days after I stopped those, that she got all this crusty stuff starting.... so she is back on antibiotics (a different antibiotic) and it is looking better... I do have alittle bit of the goodwinol stuff left, so I could try that again for a while.... and will start Fish Oil and Vit E. tomorrow...

Thanks for the info!! and I will try some of what you have suggested. I don't expect it to heal in a couple weeks... but I was just looking for some (even slight) improvment. IF we try Mitaban, I'll go for just diluted mitaban applied to just that area.

Thanks again for the information!

Janna

[Spiritwind]

Hi Robin!!

How are you??

Yep, this is Janna.... I haven't been on here for a while... been pretty busy!... Paris my smooth pup, and Zack her sire both placed in their classes (6-9 smooth puppy bitches and Open dogs) at the 2005 Collie National in Oklahoma City back in March... then since then we have been at shows A LOT!

Well better go for now... good to hear from you though!! TTYL

Janna



Originally posted by RobiLee
Hello Spiritwind...is it Janna?

I don't have any helpful information. I just saw your name and had to stop by. I hope that someone here has some good advice for you. Maybe Aly will.

I got a bit excited when I saw your name on the board..lol. I visit your website from time to time to look at your beautiful dogs. I've always loved them. I'm sorry to see that one of them is having a problem. Which girl is it? Is it Paris? Well, I just wanted to say hi and I hope you can get some help.

All my best....Robin :)

[beeniesmom]

Hi,

I've had some experience with Demodex in dogs and I've done a lot of reading on it.

First of all: Is she spayed?
Usually demodex manifests itself moreso when the dog is near her heat. Her heat stresses and weakens her immune system thus facilitating the growth of her demodex mites.

I'm sure your vet knows if she can have an Ivermectin dip or not. I've treated dogs by having them dipped every few weeks and then treating the affected area/s with goodwinall twice daily. I've gotten very good results with that.

This should clear up as she gets older and her immune system gets stronger.

I would not breed this dog because the chances of passing it on to her pups is very high.

[shutterbug0303]

Hi Janna. When I saw the title of this thread I had to look immediately. Although I am not an expert on the subject, I have almost a year's worth of full-time experience with it. We rescued our first dane and a full-fledged case of demodex. Most of the little was going to be PTS because people did not want them and weren't willing to invest the time and money. It seems as though your case is localized - ours was all over!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p0f4795fd052a6312c1ad35142aba2b64/f514ff6e.jpg
Although this image is a little fuzzy, you get the idea. We started with the mitoban dips, twice a week for what I think was 6-8 weeks. She cleared up wonderfully and seemed to be doing great. Her whole body was covered in a secondary skin infection so we were treating with antibiotics as well. After the treatments were over we took home what we thought was a happy, healthy pup. Until the night I tried to clip the poor girls toe nails. The very next day, her feet were covered in bumps and blisters. So much that she couldn't walk. It spread from there and turned into another full battle with demodex! We changed vets and started with Ivermectin. She was on that drug from Oct/Nov 2004 to I think Feb/March 2005. We slowly increased doses and then slowly decrease when she was "better". I know you said you can't use Ivermectin or Interceptor :( but that is really what worked out the best for us. It is what cured it, not just made it subside. However, because your case is localized, talk more with your vet about the dips. We had no side effects from it at all...but everybody's experience is always different.

Best of luck! :)

[beeniesmom]

Oh Shutterbug,
I'm so sorry about your experience....
Poor baby!

[Spiritwind]

So far she is actually doing better, with little treatment other than Antibiotics and still the goodwinol ointment.

So far the Mitaban has been difficult to get ahold of because the place we order most of our supplies for the clinic, doesn't carry mitaban and said we would have to talk directly to Pfizer.

So anyway she is doing better.... the scabs and crusty area are no longer there.... and surprisingly not a lot of fur came off when the scabs did.... she still has more antibiotics, but already the skin is nice and normal pink color, not red or irritated, and just looking so much better.... hopefully it continues in that direction...

I'm glad your boy is doing good now!!!! Poor boy, that must have been horrible to go thru. I have NEVER had to deal with this stuff before, and I'm not happy about it.... hopefully I never have to again....

TTYL
Janna



Originally posted by shutterbug0303
Hi Janna. When I saw the title of this thread I had to look immediately. Although I am not an expert on the subject, I have almost a year's worth of full-time experience with it. We rescued our first dane and a full-fledged case of demodex. Most of the little was going to be PTS because people did not want them and weren't willing to invest the time and money. It seems as though your case is localized - ours was all over!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p0f4795fd052a6312c1ad35142aba2b64/f514ff6e.jpg
Although this image is a little fuzzy, you get the idea. We started with the mitoban dips, twice a week for what I think was 6-8 weeks. She cleared up wonderfully and seemed to be doing great. Her whole body was covered in a secondary skin infection so we were treating with antibiotics as well. After the treatments were over we took home what we thought was a happy, healthy pup. Until the night I tried to clip the poor girls toe nails. The very next day, her feet were covered in bumps and blisters. So much that she couldn't walk. It spread from there and turned into another full battle with demodex! We changed vets and started with Ivermectin. She was on that drug from Oct/Nov 2004 to I think Feb/March 2005. We slowly increased doses and then slowly decrease when she was "better". I know you said you can't use Ivermectin or Interceptor :( but that is really what worked out the best for us. It is what cured it, not just made it subside. However, because your case is localized, talk more with your vet about the dips. We had no side effects from it at all...but everybody's experience is always different.

Best of luck! :)