Prong collars or chokers?

[slleipnir]

Which do you guys prefer for a training collar?

I take Zeke to obedience, and she ONLY wants chokers. I know I just don't use them right, but I find myself pulling a lot to get a correction. Plus, if he sees a dog he will strain on the collar and choke (cause it's hard to correct when he's pulling)

However, I also take Josie out to a different trainer. He lets me use whatever I want (the prong/pinch) which is also what he uses. I find it's MUCH easier to control. A simple tug is all you need in most cases, and chances are if they run to see a dog, they give themselves a correction. I don't find Josie chokes at all ith this collar. If she isn't listening, I say "Noo!" and a quick pop. I'm amazed by this, because now if she is doing something (Before I would be like Josie, sit. Sit...SIT!!!! and she would be like yeeahh whatever. And sometimes I still catch myself doing it (I try to only say it once) but if I do, as soon as I say "Nooo!" she'll do what I ask. and now is doing it even without that. She tries to test her limits with me A LOT)

Anyway, I don't know if the prong collar is 'cruel'. To ME it doesn't seem like it...I have the smaller, lighter version with blunted ends. It seems better to have her heeling beside me, not pulling at all, then walking where she is straining against her flat collar. I don't know much about it though...the guy I see is a professional trainer and has a lot of experience...so I tend ot trust his judgement

However, the obedience lady (I don't know what experience she has, but I don't really care for her ways. She is one of those "It's my way, and ONLY my way. There IS NO other way!!" She tells me that prong collars are horrible, and that the people who use them just don't know how to properly use a choker. Hehe, actually, it's like she treats US like dogs...trying to dominate us. I don't care for it. She tells me how long Zeke's nails are and that they'll curl under and hurt him....they do need to be cut, but they're definitly aren't curling under :rolleyes:

Anywho, what do you guys think??

Oh yeah, I was thinking of showing up to class next week with the pinch on...I wonder if she would kick me out? I really don't like the lack of choices I have for my own dog..

[Panda]

Wanted to mention, although I voted neither, it's not necessarily that I think they're horrible (although I'm really not a fan of those pronged ones) because I have a greyhound, I can't use either on them. I use a martingale (or Humane Choke Collar as they're sometimes called), and find they work wonderfully. Much softer and more comfortable for the animal, and if you're looking for something more for everyday, most collar makers will custom make them to fit other breeds. ;)

Plus you get great variety - this is Elvis' football collar.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Elvismom/Elvis14.jpg

And this was his Graduation collar (had to look good in the pictures, after all!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Elvismom/Elvis/newcollar1.jpg

[Bigyummydog]

we said prong...it's the best thing for us....as for chokers, MAXIMUS, will choke himself to death, not kidding, his eyes get all red and, well, it's ugly, and your lady teacher, is absolutely WRONG, what's perfect for one dog, could be so horribly wrong for another....i have learned soooo much from all these wonderful people here at PT....and you're right, ZEKE is your dog not hers....and you do what works for you and ZEKE......good luck :p

...and a choker ends up pinching an awful sore when it's pulled as tight as it will go....but then again, maybe i used it wrong...:rolleyes:

[LuckiLab03]

I defintiely thing a prong collar is more useful. Our dog school teacher says choke collars are bad because the dog can pull so hard and damage their trachea. Pinch collars doesn't allow for much pulling, when they start to pull you just give them a little pop and put them where they should be - it just gives them pokes all around their neck so it doesn't damage any part of their throat.

IMO and from what I've heard, prong collars are defintiely more humane.

[Glacier]

If you have to use one, I'd recommend a prong collar. They aren't as scary as they look! They are also less likely to damage the dog's throat when used correctly than a choke collar. A prong collar applies even pressure around the neck, a choke collar pinches.

Try one on yourself before putting them on your dog. Put a choker around your thigh and pull like you would with a dog. It will hurt, it will leave a bruise. Do the same with a prong collar. It won't hurt, won't leave any marks and won't pinch. (yes, I've done it).

Remember they are both for training only--they should never be left on a dog in place of a regular collar!

[Bigyummydog]

Originally posted by Glacier


Try one on yourself before putting them on your dog. Put a choker around your thigh and pull like you would with a dog. It will hurt, it will leave a bruise. Do the same with a prong collar. It won't hurt, won't leave any marks and won't pinch. (yes, I've done it).

that's exactly what i did...i don't do anything to my dog i wouldn't do to myself first...

[cali]

I prefere a choke chain, yesterday I had to use it with Misty and I was walking Blair as well so out came the coupler, and well Misty normally wears haltie, which was not really work well when using a coupler lol and it was not bad at all, she choked herslef far less then she does on a normal collar. Shadow was trained with a chcoker, she LOVES it lol I am not kidding, she hates the leash being on her regular collar and will pull and be a jerk, but she gets so exited to see the choke chain, and proceded to walk in a perfect heel and be a sweety lol. Shadow however has a very very thick ruff, so on her the choker would do no more then tickle lol

[wolfsoul]

Timber has a prong collar. It's been a life-saver. :) It doesn't hurt her at all because she knows she's wearing it, and when she's wearing it she won't pull. She just pulls and chokes herself on a chocke chain -- same with a nylon collar. She pulls BIG-time with a halti until her nose is rubbed raw and her tongue is bleeding. She also knows how to get it off. If she were back living with me I could correctly train her to walk on the leash again, but my family that she's living with right now are not patient with training, so the prong collar has been a God-send.

[pnance]

I prefer the prong collar. I confess I originally thought they were cruel, but after having used just about every collar out there except a prong on Nikka to try to get her to stop pulling, I gave in and took her to a trainer. She recommended the prong and though I was a little iffy at first I have to confess it's worked great. She'd choke herself to the point of coughing on the choke, but the prong, one quick "pop" and she remembers not to pull. Both of us enjoy walks more.:)

[Thandi]

I think I'll try a prong collar for Mika (lab/boxer/rhodie). She will choke herself to death on the choke-chain, the martingdale is what she has on all day for comfort, and the halti has her rubbing her face on me and her paws more than enjoying a walk. The harnesses haven't worked either.

She heels beautifully UNTIL she sees another dog, then she goes beserk.

Our trainer didn't really like prong or choke, but also understood that Mika really wasn't responding to anything. I only got her when she was 4 and she had never had any kind of training. The trainer also allows us to go back for refresher courses without paying, and I'll be doing that in the summer.

[Feismom]

I use a gentle chocker at the moment. It's also called a show chocker. My dog doesn't yank on the leash anymore. He just walks by my side with a very loose give to the collar. He starts his final training this summer and the Service Dog School uses a Gentle Leader collar which is suppose to be really good on all dogs. So, we'll probably be switching to that this summer. Here is a website that gives you a little more info on the gentle leader collar http://www.gentleleader.com/pages.cfm?ID=29

I like the looks of the gentle leader and I'll let you know how Shadow likes it if we switch this summer. Shadow's bio can be found @ http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?j=t&i=142635

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/Feismom/e3ffd482.jpg

This is a picture of Shadow taken last month. He's wearing his gentle choker.

[lute]

i said prong collar. they seem more affective.

[aly]

I voted neither, they're horrible. I would say why, but people have gotten mad at me in the past for expressing my opinions on them so thats all I'll say. You can probably find our most recent 4 or 5 page thread from a few months back if you do a search. :)

[k9krazee]

I really haven't used any of these, I used the choke collar on Shadow but it didn't work very well for her so I got a Halti.

[tikeyas_mom]

I found the prong collar worked quite well with my great dane, and my sibe.

I dont like the choke-chains because they tend to get caught on them selves.. plus they rust really easily.

[animal_rescue]

I chose the prong collar, I like them so much better than the choke. I even tried the prong collar on myself and it's not bad.

[DogLover9501]

I don't really like either.

There was an obedience class that I was going to take Jasper to, and it was a rule that they had to wear chokers. So I took him to a clicker training class instead.

I would never use either unless *every* other method/option didn't work-even with help of professionals. However, I'm not sure if I would even use one then.

I prefer to use positive reinforcement, and Jasper learns very fast when I'm telling him what he's doing right(and not wrong) :)

[aly]

Originally posted by DogLover9501


I prefer to use positive reinforcement, and Jasper learns very fast when I'm telling him what he's doing right(and not wrong) :)

That is such an important point that I like to emphasize in the obedience classes I teach. So many trainers concentrate on "No no no" always telling the dog what they are NOT supposed to do. When we let the dog know what they ARE supposed to do, then training is so much easier and you don't have to sit there yelling at your dog. I never yell at dogs, stay positive, show and reward desired behaviors, and have amazing results.

[slleipnir]

My trainer said he has worked with both methods. All positive, and the other way. I guess he prefers the other method - not the all positive. He likes to try things out for himself before judging if they're good or not (I'm not saying anyone here does/doesn't)

Anyway. He tells me to always be positive as well. For example...you're heeling, the dog does something it shouldn't (it knows it shouldn't) ..say "Nooo!" and give a quick pop. Tell it to heel again, and reenforce the command "heel" and praise. The next time, if it does it right, make a huge deal of it.

I've used just about everything for my dogs. I couldn't say one is better, but I know what works for me. They choke on a flat collar, they choke on a choker, and they don't learn on a gentle leader. I have seen a huge difference with Josie (who is dog aggressive) since starting to train her with this.

Aly, maybe could you tell me in a PM why you don't like them? I'd like to see difference points of view so I can research it. Thanks

[Suki Wingy]

Choke chains are evil, Niñoi just about choked himself with one, our vet and instructor from Layla's obediance class both said never use a slip/choke chain. I would ONLY use it for conformation. Niño loves his prong/ping collar and actually willingly puts it on. He can slip out of anything else except for choke chains and martingales. I don't think he really enjoys the feeling of it being all around his neck because he pulls a lot and very strong. This is a very touchy issue and I stand strongly behind my choise.
edit: We have tryed:
Choke, prong, halti, sporn halter, martingale, regular collar, and a harness. Guess what only really worked? you guessed it, the PRONG!

[Dixieland Dancer]

This is a passion of mine. I have been training and showing dogs in obedience for over 25 years and have evolved from the Koehler method (pop and choke corrections) to clicker training now and everything inbetween over the years. I have titled many dogs in obedience competitions with advanced titles. I currently teach dog obedience with classes from puppy kindergarten to advanced obedience. I am only bringing this up because I want you to realize I am speaking from experience and not just from opinion.

I only use positive training methods, specifically clicker training now. The ability of our dogs to learn when they are shown the correct way to do something is amazing! Instead of being punished for the wrong thing and then left to figure out how they can avoid that from happening again in the future is just ridiculous.

I have seen dogs so afraid of their owners because they are constantly given negative corrections such as a choke or a tug on either a choke chain or pinch collar. :mad: I'm not saying that is any of you. I'm just saying that there are better ways of training a dog than using negative training methods. I realize there are trainers with a lot of experience still teaching this stuff but it really makes me sad because there are better ways available. :(

I would venture to bet that I can teach a dog something and know the dog knows what it is being asked to do, in less time than anybody else can using choke chains and pinch collars. Actually, I've taken dogs that have been trained with negative methods and have amazed the owners that their dog could learn something they had given up all hope on so it really wouldn't be a fair bet. I'm not saying this to brag. I am only saying it to get people to realize that our dogs want to please us and want to learn what we are willing to teach them but they have to be taught in a positive light.

There was a saying that my grandmother use to say to me after I had my son. It was "A child learns what he lives." If a child is taught fear then it will be fearful... etc. It's the same for our dogs. They learn what they live. For their sake, I have thrown out all choke chains and any other negative training device and have just taught them to listen for a click or a "yes" verbal so they will KNOW when they do something right! That makes them want to do it again and again so they can make me happy! :D

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

I like prong collars if they're used properly. I'v tried it on myself a couple times to see if they hurt and they don't, they sjut give a slight pinch and that's all.

[slleipnir]

Is the way I mentioned negative? I'm still confused on this lol. I don't want to be mean to my dogs, I just want them to listen to me no matter what. I have tried a lot of things too. ( I'm not expert, so I can't really say anything for sure)

I know this guy has taken dogs who spent a life either being neglected, left outside all the time...whatever, the dogs I guess get really nasty and need to be put to sleep. He is able to train them into being very nice and friendly dogs. He shows them to me, and you can tell when a dog is really happy - his are. He told me about of his rotties who he couldn't even pat at first without her trying to bite him...maybe the method isn't the best? I don't know, but I do know it helps a lot of dogs. I also know he has trained dogs for many years, has studied behavior and many things.

actually, I found a website seeing I don't really know anything hahah XD
http://www.kck9.ca/content/about_us.php

Is there such a thing as half and half? Like some negative, but also positive? I really want whats best for my dogs, and of course, I'm still learning. I'm not sure who I should look at when training seeing everyone has their own methods...

[aly]

Darn, I tried to search for that other thread so I could copy and paste some of my training comments, but it looks like someone deleted it. I wrote out a lot of long posts on there, so I'm kind of disappointed. A lot of what I said is along the lines of what Candy was saying. I can retype everything, I just don't have the time right this minute.

I think a lot of trainers (especially older ones) use intimidation tactics. They do get results, but positive reinforcement gets results as well (along with strengthening the bond and keeping the dog's mental health in tact). The positive reinforcement exercises I teach do take a little longer for leash walking for some dogs. I think a lot of people turn to chokes/prongs because they don't have the time or patience for anything else. That was not directed at anyone here, but it is often the case of people in my classes.

I personally would steer clear of any "trainer" that FORCES her methods onto me. That is just narrow-minded. People who are willing to change their mind as studies are done, and admit when they are wrong are much better suited to train dogs. Every dog is different and methods do need to be constantly adapted to each individual.

I know you'll do whats best for your dogs, Audrey. You need to do what you feel comfortable with and what you feel is safe and right for your babies. I am against certain methods, but I hope you don't take it as a personal attack or anything. I'd trust you with any of my own dogs :) Oh yeah, and I will write out what I wrote in the other thread again soon.. hopefully later this afternoon/evening.

[Jadapit]

I remember that thread Aly.;) You sure got me thinking. Everything you had to say made a lot of sence.:)

[sammy101]

Both are very affective if used properly.Kodies obediance class,they had to wear a 'training collar(i dont call it a choker,sounds too harsh)I find them both affective,but i prefer a Prong,Kodie wears one everytime he goes out for a walk or to Petsmart.IMO Prongs are better for larger dogs.I'm not against these collars,as long as you use them properly.

[Thandi]

My trainers only used positive reinforcement and real gentle approach, no chokers, etc. But still Mika goes beserk when she sees another dog while on a leash, and no talking, distractions, food, anything, will change that. We've really been working on it a hell of a lot. They suggested the halti, but that irritates the hell out of her and she's absolutely miserable the entire walk, even tho I keep it loose and only hold on to it when we see another dog.

My dogs in SA were trained the Woodhouse way--shout, demand, choke chains. What I'm doing with these people is so radically different. I guess the first 4 years of Mika's abusive and neglected life are going to take a lot of undoing.

[cubby31682]

We now use a check chain. It has a chain peice in it but you only want to use it for the noise ONLY! You have to be able to get atleast 2 finger in the collar when pulled tight. That is what we use. I tested it on myself a few times. The collar is not ment to be a choker or a pinch collar in any way. It is not used in anyway that is harmful as well.

[slleipnir]

Well...

The choker the lady gave to me for Zeke seems pretty small. I can almost NOT get it off his head when I take it off..I have to pull it over one ear, then the other, and Zeke doesn't like it...I asked her about it and she said it HAS to be small or it doesn't correct right.

I was gonna see about doing therapy work with Zeke (through her) but I honestly don't care for her ways at all. I guess I'll have to find someone else.

Also on this topic...

I remember my old dog, Rufus. I only remember SOME things as I was pretty young when we had him. I rememeber a little of his younger years, and he would always pull VERY hard on the leash and also choke. (we used a flat collar) I didn't know of other things at the time. He would always pull on his chain outside too (before we got a fence) andI remember taking him to the vet, and she could just touch his throat and he'd gag.

That's another reason I think the prongs are nice. They don't pull, they don't strangle, and they don't get hurt like Rufus did...

I'd love to know more about positive only training. I've never really seen anything of it, so I wouldn't know how it works..

I do know that I want my dogs trained to listen to me NO MATTER WHAT. I expect them to come when I call, even if there is a dog. (Duno how to do that!!!) Maybe I am impatient, and as you said Aly, perhaps I am being lazy with it (I know you didn't point that at me, btw :))

If they ever got out and went running to the steet, I want them to listen to me NOW..not eventually when the training works...I'm sure there are better ways, but I can't say that any one is the best. It depends on the person and the dog maybe??

Anyway, this is a really interesting thread to read others opinions.

[slleipnir]

Oh yeah, do you guys think I could show up next week with a prong collar for Zeke? I KNOW she'll confront me..and I'm not very good with people doing that to me :rolleyes: But, I REALLY don't like how I can't do what I want for my dog...I was thinking if she told me to leave or something I'd tell her if she gives me my money back, I'd be happy to. I don't really want to be rude though..

[Bigyummydog]

well, you could say, when ALL else fails, you and your dog would rather NOT be under a truck, if a cat runs by...

[cyber-sibes]

I haven't used a prong collar because they look so awful, but after reading this, I think I might try one on Speedo(Cloud-Prince)-- he pulls horribly, and i don't think a choke collar (like I used to train Star) is going to deter him much. I used a Gentle Leader head collar with my Rosie, which worked like a charm, but Speedo has so far successfully thwarted my every attempt to put one on him.

[Bigyummydog]

MAXIMUS just gets soooo excited when he sees that big ugly and quite scary looking collar....it means we're going for a walk....it is scary at first, but you'll see, the way SPEEDO reacts....it's worth a try......:D

[Suki Wingy]

Haha.. Same with NiÑo, he absolutley goes crazy when he sees the prong! I think the people who belive there is always another way have not experianced the kind of hardheaded dogs like NiÑo who pull like a monster and absolutley refuse to listen to me some times. When I heard people say that a dog could be trained with a choke or a martingle I thought they were insane and radical and had never really tryed to train a dog before. I bet my next dog will be a breeze to train after NiÑo, even if it is a dal.

[aly]

Originally posted by slleipnir
Oh yeah, do you guys think I could show up next week with a prong collar for Zeke? I KNOW she'll confront me..and I'm not very good with people doing that to me :rolleyes: But, I REALLY don't like how I can't do what I want for my dog...I was thinking if she told me to leave or something I'd tell her if she gives me my money back, I'd be happy to. I don't really want to be rude though..

I'm probably a lot like you. I'm sort of shy and I HATE confrontation. I'm overly nice to people and get walked on all the time. BUT I have learned to speak up if it involves something I truly believe in. Don't let her make you do something that you feel uncomfortable with. He is your dog. You can say it in as nice a way as possible, but if she confronts you, tell her that you do not feel comfortable with a tight chain around your dog's neck. Don't let her scare or intimidate you. Remember, even though we're not there in person, we'll still be cheering you on.

I can't even believe she said it needs to be small. What if it it got pulled tight and stuck? How would you get it off in an emergency? That is just scary that she is allowed to teach classes.

[aly]

Originally posted by slleipnir

I do know that I want my dogs trained to listen to me NO MATTER WHAT. I expect them to come when I call, even if there is a dog. (Duno how to do that!!!)


We always tell people in class that they won't get instant results. It involves a lot of practice before you can go for a normal walk without having to worry about training. We tell them that if they want to take a walk without training, then to use a tool like the Halti, Sporn No-Pull, Gentle Leader, etc.

We have them start training exercises in their home. When a dog becomes good at an exercise, then they start practicing in the front or backyard. They eventually get to the point where they can practice in public (Petsmart, dog park, etc). If the dog just can't concentrate, we go back a step because they weren't ready. When you get to the point where your dog is proficient at doing exercises in public, then they get very used to listening to you even with distractions (other dogs) around. We have several 'relationship' exercises that we mix with the obedience exercises that really train the dog to focus on the owner. It does involve patience, consistency, and some conditioning. It can get fast results often, but it does depend on the dog. I do truly believe that positve methods work with any dog, some just require a bit more patience, hehe :)


Originally posted by Suki Wingy
I think the people who belive there is always another way have not experianced the kind of hardheaded dogs like NiÑo who pull like a monster and absolutley refuse to listen to me some times. When I heard people say that a dog could be trained with a choke or a martingle I thought they were insane and radical and had never really tryed to train a dog before. I bet my next dog will be a breeze to train after NiÑo, even if it is a dal.

Thats not true :) I don't always state my experience in these threads, but I usually try to so that people won't think I'm just spewing words out with no experience behind them. I've been a volunteer at the humane society here for 5 years. I immediately started an intensive training program where I interned with behaviorists and learned a lot about dog training and behavior. I also volunteer with trainers and behaviorists so I'm constantly involved in good conversations with them. I teach obedience classes to the public. Through the classes and the shelter dogs, I've encountered some of the hardest dogs I've ever seen. I've been banged up and bruised from walking massively large adolescent dogs who pull like the dickens. I have literally been dragged through a field. Candy also stated her experience before giving her opinions.

I'll be the first to admit that the methods I teach take a little longer than using a prong. But if you think about it, using a choke/prong isn't really *training*. It is a physical correction, but does it really teach the dog what the desired behavior is? I guess that is an arguable point, because with a prong, you will get a dog walking by your side. However, I just can't fathom how "popping" the dog and telling them "no" constantly helps your relationship and causes no harm to their mental well-being. No, not every dog on a prong will become mentally damaged. But there are vast amounts of dogs who are shy or come from abusive pasts and that would damage their mental well-being.

[LKPike]

Originally posted by slleipnir
I KNOW she'll confront me...I was thinking if she told me to leave or something I'd tell her if she gives me my money back, I'd be happy to. I don't really want to be rude though..

I understand you don't want to be rude, as I've been pushed into that before myself. If she starts, you can't back down. Its YOUR dog, YOU pay HER - not the other way around. I'd say go right ahead and use the prong collar on Zeke, since youve had good results with it on your other dog, right?

If that "trainer" does ask you to leave, DO ask for your money back and... leave.


btw - obviously I voted Prong :p

[lv4dogs]

Originally posted by Feismom
I use a gentle chocker at the moment. It's also called a show chocker. My dog doesn't yank on the leash anymore. He just walks by my side with a very loose give to the collar. He starts his final training this summer and the Service Dog School uses a Gentle Leader collar which is suppose to be really good on all dogs. So, we'll probably be switching to that this summer. Here is a website that gives you a little more info on the gentle leader collar http://www.gentleleader.com/pages.cfm?ID=29

I like the looks of the gentle leader and I'll let you know how Shadow likes it if we switch this summer. Shadow's bio can be found @ http://www.dogster.com/pet_page.php?j=t&i=142635

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/Feismom/e3ffd482.jpg

This is a picture of Shadow taken last month. He's wearing his gentle choker.

I see the vest & was wondering what type of work or therapy do you do with Shadow?

[slleipnir]

Aly, I don't think what I do is that negative like you say prong training is. I certainly don't have the experience you do, so I don't know if I should say anything lol.

I do know that if the dog does something you don't want, you give them a pop (doesn't have to be hard..just enough for the situation you're in) Lets say, the dog isn't heeling, he's walking ahead...Most times I say "Noo" and my dogs will come right back into heeling without a pop, but if they don't, a little pop will do it. Then tell them heel again (to re enforce) and tell them how good they are.

With Josie's aggression, if she walks nicely by a dog, she gets a huge reward for it. It's soemthing she is still learning and it's VERY good if she doesn't growl..so, she needs a reward to make it worth her not to bark. Maybe a treat, or playing ball. So, if you think about it, the dogs are being told what they can't do by a pop, and being rewarded when they DO it right. So, the way I see it, the dog will learn rather quickly what he needs to do to get that great reward.

[ramanth]

I voted for the choker, but I wouldn't say I prefered it.

Kia was in an obedience class taught by a woman who is revered for her skills in training police canines. She trained dogs with the choke/prong collars. Our class was only large breeds... shephards, pit bulls, huskies, etc.

If I were to do it again, I'd try the clicker method first, but I see no problem with using those collars for training if all others had been exhausted.

I no longer use the choke collar on Kia because for the most part she obeys and it served it's purpose.

[lizbud]

Of the two collars, I would (and do) use the prong collar. I used
it for Buddy & it was a godsend.We were able to go on walks
with me safely in control of him. He was a terrible puller.Bud was
trained using the old fashioned methods of the day with the
choke collar & pops of the leash. I was awful at giving corrections
cause I couldn't bear to hurt him.:o Switching to the prong collar
when very smoothly & was only used for long walks.

I am a failure at dog walking I guess, cause Smokey & Maggie
both use the prong collar with modifications. I had to remove a
few links & put the rubber tips on for them. I think the choke
collar is o.k. if it works for you & your dog AND the person knows
the correct way to loop the chain. It should relax the choke when
the dog is not pulling it.

[bckrazy]

I dont use either. . they aren't HORRIBLE when they're used correctly, but it seems like a band-aid to me. I would not go to a trainer that forces you to use prong or choke chains :rolleyes:. . she sounds really annoying and uneducated. Basically, she probably want everyone to put chokers on their dogs to make her job easier! In the long-run, training with a flat or rolled leather collar means youre voice and body language controls the dog, not a pinching or throat-restricting collar. Our trainers are the opposite, they don't allow prong collar, chokers, haltis or harnesses in class. . and all of the dogs that are past the first three or four classes never act up, pull, run away, or ignore their owners, they're all really good pups without anything but rolled/flat leather collars.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by aly
I'll be the first to admit that the methods I teach take a little longer than using a prong. But if you think about it, using a choke/prong isn't really *training*. It is a physical correction, but does it really teach the dog what the desired behavior is? I guess that is an arguable point, because with a prong, you will get a dog walking by your side. However, I just can't fathom how "popping" the dog and telling them "no" constantly helps your relationship and causes no harm to their mental well-being.

There is so much I want to respond to in this thread but lack of time will limit me. :( I would like to say that what Aly said hits the nail on the head! Using chokes and prongs is nothing more than a physical correction. Your dog may learn what not to do in order to avoid a pop again but it is not learning the desired behavior for doing it right from the start. Let me use an analagy. I keep drawing a circle but the teacher wants me to draw a square. When I draw a circle I get a pop (physical correction that is meant to hurt or jar my attention). Do I know yet that the teacher wants me to draw a square? No... so I draw another circle and the same thing keeps happening. Before long, I'm either going to do one of two things... not draw anything or try a different shape. Only a fool would keep doing something that causes pain.

Now lets try the same analagy a little different. The trainer wants me to draw a square and shows me that I'm suppose to draw a square. I draw a circle.... no reward and no physical correction. She shows me again how to draw a circle. This time I draw a square. She makes a instant noise and immediately something good happens to me (usually a treat but some other kind of reward could be used). WoW! I THINK that was great... let's try it again. OK.. I draw another circle... nothing happens BUT when I do the square that is what gets me the reward and makes the teacher happy... I'll think I'll continue to draw squares when she shows me that's what she wants.

Clicker training is the best way to shape a dogs behavior because the sound the clicker makes is constant and the dog learns to listen for it. No matter if you use the same "verbal" praise everytime the dog does something, it will be different because of your pitch in your voice. Having that constant tone is what makes clicker training so wonderful!

You can learn a lot by going to clickertraining.com. That website gives you the basics of training and how to shape a desired behavior. I feel some trainers do not like clicker training because it forces the dog to think and it forces the trainer to be creative.

The bottom line is that the dog determines it's rewards for doing desired behaviors instead of trying to figure out how to stop the next painful correction. I've done both and can testify that once you do clicker training and see the difference it makes in the dogs attitude, you will never use another training method. Do they all get results.... YES.... but at a price I am not willing to put on my dogs ever again. Each person has to figure out what works for them though. Clicker training and positive training methods in general just work for me!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by bckrazy
Our trainers are the opposite, they don't allow prong collar, chokers, haltis or harnesses in class. . and all of the dogs that are past the first three or four classes never act up, pull, run away, or ignore their owners, they're all really good pups without anything but rolled/flat leather collars.

The first thing I tell people when they enroll in an obedience class is that only flat buckle collars are allowed. On the first class we teach puppy management. That is where the dog is on a short lead and the handler steps on it to keep the dog in a down position. There are dogs that fight this (of course my Dusty did) but it's more of an embarrasement thing than a painful thing because they only have flat buckle collars on. The dog is not in control and it wants to be so it puts up a fuss. It's hard for some handlers because they are not alpha over their dogs. However, after the first night we usually don't have any problems. This enables me to teach all the students instead of having a dog out of control distracting from the class. This is about as harsh as my classes get. From there is it all positive.

The misconception I think some of you may be thinking about positive training is that you never give your dog corrections. That is the furthest thing from the truth. You do give your dog corrections but in non painful and positive ways. I use the UTT OHHH verbal and break out of the teaching position. Then we go back to step one and start again. Pretty soon the dog learns that wasn't the right thing so Let's try again! Before long the dogs catches on (the light bulb goes off) and the dog has a good understanding of what is expected. The next thing is to proof the behavior to ensure the dog will do it under all circumstances. That's a whole different post. Basically, the best site to check out information on clicker training is clickertraining.com with Karen Pryor, the originator of clicker training.

[K9soul]

I don't think there is one sure fire method that always works without fail for every dog in every situation. I disagree that the prong (as long as it is used correctly), is painful. It mainly prevents pulling from happening in the first place, at least in my experience, the same as a halti does. I do not really agree with popping it the way you would a slip collar in order to give a correction. I don't use it for training, I use it as a band-aid/insurance only when I'm walking Tommy on a very busy street with traffic because he is prone to bolting if something startles him. He is stronger than me, and I'd rather have him wear a prong than yank out of my grasp and bolt into oncoming traffic when something startling happens. As I've mentioned before, I used to use a gentle leader (for 2 years), but he was miserable every time, no matter how many treats I gave him, how often he was exposed to it. He'd have his tail tucked the entire walk because he hated that thing on his face. I decided to try the prong for his sake, not mine, as I would have preferred to stay with the leader but I couldn't stand his misery with it.

As I mentioned, I don't train with it, training sessions are pretty much 100% positive reinforcement. I don't even say the word "no" while training. I completely ignore undesirable behavior, or give a passive consequence such as halting the walk until they stop and sit down, then praising and continuing.

Negative reinforcement is not bad reinforcement in the sense that you might be viewing it (talking to Audrey here :)), it simply means giving a "negative" consequence that the dog will want to avoid, i.e. saying no, giving a correction, etc. In that light, I suppose stopping the walk until they stop pulling and sit is sort of a negative reinforcement. It's something the dog will want to avoid, but it seems to me most trainers don't really classify that as a negative reinforcer.

Positive reinforcement of course is a good consequence for good behavior, praise, treat, a toy, etc. Many trainers advocate using a mix of both positive and negative reinforcement when training. I suppose I do a combination in some instances, although not by saying "no" "bad" and making him/her do what I want. I prefer to behave in a way that makes the dog choose to do the behavior I want on their own. For example, if I throw Tommy's ball and he gets it and then gives it back to me when I say "give it to me" he may get a treat (random) or get the ball thrown again (which is a reward for him). If he goes and gets it, and does not give it to me when I ask him, I ignore him for a few moments and that usually does the trick, he'll often come give it to me when he sees I won't chase him. If he still doesn't, the session is over and he has to go back inside, no treat and no more ball throwing at that time. That's his consequence.

I found it's easiest to train leash manners starting out without a leash on, teaching off-leash heeling using treats as a lure and treating/praising heavily as they walked at my side, while saying heel. After some practice with this they learn to associate 'heel' with walking at your side and they do it enthusiastically for reward, not to avoid a pop. When they get proficient at that, you add in a leash and keep doing the same thing. I'd love to start out this way with a puppy and prevent pulling from ever happening in the first place, because once pulling habit is formed it's tougher to eliminate.

Tommy is fairly well trained on leash walking and I'm still working with him, however in his case he has his timidity issues, which I've also worked with extensively. Clicker training methods will not eliminate his startle response to sudden stimuli. I've worked with him on this extensively, and I still am. I have to work with each new thing individually, but I do not think I will ever completely eliminate his initial *jerk* response when something unexpected occurs. I don't use either choker or prong on Tasha, and I wouldn't use either on Tommy if he did not have that startle response issue. As it is, I only use it when I feel I am in a potentially dangerous situation, i.e. walking by a major highway or trafficway.

[aly]

Jessica touched on something that I was going to mention earlier, but didn't.

I say I use positive reinforcement only because its easier than explaining the 4 basic training ideas...

Negative Reinforcement (something unpleasant that is taken away to increase the likelihood that a behaviour is repeated... the reward is having the unpleasant stimuli removed)
Positive Reinforcement (something added to increase the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated)
Positive Punishment (something unpleasant to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated - does not correct a mistake but teaches dog not to do mistake again - physical pain and/or unpleasantness)
Negative Punishment (removing a reward to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated - no pain inflicted)

I use a combination of Positive Reinforcement and Negative Punishment. My Negative Punishments consist of verbal "Uh-uh" or "Too bad!" and putting away treats or ceasing walks. I don't agree with Negative Reinforcement or Positive Punishment (choke chain) methods.

It is kind of confusing because the negative/positive verbage refers to adding or subtracting stimuli and not the definitions we're used to. So thats why I didn't mention it before.

Anyway, so I not only show the dog what to do using positive reinforcement, I also communicate to the dog what undesirable behavior is by using negative punishment (if the dog pulls on the leash, I stop walking and stand still until I have their attention ... if the dog doesn't sit when given the command, I'd say "too bad!" and pretend to eat the treat myself or put it in my pocket, etc).

We also don't allow prongs or chokes in our classes.

[wolf_Q]

I've never used a choke chain, I do have a nylon choker type thing (the only reason I have it is because it was on clearance for $1 :o ) and I tried that a couple of times, he just chokes himself, I haven't used it since.

I personally cannot imagine using a choker or prong for anything but leash walking. I've taken Nebo to several obedience classes and they all used positive reinforcement and clicker training. They did teach us to do a negative correction too, but it was not a pop with a choke chain it was like an "eh eh" sound and believe it or not Nebo actually does respond to that. If I have him offleash playing with other dogs and he's doing something wrong...and the only correction strong enough for him to respond to was a pop with a choke chain, how am I going to correct him? A dog that responds from a voice correction is a lot easier to control in an off leash situation (not that he always responds :rolleyes: )

I have used a prong collar for walking situations. Nebo knows how to heel, he will do it if I'm walking just him alone and there's no distractions. He was taught how to walk nicely on a leash using positive reinforcement methods. But if I try to walk him when there's other dogs around, he will not listen to me. I have tried practicing with distractions around and have gotten nowhere. He would do it at the classes around other dogs, but not at home walking down the street. He's very stubborn. I have a halti, he HATES HATES HATES the halti, he just stops and scratches his nose every 5 seconds. I've tried to get him used to it and left it on not walking...still tries to get it off, he just can't stand that thing. When he has the prong collar on I never jerk on it to correct him, if he pulls it corrects him automatically. He does not seem to be in pain at all and enjoys the walk. That said, I very rarely use it. I usually just walk him with a harness, he still pulls but I deal with it....he does tire out after we've been walking for a while. He doesn't pull insanely bad like some dogs, basically walking on 2 legs because they are pulling so hard (Sydney!). He just walks but the leash is tight.

[K9soul]

Aly, thanks for clarifying all of that. I sort of knew what the positive/negative terminology meant but didn't know how to really explain it. Many people hear positive or negative and consider it to mean Positive = good, negative = bad when in reality it's positive = add, negative = subtract.

I had to read through your definitions a few times for it to all click together in my mind :p. I've been trying to learn all the particulars of a new account with my work, and my brain is dead for the day.

I trained Tash traditionally with the slip collar in her obedience class when she was 7 months old, but had I to do it over again I'd definitely use the methods I used to re-train her. Sometimes if we're walking and she gets distracted and starts pulling ahead, I just say "uh uh" in a fairly chipper manner and it works to focus her attention back on me.

I'd highly recommend positive training methods such as those Aly and Candy mentioned for training sessions.