Barking

[slleipnir]

When ever I let my (now 3 yrs old) Lab outside for her pee or whatever..she'll howl like someones trying to break in! Most times, theres no one there..atleast that I can see/hear. Anyway, it annoys our neighors, so we got her a bark collor, which i hate using, sometimes shes bark, get the correction, then whimper and it goes off with the whimer..it just seems really mean...and then if I don't put it on she knows she can bark and doesn't hessitate to. I want her to stop. Another this is, if we are out on walks, i can't take her to the park anymore off lease or if a dog comes along...shes gone..and won't listen to me at ALL! So she doesn't go off lead..if anyone knows some good way to fix this please let me know! she doesn't seem to get enough exercise unless shes galloping around..its more fun for her also. The dog park is to far to go everyday.

[yorkster]

I would definately take some good dog obedience classes- it made a big difference with my dog!
Also a squirt water bottle for the barking (means you may have to follow her outside in the mornings for awhile). A couple of good shots right in the face, and she will be quiet. Add a little vinegar if water isn't enough- I had to do that. I agree that bark collars ARE mean.

[Stenograsaurus]

Try taking the battery out of the bark collar and just put the collar on. If the dog knows the collar is on, she might not bark for fear of getting zapped. Of course, once she tests it and nothing happens, she'll be back to barking again. There are some people on here who offer good training advice and I'm sure one of them will be helping you soon.

[Hbrika]

I will try the water thing :)

My rescue is very quiet except around other mouthy dogs. She has also started barking at moving lights.

This is very strange, a whole year of nothing and now she chases and barks at them. Weird no?

[slleipnir]

Josie has been to 2 obedience classes, she did very well in both (even for a ribbon for coming in 1st :D) but it doesn't help with the barking. We moved, and her fence was in the back where no cars or ppl were, now theres cars a ppl. She doesn't bark if i'm outside, and with the bark collor she usually always tests it..shes pretty smart..lmao

[carrie]

The barking is not an obedience problem - it is a behaviour problem.

You have to understand why the behaviour occurs in order to correct.

In this case, bearing in mind that I don't know the dog or the owner or the circumstances, I would say this is a total territory thing.

Your dog believes that it has the job of defender of the territory....it shouldn't.

I would suggest that you do not let your dog go to dog parks for a few months.

Don't let it in the garden on it's own. Put a lead on when the dog needs toileting and as soon as any noise is made simply turn around and go back inside. (You may be sayin,"But my dog won't go to the toilet on a lead!"....It will given enough time.) When this happens don't say a word, don't look at the dog - nothing. Just turn around and go in, it is almost an accident that the dog has to follow.
Shut the door, drop the lead and read a book, watch TV, make a cup of tea but don't acknowledge the dog in any way until it has been lying down and settled for at least ten minutes.

Then, still ignoring the dog, take the electronic collar onto a hard surface and smash it to tiny little bits with a hammer, brick or other heavy object.

Call the dog to you, where you have sat down and continued your reading....and ask for a sit. If the dog complies it gets a calm praise and another chance to toilet - if not cross your arms and stare at the ceiling or get up and make another cup of tea. Wait until the dog is settled for at least ten minutes and repeat the excersise.

When you get to the outside the dog is allowed as long as it likes UNLESS it makes a noise.
-If it toilets without the noise it gets a huge praise and a little play.
- If it makes a noise you go back inside and start again.


You are telling your dog that you understand it's needs but it does not have the responsibility of gaurding the territory - that is your job as leader of the pack and you resent it thinking you can't cope. You are also strong enough to exhibit your displeasure without violence, agression or attack and will remain totally calm because you are very secure of your position.

This will take a few hours for the dog to "get" as there an awful lot of connections to establish so make sure you are fair and put aside a day to start this.

Good luck - any questions feel free to email or put on site - let us know how you decide to handle it.

[lizbud]

WAY TO GO CARRIE !!!!!
Ahemmm, Excuse me, I mean I totally agree
with the specific instructions on what to
do with an Electronic Collar !!!
Also, all the other advise on barking
as well... WAY TO GO !!!!

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[slleipnir]

Thanks for the advise. Josie knows shes been bad when she's let inside..she hangs her little head and puts her tail down. I fermly tell her No, and a little swat on the behind. I'm pretty sure its territorial. When everyone else leaves but me, and i'm upstairs (shes always with me) she'll stay downstairs by the door till someone comes home before she'll come up.

In the morning I don't have time to go outside with her, she'll use the "toilet" on her lead but I really don't have time to wait..and its VERY cold outside :[ I usually just let her out for long enough to do her buisness and let her in before she has time to bark, and tell her how good she is for not barking, and when she does bark then she doesn't get it and i ignore her. she HATES being ignored :[

The dog park isn't a problem seeing it's fenced in and she listens to me there, it's just at the park she doesn't listen usually.

Most the time she does something wrong she knwos shes bad. I just don't know how to stop it :[

[carrie]

Josie hangs her head and looks sad because you are not giving her the happy signals - she does not connect it to barking, not barking, going for a poo or not going for a poo. She has no idea why sometimes you are happy that she is coming in and sometimes you are really cross, agressive and violent.

Dog language is such that it is so easy for us to humanise it - the major challenge for training a dog is to understand that the dog is telling you things as though you were a dog, not as if it was a human or as if it was talking to a human.

Your dog understands that sometimes it is ready to come in and you are pleased to see it and welcoming - it can see this as soon as it looks at you out of the corner of it's eye (you will not know when the dog has seen your reaction in it's periphial vision) - it also knows that it needs to come in even if you are cross and are going to attack it physically.....it does not know what makes the difference between the reception it gets.

This is why you have to accept the dog behaving as it does until you have the real time to spend explaining, in the dog's language, that it really doesn't have to.

Please, please, stop giving, what you see as an innocent swat to the but. Your dog sees it as a physical attack by a weak leader and that forces it to defend the territory ever more seriously because it believes you are not fit for the job.

Take a weekend to watch and understand what the dog is actually saying to you.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[slleipnir]

Yeah, I know..but you'd have to know Josie. If she does something bad like chew something she shouldn't.. she'll come right to me and put her ears back, which shows me shes been bad. I think she knows that shes not allowed to bark, and by letting her inside after howling (i let her in right as she barks) and tell her shes bad, and i'm sure she knows it. When she doesn't bark she comes in wagging her tail and not expecting anything, but when she barks so goes to her little bed.
I think dogs need some disaplene, it seems harsh but if they don't have any they'll never listen. I don't mean like beating them, but a little swat or punishment for being bad.

[purrley]

I just got a new puppy and I will never, never, hit her with anything. I want her to know that when my hands reach out she is going to get loved, not hit. I will never use a barking collar on her either. I think a dog can figure out everything it needs to know about its owner by the tone of a voice. Already at 11 weeks she knows when I'm not pleased by the tone I use with her. She doesn't always listen at this age but I think over time we will both know each other really well.

I used to get up at 4:30 a.m. to get ready for work, now I get up at 4:00 so I have the time to take Tess out for potty. It's cold here too and sometimes Tess takes a little more time than others to do her duty. Make time for your dog after all isn't that why you have a dog.

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: purrley ]

[ December 12, 2001: Message edited by: purrley ]

[carrie]

sleipner you are right that dogs need discipline in their lives and they will give respect without fail once they believe that the leader is fair, understanding and above all strongly giving the right signals.
If your dog is still barking when she shouldn't - and even if you believe that she knows she shouldn't - then you are not giving her the signals that she needs to enable her to accept you as the leader and live by your rules.
Swatting her on the butt is a very strong signal to any dog - it makes not a jot of difference which one as they all understand the same signals - that you feel strong in your position only by using physical means. The fact that the physical is ineffective strengthens the dog's view that you are a weak and fallible leader and not to be trusted with the welfare of the pack. She has no need or reason to pay attention to discipline from such a leader as by doing so she could put herself at risk (in her eyes).
However close your relationship with the dog is - she is still a dog and will understand as a dog. She is incapable of anything else.

She is reacting to weak leadership by taking it on herself to look out for the pack.

I'm afraid to stop her barking you will have to have a change of attitude or find a trainer that shares your views. There are methods that will work and can be explained in different ways but when you analyse them it all comes back to getting your dog's respect. Sadly this is misinterpreted by many as gained when they get a fear reaction from the dog.

Good luck, let us know how you are getting on - she sounds like a really great dog.

[slleipnir]

Purrley: you make it sound like i abuse my dog! I do not hurt her, and I never would, she is my baby and my life. There isn't a dog in the world that could as for more love the my dog i gareentee it. But (your dog must be different but you'd HAVE to know josie) she is VERY smart and most things do not work. I try going outside with her it works when i'm out but only when i'm out. I have school and i'm there all day come home and do homework and study, eat and make time for josie's walk and play time, after that i'm ready for bed and get up as late as possible so i can get through another day.

So i guess you all you peoples eyes i'm just a cruel heartless person, obviously you don't know me. I would go to the end of the world for my dog! and it hurts me that ANYONE would think i would hurt my dog! i don't know if thats what u mean or not but its how i'm interperting by you saying "I never hit my dog" If she never her yelled at or swatted (not throwing her across the room) then she would be out of control. It works for me with most cases. i'll just keep after it.

Yes i have gone to professional trainers and they sugest the bark color or the control ones.

Carrie, thanks for your help, but it doesn't seem to work for Josie so I will continue with what i do. I'm sorry if i sound rude or whatever but i can't stand the thought of anyone thinking i'm mean to my dog, most likely the reason she doesn't listen sometimes is becsause i give into when i punish her, which i shouldn't do and am starting not to.

I have taken her to many training things and the way i learned to train is from profesionals with different thoughts from you ppl. So i'm sorry i'm rude i just get offesive very easily to my little girl.

P.S: Does anyone at all think this way of training is down right cruel and inhumane? Please tell me because I only want to do whats right for my dog, but shes not hurt at all by it, she just wants my affection.

[lizbud]

Hi, just wanted to say that I"M SURE that
NOBODY on this board thinks that you are
being cruel or abusive to Josie !!!
Sounds like you are really trying very hard
to handle a lot of things by yourself right
now. I understand that you also want to do the "right thing" to help Josie..
Please hang in there & just think about
the ideas other people are offering to try
and help both you & Josie...
It's not that you are a cruel uncaring
person, just that maybe another person's
experience might help you out..
I can say for sure, that people on this
forum only mean to help with the problem
you brought up about barking.
If there was any comment from me that hurt
your feelings, I'm truly sorry. It's very
obvious that you love your labbie girl or
you would not have asked for opinions on
getting her over this problem in the first
place...Best of luck to you & Josie !!!

[slleipnir]

lizbud, thank you. I have tried what some of the ppl have told me and so far it hasn't worked any better then what i'm trying.

[slleipnir]

Liz...yeah i see what you mean. It's just the way that purrley said what she did; "I would never, never hit my dog" or something, as if saying that i do. Theres a BIG differance from 'hitting' and 'swating'

[purrley]

Oh Sleipnir - no I'm very sorry - I absolutely did not mean to imply that I think you're hurting your dog - I simply expressed my own opinion about my little dog. And I'm only a week into dog ownership anyway - sometimes you can read things into these posts that are not there. I probably shouldn't have commented on this because I am so new at dog ownership and I know ZIP. Please accept my apology and take heed to all the other posts, so many others know so very much more about dogs and their training than I do - I'm just learning. HUGS :)

[slleipnir]

Purley, I over reacted probably, but it's just because I care so much about my dog. My way of training is just different from you ppls thats all. I've taken jo to many training classes from obedience to agility and shes done extremly well in everything she does ( from 3rd to 1st in her classes) so something is working for me, shes very smart and trains easily for most things, and i'm sure whatever your doing works for you.

I hate discipling her but i can't let her around with nothing. The voice thing doesn't work for her, and so a swat on the butt isn't much for her either its that i ignore her for a little while and she HATES it! she loves getting her snuggles and pats and good dogs.
I've had a dog since i was 1 yrs old, but didn't do much with him. I got Josie about 3 yrs ago and have been doing all the training myself, and i think i let her away with to much and spoil her which probably why she doesn't take me seriously sometimes. But I know that she knows that when i have a bad tone then my hand might mean a swat but when i have a soft nice tone she knows she'll get pet and loved. But all dogs are different so i'm sure your puppy takes things differently then mine, and you way of training probably works on a lot of dogs too, but all i know is it doesn't for me. I would never do anything of the sort if i didn't think it was best for jo. She only gets a swat if she really bad, and the barking can't go on cause it really annoys me neighbors and i wouldn't want to have to do something worst like take her somewheres else..

ok i went on about nothing for like an hr so i'm done..lmao..sorry that i got carried away and over-reacted about it.

[purrley]

I can sure feel your frustration - don't be surprised if along the way I ask for your advise on the care and training of a dog. I've only had my little Tess for a week and I've been asking a lot of questions about what to do. This morning I couldn't get her to come to me for the life of me and this makes me angry, I'm sure my voice showed it - I think she knew she was about to go in the crate for the day. Good Luck with your sweet Josie - she sounds like such a sweetheart - I'm sure you two are going to work it out together :) :) Oh by the way - because you are a part of Pet Talk is a very good indication that you are a loving and caring pet owner and are seeking ways of improving your relationship with Josie - I hope you discover what will work for both of ya. Chin up and Welcome to this fun, fun site
:D

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: purrley ]

[slleipnir]

Purley- Thanks :] I'm sure we'll find something lol. good luck with your puppy!
do you have pics of her? and what breed etc

[purrley]

I have a little chihuahua and thank you I need all the luck I can get :D :D I'm in the process of taking alot of pictures and will post them soon along with my 4 cats
:D :D :D

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: purrley ]

[ December 13, 2001: Message edited by: purrley ]

[slleipnir]

aww sounds cute. Looking forward to seeing them :D

[carrie]

O.K. The problems you are having with time and energy are ones most of us can relate to - I know I can BIG TIME.

I tried to make it clear that I understand you are not beating or hitting the dog - swatting to a human is a very different thing.

Seen from a dog's point of view it is physical retribution and that is reserved in a canine pack for only the most severe wrongdoing. A weak pack leader will constantly "swat" at those under it in status to reinforce it's position. Other pack members recognise this as a weak leader and will not take direction from that leader. They will begin to make independant decisions about their role in the pack and the responsibilities they can not trust the leader with.

The method you are using now is clearly giving no results, it obviouly frustrates you and you seem to know that there must be another method of doing it. While this is stressful for you it is also an opportunity.

I do not think that you are a cruel person or bad in any way but I do think that many trainers fail to keep in touch with behaviour research and so do not take advantage of new findings. The training methods you describe are at least forty years old.
Us behaviourists and psychologists do work...well...sometimes we do....honest...and an awful lot has been learned about canine communication, canine origins, canine-human interaction and a great array of issues that have significant implications for pet owners and trainers.

You very clearly care deeply for your dog and want to do the best for her.

It is up to you to learn, to think about what you learn and to decide if you agree or not.

Everything new takes time to practice, time to reap results and time for confidence to build.

You are not bad and nobody here thinks that -

Christmas is on the way....my main suggestion for an easily understandable first step that has some great practical suggestions to get results is Jan Fennel. She has a book out - I believe it is called The Dog Listener - and is ideal for an introduction into canine thinking. Drop enough hints and you may just get lucky.....(I think you can get it on Amazon.com)
(One word of warning....like everything, it claims to be the "new thinking", the "new way" - it isn't. She is a very clever lady that figured it out on her own...but there are others out here that have been doing the same or very similar long before her book arrived on the scene!!!!!!)

[slleipnir]

Thank you carrie for you help. Josie listens to me about 90% of the time, 100% if we are in side. I tried many different thing and this works the best. Like i said you'd HAVE to know Josie to know what I mean. I think the reason why she doesn't listen sometime is because i'm not constent with it. I know if i keep it up steadily then she'll come around. I've even asked the advise of my veterinarin. Dogs are very smart and know when they can or can't get away with stuff. I know theres a "dog language" to follow, but it doesn't alway work, she seems to be more human then dog..LOL yes i know that sounds REALLY weird..hmm..anyway, Your way of training i'm sure works for you, but not for me. Theres seriously no way i can wake up any earlier or else i get a very bad headache the rest of the day, and I get up usually went josie wakes me up wanting her food. She hasn't barked really at all latly in the mornings when i let her out. Now it's mostly only at dogs she barks at. She got over humans mostly so now we're working with dogs. It'll take time but once shes older and used to the house a little more ( we just moved in not to long ago) she'll be better i think. Shes a very hyper dog who needs lots of exercise and just wants to play.

A while ago she howled at this kid walking his dog off lead and he looked at me like..my dog what a undiscaplined dog kinda thing..later when he walked by, the puppy walked across the road and he called her but she didn't come. He stomped across the road grabed her scruff of the neck and back (she looked kinda scared..had her ears back and head low) and he threw her down and WACKED her butt..i mean not a swat..a HARD WACK, a slap..or something..and he was yelling at her..i mean the poor dog...i don't think it deserved that just for walking across the road!

[purrley]

Sleipnir - What you described in your last paragraph is a classic case of animal abuse and I urge you to contact your local Humane Society and report that person. I have a neighbor, who in the past has exhibited his manhood by beating up on his dog on a regular basis - I did call the Human Society and they came out and gave him a warning, letting him know that he had been observed being cruel to an animal. What you described makes me wanna cry - no animal or human for that matter deserves to be treated like that :( :(

[lizbud]

Sleipnir,
Just wanted to ask "who's the kitty" in your
signature pictures., and is that a bandage on it's head?

[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[slleipnir]

Purrley: yes i would but i don't know where he lives. The dog was a labby too! SO pretty and just a little pup! i was gonna go out and bitch at him but he was half way up the road... :[ poor little thing!

Liz: The caloco kitten, thats patches, its a swiffer cloth and a sock on her head..shes really stupid she actually liked it! lol! shes was the sweetest thing. Shes my..well was..my sis's cat, but when my sis was in the hospital for a long time once we took care of her and i got very attached to her :[ my sis wanted her back and ended up giving her to the HS. My friend a few months ago saw a cat JUST like her there and it had the same name and was 2 yrs roughly (how old she would have been-it was like over a yr since we saw her..) anyway the next day it was gone so it was probably put to sleep, unless someone adopted and there was no tag ( ppl have to wait 1 night before bring there new pet home) I sooo hope she found a good home! i loved her so much and wished we could have had her back :( :(

[carrie]

I urge you again to open your mind to other possibilities!!! Maybe it's not working because it is giving the dog the wrong signals and maybe you are inconsistent because you know, deep down, that it won't work???

Vet's are not behaviourists. They have no behaviour training and most of my business comes from vets who are big enough to say, "I spent seven years training to make sick animals better and all the animals I see and all the things that can go wrong with them took all that time!! I can tell you what might be a pssibility with a behaviour problem but I'm not the one you should be talking to!"

In the same way I can tell what might be medically wrong with a dog and even give a few suggestions but I can't give a firm diagnosis, prescribe drugs or perform surgery.

I am not a vet and the vet is not a behaviourist.

Dogs are smart, but only on the dog smartness scale. They can only interpret what you do with a canine mind. They can not interact with the world or the humans in it in any other way - that is why we love them, because they are dogs.
It's not rocket science, it's nothing new, it's just seeing and understanding as a dog.

Your dog is different from other dogs, but it is still a dog and still understands the pack structure and still understands the dog language (believe me when I say we are talking of different things when we talk about language here!).

If you are using understandable (to your dog) language - it will work. If you are using forty year old ideas of dominance and punishment, I've done two things to show you I'm the boss and you will be punished every time you disobey from now on....well, if I have the time - it won't. It won't work if you are more consistent. It won't work if you get harder with the physical punishment.

The very big clue to your dog not trusting you as leader is in the statement that you don't get out of bed, "until Josie wakes me up wanting food." She simply wouldn't do this if she saw you as the leader. She sees herself in the position to tell you when it is time for her to eat and all she has to do is demand it and you obey.

Finally the incident on the road that you witnessed is a person using the exact same strategies of dog training as you are. The only difference is that he was slightly more sophisticated than you. He has gone a little further along the learning curve ( of an outdated system) and also believes he is doing the best for his dog.
It is not acceptable to have a dog ignore your command and wander across a road. This is a life threatening thing for the dog who knows little of the dangers of traffic. This guy is making sure the dog never, ever forgets that running across a road is a really, really bad thing. He is hoping that the dog will remember it and never do it again.
This is dog training at it's best in one way beacause people can relate to it, can understand and react in the natural human way to a life threatening situation.

Sadly it won't work at all - the dog has no idea why it is hauled off and the best that can be hoped for is the dog will recall much better for a couple of days. It will not relate the incident to the road and the guy won't have the information he needs to reinforce the recall lesson and that too will fade quickly.
The only way this will benefit anyone is to repeat the excersise every other day.
The guy is only following the instructions of trainers just like the ones you have been listening to - and think about it, it does make sense. If it is OK to swat the dog on the butt for barking in the garden, that doesn't work very well but you are prepared to believe that is the best way to train your dog. You are out walking one day and the dog runs across a road, ignoring a command from you, right in front of a car. The only sensible thing to do in this situation is to go mad on the dog - if you swat the dog for barking then you have to make an impression in a big way for the dog putting itself in danger. (I know there was no car involved but the guy could obviosly imagine the implications.)

What has not been recognised is that the dog trusts it's own view of the world more than the owners. It does not believe the owner is capable of making decisions that will benefit it, so it makes it's own.

My way of thinking - and something I have proved over and over - is to get your body language as close as you can and to use the same strategies as Alpha canines use. If you can learn this and carry it out your dog does not have the need to run away from, or to confront, situations because it is the leader's job to decide how to handle it. If you can tell your dog, in language it understands, not language that makes sense to humans, that you are in control and understand much more about the world than it does then your dog can not help itself - it has to do what you want because it is genetically programmed to live life under a competent leader - it wants to! The pet dog has the major problem that it can't find a really trustworthy leader that understands it and that it can understand.


EVERYONE!!!
Please, if you have just skimmed through, don't be upset until you read the whole thing - thanks.

[slleipnir]

Carrie:
I can't believe you'd say my way of training is the same as that guy!? there is a TOTAL diff! I would never EVER hit my dog like that EVER! Thats abuse! You'd have to have seen what he did to her.

Have you ever tried this way (my way) of training? Josie is pure muscle and i'd be suprised if she felt anything, have you ever patted a horse? you know u have to wack them b4 then even feel anything..

I thank you for your help but i wil continue with my way no matter what anyone says! it might seem inhumane to you but it works! I'm sorry i don't have time to go outside every morning in the freezing cold.

My moms dad trained dogs, and i sware his dogs where the BEST and more well trained dogs ever! and he did what i do. Have you ever seen the the dog show where the dude goes to your house? he does it too, i'm glad this works for you and it DOESN'T work for everyone. So pleae don't keep saying this like i do it cause im mean to my dog and cause she only understands dog language and all this like your the only person in the world who knows anything about dogs! I'm sorry i'm so rude about this but i always say whats on my mind or i go insain. I don't mean it to be rude its just the way it comes out, i just need to get it out there and stuff. Yes i know i shouldn't go on but i have to get it out. So i'm sorry if i offended u.

But what that guy does is nothing like what i do, its totally different and humane. When jo chews on this (not anymore) i push down on her tounge, sounds mean? well i cant have her chewing my house up and i tried only yelling or whatever u said but it doesn't work for josie. I got that from a PROFESSIONAL dog trainer who does this sort of thing for a living.

Sorry again to anyone who thinks i'm offesive

[lizbud]

I agree totally with Carrie's statements.
Reacting to a dog's misbehavior with a
people response won't work.
If your dog trusts you as leader, he/she
can't help but follow your lead & look to
you for signals that convey "what to do" in
any given situation.
The guy who severely corrected his dog for
running into the street or the person who
swats the butt of a dog after the fact are
both ineffective in correcting a misdeed..
How many times have you seen a Mom or Dad
run to the rescue of a toddler, only to swat
them on the butt for scareing them so? That's
a human response to another human.Doesn't
work for dogs at all..It's the method being
used that's in question not the people
involved.

[carrie]

The guy on telly is making a fortune because he presents the facts in a human digestable way, using methods that are based on canine language and keeping some of the physical aspects that humans relate to more easily.
His body language is totally different from the owners he is giving "miracle cures"to.
All the time he his talking to the owner he is giving very strong messages to the dog in question without even looking at it!

Yes - I was brought up around horses.

NO!!!!! You do not need to do anything to a horse other than walk your fingers over it's skin like a fly for it to feel you. - Take two minutes to watch a horse with a fly walking on it and you will see!
To survive - to stay alive - a horse has to know what parasites are near it, on it and potentially taking advantage of it. In order to do this it has developed ultra sensitive skin, a long tail and a buddy system - ever seen horses standing nose to tail? They are keeping flies off each other.....because they irritate! Please, think about what you actually see rather than what you read or are told!
To compenstae for this parasites have developed specialised saliva so that sensitive skin doesn't feel the bite.
To compensate for this many animals have developed an allergy to the saliva.....and so the cycle goes on.

No, I do not think I am the only one that knows about dogs - Darwin started the whole idea, so it's not new.

Yes, you and the guy you described are using the exact same methods - he just has more reason, in his eyes, to use further force than you do.

Chimps, I'm sure you would agree, should not be treated as human children and paraded as cute photographic models. Most people on the planet will see the opportunity to have their photo taken with a chimp and do it. You would not hit your hamster and expect it to know what you are upset about.
All I am saying is that dogs are somewhere inbetween - they are not hamsters and should not be treated like they were. They are not chimps and should not be treated as though they were and they are not human.

Using physical retribution, however slight, is giving your dog the signal that you are not coping as leader. -That is not only my opinion, it is canine opinion as well. Canine communication is probably the most studied and understood of all, bar primate, animal communication.

I do not take offence at all at your remarks, you are totally entiltled to your opinion.
My point is that with such obvious concern for your dog's welfare it is a shame you have decided to be led rather than find out for yourself.
There is a whole world of opinion out there and shutting yourself down to just one is a waste of an intelligent and caring mind.
As I said before - although having problems is stressful, it is also an opportunity.

I'm really sorry you feel the way you do.

[slleipnir]

Ok i red NOTHING about horses i ride them, and i know when you praise them you pat harder then a running your fingers over there skin. why? because it feels like flys to them and its irritable to them like u said.

You are not getting one thing i'm saying, you have your points and reveuse to open your mind at all to others. And I hate it how your going on that i haven't tried anything else cause i said like 50000 times that i have tried eveyrthing else and this is all that works.

No i wouldn't hit a hamster because they are not dogs. They are small and frigile and stupid. You have your mind set on your way and you will not look at anyone elses, and until you do that or see my dog and her behavior you shouldn't say there is only ONE way to train a dog and that is the way you speak of. I've never heard of anyone (well rarly) training their dogs that why. I swat on the rear is nothing serious and she barly feels it. Maybe it's a canadian thing? eh? Like i said, until you meet my dog, which i'd love to see you train her more efficiently then please do not talk of me doing wrong with my dog saying i don't try anything, which i try EVERYTHING and anything and pick out which is better for my little girl whom i love with ALL my heart and i garentee theres not ONE dog out there that could possible ask for more love.

She doesn't exactly "Wake" me up in the morning, but after i wake up she's up and wants her food, should i not give her food to show her that i'm the boss? I'm sorry but its not fair to her, she has a set time for feeding and she knows she only gets it cause i give it to her.

[slleipnir]

Another thing, Darwin stated the theory of natural selection NOT how to train your dog!

[lizbud]

Sleipnir,
Since you said yourself that your way is
the best & only way to go about correcting
this problem,and you won't listen to anyone
else's ideas about it, why don't you just
close this thread yourself & not be bothered
by the other ideas on "how to fix this",
that you asked for in your first post ?
If you don't want other ideas,don't ask.

This topic is becoming very tiresome...

[slleipnir]

ookkk again no one is listening to me. I posted for some NEW ideas and i didn't get any i haven't tried. I did close this topic but carrie is going on and not listening to what i'm saying! so i'm not gonna sit here and let ppl thing i'm mean or whatever. If your tired of this then please don't read it. I'm talking to carrie and not you so don't be like i'm being rude to you or something.

You ppl aren't reading what i'm saying! You just DONT understand and i guess i,m not putting words so u can understand what i mean! So plz! just reeaad! You making me out for a BAD person, and i'm not! just annoyed that no one wil listen to me! thats NOTHING new so i'm sorry i even posted anything on this bored! I'll try to keep my ?'s to myself to make you ppl happy. i wouldn't wanna piss anyone off..its just to me carrie is talking about the same thing and not listening, she goes on like she knows anything and everything, i may seem stupid but i know a lot about things ppl dont seem to think i don't. Until you try different ways stop going on like its the only way to do it! i'm done i'm tired of the world being against me! almost no one listens to me with this sort of thing so i might as well not post. URG it just..nm..sorry for whatever i'm done posting

[grandpenny]

hmmm... maybe this carrie person has some problems... It seems like she just knows EVERYTHING. my goodness. -sigh- but what do u expect? :mad:

[slleipnir]

Listen, I'm sorry for whatever I did, it seems no matter what i do it can't end in desencey. Everyone elses up mad. So it's something I do. So I won't post questions if it means that ppl wont get upset. I'm upset myself now myself..but i can't leave things unsaid. But just review what you ppl wrote and what i did. maybe you'll pick up what i'm talking about that NO ONE else seems to see..maybe i'm just going seanial..

[lizbud]

Sleipnir,
Goodnight, have a good night's rest.O.K ?
It's true, I do not understand what you
need. I feel nothing I can say will help
you in any way.I wish you nothing but Good
things and Best of luck in life's journey..

[slleipnir]

urg..i don't know why i bother with anyone. I should be locked in a room with no human contact.

Does ANYONE see my pt of view!? geez i'm might as well talk to a wall cause no one will listen at all!!

I said i didn't mean it offensivly and didn't say anything to you liz, so i duno why your all touchy! goodnight, whatever doesn't matter

[tatsxxx11]

Deep breaths everyone!!! Audrey, please take what Carrie says as a very sincere effort to try and explain why your approach may not be the best way to handle the problem. We can all read how distressed you are YOURSELF over perhaps not taking the right approach to disciplining Josie. I DO know how much you love her. I don't believe anyone means to imply otherwise. I know that Carrie does not need ME to stick up for her. But, and this is for all the other newer members as well, Carrie indeed IS a very wise, intelligent, educated and most of all, CARING person, as well as someone who has, since the beginning of Pet Talk, shared her wisdom her vast knowledge and her concern for us all, (especially the younger ones like you, Audrey) and all things animal! And Jiz, (welcome, by the way!) Carrie, having an impressive background in animal behavior and education, truly does know a lot about animals. And she would be the first to admit that neither she, nor anyone, knows it all! And to everyone else new here. We are a very friendly group of people, here to share out love, passion and knowledge of animals. And MOST especially, to extend our support to each other. It is so distressing to hear people casting dispursions upon one another. :( Audrey, please, please, please try not to interpert well meaning advice as a personal criticism. We all want to help you out with this, OK? You are such a dear girl, and I really want you, and Josie, to stick around! :) And Jiz, your 4 legged family is gorgeous!

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[slleipnir]

ok lol this is silly now! lol..Noone sticks up for me, noot the pt, if i was better at expressing myself i could explain it but i obviously can't. I e-mailed carrie and i hope she understands me a little more.

I know carrie is a wise person and knows a hell of a lot about animals, more them me i agree. It my age factor setting in again, just because i am younger then most people here, my advise means nothing and i have no clue what i'm talking about. Thats the ONLY thing that bothers me. My mom is the same way actually, she'll ask my bro for help with the puter before me even though i might know whats going on, he's older.

For being a stupid young person, I know a lot about animals, i've grown up around animals and have always have a passion to work with them. I took my dog to training, i got advise from everywhere, i took horseback riding as am pretty good at it. I helped out around the barn learning about them. And i worked at a vet clinic through school to help learn more.
A lot of ppl my age i know are out getting stoned or drinking till they have no damn brain cells left and doing drugs, and wouldnt dream of wasting time on pets. But thats not me, I always have a place for pets and always will, my furture job will involve animals, and you can ask any of my friends if i take good care of my pets or not?
Even though saying this it doesn't matter, because the youth in no world will measure up to the adult. 2 more yrs ppl! and i do know a lot about animals and am still learning! i just can't get you ppl to understand what i'm talking about! and i'd love for you to just come over and see the dog so you can say "ok, i see where shes coming from" but you ppl seem to just have one and only way of looking at things, and you tell me to open my mind..you can't say that when you don't yourself!

I think if i just say i'm doing it your way then atleast i'll be normal again, so yes i am.....if thats what you want to hear

[twirlbird]

Carrie: Please state your qualifactions, did you attend university and take classes on animal behavior and psychology? Work with a trainer or did you just get this out of a book. I know Audrey and it is a swat. It does not mean a wack or anything along that line. She just means that she knows what has the best result for Josie. You do not know Josie or Audrey, thus you cannot make the assumptions that you do. And Audrey came here for advice on what to do, she tried it failed, accept it. And dont ever ever assume that because someone swats a dog that they are a weak leader.

Lizbud: Where to begin, how about actually posting a reply instead of always agreeing to whatever carrie says. You may-as-well not post at all, but if you come up with an opinion, then feel free.

Caitlin

[tatsxxx11]

Audery! STOP!! LOL!!! I don't read anyone here calling you stupid! Only you are!! :D And, you know, there are LOTS of members your age here! As a matter of fact, Logan and I were just talking about how the younger ones are taking over! :D (And we're not that old!) And Audrey, it's not only young people disagreeing with older ones. Full grown adults disagree with each other as well, all the time! You're right! In two years you too will be in "our group," and you won't have the "excuse" of being a "kid" to fall back on when you and other disagree!!! That's just the way life is. I think you should stop putting yourself down, because no on else here is! We're all here to share ALL of our ideas. And I think, as I said before, that you are a very special young woman, with a lot of love to give to your animals, and that's the most important thing. I wasn't NOT sticking up for you, silly! I was responding to the comment made about Carrie by Jiz, who doesn't know her. You know how negatively I feel about hitting a dog because I already told you! And while I am not as knowledgeable about the science of animal behavior as others here, I have my own instintive feelings, emotional responses, as well as first hand experiences with my own dogs, that I base that decision upon. I told you about my abused husky rescue, Cody. Even the motion of a hand going up in the air and she yelps, cowers and belly crawls into a corner. She was hit throughout her young life, and I see the permanent harm it caused her, everyday. And I know, that is not the type of hitting you are talking about. But still, it is just feeling that there are so many other ways to deal with doggie issues than resorting to physical correction. Just give others... here, and in your life in general, a chance to share their thoughts, ideas and knowledge with you. None of us is too old to learn. Not me, for sure! Why not pick up a few books on dog training, talk to other dog guardians in your area, other trainers??? I know that since coming here to Pet Talk, I have learned so much about dealing with obedience issues with both my lab Star and Cody; all by listening to what others had to say and reflecting upon what their experiences have been with their dogs. Star is a lab, and she can certainly be a handful!! :D She is VERY independent, strong willed, intelligent and very demanding, IF I allow her to be! She definitely wants to assume the alpha role for the whole world!! If she had it her way, she would bark her head off everytime the wind blew, would eat every minute of the day, and until just recently, would wake me up at 2am with her ball in her mouth, plop it on my chest, and whine to go out to play. :rolleyes: If she misbehaves, it is MY fault. I have given her the wrong message, signals. I have a very sympathetic side, and my tendency is always to "give in" rather than reprimand. Well, finally, I was getting too tired, being woken up every night at 2am! And, she has to learn to eat at the appropriate times, or she'd be yelping at the pantry and frig all day long! After a lot of discussion with knowledgeable dog people and my vet, I finally accepted the fact that I had to be the boss!! And it didn't require physical reprimand. It was hard, but when she would start to bark to demand something, when she would yelp and bark to go out and play at 2am, I was told I HAD to just ignore her. She would stop when she realized that barking or begging was not going to get her what she wanted! And, after a week or two, blessed silence. And no, I certainly am not denying her anything or being cruel. Ask anyone here. No dog gets MORE atteniton, time and love than Star and Cody. But, guidelines do have to be set or your life will be chaos! Just think about what others have said. OK?? Oh, and on my refrigerator, I have printed the Dogs' Bill of Rights. Among those rights is this...."I have the right not to be made a prisoner of my own misbehavior." In other words, "teach me how to be good...not punnished." And, the quote in my signature below, for me, says it all!

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[slleipnir]

YAY! Caitlin is my hero! lol anyway, she understands my points! SOMEONE IN THE WORLD does..

Thank you caitlin (hugs to your sweet dee, fat little kit and mr farret

[tatsxxx11]

Fair enough, Audrey. Sounds like this perhaps was an issue that never needed to be discussed afterall, since there doesn't seem to be a problem, and Audrey is comfortable with her decision. Good, case closed! :)

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[slleipnir]

LOL Sandra, Yes thats what i mean, I said in everything i said, that I have went to trainers, and i have read tons and tons of books, i've watched shows and everything.

Your dog that was abused if different, and thats probably why your so against swatting, i wouldn't call it hitting. Have you ever once swatted you dog?

And i garrentee that my dogs also get the most love and attention, i try everything and anything and thats what i'm trying to get across..Maybe i'd be different if one of my dogs were abused, which i have to say there never were. I'm staying at my moms for the weekend and went to see my little girl and i never saw a happier dog! we played for a while and shes perfectly happy! shes always so happy.

I don't, everytime she does something swat her, only when like the other week, she wasn't getting attention cause i had ppl over, and she chewed my expensive dovet, i told her NO, and that was bad of her, then put her in the kitchen, and she would never even think of chewing something again. She doesn't coward in shame or pain or fear, if she was being abused she would never be bad. My other dog Rufus, is the BEST most well behaved dog anyone could ever want! he NEVER does anything bad! hes such a sweety!! He was trained by my mom seeing i was to young and i learned from her.

[slleipnir]

I was tought to never give up, this is why i'm so persistent. But seeing that everyone is getting so upset with me, i think sandra's right and i give up, she says something about me, that i shouldn't be angry on this board, and shes right, but i didn't mean it in a rude way, to me what liz and carrie are saying thats rude, so i will look at it your way, maybe you could try and look at it my way also, it's x-masish and noone should be fighting. So as long as ppl don't keep continueing this, i will stay away. Sandra is right and this discusssion should now be closed.

Sorry, i might not know much about training your way, but i certianly know lots about caring for pets and veterinary stuffs.


Carrie, sorry and thanks for your advise, i will try again on my next dog from the very start and maybe it will work on it.

Liz, nothing to say to you....

[Karen]

Okay, no need for anyone to be angry here. We all have differences of opinion, and everyone here, for the simple reason that we all love animals, has strong opinions on any given subject.

Don't give up! Not on us, and not on Josie! :)

First, be persistent. You mentioned way earlier in the thread that you need to work on that. Dogs and toddlers will pick up on any inconsitency in our behavior, and, as you said, Josie is smart. And stubborn. So you need to be MORE stubborn and make sure that you are being completely consistent with her in regard to her barking. Set the rules for her and follow them - and make sure anyone else around does, too. Try the method you want, and be completely consistent with ot for two weeks, then report back. I bet you - and Josie - will be doing much better.

(The most bark-problem-y dog I ever knew had owners who were completely inconsistent, and so the problem remained. The humans decided, I think, that it was easier for them to ignore the barking and decide not get upset than to change their own behavior. Sigh.)

Everyone take a deep breath and go hug a pet.

There, feel better?

[slleipnir]

Karen, thank you. I have stopped with it thats what i ment with my last post. I ment i give up on the posty thing, i will never give up on Jo, but your right i don't think i'm all to consistent, and i have admitted that before. I will try to keep it up, actually i have the last few days, just by saying shes good when shes comes in not barking and bad when she barks and put her in her corner (for you ppl no swat) but still my own way, we'll see how it goes

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Hi Sleipnir, my name is Jackie and I have two Schnauzers Miss Daisy and Perry, and I haven't read these posts before. I have the same problem with our Perry, he jumps up on the couch and barks, we are trying to be consistent in telling him "No bark" and he seems to be doing better, I guess it takes a while. I can relate to your problems with the barking and we are working on it too.
Don't get upset with everybody giving their opinion, everyone is so intense in their love for their dogs sometimes it doesn't always come out the way they want it too.
I can tell how much you love Josie and she is so beautiful. Carrie is very smart, she is a dog behaviorist and is very serious in her advice, very knowledgeable, but if you think your way will work better I'm sure she would agree with you to try it. We are so happy to see you young people on here who love animals so much, it warms the heart. Good luck with Josie, I'm sure she will do well with your love and care.
Jackie

[sasvermont]

I am not sure what this is all about but I think it is about training a dog to NOT bark.

My story: I had a former boyfriend who had a sheep dog. The dog ALWAYS barked while riding in the car, to the point of total distraction. I mean one bark right after another. The owner tried everything, including wacking the dog, yelling at it... to make it stop. The owner went away for a holiday and I took his dog for a week. He was a sweet dog except for the darn barking. He was highly trained and was taught to walk next to you without a leash etc. etc. So he was a smart cookie.

I had seen a program on TV (U of PA vet school's program) about positive reinforcement = food for good behavior (and a nice voice) and a strong NO for bad behavior ....... for dogs that were agressive with children. To make a long story short, within one car ride, I had the dog NOT barking. I took a bag of Pepperidge Gold Fish and the dog wanted them more than barking. Eventurally, he got one gold fish per ride. Then none. He stopped barking. The end. Hope that story helps....

:D :D :D :)

[slleipnir]

Yes, thats something like what i am doing, she doesn't get treats cause then she'll think..hey i came in and was good?? TREAT NOW PLEASE!!! -cute face- I ween her off but shes always wanting food, i feel like i starve her osmetimes but the vets says shes getting more then enough lol. I could give it a try though, one thing i haven't tried yet. Thanks

[carrie]

I have replied to Audrey's email and explained my qualifications and experience so I hope that helps some.

I am not angry or mad with anyone.

I'm sure things will work out well and wish you luck.

Younger people on this site are a joy and add a great deal to the collective knowledge and experience here. (I'm not THAT old myself!!!!)

I'm sorry you felt nobody was listening. That was not the case, I assure you.

Please take a look at the subject on dog training methods - I hope you will see that I am not stuck on one way and one way only.

Lastly, my point about Darwin was to illustrate that the work on natural selection and genetic inheritance that he started is vitally important to understanding how animals that we keep as pets function, react and behave. I should of been clearer on that.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, you are much loved and respected by everyone here for your knowledge of animal behavior, please don't ever, ever, feel you have to explain your credentials or present them to anyone. This is just a case of immaturity. God knows we all need help here one time or another and we look to you.
Jackie

[slleipnir]

I'm sorry i was "immature", but please this is all behind us, i think we should just go on as if it never happened, it would probably be better if the whole suject would be deleted, ppl have come and just read the 1st part and get upset about it, but carrie had some good advise.
I didn't want you to have to tell me about your qualifications, the way you talk explains enough and it doesn't matter anyway, I know a lot about certain things with animals and i'm sure no one cares where i found out, i don't mean i don't care that you got all that education, not at all , i just mean that your advise is enough and you shouldn't have to explain yourself in that way unless you want.

Ok..that probably won't sound the way i wanted it to, i'm a terrible writer.

For anyone reading only some of this, it is over with and a few misunderstanding were exchanged thats all, I understand were carrie is coming from, i just didn't want ppl thinking i'm cruel with my dog, or my way isn't efficient to dogs in anyway. I DO understand carrie i think, maybe i don't, if thats the case i really would like to. I'm sure she understands mine, shes very smart, and i appresiate her advise, i must have taken it the wrong way or something......

I was looking for new ways, but i just wanted to see what ppl had to say about it, i wasn't sure i'd find anything but i wanted to try anyway, I will keep anyone who wants to know updated with Jo's barking, i'm sure she'll come around :D

It's x-masish and i didn't mean for harsh things to be flying around (well..ppl thinking there were, thats not what was ment)

Carrie: have you ever thought of writing a book on dog behavior? everyone here looks to you for advise, and it sees like it could be..bookish...lol! i guess it takes time for that though.. :p

[twirlbird]

Jackie incase you dont know this was sorted out. And what you put was offensive, that whole thing was more immature on your part than me and audrey. And we wanted to make sure that she knew what she was saying so i dont think that that makes us immature.

[carrie]

Audrey, thank you so much - that is very sweet of you.

Several people have approached me about writing a book, but you are soo right about the time thing!! I would need, at the very least, two or three months by a deserted beach with a chef, a cleaner and my own bar. Until I can get someone to agree to these conditions I really can't see it happening.....a shame, really!!!!!! (For me, anyway!)

[slleipnir]

maybe someday then ;]

[jackiesdaisy1935]

I'm sorry Twirlbird and Sleipnir but my post was directed to and I was talking to Carrie.
Jackie

[Dixieland Dancer]

WOW! What a hot topic this has become! I am almost afraid to post my opinions but I also have some opinions on this.

First off, I think Carrie is only trying to get you to see the difference between human and canine thinking. We tend to love our animals immensely and sometimes think that they are capable of understanding on human terms but they can not! They are not human and should not be trained on human levels.

There have been several posts in the past on dogs barking and how to stop it. Personally, I think positive dog training is the best and most effective way to train a dog. I have been training dogs competitively for over 25 years and have used all the methods along the way. In using corrections such as swatting or popping a choke chain the dog is learning to look for a negative correction to it's behavior. If done correctly and the timing is 100% done in the correct time, this method can be effective. However, most people do not correct in a timely fashion so the dog understands what it is being corrected for. If your dog is barking and you call her to you and she doesn't come but stops barking, sniffs along the way, and eventually comes to you and then you correct, this is ineffective timing. Corrections need to be no more than 3 to 5 seconds after the behavior is displayed for the understanding to sink into the dogs thinking.

I use treats to get the dog to understand what I expect and then slowly wean them off. If you are afraid of giving too many treats, then use the dogs regular dinner kibble and use it as a treat.

I am attaching the links to the other posts that have this discussion so hopefully something there will be helpful.

Excessive barking (http://petoftheday.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000207)

Why dogs bark (http://petoftheday.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000140)

Controlled barking (http://petoftheday.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000203)

Max N Petey's story (http://petoftheday.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=000199)

I hope some of these threads give you the information you are looking for.

Positive reinforcement works more effectively and quickly than any other method I have used.

Good Luck! :D

[Karen]

Actually, folks, any contentiousness has dissapated. Communication is sometimes difficult with the typed word, but we do try to keep things happy here. Audrey and Carrie are not angry with each other and they now understand each other better, and I think that's a good thing.

So no squabbling on their behalf, okay?

[slleipnir]

I agree, everything is settled now, and it might be best just to leave it here. I'm pleased to say that when josie went for her pee and saw her fav. little doggie friend running around, she gave off one bark then stopped instead of her usuall howl. I'm trying something kind of my way but also a little of what carrie said. So i will keep up this way for a while to see how it turns out. So far i think its starting to get to her :] it's still my way, but just a little of what carrie has said about the dog language, and understanding your dog. I watch for her behavior and whatever, if she doesn't bark she comes in to happy me and a treat (her fav thing of all time!) if not then i'm not happy and no treat :(..but positvily training her.

[purrley]

Sleipnir - now that everything has cool off a bit :D :D I must say I've learned a lot by the previous postings. I do agree with Carrie's way a lot and especially with Dixie's idea of positive dog training. Like I said before I don't want my little Tess to think that my hands are to be feared or at all associated with her being bad. I choose to ignore the bad behavior or respond with a firm NO and treat the good behavior - I'll keep ya posted down the line to see if this works - right now nothing really works, she's just a baby but we'll see :D :D

[slleipnir]

Purrley, goodluck. Your dog is also little, and more fragile...lol..josie is pretty big and pure muscle (not saying your dog isn't..just small and young :D) Thats why she gets a swat, she doesn't take my hand as something bad. It must just be something ppl here to, cause i dont know anyone who doesn't, and i guess its diff where you ppl live :]

[carrie]

Audrey, you go girl!!!

Fantastic! I'm so glad you've found a way that works for you both, well done.

It sounds like an ideal method, write it down somewhere - you will be writing your own book one day, that is not a joke, I'm sure of it. You have passion and compassion, love and intense interest in what you are doing.

Keep us posted!

[slleipnir]

awww thanks :]