What do you guys think of this?

[slleipnir]

As I've mentioned before, I've been taking Josie to this guy for help with her aggression. My dad says it sounds really mean, but I don't know. The way I kinda see it is dogs look for leadership, and by doing all this it provides them with a clear perspective as to who the leader/alpha is.

Anyway. First off, he says she should be crated ALL the time to start off, and gradually earn her freedom. So, she comes out (at first) only to eat, use the bathroom and play pretty much. Once she does everything she is suppose to she is allowed more freedom.

Also, her toys are to be taken up (atleast the ones I want to train her with?)

She is not allowed: free food, free treats, free pats,get on the bed or furniture, freedom and a few other things I think. IE, she needs to do something to earn her food, and she only gets it certain times in the day (ie, not out all the time) she has to work for treats, and if she wants freedom (like running off lead at the cottage) she needs to listen to me perfectly first.

It seems so strict. I mean, right now she pretty much does all of those (I'm starting to change things though)

What do you guys think? I took her out there today, and he said she is an excellent dog and that most dogs who come out to him aren't trained at all (she heels perfect, sits, stays, down, etc very well unless there are dogs who she will want ot attack...)

I've learned A LOT about dog behavior so far though!

[CagneyDog]

Originally posted by slleipnir
She is not allowed: free food, free treats, free pats,get on the bed or furniture, freedom and a few other things I think. IE, she needs to do something to earn her food, and she only gets it certain times in the day (ie, not out all the time) she has to work for treats, and if she wants freedom (like running off lead at the cottage) she needs to listen to me perfectly first.


I agree with some of it, but I think there may be more affective ways of training that don't restrict her to that much stuff.

[sammy101]

i agree with most of it,but being in the crate all the time sounds a little harsh,IMO.

[Crikit]

Ah that sounds like the Ruff love program, there's a book for sale on line at one of the agility sites that details a program very much like the one you described.

It's the type of program that depending on the dog either has to be fully implemented or just slightly followed. A lot of the people that I do the dog sports with (myself included) seem to do at least some of the things that the program recommends. For example the goonies hardly ever get free treats they usually have to do something for it even if it's just a sit or a down and most of the time I wait for them to at least sit before they get feed their meals.

[cali]

NILIF is supposed to be a good methode, I use it to an extent if things start going out of hand however I will NOT got the whole way, I will go no farther then having them do something before eating and before I throw a toy. I am into suzanne clothier, she advocates parterships, she says dogs know damn well that people are not dogs lol I find her methods to really work and my dogs love them, I love them because they truly work lol and they work fast. in her methods walking is the biggest thing, rather then because the "leader" and its my way or the highway attitude she says walking should be a balance between the owner and the dog, it should be fun for both, the dog should not be like "I better walk nice or else" nor should they be thinking "Im off I gotta go go go!" they should be walking together with you because they love you and want to be with you, and you love them and want to be with them. you SHOULD be the leader, but I see no need to go to the extremes, because in a proper realtionship there would not be a problem, if the dog feels they need to be aggressive to protect something show them otherwise by simply taking there collar walking them out of the area and leaving them out of the area until YOU decide they can come back, if they feel they need to protect you, just step in front of them because this says to the dog "you want him you get through me first" for example Happy is aggressive with other dogs, ither other day when a strnage dog ran up to her I put myself between her and the dog, when I did that not once did she even lift a lip, and when the other dog kept jumping in front of us I simply kepy myself between her and the dog and she was Happy, I have never seen her so calm around a strange dog.

[shutterbug0303]

Is Josie aggressive towards you/family? or just others dogs/people? I've never used anything like this, so I don't really know what to say. It seems so harsh if Josie is just having problems with other dogs/people. It is about showing the dogs that you are in charge and will protect them and they need to trust you...but no freedom out of the crate just seems like so much! Like it could cause problems in itself...but like I said, I've never used it, and I'm sure it is a proven training method. It just seems so sad....

Whatever you decide to do, I hope it works out well for Josie and you! I'm sure you'll do great with all of this training! :D

[dukedogsmom]

I think all that is a bit much. I would follow it to a certain extent but I would not keep her crated all the time and keep her toys away. There's a difference between discipline and cruelty and that treatment borders on cruelty.

[IRescue452]

I think its a great method except the constant crating. The way I figure it, if shes going to do something agressive and learn that it is wrong, she has to have the opportunity to do something agressive in the first place.

[slleipnir]

She is only aggressive to SOME dogs, and she barks/growls and some people. It's a nervous thing I believe.

The crate thing is only for a short time, it's not forever...but to me, it seems like a lot......

[finn's mom]

I think it sounds strict, but, I would think it be a good idea to follow the rules 100%. But, I would tell him that you're concerned about certain parts and ask him to be specific as to what purpose crating her all the time really serves. It sounds good to me, though. I would think if you follow the rules, she would earn her freedom pretty quickly, though. It's all about consistency, though. Good luck.

[lv4dogs]

I agree with a lot of what he said.
The only thing I have a problem with is keeping her in the crate ALL the time. That seems quite harsh to me.
The rest is great. NILIF is a GREAT training technique.

[cali]

uhh that wont help nervous aggression, if she is doing it because she is nervous slamming(I dont mean litterally) her into her "place" wont help, she does need you to be her leader but just subtle things like stepping in front of her when you see a strange dog or person just to show her that you will protect her, and she does not need to worry.

[LorraineO]

Crating a dog for punishment is WRONG!!!!!! Even if its not for punishment,, a dog needs to get out and run,,,, Being in a crate for extended periods of time just serves to make an aggressive dog more aggressive IMO... How would you feel being stuck in a small space for hours on end? I think that needs rethinking for sure!!

good luck with changing your babys attitudes!:)

[Dixieland Dancer]

I'm not going to get into this heavy but I do NOT agree with crating the dog all the time. This is not a positive reinforcement training exercise. It is very negative and in my opinion, abusive.

You need to do specific desensitation exercises with her with triggers that make her aggressive. I just kind of wonder (since we're talking about a black lab) what happened in Josies past to create this aggression? This is not your typical lab behavior. :confused:

My suggestion would be to find a behaviorist who uses positive methods. This guy sounds a little too radical in negative training methods for me.

[slleipnir]

That's what I thought. It seems mean...

He says by crating them, you keep them out of trouble and by doing that you're not setting them up for failure. For example, you don't want them on the couch, so if they're locked up, they can't...etc...I duno. I just can't see that I'd ever do that.

[slleipnir]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
I'm not going to get into this heavy but I do NOT agree with crating the dog all the time. This is not a positive reinforcement training exercise. It is very negative and in my opinion, abusive.

You need to do specific desensitation exercises with her with triggers that make her aggressive. I just kind of wonder (since we're talking about a black lab) what happened in Josies past to create this aggression? This is not your typical lab behavior. :confused:

My suggestion would be to find a behaviorist who uses positive methods. This guy sounds a little too radical in negative training methods for me.

She never use to be like this, however, I took her to our dog park a lot, and 3 different trainers have told me that causes a lot of problems for dogs (like causing aggression..)

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by slleipnir
That's what I thought. It seems mean...

He says by crating them, you keep them out of trouble and by doing that you're not setting them up for failure. For example, you don't want them on the couch, so if they're locked up, they can't...etc...I duno. I just can't see that I'd ever do that.

I don't think you're setting them up for success either by having them in a crate all day. When she does come out of the crate (she will have too sometime) what happens if she gets on the couch? Does she get punished? I think, If you don't want her on the couch, then teach her not to go on the couch. If you don't want her on the bed, then teach her not to go on the bed.

Just remember one thing.... Josie is not use to being confined all day and to do so at 6 years of age would be unfair to her. She will not understand what she did to create this harsh change. She can not reason "I'm in my crate so I won't experience failure." Dogs learn more completely if it is a positive training environment and they are rewarded for doing the right thing instead of being punished for doing the wrong thing! If you can't work on desensitation skills with her then before crating her all day, I would just keep her out of the dog park.

I know you really are seeking help but this guy is leading you in the wrong direction. Josie is a sweetheart and she should be loved and rewarded for doing right. Not punished to prevent her from possibly doing something wrong. I am feeling so angry at this guy for even suggesting she be confined all day to her crate that I'd like to punch him in the nose! Now I'm getting aggressive. :mad: I'm glad you are not going to listen to him in this area!

I still think something must of happened at the park to get her to be on the aggressive side. I guess from your post I'm thinking really really aggressive problem. I can't visualize it from Josie and the posts I've seen you make through out her life. I was away for awhile though so I might of missed something. :(

[slleipnir]

I'm confused by it all. I mean, the guy seems to know what he's talking about, and he has some very loyal dogs...but I told him I LIKE having them come up to ME to get pats, I LIKE having them run around.....

They do get to come out, to eat, potty, and play. So they're not there all day long, just a lot longer then I'd want them there I guess. I don't feel comfortable doing it, so I thought I'd get others opinions too....

He's not mean other than that though. He doesn't yell/or hit the dogs in anyway. If they misbehave, they get a stern 'Nooo' and they get a quick correction on the collar (whatever the dog needs). They don't get punished for misbehaving and all that. I totally agree with everything he teaches me, BUT the crate. It seems wrong to me...but I'm still learning this stuff, I tend to believe what people like him say thinking 'they know best'..why I wanted opinions, again lol

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by slleipnir
If they misbehave, they get a stern 'Nooo' and they get a quick correction on the collar (whatever the dog needs).

I'm very familiar with what you are saying. I learned to train dogs originally with the pop and choke method many many years ago. However, I have since come to realize that this is not the best way to train a dog. They learn more quickly and thoroughly with positive training methods such as clicker training or just rewards based training for doing correct behaviors.

The main problem with pop and choke is that the dog is learning how to avoid being choked instead of realizing if I do this it makes her happy and I get a treat! The behavior in the long run is learned instead of learning how to avoid a correction. The biggest problem I find with positive training is that some owners never fade the reward from the teaching scenario and the dog only performs when food is around. The reward is only used for shaping the behavior and then only used occassionally to reinforce the behavior. It is faded gradually though, not abruptly.

My suggestion would be to find a trainer who uses only positive training techniques. You and Josie will both be a lot happier in the long run! This guy you are going to now is still in the dark about new training methods.