Protectiveness

[jennifert]

I have an issue with Duncan I think...He is very protective of me and a bit aggressive about it. Too put it mildly I think!! This is an example:

I've been staying at my boyfriend's house for the last week or so while my house gets painted. This morning, we were sleeping and his roommate came in the room all angry about something (the dirty dishes I think...whatever) Anyway, the bed is near the door and Duncan usually sleeps in front of the door. I have told the roommate numerous times NOT to come in the room if we are sleeping or even laying down because Duncan has been aggressive towards him before when he does. In the past Duncan has just put the roommate's hand or arm in his mouth, put himself between me and the "offender" and leaned on him. (Duncan is very big and the roomate is very short 5' even I think) Well this morning, Jerrod (the roommate) came in quickly. louldy and angrily! Duncan jumped up, snarling and growling and bit Jerrod in the arm. The bite punctured the skin. The roommate immediately reached out and punched Duncan in the head.:mad: :mad: :mad: ( I can't put enough of those there to express how angry I was and still am. Duncan let go, backed off. I jumped up, yelling at Jerrod to get out and a few other things I can't repeat. :mad: :mad: :mad:
I know Duncan was just trying to protect me from this vicious monster of a midget but I can't have him biting everyone who comes near me! I thought it was just this roommate that he didnt' like. (I don't either and maybe Duncan sensed that) But I have another example:

Coming into the building about an hour ago, Duncan and I were outside the door looking for my key. A man started to come out the door, stopped when he saw Duncan. I grabbed hold of Duncan's leash tighter and moved out of the way. The man made eye contact with Duncan and when he walked out the door, Duncan started barking at him and lunged at him. He only acts this way when strange people come towards me. A few months ago we were at an outside flea market and this wierd guy started talking to me and Duncan put himself betwen me and the guy, his hair went up on his back but he didn't do anything, just stood there looking at the suspicious stranger. It worked and the stranger went away. (Like I've said before, Duncan looks like a big floppy mop with his long hair and dangling ears but he is VERY LARGE and looks even bigger when he's angry!) I can read the signs now when he is suspicious. I can see the way he stands and the look on his face. It's nice that he is trying to protect me but I can't have him biting people who come near me. He doesn't do it to friends, my boyfriend, my family, just strangers and this roommate. I'm just concerned that it will progress as the instances of this behavior seem to be happening more and more frequently. He's such a good dog. He doesn't like yelling or slamming doors and he gets almost sheepish when that happens. It's like it takes all his courage to protect me when he needs to and he steps in all angry. I can almost feel the anger vibrating off his body sometimes. Whenever we are in mixed company, he stands and or sits betwen me and the person he doesn't know. My mother said that when she was growing up she had a GSD that started this way and eventually got so bad that they had to get rid of her because she wouldn't even let my grandmother near my mom or her brother. I don't want this to happen....:( I've very concerned about this. I've been worrying over it all day long.....:( Any suggestions, advice, similar situations and solutions....Anyone? Carrie? Anyone?

Sorry for being so longwinded and leaning on you guys all the time. I guess I just need more support raising this dog and everyone here has always been able to help so much! My friends here in Syracuse don't have dogs and they don't take me seriously when I mention things such as this. You're all I've got!! :( :)

[slleipnir]

Don't know a lot. Here is my sugestions. Do you have a gental leader for him?? If your out on a walk and someone comes up to you and you figure he'll end up barking or whatever. Stop and sit him beside you, and tell him to stay while your talking to the person. Use the gental leader to keep him there. Someone told me that once..don't know if it will work. Would it help maybe it the person made a fist and put their hand out slowly talking gentaly to him so he knows that they won't hurt you?? or would he think its someone trying to grab him?? or whatever lol.. i mean like put the fist below his head so he doesn't think its trying to hit him..sorry i dont knwo a whole lot..goodluck with it!

[KYS]

If your boyfriend doesn't have a lock on his bedroom
door, I would go to the local hardware store and put
one on. This will keep the other roomate out of his room
with-out permission. In my humble opinion Duncan was
protecting you, when this threating person barged in your
room with out any warning. I am surprise
Duncan did not warn first before a bite occurred.

When you grab Duncan's leash tighter you are sending
a negative signal out to him that something is wrong.
It actually makes him more aggressive.
Now that you know Duncan will bite you MUST
protect Duncan, and others from this happening again.
In my state we have no free dog bites.

If you haven't taken Duncan to training classes,
I would consider going, and also train/socialize him
outside of classes on a daily basis.
That does not mean that strangers need to pet
him, only that lunging and growling in public
is not acceptable just because somebody walks past you.

One of my dogs is animal aggressive, and people weary.
He has never bitten anybody but I also am very careful
not to get in a situation where this might happen.
You always need to think one step ahead of any possible
situation before something might happen. : )

[jennifert]

Thanks for the advice. Duncan loves people usually. I dont' know why certain people bother him. :confused: He goes to the dog park and plays fine. He's wonderful with my nieces. I am worried about him. New York is a one free bite state but if you read my post a while back, he has already bit the neighbor who stuck his hand in the door. ( I think it's called HELP Dog Bite!) The guy at the doorway may have been my fault because I'd never seen him in the building before and he was a little "scruffy" looking. And he scared me because I looked up and there he was all of a sudden. Duncan probably sensed that. After I posted that, a neighbor girl that Duncan likes came to the door. I opened it and was talking to her and her boyfirend but she didn't come in. I was holding Duncan's collar so he wouldn't go out the door. He barked at her and I told her about the dog bite this morning. Her STUPID boyfriend!! (Actually a local celebrity who is known for his love of dogs and his charity work for them!) was kind of sticking his finger in Duncan's face while we were talking. After a few minutes, Duncan had enough and lunged at him too!! I dont' think he feels well tonight. maybe he's just being cranky today? I hope that hit on the head didn't hurt his ear or anything? His nose is dry and he's just laying around...
Anyway, I'll try your suggestion. We can go to a local walking path here and see what transpires. He always lunges after other dogs, not angrily but he wants to meet them and play. He sniffs them, then does the play posture. He isn't aggressive when I'm not here per my boyfriend. Only when I'm involved. Does he sense something maybe? Anyway, thanks for the input. You have akitas right? They're beautiful dogs but they can be aggressive also can't they? I work for an insurance company and they are on our DO NOT INSURE list. STUPID LIST!!!

[KYS]

I am overly cautious with my dogs and never
put them in a situation that might hurt them
or others.
It is a shame about some insurance companies not
insuring certain breeds. Any dog can bite and my thinking is:
It's not the dog that is bad, but the people that
own them can make them dangerous.

P.S. Our family owned a very protective GSD about 25 yrs.
ago. Best trained dog, but extremely protective.
Training, socializing, and being careful really pays off. :D

[carrie]

I totally agree with everything KYS has told you. Being aware of the possibility of Duncan reacting in an aggressive way and preparing for it is vital. You can never let your gaurd down on this one.
Training classes are a good idea too, you need to have superb control with a dog like this.
You also need to get dominance over this dog. Duncan is making the decisions here and it he shouldn't feel it is up to him who you are allowed contact with. Control and respect are lacking and the dog will bite again.
This is one of the few situations where real physical correction has a place and it is needed. Along with increasing your control and dominance you must make it clear to Duncan that this behaviour is unacceptable. Any sign of this must be corrected very strongly indeed - the pack leader does not allow lower ranking idividuals to instigate fights. If they did the pack would fall apart. Any low ranking animal attempting to instigate a fight is dealt with quickly and very, VERY strongly.

As for your boyfriends roommate......it is unforgiveable for him to come into someone's bedroom without permission, dog or not!! If he is not socially aware enough to know this you need to lock the door!! Put a very large notice on the door too -"KNOCK and WAIT!"

[jennifert]

Duncan does not seem to be getting any better on this issue and I'm sure it relates to my other issue of my roommate and her dog! Duncan is definitely a dominant dog! He pushes Jack around all the time now. Anyway, that's a different topic...
This past weekend I had some friends over for a get together. Everyone that came in the house said hello to Duncan, patted him on the head or acknowledged him in some fashion. EXCEPT for 2 girls. Both cringed away from him and both of them he tried to bully. He wouldn't let them near me and would guard the doors of the room I was in and not let them in. He never took his eyes off of them the whole time they were there. BUT ONLY THOSE 2!! He was fine with everyone else and would even play a little as long as those 2 didn't move! He didn't go after them with bared teeth and growls, more like a subtle "Keep Away from Mom" stance, a body shove, small little things....I dont' know what to do....I know he needs to stop but I do not know how....I have to go now...I'll post something more descriptive and with my efforts and results as soon as I can so I can get some more advice!! Thanks!!

[Dixieland Dancer]

If you do not know what to do then you need to be taught. Check into an obedience school that deals with aggressive behaviors or hire a behaviorist to teach you. This is not a thing you want to play around with if you want to keep Duncan safe. If he does bite someone and they report it then you may lose him to animal control. I know this is not what you want to hear but you need to learn to be the alpha over Duncan, or else!

I would be curious to hear what you did to correct the situation with the two girls.

[carrie]

I agree with Dixieland Dancer wholeheartedly.

This situation is already out of your control - thank goodness you recognise that and are so willing to rectify it!

I can be of little help to you over the internet on this as without being able to demonstrate the techniques and actually watch you with the dog it is impossible to be effective enough fast enough.

Let's make no mistake - you have the beginings of BIG trouble on your hands.

In your favour you have an open ear and mind, determination and loyalty and love for your dog.

I STRONGLY advise you to seek a behaviourist.
If anyone you contact says that the dog is being over protective of you - you do not want that person to fix your problem.
Find someone who will work on the pack order and help you get the dog to accept his place.
I also believe that you need some form of physical control - keep the dog muzzled when there are other people in the house until you are certain you can control his behaviour and invest in a prong collar and learn how to use it properly.

You CAN overcome these problems but you must have guidance and more help than I can give in this situation over the internet.

Good luck, you CAN do it! Do seek help as soon as you can and please let us know how you get on - I will be thinking of you.

[yorkster]

I know what you are going through. :eek:
About 10 yrs. ago I had a GSD who became very protective of me. I absolutely LOVE those dogs- so regal and smart. But.....it was difficult. We finally had to take him to a obedience place where we left him for about 6 weeks. This was a place that specialized in 'aggresive' behavior in dogs, and was quite exspensive.
It worked and was worth it because this was a very special dog to me. ;) However, it was almost impossible for me to keep up on, since I am too affectionate with my animals and had this tendancy to tense up when we were in situations where he could act-up.

It ended up being a constant worry for me when people were around.
What Carrie and KYS say is true. If you are a strong leader, and take the alpha role, it should be okay someday. I know it is difficult to NOT tense up in certain situations, but it helps a lot. I was never very good at it.

I think in my situation, I should have started working with him before things got bad. Don't wait like I did!
Good Luck to you.

[purrley]

Jenn - I agree that you have a time bomb on your hands. It's just a matter of time before Duncan bites the wrong person and then the you know what will hit the fan and you could find yourself in a courtroom facing a tremendous amount of expense and your poor Duncan will be the sufferer of it all. For the sake of Duncan - get him to a professional for the training he needs. Good Luck!!!!!

[jennifert]

Thank you to everyone for your responses. I'm sitting here crying now because I know you are all right and I appreciate the concern, attention and advice you have all contributed. I also feel sad because I feel so close to Duncan and love him very much. It feels like I am betraying him by agreeing to take him to professional training. I know that is silly to feel and is not true but...Anyway, I will call some trainers and behaviorists today. I don't have a lot of money and I know that many of these professionals are expensive. There are some obedience classes that are less expensive but I don't think these would be very helpful. From the sounds of it, he needs one-on-one, hands-on training. I'll give some a call and let you know what I find out.
Thanks again to everyone for all of your help!


I would be curious to hear what you did to correct the situation with the two girls.
I guess I didn't really do anything! He stayed away from them as long as they were sitting still. If I left the room he came with me. If they left the room, he tried to follow so I made him stay with me. I told him NO when he tried to bully the one smaller girl by pushing her.


However, it was almost impossible for me to keep up on, since I am too affectionate with my animals and had this tendancy to tense up when we were in situations where he could act-up.

Yorkster: This is how I feel! The more we encounter situations where I think he MAY act up, the more nervous I become that he will and then the more likely he is to do so. I'm scared to bring him out or bring people over now!

[purrley]

OH JENN - please don't feel like you're betraying Duncan - you're actually doing this for the love of your sweet boy. Duncan obviously loves you very much and because you love him, you want him with you for a very long time. He and you would benefit loads from a little professional training and granted it probably will be quite expensive, but pay off two fold in the long run;) You'll learn a lot about Duncan and he'll learn a lot about you - it will be fun, I just know it:)

[sabies]

You're doing a great thing by getting training for Duncan do not be upset about that!!! If you don't train Duncan he will be truly out of control so this is what he needs.

I had an aggressive foster dog for a short time, short because submissive me and submissive Sadie were more his prisoners than caretaker and friend. I found a group in yahoo that dealt specifically with aggressive dogs. You need to go to http://groups.yahoo.com, register with yahoo or sign in if you are registered there, and search for the group "agbeh" (for aggressive behavior). You would then have to go thru a membership process that takes about a day. This is a great group that gives great tips on dealing with your dog, how to understand his behavior and adjust yours. The tips come from trainers and only positive reinforcement recommendations are permitted.

This option is free, and can add to the help a trainer in person gives you. They may even know of a trainer in your area.

Good luck, you can do it, and in the meantime take any preventive measures you can think of such as wearing a muzzle (Duncan that is) and locking the door to keep out the monster midget!

[jennifert]

Sabies, I joined the group! Thank you so much for the support and for recommending the group. :) I know that ultimately Duncan will be happier because he won't feel so stressed about having to watch out for me all the time...I called some trainers and left messages. I can't get phone calls at work so I left my voice mail number and asked them to let me know when would be a good time to get in touch...I know the one guy charges $100 for an inital consultation so I guess I better start saving up some money for the training sessions...

Thanks for your help and I'll keep everyone posted on what I find out!

[purrley]

JENN - good for you and Duncan!!!! $100.00 consultation - WOW I'm I in the wrong business - I knew that anyway:D :D

[carrie]

COME ON NOW!!!

You and me both know that you can do this.

You are nearly there on your own - you almost know what needs to be done.

You are getting into the foggy area of how you feel about the dog in human terms and what you know the dog needs as a dog. We have spoken of this.
You have a dog that is in need of quick and strong direction.

I KNOW that you have the right insight - you have the right instincts - you KNOW that this dog, at the moment, can not be your pampered pooch.

You are trying to do three things with the dog and I KNOW that you know how to fix this!


From tomorrow, treat the dog as a dog. He can only be your best dog friend - not your best human friend - and only when he behaves like a dog!
Look in the eating problem discussion and follow the suggestions - especially the eating out of the plate first.
Ignore the dog at ALL times - until it has settled for at least ten minutes - that is , laid down and not looking at you. Then ask it to come, ask for a sit - if it does give a small reward and then ignore (keep off the food rewards, use gentle,calm voice and a gentle stroke - limit the praise to the action - sitting is easy so low grade praise).
Your room mate must also see how serious this has become and you MUST have her help in sorting this out.


This is a dominance issue - methods that state they will correct an over protective dog may work but they do not get to the core of the problem.
Anyone who is not prepared to show you how to correct this dog in a physical manner, properly, is wasting your time and money in my opinion.
You will see results with positive only training - but you really need to have a back up plan with a dog like this and you need to know how to do it fairly.

I say again - you can do it!
I wish I was there!!!!

Also - thinking of you - remember to learn something every day!
In one way you are unlucky to get such a dominant and unsocialised dog.....in another it is a sign that if you can sort this out - and YOU can - it will change your life.

Any time, anything, whatever - if you want to ask a "dumb" question or have a moan - if you are feeling bad, good - anything...email me, private message me - you are too good to let one hard dog stop you!

[jennifert]

Carrie, Thank you so much for the encouragement!!! Pleae don't get mad at me!! :( :) I went home last night and watched Duncan rather than interacted with him. He is so BOLD! And remember when you asked if Jack was destroying things in the house or biting himself? Well, I got home last night and there was garbage strewn all over the house and Duncan was in his crate....So it's started.... My roommate is not being supportive. She refuses to "play along" and Jack is suffering. Duncan bosses him around almost constantly now, in and out of the house. Anyway, I called an animal behaviorist named Eric Louis. He runs a place called Seven Valley Pet Services. My vet recommended him and he seems really nice. I tried to explain everything on the phone just now but it's so hard.... I made an appointment with him for Saturday February 16th at 9:30. He's coming to the house to meet Duncan, Kate, Jack and I. I wish it was sooner but he is booked for this coming weekend. Thanks again for the help, advice and encouragement! I'm sure I will learn a LOT from this experience! I'll keep everyone posted!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Jennifert, You are doing the right thing. While I'm sure it's not something you are looking forward to doing, realizing it is something you must do and going through it shows how much you love Duncan!

Just as Carrie said, YOU CAN DO IT! One thing you may want to do now too is to put Duncan at the end of the recognition list. When you get home go about your business of greeting everyone in your home but Duncan. Wait about 10 minutes or so and then if he is calm, acknowledge him with a calm greeting. Show him NO favoritism. Feed him last, talk to him last, DON'T let him sleep in your bed!

Keep us posted on what the behavorist says and most of all GOOD LUCK! You will be in my thoughts and prayers.

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

Jenni, I just now got to reading your post. I am so sorry you are having to go through this, but am confident that you will succeed. You love Duncan so much and he loves you back. He will be eager to please you and training will help you both.

I was having issues with Drake being aggressive and went to a trainer. I had to make arrangements to leave work early every Tuesday and drove for about an hour to go to the classes. Not to mention the bundle of $$$$ I had to pay.

I was in denial for the longest time and with the encouragment and comment of some Pet Talkers, I admitted we had a problem. It didn't help that Drake is almost my size and so much stronger than me. after a few months of meeting and working with a behaviorist/trainer, things were much better.

Drake is still protective of me, but is much less aggressive. I am always ready for anything he may do. When we are out in public, I am sure that he can not be hurt or hurt anyone. It has been difficult for me since Andrew had been the ALPHA and we had to reverse roles with Drake coz Andrew was leaving.

Once again, don't be sad or discouraged. You are doing what is best for Duncan. Good luck and let us know how things go!

[carrie]

Hopefully when your room mate hears what the behaviourist has to say she will see things differently.

Give yourself a BIG treat today - you deserve it! You should be feeling really proud of yourself for taking control of a very difficult situation like you have. (I am feeling really proud of you!) You have a fantastic drive to do the very best for these dogs and they are very lucky that you are there for them.

Well done - I am looking forward to hearing about your progress.

Now - go treat yourself!

[Logan]

Jenn, I have nothing to add but compliments to you for realizing that there is a problem and taking the appropriate steps to remedy it. I know, without a doubt, that you love your Duncan (almost called him Drake :o ) . I'm with you in spirit. :)

Logan

[sabies]

Keep in mind this whole time that Duncan is a dog and you have to think the way he does. I had trouble with Sadie eating - I thought she didn't like her food, or she was upset about something and needed hugs or she wouldn't eat. I was wrong - she didn't eat cause she is submissive and will not eat when I am in the room. So I ignored her (thanks to Carrie's suggestions), it felt rude, but it wasn't - she ate well.

My point is, be careful how you interpret Duncan's feelings - learn to think like a dog. Don't feel bad if you have to act "heartless" or "uncaring" - Duncan is not going to think you don't care! It helped me when I realized that.

[LoudLou]

HANG-IN THERE! We are all here for you. Your doing great.:D

[jennifert]

Well, First I want to apologize for the delay in getting back and posting an update on the situation with Duncan! I no longer have access to a home computer and it's been crazy here at work. I also went to Florida for a week to visit family so I haven't had too much progress to report until recently. He is doing fantastic so far!! I have nothing but optimism and hope for the future!
The behaviorist/trainer came and stayed for about 2 hours at the house. My roommate learned quite a bit I think!!! ;) This man is a fan of the Gentle Leader as a training tool. I had one for Duncan and have used it with him on walks for a while now because he is so strong, he has actually pulled me down in the street trying to chase something! Anyway, we put it on him and he showed me something really interesting: (Carrie, you've probably seen this before!!) He had Duncan sit next to him with the gentle leader on and had my roommate Kate and I walk around, knock on the walls, open and shut the front door, let jack in and out etc. The whole time he made Duncan sit. Duncan of course, kept trying to get up and Eric would pull on the lead and tell him to sit immediately. THEN!, the interesting part, Duncan started to lie down!! And my initial thought was "Oh good, that's even better, maybe he's calming down and realizing that he has to stay right there while the rest of us run around the house trying to distract him!" But then Eric pointed out to me (duh!) that HE didn't ASK Duncan to lie down!!!!!!!!! Duncan just decided that since he couldnt' stand up, he would try an alternate plan and lie down!!! Isn't that amazing!!! He's so smart, he's just stubborn, like his Mom!! He has made HUGE advances with his training now! He will heel and sit down when I stop. He will lie down and stay and I can step right over him. He still needs work on so many other things but I am so proud of him. He learns what I want so fast and does it so well!!!! I need to work more with him on coming when called, especially outside at the trail we go to and on sitting and staying when I open the front door to let Jack in or out.
And the aggressive behavior, the one you've all been waiting for I'm sure!! :) ):
He still doesn't like when people reach out towards me, for ex. to shake my hand or hand me something. And he still leaps at the neighbors and snarls and growls. BUT, we're taking baby steps and getting better. He will walk down the street now and if people pass us, I make him sit and talk to him and he pays attn to me rather than them! (I even had people comment on how well behaved he is!!) I've been trying the command "friends" with him when someone walks up to me. I haven't had the opportunity to practice it too much yet but will start involving the neighbors one the weather gets warmer and people are outside more.
As for the short roommate of my EX-boyfriend, he is no longer an issue since, the boyfriend is now ex! But it looks like we are on the path to a better well- behaved, well-rounded dog! In fact, now I feel like I should look for more tricks and activities for him because I don't want him to get bored! I have to go now, I'll update on how Jack is handling all this in a few...

[carrie]

I am so pleased for you! It makes all the difference having someone there to demonstrate and explain in person, I hope it really helped your room mate.
Can't wait to hear more!

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

Jenni,

Hope you had a great time in FL. I know that Duncan missed you. I was so happy to read about your progress with Duncan. It is great news! Things will only get better, I am sure. Keep up the good work!

[jennifert]

I just reread my post and realized that I left out an important part! When Duncan tried to lie down, Eric did not LET him because Duncan was making the decision to lie down, not Eric and Eric was the boss! Duncan was just trying to get out of doing what he had been told by trying an alternate to standing up and since he was told to SIT, he needed to remain sitting. Carrie, this goes back to the decision making that Duncan was doing. iI says a lot for his intelligence that he tries one thing and rather than keep trying it and failing, he tries other things. But again, he was making a decision rather than following his leader.
So that said, maybe that whole thing makes sense now from a training perspective!! :D

[yorkster]

Yeah for you and Duncan, Jenifer! :D
You are doing the right thing and doing it well, it sounds like.
Be sure to keep us posted. :)

I know what you mean about your dog doing something that THEY decide is what they want.....when you're tyring to correct a problem:
My dog, Scout, likes to bark alot in the car. I started carrying a water-spray bottle around with me, and give a good squirt when she acts-up. What she started doing is making a whole lot of noise WITHOUT actually opening her mouth or barking. :eek:
It's amazing the noise she can make that way! I think she is thinking "well, I'm not barking!"

Congrats to you & Duncan.

[carrie]

Yes , this is why it is much better if the dog decides that you are a better leader, rather than try to force the fact that you are Alpha onto the dog. If you can get the dog to choose you as the leader you are already winning. Insisting, calmly and quietly, that a sit is what you asked for and nothing else is good enough reinforces standards and authourity - how many people would let it go when the dog lay down? He is staying in one place and is quiet, so what's the problem?
I'm so happy you have found a behaviourist that you can work with so well.

[sabies]

:) :) :)

These tips sound so obvious when you finally hear them but I fell for the old "well I'm being calm and quiet therefore that's good" trick with my dog.

[Cincy'sMom]

I fell for it too. Ralph will correct Sadie if he puts her in a sit-stay and she lays down. I thought, what's the big deal? She is not moving....but now I am seeing that she is only, sorta doing what she is told. That may seem in that situation, but as I sit here and think about, I see why it isn't...what if she decides to only, sorta come and stops in the middle of the street, or something like that. I am slowly learning this dog training stuff....

[jennifert]

Just wanted to add another update on Duncan's aggressive behavior. He seems to be making progress but like I said it's in bits and pieces and not yet consistent.
The Step Forward :

The other night he and I were at my mom's apartment doing laundry. I brough him downstairs with me to the laundry room on his leash but not on his Gentle Leader. When we came out of the laundry room, 2 people were walking down the stairs so I took him to the other side of the hallway to wait until they passed. The man asked if he could pet Duncan. I glanced at Duncan and immediately said no. His posture wasn't "friendly" and he looked wary (Duncan, not the man :) ) The man ended up standing there for a minute looking at us. He must have heard me say Duncan's name because he said something like "well, isn't Duncan a big boy" At that point, Duncan's tail started wagging. So I hesitantly told the man that if he wanted to pet him to stick out his hand for Duncan to sniff. He did, Duncan sniffed it then let the man pet him. A few minutes later, 2 teenage boys walked in and both walked right up to Duncan and put their hands out to be sniffed before they walked by. (BOY was I nervous on the inside at this point!!!!) Duncan did wonderful. He didn't bite or snarl or growl. He even seemed to enjoy the attention!!!


The Two Steps Back:

Duncan and I were outside my house on the front porch waiting for a friend to show up to help with some stuff around the house. This friend had never met Duncan so I had him ready, gentle leader on, calm...:)
So the friend arrives, gets out of the car and says Hi Duncan and comes over. Duncan was fine, friendly, happy, welcoming. (This man has a german shepherd and has no fear of dogs and was aware of the problems I was having with Duncan.) While we were standing outside, the neighbors (2 of them a boy and a girl) came out of their door. Duncan went nuts!!! He started barking and growling at them and lunging. I corrected him with the Gentle Leader and made him sit right next to me. He did but his hair was up, he was tense and still snarling at them. At this point, my friend Tom came over and said something about how Duncan was fine with him. He tried to touch Duncan and Duncan tried to bite him. Again I quickly corrected and since there were now 4 people on the porch and a snarling angry upset 90 lb dog on a leash, I exited the situation and went inside with Duncan.
The neighbors are both very afraid of dogs and I noticed that they were looking him in right in the eye.

I see alot of differences in the situations:
1. I was forcing myself to be very calm in the first one and not put any tension on the leash even though I was more terrified because I had less control over him.
2. The first people were obviously more knowledgeable about how to approach and deal with a possibly aggressive dog.
3. In the second situation, the neighbors were already afraid of the dog.
4. I was at my own house.
5. I was more nervous because of the amount of activity with people coming and going and the untrustworthiness of the neighbors. I dont' trust them not to be a "tough guy" and reach out to Duncan against all my prior warnings not too. Therefore, my tension probably was transmitted to Duncan. Duncan was probably also more "comfortable" acting out in his own "home"

Anyway, I'm proud of him for the first step. Just need to keep working and trying to figure out the "trigger" for the behavior to avoid the second I guess. He just isn't one of those dogs that will be friendly to everyone no matter what! (Like my roommate's golden :) ) He's wary of strangers but I know that doesn't excuse him from his behavior.

He ALWAYS puts himself between me and anybody else, even my roommate when we're just hanging out at the house. My mom is slightly scared of big dogs but she loves Duncan. She says she'll never be able to hug me again though!!! ;) I slept over her place the other night and she came in my room to say goodnight and Duncan went and stood on the side of the bed between her and I. He didnt' DO anything and she kissed us both goodnight but he was still right there. It's almost funny if it wasn't a problem with strangers.

Whew, This is so longwinded! If anyone reads this it will be a miracle! Sorry for going on and on!!!! :D ;) :p I get carried away talking about my Duncan dog.

[Cincy'sMom]

Sounds like Duncan is making good progress, even if he still has some issues. I think the attitude of the other peeople really does make a difference.
Sadie, who is the most submissive dog, will growl and bark when we walk by one of two houses in the neighborhood, if the dogs are out. One house has two labs, the other two rotties. She doesn't do it in front of any other dogs in the neighborhood, no matter how many are in the yard, or how big or small the dogs are. I think she just gets a bad vibe from those particular dogs and feels the need to protect me and Cincy. I guess the difference with her is that once I tellher it is okay, she settles down...hopefully Duncan will get there too!!

Good luck!!!

[carrie]

jennifert - well done!! I'm so glad you are seeing positive results with Duncan. Try to remember that every little thing that happens is helping your confidence in your ability to handle it and this will last you a lifetime. When you feel the situation is too much for Duncan there is nothing wrong with making a tactical withdrawal to a safer distance.
Keep it up - you are doing great.

[purrley]

Jennifert - the progress you're making with your Duncan is super. And what is more super is that you're concerned and putting so much effort into it! I believe Duncan will always be wary of strangers, but he will be able to control it. I think it's great that Duncan loves you so much to want to protect you and that still can happen, but under controlled circumstances. I enjoy reading your posts about the progress you're making and please continue to keep us updated.

[sabies]

Duncan is so lucky to have you so dedicated. Keep up the good work, I'm sure it's not easy.

[Dog Days]

I am the guardian of a dog with tonnes of 'baggage'! Before we adopted her at 8 months old, she spent 4 months in a wonderful foster home, but the first four months of her life living with street kid! She is very mistrustful and protective. Nothing as dramatic as with Duncan, but always the potential to get that way.

Talus (our pooch) has come a long way in the past 12 months that we have had her in our lives. We all have alot more to learn and much more behaviour modifications to make. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately!) this task will be ongoing and a part of every day. It makes us richer for having to make it routine. No, we don't dogs that we can just forget about and assume they will be excellent with everyone and everything, but I love my dog as much as I'm sure you love Duncan and it's worth it.

Our vet (a homeopathic vet) suggested a great book that I ran out an purchased and am currently reading. It is called "Purely Positive Training" by Sheila Booth. I recommend it. Further training and behaviour modification with a trained animal behaviourist will ultimately be the key though. Try contacting them with details via e-mail. This might get you a smidgen of info for free and help to calm your nerves in the interim.

We have just begun to take Talus to her Homeopathic vet. He is wonderful! Talus is still scared of him, but he managed to examine her back leg (without medication) by simply massaging her back and giving her a treat with Rescue Remedy on it. He wants to see about treating Talus' behaviour imbalances with Homeopathic remedies. He just finished treating a dog with agressive behaviour and says that the dog is at least %50 less aggressive than before the remedies.

Just something for you to think about. Another thing to consider is feeding Duncan on a raw meat and veggie diet. I think it has helped Talus quite a bit over feeding her kibble. Ya, they both cost a bit more than the usual methods but well worth it when it comes to your 'baby'!

Try contacting sierrak9.com for information on behavioural issues. This person is a trainer of police dogs and worked with our dog in the very beginning.

Food for thought, hope it helps. :) Lisa

[carrie]

Total fan of the raw diet - bit worried about how much you are doing in one go......

Change one thing at a time - or else you won't know what is working for your dog.

[Dog Days]

Appreciate the advice. We are currently working on getting Talus back to normal (after ligament surgery), don't want to rush her on anything else as we are focusing on her rehab at the moment. Another month and we will be able to get back into our 'regular' routine of playing with other dogs, going on long hikes and playing frisbee or Kong in the park. Until then, she still has no outlet for her energy (being that she is still only allowed leash walks and no running) You know what they say, a tired dog is an obedient dog. Give them an outlet for their energy and they will be better behaved (provided you both have done good training!)

Found out last weekend that our lovely pooch pal - Talus, didn't exactly start her life on the street with a street kid. Fact is that she was rescued from the street kid at 4 months old from a drug dealer!! Apparently the street kid saw how badly she was being abused and needed to take her away from that situation before she died at the hand of the drug dealer. She only lived with the street kid for a couple of weeks. This definitely shed's new light on the behaviour thing! We are grateful for that street kid who rescued her and through the channels, has ended up as part of our family! We are all richer for being in each others' lives. Even if it's an uphill climb all the time!

Happy tails everyone. Lisa

[Dixieland Dancer]

Talus reminds me of Kay Ann's Simba sort of! :cool:

[Dog Days]

Dixie and Dusty,

Where is a picture of Kay Ann's Simba? I would be curious to see a pooch that resembles mine. I don't see too many that do!

I totally agree with your quote!

Cheers, Lisa :)

[Dixieland Dancer]

You can find pictures of Simba all over Pet Talk. Kay Ann blesses us with his wonderful picture quite often and she takes excellent photos. I always enjoy the pictures of her handsome boy!

Here is one link. Simba pictures (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9833)

ENJOY !!! :D :D :D

[jennifert]

I haven't updated on Duncan's progress in quite some time but I do have some exciting news....

A few weeks ago, I took Duncan to this event called the "Blessing of the Bikes" Basically, all these people with their Harley Davidsons meet at one location and drive to a church to have their bikes "blessed" for the season. Well I am a huge fan of Harley Davidsons so I wanted to go down and see them. I took Duncan with me so that he could get out of the house on a beautiful day and we could spend some time together.

We went down to the street and there were about 1000 bikes there and twice the amount of people. I had his Gentle Leader on him. We walked down the street looking at the bikes and talking to people. It was crowded at some points and people of course, wanted to pet him. He did so fantastic!!!!!!!!!! :D :D
He let people pet him and he stayed right next to me the whole time. He was calm and friendly and really seemed to enjoy himself!! The only time he became aggressive at all was when he saw a cat in a storefront window!

Next to the street is a big park and Duncan and I went up on the hill to watch all the bikes leave. Now there are 2000 bikes starting their engines! It was so loud. Guess what Duncan did...nothing! He just lay down next to me and watched!! Even when a lady came over with a small dog, he just watched it....Kids came over to play with him and he loved it, even rolling on his back for a belly rub while 3 children pet him!!!

I am so proud of him I could scream!!! He has improved 2000% in the last few weeks. Of course, I'm always cautious with him and there are certain people I will just never let him around off leash. My sister's boyfriend being one of them. I "dislike him immensely" and I think Duncan does too!!!

Anyway, I hope I didn't jump the gun here but he seems to be doing really well and becoming more confident in himself and me everyday!

Maybe we can close this thread.....I better not say that yet huh....
Thanks to everyone for all your support!!!

[yorkster]

Great news! :) You and Duncan worked hard and it all paid off. It's not easy to do, so you should feel proud!

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

Such great news Jenni! I knew you guys could do it!

One another note, I too love Harleys! In fact, Andrew and I are looking at purchasing one. Mom laughs at us and says we do not look like bikers.

[anna_66]

Oh, that's so wonderful to hear he did so great! I have to add I've always loved Harleys, and the sound of all them starting up at the same time, just gives me chills!

[Dixieland Dancer]

GREAT NEWS!

You deserve a round of applause ! Duncan deserves a special treat. Maybe a FROSTY PAW!!!

[Logan]

What marvelous news, Jennifer!!!! :D :D :D I'm going to have to go back a re-read this whole post soon, and see if I can get any tips on helping Honey to be more comfortable around crowds of people and children. :( I dare not take her into large group settings because she has been known to growl and is visibily uncomfortable. Nothing would make me happier than to be able to include her on our trips to Petsmart, the park, etc. You have given me some new hope that we may overcome some of this too!!

Hugs to Duncan, that handsome boy!! :D

[Dog Days]

Jennifer and Duncan, that is a wonderful victory! I applaud both of you because I know how very difficult it is. Way to go. Keep up the great work!

My pooch - Talus has had one dose of a homeopathic treatment (2 weeks ago) I can't remember what it is called?! I have her with me at work and I think I have been seeing some progress. She is more relaxed and less likely to react right away to different stimuli. In fact, situations that used to make her bark and get all edgy are now mere things to observe for her. Of course this makes it all easier. We are all much more relaxed and less tense. We will see her vet in another 3 weeks and see if in fact it has helped.

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

Cheers,
Lisa & Talus:D

[yorkster]

Dog Days,
I would be interested in what it is that you are giving your dog, and where you can get it :)

[Dog Days]

Yorkster,

Well, I can't remember what it's called but the best route, if you are thinking of using something like that is to start taking your pooch to a Homeopathic Vet. Due to the homeopathic principle of 'like treats like', you can actually cause symptoms if you give the wrong remedy or conversely, you can overdose and cause more severe symptoms. I would also suggest picking up a small book called 'Beyond Flat Earth Medicine', which is a basic look at Homeopathy (generic - human and animal) It gives a good overview of homeopathy, it's principles, some case studies and is quite enlightening without being too medical or too expensive (about $15 Canadian)

I'm sorry I can't be of anymore help - I could look up in my files or (ask the vet) what he gave her and get back to you.

I'm not sure if I mentioned the process we went through with the vet to determine what remedy to try Talus on first? We compiled a case history of Talus' life from as early as we knew until now. We told our vet how she reacts to different situations, how she reacts differently in the same situation without the same factors involved (ie: when we are with her or not) He inquired about her diet (he treats animals on raw food diets), past traumatic experiences, etc. This took about 45 minutes. Our vet analyzed her information and then gave us the remedy about a week later. It is quite an involved process to determine what remedy to start with. Often the first remedy might not be the one that works and you may have to try a couple of others. This can take time (over a few months.) It is so worth it in the end (if it works) because all of a sudden your pooch becomes more managable and less likely to react at the first sign of a stressful situation. When the people in your life, anyone who knows your dog and has seen the past behaviour, tells you that your dog is much calmer and seems happier - WOW, it makes all the difference. You and your dog start having a better relationship also!

Thanks for asking and if I can help anymore, let me know.

Cheers,
Lisa & Talus:D :D

[yorkster]

Thank you Dog Days for the info- it all sounds very interesting :)

My dog is quite well behaved, EXCEPT for one thing that is very annoying: she absolutely goes nuts in the car :eek: Always, she does this, whether we are going 3 miles away or 500!
About a month ago we went down to the Oregon coast, which is about a 8-10 hour trip, and she (Scout) drove us crazy!!! Once we were there she was the good girl that she usually is, but getting there was...................ACK!!!
I've tried it all, and nothing seems to make much difference. The water-spray bottle helps a bit, and she has learned to not bark, however she has figured out how to make alot of noise without opening her mouth- it's unbelievable the noise that comes out of her still :eek:
Do you think some natural type meds would help with this?

Again, thanks for the reply & info. :)

[Dog Days]

Yorkster,
I think it is definitely worth a try! I am totally sold on the Homeopathic treatments, so much so that my husband and I are going to start going to a Homeopathic Practitioner ourselves! Why put man-made chemical substances into your (or your pooches) body if you don't have to?! Not sure if it will work for Scout's issue but it can't hurt to look into it and if it works, it's money well spent and peace of mind knowing that you did the best thing for your dog.

Good luck and let me know how it goes.

Cheers,
Lisa & Talus

P.S.: The remedies don't cost that much (about $10 a vile- which can last up to about 1 or 2 weeks worth of doses) The initial consultation and the remedy consultation are a bit pricey ($90/each) but Talus only needed one dose of the remedy, once ($9) She may need more in the future but it is still relatively cost effective in my opinion.:)