Help with Potty Training

[shais_mom]

I need help potty training Keegan.
She gets that she has to poop outside and we have only had one accident with that since the beginning of Sept. Yet she doesn't get that she has to pee outside. She barks at night when she is in her crate to tell me she needs out, but whenever she is in the house and she has to go she just squats and goes.
I must stress that I do not rub her nose in it, b/c I know that correction is old and no longer used. So I don't think it is out of fear.
Today she was outside for about 20 min and was in the house less than 5 min and peed on the rug.
My neighbor has a golden and a pom and she said that for both of them they "got" it at about 5 mos. But I know other people can have them trained in just a few weeks. I don't know what I am doing wrong. And its not that I am missing her signals all the time either, when I see her sniffin I take her out, but other times she will be walking by me and boom there is a puddle.
Thanks!

[jennifert]

Potty training....Oh will it ever end? When she pees in the house and you clean it up, what do you use? It could be that she smells her previous booboos and thinks she should pee there. I used some stuff called Nature's Miracle that I got at PetCo. It "supposedly" removed the odor from the carpet so they wouldn't keep returning to the same spot. I don't know if it did. I couldn't smell anything but how would I know if Duncan can? He learned very quick. We went out alot and often. I always said "do you have to go outside?" rather than "let's go outside" which I reserved for walks. Also, when he was peeing, I repeated "Hurry up" over and over again. Now he's at the point where if I say Hurry up, he'll pee immediately! It works well, as long as I don't tell my boyfriend to Hurry up! in the house while Duncan is within earshot!;)
How old is Keegan? She'll get it! Don't fret! Another thing, always go out the same door to pee. Keep a close eye on her inside so you can catch her "in the act", then quickly pick her up and take her out. For months I didn't let Duncan go in another room alone because I didn't know for sure if he had it. I followed him around the house like a nut! I even took him in the bathroom with me in the morning so he wouldn't be in the living room peeing. Now he thinks he has to go with me all the time!
I don't know if this helps. You probably already know all this but...Good Luck! Be grateful that she has 1/2 of it down. #1 is easier to clean up!

[Pam]

Staci, Bella too got the idea about poop much quicker than about peeing. When she did pee in the house it didn't seem to be in the same place so I don't think it was really a particular smell that she was "hooked" on. We just always gave her a big NO and then took her right outside which I am sure you are doing. Sometimes it just takes a while for it to "click." Then after she had fully mastered that, she used to do what we called little "excitement pees." They would occur when company would come :o and she would be so excited to see them that a little spritz would come out. That has stopped too. Now the only time she has an "excitement pee" is when we arrive at the groomer's. :o Fortunately they tell me that she is not the only one who does this.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Staci, It already sounds like you already know that Keegan really doesn't know outside is for pee. I know you are crate training but my question is how? Anyone who crate trains a puppy correctly should have a completely potty trained pup by 16 weeks at the latest. Most people do not crate train properly because they feel it is NOT FAIR to the pup to be in the crate EVEN WHEN YOUR HOME! Here's my take on it.....

Until the pup PROVES to me that they can potty outside successfully they do NOT get run of the house! When someone comes to me and says they are having problems with the dog going potty in the house then I immediately look to how they crate train.

Proper crate training will endear the dog to the crate and will make it feel like a safe haven and a place of comfort and security and not a place of dread and I can't wait to get out of here feeling!

A new puppy should be taken out even in the middle of the night to piddle every two to three hours. When you open the crate door, IMMEDIATELY, with no stops in between the pup is taken outside. You are to go outside with her and take her to the location in your yard that you want her to piddle. Some people who have fenced in yards do not see the point in going out too, especially if it is cold out but this is very important in the training process. Give the command "GO POTTY" over and over again until she squats and goes. Then give her the biggest fuss and praise party you can to let her know she did good! If she does not potty within 3 or 4 minutes, take her back into the house and PROMPTLY put her in her crate again. In about 5 minutes or so you can repeat the procedure with giving her the Command "GO POTTY" and making the fuss if she does. If not within 3 or 4 minutes do this again and continue until she gets the message. NEVER let her run around the house if she has not pottied. She is always to go back into the crate!

If she does go potty outside then you can bring her into the house and let her roam and play outside the crate. However, if she plays to the point of getting tired and falls asleep, then you should pick her up and put her in the crate again. She may wake up when you lift her but soothe her with soft whispers and put her in the crate anyway. If she stays awake (she may of just taken a 2 second puppy power nap) then take her outside to potty. When she awakes the first thing she will need to do is potty again.

Don't think of the crate as a confinement for the dog. Think of it as a training tool. If you NEVER let her have free roam of the house without going Potty first, Giving her the "GO POTTY" command and making a big fuss over her, she will soon learn "HEY mom likes it when I piddle out here but not in the house"!

Final thought! Even after you think she has it down she may have an ACCIDENT. You are right not to rub her nose in it. However, you are able to correct her from the action if you catch her in the act! Startle her and make a displeasing sound such as "KEEGAN STOP!!" SHAME ON YOU. HOW COULD YOU DO THIS???? as you pick her up and scoot her little butt out the front door. Once she is outside give her the "GO POTTY" command again. Chances are she will look at you like your a nut once she is outside and won't have to potty again so after a few minutes bring her back into the house but put her in the crate. You can hug her and give her comfort when you bring her back in but don't give her free reign of the house again until she successfully potties outside.

NOTE: If you don't catch her in the act then just clean it up and forget about it!

Happy Training!

[mary_jsn]

give her a command to go peeing or pooing when she needs to go, like go potty or do your necessities. Don't let her in until she does it, and may be you should go along with her, 'cause my dog, needs to go with someone to go potty. When she's done praise her a lot like crazy so that she gets that she needs to do her business outside rather than inside. You could also take her out about 2 hours after she has eaten all her food, and before she goes to bed. Good luck with your potty training and i hope this advice helps you and that your dog learns to go potty outside!!

[yorkster]

Oh boy.......I went through this several months ago with a 3 year old dog that I adopted in early July. She had never been house broken (don't know why).

It took probably 3 months to get her trained all the way!
For awhile, I was posting something almost daily on Pet Talk- it was very frustrating! There are a lot of good people here with helpful advice.

What worked for me was first of all to have her on a leash in the house at all times, and make her always be where I could see her. That way she could not go without me seeing her. It seems she did not get the 'connection' unless I actually caught her in the act........then I would take her IMEDIATELY outside and tell her to go potty. When she finally went on command, I praised her a lot. once I finally caught her and took her outside, she was fine. Up until that point, just taking her outside and waiting was NOT enough for her.

And oh, the Natures Mirracle worked well for me.

Good luck!

[slleipnir]

I don't see the problem with rubbing their noses..not in it, but close? Thats how I trained Jo to go outside..my obediance trainer told me to do this. Very soon she was potty trained..can someone tell me why it isn't good??

[carrie]

The problem is...Why are you doing it????????

As we have already discussed, last night , dog poo is not a disgusting mess to another dog. By forcing her face near the mess all you are doing is showing her where she made a mess. This is pointless because she already knows that! You are telling her off at the same time so the only connection the dog can possibly make is that you get excited when she sniffs at her own mess. You are correcting (a very loose definition of the term) her looking at the mess, not doing the mess.

If you catch her DOING the mess - she will connect your reaction to her action.
By pushing her nose into liquid or solid mess (I know you didn't actually do this) you also risk the dog inhaling matter that could do damage to their respitory system. Especially in puppies that have not been through a full worming course you are also going to reinfect them with any parasite they are carrying.

From a training point of view you are also making your hand on the top of her head a threatening object.

It is a pointless excersise and it was not this that house trained your dog - it was the other things that you did, I promise you.

[carrie]

Sorry - can I also make the point that obedience trainers are not always behaviourists or psychologists. They can be great at what they do but usually are working to a system that was learned a while ago and if things are already troubled with the dog or start to go wrong they are not always the people to ask. In the same way your vet will usually know little about behaviour.

Don't get me wrong - I couldn't teach an obedience class, an agility class or operate on a pregnant bitch. Horses for courses, as they say.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by slleipnir
I don't see the problem with rubbing their noses..not in it, but close? Thats how I trained Jo to go outside..my obediance trainer told me to do this. Very soon she was potty trained..can someone tell me why it isn't good??

FIND ANOTHER OBEDIENCE TRAINER!!!!

From an obedience training standpoint I don't know anybody that I work with the accepts the rubbing their noses in it theory! Unless the dog is caught in the act it is useless to do anything except clean the mess up. If your obedience trainer doesn't know this then they need to find another line of work or hobby! Your dogs well being comes from it knowing you are the giver of all good things. You show displeasure if the dog is caught in the act with a disapproving sound and taking the dog outside so it can associate the action with why you are displeased. Knowing you are displeased should be enough "punishment" for the crime! Dogs want to please you and will work to determine why you are not happy with something they did but you also need to understand they can't remember the action you are not happy with actually happened 5 minutes ago.

[slleipnir]

Oook..I was just wondering.
And it's not really just "putting her nose in it", cause it's not. I don't put her nose 'in' it. I show her it (her nose is a respectful distance) and say, No. Then I put her outside. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but if she starts using outside very soon, doesn't that mean it works?? Obediance trainers would obviously know behaviour, thats what they teach you. The whole thing with it, is showing her that "hey when you do this, (then putting her outside) i should do THAT out HERE." She was a pup, and didn't know she wasn't suppost to do this. By showing her that this is were the mess is (like you said) then taking her outside, shows her that the mess belongs outside. It worked, and I didn't shuve her face in the "mess". I didn't "force" her. I would take her to it, and show her, and point to it and say No or whatever then outside. I doubt shes close enough to inhale anything, and besides dogs go out and sniff other dogs crap all the time.

[carrie]

I tried to make the point that dogs don't see poo as disgusting, they see it as a message from another dog - she knows where she put her poo so there is no point showing her where she did it.
She will not connect the fact that it is her poo to the fact that you are un happy UNLESS you catch her in the act of DOING it. There is no way it is possible for her to connect you telling her off while showing her the mess to the act of her making the mess. Dogs quite simply do not work that way.
She learned the house training because you took her out frequently and praised her when she went in the right place.

Obedience trainers do not always know about behaviour, as your trainer has proved! They have learned a system of training that works for the majority of animals. If asked, many will tell you that a dog learns because when it does the right thing it is praised and when it does the wrong thing it is punished. Dogs do learn some things in this way but this is not showing any understanding of behaviour. It is retelling what they have been told. Why would the dog want to do it the right way? Why would the dog get it wrong? When is it fair to correct and for what reason? How can you use body language and natural responses to help the dog?
When a trainer is telling you to house train your dog with the method you used and then manages to convince you that it worked they appear to be very good. They clearly have no understanding of canine psychology or basic behaviour.

[mary_jsn]

I think it's gross rubbing the dog's nose on his poo 'cause afterwards the dog smells you and licks you with the same nose and tongue!:p

[slleipnir]

Mary, I never had that problem because I DON'T rub her nose IN it.

Carrie, I think that maybe, just maybe, not all dogs respond the same way. Maybe someone learned a lot about something, and will figure thats always and only how it goes. Maybe there is different ways. I did that also, after (right after she made the mess). I know if you don't then when you show her she will be like what?? why are you doing this?? Maybe the trainer wasn't the smartest person, it was like 3 years ago, I still think she was pretty knowledgable. She worked well with the dogs, and she tought me a lot about training. Enought atleast to help train a friends dog who couldn't take it with no $. I duno, i'm not really smart enough to know who knows what and which way is better for the dog. I'm sure where you were in high school you weren't knowing everything either. I'm REALLY sorry if this sounds rude, but the way your telling me (which i know is only trying to help, and thank you) but it makes me feel really bad about my dog. All I want is to be good to her, and give her the best home. And it seems everything I do with her is wrong, cause you make it out like "oh, never do that! this is proper". I tried, and i was around 15 at the time I got her, I believed that htis trainer knew what she was talking about, i;ve never trained a dog. I believe there is more then the proper way to do things. By the way you explain dogs behavior, someparts, doesn't even sound like Josie, so I think that the right way, isn't always the best, all dogs are different and have different needs. I wish i could be smarter with it, but I don't need to be smart (dog smarts i mean) to love her. And she definitly gets enough. Please don't take this the wrong way, I don't want it to be like the barking thing, it's just my opinion that thats how I feel. I didn't mean it to offend, if it does then I'll stop asking stupid things

[mary_jsn]

Take it easy, it's nothing to get mad at. Maybe some people do that. I'm not saying that you do that. I might have misunderstood the concept. It's worse, some dogs eat poo. Ringo once ate poo. I was laughing and grossed out at the same time, I didn't let him lick me until afterwards.

[slleipnir]

I'm not mad, it says that at the end of my post if you read it.

[carrie]

I'm so sorry I made you feel like that - I was not talking directly to you but putting my opinion to everyone.
I'm sure your trainer is great at training dogs - all I said is that they are not a behaviourist.
I most certainly don't think you are stupid - I wouldn't spend time replying one to one with someone I didn't think could think for themselves.
You are right that all dogs are different and each has different levels of instinct, different upbringing etc etc.
I do, however, feel that I have to push the point ( I can hear everyone groaning, "No, don't do it!") that the method described for house training does not work, nor can it.
Hope that has cleared things up?

[slleipnir]

Yes, thank you. I do understand where your coming from..I can see it making her see the feces as..well something she can eat or something. I guess thats where she got it. I saw her eat it once, like mary said. It was sooo..not right..ew. But only to the other dogs, not her own. It makes me sick thinking about it. I wasn;t sure how to train a dog when I got her though, and I thought that this trainer would know best, so I was like, hey, if she said it then I guess it should work! She also told me to put their noses right above it. I thought that was kind..well..gross, so I didn't really do it that way. I guess its the same results though. Thanks for telling me.

[Dixieland Dancer]

As an experienced "DOG TRAINER" I would just like to say that teaching dogs obedience is an ongoing learning process. I have never trained two dogs exactly the same way. Even basic concepts change dramatically.

When I first started working with my first dog I was as GREEN as they come. I didn't know anything. That was over 25 years ago and the Koehler method of training was the big thing. Now many dogs later the Koehler method is still used by some but for the most part has been replaced with other methods such as clicker training. I have also moved onto more positive methods. They are more dog friendly and I have better success with them. I also work with several other people on dog training and teach obedience. Every dog I work with is an individual challenge and I learn with them!

To a small degree I believe I understand dog behavior but not enough to offer the invaluable advice that Carrie has in this area. I will stick to training and leave the behavior problems for the pro!

In short, owning an animal is a committment and an ongoing learning process. We all have to start somewhere. The nice thing about PET TALK is that we have a forum where we can discuss the topics that cause us problems and get advice.

Staci, has any of this helped you since you are the original poster of the question?

[purrley]

My Chihuahua is not completely potty trained, but she's well on her way and the way I did it for both poo and pee is consistently taking her outside after play, after eating and at least every hour at first, then every 2 hours. This was alot of going outdoors, but now I think she has the idea really well. However, we do have an occasional accident when I'm not attentive enough to notice the signs. Now she's really good about going to the door when she has to go. However, if I'm not watching her, she will do it on the floor, so I have to keep an eye on her at all times. Only once did I put her nose in her pee and it was one of those days when lots of irritations cropped up and I was not in the best of moods. That only happened once and I really don't believe it did any good.

[carrie]

In the same way - I wouldn't answer questions about the best way to train a dog to sit (no, really - go and have a look at that post... I didn't!) unless specific problems had arisen.

I advise all my clients to practice control and dominance techniques that I suggest and THEN go and find a good class with a trainer they trust.
We, quite simply, don't do the same job.

[shais_mom]

Well, I have been using the "Keegan Shame on You" and saying No. Last night when she did it I whisked her outside and said Go potty and let her sniff around awhile. All the while I am remember someone saying "She is going to think you are nuts b/c she just went!" :)
And I do make a big deal out of when she does go outside. And always give her a small treat when she does do her business like a good girl, but mostly lots of petting and praise.
I know that consistency is the key, and it doesn't seem like every time I turn around now there is a puddle like it was going!!

[purrley]

Shais Mom - you got it - consistency is the key. I've been taking Tess out really, really often since I got her and it's really paying off. She scratches at the door now - I'm so proud and she gets praise, praise and more praise every time she does it. Even when she doesn't ask to go I take it out and almost immediately she squats, I'm not sure she really even goes sometimes, but she always squats:D :D . Probably because she knows that by doing that Mom is going to praise her and kiss her and praise her and kiss her:p

[mruffruff]

Now that she goes to the door, how about hanging a bell where she can reach it ? She won't scratch up your door and you can hear it from another room.

[purrley]

Tess is pretty smart, but I don't think she's smart enough to ring a bell:D :D

[RachelJ]

Staci, I know you have to leave Keegan for a period of time while you are at work. What does she do for potty during that time? I guess my question is assuming that she can't hold it all day and either pottys in the house or in her cage? Is this the case? If so, it may be that it will take much longer to help her associate that pottying in the house is NOT the thing to do.

Not to imply that this would be the sole source of the problem because as you know my Hannah was just like Keegan and I was at home all day. And yes Dixie I did try crate training. Never had any problem as long as I kept her in the crate, but I didn't want a dog that lived in a crate, so eventually I would try giving her freedom and that is when despite my best efforts at a regular schedule, out after play, out after meals, out the very first thing in the morning and the very last thing at night, going with her and watching to make sure she went, making a big deal praising when she did go, teaching her the words *go potty* from day one, watching her like a hawk for that sniffing behavior, etc. etc. the puddles would occur just like you describe.

Hannah did drink a lot of water as a pup. I refused to restrict her water. Maybe that would have helped, but I just don't like that idea.

All I can tell you is NOT TO GIVE UP using the practices I describe about. Eventually the wet spots went from one a day to once every few days to one a week to once every other week to once a month, until I was able to say that Hannah was housebroken.
I still have to be very careful with her. She has a tendency to go outside and forget to *go*. I always ask her when she gets ready to come in *Did you go potty?*. If she didn't, she will turn back and go. She is 6 years old now.

[mruffruff]

Purrley, if you help her touch the bell every time you take her outside, she'll soon do it on her own when she needs to go out. And every time she does ring it, you have to take her out.

She really is that smart, if you help her a little.

[shais_mom]

KEEGAN IS DOING GREAT!! SHE HAS HAD MAYBE 5-6 ACCIDENTS IN THE LAST 10 DAYS AND TWO OF THEM WERE DO TO EXCITEMENT WHEN COMPANY CAME OVER! SHE HAS BEEN DOING PRETTY GOOD AT LETTING ME KNOW WHEN SHE HAS TO GO SHE GOES TO THE DOOR AND LOOKS AT ME, THE ONE TIME SHE HAD AN ACCIDENT SHE HAD BEEN OUTSIDE FOR LIKE 20 MIN AND WHEN SHE CAME IN SHE PEED AND SHE DID THAT AT MY PARENT'S HOUSE TOO WHEN THEY KEPT HER OVER NIGHT LAST WEEKEND.
HOPEFULLY HER GRAND FINALE WAS ABOUT 2 WEEKS AGO WHEN SHE PEED ON MY BED!!!!! THAT WASN'T FUN AT ALL! :o :rolleyes: :( :rolleyes:

[Pam]

Oh Staci Bella used to do little "excitement pees" as I liked to call them. She was 100% housebroken but if company came over there would be a little spritz at the door as she ran to welcome them. :o Strangely she hardly ever did this when family members came home. Gradually over time they have stopped. The one place where this still happens is at the groomers. As soon as we get inside, and Linda comes over to pet her and say hello, a little dribble comes out. :o Fortunately Linda says that other dogs do that too. Maybe now she is peeing from stress (?) because I am sure this is not her favorite way to spend an afternoon. :)

Using the bell made me think of my brother-in-law's german shepherd. She asks to go in and out so much that they installed a handle on their storm door at the bottom. She now goes in and out at will, just moving the handle with her paw!

[RachelJ]

Sounds like there is progress, Staci. Just keep in mind that even the worstest dog to house break (Hannah) eventually made it. Yes we had the peeing on my bed (three times total) with a down comforter which had to then go to the cleaners and peeing on her own dog bed several times too. Those are the things that make you the craziest, aren't they?

I wouldn't count the submissive peeing when company comes. That's really something different. And of course Hannah did that as well. If we know someone is coming over, I always make sure that she has been outside before they arrive so at least she has an empty bladder. It really helps if you can get the guests to ignore her when they arrive. (That's the hard part.) Once she is more used to their being there, it isn't as likely to happen. Another thing is to try to engineer the greetings to take place on a surface that can be easily cleaned, such as the tile instead of a carpeted area. I know that has nothing to do with eliminating the problem, but it makes life easier in the process.