Terri Schiavo - so sad :(

[aly]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html

I think this is just so sad. It is especially upsetting that her parents and her husband don't agree on what should be done :( :(

[GraciesMommy]

This is very close to home for me....the job I have now as Registrar at our Jr High, I have because my friend, Tanya, had the same thing happen to her..that was 4 years ago. She is in the same boat that this poor girl is in EXCEPT that her husband has taken excellent care of her and now has her at home. She has to have 24 our care...he is totally tied down but he will not put her in a nursing home as even her own family told him they would not blame him. He said he married her in "sickness and in health" and he will not abandon her. I admire him. Since her predicament, she has had 2 grand babies..she can't even hold them but she smiles when they are around. Tanya was very outgoing...active in her 3 kids lives..her daughter was in beauty pageants and she always chaperoned...her son's in scouts and she was den mom...when she had the heart attack I was immediately placed in her job...and they held it open for one full year hoping for her recovery...and of course after that, I was made permanent...Tanya and I are good friends and I still go visit with her..don't know how much she understands or knows..but I like to think she knows when I am there. I know she does not want to be living in the situation she is in but I KNOW she would not want to die in the manner of starvation. She is never going to come out of it...she even looks like this poor girl...except red hair..but I can not imagine her husband ever even contemplating that kind of action..and he still hopes for a miracle some day..that is true love..that he will support her til the end...and not play God..and want to end her life in such an evil manner.

[Pit Chick]

I'm conflicted on how I feel about this situation. If she didn't want to be kept alive in that state, I can see where not forcing her to continue on like that is more kind when it comes to quality of life, but I don't like the idea of just leaving her to starve to death. It's one thing to take someone off of a respirator, they would never know it and they would just die on their own, but this is different.

Graciesmommy,
Tanya's husband is an exceptional man to stay by his wife like that and truly stick to their vows. Give him a hug for me next time you see them.

[caseysmom]

I have mixed feelings about this, my husband always says if that ever happens to him he wouldn't want to live like that.

Look at how humane we are with our pets...we watch people suffer for years...of course with our pets nobody is after any ulterior motives...like money.

[GraciesMommy]

The thing is the manner in which they have to die..starvation is a slow agonizing death..the body goes thru dehydration and organs shut down one by one...if it were just taking a person off life support, that is a completely differnt thing all together..I can see that being humane..but not removing a feeding tube and taking days to die..no way.

Pit Chick, you are right, Don is an exceptional man..I have seen him with her and how loving he is. It is amazing..he even gives her birthday parties and every one is invited..takes her to church and ballgames, etc. He has purchased a van that accomodates her wheelchair and takes her to the mall. He tries to give her the most he can socially. Insurance no longer pays for therapy so he does her PT himself plus pays a care giver to come in while he works and they also work with her. Her 2 sisters help where they can. Her mother is not able to help any more..she has some disability herself. But Don does the most part himself.

[caseysmom]

graciesmommy...Don sounds like an amazing man.

[Corinna]

After working with stroke patients who have been in the same state that she is in I know I wouldn't want to be trapped in side like that. They claim shes responsive , its not a satifing response. I couldn't be that way either hubby says the same after all these years can you imangine the frustration she feels (if she can) . I admire her hubby for fighting for her so long . Hes been offered so many ways to be let out of this. He must really love her to keep trying to help her out of this. My concern besides the other is the parents are so much older that who is going to be responable for her when they die?
Pam , I also admire your freind for taking care of his wife, if he is continuing her therapies that could cause a healing. They stopped Terris at least 10 years ago. Even if she ever did come to(so to speck) she would have a very long recovery and some would NEVER come back all the muscles have been atrophed .

[caseysmom]

Can they adminster large doses of morphine to alleviate pain? That seems the most humane way doing this.

[lv4dogs]

Originally posted by Pit Chick
I'm conflicted on how I feel about this situation. If she didn't want to be kept alive in that state, I can see where not forcing her to continue on like that is more kind when it comes to quality of life, but I don't like the idea of just leaving her to starve to death. It's one thing to take someone off of a respirator, they would never know it and they would just die on their own, but this is different.

Graciesmommy,
Tanya's husband is an exceptional man to stay by his wife like that and truly stick to their vows. Give him a hug for me next time you see them.


I have to fully agree with you. (I was going to write almost the same exact thing)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

:( This entire thing really bothers me.
We went through something similar with my father. My step mother had sole say in what happened to him. She opted for taking him off life support.
He had signed a living will though. So, we knew for sure what he wanted. I still would have liked to have given it more time before they 'pulled the plug'.
I don't think that just because someone marries into the family, they should have sole say in something like this. The blood relatives should be considered too. Especially when there is no signed document by the person themselves stating their wishes.

The fact that her husband waited 8 years before he first decided to take her off life support really makes me think he just wants to get rid of her so he can marry his girlfriend.

I think if they do decide to kill her, they could at least be merciful and give her a lethal injection so she won't suffer for days and days. Starvation is a horrible way to die.

It breaks my heart that criminals in this country are granted a more merciful death by lethal injection than someone whose only crime was to be sick.

I personally think they should let her parents be responsible for her and put the tube back in. She is not in a coma and sure seems aware to me, from the tapes I've seen.

[Luvin Labs]

I'm so torn on this :(

She's breathing and heartbeating on her own, and I've seen the videos of her 'responses' (only impressive one was the swab one), but if I were in her spot I would not want to be like that for so long with all that time going by.

If only she had a LIVING will instead of her hubby saying that she said she didn't want this to happen to her then this battle wouldn't be so long.

I am a bit suspicious of her hubby. He's got another woman, plus two kids, yet won't accept her parents (or someone's) 1million dollars to give them custody of her and divorce her.

This case is the main reason my parents got a living will. Come to think of it, I need to do one for me as well.

[Oggyflute]

Wow, this is turning into a pretty sad day. I fervently hope I will never be placed in that situation, I almost was with my dad, but he ended up passing peacefully.
Pamela please pass on to Don & Tanya my families thoughts & best wishes. Don & Tanya have truly beautiful souls.

[petslover]

This is a sad situation. I really feel bad for her. In this lady's mind, I believe she knows everything thats going on around her. I just think Starving her is so wrong. This is going to painful for her. I just wish there was another way to do this. God Bless Her.

[Cincy'sMom]

I too have mixed feelings about this, but I do think letting her starve to death is beyond cruel. If letting nature take over and allowing her to die, is the right thing, I can't imagine how horrible a death it would be to starve to death. People have animals taken away from that for that reason, yet it is okay to do it to a human?

I also hate the political side of it. One of the lawyers today was yapping about Republicans and Democrats and how they should vote, and blah, blah blah.

[Cookiebaker]

They put dogs to sleep in the humane society more humanely than what they are doing to this woman. :(

My heart & prayers go out to Terri Schiavo's parents. I can't imagine how they must feel as they stand by and watch.

:(

[KYS]

When my Aunt and I saw her on T.V. and saw her moving,
we thought how could they remove her feeding tube?
How could they let her starve to death? How inhumane.


Then after listening to Dr.'s on the news etc.
we started to understand.
Neurological tests and brain scans indicate that her cerebral cortex is now principally liquid.

Removing the feeding tube will not be painfull to her because she can feel nothing.

The law in effect of removing a feeding tube
has been in effect for 20 years,
approved and in full support by the medical field
etc.
My immediate family has a living will.
One of my sisters drew one up for me about 5 years ago
and I left it with the hospital I go to and one with my sister.
My X-husband never had a living will, but told me under no
circumstance would he ever want to be kept alive
by a machine.

I can truely understand how the parents feel not
wanting to let go of their daughter.
But if this was truely Terri's wish
not to be kept alive this way, I can understand
her husband. I do not distrust her husband
nor her parants.
I think both want what is best for her in their hearts.

So any law that might be changed because of this
case might end up effecting all of us who
do not want to be kept alive by a machine
or any other method.

Read the next post. She does not feel pain.
This is not reversable.

[KYS]

It was hard for me to look at Terri moving and understand
what is really going on. I am certainly no medical expert.
This article might help us all understand a little what the
husband feels.


Parts of an article from St. Pettersburg Times Tampa Bay:
It had compared Terri's case with other cases.
Brain scans show that parts of Schiavo's brain have atrophied and been replaced by spinal fluid. With such severe damage, Schiavo can't show the recovery that Scantlin has, said Dr. Michael Pulley, assistant professor of neurology at the University of Florida College of Medicine in Jacksonville.

"Those types of changes don't reverse," Pulley said. "If you lose big pieces of brain, regardless of what it is - trauma, stroke, surgery - it doesn't come back."

The only documented case of someone recovering from a permanent vegetative state came in the early 1980s, said Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurology professor at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Schiavo.

And in that case, the patient's scan showed no brain atrophy, Cranford said. "The one thing we learned from that, you look at shrinkage of the brain," he said. "Terri has massive shrinkage."

Schiavo also has more severe brain damage than two patients in a New York study published this month, Cranford said. In that study, the patients diagnosed as minimally conscious showed increased brain activity when they heard audiotapes of loved ones' voices.

Cranford said it's hard for people without neurological training to accept that people in a vegetative state can't recover and aren't aware of their surroundings. They sleep. They wake. They grimace.

"It's very hard, because when you look at Terri Schiavo, you can think she's interacting, but she's not," he said. "When you have loving, caring parents like the Schindlers, you just want to deny they're in a vegetative state. It's a terrible syndrome."

- Times researcher Kitty Bennett contributed to this report, which used information from the Associated Press, Kansas City Star, New York Daily News and People magazine.

[Tonya]

I have such a hard time with this. I would never want to see anyone live like that. But on the same line, I would never want to see someone starve to death. For a situation like this, I wish that assisted suicide was legal. I wish she could die quickly with dignity instead of starving to death. But on the same token, I sort of feel like they should just allow God's will to be done. If she's meant to live, a miracle will happen when they take her off of support.

My father shot himself twice in the head when he was only 21. He was a vegetable. My mother was only 21 and I was 1 years old. It was such a huge and overwhelming decision for her. My grandmother did not want my father to go off of life support. My mother chose to take him off. My grandmother was very angry with her, but I think it was because grief was clouding her judgement. In retrospect, my grandmother understands that it was the best decision. It wouldn't have been fair to my father, myself, or my mother to keep him living. I couldn't imagine how differently my life would be if they'd kept him alive. I was adopted 2 1/2 years later and raised by a wonderful man. I know that is how my dad would have wanted it for me.

[moosmom]

The thing is the manner in which they have to die..starvation is a slow agonizing death..the body goes thru dehydration and organs shut down one by one...if it were just taking a person off life support, that is a completely different thing all together..I can see that being humane..but not removing a feeding tube and taking days to die..no way.

Starvation IS a very cruel way to die. I believe in a Living Will and have one myself. But this is not a case of not taking any extra measures to prolong her life. It's also not a case where she is brain dead. This woman is very much alive. To cause her to starve to death to me is SO inhumane.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

:( The more I hear about this, the more upset I get.
If her husband loved her so much and wanted to carry out her wishes, why did he wait 10 years before he decided to start trying to get her off life support in the first place. He had no problem with her being on life support until he got her money legally.

Seems like her "wishes" should have been carried out immediately.

Also, CNN reports she had filed for divorce before her illness. Also, there have been rumors of abuse. Maybe her husband is afraid she will recover and tell some things. I've seen the film where she follows a balloon with her eyes and moves her head along with it. I believe she knows what is going on. Or at least some of it.

People in comas are often aware of things going on, seems to me she very well could be also.

I can't help it. I think it's legalized murder, plain and simple.
Maybe this is how to commit the "perfect crime.":(

[lizbud]

This certainly is a very emotional and sad case. I feel very sorry
for everyone concerned. There was an interesting article on BBC
website about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4362679.stm


I never knew how she came to be so sick or that the feeding
tube had been removed twice before & then replaced.:(

So sad for all of them.:(

[Kfamr]

And now they're plugging her back in!?!?! My mom just told me on the news that they've plugged her back in.



And what has this done.. killed the remaining 2 brain cells she maybe possibly had left?

[dukedogsmom]

I cannot believe that! She should have been let to die so long ago. I don't mean to sound harsh but I'm so tired of hearing about it. If you can't live without machines, then you're not alive. Let the poor person die and find peace.

[Lilith Cherry]

I agree with Dukedogsmom! It is inhumane to keep her alive on machines and feeding tubes.... there is no quality of life whatsoever and if it were one of our beloved pets I am sure we would not do so. It is a tragedy that should not be prolonged.

[Lillycat]

i agree w/momoffuzzyfaces.......there is much more to this than what we are being told......miracles happen every day as we all have been witness to time after time....

[moosmom]

Michael Schiavo, who has since started a family with another woman

:confused: :confused: What happened to the part in the wedding vows "In sickness and in health"????? Did he not hear that part of it, or did the jerk think it only applied to her???

UGH!!! :mad: :mad:

[GraciesMommy]

And I remember when this first all started and he refused her therapy...parents had to fight that too...and lost..he only let her have minimal therapy saying it was a waste of $.

[LKPike]

I'm not understanding why hes ("husband") doing it, and for so many years. :confused: :confused:
Is he supposed to get super rich when she dies or something?

Whatever the reason, its incredibly sickening to me that a "Doctor" would rather watch a human being starve to death in several weeks time, instead of giving her a quick lethal dose like they do with some prisoners.

[lbaker]

For this poor womans mind, body and spirit to recover would be more than a miracle... it would be a scientific, medical impossibility. No way, no how. For "our" government to interfere is the crime that's being committed here and it stinks :mad: Physical responses to outside stimulation does not indicate awareness, happiness, thought process or joy.. or feeling. It is a muscular, involuntary response, nothing more. Has she not suffered enough? Let her go with peace and prayers from us, the living.

[Luvin Labs]

As for the 'till death us do part', he already feels she is dead since she (so he says) stated to him she does not want to be like that... that some doctors feel she has zero chance of recovery, and less chance of any cognitive abilities (docs say her brain is atrophied too much).

From what I've read, he won't be "super rich" because that money will be going to her medical bills and fees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo

That site has a bunch of stuff about this case.

I find it very interesting/disturbing that there is information that is NOT (that I know of) being investigated. Nurses say she reacts saying "mommy" "help me" and stuff, as well as not being allowed to see if she can swallow on her own.

As well as information from his ex girlfriend about him stalking her... as well as info about her conversations with friends and her brother about wanting to divorce her husband as he's controlling and abusive.

Why aren't they investigating him?

They frankly, should reinsert tube, start therapy, take her out from the 'care' of her 'hubby' and see what happens. Though I think 15 years is WAY TOO much to try to help her, maybe she will recover.... maybe. Then she can perhaps tell us something.

IF she only had a living will this would have been over with eons ago.


And now they're plugging her back in!?!?! My mom just told me on the news that they've plugged her back in.

They did? I just read on CNN that they have not replaced her feeding tube (she can breath on her own)...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/19/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html

[cocker_luva]

im glad they removed it; she wasnt there at all. that poor woman was stuck in purgetory (sp?) for 15 years!

[GoldenRetrLuver]

My parents have been talking/"debating" about this all morning.


Originally posted by LKPike
Whatever the reason, its incredibly sickening to me that a "Doctor" would rather watch a human being starve to death in several weeks time, instead of giving her a quick lethal dose like they do with some prisoners.

I completely agree, which is why IMO, assisted suicide should be legal. Living like that is NOT a life for anyone. That poor woman.

I also just can't believe that they keep removing the feeding tube and putting it back in.. for me, that would be like torture.

It's all very, very sad. :(

[momoffuzzyfaces]

She isn't hooked up to "machines".
She is breathing all on her own. The only help she needs is a feeding tube. She might not even need that is she was given a chance to have therapy.

As to why her husband would want her gone, well, he has had two children with his mistress. He can't marry her and make them legal until Terri dies.

What next? Visit all the nursing homes and get rid of all people who have trouble taking care of themselves?

Just a couple of months ago, a lady here in Kansas came out of a coma she had been in for over 10 years. She knows her parents and can speak and is recovering.
Miracles DO happen.

[Pam]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
She isn't hooked up to "machines".
She is breathing all on her own. The only help she needs is a feeding tube. She might not even need that is she was given a chance to have therapy.

As to why her husband would want her gone, well, he has had two children with his mistress. He can't marry her and make them legal until Terri dies.

What next? Visit all the nursing homes and get rid of all people who have trouble taking care of themselves?

Just a couple of months ago, a lady here in Kansas came out of a coma she had been in for over 10 years. She knows her parents and can speak and is recovering.
Miracles DO happen.


MOFF, this whole thing has got me so upset. I thought I'd stop in at the Dog House and see if there was a thread going and how people are reacting. I can only say that I agree with you 100%.

This "husband" has been that in name only. His heart and life is obviously with his other family. The people who love and care about her are her parents and I simply cannot understand why he doesn't turn things over to them and let them take her home and care for her as they want to so much. With no living will, the thought of ending her life should not even be entertained. Every time I see the "husband" on TV I get sick to my stomach. I heard today that years ago he refused an MRI for her and has never allowed her to have speech therapy. There is a question of whether there was physical abuse in the marriage. No wonder he wants her to remain mute and eventually dead. This whole incident will certainly set a horrible precedent if she is allowed to die.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

What I would do if I were in control of this situation would be let her parents take care of her and order all sorts of rehab and therapy for her that might be helpful. I'd give them 6 months to a year to see if there is any improvement. Then I would re-evaluate her condition. After this long, one more year shouldn't matter to her husband and may make a world of difference to her.

At least give her a fighting chance to improve.

[Pam]

What a paradox we have here all in the same week. A wretched excuse for a human being has snatched an innocent 9 year old girl from her bedroom and killed her. He is on "suicide watch." People (for some insane reason) don't want him to die. Why? I say give him a little poison and leave him alone for a few minutes and see what he does. Why is there so much care taken for the rights of hardened criminals and none for a woman such as Terri Schiavo. Who is looking out for her? Thankfully some are and I applaud them.

[cocker_luva]

not to bring in another controversial topic but..

this is another reason why i totally supported Dr. Covorcen's idea with helping people.

[kuhio98]

My husband and I both have signed living wills. I urge you all to do the same. That way, during an awful, emotional time, your wishes can be carried out. I hope that none of my loved ones ever have to make this awful decision. But, if they do, I hope that the living will I signed will comfort them and they will not feel conflicted about disconnecting me from all artifical means of support.

All they would be doing is letting my body die. My spirit would be long gone, crossed over the rainbow bridge, reunited with Kuhio for all time.

I remember reading that Christopher Reeves' mother wanted to "pull the plug" after he was paralized. She received a lot of criticism about it. But, when Christopher was able to talk again, he calmed everyone down and told them that she had just been trying to carry out his wishes. Luckily for them, they had 10 more years together before he died.

From what I've read about this case, Terry's husband has tried to carry out her wishes (or what he tells us is her wishes) from early on. This is not a recent development. It hits the news every few years. I am very upset that the government is getting involved. Yes, it would be great if her family could come to an agreement. But, getting the government involved is not the way. How would you like some strangers in Washington telling you how to handle your family business?

[christa]

I am so angry over this.

Terri's husband has moved on with his life . . . has a new woman, children . . . he needs to let this go also.

I wish that the family could make this decision . . . but I only think that it should be left in the family's hands IF the ENTIRE family can come to the same conclusion. And obviously that's not the case.

In 1997, Terri was eating and drinking with her mouth. Her husband ordered that she only have the feeding tube. Now he wants to starve her to death . . .

This is his way of getting rid of his guilt . . . the guilt of moving on with his life.

To starve her to death . . . how can anyone be OK with that?

Mancow said it best this morning . . . We can't starve a dog to death, but . . .

This is just so upsetting . . .

[Maresche]

This is truly a tragic situation but the federal government HAS NO BUSINESS getting involved for either side. I was floored that the state government passed "Terri's law" and was glad when it was overturned. I'm truly p*ssed that the federal government thinks it should get involved when the Supreme Court has already said it will not listen to the case because it does not have jurisdiction. It is a ploy for votes, nothing else ,and I look forward to it blowing up in their faces.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

One of the things that gets me is when people say to go a head and let her starve to death because she won't feel it.

HOW THE HECK DO THEY KNOW??????

I think she will feel it. They didn't think people in comas knew what was going on either. Now, they are finding, lots of them do know what is going on. Terri may too. Unless someone has been in her condition and recovered enough to tell about it, they will never know.

I watched them starve my dad to death and I think HE did feel it and he was in a coma. It still haunts me because I couldn't stop it.

Fox News said this morning that when this first happened one of the nurses that was taking care of Terri was able to hand feed her. Terri's husband made her stop and told her he wanted a feeding tube or nothing. It was a email they read this morning.

[sirrahbed]

This has ME upset too. I wish someone would explain exactly what forces were behind all the hoopla on Palm Sunday night. Whatever is important enough to gather all these politicians? I don't think it really had anything to do with the family or Terry Schiavo - something else must be behind this.

I don't believe the federal government has any right to interfere in 15 years' worth of court decisions. What will happen now to individual state's rights? What business does the government or church have to meddle into such private things??

I keep wishing someone without ANY political agenda would explain what happened last night. Who paid for all this??? WE DID. It must have cost a fortune...

The whole thing scares me. Maybe I am paranoid - but it seems as if our lives are under far too much control - by goverenment, church, interest groups...I don't even know who was responsible or behind this latest mess but it was far bigger than it should have been. Since when do lawmakers use vacation time to listen to hearings?? Exactly what brought all those politicians out? What is the true agenda??

I suppose the only small comfort is the Living Will & Advanced Directives I have carried for many years. I have an illness (renal failure) that will eventually take my life and so it has been VERY important to me to take care of this one thing I feel I have some degree of control over.
Living Will/Advanced Directives: These are free. There are even available at websites - just need notorizing or two witnesses, depending on your state. If you don't have one, get one. Keep copies on file with your doctors, hospitals, at home and Xerox shrink a copy to carry with you at all times. Hopefully - if the time ever comes to have it honored - it will still be legally binding.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Murder is always a concern of the government and the church, or should be.

This would be legalized murder, plain and simple!

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Murder is always a concern of the government and the church, or should be.

This would be legalized murder, plain and simple!

MOFF, that is one opinion - but then - is a Living Will considered legalized suicide??

Isn't is possible that the right to die with dignity really WAS this woman's desire?? I know most folks dislike her husband (hard to think well of him) but nobody can really knows what she wanted, unfortunately.

[lbaker]

Are you honestly saying that all of the thousands of people on life support systems on any given day around the world.. who's doctors and family's agree there is no chance of recovery. Who's heart, liver, eyes etc could be used to save someone elses life. All of the doctors and family members who heart breakingly agree upon the final act of respect.. they are murderers!?

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by lbaker
Are you honestly saying that all of the thousands of people on life support systems on any given day around the world.. who's doctors and family's agree there is no chance of recovery. Who's heart, liver, eyes etc could be used to save someone elses life. All of the doctors and family members who heart breakingly agree upon the final act of respect.. they are murderers!?
No! That's not what I am saying!
She is breathing on her own. She can follow objects with her eyes. She has not been given an MRI to find the extent of her brain damage. She has not been given the benefit of any kind of therapy to see if she could improve.

Most families I know, order every possible test to find out if their loved ones have any chance of recovery. In this case, her parents wanted all the tests, and were willing to pay for them. Her husband refused!

Most families make sure their loved one is at least, brain dead before they give the ok to start harvesting their organs. A person who is brain dead, can not sit there and look around at you. A person has to be legally dead before organs can be taken. Terri is not legally dead.

You need to be very very sure before you end a life because you can not bring them back. There is just too many unsetteling things about this that I feel should be looked into.

No one deserves to be starved to death. If they decide she really can't be helped, at least give her a lethal injection and make it quick.

A living will would have been a great help. At least her family would know in their own minds, it was what she wanted. It would give them a measure of peace. That is out of the question for Terri now though. All they have is the word of her husband who possibly would like her out of his life.

[christa]

Did she have a will? I was under the impression that her husband "said that she said" one time . . .

I'm still suspecious of the husband. Probably wouldn't be if I knew he had been supportive & loving for the past 10 years. But obviously he has quickly moved on.

Like I said before, he needs to rid himself of this guilt . . . just too bad that it means a loss of life.

[lizbud]

There is column in my local newspaper called Let It Out where
various opinions & comments are made about news events. This
comment appeared the other day & I must say it reflectes my feeling too.

" O K, federal government, get out of my bed, my kitchen, my
house,my car,my marriage, my health care, my religion and
especially my death bed. Try minding your own business, and I'll
take care of mine"

This sudden flury of activity by congress & the white house is
a very transparent ploy for political gain. They hope to profit from
this family's tragedy.

[moosmom]

Dr. Kevorkian is my hero. No one has the right to tell me how to live or not live my life.

Like Lizbud said...

" O K, federal government, get out of my bed, my kitchen, my
house,my car,my marriage, my health care, my religion and
especially my death bed. Try minding your own business, and I'll
take care of mine"

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by moosmom
Dr. Kevorkian is my hero. No one has the right to tell me how to live or not live my life.
That's fine as long as you are able to decide for yourself what you want.
But what if you never told any one your wishes? Or at least only told someone you thought loved you but might really have not?

I think I would be more at peace about this if her husband had not waited 8 YEARS before he first tried to have the tube removed. If her wishes were to die, why did HE WAIT SO LONG?

[Prairie Purrs]

I'm doubly disgusted at Congress for jumping into this situation.

First of all, making political hay out of a personal tragedy is beyond contempt.

Second, why haven't we heard anything from Congress about the law in Texas that allows hospitals to remove patients from life support without the family's permission!

Last week, a Texas hospital removed the breathing tube from a six-month-old baby against his mother's wishes. Here's (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934) the story.

Has it reached the point where the government and large corporations that run hospitals pick and choose whose life is prolonged and whose isn't? And if that's the case, there's no hope for the poor and uninsured--life support is expensive, and corporations think only of profits.

[Pit Chick]

It's not easy to make the decision to pull someone off life support because you're always going to be thinking, "what if", but when doctors, the medical professionals, are telling you there is NO chance for recovery or quality of life, then you have to do what's in the best interest of the one on life support. It's selfish to do otherwise. The mother of that baby (Sun) admitted that she didn't get prenatal care, which IMO could be considered neglect and if she had she would have found out and been better prepared for the decision she would have had to make when the baby was born. Someone had to make the decision to end his suffering and the mother was too emotional to do the right thing.

It's like having pet put to sleep. You know it needs to be done even though you have that shimmer of hope they'll get better, but do you let them suffer or let them go?

[lbaker]

..and THAT, PC is the question at hand. Do you love them enough to let them go? doG knows I've been in that situation. That's why they have DNR as an option when someone checks into the hospital. DO NOT RESUSITATE. To suffer? A huge NO. so that part is a torment. We treat animals and even vile inmates with better compassion. THAT is the crime at this point in time by the damned politico's. In my most very, humble opinion. I will not comment any longer. I have too much respect for some PetTalkers here I adore and don't want to offend by getting into a pi$$ing contest over personal beliefs

[Pam]

Laurie, I agree that people should be able to die with dignity provided that they have signed a living will. In Terri's case there is only hearsay from someone with very questionable motives (i.e., the 'husband').. If she really wanted to die then her parents will owe her an apology in heaven. If she wanted to remain alive and that choice was taken from her then God help the people responsible for removing her feeding tube. They will answer to Him. Bottom line: we really don't know Terri's wishes and I would prefer to err on the side of life.

[GraciesMommy]

I agree with you, Pam...and therefore I did my living will yesterday.
Downloaded it from the web, got 2 wtinesses and had it notorized and placed with my regular will..

[Logan]

I'm not going to get into this discussion, but it has been interesting to read all of your thoughts. Those of you who know me well will already know how I feel about it.

BUT........I'm listening to talk radio this morning as I work and they are talking with two attorneys about Living Wills right now. I would seek local counsel in your state regarding living wills because apparently the laws for these documents vary from state to state. These lawyers are licensed in South Carolina and are approaching it from that perspective, but they say the SC law and Florida law are not the same. So, make sure, when you prepare these documents for yourself, at least have them reviewed by a lawyer in your state to make sure that your wishes can be complied with.

Logan :(

[RICHARD]

Here's the question that all these effing lawyers, congress folks, senators and everyone else should ask THEMSELVES..

IF for some god forsaken reason, they should suddenly lose all ability to care for themselves, would they consider spending the next 12 years, bedridden, in a hospice somewhere..


Therein the answer lies.

Counting the holes in the ceiling tiles is not quality of life.
:eek:

[wolflady]

Originally posted by Pam
...
This "husband" has been that in name only. His heart and life is obviously with his other family. The people who love and care about her are her parents and I simply cannot understand why he doesn't turn things over to them and let them take her home and care for her as they want to so much.....

Nice to "see" you Pam! :)
**hugs**

I agree with you about the husband. He was given an "out" when they asked him why he doesn't just divorce her and let the parents take care of it. If he wants to move on with his life and new family, I don't understand why he doesn't divorce her instead of keeping a "mistress" for all of these years. :rolleyes:

It sure seems like some background investigation should be taken, especially if there are questionable circumstances.

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing. On one hand, if there is absolutely no quality of life at all, what's the point of dragging it out? Like others have said, we help our animals along when there's no quality of life. If in fact, her brain has atrophied and there is no chance at all for recovery...then it's not right to keep this person alive, especially if they aren't even aware of being alive. I could see why helping her along to heaven would be a better choice. After all, people are allowed to "kill" unborn babies who might have otherwise been healthy normal people...so why not help someone who has been suffering in a vegetative state for 15 years finally have some peace??!! :confused:

On the other hand, if she seems like she's aware of what's happening, then removing the feeding tube and having her starve to death seems really cruel to me.

I think having a living will would be the best option for any case like this when there is a lot of grey area.

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

This is all so upsetting to me... :( ! I think I mostly agree with Gracie's mom: I can NOT accept the way they want to let her die. Starve to death is a punishment and it is so cruel!!. Is THAT what this poor woman deserves??:mad: .

[momoffuzzyfaces]

On Fox news this morning they interviewed a nurse that took care of Terri from 1995 to Aug. of 1996. She said Terri could speak and make her wishes known at that time. She was also able to eat thickened foods.

When Terri's husband found out she could eat, he stopped it and insisted on a feeding tube.

The nurse also said she caught Terri's husband giving Terri insulin. That would put her in a coma like state. She also found needle marks under Terri's breasts and arms.

She said he would come in and ask them if the b.... was dead yet. It's her opinion he was trying to kill Terri.

The nurse told her supervisors and the police. They did nothing but fire her. That's just what she said but I think this all needs looking into, especially since this is the second nurse to state things like this.

Terri's husband refused to come on the show and challenge the nurses claims.

A doctor that treats Terri said she has not even been tested to see if she can swallow on her own for years but she could, at one time do it.

If Terri is really beyond help, well that's one thing. Of course you don't want them to suffer.

But there are just two many questions, I feel. I'm not the one making the choices though nor, am I the one who will have to live with what ever is decided. But do they HAVE TO STARVE HER TO DEATH?
I still say, a lethal injection would be more humane.

[Luvin Labs]

This is being discussed on several other boards I frequent, I found a post from someone that I wholeheartedly agree with so I've shamelessly c/p this to here:

The parents have successfully made this guy out to look horrible, and have done a very good job at a smear campaign.. I do find it disturbing to watch interviews with the mother where she's asked if she knew Terri's wishes, and she says, "No". (CNN Larry King Live Interview, 9/24/2004) She said she just wanted to take care of her for the rest of her life. Realistically, Terri would outlive her mother, but what happens if her mother's health fails or if she passes away?

Next, her husband is actually an Emergency Medicine Nurse with a hospital in the area..

With all these stories of abuse, and that Michael gave Doctors money to say his wife is in a persistent vegetative state, etc are all BS.. This case has been through all of the courts MULTIPLE times over the past 10 years, and only a small percentage sided with the family. The family, grasping for straws, got a nurse to testify in the trial in 96 that she was a nurse for Terri and that she was alert and trying to communicate, etc. And that's what the family takes as THE TRUTH, however, her testimony was thrown out because she didn't come forward at the first trial, and only came forward after being let go from the hospice facility.

Now, trying to look at this from the family's side, I can understand a bit. Here's a family that I believe genuinely loves their daughter, and they see her smile once in a while, and blink and once in a while follow a shiny object with her eyes, sort of. So, they translate this into someone being behind those eyes, their daughter and they think that she will get better with therapy that they say isn't being done. They have doctors across the country sending them letters saying that she can talk but she just needs some help. However, independent doctors that have actually met with her and done work with her have said quite the opposite. In the early 90's Michael had taken her out to California to do an experimental surgery that had helped a small amount with people in less severe situations, it was inserting a stimulus in the brain. Most people wore for 3 months with some results, she wore it for 1 year with no results whatsoever.

Also, you should check out the brain scans that they had done in the mid 90's of her brain. Basically, the entire half of the rear has all deteriorated because of her lack of oxygen as well as spinal fluid eating away at it. However, she still isn't considered brain dead, just not cognizant.

her doctors, both hired by her husband and also court ordered independent doctors have said that she is in a persistent vegetative state, AKA, hopeless, and her guardian, her husband, has said that her wish is to not be on these machines that keep her alive

she was Bulimic (sp?), but as you may know for women it's a very secretive thing, even the closest people to them don't know it's going on... Even her friends said that she seemed to be eating fine, and seemed to actually eat quite a bit before the injury. Also, this has been to court MANY times, and this notion has been thrown out every time as there is no evidence and you can not hold someone to what you think they might have done by whatever prejudices you have for the situation.

If Terri really didn't want to be kept alive by any machines at all, then her family has kept her alive for 15 YEARS against her wishes. I wouldn't want video of me plastered all over every TV station showing my family having to hold my head up and me sort of glaring at a balloon and flashing lights not able to move and in a clenched position. For me, it's a quality of life issue, if I know that I wouldn't come out of it, and would be bed ridden forever, and am not actively talking and need machines to help me live, I wouldn't want to be kept alive.

Now,

Michael also said that HE WOULD NOT GAIN ANYTHING from her death at all. That has been her family saying that. Her family offered him $700k to relinquish guardianship and divorce her 2 years ago, he declined.. He has offered that if/when she passes to have them do a full audit of everything if they choose to prove to them that he is not going to get any money out of this at all.. The family is trying to make him out to be this bad guy that just wants to kill his wife to get insurance money and/or settlement money..

Interviews were done for both sides on Larry King... For Michael his Lawyer sat there with document after document and case after case of proof, her family sat there just talking about what they feel and not having anything to back it up at all, their lawyer sat there rather quietly..

The parents need to learn to let go.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

If inmates on death row were denied food and water it would be considered "cruel and unusual punishment".
Seems to me, it should be considered the same for Terri, or any human.
There has to be a better way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because doctors don't THINK a person in this condition feels anything by being starved, doesn't make it right. They don't really know! They've not been through it themselves.

As for the parents needing to learn to let go, that's easier said than done if it's your child or kin that you love with all your heart. :(

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs

Michael also said that HE WOULD NOT GAIN ANYTHING from her death at all. Then why not just divorce her? Principle? That's just spiting her family. The way I see it, he's moved on to greener pastures. He has a girlfriend and two illegitimate children. (Don't even get me started on the whole "'Til death do us part" thing.) If he stands to gain nothing, divorce would be a very simple way out.

I find it repulsive she is being allowed to starve to death. Animals in government facilities (animal shelters, etc.) aren't permitted to starve to death, but we will let a fellow human being suffer that fate? I don't think so.

This truly does show how very important a living will is, if nothing else. This whole debacle has made me sit down with my husband and parents and share my wishes with them so, God forbid, if anything like this were ever to happen to me they'd at least know what my wishes were.

[Logan]

Simply said, it seems to me that if there is any doubt, then they should ere on the side of life, and there appears to be much doubt.

Samantha Puppy, I agree with you whole heartedly on everything you said.

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
Then why not just divorce her?

Because he wants to see her wishes carried out. And obviously the courts (fifteen years of dealing with courts, evidence and reports) have decided in her and her husbands favor.

HOW do you know she is suffering with the feeding tube removed? We dunno. You dunno. I dunno.


the deterioration of Terri's brain left her without thoughts or feelings, that the damage is irreversible, and that Terri's life-like appearance is merely the result of brain stem activity -- basically involuntary reflexes we all have.

An independent doctor hired by the court reached the same conclusions.

From this quote, I really don't think we are 'killing her' since there are no thoughts or feelings... i.e. she isn't feeling anything because that part of her brain is not there.

Here's another site about this case:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

[momoffuzzyfaces]

If I were her parents, I'd be in her room with water and an eye dropper just to see if I could get some water down her. They don't know that she can't swallow.

Choking to death would be no worse than starving to death.

No they don't know for sure she's suffering without the feeding tube but THEY DON'T KNOW SHE ISN'T either!

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
They don't know that she can't swallow.

Actually, they've known for YEARS that she cannot swallow.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf

Page two, first full paragraph.

Can't c/p since its adobe.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
Actually, they've known for YEARS that she cannot swallow.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/trialctorder0300.pdf

Page two, first full paragraph.

Can't c/p since its adobe.
Well, no wonder everyone is so confused. The doctors don't even agree.

One of the ones treating her said on Fox this morning that they have not done a test on her to see if she could swallow for years.

I'd still give it a go. At this point there's not much to lose and who knows?

[Luvin Labs]

True, it can't hurt just to try it again, who knows maybe she actually can now...

won't hurt just to try, I mean if it means proving she can or cannot, then it'll be current info/tests and hopefully help close this case

[joycenalex]

i have a living will, i've had it for many years. my biological family lives in another state, my family of choice lives here in ohio. i've worked in health care for 20 years, and i'm very very clear under no circumstances do i want a feeding tube inserted, if there is no meaningful chance of recovery. my primary physician has a copy of the directives, and i've looked her right in the face,every year since i had the living will done and reiterated, no tubes, dnr for me. my coworkers know dnr, no tubes. the doctors i work with, one that i love, a brilliant neuroradiologist, another a very very good radiologist know that i don't want tubes and want to be dnr. i've told as many people as i possibly can, do not tube me, i'm dnr. all of pet talk now knows, no tubes, dnr. may i never have to use it, amen. if i were found unconscious somewhere, the paramedics and er team would have to tube me, that is there job, to keep my human form alive, under all costs, but when i'm identified, by my telling so many people my wishes, those tubes can be legally removed.
this whole thing is sad beyond belief. i ache for her husband and her biological family. i am mightly pis#$d off at the politicans in florida and washington for having the shameless nerve to insert themselves into a private matter for their own political ends. how disgusting. this event is private and not at all the business of the florida legislature, floridia gov,. the us congress and the white house . terri is not a toy. this is wrong.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud

" O K, federal government, get out of my bed,

So you enjoy the company of Uncle Sam in YOUR bed every April 15th too????;)

To expand on this topic a bit more....

Starving a person to death is a fricking crime...

Now, as pet people on this site what do we do when we find our pets suffering or living a life that has no quality to it????


This is not an easy question to answer...we do have to take measures that will insure us a peaceful trip to the RB....


Yeah, it sucks to see all this politicos hamming it up for the voters and even sadder to see it as the topic 'du jour' in the media..

[Logan]

Richard, I rarely disagree with you, but I do this time.......I only refer to my earlier post regarding ering on the side of life, since there are so many questions. The whole thing makes me sad, and yes, I feel it is murder......... :(

[Edwina's Secretary]

And yet....many of the same politicians who are calling for the sanctity of life...and "we don't know for sure" are all for the death sentence. We don't know for sure about many who are on death row. How many how been found to be innocent of the crime for which they were convicted??? How many people have been put to death "incorrectly"??? Why are these politicians who are so concerned about life not INSISTING on a moritorium on the death penalty until we are sure??? Why is one life more valuable than another???

[chelsea]

I think it is a extremely selfish thing the parents are doing, let Terri have some peace from this Earth. She has no quality of life, put yourself in Terri's place, really just think about it and answer me this question... Would you want to spend 15 or more years like she has, would you really?? I know that I would NOT.

As for the government getting involved, it sickens me for several reasons. First and fore most if they really believed what they claimed about erring with the side of life then why didn't they get involved in the case in Texas?? :confused:
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934 (To read the Texas case click here)

[Pam]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
And yet....many of the same politicians who are calling for the sanctity of life...and "we don't know for sure" are all for the death sentence. We don't know for sure about many who are on death row. How many how been found to be innocent of the crime for which they were convicted??? How many people have been put to death "incorrectly"??? Why are these politicians who are so concerned about life not INSISTING on a moritorium on the death penalty until we are sure??? Why is one life more valuable than another???

Sara, Alan Dershowitz was on GMA this morning and addressed this as it relates to both sides. He brought up your point but also said that many of those who are crying to do away with the death penalty are also first in line to end Terri's life. He said both sides have their agenda and that is the bottom line.

This poor woman was not convicted of a crime. She is not even remotely a criminal. She is an innocent person who is being allowed to starve to death. Though others have used this word barbaric I can't think of anything that so appropriately describes what is going on.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am conflicted about the death penalty. My concern is not whether it is an appropriate punishment or not. My concern is the adequacy of the judical system and its ability to determine guilt. Too many times someone has been on death row and then exonerated when the real killer is found. And usually they are poor and minority.

If it is barbaric to remove her feeding tube....what is it to convict an innocent person....let them sit for years in prison...and then execute them???? Is it okay because they are poor, have committed other crimes, are mentally retarded, had a bad lawyer?

How many times is too many?

I agree with what Dershowitz said. But I also cannot understand how one can say they are pro-life and be pro-death penalty. The system just isn't good enough to ensure that an innocent person won't be put to death for a crime they didn't commit.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by RICHARD


Now, as pet people on this site what do we do when we find our pets suffering or living a life that has no quality to it????
Well, we don't starve them to death!

Another thing makes me think. Her parents have to under go 3 security checks before they can get in to see Terri. (all ordered by Terri's husband)

I have no problem with THAT but why must they be strip searched?

Not to keep them from killing Terri. They know THAT won't happen. The only reason I can see is to keep them from giving her water / food and HELPING her.

I'm afraid it is too late for Terri now. It's like I said earlier, if she must die, couldn't they at least be merciful about it?

People can't even agree about when life starts, how can they decide when it should end?

:(

[Luvin Labs]

How do we know they are NOT being merciful? We dunno if they are giving her drugs or not to end her life peacefully.

chelsea

As for the government getting involved, it sickens me for several reasons. First and fore most if they really believed what they claimed about erring with the side of life then why didn't they get involved in the case in Texas??
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934

they actually DID get involved, they made a bill to pull the plug! You see bush flip flops just as much as the next politician.

Lemme find more information on that... I DO remember that El Presidente signed some bill in TX in 1999 that allows hospitals to pull the plug.

brb on that

[Pam]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Well, we don't starve them to death!

People can't even agree about when life starts, how can they decide when it should end?

:(

MOFF you have that right.

We were all discussing this at work today and one of my co-workers had an interesting thought. She said how in the world are both sides ever going to come together at one funeral? She made the comment that if it was her daughter lying there she could not be in the same church as the "husband." Possibly two funerals she thought. I hadn't allowed myself to go that far in my thinking but I guess I had better start doing so. :(

[Pam]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I am conflicted about the death penalty. My concern is not whether it is an appropriate punishment or not. My concern is the adequacy of the judical system and its ability to determine guilt. Too many times someone has been on death row and then exonerated when the real killer is found. And usually they are poor and minority.



Sara I am conflicted as well. Recently there was a man on extreme make-overs who had been rotting in prison for years (maybe decades - I can't even remember) all because of a teeth imprint on the body which an "expert" testified was made from his teeth. Through DNA now he has been proven innocent and released. Amazingly he exhibits little bitterness.

As we become more and more sophisticated in the ways we handle forensic evidence hopefully these things will be happening less and less. Of course it is too late for some. :( My hubby is very strongly against capital punishment. I think it very much has its place in circumstances like the slime that killed little Jessica Lunsford. He has confessed. Let's save the state some money and the lawyers their trouble. My heart aches for those who may have been wrongly executed but I don't think we can throw out the whole concept. Let's throw out the lenient judges. Jessica's killer had 24 arrests. He should have been locked up and the key thrown away. Now there's a start. Sorry, I am getting off topic. :rolleyes:

[Cataholic]

A little off the topic but:



Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
T.....and two illegitimate children.


WOW. I find that statment a little hard to read past. The children are not illegitmate. To put that label on them is a bit circa 1940s..IMO. While you might not agree with the acts of the parents, the children are nothing less than legitimate.

[catland]

From what I can tell, Mrs. Schiavo "died" 15 years ago. Her mind is gone. The question that no one can answer is, "what about her soul"? Did it die with the lack of oxygen, or is it still trapped inside of her, waiting to be freed?


From the political view - aren't the people who are interfering with the husband's wishes the same ones who were all "one man - one woman" sanctitiy of marriage supporters six months ago?

Finally, if it was me in that state - I would be happy that my husband found someone else to share his life with since I could no longer be with him.

[lizbud]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
How do we know they are NOT being merciful? We dunno if they are giving her drugs or not to end her life peacefully.

chelsea


they actually DID get involved, they made a bill to pull the plug! You see bush flip flops just as much as the next politician.

Lemme find more information on that... I DO remember that El Presidente signed some bill in TX in 1999 that allows hospitals to pull the plug.

brb on that

Luvin Labs,

Do you mean the legislation mentioned in this article ?



" For your information, while he was governor of Texas, George W. Bush signed the Advanced Directives Act in 1999, which gives hospitals the right to remove life support in cases where there is no possibility of revival, when the family cannot pay, no matter what the family's wishes are in the matter. In Texas, you can only live in a persistent vegetative state if you are accepted in one of the few institutions that provide such care or if your family is both willing and able to take care of you. And if Bush is so concerned about the right to life, why didn't he give death-row inmate Carla Faye Tucker more than 10 minutes consideration and some cheap mockery? "

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud

and if Bush is so concerned about the right to life, why didn't he give death-row inmate Carla Faye Tucker more than 10 minutes consideration and some cheap mockery? "

He was drunk???:confused:


Originally posted by Logan
Richard, I rarely disagree with you, but I do this time.......I only refer to my earlier post regarding ering on the side of life, since there are so many questions. The whole thing makes me sad, and yes, I feel it is murder......... :(

I understand, I have mixed emotions about this...
Part of me says that she should live, but starving her to death is criminal, the other part of me says that she deserves a fate far better than this.


Let me explain!

Back in Year One I used to be a file clerk.

I saw many cases where the volumes of patient charts (who were in our extended care facilities) grew to ENORMOUS proportions..

Take 350 sheets of paper, multiply that by 20 volumes and you get the picture.

In some of those volumes there were photos of bed sores (decubitis ulcers) where you could see the heel bone showing out the back of the poor patients foot from being on their backs for so long, also buttocks elbows and shoulders were open, raw holes in that person's body.

That really sucks because the image haunts you for years....I hadn't thought of them for that long....I'll have to pass on the meat section of the market for a while.....I know that sounds gross, but is something that you can never forget.

Factor in all the infections, germs and God knows what else is lurking in that room that may kill this woman before the courts, lawyers and our government get a grip on what THEY are going to do.

Even a well meaning visitor can touch or breathe something into the air that COULD make this whole case moot.

Plus there is the fact that if may be too late to try and rehabilitate
her. Years of her not using her limbs have made physical therapy
a tough job.

12 years is a long time to spend, trapped inside your body and mind. There is no way to tell if she hasn't had some sort of catastrophic breakdown!!

The one thing we will never know is what her feelings are-

Sometimes the sounds of a tempest in the teapot drown out the voices of the people stuck in the storm.

:(

It's not easy.

[moosmom]

The U.S. Supreme Court has just denied Terri's parents request to re-insert the feeding tube.

I guess that's the end of THAT. :(

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/0305/24scotus.html


Maybe her parents can have her life "stopped" without her having to starve to death..... :(

[Logan]

Such a sad, sad day. Of course, all of them have been in recent weeks. :(

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Cataholic
WOW. I find that statment a little hard to read past. The children are not illegitmate. To put that label on them is a bit circa 1940s..IMO. While you might not agree with the acts of the parents, the children are nothing less than legitimate. I didn't come up with the term. And just for the record, I have no problem with his children. If anything, I feel sorry for them. Their daddy is a POS who is STILL MARRIED to a woman who is not their mommy. So much for the whole "for better, for worse, in sickness and in health" deal he made, huh?

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by lizbud
Luvin Labs,

Do you mean the legislation mentioned in this article ?



" For your information, while he was governor of Texas, George W. Bush signed the Advanced Directives Act in 1999, which gives hospitals the right to remove life support in cases where there is no possibility of revival, when the family cannot pay, no matter what the family's wishes are in the matter. In Texas, you can only live in a persistent vegetative state if you are accepted in one of the few institutions that provide such care or if your family is both willing and able to take care of you. And if Bush is so concerned about the right to life, why didn't he give death-row inmate Carla Faye Tucker more than 10 minutes consideration and some cheap mockery? "

OOh yeah, that's it! Thanks

Finally, hopefully, sadly, this case will come to a close. It doesn't matter right now that he's "an pos", he's staying with her to fulfill her wishes of not wanting to 'live' like this (that's why he didn't divorce her!) and FINALLY her wishes can be filled out. Not like it hasn't been tried for the last seven years or so... with courts siding with her time and time again...

I feel sad for her parents since they are holding on and not being able to let go, I do NOT want to go through with seeing any children I might have die before I do, but I'd fulfill his/her wishes (hopefully).

[sirrahbed]

I hope some of you have found time to get your Living Wills - the news reported that this case has caused an increase in folks asking about them.

One thing that I keep hearing is "starve her to death" and "murdering her" - neither of with are fair.

I suppose you could say that anyone who dies goes through a period of failing to eat ("starving to death??") as it is a natural step at the end. Folks stop eating whether consciously or unconsciously and the body does begin to shut down, a dying person does develop the sunken face, grimace etc. I have directly experienced death both as an RN and with my mother.

I heard a statement by the Hospice folks who said that going without food or water in the end is NOT painful at all. Anyone who is allowed to die in a Hospice is cared for to prevent any uneccessary suffering and the death is as peaceful as the family will allow.

As for Terri - I wish they would have a spokesperson give the true report on her condition. They would likely report the following: say her lips are not parched because staff will keep them lubricated. Her mouth is often swapped with a moist and soothing swab. She is not in pain either because she is not able to feel pain or that she is medicated.

I have heard conflicting reports about whether Terri feels pain. If there is any chance that she does, she will be given enough morphine to control it.

I have had to switch from network to network to get as many facts as I can. It is a sad situation and hard to sort out the truth with all the allegations being thrown around.

But, the biggest and grossest statement is that she is being starved to death - because this same decision is being made every minute of every day by family caring for loved ones. It doesn't change much if that loved one is hooked to a ventilator because the same logic could be used and this person would then be "asphixiated or suffocated to death". Nothing about death is easy and euphemisms abound -as do these hurtful phrases that will likely haunt the decisions of anyone with a dying relative or friend.

Also - in the Living Will - at least here in Ohio, it clearly lists the withholding of food and water as a life saving measure, along with respirators (vents).

Within the past three years, my husband and I each had to travel across the country to be with a dying parent. in My husband did it twice - for each parent. In each case, there was no Living Will, although I did know the wishes of my mother. We had to initiate a DNR order (do not resuscitate) Both my husband and I had to be the one to make a decision to let the parent die naturally and each sat alone at their bedsides. I was alone with my mother when she took her last breath. Thank God that none of the family resisted us - they simply were not emotionally ready to decide *anything*. They were very much like Terri's family, unable to let go and running purely on emotion.

So, did we allow our parents to starve to death, asfixiate, suffocate, etc? That IS essentially what happens. In order to die, a person HAS to cease beathing, eating, etc. :(

There is NO WAY anyone will know the truth of what Terri wanted. What I feel sure about is that she would NOT want her picture broadcast on all the television networks for the world to see. This woman has been used as a pawn in a game of anger, politics, blame, family disaggreement and even religion.:mad:

I don't like what I hear about the husband either. But those facts are not proven or disproven. I wonder if he will now have a slander suit due to all that has been said about him in this "eleventh hour". But, what I hear is all pretty creepy. Still, the name calling surrounding Terri and all of the division has been beyond hateful. It has made people take sides.
Why did he not divorce her? Perhaps he was committed to seeing her wishes honored??
On the other hand, if there was so much "evidence" that he was a wife abuser, hated her and wanted her dead - why did the family not fight like this to gain custody of her?

I suppose the only good to come from this mess is the increase in Living Wills.



edited later for spelling:o

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
There is NO WAY anyone will know the truth of what Terri wanted. What I feel sure about is that she would NOT want her picture broadcast on all the television networks for the world to see. This woman has been used as a pawn in a game of anger, politics, blame, family disaggreement and even religion .:mad:
I don't like what I hear about the husband either. But those facts are not proven or disproven. I wonder if he will now have a slander suit due to all that has been said about him in this "eleventh hour". But, what I hear is all pretty creepy. Still, the name calling surrounding Terri and all of the division has been beyond hateful. It has made people take sides.
Why did he not divorce her? Perhaps he was committed to seeing her wishes honored??
On the other hand, if there was so much "evidence" that he was a wife abuser, hated her and wanted her dead - why did the family not fight like this to gain custody of her?
I suppose the only good to come from this mess is the increase in Living Wills.

I believe in some of my internet readings on this case that there was a court case about the allegations of abuse and they were thrown out for insufficient evidence (I think I have that link posted somewhere in this subject that shows all the legal cases/documents where that happened). Same with the nurses statements of him being an ass to them about her life.

It is hard to see some unbiased facts in this case, and I agree with you that the only good will be the increase in living wills. I've talked to others about this who have talked to their parents and their parents have said "i would rather you be a vegetable instead of six feet undergroun" when their child wished to NOT be like that.

[catland]

Yesterday, in a CNN article on the web, they had a timeline of the case. They showed a picture of Terri before the heart attack. She was an attractive young woman, full of life. I wish they'd use this picture more than the one of the still, emotionless shell that she is now.

Go in peace Terri - you've suffered long enough.

[christa]

Question.

If Terri is PVS . . . why have they given her a morphine drip? Evidently she hasn't had one for the past week . . . you claim she can't feel anything . . . why morphine and why now?

(btw, this is a serious question, i'm not coming down on anyone in particular - i really want to know)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by christa
Question.

If Terri is PVS . . . why have they given her a morphine drip? Evidently she hasn't had one for the past week . . . you claim she can't feel anything . . . why morphine and why now?

(btw, this is a serious question, i'm not coming down on anyone in particular - i really want to know) I have no answer for you. Seems to me, since they claim this is a painless way to die and she feels no pain, she wouldn't need one, eh?

There are more questions than answers in this case. For example:
Why is her husband insisting on creamation the second she dies? Possibly to keep her family from getting an autopsy and showing just how brain damaged (or lack of it) she was?

Since her husband now has a common law wife, why isn't he charged with being a bigamist? That right there shows a conflict of interest.

Why can the govenor pardon criminals on death row, but not help her?

Just too many questions for my peace of mind.

[Luvin Labs]

MOFF,

1. common law marriages were axed out wayyyyy back in the 60's, only CLM before 1968 are legal marriages, and only in certain states (and FL isn't one of them).

2. do we KNOW they aren't giving her drugs for the 'pain' she may or may not feel?

Edit: Just saw on FOX NEWS that they are giving her morphine drips. 10pm news.

3. have you seen her brain scan??? her brain is almost gone!!! Her brain is mush, she is left with just the automatic functions and reflexes. Her brain cannot be 'healed'. "Schiavo's cerebral cortex has been completely destroyed (and has been replaced by cerebrospinal fluid), and there is also damage to the lower brain and brain stem, which controls functions such as breathing and swallowing."

[Luvin Labs]

What I Have Learned from the Schiavo Case

1) Jeb Bush and George W. Bush are all world renowned neurologists.

2) 22 successive court battles that all ended in exactly the same way means there is something wrong with the courts, not the Schindler's case.

3) Mike is after money which is why he turned down 1 million dollars and 10 million dollars to sign over guardianship.

4) Congress and the State Legislature of Florida has nothing better to do than pry into the private medical affairs of others.

5) Pulling life support is bad in Florida when authorized by the legal next-of-kin, but pulling life support is good in Texas when you run out of money and the mother pleads not to pull the plug on her baby.

6) Medical diagnoses are best performed by watching highly editted videotape made by Randall Terry rather than in person by trained physicians.

7) Minimum wage making nursing assistants are more qualified to diagnose a persistant vegetative state than experienced neurologists.

8) Cerebral spinal fluid is a magical potion that can mimic the entire functions of a missing cerebral cortex.

9) 15 years in the same persistant state is not really enough time to make an accurate diagnosis.

10) A feeding tube that infuses yellow nutritional goop is not really "life support".

11) Marriage is the most sacred of all unions, except when it isn't.

12) Interfering in a family's private tragedy is a great reason to cut short a vacation, but getting a memo that warns a known terrorist is determine to strike inside the US is cause to relax and finish up some R&R.

13) Pro-lifers are really compassionate people which is why they are hoping that Michael Schiavo dies a horrible painful death.

14) The Supreme Court of the United States and the State Supreme Court of Florida mean "Maybe" when they are saying "No!".

[Pam]

The issue now I believe is going beyond Terri's right to die. How about her right to be laid to rest as she would like!

From what I understand now, Michael Schiavo will not allow her to have a proper funeral when the time comes. The family are devout Roman Catholics and said their daughter was as well and is entitled to a complete Catholic funeral, with casket, viewing, mass, burial, etc. The husband wants to cremate Terri and bury her in HIS family's plot.

I have heard much over the last few days that there is suspicion that he might have been involved in the heart attack which caused all of time. Some say she was possibly strangled. Should she be allowed an autopsy this might come to light. Hence, Michael's dilemma. Why else the rush to cremate?

If Michael wants to be viewed as something other than a monster he should step up to the plate and allow Terri to pass into her parent's hands after death. Why should he care at that point? The hullaballo over her "right to die" will be over.

I can't help but think he might be doing better than Scott Peterson did in possibly getting away with the perfect murder. No one will ever know, but I do believe if he wants to put an end to the murmuring about his possible part in all of this he should allow an autopsy. I certainly would want to clear my name if it was me.

[GraciesMommy]

I agree, Pam...his behavior in all this is just too weird...why is he so hell bent in going against the parents wishes..my gosh, give the poor people something!

[Samantha Puppy]

Where did you hear about the conflict over what to do after Terri passes? Do you have a URL or is this just hearsay?

[KYS]

It makes me sad/sick this whole thing.
I hate that Terry has to starve
to death in order for her to die as she had wished.
I hope that laws will change so that humans
can die with dignity.

I pray/believe the family/her husband have
always had Terry's best interest at heart.
From what I hear on cable news a lot of rumors are
being said about her husband.
A news repoter who had done a story on Terry a
few years back had observed Terry and
interviewed the staff that cared for her.
The staff was not very found of Terry's husband.
Not because of his lack of concern for his wife,
but because he was extremely demanding on
them to make sure Terry
was well taken care off.
Does this sound like a man
who did not care about his wife?
It has been 15 years now. We are on the outside looking
in. People believe and change the truth out of
desperation.
My heart goes out for Terry,
Terry's husband and her family.
G-d be with them.

[Logan]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
Where did you hear about the conflict over what to do after Terri passes? Do you have a URL or is this just hearsay?

I heard this several times on the news this morning (on the radio). One of the reporters said that this has already been fought out in the courts, too, believe it or not. :( Sorry I don't have a link, but if I see one, I'll come back and add it.

[IRescue452]

If her parents claim she could talk, why didn't they try spoon feeding her? Its not illegal to teach her to swallow. She obviously could swallow before this incident. I just don't understand this. They are deeply religious so why are they trying to keep her from heaven? And for about 17 years they had her in the hospital while her brain turned to mush, I would want my parents and husband to spend all that money on people who would survive or donate to help people in need. I think her parents are truely greedy and ungrateful and should rot in hell. I'm sorry but thats my opnion. I believe that we should have euthanasia for people. Its as bad as people who have hospice care for their pets and keep them alive, suffering, until they rot to death, just so they can selfishly have a few more weeks.

[Edwina's Secretary]

There is nothing about a Catholic burial that includes viewing or open casket. These parents have one of the best pr teams going. They are the ones who have suggested he may have had something to do with her death. Odd they should bring that up now instead of when he was doing fund raisers in order to take her to California to try an experimental treatment for Terri. When he went to nursing school in order to give her better treatment.

At the time her parents accepted him seeing other women....now he is an adulterer. Why an autopsy?? The purpose of an autopsy is to determine cause of death. Why would they want their daughter's body poked and prodded more????

And really....if someone had fought you publically and viciously... including branding you a murderer and adulterer, cost you all your savings in legal fees, and engaged in actions that result in death threats against you and your children....for 12 years (they were in agreement the first three years until the father demanded money)....would you say....here is my wife's body...please make one more public spectacle of her!

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
And really....if someone had fought you publically and viciously... including branding you a murderer and adulterer, cost you all your savings in legal fees, and engaged in actions that result in death threats against you and your children....for 12 years (they were in agreement the first three years until the father demanded money)....would you say....here is my wife's body...please make one more public spectacle of her!

exactly. Schiavo is her last name, he's fought for her rights for over seven years, her parents have flung his name through the mud so many times. If I were him I'd have one hell of an excellent case for slander and libel against the parents and anyone else who doesn't read all the legal documentation and rulings in this case and just blindly believes the parents.

[catland]

I've become as morbidly facinated with this story as so many others - and maybe that's part of the problem.

The fact that the husband and the parents have different opinions on cremation/burial is really none of our business. Yet I'm as guilty as the rest in clinging to the latest of this sad story.

It also shows how much a rumor mill can spin out of control. We've gone from a woman who had a heart attack to Scott Peterson? This sounds like some sort of crazed mob mentatily and we should all be ashamed of ourselves.


Also, think about it, right now there are families all over this world who are having to make the hard decision on whether or not to "pull the plug". How awful it must be for them to hear the words "murderer" when they are going through the most gut-wrenching, heart-breaking moments of their lives.

[caseysmom]

I watched a program on a & e about this. It seemed pretty unbiased, the parents gave every media outlet they could think of those clips of her...I wonder how that would maker her feel?

for that one video of her following the balloon there were hours and hours and hours of tape with nothing...that was a coincidental eye movement...also those are 5 year old tapes, she apparantly looks much worse but her husband never submitted any tapes of her looking blankly for hours and looking how she looks now...the parents should be ashamed of themselves.

[PJ's Mom]

Catland, you summed up my feeling about this very nicely. I agree with you 100%.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by GraciesMommy
I agree, Pam...his behavior in all this is just too weird...why is he so hell bent in going against the parents wishes..my gosh, give the poor people something! I agree with you both too.

What would it hurt to let his parents bury her where they could at least put a flower on her grave now and then. He wants to put her in PA while they all live in FL.

Some families do feel really strongly about creamation. I was so glad I had talked to my father and knew for sure that was what he wanted when the time came. I was able to help the others in the family accept that was his wish. We had never had any one in our family creamated before. I'm thinking that's what I want too. God can put me back together from ashes just as well as from dust on resurrection day.

That may be another thing to put in writing along with your living wills. If you have any preference to being cremated over buried. It sure helps the family in a difficult time, I can promise you that.

[Pam]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
There is nothing about a Catholic burial that includes viewing or open casket.

I am not a Catholic but my Catholic co-workers were involved in a very heated conversation about this when I arrived at work this morning. I was told that it is against Catholic doctrine to be cremated. If this is true, then her religious rights are being violated. But then again everything about this woman has been violated! :mad:


These parents have one of the best pr teams going.

Good Lord Sarah. How heartless can you be? I know you will be glad to see me disappear after this whole mess is over. :)

Why an autopsy??
Simple answer; Why not? Of course if there is something to hide....

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
There is nothing about a Catholic burial that includes viewing or open casket. These parents have one of the best pr teams going. They are the ones who have suggested he may have had something to do with her death. Odd they should bring that up now instead of when he was doing fund raisers in order to take her to California to try an experimental treatment for Terri. When he went to nursing school in order to give her better treatment.

At the time her parents accepted him seeing other women....now he is an adulterer. Why an autopsy?? The purpose of an autopsy is to determine cause of death. Why would they want their daughter's body poked and prodded more????

And really....if someone had fought you publically and viciously... including branding you a murderer and adulterer, cost you all your savings in legal fees, and engaged in actions that result in death threats against you and your children....for 12 years (they were in agreement the first three years until the father demanded money)....would you say....here is my wife's body...please make one more public spectacle of her!

Sara??? Do we <gasp> agree on something??:eek: Can it be??;)

I alternate between feeling sad for everyone, wanting to smash the TV when I hear what "Terri said or did" with a liquid cerebrum, wonder if hubby has any grounds for slander with all the things said about him, now hear mom "can't bear" to see her daughter....stop a moment to be thankful this will NEVER be my situation (unless my old Living Will becomes the target of lawsuits)....wonder why family did not work this hard to remove the poor woman if she ever was indeed in such physical danger from hubby:eek: ....

do we really agree?? Mark your calendar, please!:p

I DO have questions about the RC burial since *I* made all arrangments for the funeral of my born and excommunicated RC when married to my dad without swearing to make my brother and I RC mother 3 years ago (I also initiated her DNR, cessation of forced feedings and suppose I sat by and watched her be "murdered"??) After the funeral, my dad was riddled with some angry mail from her remaining siblings that she did not receive a "proper" burial. Truthfully, I never looked it up and tried to figure out what I did wrong on THAT issue - everyone there was very happy with her burial.:rolleyes:

Does anyone know the specific problems about the RC burial?? Is it simply the cremation? Is this unscriptural?? I really do not know...

PS And...who and what ARE those men in the brown robes?? Priests? Monks?? They are called "Brother"? What are they??

[Edwina's Secretary]

Pam...first and foremost let me say.... I do not confuse a person's value with a person's beliefs. I always miss you when I don't see you around....even though we disagree on some things....

I think the parents are selfish. I believe they are more interested in what they want...which is not to let go of the body of their daughter.

The Catholic Church is opposed to cremation...although it occurs frequently. My father, who is a practicing Catholic, has requested it. But your statement...to which I replied...was about visitation...open casket...

If I....or anyone for whom I am responsible...dies of natural causes...please...no autopsy. Remove the organs so others may live...and then...from dust you come to dust you shall return.

IF they truely believed the husband had engaged in foul play...why wait til now to bring it up? Wouldn't it have been easier to prove much earlier in the process?

And....Congressperson DeLay...of the infamous memo about making political hay of this... was faced with a similar dilemma with his father some years ago. He, his mother and family...chose to let his father die.

[sirrahbed]

I *am* a Christian and considered a "conservative" one at that but I have nothing that I am aware of in common with those folks who have been gathering on the lawn of the Hospice:(

I hate to be associated with that sort of display. Where do they come from???:(

[Pam]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary


And....Congressperson DeLay...of the infamous memo about making political hay of this... was faced with a similar dilemma with his father some years ago. He, his mother and family...chose to let his father die.

Comparing apples and oranges. His dad was on a respirator. Terri was not being kept alive by machines. She needed only food and water just as all of us do. My co-workers were pointing out today that for her to survive 11 days without water is testament to something. Maybe a strong will to live? Who knows.

My concern over all of this mess has been that, without a Living Well, this should not have be allowed. We should always be erring on the side of life. I visit a convalescent center each week. Many of the people there are living lives that most of us would never want to live. What is next? Ending the life of an Alzheimer patient because their quality of life is not good? It is all too sad. :(

[Edwina's Secretary]

To sirrahbed.... I had noticed earlier that you and I agreed on this....I assumed it to be due to the full moon....;) ;)

Roman Catholic practices can vary....although they are not suppose to....based on the country, the diocese, the pastor.

I am loathe to bash the Catholic Church in public....it is like...I can say my sister is a jerk but I would bloody the nose of anyone else who did.

But there is flexibility. Death by suicide is a disqualifier for a church funeral...but if the person was not of right mind when they committed suicide (and who is) then it is okay. (How persmission to marry in the church was granted to my ex-brother-in-law after 17 years of marriage and a child and his current wife who had been married TWICE and had three children is still a bafflement to me.)

So proper can be...in the eyes of the beholder...and the pastor would not have let you do something that was not considered "proper."

and yes...they are monks....

[Pam]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
I *am* a Christian and considered a "conservative" one at that but I have nothing that I am aware of in common with those folks who have been gathering on the lawn of the Hospice:(

I hate to be associated with that sort of display. Where do they come from???:(

I agree with you Deb. Even Terri's brother said nothing can be gained by being disobedient and getting arrested. They were urged to go home and pray for the family. I hope they did.

[caseysmom]

Terry married her husband and had not filed any type of divorce or separation papers...she made him her next of kin..that was her choice....we had a dnr order on my father who had alzheimers...he was more coherent that the woman I see on TV...does that make my mother a murderer?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Mrs. Delay, as the next of kin and in the absence of a living will, was able to make the decision WITHOUT the interference of the federal government.

Mr. Schiavo, as the next of kin and in the absence of a living will, is not able to make the decision WITHOUT the interference of the federal government.

My heart aches for all of them involved. As for those who have inserted themselves into the situation....

[Pam]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Mrs. Delay, as the next of kin and in the absence of a living will, was able to make the decision WITHOUT the interference of the federal government.

Mr. Schiavo, as the next of kin and in the absence of a living will, is not able to make the decision WITHOUT the interference of the federal government.

My heart aches for all of them involved. As for those who have inserted themselves into the situation....

Plugs are pulled every day; plugs that are connected to artificial means of life support. There is nothing artificial about a feeding tube.

Regarding DNR orders that is something else again. Should an Alzheimer patient, or anyone else in a compromised situation, not wish to "come back" that should be honored if that is what the patient wishes. I spoke with a nurse at the center that I visit each week and she said if they should find a patient on the floor who has suffered an apparent heart attack they are compelled to administer CPR, often breaking bones in the rib cage while doing so in those with very brittle bones. The whole situation couldn't be sadder. We have reached a level of ability to keep people alive, that years ago would have most certainly died, and thus these dilemmas. :(

[Samantha Puppy]

Aside from a truly horrible thing happening to this woman, the other thing that makes me said is that the courts had to get involved in the fate of this woman. I don't want some judge deciding whether I live or die, and how.

That said, I can see both sides. I feel it is disgusting that this woman is being dehydrated to death. I don't care if she can feel pain or not (and if she can't, what's with the morphine drip?). Allowing another human being to dehydrate to death is horrendous. If an inmate on death row were found dehydrated to death, there would be a massive investigation and several heads rolling of those "in charge". This woman has committed no crime. Heck, if someone went to a Humane Society and found dogs and cats dehydrated to death, you can't tell me an investigation would be launched there as well. I just cannot grasp why letting Terri dehydrate to death is okay. It isn't. Plain and simple.

Secondly, I get her husband is her legal guardian. But I also feel for the parents. I am not yet a mother, but if my son or daughter were incapacitated and their spouse was making decisions I felt were wrong, I would be upset too! Depending on what those decisions were, I may also fight it in court (depends on the situation). It must be so hard looking at your daughter like that, knowing that YOU gave her life, and now it's up to someone else whether or not it continues. I feel for her parents on that level. Did they take the right course of action? I don't know. I'm not them. I don't think any of us will ever know exactly how they feel, why they feel the way they do, and why they did what they did because we're only getting our information from the media. We're not living it first hand.

Lastly, I find that her husband is a scumbag ONLY on the fact that he has a longtime girlfriend and has children with her. To me, the whole "In sickness and in health, 'Til death do us part" thing means until DEATH do us part. I *can* say that (God forbid), if anything like this were to happen to my husband, I would remain loyal to him until death parted us. Not until I decided it was long enough, I needed to move on and have children by some other person while my husband lay in a hospital somewhere. Absolutely not. So for that reason alone, I find him repulsive.

If in her health, Terri observed Roman Catholic traditions and religion was important to her, she should receive a traditional Roman Catholic burial. I don't know Michael Schiavo's real reasons for opposing that, but it sounds like spite. He should not ignore her faith.

Edited to change "starve" to "dehydrate" for proper medical term usage reasons.

[Luvin Labs]

IF they truely believed the husband had engaged in foul play...why wait til now to bring it up? Wouldn't it have been easier to prove much earlier in the process?

They did, back in 2002.


That said, I can see both sides. I feel it is disgusting that this woman is being starved to death. I don't care if she can feel pain or not (and if she can't, what's with the morphine drip?). Allowing another human being to starve to death is horrendous. If an inmate on death row were found starved to death, there would be a massive investigation and several heads rolling of those "in charge". This woman has committed no crime. Heck, if someone went to a Humane Society and found dogs and cats starved to death, you can't tell me an investigation would be launched there as well. I just cannot grasp why letting Terri starve to death is okay. It isn't. Plain and simple.

Because Terri never wanted to 'live' like this. This is all about following Terri's wishes.


To me, the whole "In sickness and in health, 'Til death do us part" thing means until DEATH do us part. I *can* say that (God forbid), if anything like this were to happen to my husband, I would remain loyal to him until death parted us. Not until I decided it was long enough, I needed to move on and have children by some other person while my husband lay in a hospital somewhere. Absolutely not. So for that reason alone, I find him repulsive.

After trying to help her from 1990 to 1998, and finding out that nothing could be done to help her recover as most of her brain was GONE, he has decided to fulfill her wishes of not wanting to 'live' like this. To me, she died years ago. He is still married to her because he KNOWS that her parents will not follow through with her wishes, so he is taking care of HIS WIFE. As said in the news, he's there quite often at the hospital/hospice with her and making sure she is taken care of. I see him following through with his vows explicitly.

[sirrahbed]

.....with all the disagreement about what a "feeding tube" is or is not, "artificial" or not....I looked closely at my 2000 signed and notarized Living Will and noted that ventilators and feeding tubes are in the same paragraph and both considered "life support" and are to either be removed or not even begun if my condition should become dependant on them. There is a place to initial if you believe in this way and want them refused. There is no distinction between the status of feeding tubes or vents.

While I fully agree that a feeding tube IS life support in the same way as is a respirator/ventilator (both air and food is needed to stay akive) .....I wonder if this differs from state to state.

[caseysmom]

the parents of terry schiavo had wonderful things to say about there son in law when he was suing for malpractice...apparantly they say he offered them half of the money and when he didn't give that to them it got ugly...I personally feel that both sides have long since forgotten about terry.

[Pam]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs



Because Terri never wanted to 'live' like this. This is all about following Terri's wishes.
I see him following through with his vows explicitly.

Luvin Labs with all due respect I don't think you have been following this as carefully as I have. I have become quite fixated on the whole thing, much to my amazement. I recently watched a nurse on TV who tended Terri for two years and knew Michael very well. She asked Michael years ago what Terri's wishes were and he said "I have no idea." Why does her testimony mean nothing???

I have also listened to interviews with her close girlfriends. They do not like Michael Schiavo and reported he was very controlling and often made Terri cry. They said she didn't share this part of her life with her parents because she didn't want to disappoint them. I find these girls to be very credible. How many of us would confide in a girlfriend before a parent. I think probably an awful lot.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
Because Terri never wanted to 'live' like this. This is all about following Terri's wishes.Okay, well I may not want to live like that either but I certainly don't want to be starved to death!!
I see him following through with his vows explicitly. How is committing adultery following through with his marriage vows explicitly??

So if my husband breaks his back and cannot be the person I married (for awhile, or ever, take your pick), that means I have the right to go find someone else? No way! FOR BETTER OR WORSE. IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH. 'TIL DEATH DO US PART.

Main Entry: death
Pronunciation: 'deth
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English deeth, from Old English dEath; akin to Old Norse dauthi death, deyja to die -- more at DIE
1 : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life

[Pam]

Sirrabed, (Deb) there is a difference between a ventilator and a respirator as I am sure you know. A ventilator assists with breathing where a respirator does all of the breathing for youl. I know this from my father, father-in-law, and brother-in-law who all suffered strokes. They were all on respirators in the beginning and recovered and moved to ventilators and then began breathing on their own.

[caseysmom]

I didn't find that nurse credible at all.

[lbaker]

Removing someone's feeding tube does NOT cause starvation, cause of death is dehydration. Still it's death (not murder) and I have already said I'm staying out of any more discussion here - especially about moral issues or personal opinions, but I just wanted to say - if we are going to discuss medical situations let's at least use the proper medical terms.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by lbaker
Removing someone's feeding tube does NOT cause starvation, cause of death is dehydration. Still it's death (not murder) and I have already said I'm staying out of any more discussion here - especially about moral issues or personal opinions, but I just wanted to say - if we are going to discuss medical situations let's at least use the proper medical terms. Fair enough. The word "starve" and all of its conjugations have been changed to "dehydrate" and its various conjugations in my post on page 8.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Pam
Sirrabed, (Deb) there is a difference between a ventilator and a respirator as I am sure you know. ..
No, as far as I have ever known - the two words are interchangeable for a life-sustaining device to make breathing happen. I have been out of nursing for so many years but still believe it is the same?? I did some brief googling and find this to be so. A vent or respirator *can* have multiple controls ranging from assist ....like say, one breath after a 20 second pause - OR maybe 6-8 automatic breaths/minute to full vent, either continual nonstop or after a set timed pause. That is all I know and back in "the old days" - we only used the word vent even though they ranged in their performance. I suspect "respirator" describes a more sophisticated vent. I am not being picky - just using the terms as I recall them. My Living Will uses the catch-all "life sustaining treatment". I really think they are the same thing.

[caseysmom]

sirrahbed...according to this you are right.



http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/mplusdictionary.html

type in respirator

[ramanth]

My step-grandma died of bone cancer recently. Towards the end, she refused to eat and the family had to decide whether or not to put in a feeding tube to force her to eat.

In the end, they decided against it. Why prolong her suffering?

So I guess in a way we starved/dehydrated grandma to death.

In the end we stop eating, stop breathing, organs shut down... that's death. It's not supposed to be pretty.

My dad has a Living Will and he does not want to be on any machines and has signed a DNR.

He called his mom to express his wishes to her.

She promptly told him that she'd rather have him on a machine than see him die and would take my mom to court if she had too.

:eek: Some people need to learn how to let go.

My dad told my mom that if anything happened to him, to wait until he was verified dead before calling his mom.

How sad is that.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by ramanth
So I guess in a way we starved/dehydrated grandma to death.
You have assorted murderers posting with you Kimmy. I am one, too.

In the end we stop eating, stop breathing, organs shut down... that's death. It's not supposed to be pretty.
True - but I think my mom's death was very peaceful and not at all unpleasant to watch - once my dad went home....

My dad has a Living Will and he does not want to be on any machines and has signed a DNR. My dad told my mom that if anything happened to him, to wait until he was verified dead before calling his mom.
Good - it is safe for your mom to call his mom then....(don't want fighting, do you??)

How sad is that.
I totally do NOT know WHY I am finding humor in any of it - guess I am past pathetic???....No, I think all of this has generated healthy taking and thinking about real life and death issues - hopefully while we are still healthy and sound-minded enough to make these decisions. It seems to me to be terribly unfair to leave it all to the living to sort out - when we know more of the options...NOW. Yes?

[Edwina's Secretary]

I have told my husband the greatest compliment he could pay me, should I die before him, is to remarry quickly. That marriage was a good thing. If I should be in a long term coma or mentally gone because of dementia or the like...I would WANT him to have female companionship.

Life is for the living....and it is very short. I would not want him to be lonely. I trust he could find ways to honor my memory and still find some pleasure in life.

[Luvin Labs]

Luvin Labs with all due respect I don't think you have been following this as carefully as I have. I have become quite fixated on the whole thing, much to my amazement. I recently watched a nurse on TV who tended Terri for two years and knew Michael very well. She asked Michael years ago what Terri's wishes were and he said "I have no idea." Why does her testimony mean nothing???

I have also listened to interviews with her close girlfriends. They do not like Michael Schiavo and reported he was very controlling and often made Terri cry. They said she didn't share this part of her life with her parents because she didn't want to disappoint them. I find these girls to be very credible. How many of us would confide in a girlfriend before a parent. I think probably an awful lot.

I have been, reading up on just about every website I find dealing with this case, biased sites and unbiased sites. I don't think that nurses testimony means much, frankly. And what about the other witnesses who stated that Terri doesn't want to live like that? Believe one nurse who didn't hear it from Terri, or from several others who heard it from Terri?

And, if her friends knew about this from Terri, why didn't they step up when this happened??? Especially when her parents said something about the bone scan????


How is committing adultery following through with his marriage vows explicitly??

So if my husband breaks his back and cannot be the person I married (for awhile, or ever, take your pick), that means I have the right to go find someone else? No way! FOR BETTER OR WORSE. IN SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH. 'TIL DEATH DO US PART.

Please come up with a BETTER 'example' of something comparable to the condition Terri is in... yeesh.

Your 'example' is comparing apples to oranges. Hubby who breaks back is totally different from being in a PVS like Terri is.

After he's exhausted all efforts, and found out that there is NO CHANCE OF RECOVERY, that she is basically a body with NO COGNITIVE brain functions, he decided to fulfill Terri's wishes of not living like that. He's BEEN with her this WHOLE time, in sickness and in health, and he's basically considered her GONE just like everyone ELSE who's evaluated her and examined her!... So he has every RIGHT to continue his life while fighting for her rights. He's STILL married to her.

Breaking a back and being fed through a feeding tube are totally not the same.


In the end we stop eating, stop breathing, organs shut down... that's death. It's not supposed to be pretty.

agreed. death never is pretty.

[caseysmom]

I am not sure how someone here can think they are following this more than someone else...sorry that is just not very nice.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
So he has every RIGHT to continue his life while fighting for her rights. He's STILL married to her.That's my point. They're still married. He should NOT have a girlfriend on the sidemuchless children!


Breaking a back and being fed through a feeding tube are totally not the same. My point there was that the person changed from the person that entered into the marriage. I am well aware that a broken back and someone in Terri's state do not equal the same thing. Don't be so literal.

[caseysmom]

I do think he should have divorced her and relinqued control to her parents...

[catland]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I have told my husband the greatest compliment he could pay me, should I die before him, is to remarry quickly. That marriage was a good thing. If I should be in a long term coma or mentally gone because of dementia or the like...I would WANT him to have female companionship.

Life is for the living....and it is very short. I would not want him to be lonely. I trust he could find ways to honor my memory and still find some pleasure in life.

I agree - providing that there is a shrine with a lifesize picture of me above their bed.:rolleyes:

OK - so maybe this is the wrong thread for humor, but then again maybe it isn't. A sense of humor is one of the great gifts given to us. Terri "died" years ago. If that was me in her place I would be delighted that my husband was able to find someone (almost) as wonderful as me.

As long as I'm hopelessly digressing - anyone familiar with the movie "Highlander"? - about this guy who finds out he's immortal and will never age... he marries (this is in 16th century Scotland), and he loves his wife very much and she ages and grows old while he is still young but he never leaves her and when she is dying she asks him to remember her and light a candle on her birthday - which he does for the next 400 years - anyway, my point being, she let him go - she wasn't jealous that he was living longer than her - she was only sad that she couldn't be there for the journey. (this scene makes me cry every time I see it)

So, my point being - if he really was the heartless jerk that some want to believe that he is, he could have walked away years ago - but he didn't. Can any of us imagine being saddled with the burden that he has - only to have the president on down try to get him to relinquish his vows?

oh well, I've rambled on enough for one post...

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
My point there was that the person changed from the person that entered into the marriage. I am well aware that a broken back and someone in Terri's state do not equal the same thing. Don't be so literal.

:rolleyes: sorry, but it sure looked like a comparision to me.

but still, she didn't break her back, she is not up and speaking and eating and drinking like someone who breaks their back would, even if the only similar thing is both of them are 'changed' from what they were when married... since people can and do change during their marriage to someone (i.e. new job, new baby, new dog, etc etc)

A broken back and being a vegetable are totally different changes, one you cannot come back from (brain practically gone, can't talk or eat, etc.) and the other you might be able to come back from (not to mention that person can talk, masticate, brain is ALL there, etc)... Perhaps if your example were more along the lines of what is happening with terri that would be more appropriate.


So, my point being - if he really was the heartless jerk that some want to believe that he is, he could have walked away years ago - but he didn't. Can any of us imagine being saddled with the burden that he has - only to have the president on down try to get him to relinquish his vows?

Exactly, if he didn't give a hoot about Terri he wouldn't be there with her now.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
:rolleyes: sorry, but it sure looked like a comparision to me.

but still, she didn't break her back, she is not up and speaking and eating and drinking like someone who breaks their back would, even if the only similar thing is both of them are 'changed' from what they were when married. I guess I don't get your reasoning for stating that... since people can and do change during their marriage to someone (i.e. new job, new baby, new dog, etc etc), like I said a broken back and being a vegetable are totally different changes, one you cannot come back from (brain practically gone, can't talk or eat, etc.) and the other you might be able to come back from (not to mention that person can talk, masticate, etc)...
I'm not going to talk in circles. My point was that you made it sound that since Terri had been altered from the person Michael married, he had every right to move on with his life and commit adultery. As assinine as my "broken back" comment was in your mind, your thought that he had/has a right to have a girlfriend (and children) is just as ridiculous to me. I'm not saying you don't have a right to have that opinion. I'm merely just voicing my own on the matter.

If, God forbid, my husband were ever put in a situation anywhere near Terri's (where his mind was forever and irrevocably changed), you can bet your life that I would not be having relations (and children) with other men. When I vowed to stand by my husband, I meant for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death with all my heart and soul. Not any other circumstance. And I would hold him to the same accord were I put in a situation where I was in a conditions similar to Terri's.

Like I said, you are more than free to have that opinion and I am more than free to feel just the opposite. :p

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
I'm not going to talk in circles. My point was that you made it sound that since Terri had been altered from the person Michael married, he had every right to move on with his life and commit adultery. As assinine as my "broken back" comment was in your mind, your thought that he had/has a right to have a girlfriend (and children) is just as ridiculous to me. I'm not saying you don't have a right to have that opinion. I'm merely just voicing my own on the matter.

i didn't think your thought was 'assinine', i just think it in no way compares to the state terri is in. although IMO I don't agree with him on having children, I think he should be allowed to move on in some way (dating perhaps, but not children).


If, God forbid, my husband were ever put in a situation anywhere near Terri's (where his mind was forever and irrevocably changed), you can bet your life that I would not be having relations (and children) with other men. When I vowed to stand by my husband, I meant for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death with all my heart and soul. Not any other circumstance. And I would hold him to the same accord were I put in a situation where I was in a conditions similar to Terri's.

its all personal choice frankly. I also would not want to move on while my SO was in the hospital, even IF he said to move on if he's ever in that condition. i'm just curious if terri and hubby talked about that and what was said.


Like I said, you are more than free to have that opinion and I am more than free to feel just the opposite. :p

:P exactly. this world would be BORING if we all agreed on everything, dontya think? :)

[tatsxxx11]

Morphine drips are routinely given to patients in the end stages, be they in pain or not, most often to lessen labored, fitful breathing indicative of impending death (Cheyne-Stokes) and to sedate other autonomic nervous responses that all dying patients experience, many of which are often difficult for the family to experience.

I have cared for hundreds of patients in my nursing career on "respirators." The terms respirator and ventilator are interchangeable, though recently the term "ventilator" is preferred. But both refer to any device delivering mechanically assisted "respirations" or "ventilation" via an endotracheal tube inserted into the trachea via the nose or mouth or via a tracheotomy. The "vents" or respirations can be adjusted to be administered automatically, e.g. a set number per minute, total tidal volume, etc. or adjusted to "trip" or assist when the patient voluntarily initiates a breath.

[chelsea]

None of these people are taking into consideration the friends and family members of the other hospice patients there. If this happened to me, heads would be rolling outside...



Hospice Protests Disturb Visitors
Delays to See Dying Loved Ones Add to Grief
By JILL BARTON, AP

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (March 26) - Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away.

She got there - one minute too late.

Dozens of protesters have arrived since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.

Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye. When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.

The delays lasted three to four minutes - the last of her grandfather's life.

"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."

Woodside Hospice has 70 patients besides Schiavo, whose parents are desperately trying to have her feeding tube reconnected. Dozens of protesters have arrived from across the nation since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.

Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.

"To have to maneuver through all of this and have a hostile environment outside when all they want is peace and quiet and to enjoy those few days they have left with a loved one is a horror," said Dr. Morton Getz, executive director of Douglas Gardens Hospice in Miami.

Getz said many people with a family member in a hospice have to make the same excruciating decision that courts have made for Schiavo.

"It's causing a lot of grief and questions in their own mind on whether they did the right thing," he said. "It's unconscionable to have a family member to be near the end stages of life and to get there, you have to walk through signs that say, 'Murderer."'

Most protesters direct their signs and their chants against the courts and Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, who insists she would not want to be kept alive artificially.

But walking through a hostile environment can only add stress to what's already an emotionally draining situation.

"It probably has the same psychological effect on the residents' families as it does on someone who is walking into an abortion clinic and facing signs and aggressive behavior," said Elizabeth Foley, a Florida International University law professor who specializes in bioethics.

Over the past few days, as Schiavo's parents' attempts to have their daughter's feeding tube reinserted repeatedly failed, signs outside the hospice have grown more desperate. Doctors have said Schiavo would probably die within a week or two of the feeding tube being removed.

Messages compare Michael Schiavo to Scott Peterson, convicted of killing his wife and unborn child in California, and John Evander Couey, who allegedly murdered a 9-year-old girl in Homosassa.

One woman in a wheelchair regularly moves up and down sidewalks in front of the hospice yelling in a megaphone, "We're disabled, not disposable!" and "Terri is a person, not a vegetable!"

Relatives of hospice residents say the clamor - intended to rattle Michael Schiavo - rattles their patience.

"It's a real pain in the neck," said Bill Douglass, whose mother-in-law is a resident. He said the only consolation is that she is "oblivious" to the outside scene.

Police and hospice officials say they are trying to minimize the intrusion on hospice residents and their families, and that the security measures are meant to protect the privacy and safety of all residents, not just Schiavo.

But Johnson, 24, said her 73-year-old grandfather, Thomas Bone, was restricted from moving freely around the hospice grounds during his final days. He died just hours after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed and protests intensified.

"They've taken away hospice's greatest quality, that it is peaceful and serene and quiet and calming - and it's not fair," Johnson said.

[Edwina's Secretary]

If, God forbid, my husband were ever put in a situation anywhere near Terri's (where his mind was forever and irrevocably changed), you can bet your life that I would not be having relations (and children) with other men. When I vowed to stand by my husband, I meant for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death with all my heart and soul. Not any other circumstance. And I would hold him to the same accord were I put in a situation where I was in a conditions similar to Terri's.

I am in awe of your moral certitude....especially in one so young. I'm also curious.....if....God forbid.... your husband were struck with an incurable and terminal condition ...say Lou Gerigh's (I know that isn't spelled correctly!) and he told you he did not want a feeding tube or other mechanical life support....what would you do?

Not argumentative...just curious....

[Pam]

Deb and Sandra, thank you for helping to clear some confusion. The strokes I mentioned occurred in 1975, 1993 and 1995, none real recent. I possibly could have misunderstand what I was being told back in 1975 with my dad as I was quite a bit younger. In 1993, however, my sister-in-law called me to say that her husband had been upgraded from a respirator to a vent. Maybe it is classified slightly differently depending on how much it is assisting??

Caseysmom, I apologize if I sounded rude. It just bothers me when people state, as if it was a proven fact, that the husband is doing as she wished. No one really knows and there are just too many conflicting stories about what she would have wanted. I am certainly not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I am in awe of your moral certitude....especially in one so young. I'm also curious.....if....God forbid.... your husband were struck with an incurable and terminal condition ...say Lou Gerigh's (I know that isn't spelled correctly!) and he told you he did not want a feeding tube or other mechanical life support....what would you do?

Not argumentative...just curious.... I would honor his wishes, even though I may not want to. In a time like that, it's about him - not me. (Although I know I'm going to be a mess if he goes first... I just watched Ladder 49 and about had a conniption at the end because it made me so scared of losing my husband at all, but especially young).

We're preparing to have living wills written up just so nothing like the Schiavo situation will happen to us and we can prove that those truly are his wishes.

[catland]

Chelsea - that article was heart-breaking. Funny how the protestors - who claim to know what's best for everyone else, are just about the most stuck-up bunch of egotistical morons walking around. Using these families (not just Shiavo's) as their fodder for their cause and their 15 minutes of fame.



:mad:

[tatsxxx11]

Hi Pam:) You know Pam, maybe your SIL was referring to a venting mask, which is sometimes given after a patient has been "extubated," that is the endotracheal tube removed/taken off the respirator to provide oxygen. It's an oxygen mask, placed over the face and nose...the patient can remove it to talk, eat, etc. It's all so complicated, I know!;)

[Pam]

Thanks Sandra. You are right. It is all very confusing for sure. :) I am learning lots tonight. Just heard on TV that cremation is allowed now (since 1963) in the Catholic church. I must remember to update my co-workers. :)

[Luvin Labs]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8016906

The husband of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo has ordered an autopsy after she dies to silence allegations his plan to cremate her body is aimed at hiding something, his lawyer said on Monday.

He said Michael Schiavo, who has been pitted against the parents in a seven-year legal conflict over whether to allow Schiavo to die, requested an official autopsy to show the "massive" extent of the brain damage she suffered in 1990.

[Logan]

I had an indepth conversaton with a good friend today about this whole situation. And I think the bottom line for both of us in this particular case was that it wasn't a case of deciding whether to choose to use a feeding tube, but whether to remove it.........a huge difference in my opinion. Even on the CBS News tonight (first time I have ever watched that particular news report), they said that she was a perfectly normal, and healthy, by most standards and didn't require a lot of medical attention over the years. The particular report was about the expenses associated with her care.

Many people that we all know have decided to refuse any heroic effort when it came to severely injured or sick family members. I've had that situation in my own family. But to allow the feeding tube, then ask for it to be removed seems harsh and unnatural. That's what I struggle with. I do hate the publicity that has come along with this whole thing..........it certainly isn't good for Terri Shiavo, and isn't good for her parents/family or Michael Shiavo either. I pray for all of them.

Logan

[joycenalex]

logan, she doesn't have bed sores. that is a testimony to the excellent, high quality and high maintence care that she's gotten over the years. imagine, no self directed movements and no bed sores. having worked in health care for many years, that is very surprising

[Pam]

I heard on CNN last night that Michael Schiavo is calling for an autopsy, then heard later on another report that an autopsy is required in the state of Florida when cremation is going to occur. So it seems that Michael has no choice in the situation. I will be glad when this is all over. At least it has focused a lot of attention on having an Advanced Directive.

[caseysmom]

I couldn't find anywhere a rule that an autopsy is required in florida when a cremation is going to be done??

[Pam]

Originally posted by caseysmom
I couldn't find anywhere a rule that an autopsy is required in florida when a cremation is going to be done??

Larry King mentioned that there would be an autopsy. Later in the evening I was watching Fox (maybe Greta VanSustern's show? where they mentioned that autopsies are required in Florida when cremation will be performed. I believe it was a reporter from Court TV who said that. I am sure as Terri's life draws to a close it will come up again. Stay tuned.

[caseysmom]

I have just never seen so much misinformation in my life, it was said that a brain scan was never done, that has been shown to be false. I think the media is printing pretty much whatever they hear with no research whatsoever.

[catland]

I don't have a problem with the concept of removing a feeding tube vs. never using one.

Consider the timeline.

She had the heart attack.
They didn't know the extent of the damage at that time.

Do they say "well, just in case she's brain-dead, lets not bother with a feeding tube?" - of course not.

But once test after test has conclusively proved that no one is home and that she is indeed brain-dead - then it seems more cruel to keep the corpse alive because of a false sense of hope.

If her arm was missing we could all say "oh look, her arm is missing" - but because you see her hair and eyes and face, you have the mistaken belief that some part of her brain still exists when it doesn't.

Not that long ago there was a story of a chicken with its head cut off. A person kept the chicken "alive" for quite a while by force feeding it down the hole in its neck. It's heart kept on beating and it kept on breathing - yet was it really "alive"?

(I know, I know, people aren't chickens - but which story is more macabre?)

[Pam]

Caseysmom, Fox News just now stated again that Florida law requires an autopsy for a cremation. (Sheppard Smith reporting)

Catland, I have seen nothing that indicates she is brain dead.

[caseysmom]

According to this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1004593/posts

it sounds like its up to the medical examiner's discretion.

[Pam]

Good work Caseysmom. I can only echo this from the site you found.

Terri is not in a coma.
She is not on life support.
She laughs, cries, vocalizes.
Her face brightens for her mother.
She swallows.

”So why don't they let her mother feed her?”

The husband/guardian doesn't allow.
His lawyers don't allow.
The judge & courts do not allow.

http://hometown.aol.com/shezza/myhomepage/terri_and_mom.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

[caseysmom]

Its scary and frustrating to me because I feel like I don't trust either side, I feel like they are blinded by their hate for the other.

Brain scan's have shown here cerebral cortex has liquified...as far as her knowing whats going on...I sure hope she doesn't.

[caseysmom]

Pam...I might add I have become unusually fixated on this case also...guess it touches a cord with many of us.

[Pam]

Originally posted by caseysmom
Pam...I might add I have become unusually fixated on this case also...guess it touches a cord with many of us.

Indeed it does. I am drawn to this in a way I could have not imagined. I wonder what the implications will be going forward. My heart aches for the parents. They obviously love her and want to care for her and are not being allowed to do so. I just cannot imagine their pain. Without a living will how can anyone rule against them?

[catland]

Originally posted by Pam
Terri is not in a coma.
She is not on life support.
She laughs, cries, vocalizes.
Her face brightens for her mother.
She swallows.

”So why don't they let her mother feed her?”

The husband/guardian doesn't allow.
His lawyers don't allow.
The judge & courts do not allow.


Who do we believe anymore? what you describe is not a person in a persistant vegitative state.

What I beleive - (and who knows if it is the truth) is that she is PVS and everything else is deluded wishful thinking.

If she truely wasn't brain dead and was capable of such things, then this wouldn't be happening. Those who say she has these capabilities are the heartless people - not her husband and not the courts. We are being manipulated to believe their sick version of "the truth". I don't believe them, but sadly, I think that no matter what the outcome of the autopsy, they will still find a way to twist the truth to their own distorted, demented version of it to use for political gains.

[Pam]

Catland, please look inside your heart for a minute. Are you a parent? Do you have a daughter? Is your daughter alive after a 15 year horrific accident? Would you not want her to live if you saw recognition and cognitive function in her eyes? Would you not want her to live if you had never discussed her feelings about being kept alive in a compromised state? Unless you can answer yes to all of the above questions you are in no way able to begin to relate to the pain of these parents much less acuse them of anything.

[Samantha Puppy]

That's one of my main arguments with people who stand there and bash her parents. While maybe their course of action wasn't necessarily the right one, can they honestly say that THEY would stand by and let their child's spouse make what they feel to be absolutely WRONG decisions? That actually quiets a good many of the people I talk to.

My mother is one of those very spiritual, "don't let me live like that" type of people but even SHE said that if something like that happened to me and she believed in her heart and soul that my husband was making the wrong decisions regarding me, my welfare and fate, she would fight him.

I have to say, even though I'm not yet a mother, I would do the same thing for my children.

[lbaker]

I do have a daughter. Also a son. Also several grandsons. My mother recently died after a rather long painful illness, and yes.. she had a DNR notice and we had no doubts about what she did and did not want to have her last few months/weeks/days like. But I would pray to be honest enough with myself to know the difference between involuntary nerve spasms and recognition. Also to know the difference between wishful thinking and raw, cold reality.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by lbaker
I do have a daughter. Also a son. Also several grandsons. My mother recently died after a rather long painful illness, and yes.. she had a DNR notice and we had no doubts about what she did and did not want to have her last few months/weeks/days like. But I would pray to be honest enough with myself to know the difference between involuntary nerve spasms and recognition. Also to know the difference between wishful thinking and raw, cold reality. True. But don't you think, as a mother, that seeing your child in a horrible, no-hope state for 15+ years would be more devastating than losing her to death? I would. That is the one thing that keeps me from being selfish when thinking of what I'd do in this situation with my husband. It would kill me to go to him every day, seeing him like that, than it would be to lose him to death and know that he was in peace. UNLESS I *knew* that he wasn't just experiencing involuntary nerve spasms, etc. Know what I mean?

I understand BOTH sides of the story, in all honesty (well, except for the fact that Michael has a girlfriend and children while still married to a woman in Terri's condition, which I think is despicable). We will never, ever know the cold hard truth so all we have to go on is what we read and what we feel we would do in a similar situation. I pray for all of those involved, most expecially Terri. She truly is getting the raw end of the deal.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by Pam
Caseysmom, Fox News just now stated again that Florida law requires an autopsy for a cremation. (Sheppard Smith reporting)

Catland, I have seen nothing that indicates she is brain dead. Plus the most misunderstood organ in the body is the brain. There is about 50% of it that they have no idea what it does or is capable of doing. Who knows but what it could take over some of the functions of other parts of the brain if it needed to?

One thing to think about (and yes, it applied to my family when my dad died) is Terri's family have loved her her entire life. The husband is just a stranger (to them at least) who married their daughter and may / or may not really love her.

When you've loved someone your entire life (or theirs), it's hard to sit by and watch someone else (that you may not trust completely), make decisions for your loved one that you don't agree with.

My dad was in a coma when my step mom made the decision to take him off a feeding tube. He would still respond to my voice but no one else's. I knew he had a DNR and a living will but I still didn't agree with her decision. He was dying anyway, there was no reason to put him through dehydration and starvation too.:(

[Pam]

Originally posted by lbaker
I would pray to be honest enough with myself to know the difference between involuntary nerve spasms and recognition. Also to know the difference between wishful thinking and raw, cold reality.

Laurie I would certainly pray that you never have to weigh these facts nor, God forbid, should any of us have to. That's why all of the dialog. My dad lingered for 6 years after a severely incapaciting stroke. Many times he expressed that he would like to die. Of course there were just as many days that he laughed and enjoyed life and was thankful to be alive. I know Terri's situation is quite a bit different, but when we don't know for sure we should not be so quick to judge what really is raw, cold reality. I don't feel I am adequate to assess this and I certainly don't feel good trusting the medical community to tell me what they feel is going on either. I would much rather err on the side of my loved one and life before trusting "outsiders' opinions." It is a personal decision I know, but unless there is a living will no one really knows and I don't believe it is right to assume. (I sound like a broken record. Sorry. :rolleyes: ) Ripley says hi by the way! ;)

[tortuga55]

I think of the situation this way....
If she wanted to die she would have long ago, people who do not want to get better do not. The will to live works in two ways, it helps you live and it helps you die. I think the parents know what is best for her.
The idea that he sued the doctors for money to take care of her and then decides that she wanted to die when he has a girl friend seems fishy. I personally would want my mom to make the decision, she hears god and god would tell my mom what I wanted. I dont know what it is like to be in that state so I can not decide if it is worth giving up over.
Terri obviously thinks its worth living, or she would have died long ago. She would have given up. They say when coma patents wake up they are awaire of everything that went on while they were asleep, why would she not be able to tell whats going on around her.

[carole]

I have read most of this thread and found it very interesting and informative, I have not followed this situation entirely, so some of the revelations here were suprising.

In all honesty I cannot see how anyone could find the parents selfish, as a parent I fully understand where they are coming from, and I also find it terrible that the husband has more rights than the parent, who carried that baby, gave birth and nutured her to womanhood, he is merely a stranger she fell in love with and married, of course he has rights, but it should be equal IMO.

The media hype does so much damage, one never knows what to believe about her husband, one can only say that the parents have no alterior motives, how could they? but that he possibly could.

I have mixed emotions on this one, I think if it were me I would let my child die, but then I also strongly believe no-one really knows until faced with this situation.

One positive thing about this, it has got people talking within their families , making live wills, expressing their wishes, my son said to me the other day, he would not under any circumstances wish to live if he were like Terri, that is something I would have to consider lord forbide it ever happened to my family.

It is a sad situation all over, and one can only feel compassion and sadness for all concerned.

It does sound so cruel to starve her to death, but some are saying it is painless, however my thoughts are How do they really know this? it is always in the back of my mind, yes we are kinder to our pets and let them die quickly and with dignity.

I felt horrified to think they may try at this stage to revive her (correct me if I am wrong in this understanding) if the parents won their appeal, would that in itself not be cruel, if even possible.

[tortuga55]

I heard the husband is going to have her obtopsied when she dies to quote "prove to the media how saverly brain damaged she was." She is not dead yet and he talks as if she is. When my grandfater died it took weeks to talk as if he was really gone. Why does he feel he has to prove that his decision to kill her was the right one. If he believes he is right why prove it to everyone. Maybe he wants to prove he was right to himself?

[LKPike]

Originally posted by KYS
.
G-d be with them.

don't take this personally because I'm honestly not targeting you only! I've seen several people doing this but your the first one I saw in this post, ...

off topic, but why is everyone online lately saying G-d, instead of God?? [[or doG]] Maybe I missed the meeting to decide god is now a dirty word? or are "we" all just that chicken of words? :p

buckbuck-buckcuck!

[caseysmom]

On a side note, this is a very controversial issue and everyone is being very civil about it....props to all of us!

[lbaker]

Thank you Pam, I put my two cents in early but then decided to drop out because I didn't want my own feelings to reflect on anyone elses' opinions of me, or of me on them. I dearly love and respect those of yours, Logans, Donnas' and all - that may differ in several respects.. but we still can be dear friends and have much in common. That is what makes us a bit more mature about the whole matter I hope. I didn't want those feelings to change our relationships. I think that this board can be helpful and knowledgeable for all of us as long as we maintain our dignity and respect. I just knew, Pam, that Badger and Ripley probably P.M.'ed each other and said... let it be;) Sometimes I think our lifemate pets are wiser than we are. Excuse me but Badger is barking at me right now and I must see to him :rolleyes:

[KYS]

LKPike:
but why is everyone online lately saying G-d, instead of God?? ] Maybe I missed the meeting to decide god is now a dirty word? or are "we" all just that chicken of words? :p>>>>>>>

Not taken personally at all. :D
I was taught never say
G-d's name in vein. :)
It is out of respect. Just like a person would where
wear a hat or scarf when
you are in a religious place.

[Buddy Blaze Lover]

Originally posted by tortuga55
I heard the husband is going to have her obtopsied when she dies to quote "prove to the media how saverly brain damaged she was." She is not dead yet and he talks as if she is. When my grandfater died it took weeks to talk as if he was really gone. Why does he feel he has to prove that his decision to kill her was the right one. If he believes he is right why prove it to everyone. Maybe he wants to prove he was right to himself?

I heard that too!!:(:(:( This whole thing makes me so sad for Terri and the entire family...this is a HUMAN being people! How can Michael and these judges do this?? Did anyone see that talk by that lady who had something like the same thing that Terri has, and came out of it?? There IS hope, if people will just give her a chance!!:( But unfortunately, everyone's just calling her a "vegetable." *sigh*

KYS--me too--but I think you can use God's name when you mean it in a reverent way, not in "vain."

[moosmom]

I heard on the news tonight that Rev. Jesse Jackson is now on his soapbox. Where the hell was he when all this was happening. I swear this guy is never happy until he's the center of attention. :mad: :mad:

[chelsea]

I find the fact that everyone is making such a big deal over someone that was gone years ago very upseting. In that same state a little girl was RAPED AND MURDERED by a sick subhuman being that should have been in jail instead of out stalking little children. Terri's case is sad but it is a family matter and not a crime. However we should be putting all of our efferts into protecting our children. Where are all of the protestors demanding that our children should be kept safe from convicted child molesters!! :confused: Where is your outrage over the rape and murder of poor nine year old Jessica!?! :confused: Take a look at the number of registered sex offenders in your county, I did and the numbers shocked me and outraged me, especially when I read that all they got in a lot of cases was probation. :mad:

[lizzielou742]

I feel this entire situation is just beyond sad. My grandfather starved/dehydrated to death basically, he had esophigeal (sp?) cancer and after it closed off his esophagus completely, it was downhill quickly from there. I think he lived about 14 days (maybe a little less) after he was able to stop getting fluids down, and all of those days he was basically semi-conscious and in a lot of pain. I was 20 at the time and he lived with us, I took care of him during the day while my dad was at work. I had to try to squirt liquid morphine down his throat twice a day for the pain, and in the last week or so he couldn't even get that down his throat. It was a very rough thing for me to go through; I can not even imagine what it was like for him. It was awful, and it was a fate I would not wish on anyone, whether they are a "vegetable" like Terri Schiavo or a person of normal abilities like my grandpa. It was miserable, truly truly miserable, I really can't even describe it. Because of my experience, I find it very hard to believe that Terri Schiavo is slipping away painlessly. Although her situation and my grandpa's are obviously very different, after seeing what I saw I cannot imagine that this is an easy and peaceful going for her at all.

As far as the decisions the courts have made - I haven't seen much of the info on this case. I've just caught the stories here and there on the news. But I would have to imagine that a judge in a case like this would carefully consider both sides and rule in the way he saw fit, which is the judge's job to do. I'm not qualified to form a complete opinion on whether or not she should be allowed to die because I don't know all the facts. I do think it's horrid that political parties of both sides are trying to use this case as their new "issue of the month" to sway people to their sides. That's just completely wrong and it makes me so angry.

This whole thing is just very heartwrenching for everyone involved. And I agree with you, chelsea, that there are a lot of crime problems people could be focusing their energy on instead. I do hope that this case encourages others to create wills and express their wishes to their loved ones, and maybe in that way some good can come of this in the end.

[Pam]

Lizzielou how heartwrenching for you and your grandfather. I am glad you were able to be there for him. (((hugs)))

I heard that now the pope is on a feeding tube but it is in his mouth. My father-in-law briefly had a feeding tube in his mouth after his stroke, as one side of his throat was paralyzed and he was unable to swallow. We were there visiting once and had to leave his room for a routine clearing out of his throat because a finite amount of food had been aspirated. Outside his room the sound was horrible. I am not a medical person and hope that maybe Deb or Sandra could check in and describe the pope's condition. If I understand GMA's report correctly this morning the pope does not have a living will.

[Logan]

Pam, the report I heard about the pope was that the tube was in his nose. I think I was watching Fox News at the time. That poor man has been through a lot, hasn't he?

LizzieLou, that is a horrible experience you had with your grandfather. I know that it must haunt you to this day. :( I am glad that you and your dad were able to be there with him, though. That had to bring some sense of comfort to him.

[Pam]

Logan, I didn't mean to say mouth, I meant nose as opposed to being inserted into the stomach. My FIL's was also in his nose. The thing that needs clearing up in my mind is how all of this is working out, with a tube in his nose and the one in his throat to enable him to breathe. It sounds to me like a lot of tubes in very little space. I am showing my medical ignorance I know.

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by tortuga55
I heard the husband is going to have her obtopsied when she dies to quote "prove to the media how saverly brain damaged she was." She is not dead yet and he talks as if she is. When my grandfater died it took weeks to talk as if he was really gone. Why does he feel he has to prove that his decision to kill her was the right one. If he believes he is right why prove it to everyone. Maybe he wants to prove he was right to himself?

Tortuga, I'm sorry to hear about your grandfather, but was he in such a state as Terri, for fifteen years? Michael had seven years of fighting to rehabilitate her (and ultimatly finding out there is no chance of recovery) until it was decided to remove the feeding tube for the first time.

As for the parents, they were all too happy to want a piece of her money when Michael followed through with a lawsuit on her behalf, and had a fit when it all goes to Terri's care and her choice.

Since I don't have a daughter/son, I'll use another relative as an example. If my relative would be in a state such as Terri, finding out her husband fought for seven years for rehabilitation and various doctor consults and finding them all the same, I would at least have the decency to let the person who knows her more than I do make that ultimate decision. I would NOT be blindly seeing something that doesn't happen consistently as "her reacting to me" as Terri's parents have. IMWO I feel they are being selfish as to want her like that this whole time.

I give props to Michael for requesting the autopsy and putting up with slanderous BS from people who aren't involved in the case, though I feel no matter what the outcome will be some people will twist it around to their own goals.

As for Jesse, he's just another political figure wanting to pop his two cents worth and fifteen minutes of fame into this case that should have NEVER gone to the FL Supreme Court.

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Buddy Blaze Lover
Did anyone see that talk by that lady who had something like the same thing that Terri has, and came out of it?? There IS hope, if people will just give her a chance!!:(

Who are you talking about here?

Thanks :)

Edit: Did some lookying

IF you are talking about Kate Adamson... then:

1. TS is missing the important parts of her brain whereas KA is not. Don't compare TS today to KA at 5 years.

2. The timeline of KA's ordeal states 70 days before her feeding tube was removed for the first time when her digestive system failed (and reinserted 9 days afterwards when she could finally eliminate waste again). Well at 70 days, everyone agrees that MS was aggressively helping TS in any way he could, sparing no expense. Did KA continue in her paralytic state for 4 years? Did KA persist without improvement for as long as MS gave TS agressive help? He helped her for a LONG TIME (seven years at least).

3. You need to compare and contrast a brain stem stroke (KA) with heart attack and oxygen deprivation (TS).


In that same state a little girl was RAPED AND MURDERED by a sick subhuman being that should have been in jail instead of out stalking little children.

It is sad that people are more worried about Terri instead of what that sick monster did to that child... :( Hopefully he'll be the prisons butt boy till the day he dies.

[tatsxxx11]

Pam, feeding via an NG tube, or naso gastric tube, was the common way of administering supplemental feedings prior to the more commonly used percutaneous feeding tube. (Surgically implanted through the abdomen into the stomach, as with Terri Schiavo) A naso gastric tube is a flexible, plastic tube, very small in diameter, not more than perhaps 1/4". With the patient fully awake, it is passed through the nose, down the throat, passing down the esophagus into the stomach. It does not interfere with the patient's ability to breath or speak, whatsoever. A breathing tube (ET or endotracheal tube) is inserted into the trachea (not the esophagus, which leads to the GI tract) via the nose, mouth or via a small incision in the neck. The NG tube is commonly used to drain or "pump" the stomach, as in overdoses, keep it empty after surgery, to keep a patient from vomiting orally as well as for administering nutrition for shorter, limited periods of time.

[RICHARD]

wow, what a passionate thread.....

As in the political threads we had moving about last year, there are two very different and opposing sides to this story.

I think you all deserve a HUGE pat on the back for keeping the topic moving and putting down your thoughts.

After some thought about this woman's plight I am still torn between the two sides.

IF MS truly cared about his wife, he would give her parents custody and go on with his life.

YET is it fair to keep a person in a state where there is no 'quality of life'????

I tend to lean in this direction..not to cruelly starve a person to death, but to give them a way out of this life that is dignified and peaceful.

-----------------------------------

If you have a thought about the issue I'll challenge you all to go to an extended care hospital, hospice or ICU and look at some of the patients there.

My bias holds true becuase of all the times I have passed a patient's room just to see, in real life, what the result of a terminal illness, traumatic head wound or some kind of incident where the higher brain functions of an individual are compromised.

It's not a pretty sight.


I personally would not want to be a burden to my family, friends or the caregivers assigned to keep me fed, clean and alive.

Life is living.

Terri Schiavo is alive, but is she living the way she dreamt of before she was incapacitated???

It's a tough question with no right answers...

Sometimes us mere humans have to play god.

[carole]

Even though there are much more horrible things like the crime mentioned about the little girl to discuss, I think this is a healthy discussion going on here , which has prompted many to think about making a living will, or to make their wishes known to members of their family, so I can only see this as a positive thread, and I don't see any reason why we should not be spending time here doing just that.

Whether Terri's situation is worse or better than this poor wee girl really is not the discussion going on here, I certainly see no harm in talking about it., it doesn't make Terri less important,because a crime has not been committed IMO.

There was a recent Tv programme which I missed, but was told about , this concerned a NZ woman who clearly had a similar situation to Terri's and did come out of it, I do not know all the details, but she is obviously campaigning for Terri to beable to Live, through her own personal experience, she also stated that there was pain for her, so we do have to wonder just how much these doctors know when they say Terri is in no pain.

[Luvin Labs]

But the other girl's ( Kate Adamson?) situation is different...

KA has her brain, terri's is almost gone

when KA was taken off the feeding tube, she began responding on her own, terri's responses are for her kidneys to fail

two to three weeks after reinsertion of KA's tube, her doctors evaluated her and noticed she was aware, blinking, with terri she's been in that state for years, doctors state she 'responds' inconsistently, what would have gotten a reaction 10 minutes ago they cannot repeat that action again.

KA was in that state for a short time, terri's been in that state for over ten years

three months after KA's reinsertion of her feeding tube, she can talk with her doctors, terri's had hers removed three times and reinserted twice, with NO reaction from her

both their cases are different.

Edit: was looking for the NZ woman's name but found a male here's the site:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3225741a11,00.html

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by carole
Whether Terri's situation is worse or better than this poor wee girl really is not the discussion going on here, I certainly see no harm in talking about it., it doesn't make Terri less important,because a crime has not been committed IMO.
Well put, Carole. I was thinking the same thing only having a harder time putting my thoughts into words.

[tortuga55]

People who abanden there pets to starve to death think they are better of dead (although in a meaner way), and they get thrown in jail. Why is it ok to starve a person to death. If he is so adement about her not wanting to live why not move her to a state where you can give fatally ill people leathal injections? It would still be wrong but less painful and a whole lot faster.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by tortuga55
If he is so adement about her not wanting to live why not move her to a state where you can give fatally ill people leathal injections? There is no such place. Euthanasia is illegal in all 50 states.

[tatsxxx11]

For now at least, assisted suicide is legal in Oregon. Oregon voters have twice passed a "Right's challenge to the law. The Supreme Court of the U.S. has now agreed to hear the case, following John Ashcroft's/Bush administration's challenge to the law.

Over the past 6 years, 171 people in Oregon have legally obtained lethal doses of medication from drs., following review of their conditions, to terminate their lives in light of terminal illness.



Oregon's right to die law (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-022205scotus_lat,1,4268194.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)

[moosmom]

I personally would not want to be a burden to my family, friends or the caregivers assigned to keep me fed, clean and alive.

Life is living.

Terri Schiavo is alive, but is she living the way she dreamt of before she was incapacitated???

It's a tough question with no right answers...

Sometimes us mere humans have to play god.

RICHARD,

You said it PERFECTLY!!!!!

[jennifert9]

She passed away today....I'm glad it's over. I couldn't watch her suffer everyday on television....

[aly]

Rest in Peace, dear Terri. My prayers are with your family :(

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by jennifert9
She passed away today....I'm glad it's over. I couldn't watch her suffer everyday on television....

:(

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20050331/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_91

[momoffuzzyfaces]

So sad that her husband couldn't be merciful and let her parents be with her when she died. I'm sure Terri never told him to keep them away!

His girl friend has been promoted to fiancee now (at least on CNN). Yea, his girl friend cried when she heard Terri was gone. Now she can plan her wedding!!! Couldn't they wait until after the funeral at least?

Rest in peace Terri. I bet they have a big party for you in Heaven with plenty to eat and drink.

[tortuga55]

After all the things he has done to her and her family he dares keep them away in her last moments. It shows his true caracter once agian. Keep her issolated and away from the people who love her. He made shure that the last person she see's is the one that killed her.

[carole]

Rest in Peace Terri.

[Luvin Labs]

If someone set up such a strong smear campaign as terri's parents did to michael, I'd sure as heck not let them see her either.

The last person she saw was the one who KNEW what HER wishes were, and that was to NOT live like that.

Fifteen years is too long to hold onto a mere shell with no cognitive functions.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7306432/site/newsweek/

(from page one of that link)
"In the early years of her condition, Michael and the Schindlers got along harmoniously, even living together in a house on the Gulf Coast for a while. They ensured that Terri received all variety of therapies, including physical, occupational and recreational. When those didn't work, Michael flew her out to California, where a doctor implanted platinum electrodes into her brain as part of an experimental procedure that ultimately failed. Back in Florida, Michael enlisted family members to record audiotapes of their voices, which he played for Terri on a Walkman. He was fastidious about Terri's appearance, spraying her with Picasso perfume and outfitting her in stirrup pants and matching tops from The Limited. At one Florida nursing home, he was so demanding that administrators sought a restraining order against him. But Gloria Centonze, who worked there at the time (and by coincidence later married into the family of Michael's future girlfriend), recalls a frequent comment among the nurses: "He may be a bastard, but if I was sick like that, I wish he was my husband." To better care for Terri, Michael even enrolled in nursing school.
Eventually, however, his relationship with the Schindlers soured over money. Michael had sued the obstetrician who oversaw Terri's fertility therapy for malpractice, arguing that the doctor should have detected her potassium imbalance. A resulting settlement yielded roughly $700,000 for Terri—which was placed in a trust fund controlled by a third party for her medical care—and $300,000 for Michael. On Valentine's Day in 1993, the Schindlers met Michael in Terri's room and discussed how to spend the award money. While the parents claim that Michael refused to use it for new treatment options, Michael alleges that they simply wanted the cash for themselves. Whatever the truth is, the discussion escalated into a vitriolic fight, and both sides stormed out, never to speak again.
After that, the relationship became steadily more toxic. Michael had begun to resign himself to the prospect that Terri would never improve, according to his court testimony. When she developed a urinary-tract infection in 1994, Michael followed a doctor's recommendation not to treat it, and entered a "do not resuscitate" order (which he later rescinded after the nursing home and the Schindlers protested). The parents responded with one of many legal attempts—all of them unsuccessful—to remove Michael as Terri's guardian, accusing him of abuse, neglect and adultery (he had moved in with a girlfriend and eventually had two babies with her). More than a few observers have questioned the timing of Michael's change of heart, coming so soon after the malpractice award. But Michael has repeatedly insisted that after years of fruitless efforts to revive Terri, he had simply given up hope."


does ThAT sound like someone wanting to kill her?


(from page three of that link)
"In the course of the trial, the Schindlers also made what a court-appointed guardian for Terri deemed "horrific" and "gruesome" comments—that the family would never remove Terri's feeding tube even if she had asked them to, and that even if she developed gangrene, the family would amputate her limbs to keep her alive."

(from that link)

"A resulting settlement yielded roughly $700,000 for Terri—which was placed in a trust fund controlled by a third party for her medical care"

We'll see what the autopsy has to say, though I highly doubt that will shut up all the people who accuse Michael of doing something to Terri.

At least she's RIP now, finally

[Logan]

I'm not going to get into a contest with you, Luvin Labs, but it surprises me that you have so much more of a strong opinion than even the experts do about what was right for this woman! Really! You are a relative newcomer to this board, and we welcome you, but I have to say you certainly have come on strongly for a newcomer.

Your "insider" knowledge is just more of what we are all dealing with.... not knowing. I think most of us have tried to view this whole situation as humanely as possible with our wishes erring on the side of life when there was doubt, which their obviously was, with the lack of a physical document stating Terri Shiavo's wishes.

Your opinion about what was best for Terri obviously differs from mine, but I find it almost unbelievable that you continue to ridicule and fault people who wished for something different that you did....I am a parent and I have to tell you that if there were a glimmer of hope that my daughter could live and I could care for her, by God, I would do that. I certainly wouldn't do it to the point of being cruel, but this was a living, breathing person, who needed nutrition, but otherwise was healthy. Yes, she was disabled, but to her parents, she was everything. I understand their sentiment completely.

Logan

[wolflady]

Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
So sad that her husband couldn't be merciful and let her parents be with her when she died. I'm sure Terri never told him to keep them away!

His girl friend has been promoted to fiancee now (at least on CNN). Yea, his girl friend cried when she heard Terri was gone. Now she can plan her wedding!!! Couldn't they wait until after the funeral at least?

Rest in peace Terri. I bet they have a big party for you in Heaven with plenty to eat and drink.

This was just downright cruel of him to do IMO. He could have been the "bigger person" and let her flesh and blood family be there when she died. :mad:
Disgusting:mad:
I really don't like him after that behavior. Personally, I'd want my flesh and blood family there for me on my deathbed...:(

[Pam]

I am a parent and I have to tell you that if there were a glimmer of hope that my daughter could live and I could care for her, by God, I would do that. I certainly wouldn't do it to the point of being cruel, but this was a living, breathing person, who needed nutrition, but otherwise was healthy. Yes, she was disabled, but to her parents, she was everything. I understand their sentiment completely.

Logan

Amen Logan. I agree completely. I have to wonder about those who fault the parents. Are they parents themselves? I watched Bobby Schindler today giving a statement after Terri's death. He said that we should remember the words of Jesus who said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." As my eyes filled with tears, I thought right then and there that Bobby was a better Christian than I.

[Samantha Puppy]

Just read that Michael Schiavo will not disclose where Terri will be buried in Pennsylvania so that her parents/family cannot be there. How heartless can you be?? That is HER family. Her FAMILY. Her flesh and blood. I don't care what difference he had with them, to keep them from their own daughter's burial is revolting.

I was reserving judgement of him because all I know of him is what I've heard of him, but I can't help it anymore. No one with his heart in the right place does something like this.

http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/ap03-31-142328.asp?t=apnew&vts=33120051604

[carole]

I too have reserved my opinion's on the husband, but if this is indeed the truth , he is heartless and I can only say 'What goes around come's around" shame on him.

It has only come to me today, that I could indeed be faced with a similar but yet different situation in my own life, I can only hope that this does not be-fall my family, because I have a hereditary disease known as Huntingtons Chorea in my family, should my mother, my sister or myself succumb to this awful disease, we will eventually have trouble swallowing, we will not recognise anyone, more or less brain dead, have terrible involuntary muscle spasms, we will be in a vegetable state and this could go on for ten years or so, I can tell you now I DONOT want to be kept alive like this in hope there will be a cure, so for me Voluntary euthenasia(sp) is something I will be an avocate for, I have always believed in it, but until this case with Terri, I never gave it much thought, not realising just how real this could all become if I am the unlucky one.

My aunty mysteriously drowned herself three years ago in a freezing cold lake in Scotland, I have to wonder to this day if she thought she had the disease, and was not going to wait for all of the above to happen, she never left a suicide note, so we will never know.

One can never judge another until you have walked in those shoes I reckon.

I cannot see how anyone could feel badly towards the parents, they were only doing what they thought was right, their beliefs, how can you fault them for that., just as Logan mentioned she would do for her child if there was even a glimmer of hope.

[Luvin Labs]

I never said I had insider information :rolleyes: I feel strongly on this because I feel that the husband would know more about her wishes than her parents, as SHE chose HIM, not them. And I may be seeing things but I see a lot of people (not just on this site) that aren't looking at the facts of this case, and only of the opinions of people directly involved.

AND... I'm expressing an opinion out of all the information I've seen, just like you :)


Just read that Michael Schiavo will not disclose where Terri will be buried in Pennsylvania so that her parents/family cannot be there. How heartless can you be?? That is HER family. Her FAMILY. Her flesh and blood. I don't care what difference he had with them, to keep them from their own daughter's burial is revolting.

That is upsetting, they all need to move on and even though they did not agree they all should at least know where she is buried.


'If Mike knew they would come in peace, he would have no problem with it,'' Scott Schiavo, Michael Schiavo's brother, said during an interview at his home.

I can also understand why Michael would, since the parents did bring it higher than it really needed to go.

I feel for both sides (no matter what people assume I feel about the parents or the hubby) and hope this won't be a media circus for too long.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/1203galrpt.pdf
Page 14 is pretty interesting, and SICK IMO... It states that even if all her limbs were to be chopped off that they would still want her to 'live." And they even admitted that she is in a diagnosed PVS... !!!! Its the second full paragraph on Page 14... :eek:

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
I can also understand why Michael would, since the parents did bring it higher than it really needed to go.
Personally, I disagree. If I were the mother of a man or woman who was in a situation anywhere close to Terri's, I can honestly say that if I felt in my heart of hearts that my child's spouse were making the wrong decisions, I would fight them too. That child is my flesh and blood. And no matter to what extent I'd fight to keep that son or daughter alive, if they were to pass away I certainly wouldn't invite any media attention afterwards. I feel her parents probably feel the same way. I can't imagine they'd want something as somber as their daughter's funeral and burial to be a circus. If Michael were to relent and they did turn it into a media circus, I would lose respect for them.

(I'm not attacking you, Luvin Labs. As you said, you have every right to your opinion on the matter as do the rest of us. You just said something I don't agree with and I wanted to present my side/views on the issue.)

[Luvin Labs]

Personally, I disagree. If I were the mother of a man or woman who was in a situation anywhere close to Terri's, I can honestly say that if I felt in my heart of hearts that my child's spouse were making the wrong decisions, I would fight them too. That child is my flesh and blood. And no matter to what extent I'd fight to keep that son or daughter alive, if they were to pass away I certainly wouldn't invite any media attention afterwards. I feel her parents probably feel the same way. I can't imagine they'd want something as somber as their daughter's funeral and burial to be a circus. If Michael were to relent and they did turn it into a media circus, I would lose respect for them.

i agree... I really hope that MS will change his mind, I see his reason for concern but he should let them be there for the funeral... as people said they are her flesh and blood... and if it did turn into a circus then my respect for them would also be dwindling if not gone...


(I'm not attacking you, Luvin Labs. As you said, you have every right to your opinion on the matter as do the rest of us. You just said something I don't agree with and I wanted to present my side/views on the issue.)

no sweat, SP, and I'm not attacking either....

as i said before if we all agreed on everything it'd be a boring world, I M O :)

Have a Happy Puppy! :)

[tortuga55]

Go to http://www.terrisfight.org/index2.html and you will see exactly what her so called husband is doing with the money, that was intended to pay for medical bills. It is at the bottom of the page but the entire page is interesting. He (Terris husband) has not even planed her funeral and is already planing his next wifes wedding. I am going to put in my will that if my husband starts dateing another woman then I am to file for divorce. I would want my parents to be my gardians they would never leave me or move on to another.

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by tortuga55
Go to http://www.terrisfight.org/index2.html and you will see exactly what her so called husband is doing with the money, that was intended to pay for medical bills. It is at the bottom of the page but the entire page is interesting.

That's not really a unbiased site to get facts from (i.e. that's a biased site)

Where bouts is it? I'm looking at the bottom and do not see it... still looking

Edit: n/m found it.

Edit again: Where is their source for that spending information? Thanks :)

[Samantha Puppy]

Actually, that website is biased towards her parents because it's their website for her.

I find that http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html is completely non-biased; it favors neither Michael, nor her parents. When looking for legal, medical or timeline information on this case, that is the site I reference.

[lbaker]

It's over. It's done. Let us not get into the after-effects/affects between us. We already have established that we have VERY differing opinions on the whole issue. I WOULD HATE TO HAVE TO CONTINUE THIS VERY SAD AND DIVISIVE SITUATION BETWEEN US. Enough please. Let's have more respect for each other.

[Samantha Puppy]

Did I miss something? I thought that as controversial as this topic is those who have taken part in this discussion have kept it extremely benign and respectful.

[lbaker]

Indeed we have, and I would like it to continue that way. But I do think that some of the after the fact comments have been a bit controversial, as is the whole situation. Sorry, perhaps I should have just kept quiet :(

[carole]

Ibaker I think you can see there might be potential for this thread to enter dangerous waters, but really I think this has been a very informative and emotional thread which has been handled very maturely on the whole by all of our wonderful caring PT members, would you not agree?

Don't be afraid to speak your concerns, after all that is what it is all about here, I merely see you as being just that, a tad concerned incase the thread gets out of hand,overall it is a healthy discussion and I think it will continue to be so hopefully.:)

[sirrahbed]

My views differ as well since I wanted very much for Terri's will to be respected - although it could never be truly known. The husband has made it very easy to dislike and disbelieve him. God only knows.

Her death came as a relief and I do not believe she was "murdered". Feeding tubes are removed every day and death is not pleasant to watch - but it is something we all will face. My feeling is that medical breakthroughs have greatly prolonged life - but sometimes border on playing God. I am an RN and have spent time in nursing homes and see many sad souls who might not be lingering if their lives had simply progressed naturally.

This thread has been very thought provoking - and we all come to the issue with our own backgrounds and reasons - let me explain mine....

I recently lost my mom. My dad was so upset and unable to make rational decisons about her care. He refused to sign the DNR until many conversations that we had. She was 83, advanced Alzheimers, suffered two strokes and had a severe infection in her hip. She had been dying for many, many months but dad had them try everything possible to keep her with him. I traveled to Texas and sat with her alone as she died. Dad could not be there.

I myself have renal failure and my wish is NOT to be kept alive or to seek life-extending measures when that time comes and so have put my desires into my Living Will.

So, when I have been watching the coverage - I can easily see how this could be ME with hubby wanting to follow my wishes and parents who cannot let go. Of course there are few other similarities, but my point is that our personal circumstances affect the way we have passionately followed the Schiavo case. I seldom followed the case while thinking of myself as the mother but when I did, it was almost too painful to think about - and this may be the reason for the tremendous difference in viewpoints, whether from our personal life circumstance and experiences, or from the eyes we view it. Am I making sense??

I don't think there is any evil or hatefulness on either side - but it has made all of us think about matters of death...

Plus, this case has political undertones and agendas that are disturbing. What exactly - will become more clear in the future.

[LKPike]

started with an eating disorder, ended with an eating disorder I don't care to say that I've been between anorexia and bulimia for 8 years, just because I live with it doesnt mean want to end my life with it, and I'm sure Terri would agree.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by tortuga55
I am going to put in my will that if my husband starts dateing another woman then I am to file for divorce. I would want my parents to be my gardians they would never leave me or move on to another.


At least in the US...one's will does not come into play until AFTER one has died. So, putting such language into your will that you want to divorce your husband after you have died is come what "complicating". :D The law here in the US makes death one of the ways a marriage ends, and it is automatic.

Also, the law in the US doesn't really support directives such as 'if my husband should marry....then I want to do this...' in wills, living wills, etc. Just some information for when you do your estate planning.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I have told my husband the greatest compliment he could pay me, should I die before him, is to remarry quickly. That marriage was a good thing. If I should be in a long term coma or mentally gone because of dementia or the like...I would WANT him to have female companionship.

Life is for the living....and it is very short. I would not want him to be lonely. I trust he could find ways to honor my memory and still find some pleasure in life.


I must say I find this to be 100% 'proof' of a loving, committed marriage. To want your spouse, or your parent, or your child, or your pet to sit around and watch you fade away is a bit morbid for my tastes. How could you NOT want your loving partner to go on and experience happiness, life, joy, etc?

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by LKPike
started with an eating disorder, ended with an eating disorder I don't care to say that I've been between anorexia and bulimia for 8 years, just because I live with it doesnt mean want to end my life with it, and I'm sure Terri would agree.


There is a certain irony to the situation, IMO. I wonder, I wonder...if we got ahold of people with anorexia/bulimia at the early age/stage, and did some 'in your face' imagery with what these debilitating diseases do, would we be more sucessful in treating them? We do it with beginning smokers- citing the risks of lung cancer, emphyzema (sic), mouth cancer. We do it with drinkers- liver cancer, comes to mind. We should do it with these diseases too. These diseases rob young women (primarily) of many, many things in life. I don't think we do enough to educate them on the horrific consequences of the disease.

[RICHARD]

for the record..

TS did not starve to death.

After listening to a Dr. on a talk show yesterday I realized that the media, in their effort to sensationalize the story, made it sound that TS would wither away to nothing.

The human body can live without FOOD for a long while-what is needed is WATER to keep a person alive.

She passed from dehydration-not the starvation that everyone
has reported and commented on.

Getting caught up in the passion of the topic made me forget my basic biology/physiology lessons. I guess i can use that as an excuse-the media????

I guess the facts don't matter anymore.

morons.



:(

[joycenalex]

the ny times editorial has it true on. rest in peace theresa. amen