More on Ice Princess Lizzie

[sirrahbed]

:( Lizzie is starting to act like she is wild. I have written before about her...Now she is even biting. I clipped her nails last night and as usual she screamed and scratched me. So, I wrapped her in a towel burrito and she chomped into my hand:( OOUCH!! She also bit me a few days ago when I tried to pet her!! I saw it coming so she just barely caught and bit the ends of my fingers - I approached her while she was sleeping on top of the couch - usually that is the only time I can touch her - when she is sleepy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/sirrahbed/beautiful.jpg
She stares at me alot...like this picture - she watches me and her eyes are so gorgeous but they also are distant and scary don't you think?? Neither hubby or I can pet her without her shrinking away from our touch. She will NOT approach for attention - just stares at us.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/sirrahbed/more%20kitties%202005/lizball.jpg
I laughed at her for growling when she had this toy - but this look she has here is also what she gives to us. I had hoped the spay might help but that was three weeks ago and she seems worse. When we feed the kitties - she stands back and watches. It is that watching that is so odd...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/sirrahbed/more%20kitties%202005/lizziesack.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v170/sirrahbed/more%20kitties%202005/suckieliz.jpg
To me, she looks fearful and not at all trusting:( She has also turned on mama cat Emily - growling at her if she tries to groom her:( Robbie still goes and cuddles with Emily but no more Lizzie. She growls quite often now.
Her health seems perfect - as far as eating, drinking and playing with Robbie. She also attacks her toys as always and plays with them.
Someone had suggested separating her and seeing if that would help. I have her set up in our largest bathroom today with her favorite bed and toys, litterpan, food, water.
I thought I would go in alone several times aday and spend time with her just sitting and talking to her like a feral kitty. She acts feral!!
I am so sad about her:( Now, Robbie is upset and will not leave the doorway where she is. There is no crack under the door - but he is laying there quietly facing the door.
I don't know what I should do. This biting us is new in the past few weeks. She doesn't just nip eaither - it is an angry bite and she has pierced the web of my hand between thumb and index finger. (I am keeping it clean, etc. It looks fine) - just hurts but mostly it hurts my insides that she did this:( I don't care about the *bite*.
Can anyone give me more suggestions?? It seems our happy family is not happy anymore. It really is not new - I just kept thinking she would warm up and love us. I actually feel afraid of her.:rolleyes:

[jazzcat]

Oh Debbie I'm sorry. I had hoped the spay would help and it looked like it was with those lap pictures a week or so ago. Maybe some Feliway would help settle her a little. Other than that I don't know. Hopefully others can offer some helpful advice.

Hang in there, she may just be a tough cookie to crack.

[NoahsMommy]

I'm sorry your having a setback with Lizzie girl. :(

What about talking to a behavioralist? Everything I've heard about them is really good.

Do you think that Lizzie could be feeling sick at all? Was Lizzie a feral baby? Are she and Robbie littermates? Is this new for her?

Our kitty, Hermie is our feral cat. We cannot approach her without her seeing us. I always greet her before I touch her, otherwise, she'll run away. I also cannot walk past her quickly or without her knowing where I'm going, she'll run and hide.

She does a significant amount of growling and acting wild when she plays. She too, will only come to us for attention if we are in bed - safe?

I hope things get better. I wish I had something to offer you, I know this must be so hard for you. All you want to give is your love and its so hard when they are fearful. :(

Hugs to you.

[catmandu]

You dont,sadly,know what Lizzie,has been through,in her life,taht makes her so edgy.just keep,on loving her,and I think,that you will break through.Scratchy,the Stray,taht I am keeping alive,still tkes swipes,at me,and I have been,his friend,for over a year,now!

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy
What about talking to a behavioralist? Everything I've heard about them is really good.

Do you think that Lizzie could be feeling sick at all? Was Lizzie a feral baby? Are she and Robbie littermates? Is this new for her?


I talked to my vet and techs and they have never heard of a "behavioralist" - my vet actually chuckled when I asked.:rolleyes: Small town I guess...and this is Ohio...

She does not seem sick at all and this behavior is not really new - just seems worse and (frustrating) as I kept thinking the spay would help and ......patience. We have had her for four months now and she is six months old. She and Robbie are littermates, yes, and Robbie is a total opposite. He is like a sweet puppy dog, loves attention and always seeking it and lovey-dovey. He loves to be picked up and snuggled anytime.

Oh yes and about attention in bed....during the night when I am sleeping - I have awakened several times to find her at my face and sniffing. I pretend to be asleep and afraid to move most times - though a couple times I reached out and petted her several times and she stayed briefly and then ran off.
I know - probably just "how she is" but it is like having a stranger in the house.:(

She *will* get on the bed with us - but stays at the foot and watches us.

Gary: she has had a pampered life - was raised with Robbie at Kim's home - born right there at her home of a very sweet mamacat and then came right to us.

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

I am so sorry that sweet Lizzie is having behavior problems. I really have no idea how you can help her. Maybe your vet can give you some advize?? Good luck with your Maya-look-a-like!!

[smokey the elder]

My former foster Cinnamon was very bitey at 6 months old. I had to just be patient with her, and give her "time out" if she bit. By this past New Year's she was a year and a half old and had way mellowed out, and turned into a mush and was finally adoptable.

You may want to handle Lizzie with heavy gloves at first; it sounds like she may need to be retrained, for whatever reason.

Good luck! Lizzie, stop biting your meowmie!

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by smokey the elder

You may want to handle Lizzie with heavy gloves at first; it sounds like she may need to be retrained, for whatever reason.

Good luck! Lizzie, stop biting your meowmie!

Thanks!! Well, she is isolated to the bathroom now - like I would a new kitty and I am planning to spend time in there and TRY to retrain her as if she was a newcomer:rolleyes: I hope that works!! I was thinking of just sitting in there with her and talking or reading. I don't want to try to pick her up yet (OOUCH!!) but maybe I WILL have to use gloves??

I feel awful right now because she is howling and Robbie is so upset:(

[jenluckenbach]

I read an article that brought up the theory that the FATHER's genes may help make a cat easy to tame/hard to tame. And a litter of kittens CAN have multiple fathers. If this is the case, it could just be in her genes. (and she IS after all, a calico and they have minds of their own)


It is highly possible that she is overly sensitive and gets overstimulated easily. She may well grow out of this, but teaching (or I guess I really should say LEARNING) how to see the signs of an attack and stopping BEFORE she bites is key.

An example......a cat that gets overstimulated to the point of biting after 5 strokes........ you stroke the cat 4 times and STOP. Watch for the signs of attack....ears going back, tail twitching....you have to know Lizzie's signs.....Then try to strech the petting sessions out. Bonnie was a biter, but we rarely push her to that point now. (although the nail clip usually does it)

Lizzie is GORGEOUS! And sometimes you just need a WHOLE lot of patience.

[emily_the_spoiled]

I have no advice about the fearful behavior, but I can tell you that Tanner was a bad "biter" from about 6-8 months. It took almost a year and half before he noticably mellowed out. Even now he still goes through stages. Every once in awhile I still use gloves to handle him. I just chaulk it up to him being him...

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by jenluckenbach
I read an article that brought up the theory that the FATHER's genes may help make a cat easy to tame/hard to tame.
Yes, I read about that too. Maybe this is just how she is:( Do you think I am doing right by isolating her??? Like, thinking time away from Robbie might make her less dependant on him? I haven't been in with her yet - a little afraid of her right now.

[christa]

DEBBIE!!! Lizzie is Josie made over!!! Seriously girl, don't worry about it!

When I read your first post, I was about to fall over because she sounds exactly like Josie acted after we got her spayed! EXACTLY!!!

Josie is almost a year and a half and is just now coming to us to be held! It has been shocking but I'm glad that she is FINALLY warming up to us!

Josie did the whole biting thing . . . stared a hole in me all the time . . . and yes, there were times that I felt scared of her. Hubby used to always laugh because he said it was as though she were "picking" on me . . . and that's exactly what it felt like!

In my opinion, I don't think you should separate her. I really think that this is just going to be her personality. If she's as much like Josie as she seems to be, she'll snap out of it in a few months (fingers crossed)

If you need to talk anymore, PM me!!! Honey, I've been through this! I know how bad you feel, but there's really nothing that you can do about it! Just gotta wait it out!

Hang in there ;)

[Lacey]

I saw a suggestion here about Feliway. You might also want to consider Rescue Remedy. A few drops in her water for a few days may help to mellow her out. Goodness knows it helped with Mowg.

Beyond that, stick with resocializing. No touchies if you think there's going to be biting. Just watch her body language and do your best to guess at what she's ready for. If you think she's ready for some petting, give it a shot. Maybe try petting her with a back scratcher first so those hands are out of teeth range. If you can get her set up in a cage, try letting her watch you love on the other kitties, and maybe that'll get her to wanting love from you.

[Logan]

Originally posted by jenluckenbach
I read an article that brought up the theory that the FATHER's genes may help make a cat easy to tame/hard to tame. And a litter of kittens CAN have multiple fathers. If this is the case, it could just be in her genes. (and she IS after all, a calico and they have minds of their own)


It is highly possible that she is overly sensitive and gets overstimulated easily. She may well grow out of this, but teaching (or I guess I really should say LEARNING) how to see the signs of an attack and stopping BEFORE she bites is key.

An example......a cat that gets overstimulated to the point of biting after 5 strokes........ you stroke the cat 4 times and STOP. Watch for the signs of attack....ears going back, tail twitching....you have to know Lizzie's signs.....Then try to strech the petting sessions out. Bonnie was a biter, but we rarely push her to that point now. (although the nail clip usually does it)

Lizzie is GORGEOUS! And sometimes you just need a WHOLE lot of patience.

I have two, just like that. Mimi has gotten worse about this habit in her old age (15). :(

Debbie, her eyes look "wild" in all of those pictures. Perhaps this is a phase for her. I hope that's all it is. Wish I had some good advice, but I have none and I have the scars to prove it, for sure. :(

[NoahsMommy]

Debbie,

I want to tell you, that when I figured out the Hermione is just "one of those cats", it helped me a lot. I couldn't understand how I could raise five loving cats (and then three more after her) and have her as a tiny bitty kitten only to have her be terrified of people, even us!

Its horribly saddening. I completely understand.

That's wierd they haven't heard of a behavioralist. Hmmm...what about doing a search online or contacting your local humane society?

[NKBurlington]

I'm so sorry to hear this about Lizzie. She looks sooo cute as if she is smiling, in that first photo.

I have no advice to give, just hugs and I'm an optimist when it comes to cats so I would take Christa's post to heart. Maybe it will just take some time.

Has she attacked the other cats or hurt them in any way? If so, that would be cause for alarm. If not, maybe all she needs is time.

This may sound crazy, but maybe it's the fuzzy ball toy. Hear me out.

My Sammie cat LOVES those toys, but he too growls and hisses when he plays with it and become very possesive of it. He would not let the other kitties play with it. We decided it would be best to take it away from him. After that, he was fine. You may want to consider a trial period without that toy. Who knows. . . .

[NoahsMommy]

Debbie,

I wanted to add...it does get better...just slowly.

Hermie will come out and see visitors after a few hours and if we're just being calm.

Did I ever tell you about Hermie's vaccine story? Or her spay?

Well! It looked like I had a suicide attempt the first time I tried to get her in her carrier! She sliced right through my wrist and promptly hid UNDER the dresser the rest of the day. The second time, David tricked her into the bathroom and got her in her carrier.

Last month, her shots were overdue, so I had my vet and my vet tech friend come over to give her vaccines. Um..that was a huge drama!! We got her into the bathroom and let her calm down for a while. When my vet went to go in, Hermie escaped (I KNEW it was going to happen!). We had to chase her around the apartment and it really, really scared her. She was so terrified when she saw there was nowhere for her to hide, she curled up in a ball and shook. :( :( :( I was horrified, but she had to get vaccinated. Katy was able to get her and they took her in the bathroom for her shots. She SCREECHED at the top of her little lungs.

Luckily, she is still slowly coming around. The other night I was able to pick her up and move her to a different spot on our bed. That's HUGE!!

I just want you to know that if Lizzie is just one of these kitters, its extra rewarding when little things happen. :)

Hugs to you. :)

P.S. Hermie wasn't like this as a kitten. That's why this was so wierd and sad to me. I wondered if it was something we did...but I don't know what.

[Laura's Babies]

As hard as it would be with that little beautiful girl.... I would just INGORE her completely, not even looking into her direction or speaking to her and act like she is just not there.. I would try that and see what happens for a few days.. They CAN'T stand to be ignored.. It is worth a try?

[jenluckenbach]

Originally posted by Laura's Babies
As hard as it would be with that little beautiful girl.... I would just INGORE her completely, not even looking into her direction or speaking to her and act like she is just not there..They CAN'T stand to be ignored.. It is worth a try?

This exact approach worked with Fern. She wasn't a biting cat, but shy to the extreme. But she hated to be ignored.

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

This is similar to the issues I had (and still have) with Ally. Bottom line - she's very territorial and simply does not want to share her mommy with Connor.

I don't want to step on any feet (paws??) here, and I totally respect your religeous beliefs, but I eventually consulted a cat "communicator" (referred by another PT member), who gave me some insight into Ally's personality and what was causing her to act the way she does. It helped me deal with it, and I would be happy to share some info with you if you are interested.

[lizzielou742]

Oh Debbie, what you are describing is exactly the way Sophie was. She used to bite us pretty hard, and her sharp little teeth hurt! She was such a wild child, wouldn't let anyone pick her up or pet her without biting and scratching. But we just kept trying, and kept pouring on the love in those sleepy times when she would actually let us touch her, and she's now 11 months old and like a changed cat. She still doesn't like strangers touching her, and will still "play bite" us occasionally (ok, probably every day, but it's just a play bite and doesn't hurt), but she's SOOO much better. She will come up to us and snuggle and purr. She will never be as lovable as Tito (well, who is??) but she's her own perfect little sweetheart now. We just had to accept that she just didn't want to be picked up and loved on as much as her brother, and she finally got used to us touching her, and things calmed down. She actually cuddled up against my head on my pillow this morning and purred - something that would have been unheard of for her as little as three months ago. It helps a lot that as they get older they lose more and more of that wild kitten energy. She's probably just bouncing off the walls inside with energy and has to let it out somehow. I'd let her out to play (and wrestle) with the other cats. Maybe they will bite her back and in their own way teach her not to bite.

((hugs)) to you and hope you feel better soon!

Liz

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Ally Cat's Mommy
This is similar to the issues I had (and still have) with Ally. Bottom line - she's very territorial and simply does not want to share her mommy with Connor.

I don't want to step on any feet (paws??) here, and I totally respect your religeous beliefs, but I eventually consulted a cat "communicator" (referred by another PT member), who gave me some insight into Ally's personality and what was causing her to act the way she does. It helped me deal with it, and I would be happy to share some info with you if you are interested.

:D Yes, I think "communicator" sounds a bit odd but who knows?? I know some people are VERY good at understanding animals and would know more than I do for sure!! According to my vet and tech though - there is no behaviorist they know about.

Thanks for the help and support, Julie. It may be territorial and it sure does not feel good!! I KNOW you understand that. (((HUGS)))

[Jayna78]

You see, Leila was sweet as could be when we met her in late April 2003, when she was up for adoption and 5 months old. We adopted her and brought her home, and then we figured out that she has two personalities - the sweet cuddly side and the devil side. She has always been that way, and it seems like that's just how she is. Leila, by the way, is a calico tabby (probably oriental shorthair of some kind) mix, and they say calicos can be a bit mean (that's putting it nicely, I think).

She goes through phases where she's all sweetness and light, unless we pet her when she doesn't want it or if we trim her claws (which is a once every couple of weeks occurrence for all of our kitties - last night was the night and it was a hoot (NOT!) as usual).

She bites us even when we think she's comfy on either of our laps and loving the attention and petting we give her. She is the bully of our four cats - she came in second, so she really scares Leo and Claudia if she wants to (sometimes she sleeps with them and plays with them calmly, and other times, she just attacks them for no reason), and probably scares Bailey when they're chasing and wrestling sometimes too, but he's the only one with "seniority" over her, so he can smack her down if needed. If she really is out of line with Leo or Claudia, we separate her from the others for a while until she calms down.

Anyway, I'm not sure if your Lizzie is just going through a phase or whatever, but she sounds a lot like our Leila, who we've come to love and accept for the crazy wild thing she is. She was on the streets alone, from what I gather, in the first few months of her life, and she's thin, acrobatic and scrappy, and probably just tough from that time. Who knows? Her father may have been an evil dude too! The fact that she snuggles with us at all (of course on her terms!) or sleeps with us practically every night is encouraging.

Good luck with your little wild child. We feel your pain! :) We both have the bite marks to prove it. :)

[catnapper]

Oh wow Debbie. I had no idea it was this bad. You sound utterly devastated and frustrated. I have no ideas to contribute... just lots of {{{HUGS}}} for you. You've gotten some great advice here and between all these wonderful PTers I am certain that you'll be able to break through to Lizzie and find her inner lap cat.

[sirrahbed]

I spent about a half hour in the bathroom with Lizzie. Well she is like a different cat. I guess she was so lonesome that even *I* was a good visitor. I sat on the floor with her and she climbed all over me, even headbutting me and licking my face:eek: After a few minutes of this, I got her playing and she played hard quite awhile, then very sleepy and wanted to get in her bed and suck on the sides like usual but she wanted my hand in there with her, so I stroked her cheek until she was asleep.

That nap lasted about 15 minutes and she is hollering again. I will try to keep it up at least a day but knowing me, I will cave....unless we move her to a back bedroom that is in the other side of the house. I don't really *want* to isolate her but being without Robbie and alone sure made her happy for a person to come in with her.

I realize that she may just be an aloof cat and that is fine. I can accept that! But what I won't take is her biting!! If I have to clip her nails in hunting gloves then I will. I will be more careful about petting her because I usually read her signals and I probably just missed them when she bit me a few days ago. I will keep her away from Misha for awhile though. Misha is very gentle with her but only a baby and might make Lizzie mad!! I never leave Misha alone though for even seconds and keep my eyes on her most every moment.

I think it hurt my feelings that she bit so hard while I was clipping her naisl and then the scary looks and avoidance behavior. I should be used to that though.

Several of you did not think isolation was a good idea so I won't do that for long. I will also try the ignore treatment because I am usually trying hard to get her to play or at least come.near :rolleyes:
Thanks everyone.

[jenluckenbach]

Just do whatever WORKS! If isolation works, do it. If not, try something else. All cats are different and it will be trial and error.

But, if she bites, make it VERY obvious (and loud) that it hurt. That is how other kittens tell their playmates that they are too rough. So yell!!! It may just do the trick.

[doolittleky]

Have you ever heard of Pam Johnson Bennett? she is a feline behaviorist and author of several feline behavior books. She has a message board called Think Like A Cat at ivillage. You can post your questions to her and she will give you advice. She is a really nice and very sweet person. I am shure if you post your info to her that she would be able to help you with Lizzie.

Here is the link

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ptthinkcat?redirCnt=1

Good Luck with Lizzie

Such great shots of her and such a beautiful face.

Melissa

[doolittleky]

I just remembered something Pam told me once when I first got Elvis and he was biting me. She said instead of pulling your hand away when they bite you to push it in and that will surprise them and they will release it. I don't know if this would apply to your situation or not.
Melissa

[auggie]

Debbie, my Auggie is he most lovable sweet cat, but she can’t stand having her paws touched and will bite me if I do.
Phoenix was worse that Lizzie when he was younger but mellowed out with age.
I don’t know if isolating her is the answer, although my cats will stare at me like that if I pay more attention to one of them. Are cat jealous?
I’m curious, have you noticed her reacting more aggressive after she had some catnip?
It seems to have that effect on Phoenix. How does she react towards loud noises?
Does she seem fearful?
I could always tell when Phoenix was about to attack me, so I backed off and left him alone. We now have an understanding, he allows me to pet him for a treat.
:rolleyes:

[sirrahbed]

Melissa - I am unable to go to that link - it gives me an error message.

I appreciate all the replies - especially those of you who have a similar kitty.

Lizzie does not seem fearful of noises or anything like that. She is also not agressive to the other kitties and not really to us except the biting I mentioned but I was asking for it each time - clipping her nails and not paying attention to her signals to leave her alone. Mostly it is that she stares at us and will not let us approach and doesn't come for any attention. She used to bite as a kitten when playing and we would just quickly put a stuffed toy out and she would bite that instead.

I have learned that even sweet Dylan will bite if I touch his paws!! - also if I touch his belly when he does not have it already exposed:rolleyes:

I am going in to sit in the bathroom with her now:( She is crying and I can't stand that.

[kimlovescats]

Deb, I was the one who suggested isolating her, but NOT from you ... just from the other cats. I thought making her your personal room mate for a while, and giving her extra one on one would help.

[shais_mom]

Oh Debbie I am so sorry to hear this. I wonder if Kloe and Lizzie are long lost sisters? If Kim and I lived closer it might be possible!
The weird thing is that with Kloe right after I posted my plea for help - she mellowed out a LOT! She will still bite on occasion, but not near like she did. And last nite she actually slept up by my head for awhile - where Kylie's spot is - Kylie slept in the chair. And Friday nite she curled right up next to me - forehead to forehead. I was afraid to move that she would claw or bite me. But all she did was throw her paw up on my cheek!
Sending you good thoughts. I know you have wear her down!!