Gracie is pushing her luck! Advice needed.

[cubby31682]

We have a fenced in back yard which is good at this point. She refuses to come when she is called now. So we leave her outside and ignore her for a few minutes then we go out to try to get her. We come back in with out her because she still refuses to come in. So again we close the door and ignore her.

She use to nip at my legs, which she has stopped doing after my husband yelled at her. I had teeth marks all over my legs from her. I didn't think about taking her back. My husband wanted to and tried to talk me into it. I told him I can't send her back I have to work with her on it. Which I did. And it hasn't been a problem since. Every now and then she trys but a very stern NO! does the trick now.

Today I took her out on her 30 foot leash, she started to try to play tug a way, I gave her a stern NO! and DROP IT! she did none of the commands I gave her. She almost pulled me of the deck. Either I had to drop the leash or be pulled off. So I dropped the leash. I had to chase her around the yard for over an hour. Then I gave up and came inside to cool down. By this time I was so mad if she would have came in I would have packed her up and taken her back to where we got her from. She has never and I mean never had me this mad before. My husband got home on his break and I sent him out to get her. She pulled him down in the snow. He grabbed the leash and brought her back inside. She has been in her cage since. I don't know what to do anymore. She had me in tears today because she wont listen to me anymore. No matter how hard I try to work with her. She listens inside very well but outside she is a different dog.

I just took her outside on the 6 foot leash which has a small handle next to her neck. I held on to that and she still tried to pull me. I let her pee then she came right back inside.

I wouldn't have a proble leaving her outside for a while, but she starts barking which gets the other dogs around us barking. Their owners come out and start screaming at thier dogs. One woman slapped her dog for barking and I don't want Gracie to bark and get all the other dogs in trouble.

We will be getting her a no bark collar soon, so she can be outside as long as she wants to be. I am also afraid that if she keeps barking out there then some one might drop something in my back yard for her to eat. I am afraid it wont be something good. I think it will require a very huge vet visit and bill.

She is now out of her cage and is trying to suck up to me. Since she got yelled at by me and sent to her cage by me. I feel bad for making her stay in her cage for an hour or two, but I am at my wit ends today.

Like I said this is the first time since I have had her that I have thought about sending her back. I hate that feeling and I don't want that feeling to come back again. If any one can give me any advice on making her mind me and my husband out side it would be truely appreciated.

Thanks....

[kt_luvs_kitties]

I dont really have any "good advice". Maybe take a class at Petsmart or something, to help her learn commands. Or take her outside and play so hard it wears her out and she is ready to come inside?
We had a dog at out vet, it was a resident dog, her name was Hannah and she NEVER wanted to come back inside. You could chase and chase and it NEVER worked.
Will she come for treats? I just dont have much advice. I am sorry she is getting you cranky, dogs:rolleyes:
I hope all works out ok, and someone can give you better advice. *HUGS*

[cubby31682]

I have tried treats, toys, car rides. Nothing works any more. She doesn't slow down outside. She can stay out there for at least 2 hours and run non stop and still isn't tired yet. She is a ball of energy outside, but once she comes in she passes out on the couch most of the time. :rolleyes:

[cali]

when she is outside and you want her to come in have you tried just marching outside grabbing her collar and forcing her to come inside, and once she is in immedietly give her a million tons of praise. all my dogs are required to come insdie when told, when they challenge that, I put on my shoes walk outside and grab the dog and bring them in, if they dont like it, too bad. they all come in now as soon as I tell them to, as they come in they are always praised, that is me. other people often have to yell at the dog to make them come in because they dont enforce it, if I hear someone yelling at a dog to come in I just call the dog from whereveer am and the dog comes in lol untill she learns the concept of come in NOW, you could maybe put a tie out that reaches inside your house and a good 12 feet or so of your yard, saves you haveing to chase her around the yard till you catch her if you can just step outside your door grab the tie and reel her in lol also start training with her outside only, take very tasty treats and a lash and teach her a solid outside recall, she does not realize that she must listen outside too, so dont work with her inside anymore just out in your yard. one more thing for a solid outside recall try running away from her, if you are just standing there why should she come? you gotta make yourself seem VERY intresting to her, call her while holding liver treats or something or her favorite toy and run away and dont look back just keep running away from her, as soon as she gets to you give her a million tons of praise and treats and play.

[cubby31682]

I would love to put her on a tie out. The rescue that I got her from will not allow them. They will take her away if they see one. They come out when ever they feel like it to check on her.

I have tried to run away from her, she just runs in the wrong direction. :rolleyes: She isn't the brightest dog in the world I swear. I have tried the treats and such. I will be working on training her out side from now on. No more mrs. nice mom. Lol. My husband's aunt (which raised Dobermans) told me she is trying to challenge me for the alpha roll. I thought I had that nipped in the butt, but I guess not. Back to training we go. I will be looking for a basic trainer again. All of the ones I have called cancel the class because there aren't enough dogs. Or they never get in touch with us or what ever.

I also can't go in the yard and grab her. She runs and runs and runs. She thinks it's a game. If you try that she jumps back and forth after you give up doing a very high pitched bark.

I will be calling the rescue to tell them the problems and see if I can get an okay for a tie out though. I think if I explain everything they just might okay it. I will find out I guess.

[aly]

I think an obedience class would be extremely beneficial in this case. Even if you already know a lot about training, nothing beats being able to discuss certain issues with your trainer in an obedience class (as long as they are qualified and good). I also think it will be good for her to get out in public with distractions and work on learning more manners.

It really sounds like she is testing her boundaries. Do you know what Nothing in Life is Free is? That would help a lot too. As well as not letting her get on the furniture, etc.

[ginagt]

What I would first of all suggest is to purchase a gentle leader.
http://www.doglikenature.com/store/viewitem?item=16001&googlead
it is a harness type thing that goes over the dogs nose and the leash hooks under the chin, they cannot pull at all because you are directing the head. It is not a muzzle at all and they can still do all their normal activities, it just puts you back in control. I would try that while you are working on training again. This way you can practice comes with a leash on her and don't have to worry about being pulled over. Remember to never yet at her if she comes to you (it's hard when you are frustrated) but come should never mean punishment. Come should always equal praise and cookies (while you are relearning it). Also while you are retraining her I would never let her outside without a leash on. When we learned come in puppy class we were told to never say come unless we were willing to back it up. Meaning if you say come and the dog does not come then you must go get them and bring them to you. But since you can't do this (due to the running) don't say come at all, just put her on a leash to do her business and that's it. Does she like to play ball? Will she bring it back to you? If so that is a perfect training opptunity, when she is on her way back to you with the ball say "come" and when she gets to you have a party and give a treat. Oh, one more thing I remembered, when she does get to the point that you can let her off leash in the yard and she comes, don't always make come mean time to go inside. In other words you are out in the yard with her she is playing you say come, she comes over to you, you have a party and then she is allowed to go and play some more. Part of the issues you might be having is come means play time outside is over. So by calling her to you and just because and then letting her go play again, you are telling her come doesn't always mean playtime is over.
I hope this helps.
Gina

[tatsxxx11]

Many have already given you excellent advice. Did you get Gracie from a Dobie rescue group? The rescue group I work with is available at anytime, to help the adopting family deal with beahavioral issues, give advice etc. You might want to give yours a call as you mentioned.

We also require the adopter and dog to attend a minimum 6 week basic obedience class. It really is invaluable. Even though many adopters are knowledgeable and have successfully home trained previous dogs before, a group class is an excellent opportunity not only to learn the basics, but is a great setting for you to bond with your dog and provides excellent opportunities for socialization and group interaction and also teaches the dog to obey commands in an unfamiliar setting, admist a lot of distractions. AND you get to pick the brain of the trainer!:D Hopefully you'll find a group soon:)

Tie outs are also prohibited by our rescue group and we will not adopt to anyone planning on using one, the issue being safety, as many dogs have been injured, some fatally, due to tie outs, cable runs, etc. (choked, hung, snapped spine or neck) And while it may be convenient for the family in the short run, a quick fix to tie the dog out, in the long run, it does nothing to correct negative behavior, and in some cases, may actually make the dog more unruly as they get frustrated, bored, bark constantly, etc. I do hope you will not go this route...honestly, I think with a little time and training you won't need or even want one!:) And you want to be able to enjoy Gracie in other settings, other than your backyard!

The NILIF program is a really good one and if you google it, you'll get a lot of links that describe in detail, the specifics!

Good luck to you and Gracie!:)

[ParNone]

Hi Cubby!

Your situation sounds very similar to mine with Gully, except Gully will come to me. But he loves to be outside and he loves to bark when he's out there. So I can't just leave him outside. I don't think the tie out is the solution in your case, because that doesn't solve the barking issue. I think you need to be outside with him. You could maybe get a 40ft long lead to help while you're teaching Come, but I wouldn't just tie him outside by himself. I also don't think it would be a good idea to just start training outside and giving treats just outside. I think that's going to have the opposite result you're looking for.

What I did with Gully was make wherever I am, the most fun, bestest place to be. So first I made sure no toys are left outside. I go outside with him, several times throughout the day and bring the toy with me and we play. When I have him come inside, I do nothing negative. Even if I brought him in for barking. Once he's inside, we usually play a lil' more or he gets a treat or his dinner. Whatever it is, it's always a positive experience coming inside, even if I'm angry for him barking.

I also have treats in my pockets a lot so that even while inside or outside I can randomly call him to me, praise him, then tell him to go play again. I've left the back door open a lot during the winter, while training this (not going to be able to do this when summer is upon us). He's getting patterned though, so hopefully this will carry through once the door's not open all the time. The key in all of this being, that Coming to me and Coming inside is never a bad thing. Always good in his eyes.

Par...

[micki76]

Like Par said, make coming inside 1000% better than being outside. Inside is the place for attention, food, water, playtime, and best of all, treats. If Gracie won't come inside for regular dog treats, microwave a hot dog and chop it up in small pieces. Bring her inside and spend 5 or so minutes on training - sit, shake, etc. Use the hot dogs to entice her in and give as a reward when she does come inside. Once inside and training, give her some less fattening dog treats.

Since she already has issues with coming inside, never punish her or make it a bad experience no matter how mad you get. (I know it's hard, but you can do it!)

No matter the means you use to get her inside (enticing with hot dogs or holding her collar), praise, praise, praise her for coming in.

I have one that's pretty dense too, but food MOTIVATES her like nothing else.

I also would do the NILIF program. Nothing in the universe has helped me more than that has.

[wolfsoul]

Why not let her outside after you eat? If she sees you eating, she will start to become hungry herself. Then let her outside when you are done. By that time she will really want some food. Then, motive her to come back inside with her dinner. She can associate the house with yummy food. :)

As for the barking, you can get one of those citrus-spray collars for that. I believe you can get a kind where you press a remote when she barks and it sprays her. The regular kind sometimes goes off when the dog doesn't even bark.

Find something that motivates her like nothing else.

Maybe you can resort to only letting her outside if she is onleash? That way you could have control of her. If she pulls, I'd suggest a training tool liek a prong collar, a halti, or a whistle collar.

[lv4dogs]

You have received some great advice, ESPECIALLY the obedience class reccomendation. Classes should be taked with EVERY dog, no matter how much experience you &/or the dog has it is always best.
Also contact the rescue group I am sure they will more than happy to try to help you out.

[Glacier]

I agree that an obedience class would be a great help for both of you--and your hubby if you can get him to go along.

I know this is going to sound nuts, but some of this is a good thing. Gracie is a rescue, right? God only knows what she's been through before. She's been with you for a couple months now. Initially she was probably on her best behavior or too scared to try anything. Now she's comfortable with you. She trusts you and knows you won't hurt her so she's pushing and trying to find her limits. You need to set those limits very clearly for her--which is what a class will help you do.

Good luck.

[Vette]

:eek: I wish i could give you some useful advise. but i dont really have any.

have you thought about using prong collars?
ive heard good things about them,, but havent tried them myself or know anyone who has.

i found a couple of websites that spread good light about them though..

http://www.oaktrees.org/henrey.shtml

http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

do a yahoo or google search on them. there are tons of websites out there with pictures and info.

[sammy101]

Prong collars should only be used to walking.And shouldnt be worn just around the house,its not very safe.I use one of Kodie,and he doesnt pull me all over the place
I would recommend Obediance class,it will help ALOT,and you two can bond even more.You've already got some great advice.:)

[cubby31682]

She does have a prong collar. It works great on her. So great in fact that she will do nothing wrong. As soon as you take it off she becomes her self. I can't let her wear it in the yard because of the trees and plants that she plays in. They are dog friendly, I checked on that before I got her.

Like I have said before, this is MY first real dog. I am doing all the training most of the feeding praising and such. She and I had 'alpha' issues. So I have taken over all of the responsibilty.

The problem with the food thing, is she trusts us now and doesn't eat right when you give her food. She works her way there. Slowly. Which is good but also bad. It isn't a good thing for me to show her, her food she just keeps playing. She does play fetch but only inside. I try to play fetch with her outside but she wont return anything except a snow ball. :confused: I will really try to give her lots of praise for comming inside with me from now on.

Yes I did get her from a Doberman rescue, which they have given me all sorts of advice. I will start bringing toys outside with me. Also a lot of treats. I hope she can learn quick. Tomorrow when I get home from work I might take her outside off leash with a pocket full of treats and a good toy. I will try to teach her 'come' a little bit better.

Thanks everyone for all the great advice. I really appreciate it so much.

[shais_mom]

when will I learn to read the ENTIRE thread before I post or PM?
*sigh*
oh well!
I just sent you a PM but seriously let me know if you want the gentle leader I would be happy to send it to you!

[bckrazy]

I also highly recomend NILIF training at home and at least 8 weeks of obedience classes. 16-week classes sound like the best for her. Search for the nearest postitive-reinforcement-based obedience classes near you, I do not recomend Petsmart training as their trainers are only required to go through a 2-day training seminar, and most of them have no idea what they're doing :rolleyes:

I don't think you should just cover this up with a prong collar or a gentle leader or a shock collar or any other man-made training device. There are still obviously huge alpha and behavioral issues going on. You might even want to try to find an affordable animal behaviorist to talk to.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Your problem is very fixable. It will take patience and dedication on your part to retrain the dogs behavior into a positive response when she is called. The success of this depends more on you and your dedication to the retraining process than it does on the dogs part.

First realize that obedience classes are a must for the two of you. It will help to strengthen the bond between the two of you and will establish you as the alpha in the pack. When looking for a class to enroll in, I strongly recommend finding a trainer who either clicker trains or does positive training and teaches competitive obedience. A teacher who teaches competitive obedience is one who is current with most of the latest training techniques and on what works and what doesn't work. Most use the NILIF theory.

Second, begin consistent and several times a day recall training. This is sometimes referred to as the "come" command. This training process should start in the house where the problem is not associated with in any way. Make sure you have lots of very enticing treats on you before you start your training session.

Take a 10 to 15 foot leash (not a retractable one) and from about 2 feet away from the dog give a "Gracie, Come" command. Don't run the command together but pause ever so slightly after the name. By saying the name, you are asking her to pay attention to you as you are about to tell her what you expect of her. Then very clearly give the "come". Say it in a happy upbeat manner. If she comes, immediately (you can not hesitate on the reward) give her a treat and praise her. Let her know she did right! If she doesn't come immediately, give her a gentle tug with the leash and coax her to you. The key here is gentle. Don't drag her to you. It has to be her decision to come to you. It is your job to make her want too! That's why the treats have to be very rewarding. After the gentle tug, if she comes you want to again immediately (no hesitation) give her the treat and praise.

If she doesn't come with the gentle tug then forget the exercise for this time period. However, she does not get any treats or even her kibble. Some people think this is cruel but it won't hurt the dog to go without for awhile. It may take a day or so but eventually when you go back to the exercise you will have a compliant dog ready to learn. Of course it won't realize it is being taught since it will only be worried about the food.

Remember, this exercise is only done in the house for now. After you get a consistent response every three times, cut back on the treat to every other response but never give up on the praise. You can gradually begin to increase the length of the leash out too. Then once you get 5 consistent responses from at least 10 feet, you can lessen the treat to every third time but again never give up on the praise. Your goal is 20 consistent successful recalls in a row. If she messes up on number 10 or 15, start over again. You must have a consistent recall of 20 times in the house. If you achieve that goal in the house, you can try it off leash. If you have problems then she isn't ready and you must go back to using the leash. After she is doing off leash in the house, you are ready to move outside.

When you are ready to move the exercises outside, realize you are basically starting the whole process over again but it is happening outside now. There will be more distractions and more desire to not listen but if you follow the steps you did inside, you will succeed.

I hope this helps you. Please check on the obedience classes in addition to the above recall training exercises. If your trainer teaches the "come command" differently, follow their instructions but make sure you don't progress without making sure the dog fully understands what behavior is expected. Some trainers progress through exercises too fast before the dog has "caught on" completely.

[cubby31682]

Wow Dixieland Dancer, thanks for the great step by step training. I think that is what I needed. :D I will be trying that. I really appreciate it so much.

We do want to get her into obedience classes the only problem is the trainers we have found what their class to be a certain size and if it isn't they cancel the class. We were also going to go with private lessons with my brothers friend (he has been training dobermans and rotts for years.) but he hasn't gotten ahold of my brother about it. I also will be working on the NILIF program as well. I made my husband read up on it when he got home so we both know what to do. That way it wont just be me working with her.

Katie

[clara4457]

[i]
Second, begin consistent and several times a day recall training. This is sometimes referred to as the "come" command. This training process should start in the house where the problem is not associated with in any way. Make sure you have lots of very enticing treats on you before you start your training session.[/B]

Excellent advice all around. I would just like to offer one possiblity. If she has learned to associate the word "come" with less that desirable consequences you might want to use a different word when you are training the recall command. It doesn't really matter what it is - as long as the dog learns what it means. Think of it from the dog's perspective. She is having a blast playing in the back yard. She is a high energy dog that needs to burn off some steam. You call her in and all the fun stops. Do you really blame her for not wanting to come in? How would you feel if you were having fun playing baseball or dancing or something like that and someone made you go home and sit in a corner. Would you then try to avoid the person the next time you were out having fun?

Also if the normal treats aren't working - up the ante. Get better treats - pieces of hot dog, chicken, roast beef, etc.

As far as a Gentle Leader - I think it is a great tool, but it is only a tool. It will never solve the underlying problem.

[ramanth]

I have nothing else to add. You've received some great advice cubby. :)

Kia was very headstrong when I first got her, but an obedience class and a lot of patience (boy was that ever hard!) on my part really paid off. :)