is this cruel? [Archive]

LauraT7

02-17-2005, 12:42 PM

Tristan came to us with a collar similar in operation to the prong collar, except that it was 1" nylon and of course, did not have prongs. the idea behind these collars is that they pinch closed to a snug fit, so that they can't be pulled off (like a buckled/ fixed collar) nor can they get continually tighter like a choke collar ( like a slipnot)

Tristan was a BIG puller at first, and I tried the gentle leader, (he would not walk at all with it) and the fast turns, I had given up on walking him, only taking him places he could run free or use the long line - as he had pulled my shoulder out so badly I could could barely stand it. I tried kinds of things before resorting to a prong collar - AFTER researching how they work.

Esp since Tristan had some problems with eating, and the vet figured he had some damage to his throat from a choke chain at one time.

If a prong collar is properly fitted - you remove or add enough prong links to simply MEET snugly around the dogs neck. the prongs should not 'dig' into the skin, they should just snugly put pressure on the dogs neck. it is NOT a 'choke collar" as it does NOT get tighter and tighter as they pull (like a slipnot) - as you can see in the photo - there is a limit to how tight it can get - only as tight as the rings meet. it disburses the pressure around their entire neck.

Especially with a large puppy or a large dog that has a thick ruff - like a golden or a shepherd, the prongs work through the thick fur to put even pressure around their entire neck - unlike choke chain collars, that can pinch in one place and pull painfully on their fur. The prongs are blunt, not sharp, and if you want, you can even get plastic tips for them.

Once Tristan learned how to NOT pull with his prong collar, we didn't need it anymore. If he 'forgot' i would bring the collar out for a day or two of 'reminder' and he would go back to not pulling.

I would always advocate trying a gentler method FIRST - but as a last resort, prong collars DO work and ARE humane. IF they are properly fitted and used!

laura

senorita02

02-17-2005, 12:52 PM

I have never used a prong collar, but i do use a choke chain only when walking the dogs, as u know my dogs are well over 100 pounds especially Senorita she is very large and very strong, i would not be able to walk her without a choke chain, she doesnt pull as much anymore, most the time she just casually walks at my side, with Face he is a perfect walker so i could really use any collar with him.
At home i dont have them wear collars, in the house, just cuz they seem like it would be uncomfortable to always have something on your neck.
I think if used properly there isnt any reason not to use those type of collars on very large strong dogs. And i didnt use them when they were puppies.

EssTer

02-17-2005, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by lute
i don't think they are cruel as long as you use them properly. i know a little old lady that has a huge GSD. that dog would drag her around if it weren't for the collar.

the collar may look mean, but it really doesn't hurt them. when the dog pulls on the leash it pinches them and makes them stop.

I agree with Lute

Jadapit

02-17-2005, 12:53 PM

When I first started walking Jada she pulled me so bad that I wanted to cry. She almost ripped my arm out of it's socket. She is a very strong dog. Our walk time was NOT fun. Not for her or me.

I went to a pit bull site and I asked everyone on there what to use when I walked her and almost all of them told me to try the prong collar. These people totally love their dogs and they would never use anything that would hurt them. I did get the collar and omg what a difference it made. We could go on a walk and we both could enjoy it. They told me on that site to use the prong collar for awhile until she learned not to pull and then go back to her regular collar. It worked like a charm.;)

Logan

02-17-2005, 01:01 PM

We have used a prong collar, successfully, with our Honey (Golden Retriever). Sometimes, the "choke" type chain doesn't work as well with the long haired dogs, I think. I know that some peopel are very much against them, but our girl learned to walk beautifully on the leash and she never seemed to have pain or suffering associated with this type of collar. Once we had her under control on her walks, we never used it again.

All of the "hoopla" is associated with proper use. It could be used inappropriately, but we learned how to properly use it and had a much better girl on our hands, one that we could control more easily and was safe from the lunging and other things associated with the pulling that leashes and collars bring.

Logan

PJ's Mom

02-17-2005, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by lute
i don't think they are cruel as long as you use them properly.

I agree. I have never used one, but if I had a large dog, and felt it necessary, I would probably give one a try. :)

aly

02-17-2005, 01:09 PM

I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.

All I have to say is I would never put one of those things around my neck, therefore, I will never put one around my dogs' necks. Especially when I know much better techniques that WORK.

Originally posted by LauraT7
Tristan came to us with a collar similar in operation to the prong collar, except that it was 1" nylon and of course, did not have prongs. the idea behind these collars is that they pinch closed to a snug fit, so that they can't be pulled off (like a buckled/ fixed collar) nor can they get continually tighter like a choke collar ( like a slipnot)

We use those collars at the shelter and in obedience classes. But they aren't meant to be used in leash training at all. Just as a precaution that the dogs don't pull out of their collars.

Well, the dogs DO wear them during leash training I mean. But we don't use them to jerk around the dog or anything like that.

My Peanuts

02-17-2005, 01:13 PM

My boyfriend has a 145lb Akita and he has a collar like that. I only saw them use it on him in the beginning. I haven't seen them use it in years, but Grizz (the Akita) walks better on a leash now. I agree with others that say they aren't cruel if used properly. Sometimes it's for the dogs own safety. When I would walk Grizz before he knew how to walk on a leash it could have been dangerous. A large dog has a lot of power. Combine that power with a puppy brain and you have trouble, so sometimes those collars are necessary. When Grizz used it he never squeaked or showed that he was in any pain.

wolfsoul

02-17-2005, 01:17 PM

I tried everything with Timber. Haltis/gentle leaders are absolutely useless with her. I tried every training method in the book. The only thing that works is the prong collar. I don't find it cruel at all. She knows that if she is wearing this collar, and she pulls, it will pinch her. So she does not pull. So she does not get pinched. There is no cruelty in that. However, once the collar comes off and a different collar goes on, she will start to pull again. I have a bad arm, and the prong collar has really helped. I feel that Timber and I have much more relaxing and fun walks, and have even learned to bond better as a result.

RB Leather also wore a prong collar. Unfortunatly it didn't work. She still pulled. She walked much better with a halti but she could pull it off her head. Choke chain was useless.

LorraineO

02-17-2005, 01:18 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aly
[B]I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.

Yes you did say we were uneducated,,, or excuse me,,,,, not educated enuff... thank you *I* am,, and so are many of the ppl who use them... dont call us not educated enuff because we use something you dont believe in!

Your Quote Aly....
People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

LorraineO

02-17-2005, 01:19 PM

wolfsoul

02-17-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by My Peanuts
Sometimes it's for the dogs own safety.
I agree! There was one time where Timber and I were rollerblading. Generally she sticks by me and doesn't run off. But this one time, she decided to take off after a dog. She was wearing a halti so she didn't stop. She ran right out into the road, dragging me along. I fell and was hurt, and Timber could have easily been hit by a car. With a prong collar, she puts ABSOLUTELY no tension on the leash. I believe she must be touch sensitive around her neck area, because she will not pull the leash at all. It hangs loosely by her side. And I don't have to worry about her running off.

slleipnir

02-17-2005, 01:22 PM

When I had Josie in obediance, they told us to use them. It did work really good, but I haven't used it since then. I'd much prefer the gentle leader. It looks really good too.

Tollers-n-Dobes

02-17-2005, 01:22 PM

I use one on Echo and sometimes on Tango depending on where I'm going, I don't think it's cruel at all as long as you use it correctly. Both dogs will walk jsut fine on a regular collar unless they're really excited about something and I'd rather know that I have full control of them, than have them run after something and ahve no control over them at all. That's jsut my opinion though...

micki76

02-17-2005, 01:24 PM

I don’t often disagree with you Alyson, but on this point (based on my experience) I do. I no longer use a prong collar, because I discovered the No Pull Harness and now use that, but I’ve used a prong in the past on a large dog that was a puller. I wouldn’t use it on a small dog, because they’re easier to control with other methods (the No Pull Harness).

Before I bought the prong collar, I wrapped it around my arm, making sure that the inside of my arm (the soft, fleshy part) was making contact with the prongs. I them pulled on the end of the collar very hard. Know what? Didn’t really hurt that much. It was uncomfortable enough, that I didn’t want to do it again. I really don’t see how being uncomfortable for a bit, and learning that the uncomfortableness is the result of your own actions, is bad. That’s how the No Pull Harness works as well, it makes their armpits uncomfortable when they pull.

JMO :)

Kfamr

02-17-2005, 01:25 PM

I agree, once again, with Aly 100%

aly

02-17-2005, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by LorraineO
[QUOTE]Originally posted by aly
[B]I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.

Yes you did say we were uneducated,,, or excuse me,,,,, not educated enuff... thank you *I* am,, and so are many of the ppl who use them... dont call us not educated enuff because we use something you dont believe in!

Your Quote Aly....
People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

Ok, if you want to take it that way, there is nothing I can do about it. Dog training methods have changed drastically in the past 20 years, especially in the last 5 or so years. People ARE more educated now. I wasn't calling you uneducated and I'm not going to say that again.

People here think I'm a know-it-all, but I'm really not. I listen to what people say and see things from all sides. However, I have dedicated my life to dog training and rescue so I think I should be able to put my opinion on here and not be jumped all over. I am not spewing stuff that I make up. As I said, I've been studying this for years.

Take it how you want it. I can't keep posting and explaining what I meant.

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 01:28 PM

I am 115 lbs. and 5 ft. 2 inches tall, ( and hope to take off 10 lbs. more)...Dale is 100 lbs ( and probably is still going to put on 10 more lbs.) While Dale walks well on a leash, and isn't generally a puller...i could NEVER walk him securely w/o using the pronge. I am so happy to have it. If we are walking down the street, and he sees another dog, he does, naturally, try to go towards it, and w/o the pronge on, I would be dragging behind him...since i only outweigh him by 15 lbs. The obedience trainer along with the owners, decided a couple weeks into obedience school which dogs needed the pronge, and Dale, being a giant breed, and a breed capable of pulling thousands of pounds, was certainly a good canidate for the collar. I recommend it to any large breed dog owner. He understands when it is on, that we mean business, and he is to walk well with us...he seems to forget, at times, that we are alpha. We certainly don't use it in any kind of negative way...just by means of controlling him around strangers and dogs while walking him...and people should know that it is a pinch collar, not a stabbing collar...when he pulls, it pinches him, to remind him to walk nicely. We also train him with treats, and positive reinforcement, but this is certainly a neccessity for us...and probably for a lot of large breed dogs.

I wanted to add: Before putting the collar on him, he is put into a sit, and does not try to get away when he sees the collar...again, it only pinches him, when he starts to pull...during the majority of the walk, he doesnt even feel it...it has slack to it...Dale is stubborn and if he doesnt want to go somewhere, either, he will stop like a mule, and is nearly impossible to move..so it assists us that way as well.
To answer the question more briefly, i do not think it is cruel at all.

Glacier

02-17-2005, 01:28 PM

Try one--on yourself. Seriously...take a normal choke style collar, put it around your thigh and pull it like you would with a dog on a leash. It hurts like hell and you will have a bruise where the collar crosses. Then do the same thing with a prong collar, like the one pictured in this thread. Equal pressure all the way around, no pinching, no bruising.

Yes, I have tried it on myself. I don't use choke collars anymore. I do have a prong collar or two around the house. Most of the time I want my dogs to pull so I don't bother with any kind of training to stop it, but occasionally when taking a 140 pound malamute to the vet, the prong collar has been handy.

wolfsoul

02-17-2005, 01:31 PM

This is one reason I prefer prong collars to choke chains.

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.
http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

I also once read somewhere, that a choke chain used incorrectly can cut off the blood supply to the head, killing a dog. Prong collars are much easier to use correctly. You just have to make sure that it is not too tight (because if it is, the prongs will pinch the dog), and that it is high up on the neck. My dad wore a prong collar around his neck once for Halloween, and my stepmom dragged him around. He said that it didn't hurt all all when she pulled, it was just uncomfortable. He said it was no wonder the prong collar wasn't even effective on Leather -- she had fur, he only had bare skin, and it was only uncomfortable for him lol.

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 01:40 PM

I believe this is a similiar situation to spanking a child. Some consider it abuse, some consider it discipline. It can turn into abuse, either way...but it is a subject that will have very varying views...point blank.

micki76

02-17-2005, 01:40 PM

I think what we all need to remember is that having dogs is just like having kids (or it is to me). Many parents don’t spank. Many parents don’t speak harshly to their kids. Many parents use other ways to motivate and discipline their kids than other parents. Everyone is different, so our methods will all be different. I personally don’t like spanking kids, unless they’ve done something atrocious, but many parents use it for not telling the truth, talking back, etc. Some parents don’t spank at all.

Let’s all remember that we’re all different.

bckrazy

02-17-2005, 01:41 PM

I'm sorry, but I do not agree with using prong collars at all. Nor do I agree with choke chains. These are all just band-aids to the real training problem, using pain to subordinate your dog. To me, if some one absolutely needs a prong collar to control their dog, they have little to no control over that dog. What if the dog does manage to escape the collar? Will they be long gone? probably.

I know people who show their dogs, and use very fine choke chains adjusted correctly at the neck, which I'm passive about. They also only use these collars during shows, not during liesurely walks, because their dogs have been properly trained. 99% of the dogs I see being walked with choke chains and prong collars, are not fitted even close to correctly, and the dogs are still constantly looking for a reason/moment to yank their owners arm off (because the dog lacks training and, despite the painful collar they're wearing, in their minds they are still the alpha). Most people I see with dogs wearing choke chains and constantly tightening the chain, which is completely wrong. If choke chains are going to be used, you should only need to give a slight jerk every now and to remind the dog to heel. Again, training will solve these problems, but in today's society everyone wants an automatic fix.

What I use in replacement of a choke chain, is just a rolled leather collar fitted correctly at his neck. It doesn't tighten, restrict, or damage anything, but it won't slip off and its perfect for leash training. ALL of the awesome, credited, educated dog trainers I've met suggest this, and will not accept dogs into class with chokers, prongs, or haltis ^^

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by micki76
I think what we all need to remember is that having dogs is just like having kids (or it is to me). Many parents don’t spank. Many parents don’t speak harshly to their kids. Many parents use other ways to motivate and discipline their kids than other parents. Everyone is different, so our methods will all be different. I personally don’t like spanking kids, unless they’ve done something atrocious, but many parents use it for not telling the truth, talking back, etc. Some parents don’t spank at all.

Let’s all remember that we’re all different.

:) Smart minds think alike :) We posted pretty much the same thing at the same time :)

I also want to add, that someone who has never owned a giant breed, stubborn doggy, really can't understand the importance and usefulness of this collar....again, used appropriately, it can assist in positive results.

aly

02-17-2005, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by bckrazy
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with using prong collars at all. Nor do I agree with choke chains. These are all just band-aids to the real training problem, using pain to subordinate your dog. To me, if some one absolutely needs a prong collar to control their dog, they have little to no control over that dog. What if the dog does manage to escape the collar? Will they be long gone? probably.

That is a point I was trying to make, but you have worded it so much better than I managed to spit out. Sometimes I am so passionate about things that I don't know what I'm typing :o Great post and I totally agree.

wolfsoul

02-17-2005, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by bckrazy
(because the dog lacks training and, despite the painful collar they're wearing, in their minds they are still the alpha).
I disagree with this. Timber has always and will always be a very submissive dog. She has never shown any dominant behaviour towards a human. She would show lots of submissive urination when she was young. The prong collar also does not cause her any pain. Timber is very sensitive to pain. When something hurts her, she yelps. She does not even pull when she wears a prong collar -- which means she doesn't feel pain, nor does she even feel any discomfort. IF she is not feeling any pain or even any discomfort, I don't see how it is cruel. In my mind, letting her wear something that is potentially dangerous (ie, she can pull out of, she can drag with, or causes tracheal damage), is what is cruel. The only thing that works with her is a prong collar. No pain, no discomfort, because when she wears it, she does not pull at all.

Tollers-n-Dobes

02-17-2005, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by bckrazy
To me, if some one absolutely needs a prong collar to control their dog, they have little to no control over that dog. What if the dog does manage to escape the collar? Will they be long gone? probably.

I don't agree with that at all, simply because my dogs are very well trained and I normally have full control over them. If they happened to escape the collar (which I doubt they could, prong collars don't slip off easily.) My dogs would come back almost immediately, I jsut think the sue of the prong is much safer for both the owner and the dog depending on the situation. I agree with pretty much everything Jordan said..... But once agian that's just my opinion:)

aly

02-17-2005, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Christiansmommy

I also want to add, that someone who has never owned a giant breed, stubborn doggy, really can't understand the importance and usefulness of this collar....again, used appropriately, it can assist in positive results.

I don't think that is a fair statement at all. I use ONLY positive reinforcement on leash training shelter dogs (AND dogs in obedience classes) of all sizes, shapes, and personalities. Because I don't own a Giant breed doesn't make me ignorant to what works. I do this almost every day with some of the most stubborn dogs you'll come across.

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 01:51 PM

I just wanted to add one more thing, sorry :o , some dogs are naturally, genetically, more stubborn than others, and also not so quick to learn. I have to say, our neighbors Shepard is much more quick with learing things, then Dale. Shepards are highly intelligent dogs. But i knew Swissie's weren't *the* most intelligent breed around, and can tend to be stubborn at times. This type of collar has allowed me to get through to him, in a way that works for *his* personality type...just the same as potty training...paper training may work for a 15 lb toy poodle, but would certainly not be an option for a Swissie. We certainly do use treats and so forth when training, from a day to day basis...just in this department, a pronge is a neccessity. OKay, I am done :)

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by aly
I don't think that is a fair statement at all. I use ONLY positive reinforcement on leash training shelter dogs (AND dogs in obedience classes) of all sizes, shapes, and personalities. Because I don't own a Giant breed doesn't make me ignorant to what works. I do this almost every day with some of the most stubborn dogs you'll come across.

Just because something works for you, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone and every dog. If you feel confident in your training stubborn dogs w/o one, then kudos to you (seriously)...but for *me*, personally, Dale needs to be on a pronge if *i* am to take him for a walk, where other people and dogs may be...before owning a large breed, i may have felt differently, who knows, but considering my circumstances...it is a good choice for us.

aly

02-17-2005, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Just because something works for you, doesn't mean that it will work for everyone and every dog. If you feel confident in your training stubborn dogs w/o one, then kudos to you (seriously)...but for *me*, personally, Dale needs to be on a pronge if *i* am to take him for a walk, where other people and dogs may be...before owning a large breed, i may have felt differently, who knows, but considering my circumstances...it is a good choice for us.

It doesn't just work for me. It works for all other staff and volunteers at the shelter. It works for everyone who takes obedience classes from us. It works for some of the best behaviorists and trainers in the world.

And its not just the people who are experienced dog handlers and experienced in positive training. The everyday Joe Blow who takes our classes comes out with these methods working. And yes, several people in the classes have huge breeds.

bckrazy

02-17-2005, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
The only thing that works with her is a prong collar. No pain, no discomfort, because when she wears it, she does not pull at all.

I understand, thats totally your opinion and your dog, and this is just my opinion.. :) But to me, it just seems like if you have to put this pinch collar on your dog in order to walk her, there are still underlying problems. Its like dogs that need prongs are not pulling because of intimidation or threat. I think that dogs shouldn't yank you around because they respect you, and they've been trained not to pull, period.

And, yes I have had a very stubborn, huge dog in the past. when we got our Rottie, he had been owned by an abusive man and had never been leash trained at 4 years old. He would go crazy and bark and pull you across the street if he saw another dog (even though he loved other dogs, when properly introduced). We did use prong collars, haltis and choke chains at the strong recommendation of the highly educated Petsmart trainers. Nothing worked, at all. He would pull less with a prong collar, but the problem was still there, and if a dog really wants something and doesn't respect their owner and hasn't been trained thoroughly, they WILL pull to get it. Then my Mom found a wonderful Obedience academy, and after almost a year of training, he wouldn't pull us for the life of him, no matter what kind of collar he was wearing. He weighed well over 120 lbs, but he would walk right beside me with a loose leash no matter what kind of dog we were aproaching, when I was 9 years old.

LorraineO

02-17-2005, 02:07 PM

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by aly
It doesn't just work for me. It works for all other staff and volunteers at the shelter. It works for everyone who takes obedience classes from us. It works for some of the best behaviorists and trainers in the world.

And its not just the people who are experienced dog handlers and experienced in positive training. The everyday Joe Blow who takes our classes comes out with these methods working. And yes, several people in the classes have huge breeds.

Well, that is great for you and your staff and everyone who comes to your shcool. Different strokes for different folks. 3 out of the 9 dogs in *our* obedience class used them, and we all benefitted from it. Our trainer has been training dogs for 30+ years and I would go there again and again. His dogs are absolutely unbelievabley well trained. I am not going to turn this thread into *my* trainer is better than yours, and *my* trainer is more capable than yours...that would/could only be ones opinion and not factual.

aly

02-17-2005, 02:10 PM

I have been basing everything I've said on fact.

And I am not surprised your trainer has been doing it for 30 years. Those are mostly the ones who do still use those methods.

Kfamr

02-17-2005, 02:12 PM

I think the main thing that bothers me with collars such as these, is that people DEPEND on them (Not saying all people do, but a majority do) - and I don't like that. I'd much rather someone spend time with their dog, training it on their own, instead of depending on man-made products. (This includes bark collars and so on)

That's just my opinion and not one that I need to be bashed/bickered at for. :)

bckrazy

02-17-2005, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
I think the main thing that bothers me with collars such as these, is that people DEPEND on them (Not saying all people do, but a majority do) - and I don't like that. I'd much rather someone spend time with their dog, training it on their own, instead of depending on man-made products. (This includes bark collars and so on)

That's just my opinion and not one that I need to be bashed/bickered at for. :)

I so agree :) I'd also rather train my dog based on trust/respect than fear/pain.

micki76

02-17-2005, 02:18 PM

STOP arguing! Gah! No one is going to change anyone else’s mind about this issue, state your opinions and then let it go!

Why does every disagreement have to turn into an argument lately?

Jadapit

02-17-2005, 02:21 PM

Aly,
What do you do if you have the best trained dog in the world BUT it should decide to go after something and it decides not to listen to you? What do you use for some control then? I'm not trying to be a smart a** or anything I'm really not. I would think that could happen sometimes though.

With Jada having pit in her I honestly feel like I need some control over her because what if she suddenley decided to go after something? I would be in so much trouble because she has the pit in her and you know how people can be about them. I just feel safer when we are out if she has on the prong. I love Jada with all my heart and I wouldn't use anything on her that I thought would hurt her. May I ask you what it is that you dislike about the prong collar so much? Do you honestly think it really hurts the dog? Jada does not act like she is any any pain what so ever when she has on her prong collar.

aly

02-17-2005, 02:22 PM

Sorry Micki. I was jumped on repetitively by one person and became ultra sensitive on a subject I am already passionate about. There are some things that I cannot be quiet about because I am just so deeply involved. It is a big fault of mine.

While I express my views in passionate terms, I am not implying that any of you are bad people/dog owners/trainers. I wouldn't say that about anyone who loves their dogs like I do. BUT I do 100% stand by everything I have said. And it isn't just a blindly formed opinion. I do this every day.

Now I will shut up for Micki :D unless I absolutely can't help opening my mouth again!

aly

02-17-2005, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Jadapit
Aly,
What do you do if you have the best trained dog in the world BUT it should decide to go after something and it decides not to listen to you? What do you use for some control then? I'm not trying to be a smart a** or anything I'm really not. I would think that could happen sometimes though.

With Jada having pit in her I honestly feel like I need some control over her because what if she suddenley decided to go after something? I would be in so much trouble because she has the pit in her and you know how people can be about them. I just feel safer when we are out if she has on the prong. I love Jada with all my heart and I wouldn't use anything on her that I thought would hurt her. May I ask you what it is that you dislike about the prong collar so much? Do you honestly think it really hurts the dog? Jada does not act like she is any any pain what so ever when she has on her prong collar.

I understand your worry about Jada because she has pit in her. That is an incredibly scary thing in this world where people are so ignorant and quick to jump to calling all pits aggressive. I can understand where you're coming from, but I still would use a Gentle Leader, No Pull, Halti, etc on a Pit if I had one.

Bascially, if I had the best trained dog in the world who went after something and I could not stop it, I think that would be a thing that the prong would not help. If it is something that even the most well trained dog HAS to go right after that they forget their training, then there is not much else to be done in that situation.

I do know the prong collar hurts dogs when used improperly. And I think it is extremely easy for a majority of people to use it improperly. I see a lot of people yanking so hard on those things like they are choke chains. While it may not hurt when used properly, I still disagree with the method used. A common mistake is people are always telling their dogs "no no no" *yank yank yank* and punishing undesirable behavior. What they don't do is show the dog what a desirable behavior is. Instead of throwing this collar on a dog and letting them hurt or correct themselves, I do numerous exercises that show the dog that walking by my leg is a great and rewarding place to be. Most people don't like to do this simply because they are lazy and want that instant fix that bckrazy mentioned. I do understand your fear because Jada is a Pit though, so I'm NOT calling you lazy.

cali

02-17-2005, 02:37 PM

ip prefere not to use a prong myself. i have however used choke chains, Shadow was trained with a choke chain, and she wont walk nicley without one. not because she needs it but because she LIKES it, her coat is so thick around her neck that the chain has no effect on her whatsoever, but when she see's a choke chain she puts it on herself and walks in a perfect heel. with her normal collar she pulls, not hard but she pulls lol and she has gotten out of her collars before, did she take off? no, she sat her butt on the ground and waited for my dad to put it back on. Misty needs a haltie to be walked, I would NEVER use a prong or choke or anything that causes pain on her. why? because she wont care one way or the other, when she is exited she will yank the leash so hard she is walking on her hind legs and no amount of pain or dicomfort will stop her. so I use a haltie, oh she still pulls... but she cannot pull hard and see where she is going at the same time lol there is no underlying issues between Misty and me, Misty is just a very exitable dog and if she got out of the collar she would run 5 feet turn around and come flying to my arms, I know because she does it all the time, she has gotten out of the yard before.. I said "mist.." and she was back. Happy alos pulls on leash, would she go anywhere if she got off? I walk her off leash in a perfect heel, so you tell me.

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by aly
Sorry Micki. I was jumped on repetitively by one person and became ultra sensitive on a subject I am already passionate about. There are some things that I cannot be quiet about because I am just so deeply involved. It is a big fault of mine.

While I express my views in passionate terms, I am not implying that any of you are bad people/dog owners/trainers. I wouldn't say that about anyone who loves their dogs like I do. BUT I do 100% stand by everything I have said. And it isn't just a blindly formed opinion. I do this every day.

Now I will shut up for Micki :D unless I absolutely can't help opening my mouth again!

Hey, I agree with you 100%. :) If you were referring to me jumping on you, sorry you took it that way. I too, was just standing behind my views on the subject, and while I don't train tons of dogs like you...i do train my doggy, and I am his world, and this mommy would never do him harm, I am the most important thing to him...and i love him so very much! Anyway, enough said. :)

Jadapit

02-17-2005, 02:44 PM

Aly,
Thanks for replying back to me. What you said made a lot of sence. You just would NOT believe the dirty looks I get from people when I take Jada walking. It's so sad because Jada honestly loves everybody and she thinks everyone loves her also.

One time these two ladies were walking toward us and they saw Jada and they stopped dead in their tracks and they would not move until I went to the other side of the street. People can become so stupid when they see a pit.:mad:

Logan

02-17-2005, 02:48 PM

Didn't many of us say that we started with this collar and find it no longer necessary? Do any of you truly think that those of us who have chosen to use it would ever intentionally hurt our dogs???? I think NOT!!!!!

It is truly a difference of training methods, in my opinion, but not cruelty vs non-cruelty.

Logan

aly

02-17-2005, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Hey, I agree with you 100%. :) If you were referring to me jumping on you, sorry you took it that way. I too, was just standing behind my views on the subject, and while I don't train tons of dogs like you...i do train my doggy, and I am his world, and this mommy would never do him harm, I am the most important thing to him...and i love him so very much! Anyway, enough said. :)

Nope, I didn't mean you! I know you love your boy and I was just trying to get my points across.

aly

02-17-2005, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Jadapit
Aly,
Thanks for replying back to me. What you said made a lot of sence. You just would NOT believe the dirty looks I get from people when I take Jada walking. It's so sad because Jada honestly loves everybody and she thinks everyone loves her also.

One time these two ladies were walking toward us and they saw Jada and they stopped dead in their tracks and they would not move until I went to the other side of the street. People can become so stupid when they see a pit.:mad:

If I saw Jada on the street, you better run because I'd wanna steal her :)

Kfamr

02-17-2005, 02:59 PM

Logan, if you're referring to me - I said NOT ALL people depend on them, but a lot (majority is the word I used) DO depend on them - and that's what I dislike about them.

---------------------------------

Like bckrazy, I prefer to train my dogs on respect/trust.

Nala PULLS when she wants to. When on walks, and she pulls - I make her stop and sit. EVERYtime she pulls. There's no discomfort whatsoever in making her stop and sit, and generally it gives her the message to calm down. She realizes that she does not get to go any further/it doesn't get her there faster if she pulls on the lead.
It may take us longer, but she does get the message.

However, I used to walk my neighbor's Chocolate Lab years before I had dogs of my own. The dog pulled like crazy and they had me use a prong collar on him. Did it work? Not one bit. He HATED it. He was much more behaved on a normal collar.

They ended up taking him to obedience classes and worked with him almost 24/7 - last I've known he walks beautifully.

animal_rescue

02-17-2005, 03:01 PM

I have one of those for my big dogs(2 german sheperds and 1 doberman), I think they should only be used if the person knows how to use them. You could seriously hurt the dog if you pull to hard. I was taught how to use it in my agility class with Maggie.
My dogs are very good with the collar, one pull(not rough) makes them stop and they will enjoy the rest of the walk calmly.

Denyce

02-17-2005, 03:01 PM

Ok I agree with Aly that when prong collars and chokes are used incorrectly they can cause damage. I also agree that there are many, many people out there that don't know how to use them properly.

What I don't agree with is that everything has to be one way or another...black or white.

For some people prong collars used correctly assist in keeping a large dog under control at all times which makes for happier walks and bonding times. For others they prefer a choke. For others the halti works great! I think the most important thing is that your dog is always under your control, painfree and happy. I think everyone would agree with me on this one.

For our husky we use one of the modified choke collars. We tried several different things and this seems to make her the happiest. The halti made her miserable. She REALLY doesn't like something on her head. She doesn't even like us to handle her muzzle a lot. Harnesses also made her uncomfortable. She just keeps shaking her body the whole time. I don't really like choke collars because of all of her hair around her neck that even when it was loose it seemed to annoy her. We need to keep a collar on her at all times. The leather one we had just needed to be kept so tight all the time that I didn't like it. So with the modified choke or as some know it as the Greyhound collar, we can have it looser around her neck for comfort when she isn't on a leash. When she is on the leash and pulls with her usual excitement it tightens just enough so that the collar doesn't pull off her head and she gets away.

I think each dog needs different things and as long as they are used properly then you need to use what works with your dog.

I also think the prongs just look horrible which is what most people would immediatly respond to.

Denyce

Christiansmommy

02-17-2005, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Denyce

What I don't agree with is that everything has to be one way or another...black or white.

For some people prong collars used correctly assist in keeping a large dog under control at all times which makes for happier walks and bonding times. For others they prefer a choke. For others the halti works great! I think the most important thing is that your dog is always under your control, painfree and happy. I think everyone would agree with me on this one.

I think each dog needs different things and as long as they are used properly then you need to use what works with your dog.

I also think the prongs just look horrible which is what most people would immediatly respond to.

Denyce

I agree with you 100%...

I guess, I obviously, couldn't have said it better myself ;)

K9soul

02-17-2005, 03:07 PM

First off, this is not directed at anyone in particular, but is merely insight and my opinion on why these types of threads can tend to get emotional and out of hand.

The emotions involved in this kind of discussion are sparked, in my opinion, by simple words such as "cruel" or "uneducated." I think people would feel less defensive if the wording was different, such as "I don't like them personally." or "I think there are better training methods." But the moment words like cruel or uneducated come into it, it takes it to a new emotional level. I can tell you it is a VERY distressing feeling when you feel like someone is saying or implying that you are cruel to your beloved furkids. I would be very hesitant to use the word "cruel" unless someone is deliberately being neglectful or hurtful to their dog. As far as education, it all depends on where one gains their education. I have read and looked at many books and a great many of them differ in their training methods by a lot.

Many people have very different ideas on what cruelty is. I was accused of being cruel to my collies once while I was out hiking, because Cody was wearing a doggie backpack and the person felt that was cruel to make him wear it. This was despite his tail wagging and him happily trotting along wearing his pack. What I'm saying though is that I believe all of us here feel passionate about our dogs and love them beyond words, and that is why when we see the words cruel in reference to something we do or have done, it is very hurtful and distressing. I am sure some of you recall another thread where someone believed that crating dogs was cruel.

As far as this collar, I do not use it as a training tool, but have used it a few times for specific situations when walking Tommy in areas of traffic and startling noises. I will explain briefly my reasoning. Tommy has timidity issues and sometimes tries to bolt when something frightens him. He is a large dog, stronger than me, and for a couple YEARS I used a gentle leader when walking him to make sure he couldn't bolt and tear his leash out of my hands and barrel into oncoming traffic. For almost two years, his tail was between his legs, and he was miserable on every walk that involved this head collar. I tried everything to get him accustomed to it so he wouldn't be miserable, but he just was, he hated that thing on his face. With some misgivings, I picked up a prong collar one day and tried it. First walk, his tail was up, wagging, and he was happy for most of the walk. One thing startled him and he jumped and pulled, but let up when it got uncomfortable. He was actually more confident and less jumpy without halter collar.

I haven't used it in months now, he's getting better and better all the time. I am working with him diligently, using only positive methods in training. I do not really see it as a training tool, but neither do I see the halti as a training tool. They are insurance, I suppose Band-aid is a good word for it but sometimes you need a band-aid in certain situations.

Do I believe they have the potential to be used cruelly? Yes. I also do not believe they should EVER be put on a young puppy, and never before a dog is properly leash trained. Those are my beliefs.

Just please, when disagreeing with a training method, try to be careful in your wording, disagree and say the methods you prefer, but try to avoid words like "cruel," otherwise the person is immediatley put on the defensive, and may possibly close their minds to your advice at that point. Of course if you saw someone actually hurting their dog and abusing deliberately, that would be different, but I truly do not believe that of anyone here. :)

aly

02-17-2005, 03:18 PM

Jessica,

I know you said you were not directing that to anyone, but since I'm one of the only ones with those opinions, I can only assume :p

I told her SEVERAL times I was not calling her uneducated. She latched on to that word and wouldn't let go or listen to me. I can't really do anything about that.

I may have used the word cruel in my post because it was in my head from the title of this thread. I told Naomi on MSN that cruel was probably too strong of a word. I do think that a lot of people who use it do make it cruel though. I do not think anyone here is cruel, but that doesn't mean I agree with those training methods at all.

I will back down from almost any disagreement, unless it is something that I feel so passionately about. This is obviously one of those things. I made it as clear as possible that I was not doubting anyone here or accusing them of being bad trainers. I also made it clear I wasn't calling anyone uneducated. So I still feel justified in my wording.

(Sorry Micki, I'm trying :o )

K9soul

02-17-2005, 03:21 PM

Aly, I guess I should have been a little clearer, I meant in reference to any thread that talks about a training method being "cruel" and not just this thread. Such as there was the crate training one where someone said they felt crating was cruel. I just think you have to be careful when expressing your opinion to avoid words like that, it is very hard not to take personally. Hope that clears it up a bit, I truly did not mean it just to be aimed at you.

jackie

02-17-2005, 03:30 PM

I may have used the word cruel in my post because it was in my head from the title of this thread.

sorry. i used the word cruel because i couldn't think of a more suitable word. :(

I was just interested in others peoples thoughts about this collar.

aly

02-17-2005, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by jackie
sorry. i used the word cruel because i couldn't think of a more suitable word. :(

I was just interested in others peoples thoughts about this collar.

Oh I wasn't blaming you at all. Tons of people do think the collar is cruel. It wasn't bad of you to ask about it.

I hope all of our responses haven't confused you, hehe.

My Peanuts

02-17-2005, 03:53 PM

I have something to add that I didn't say in my post. I would never use this on my dogs because they are too small. I don't think they even make them for small dogs, but if they did I wouldn't use them. Like I said, I don't think they are cruel if used properly. Grizz is 145lbs and he has thick hair. I doubt he feels too much when he pulls. Sylvia is 17lbs and Harley is 22 lbs. I think using this on dogs that size would be wrong. I can control a 22 lb dog safely, but as I said, a 145lb dog is hard for anyone to handle. There are other ways to control a small dog versus a very large dog.

Anyway, the thing must work because Grizz walks well on a leash and he doesn’t need the collar anymore.

sammy101

02-17-2005, 04:22 PM

Ive tried everything with Kodie for him to stop pulling.He's too stubborn:p His obediance Trainer told us to get him him,because she knew that he likes to pull.This thing works very well on him,he responds good to it.If he didnt have it on,i'd be getting dragged around in the dirt,literally.I dont plan on using it on Lucy though,she walks nicely already and dont have any problems with her:) I dont have a problem with it if its used properly.I see mostly the Larger breeds walked with a Prong collar.ive never seen a small dog with one.

tikeyas_mom

02-17-2005, 04:28 PM

i found the prong was a very useful collar to use when training Baby not to pull. I also used it on Tikeya as a young dog, it was a very good tool to use to get you to heal and walk by my side...

I dont think they are crule at all..

anna_66

02-17-2005, 04:40 PM

I have used the prong for Roxey, but no longer need to.

I've tried it with Huney and she'll pull anyway so I don't use it on her. I honestly haven't worked with her that much and it's my fault and I totally take the blame for that.

Angus never even really needed a leash, he just stayed right there with you:)

And Bon...so far he has no pulling issues so I don't have to worry about it:D

But, whenever I take any of them out I put their choke/training collar on. Both Roxey and Huney have "slipped" out of their regular collar and I don't want this to happen.

wolfsoul

02-17-2005, 04:48 PM

I agree with Jessica. I don't think it was the title of the thread that bothered me, but when people keep saying that it's cruel, it irks me. It makes me feel like people think I'm being intentionally abusive to animals.

I've heard several times people mentioning haltis, etc, and these are some reasons I prefer the prong collar. Not to say any of these other methods are "cruel." Different things for different dogs.

With the prong collar, Timber knows that if she pulls, the prongs will pinch her. So she doesn't pull, and there's no discomfort. She is relaxed. There is no strain on my arm (I have a bad arm).

The halti has to be one of the worst experiences I've ever had. No matter what size you put on her, if she pulls backwards, she can slip out of it. She pulls so hard and jerks her head around that EVERY single time she wears a halti, her tongue bleeds. And if anyone has ever had a dog with a bleeding tongue, they know that the blood just pours. :( The halti makes her yelp, it makes her unhappy, and yet she still continues to pull.

Her nylon collar is what she wears all the time. When she wears it with a leash, she pulls, and makes a hoarse "seal" type sound, like she's being choked and can't breathe. If I continuously walked her with that, she would have so much damage to the trachea.

The second best thing I've used is the no-pull body harness. However, if she wants to go bad enough, she can use her entire body to overpower me. The straps cut off the circulation under her legs. It tires my arm.

When she lived with me, she walked fairly well. I used the "stop walking when she pulls" method. However, it didn't work alot of the time, and now that she is living from me, and the bus schedule changed, I can't be there to train her to walk better every single day. Whenever my aunt or uncle tried to take her for a walk, she would pull like crazy. So they never walked her. I reccommended the prong collar because I had seen how well she walked when she wore Leather's. They got one, and now she gets two walks a day. They tried obedience classes, but dropped out shortly because she was too much to handle in such an environment. Luckily I'm getting her back in just over 3 months and I can retrain her and she will do well again. Maybe I can even get her to walk nicely on leash again. But for now, the prong collar is the safest thing for her, and it actually allows her to be walked. If letting her get exersise without any discomfort or stress is negative reinforcement, than I must be a really cruel person for wanting her to have a relaxing and happy walk.

Some dogs will pull no matter what type of collar they wear. Every dog is different, and the prong collar works for Timber.

lizbud

02-17-2005, 04:58 PM

I used the prong collar with Buddy at the recommendation of
my Vet. I mentioned Bud's pulling on leash when he was about
2 yrs old. Buddy never objected to it at all & would sit quietly
while I put it on before walks. I never considered it a training
device, because it didn't "train" him, but it sure made walks a
whole lot safer for both of us.:) Never used it for Smokey or
Maggie, but I don't expect them to get as large as Buddy was.

LorraineO

02-17-2005, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by aly

I told her SEVERAL times I was not calling her uneducated. She latched on to that word and wouldn't let go or listen to me. I can't really do anything about that.

I

you can say you were not calling me or ppl who use the prong as uneducated or rather not educated enuff all you like,,, the bottom line is that you did. I suggest you re read your post where you say that.... Thats what I take offense to,not your beliefs,,,, I simply *latch onto* what is said to me. If its not what you meant,, then why did you say it? enlighten me,, I am listening ;)

Samantha Puppy

02-17-2005, 05:47 PM

I have to say, I'm neutral on the subject as I see the pros and cons of both arguments but I didn't take Aly's comment to mean anyone here was uneducated. Lorraine, chill. She didn't mean that personally. Aly's more classy than that.

Kfamr

02-17-2005, 05:48 PM

Lorraine, I think you're being incredibly unfair to Aly.

Aly is a VERY kind-hearted person. She would never in anyway insult someone, belittle someone, or call them uneducated.

I read her post several times and there's not one setence that refers to you or anyone else whom uses the prong collar being uneducated. She did, however, say that people are more educated now. I can see where possibly you have taken that in the wrong way, but if she says she did not mean it in the way you're percieving it, she means it.

She's not one to lie or indirectly say something, she has far more class and tact than that.

RobiLee

02-17-2005, 05:51 PM

There was a time when I thought the prong collar was a hideous torture device. It just looked so wicked and I thought for sure that it would hurt any dog. Alden had been wanting me to try it but I refused. Katie is somewhat difficult to walk but I can control her. Tori, on the other hand is completely uncontollable. I am not exaggerating. It wouldn't matter how much I had worked with her or if I had treats in my hand. All that girl wants to do is go, go and go. She pulls so hard and actually gets her belly down low to the ground to pull as hard as she can. I beleive she is a true sled dog ;) . It was very embarrassing not to be able to walk her properly and I certainly could not walk both of the girls together. I went to visit a very close friend ;) and she asked me if I had ever tried the prong collar. I told her how I felt about it, but she showed me how to use it and told me to just give it a try and let me borrow hers. So, I did. Well, let me tell you that it was the best thing that the girls and I ever got! I can now walk Tori with no problems what so ever. It worked so well that I immediately went and got one for Katie. I have never seen either of my girls show any signs of pain or distress when they are wearing their prong collars. Every time they see us get the prong collars out they get super excited because they know it means WALK TIME. The best part about it is that I can now walk both Katie and Tori at the same time all by myself! I love it!!!

I am not saying what is right or wrong all I am saying is that I don't believe it is cruel and it works for me. I would also like to add that I would hope the no one would look down on me because I use these collars. Anyone who knows me even a little bit knows how much I love my girls. They mean everything to me and I would never ever hurt them.

Robin :)

MariaM

02-17-2005, 05:53 PM

While Major has never used a prong collar, I'm not against them being used properly.

Major used the halti. It works well for him. He does not like it one bit, but he accepts it and he thinks that a walk with a halti is better than no walk at all. And I think that a walk with a halti is better than with a normal leash, him choking himself. I did train him well to walk without pulling, with a normal leash, but sometimes he'd lunge without me expecting it, if he saw a cat, dog, person, and that is really hard to handle. So I use the halti.

I believe all dogs are different as well. Kay mentioned that she stopped when Nala pulled. I tried that for Major, didn't work at all. He yapped and yapped and yapped. That is a training method that I'm sure works great for some dogs, but not at all for Major.

I am totally for positive reinforcement. But I also know every dog is different and respond differently to different training/band-aid devices.

I usually stay out of these threads, even though they aren't all that bad or anything, just because I always have a hard time typing out my true opinion. I usually end up wanting to go back on something I said, because it ended up being worded wrong. So hopefully this time I got what I wanted to say across.

dukedogsmom

02-17-2005, 05:55 PM

Way off topic but I've got to say, Maria, your new sig is great!

wolfsoul

02-17-2005, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Way off topic but I've got to say, Maria, your new sig is great!
I was just thinking the same thing. :)

MariaM

02-17-2005, 05:58 PM

THANK YOU! :D I'm rather proud of it myself. ;)

aly

02-17-2005, 06:33 PM

I'd like to thank the people who know me enough to know I wouldn't sit here calling people cruel or uneducated. I don't know what to do, short of saying it until blue in the face, I WASN'T JUDGING ANYONE HERE OR CALLING ANYONE ANYTHING. I've been here for 4 years. Surely in that time, people have gotten to know me and know that I don't go around causing trouble or calling people names. If anyone would like to come hook me up to a lie detector test, feel free. I don't think badly of anyone here who chooses to use these collars. I DO think badly of people who use them in a cruel manner.

I feel like some people think I just don't like it because it looks mean. And some people think I just don't know because I have medium sized dogs. I don't talk about my experience to toot my own horn. I do it so that people can see I'm forming an educated opinion. I would never so passiionately stand behind something that I didn't know much about. I hate to look like a fool, so when I say something, I make absolute sure I know a lot about it. I've experienced the incredible task of walking a 175 lb adolescent male dog who thought he was king of the world. Not fun and left me crying more than once. With consistency, myself and the other volunteers were eventually able to make extreme progress with him using only positive methods. It did take longer than usual.

By the way, the "be a tree" method DOES work. Everyone is right when they say dogs are different and need different training methods. But the key to training is patience and consistency. A lot of people will practice "being a tree" (not moving when the dog pulls) most of the time, but when in a hurry, let the dog get away with some pulling. Well, if the dog gets away with it just even once out of twenty times, the dog will know there is a chance it will work again and continue pulling and pulling hoping to get rewarded for it again. I could go a lot further into that theory with examples, but I doubt anyone wants me to talk more on this thread.

Lorraine - I can't really explain anything else to you. You won't hear it.

It means a lot to me that some of you stood up for who I am, knowing I wouldn't do that. Thanks :)

K9soul

02-17-2005, 06:50 PM

Aly, I do hope you realize that I never thought you were calling names, I just advised anyone and everyone when discussing training methods that the use of the words like "cruel" can easily be taken personally and misunderstood (as we are seeing here somewhat I think).

In your first post you stated: "I think it is very cruel" As someone who has used one before my knee-jerk reaction was to feel that someone considered something I did to be cruel, and just the thought that someone might think I was being cruel to my dogs by using one made me feel almost tearful. Please I hope you can understand why I, or someone else, might have read it that way, at least at first. After taking some time to think and consider things, and yes also because I know you and how kind hearted and caring and sensitive you are, I decided it wasn't meant the way it might appear. I then made my response that just the WORDING was what can throw people off. "I don't like them" wouldn't have hit me the same way as "I think they are cruel" did.

I truly hope you can kind of understand where I'm coming from here, and I do understand where you are coming from as well. The LAST thing I want is to hurt you and make you feel singled out and attacked.

I know you are feeling distressed now so I just want you to know that I know how kind hearted and caring a person you are, and that you never intended to say anyone here was cruel. You were just trying to encourage what you feel to be a better method. {{group hugs}} :)

Vette

02-17-2005, 07:06 PM

Ive heard good things about prong collars. but the looks of them alone is scary. :eek:

micki76

02-17-2005, 07:12 PM

Aly, I don't think anyone thinks you're being mean, or calling names (and if they do, they don't know you at all). I think, like Jessica said, some people may have a knee jerk reaction to your choice of words. I know you don't think I'm a cruel pet owner, or I wouldn't have Digger... Uh, Cinny. ;) BTW - she's getting her own sandbox this weekend!

Yes, it may be a band aid, but if it works for some people and some dogs, then great. I say whatever works and makes a happy cohesive family is good. I never said I liked the prong collar either, but I think it can be a useful tool.

Now, stop trying to defend yourself and give Reecie Pie & Lolly Pops a kiss for me! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/micki76/Avatars%20and%20others/Smilies/kissypoo.gif

aly

02-17-2005, 09:48 PM

Jessica, I didn't feel attacked by you and I wasn't offended by what you said so don't worry. I should have clarified my usage of 'cruel'. But sometimes I get carried away with typing, and although I reread my posts before submitting, I don't always catch what will be offensive.

The ONLY thing I am hurt and offended by in this thread is after repeatedly explaining myself and saying I was NOT calling anyone here cruel or uneducated, I was still being lashed out at and accused. Its like I was being called a liar. Since it was just one person saying that though, I'm willing to drop it.

My whole point in this thread is that while prong collars do work, there are much better methods to use.

Micki - I am SO picky about where my foster dogs go, so you'd never have Cinny if I didn't think you were a WONDERFUL doggy mom. I've seen first hand the luxurious life your dogs lead :) sorry about the digging, hope she's not causing TOO much trouble :o :o :o

LauraT7

02-17-2005, 11:19 PM

"My whole point in this thread is that while prong collars do work, there are much better methods to use. "

I think we would all agree with that - and I also think that everyone here who said they'd used one - has also said that they tried almost everything else first.

I also would agree that the 'be a tree' method, or 'turn and go the other way' idea works as well - I used it to very good results with my first two goldens - who I raised from puppies. But with some dogs, they just really don't care if something is pulling on their neck, and in my case, my bursitis in my shoulder and my back was so bad that I could not stand the strain of constant jerks on my shoulder and back to correct a puller who had '4 on the floor' to my two! the 'tree' or 'turn' still jerked my back more than it affected Tristan, who was totaly concentrated on some scent or some thing.

when my shoulder and back were bad - Tristan got NO walking - and my son was too lightweight to handle him either.

(not that Tristan would ever hurt anyone, he just had no idea what he was doing, and could have dragged himself and Jon into traffic or trouble)

I also think that anyone who posted here, only uses the prong collar AS NEEDED - not all the time, and they took the time to learn how to use it properly - meaning that it does not actually hurt or injure the dog. Certainly there isn't aperson on this board ( that I have seen so far) who would actually INTEND to hurt their precious pet! Every person who HAS used it, went to that solution only after trying multiple alternatives.

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Experience can be a great teacher....

I had to smile when someone above mentioned that they USED to think crates were cruel. I was one of those people who thought crates were cruel, back in the 80's when my first goldens, Toby and Tara, were puppies, and our trainer encouraged her classes to crate train. I thought, 'how horrible to put your furchild in a CAGE all day!"

I came home everyday at lunch to let my dogs out - at the time, we had a fairly good-sized eat-in kitchen, but no kitchen table and chairs - so it was an ideal place to baby-gate two puppies safely - or so i thought....

Until one day, I came home at lunchtime from work - to let them out - and found that my two golden pups (probably about 4 or 5 months old at the time) had
1 peed on their papers properly
2 chased and played in the kitchen, flipping the soiled papers all over the floor
3 bounced open the kitchen cabinets while playing
4 pulled every box of cereal, kleenex, papertowels and dry food out of the opened cabinets
and
5 - shredded and strewn it ALL over the entire kitchen - it was about knee deep in shredded paper, dry food and poopy paper!
(runny, after eating all that sweet cereal)

YUCH!

I let them out in the fenced yard to go while I tried to clean up the mess (dressed in heels and my bank uniform), when I glanced out the window in time to see Toby get stuck under the fence, trying to escape the yard! ( Toby's little butterball tummy was too fat, but his slimmer sister, Tara had squeeked through, first!)

I had to race out into the mucky, spring muddy backyard to catch my runaway pup - my heels kept sticking in the mud so I couldn't run and catch her - and I was terrified she'd get out in the busy road and hit by a car!

Eventually she came back to me, and I got both muddy, wet and tired puppies back in the house. My uniform was wrecked, my shoes were wrecked, and I was a wreck!

I promptly, and tearfully, called my husband, insisting -

"you'd BETTER stop by the pet shop on the way home and bring us two crates! NOW! before something serious happens to Toby and Tara - i just can't handle this!"

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Because i didn't use their crates for punishment - only for protection, they learned to LOVE being in their crates. Now, I would never have a dog who wasn't 'crate-trained' - even though all of my dogs generally have free run of the house all the time. it's so much better that they alredy are used toa crate in the security of home, so that it doesn't add to their discomfort when at the vets or groomers.

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Crates can be misused - I've known people who want to keep a dog in a crate all day while they are at work, have the dog out for a few hours at in the evening, and put the dog back into the crate whenever the dog gets in their way - such as at dinner time - and then they put the dog back in the crate all night - just because they don't want to train the dog how to behave within the family. What a miserable life for a dog! - but in that case, it isn't the CRATE that is cruel - it's the people using it incorrectly!

ANY training tool can be misused. the key is to make sure you are using the training tools correctly and in the best interests of the DOG.

Laura

aly

02-17-2005, 11:29 PM

I agree about the crates. I also thought it was cruel at first glance, but researched it and found it to be a great tool that has saved many dogs' lives. However, I really dont think the prong collars can be compared. I've researched those as well and still have not changed my mind. Also, if there are better alternatives, why not use them? The crate is a very positive method, where the prong collars are not.

cubby31682

02-24-2005, 09:54 AM

I am just reading this thread today.

Gracie only gets walked on her prong collar. As soon as we pull out the collar she starts bouncing, spinning and ready to go. She has to sit before we will even try to put it on her. As soon as it's on she becomes the perfect dog I always wanted. Lol. We can take her for a walk, which I keep a pocket full of treats when we take her. When she walks really good I pet her tell her she is a good girl and give her a treat. We took the prong collar off during a walk one time. HUGE mistake. She seen people, she thinks people were made to pet her at all times and play with her at all times as well. So we told her to sit and put it right back on again.

When we put it on her she holds her head up high and sniffs the air and not the ground. She stays right next to us and doesn't try to lead us at all. She watches us every few steps she looks up at my husband or me. Who ever has the leash is who she looks at.

When we take her to a pet store that is the first thing we put on her before we enter. She loves children and will run up to them and knock them over to lick them. That isn't something we need. A lot of people around here are afraid of Dobermans we are trying to show them how good they can be. While at the pet store with the prong collar on if some one wants to pet her she sits down and sticks her nose up to smell them. Where as before she would run up to them and force them to pet her.

She is a very stubbern dog in public. This is the one thing that has helped us. When we got her they gave us the prong collar and I was very against them, until they showed me how to use them. They let me feel the prongs, (I always thought they were sharp) they are dull and not hurtful unless used wrong.

She also has a nylon choke collar. Which she always wears. I didn't know that it was a choke collar until my brother pointed it out. It has a ring that you tighten, she minds well when you use that as well. So I will be trying to use that for her walks from now on.

I think I have said enough for now.

Denyce

02-24-2005, 12:11 PM

I am curious as to why if Gracie walks so well on the prong collar you are now willing to switch to a choke collar. Even knowing that choke collars can do more neck damage than prong collars. This isn't an attack I am just very curious. We use a martingale or modified choke or greyhound collar on Sequoia(our husky) but after reading this whole thread I am now considering a prong collar. Well I also have spoken with some people locally that I respect about the prongs and they recommend them. So I really am wondering about your change of attitude.

Denyce

Amber

02-24-2005, 07:24 PM

ouch. that looks like it hurts.

cubby31682

02-24-2005, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Denyce
I am curious as to why if Gracie walks so well on the prong collar you are now willing to switch to a choke collar. Even knowing that choke collars can do more neck damage than prong collars. This isn't an attack I am just very curious. We use a martingale or modified choke or greyhound collar on Sequoia(our husky) but after reading this whole thread I am now considering a prong collar. Well I also have spoken with some people locally that I respect about the prongs and they recommend them. So I really am wondering about your change of attitude.

Denyce

After thinking about my post all day and reading everything I read on choke collars today, I wont use her regular collar like that.

That was my orginal plan was to slowly switch her to her regual collar. Which also doubles as a choke collar. It is all nylon except the rings on it. I don't want her to have any damage to her neck at all. So I wont use it. I have learned a lot from this thread, and I have been doing a little bit more reading today.

I also did NOT feel as though you were attacking me. I understand you wanted to ask a question which you did. I hope I cleared things up a little bit. I am not always the best at getting my opinions out correctly. My mind and fingers don't work together to well. If I didn't clear things up please feel free to ask any more questions.