I'm steamed, but I could be wrong

[schteve_d]

Today I was walking my two off-leash in the same place I have for the last three years every day (open bush skidoo, quad and walking trails, well away from any houses, parks, etc.). My dogs sensed something before I saw it and ran up around a corner and suddenly there is screaming! I RUN around to see what's going on and there is a lady there with two big shephards (one white - beautiful dog actually) straining to hold them back. Anyway, I call Bud and Tash back and leash them, the whole time the lady is screaming at me to "turn around, get out of here NOW, my dogs are mean and I can't hold them, I can't control them!" So, I was a little irritated at this point but maintained my composure and told her very politely that alot of people use these trails and while I appreciate that you want to walk your dogs, if you can't hold/control them, you should either not walk them or muzzle them. I was about to suggest a "halty" for some control when she resumed her ranting, only this time adding a few expletives for spice. So, I held my tongue (I'm a sarcastic bastard and it was all I could do!) turned around and took a different path not too far back. Now I'm mildly concerned about walking there if she can't control her "mean" dogs but I have only seen her once in three years, so... I guess I don't really have a point but I don't think I was unreasonable, do you (if you disagree with me on the basis that my dogs were off-leash, I can accept that)?
Here's a pic I took today of where we walk (got a new digital camera!).

[moosmom]

Sorry, but you were wrong. You should've immediately put your dogs on the leash.

[wolfsoul]

I think it depends...if this was on offleash area, then it would be the lady's fault for walking her dogs in a place that she knew would have dogs running around offleash. But if it was a leash only area, then it would be your fault, for having your dogs offleash in the first place..

[schteve_d]

It's not really anything (off-leash or on-leash), it's literally miles and miles of open bush outside of city limits. The nearest town in that direction is 99 km.

[Glacier]

As the owner of an extremely dog aggressive dog, I'll chime in here. I can control Kayleigh just fine, but I can't guarentee that if a loose dog comes running up to her. So yup, I yell at the owner to control their dog. Around here if your dog isn't under voice control, it can't be off leash. If your dog continues to harass Kayleigh, I let the owner know that she's dog aggressive and if they don't control their dog NOW I am dropping her leash. I can not stand it when people respond with "oh, he's friendly, he just wants to say hi". Well, Kayleigh is a 120 pounds of wolf hybrid and she don't want to say hi! Given half a chance she'll do major damage to another dog.

Just to clarify--I would never actually drop the leash and let Kayleigh fight. In all likelihood, she's the dog who end up declared dangerous and be killed. Our local animal control by-law states that any dog involved in a fight can be declared dangerous, seized and euthanized. Kayleigh is not dangerous. She is not dangerous, she's just fussy about her doggy pals. A dog who approaches her appropriately, who doesn't challenge her and who is male, will likely not get her going. She's a doll with people and would never hurt even the smallest child.

I go to great lengths to protect Kayleigh from herself and to protect other dogs from her. I rarely walk her anywhere where we are likely to see other dogs. I recognize that Kayleigh is a special needs dog and I do my uptmost to meet those needs. It's one of my pet peeves when other dog owners can't be bothered to control their pets just because they are a little off the beaten track.

If your dogs were under voice control and immediately returned to you when you called them, then the other woman was in the wrong. If your dogs aren't under voice control, they shouldn't be off leash.

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by Glacier

If your dogs were under voice control and immediately returned to you when you called them, then the other woman was in the wrong. If your dogs aren't under voice control, they shouldn't be off leash.

I agree with this, and from your explaination, it sounds as if your dogs are under voice control.

I also agree, that if the woman can not control her aggressive dogs, she should either walk then in a manner she can control (with one at a time, or buy use of a halti, harness, prong collar,whatever). Okay, in reality, your dogs should not have run up to hers, but, the way she ordered you to turn around,even after your dogs were leashed (if I am reading your account correctly) it sounds as if her dogs at not realible to pass another animal on the path, whether they are leashed or not...and sheneeds to have at least that much control over the dog before she takes them in public.

[KYS]

posted by Glacier:As the owner of an extremely dog aggressive dog, I'll chime in here. >>>>>>>>>

I'll chime in too. :D
15 years ago, I rarely used
a leash with my dogs. (they were trained on voice command, were not aggressive and back then we did not have
strict leash or bite laws.
"TIMES HAVE CHANGED! (at least in my county)

I now own my first dog aggressive dog. :(
He is a love with people but...
My 118 pound Rocky (not as big as kayleigh) :)
is dog aggressive. (fear aggressive in
his case)
He is NEVER off leash.
I dread seeing loose dogs.
I have yelled/said I am sorry at owners to grab their dogs, that
my dog is not dog friendly.

Rocky will give fair warning he is not a happy camper
when he see's a strange dog and usually the owner
will grab their dog fast.
I would be sick if Rocky would hurt or be hurt by
a dog.

So I agree, unless your dogs are reliable on voice command
they should be on a leash.

I will say in my opinion the lady should not be walking 2 big aggressive dogs at the same time.
To easy to loose control even when leashed.
JMHO

[schteve_d]

I pretty much agree with everything said. My dogs are very much under voice control, my one mistake is having let them run up ahead but we don't usually run into anyone, and when we do it is almost always another friendly off-leash dog. The part that irritated me the most was that she was yelling at me to get away quickly as she "could not hold the dogs". That is putting her, me, her dogs and mine in a dangerous situation. The point that I was going to try and get at with her is that with a "halty" or something else, she WOULD be able to hold them very much minimizing the risk (granted, that may not have been the ideal time to discuss it with her!). From what she said (and in all fairness, in the heat of the moment - coulda done without the profanity mind you), she feels unable to hold the dogs even if my dogs had been on a leash, which they were by the time she said that.

[wolflady]

Hi schteve_d and welcome to Pet Talk! You have 2 adorable dogs there;)
My two cents is if the lady has "mean" dogs and "can't control them", then she shouldn't be out and about until she can control them. After all, the owner should always be in control. Luckily your dogs are well behaved and returned when you called them. She was way out of line with her attitude.

[senorita02]

Well since i have 2 very large aggresive breed dogs, i can say that i would never ever walk them together at the same time, each of my dogs weighs more than i do, and i imagine 2 large dogs together weighs more than most women, she should be walking them seperate and muzzled if they are that aggresive she cannot control them and has to warn others to run.
Also in my opinion i would never walk my dogs off leash, and they are voice controlled and very obedient, but they are still animals and i would never want to be responsible IF anything were to happen at all.
I guess i am saying i think she was wrong, and should go muzzle her dogs if there that aggresive.
Oh, and your dogs are gorgeous by the way!

[cali]

I own a dog frear aggressive dog as well, who by the way I walk off leash at all times. why on earth would I do that? quite simple, Happy attacks when she feels really uncomfortable, well she finds a leash to be a huge cause of stress, and is uncontrollable when she see's another dog and she is on a leash, but off leash, when I see another dog I simply pull to the side, and put her in a sit stay facing away from the other dog, works like a charm, and people take the hint that, just because their dog is friendly does not mean Happy is. out in the type of area you are describing we always let all of our dogs off leash to run, you really think a leashed walk is gonna satisfy them? lol, fat chance! Misty is allowed off leash only in open parks, in those cases I have full voice control over her as well, when people walk by Mistys hackles go up and she starts barking, she wont bite, she wont go more then 10 feet away from me lol and I alwasy tell people she wont bite, she is just warning me, and I call misty and put her in a down stay till they pass, she can do all the barking she wants while in the down stay lol in this case I think you obviously hade control of your dogs seeing as how they came to you when you called them away, but this lady obviously could not handle her dogs and should really find a way to control them.

[zippy-kat]

While I disagree with the lady walking two dogs she (potentially) couldn't control, it would be kinda scary to have two unknown (albeit friendly) dogs run up to you with no owner in site. How was she to know that they are/were friendly and so well-behaved?

God forbid something should escalate and the matter be taken to court, as -no matter how friendly the pups are- it might turn into a case of who was leashed, who wasn't. Regardless that her two are more aggressive, they might find you at fault. :(

Still, there's no need for the cursing and the rudeness and, if she couldn't handle both dogs, she should've went on two walkies.


~ :D Beautiful puppers! Welcome to Pet Talk! :D ~

[Wolffffman]

I agree with the point I think schteve is trying to make....not about leashed or unleashed but simply if you know your dogs are agressive or "mean" you shouldn't be walking them leashed or not if you can't physically control them.....she should at least have had them muzzled.

[KYS]

I think the woman panicked and her yelling only made her dogs more aggressive.
It was not a good situation her walking 2 big aggressive
dogs together.
If I am in a high traffic public
area with people walking their dogs, I
use a gentle leader with a choke on Rocky.
Works wonders. :)

In some circumstances,
I do not agree with muzzling a dog because
it is dog aggressive.
(People aggressive, yes! )

Even an aggressive leashed dog has
the right to defend itself if attacked
by an off leash dog.

Rocky has been attacked 2 times by off leash dogs.
The first time my arm took the bite for him. :(
2nd time we were waiting at the corner
to cross the street when a dog came out
of no where and bit Rocky in his mouth.
I kicked the dog/yelled at it.
He jumped over a fence back into it's yard.
(no wonder my poor dog has a bully phobia when it
comes to other dogs) :p

[Corinna]

I agree with wolflady she should noet walk "mean"dogs there knowing others are there especially if she can not control them. I too walk very occasonally of leash but if I know some one else is there I leash up. I have the benifit of lots of acres in the woods.

[Jods]

My dogs are voice controlled, but I bring a lead and if I see a person or another animal they get put on the lead. I also try to only bring them places where I won't see anyone else..
By the way it sounds, even if your dogs were on a lead the lady still wouldn't be able to control her dogs so they still could have attacked your dogs. People are so stupid. What if it was children and they weren't kid friendly would she be shouting Kids go away I can't hold them much longer RUN!! What a dummie :rolleyes:

[bckrazy]

Originally posted by cali
I own a dog frear aggressive dog as well, who by the way I walk off leash at all times. why on earth would I do that? quite simple, Happy attacks when she feels really uncomfortable, well she finds a leash to be a huge cause of stress, and is uncontrollable when she see's another dog and she is on a leash, but off leash, when I see another dog I simply pull to the side, and put her in a sit stay facing away from the other dog, works like a charm, and people take the hint that, just because their dog is friendly does not mean Happy is. out in the type of area you are describing we always let all of our dogs off leash to run, you really think a leashed walk is gonna satisfy them? lol, fat chance! Misty is allowed off leash only in open parks, in those cases I have full voice control over her as well, when people walk by Mistys hackles go up and she starts barking, she wont bite, she wont go more then 10 feet away from me lol and I alwasy tell people she wont bite, she is just warning me, and I call misty and put her in a down stay till they pass, she can do all the barking she wants while in the down stay lol

Actually, I'm sorry, but this doesn't seem safe at all. If she is fear agressive,she obviously shouldnt be off-leash... maybe on a long leash, but I dont think you realize how dangerous that is. Especially if you are walking anywhere NEAR cars, bikes, or other dogs. I personally have met several people whose Border Collies were killed by running in front of/next to a car trying to herd it. One lady was just practicing off-leash heeling in her quiet neighborhood, a mail truck passed by, and before she even knew it her VERY obedient dog was dead! He just saw the tires and ran right into it! BC's can sometimes not control their herding instinct.. it is extremely dangerous for them to be off-leash on walks. Maybe you should try solving the problem safely? I mean, even if she IS off leash,there are stupid dog owners and stupid kids that will run up to her regardless of what you say,and it seems like if she was off-leash and a dog ran up that it'd be more likely she would get in a fight without a leash to pull her away. You also shouldn't let your dog bark/snarl at people with their hackles up off leash and in a public place... that could easily turn into full-blown aggressive,since it seems like you just allow Misty to show agression towards people! You need a leash for her so you can correct her and keep her from scaring people...she could easily end up biting people,and being pts, and would that even be worth it? I *never* let Gonzo growl at anyone, unless they are really trying to harm or scare him/me... if people complain about it, your dog could be taken away easily.

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by bckrazy
if people complain about it, your dog could be taken away easily.
That's true here, too. If a person notices a dog that seems to be aggressive, and is offleash in public, dog control can take the dog away. I believe that after that it must be muzzled and leashed in public, and if problems occur again they can put the dog down.

[cali]

you dont know Happy, she is fear aggressive in a way that she will not actually attack another dog unless she is on leash, because on leash she feels like she cannot escape, she she pulls so hard to attack she will drag me along, of leash, however she is perfectly behaved, and feels safe, therefor will not attack, she will growl and snap, but she wont go within 15 feet of the other dog. by the way while some BCs do try to herd cars, Happy could not car less about herding anything but actual stock, and even then she looks to me for permission. I will explain better later lol but I have to get back to school

[Aspen and Misty]

(I am going by PA laws here) Had your dogs not run up to her dogs, had they been on a leash like the law states, had you had full and complete controlle over your dogs, maybe she would have been able to controlle her dogs. Maybe her dogs only go crazy when dogs who are off leash run up to them, get in there face, do circles, run fast by them etc. Dogs who are on leash are under controlle and can not get in her dogs face. I know that Nova is almost competly impossible to handle (she is not dog agressive) with dogs who are off leash but is controlleable when dogs are on leash. That is because off leash dogs run around her, they get in her face, they try to sniff her, they run quickly by her etc. This lady probably figured that people would be following the law and have there dogs on leash and that is why she took her dogs out for a walk.

I do not think the blame is in the women with the dogs, not at all. Had your dogs been on leash there most likly hwould have been a diffrent out come. If your dogs would have been on leash and the lady would not have been able to handle her dogs, then I would say she is in the wrong because you are following the law and she should not be walking her dos if she can't controlle them in a typical situation. However, you were the one braking the law, you were the one in the wrong.


Ashley

[cyber-sibes]

Nice looking dogs and a beautiful place to walk!
But I have to say, I think dogs being exercised in public places are best kept on leashes. I keep mine leshed all the time, and I've still had trouble with off-leash dogs.
My two were once attacked by a golden that came charging out of it's yard (one of my dogs was bit in the jaw and I filed a report).
Another time a guy let his yappy little terrier out and it wouldn't stop barking - we were clear across the street, but when it came half way across towards us, mine both lunged and I was dragged to the ground. The whole time this guy stood on his porch yelling at his dog, and just watched as I got dragged across a lawn to the edge of the street. When his dog got within biting range" of mine, he dashed over and grabbed it, never apologised or helped me back up or anything, jerk!
Even well trained dogs can decide not to listen.
If this woman can't control her dogs, she shouldn't be walking them in a public place.
When other dogs pass me, I often stop walking, wrap the leash up, and plant myself firmly so I can hold onto mine. (They are not aggressive, just jubilent and excitable!) I only have time to do this if the other dogs are leashed and I see them coming.

[cali]

almost forgot lol

ok, Happy is not a car herder, and she is not a chaser, she will look at critters or something on the street, and she iwll point them out to me but this is it. Misty however will go after them, which is why she is only off leash in a park, and never walked off leash. heck Misty is walked with a haltie and a tight leash, but in an open park she will not stray from me, and if she goes to close to the road she is called back, simple as that. I hardly allow her to show agression to people, she is not an aggressive dog, she just raises her hackles and barks, and Misty raising her hackles does not mean are darn thing, with most dogs it does, with Misty it does'nt, Misty raises her hackles in everything from play, to cuddles :rolleyes: she confuses me sometimes because of that lol as she is wagging her tal, big smile on her face prancing about, with her hackles raised, this is why I tell people not to worry and I call her back. if I kept them on leash at all times in public, my girls would not get any exersize. because for most BCs including my girls it would take at least an 8 hour on leash walk to get any energy out of them whatsoever. even if we had a dog park I could not go to one, because well there would be lots of other dogs, that exludes Happy now dont it? I am more intrested in Happy being safe and controllable off leash, then having a dog on leash that is so stressed her skin is flaking and half her hair is falling out, with her ears down, and tail tucked, and trying to attack any dog she see's. as far as I am concerned it is a lot more fair to walk her with her ears up, tail waggin, coat shiny and not falling out, and in my total control. if you still dont get what I mean, well you would just have to see her in both situations.