A comment on "What would you do if your child told you they were gay?"

[jonza]

I would just like to say to Chrangharris (and this applies to others too) that I think it is a pretty poor show starting threads that you know can get controversial, and then just deleting them because you don't like what some people think. Can't you tolerate other people having different opinions than your own? Why do you post in the first place?

It shows an incredible lack of respect for other people and their opinions. Or is it because you just can't handle the real world? It just seems from here like a very narrow minded approach to life.

I spent quite a bit of time this afternoon writing what I hoped would be a sensible reply to your post, and it just disappears. I have better things to do with my time.


For those who didn't see it, here is my reply to "What would you do if your child told you they were gay?":

I was walking down the street with my son, who was about 11 at the time, when he popped that question to me right out of the blue. "What would you think if I was homosexual?"

My first reaction was to laugh. Children do ask the most interesting questions sometimes don't they! The ones that make you REALLY have to think, and not just respond with a standard cliché.

Of course, I have a problem here, as I seem to be afflicted with a peculiar kind of blindness. I just cannot for the life of me see what difference people's sexual preferences makes. I can't see that it makes any difference whether someone is homosexual, heterosexual, Jew, Gentile, black, white, yellow, whatever, you name it. That is just not the way that I evaluate other people. I would prefer to differentiate according to their honesty, their willingness to help their fellows, their tolerance of other peoples customs, creeds, religions, sexuality etc. and their open mindedness and desire to understand things outside their normal experiences.

I also have a slight problem with the concept of it being sinful. I was brought up in a conservative, Christian home, though no expert on the bible. But surely if God created homosexuals they must be as acceptable as anyone else? (That is not an attack on religious beliefs by the way). According to the Bible we were all born with original sin weren't we? I find lying, cheating and corruption much more sinful than a sexual preference. There is also the question of the constant focus on the sexual relationships between homosexuals. Surely that, as in "straight" relationships, is only a small percentage of the relationship and a private matter for the individuals? Is genuinely loving someone of the same sex and living with them without sexual relationships acceptable then?

I don't believe for a minute that homosexuality is a choice, but whether it's genetic or not I don't know. That is the most logical conclusion. In cases where choice is perhaps involved, then I would imagine that it is based on an original latent tendency, probably exaggerated by pressure from hostile or intolerant prejudiced groups within the society.

At least homosexuals are in my limited experience normally tasteful people, seldom aggressive and arrogant, and that I can definitely respect. They can sometimes be pretty weird, but weirdness has never bothered me. I know a lot of very weird straight people too!


Of course, I told my son that that it would be quite alright with me if he turned out to be homosexual, it's his life and he must live it as he sees fit. Also that I would of course support him in any way possible if it gave him any problems, and that it would make no difference whatsoever to our relationship. I would still love him unconditionally.

I don't want to be insulting or mean, but then of course that just depends on our own personal definitions of what is insulting or mean. These are often culturally or nationally inspired. These are just my own personal opinions and views


This quote from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran sums it all up for me:

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, Speak to us of children.
And he said:
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you.
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls.
For their souls dwell in the house of to-morrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

[PayItForward]

I agree and I have PM'd asking Karen to un-delete the thread as when posters delete threads they are only soft not hard deleted.

I don't allow posters to delete an entire thread on my forum to prevent this kind of childish behaviour.

[dukedogsmom]

I thought your reply was very eloquent and in no way, insulting. That's basically what I said in my last reply right before it got deleted.
Instead of forcing those values on children, parents should be witnessing by not showing disgust and showing tolerance and compassion. Whomever feels it's such a horrible sin(everyone's definition of a horrible sin is different and yes, some justified, like murder) should be trying to understand why they feel that way and go from there. I just don't understand all this hostility. You'd think some of you would rather have a child that was a criminal than for them to like someone of the same sex. Meant to add that it's interesting that people start threads like this and then get upset when they don't get the answers they wanted to hear.

[Randi]

In my opinion it should only be possible to delete ones own posts, not an entire thread - even if you do feel you have screwed up! Show a bit of respect for other people!

If any of you want it, I can send you the entire thread, just PM me your e-mail address. :D

[catnapper]

I agree... I feel that this is the DOGHOUSE, and if you start a discussion, be prepared for a few sparks to fly. Espcially on something as controversial as homosexuality. The discussion in question was civil, nobody was being excessively rude, as is the case in many threads here in the doghouse. There have been many threads that spun out of control and civility went out the window... and those threads were not deleted. Yet the thread that was interesting and enlightening was deleted.

Jonza, I thought your response was well thought out and well said.

[micki76]

Originally posted by jonza
I would just like to say to Chrangharris (and this applies to others too) that I think it is a pretty poor show starting threads that you know can get controversial, and then just deleting them because you don't like what some people think. Can't you tolerate other people having different opinions than your own? Why do you post in the first place?

It shows an incredible lack of respect for other people and their opinions. Or is it because you just can't handle the real world? It just seems from here like a very narrow minded approach to life.[/i]

I agree 100%.

I started one thread a while back and started out saying that if it got nasty (not a good, civil, & informative debate) that I would delete it. I was asking some religious questions and the last thing I wanted was a sermon, or someone telling me I would burn in hell for my beliefs. Fortunately, that thread stayed very enlightening, (with a lot of different viewpoints, many different from my own) and I really discovered a lot about myself. :)

I guess I'm a little more flexible and tolerant than some people are, but to each his own. That's what makes the world go 'round.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by catnapper
IThere have been many threads that spun out of control and civility went out the window... and those threads were not deleted. Yet the thread that was interesting and enlightening was deleted.

I *think* Karen might be able to bring the thread back but we'll have to wait and see.

But in the meantime here is most of the thread though a couple of posts from Catoholic & Carole & me are missing...where it says missing threads. If anyone has them email me at [email protected] ;) (I hate incomplete files)

Hopeful the real thread will be back soon but if not this is second best.

http://www.piftails.com/gay.html

[dukedogsmom]

How's you do that? That's cool!

[Fox-Gal]

I'm very disappointed she deleted it. It took a lot for some of us to state their views. For others they opened up a little part of their own world, for it to be tossed away so lightly, is a shame.

We all took the time to answer her thread with great thought and in my case with great pride in a child I raised. I felt that we all handled ourself very well, with our different views, trying not to cross that line to much, for it to be tossed in the garbage, is upsetting.


It shows an incredible lack of respect for other people and their opinions.

Agree 100%

[Tonya]

I like what you said, Jonza. I couldn't agree more.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
How's you do that? That's cool!
I saved some of the posts and I got some help on the rest and copy and pasted it (minus signatures as they take up too more space) to a web page and uploaded to my own server ;)

Shame there still is gaps.

I agree that deleting threads is disrespectful to other posters, hopefull this can be prevented in the future.

[Tonya]

Originally posted by PayItForward
I agree that deleting threads is disrespectful to other posters, hopefull this can be prevented in the future.

I missed what happened, so I can't really judge. But I have been ticked off before by people who made a thread and then deleted it because they didn't like the responses. It is very close minded. It's like they made the thread only to gain agreement.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by Tonya
I missed what happened, so I can't really judge. But I have been ticked off before by people who made a thread and then deleted it because they didn't like the responses. It is very close minded. It's like they made the thread only to gain agreement.
Read this page http://www.piftails.com/gay.html

[Twisterdog]

This quote from "The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran sums it all up for me:

Wow, that's a great quote. I love that.


And since I missed the original thread, apparently, I'll answer the question, "What would you do if your child told you they were gay?" I would thank him for trusting and respecting me enough to be honest and open with me, and tell him that I'm always here for him if he needs to talk. The same thing I would do with any serious topic he brought up with me.

[Barbara]

I think all the discussion was in the original thread was made in a very civilized way. John I am especially glad you saved your original post as I loved its content as well as its style.:)

[Maya & Inka's mommy]

Oh my, so much commotion about this....!
I do agree with Jonza all the way though!!

[ramanth]

Jon, that's a great quote! Thanks for posting and thank you PIF for the saved files. I didn't get to read any of the thread as I posted right before I left for home.

[Cataholic]

I will try to recreate what I posted....from memory.

I am so glad I came from a LOVING and CHRISTIAN home, where tolerance and acceptance, and non judgmental attitudes were the NORM.

I cannot believe the crud that comes from the Godli people amongst us...those that are spewing the religous right are so very often the least Christlike that I have ever witnessed. I thought the Christians were supposed to live by example, and not stir up such garbage! The truly Christian people that I know go out of their WAY to live/teach the Word-not be the pot-stirrers that some people on here are.

If YOU are what a Christian is, then, I run, not walk, away from you, your message, your church, your belief system. Is that your point? Isn't your point to portray Christianity in the best possible light? With love? With Grace? By showing your true ignorance, narrowmindedness and intolerance for those different from yourself, you do YOUR faith such a disservice.

Do you wake up in the morning and think, "Okay. Now, how will I get people going today, all in the name of Christianity"? Does it come naturally to you? OR, does it require conscious pettiness and malice?

You time and again start crud. Cry religion, and then run away. I presume you are running to church, praying at the alter for forgiveness. Or, are you telling your preacher/pastor/priest all the lovliness you started today?

Religion? Christlike? I think not.

[dukedogsmom]

Can we have an AMEN?

[kimlovescats]

Christians are not perfect, and we do not proclaim to be so. We are taught to try and be as much Christ-like as possible. In order to not get riled up and behave something other than like God would have us do, we sometimes turn the other cheek!;)

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by kimlovescats
Christians are not perfect, and we do not proclaim to be so. We are taught to try and be as much Christ-like as possible. In order to not get riled up and behave something other than like God would have us do, we sometimes turn the other cheek!;)


Just so that I am clear- I do not base any of my comments towards you, Kim. As I stated in the other thread, I do NOT see you acting unChristian, ever(that I can remember, at least). Turning the other cheek is NOT what this person did. This person STARTED it...STARTED it...STARTED it. This person STARTS it ALL the time! A little less preachin' it and a little more livin' it should be her motto.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I get very frustrated with the "choose to be gay" line of thought.

At some point in my life I wondered if I could be gay....no particular reason...just wondered. So I thought about it...and I couldn't figure out how "IT" would be done. (Thanks...but no one needs to explain it to me....) I decided if I was gay I wouldn't have to think about it...I would feel it.... I have felt sexual attraction to men but never to women so how could I just turn it on one day???? It makes no sense to me.

I can understand that, if you choose to believe literally in every word in the Bible, that you MUST believe that homosexuality is a choice. How else to explain it? God doesn't mistakes so if God made homosexuality it can't be wrong. So it has to be a choice in order for it to be a sin.

If it is such a big deal...why didn't it make the Ten Commandments? And...other than Bibically....what's wrong with it? Two consenting adults making each other happy....and that is a sin...:confused: :confused: :confused:

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary

If it is such a big deal...why didn't it make the Ten Commandments? And...other than Bibically....what's wrong with it? Two consenting adults making each other happy....and that is a sin...:confused: :confused: :confused:

Actually it did make the Ten Commandments ... it falls under Adultery! ;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Not if you allow them to marry!:D

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Not if you allow them to marry!:D

:p

[star of light]

well i have to agree. i dont really think it matter if you homosexual but some of them are treated like they are outsiders of this world. i feel sorry for them but they dont let it get to them so i give them props to that:D . i am a christian and my religion thinks that man should be with woman and woman should be with man, but i dont really care even if my parents think with the religion. i respect people for the desion they have made who to love, even if a man chosses to love a man or if a woman chosses to love a woman, or if a man or woman chosses to love both sexes. i think that sometimes people care too much about who is gay, lesbian, or homosexual, but i just let people have the right to choos what sex to love.

(this post has been written in a nice matter and sorry if it sounds mean. i am hopeing that one one will over react to the post i have made)

[sirrahbed]

Most of you know that Chris is my daughter and so I am trying not to be too personal about this, but that is a bit difficult.

However, some of you are judging and criticising her mercilessly. You do not know her. I also wish the thread had not been deleted but she did say at the very beginning, that she would do so if the thread became anything but discussion of the ways to relate as a parent. Naive? - maybe. Her reasons for deleting it - some folks are simply assuming that she did so because "people did not agree with her". She is being discussed in a personal manner and in an angry, superior tone. I am sure you know the old adage that when you assume, you put an ass between u and me. That is what is happening here.

I also wish the thread remained because it could then stand as a witness that the accusations of nastiness from Christians are false. The Christian viewpoints, mine included were not condemning or nasty. We are sinners as well and grieved at the condition of the world. We are trying to raise our children correctly and no mother I am aware of said anything about not continuing to love their homosexual child. It is unfair to suggest that our homes are not LOVING and CHRISTIAN. To suggest that we represent true ignorance, narrowmindedness and intolerance is simply not true. That is what folks said about Christ also. Hearing the truth hurts. But no Christian comment I am aware of was anything but a statement of faith. God Himself said that His name would always be spoken against so it is not surprising really - but we are not mean spirited people out to hurt anyone. There may be Christians like that - we are all sinners and fail terribly. In the end, we all have to face God and HE is the one who will judge. If a person believes in the Bible as I do - face the fact that God's Word IS pretty narrow minded when it comes to sin, but we continue to love, even if that love hurts. Christ was vilified and killed for showing His love, too.

I have been deeply hurt by Christians myself. I have been deeply hurt by unbelievers. We are all people and all sinful.

I wish many of you would stop bashing Chris. If you knew her, knew about our family - you would probably like us. I know we are loving and accepting of anyone - but our convictions will never be compromised, ever. Still by our actions, we show love.

Enough from me.

[star of light]

yes we are all sinners but where is everyone getting that christians arent sinners???:confused: :confused: /???

the only people who arent sinners are God and Jesus.

i am soo confused that people think that christans arent sinners???

[GraciesMommy]

Well said, Sirrahbed...I am not condemning either side for their views and I read all the comments from the get go but chose to stay out of it.(at that time) .but I think that bashing either person is just not right..let it go..
I think it got out of hand...and I don't think that was anyone's intention

I am a Christian..better yet..a Christ Follower...I attend a Baptist Church but don't agree with the whole doctrine of ANY church..I am far from perfect..never will be til I am in a Christlike body and that is when I stop breathing...
It is not my place to judge what is right or wrong..its God's..I know how I feel about certain issue...what is right or wrong for ME..I am only accountable for ME.
I do know that if my son or daughter were to come to me with that particular issue I would love them regardless...I have unconditional love for both of them. They have both made many many choices/decisions/or have personality traits they were born with that do not make me happy, but I love them...period...and always will..

I don't think any one "started" this for a fight..I think it was a question that they felt was a good topic for an adult discussion..probably knew it would/could get heated but didn't realize it would touch off some hurt feelings or I don't think they would have ever posted it.

[catcrazylady]

GraciesMommy...Very well said! I could not have said it any better!
The original thread became "personal" and that is where things started going wrong. It was becoming an attack instead of a debate or opinion sharing. People want respect for their opinions and yet don't want to give the same to others. That is what pulled me into the DogHouse. Now will someone please tell me how to get out!!!;) :D :D

[RICHARD]

Pentagon's gay weapon

US military chiefs are said to have considered developing an 'aphrodisiac' chemical weapon that would make enemy troops sexually irresistible to each other.

The Sunshine Project, which exposes research into chemical and biological weapons, revealed the plans, according to New Scientist.

Provoking widespread homosexual behaviour among troops would cause a "distasteful but completely non-lethal" blow to morale, the proposal says.

Other ideas included chemical weapons that attract swarms of enraged wasps or angry rats to troop positions, making them uninhabitable.

Another was to develop a chemical that caused 'severe and lasting halitosis', to identify guerrillas trying to blend in with civilians. There was also an idea to make troops' skin unbearably sensitive to sunlight.

The proposals, from the US Air Force Wright Laboratory in Dayton, Ohio, apparently date from 1994.

The lab sought Pentagon funding for research into what it called "harassing, annoying and 'bad guy'-identifying chemicals".

Sunshine Project spokesman Edward Hammond said it was not known if the proposed six-year research plan was pursued.

----------------------------------

This is my rifle, this is my gun,
one is for fighting, one is for fun.........


Or

You are my sunshine, my only sunshine.....
you make me happy...........

[Fox-Gal]

Originally posted by GraciesMommy

I don't think any one "started" this for a fight..I think it was a question that they felt was a good topic for an adult discussion..probably knew it would/could get heated but didn't realize it would touch off some hurt feelings or I don't think they would have ever posted it.

True, No fight was ever intended.

All I can say for me, is I didn't see the thread turning into some big fight, sure maybe it got a little side track from the original question, but what conversation doesn't. So I didn't feel it was worthily of a deletions. And I have to say that after reading through the thread, I total forgot that she said she might delete it, you get so involved in the main issues that you somethings forget other things.

As for the lack of respect for other people and their opinions, comment. This is how I look at it.

If you where sitting around having a chat with a friend or family member, about something that was important to you and they brushed your words off as if they meant nothing. How would you feel? I know it would hurt and disappoint me and I would consider it a lack of respect. So I look at any thread that way too. I guess this is the reason I'm not fond of the idea that you can delete a thread at any time.

I'm use to most other forums where you only have so long to delete, as long as no one has posted on it. Just as in life when you put your words out there, they are out, and there is no deleting them. Makes you have to think before you speak and maybe that's not a bad idea even in a forum.

So sorry if any one got hurt in all this mess.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
Most of you know that Chris is my daughter and so I am trying not to be too personal about this, but that is a bit difficult.

I wish many of you would stop bashing Chris. If you knew her, knew about our family - you would probably like us. I know we are loving and accepting of anyone - but our convictions will never be compromised, ever. Still by our actions, we show love.

Enough from me.


Debbie,
I believe you said similar commentary when Devon (your d-i-l, if I am not mistaken) also posted some imflammatory topic. While I imagine it would be VERY hard to not get upset when a family member is 'attacked' (though I see it differently), I have to ask: where is the "loving action" that comes from posting such topics, and ones overly righteous views on it? I didn't see one ounce of 'love and acceptance' in her posts. I saw hate, bigotry and smallmindedness. She STARTED the thread! She wasn't inadvertantly dragged into it. She STARTED it. Maybe religious convictions would be better fodder for another type of website? Maybe?

[RICHARD]

This is one question that has puzzled me for a while.

No offense meant to anyone posting, your religious views or your opinions concerning homosexuality.

If you follow religion "A", which has no tolerance for gays,

And a person who follows religion "B" is a homosexual-isn't it up to religion B's God to pass judgement on that person?

I always thought it's really weird that religion A's straight people have a problem with the gays from religion B....

But then again, religion B doesn't like religion A's gay people and
Religion C, D and E also have something to say about the OTHER guys gay people.


What happened before we got that "Old Tyme Organized Religion"??

-----------------------------------

I worked with a gay guy who was one of the funniest people I had ever met. He was very open about his 'orientation'-funny thing about that word-it makes me think about a compass.

Orientation merely states your direction. It's the needle/pointer that REALLY counts, without the pointer you just have a dial with four directions printed on it.

Anyway, this guy was always upset with himself for being gay.
He hated himself for it.

The day he died (ARC) was the day the San Francisco earthquake hit.

I have always wondered if there was some kind of connection there....:confused:

-----------------------------------------

The thing that was the biggest 'sin' in my eyes was the way that most of the people treated him when he got sick. People would stand in the doorway and throw papers on his desk-they were afraid of catching "the AIDS", they would avoid contact with him and would carry any paperwork he generated between their thumbs and forefingers.

Those people were the ones that cried the loudest and longest at the memorial.

--------------------------------------------

Most liasions happen in the dark between two consenting adults.

Problems crop up when the light in the room goes on.

I lay the blame at the feet of science-


And Thomas Edison.

:mad: ;)

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
Her reasons for deleting it - some folks are simply assuming that she did so because "people did not agree with her". She is being discussed in a personal manner and in an angry, superior tone. I am sure you know the old adage that when you assume, you put an ass between u and me. That is what is happening here
I am also being talked about in an angry, superior tone and people are assuming things about me wrongly but I won’t be deleting the threads as I am a strong moral person who believes it is everyone’s right to have an opinion …for right or wrong…about me or anyone else.

-------------------------------

Originally posted by PayItForward
Chrang threw her dummy out of her pram when people who didn't agree with her posted on her nice anti-gay christain post
[i]Originally posted by kimlovescats NASTY as usual, PIF!!!:rolleyes:
See my above comment, you are assuming malice where there is none. The smilie at the end of the comment shows I am making a joke, as I find it very amusing when people delete threads when people disagree with them.

The ‘dummy comment’ is English slang which is commonly used in reference to adults who behave in a childish way and deleting a thread for no good reason is childish.

I am interested in the ‘as usual’ part of your comment did I disagree with someone else recently ? This is a genuine question.

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Totally uncalled for PIF!!!
Please see my above comment to Kim.
-------------------------------


Originally posted by catcrazylady
The original thread became "personal" and that is where things started going wrong. It was becoming an attack instead of a debate or opinion sharing. People want respect for their opinions and yet don't want to give the same to others.
This again is assumption, I did not post any attack or get personal at any point, I was enjoying the debate until the thread was deleted.
Like I said to Kim you are assuming malice when I am only disagreeing with some one else’s opinion. I didn’t write it with malice, hence there is none.

The only personal attack on the post came from Catoholic and that was aimed more at ‘Christians who condemn gays’ than a particular person. Shame it was lost as it was a post straight from her heart, an avid Christian herself may I add.
-------------------------------




Originally posted by PayItForward
This is why my forum doesn't allow posters to delete entire thread it prevents posters deleting threads for no reason other than people not agreeing with the original poster.
I got two separate comments about this post

Originally posted by kimlovescats
Then my question is ... why don't you stay on your own forum PIF, instead always coming to PT and getting something started?:confused:
I am also confused, owning your own forum does not exclude a member from posting on Pet Talk, as there are dozens of posters with their own forums.

I actually posted this comment to tell the people who are getting fed up with people deleting entire threads, that a solution is possible on this forum.

I run the same software and that is why amendments I make to my site can also be made to this site. I am being pragmatic and offering a solution to a problem, which upset several people.

I have also PM Karen with the actual settings to be altered to only allow people to delete their own posts not the entire thread. Karen & Paul are thinking about applying this amendment, I hope they do.


Originally posted by catcrazylady
Too many statements going on here about what you allow and what you don't allow on your website. This is NOT your website, live by the rules or move on. I understand that you are upset that the original thread got deleted and that is your right but these kinds of statements are just plain nasty and no longer express an opinion. Weather you agree/disagree with any statement made by anyone on this board is your right and that is what keeps the Dog House interesting but personal attacks and slams against this website are uncalled for!
Please see the above comments made to Kim.
-------------------------------


Originally posted by kimlovescats
I know that she didn't start the original thread, but unfortunately she has a long history of being rude here on PT and I for one have had ENOUGH of it!:rolleyes:
Another wrong assumation, I have a long history of stating my opinion which is often polar to other people opinions. People have been far ruder to and about me and on occasions have actually lied about me, than I ever have been to others. Unless your definition of rudeness is disagreeing with people, I do not have a history of being rude.
-------------------------------


Originally posted by kimlovescats
OK, wait a minute ... I have to post this. I have now seen with my own two eyes, the post in question. Chris posted very nicely and calmly and then PIF started the rudeness and name-calling!
That is your opinion, I believe Chris started the name calling by writing :=

I think acting out on a person's gay/lesbian desires is sinful.

Hopefully, they will make wise decisions based on the values and Biblical beliefs Bryan and I raised them with. I would not agree with their decision to be gay or be in a gay relationshipBeing gay if not going against the bible or having an unwise decision or indeed a decision in many cases.
… that being gay was the same as
To me that would be the same as them wanting to do drugs, drink,.

I posted my opinion and asked two questions, which have not been answered to date. I did not name call anyone, if you have to revert to calling names rather than putting your opinion forward, you have already lost the debate, that is why I don’t do it.

-------------------------------


Originally posted by Cataholic
Thanks, Micki Mouse. BUT, what I just don't get is why the blasting doesn't get pointed at the source. PIF didn't stir this up...
Thank you to you Cataholic and all the others who PM’d or emailed support to me on this matter.
-------------------------------

Just on Christianity, this part of my post is not aimed at anyone, these are my own personal views on religion.

I was a full member of the Church of England, both baptised and confirmed and very devoted as a young adult, until I was told that gays, blacks and others were not welcome at church. So I decided that such a bigoted church was not part on a true Christian path.

I honestly don’t know what I feel religion wise these days though some times I read my grandma’s bible and yet other days I don’t even think God ever existed, when I see the hate in the world.

But one thing I know to be true that accepting others for who they are no matter what without judgement is such an important part of living as a true Christian.

Going to church does not make a good Christian, neither does saying or thinking you are a Christian or reading the bible.

To be a true Christian, you have to live as the best person you can be, loving and helping your fellow man (and women), be they a drug crazed single mother, a professional gay couple, a Christian person.

Every person on this earth deserves compassion not judgement.

Anything less is not Christian (in my eyes)

[jonza]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
… However, some of you are judging and criticising her mercilessly. You do not know her.
… some folks are simply assuming that she did so because "people did not agree with her". She is being discussed in a personal manner and in an angry, superior tone.
… It is unfair to suggest that our homes are not LOVING and CHRISTIAN. To suggest that we represent true ignorance, narrowmindedness and intolerance is simply not true.
… If you knew her, knew about our family - you would probably like us.

I must admit that I agree with all that. It's always sad when a sensible discussion seems to get side-tracked and bitterness and misunderstandings rear their ugly heads.
The tragedy of it is, that if we all sat round and discussed this over a nice meal, we'd probably all get on as right as rain, and have much more respect for each other!

I don't intend to be mean or spiteful when I post, but I have been brought up in an environment where free speech was a basic human right, and differing opinions didn't necessarily lead to conflict and dissension. We must remember that this is an international forum and everybody has the right to state any opinion they want to as long as they keep it civil.

I can quite easily enjoy a discussion in which I am proved wrong, I don't feel embarrassed or inferior at all. In this way I can learn something new. If the discussion gets bogged down and nobody will move from their position, then I just move on. No problem. But I think it's a mistake to close your mind or, as in this case, just delete an unpleasant thread. This often results in what has happened here, a lot of misunderstanding and aggressive bickering.

I am not anti-Christian, and I'm not anti-Muslim, we all have the right to our own faith, there's an awful lot of good in both of them. What I have great difficulty with is extremism, where there is only one truth, and that one truth is the belief of the particular individual or group of people in question. This applies in politics too. I also have great problems with the way that books purporting to be the true and only words of God can be interpreted in a fashion that happens to suit the reader(s). Isn't it due to differing (and extreme) interpretations of the Koran that we have such a gigantic problem with Islamic terrorism nowadays? Fundamentalist Christians shouldn't fall into the same trap, as they appear to be doing in America at the moment. Haven't we learnt anything from the Crusades and the Inquisition and other persecutions and exploitations by the church after all this time?

I think this thread has epitomized the problem of discussing sensitive issues on the web. I find it a peculiar format to try and communicate in, you think you know the person but you don't really know them. As I've said before, I would much prefer to have more information about who I'm talking to, their age, nationality, religious beliefs etc. all help. This make it much easier for me to get something productive out of a discussion, and there's less chance of involuntary misunderstandings or offense.

But - it irritates me when I am asked for an opinion, spend time and thought on a reply, and then it is just deleted. That was the reason for my response with this thread. So please do me a favour, don't delete my posts without asking first, my tolerance level falls sharply and I can get a bit uppity! :rolleyes:

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Debbie,
I believe you said similar commentary when Devon (your d-i-l, if I am not mistaken) also posted some imflammatory topic. While I imagine it would be VERY hard to not get upset when a family member is 'attacked' (though I see it differently), I have to ask: where is the "loving action" that comes from posting such topics, and ones overly righteous views on it? I didn't see one ounce of 'love and acceptance' in her posts. I saw hate, bigotry and smallmindedness. She STARTED the thread! She wasn't inadvertantly dragged into it. She STARTED it. Maybe religious convictions would be better fodder for another type of website? Maybe?


I'm so glad we're getting married.

Dittttoo, diiiittoo, diiiitttttoo!!!

[moosmom]

Okay..well here's my reply AGAIN!!!

Beause I love my daughter unconditionally, I'd stand by her. Everyone has to live their lives the way THEY want to, not the way others believe they should.

[lizzielou742]

Well, I didn't see the original thread, so I'll stay out of all that nonsense. ;)

If my son or daughter said they were gay, I'd say, "OK. No problem." I was brought up the child of two hippies, and I was raised to be very accepting and loving of all people and their choices in life. I believe we're all just people, and no matter who my son or daughter chooses to love, I'll still love and support my son or daughter. I'm not saying I'd be a completely relaxed parent on all fronts - my kids won't be allowed to smoke or get tattoos or date people twice their age, because I wasn't allowed to do stuff like that, either.

My parents are now "old hippies," by the way, and tons of fun. :D I agree 100% with the way they raised me. They chose to let me choose my own religion, if I wanted, when I was an adult, instead of "choosing it for me," as they put it. My dad was raised Protestant, and is now Buddhist. My mom was raised Greek Orthodox and is now Methodist. :) I haven't found a religion yet that pleases me.

[carole]

I personally love a good discussion and debate, but I believe these type of threads are just better not started, we have had them before and I am sick of them, because one knows that someone is going to get hurt bigtime, honestly If I were gay, I would be so angry and upset.

Sure everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some topics are just best left alone, either on this website or another, even though I did contribute to the thread, I wished I hadn't. it saddens me to read such stuff.

I have the utmost respect for both Kim and Jenny, and it is very hard to read what I have.

I actually felt relieved it had been deleted, because I knew it was turning real nasty, how could it not, it is such a controversal subject, ah well JMO.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Debbie,
I believe you said similar commentary when Devon (your d-i-l, if I am not mistaken) also posted some imflammatory topic. While I imagine it would be VERY hard to not get upset when a family member is 'attacked' (though I see it differently), I have to ask: where is the "loving action" that comes from posting such topics, and ones overly righteous views on it? I didn't see one ounce of 'love and acceptance' in her posts. I saw hate, bigotry and smallmindedness. She STARTED the thread! She wasn't inadvertantly dragged into it. She STARTED it. Maybe religious convictions would be better fodder for another type of website? Maybe?


^ ^ ^
Ditto! I can't remember who...but I think it was Devon who threw some really nasty comments at me when I posted a response in here that didn't even have an opinion in it! Then, when people stuck up for me, she just deleted the nasty comment and the bit about "No wonder I have you on ignore" and went on as if nothing happened.

It seems to me that this thread went very well until someone took Sirrahbed's response WAY out of context and started getting angry preemptively. (I felt that it was a very well written expression of an opinion that was different from most on here, NOT rude or inflammatory in any way.)

Don't you think some of us are being a little bit hypocritical? We sit here and accuse the more conservative among us of starting problems because our opinions were different, and yet....WE WERE THE MAJORITY. When one person posted a conservative biew, one of "us" liberals jumped down their throat and a bunch of others jumped on the bandwagon. Does this seem absurd to anyone else?!

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary

If it is such a big deal...why didn't it make the Ten Commandments? And...other than Bibically....what's wrong with it? Two consenting adults making each other happy....and that is a sin...:confused: :confused: :confused:

So there are only ten sins in the world?

In God's eyes every sin is equal... there are so many thing in the Bible that are talked about that are abominations toward Him.. just because they are not listed in the ten commandments does not mean God is accepting of them.

Some people may not think coveting your neighbor's things would be a big deal and it is a commandment...

[lbaker]

... and my invisible god is better than your invisible god :rolleyes: nah nah nah ;)

[ramanth]

I think the gods are laughing at us. :)

[jonza]

Perhaps a certain Mr Bush's attitude towards homosexuals has something to do with this apparently increasingly negative attitude towards Christians? :confused:

His insistence on mixing up his church with his politics in order to acquire more power has made an awful lot of people much more suspicious of the motives of the church in our (Western) societies. This is definitely true in Europe at least. We just do not need any more "Crusades". It's like putting the clock back a thousand years. :mad:

It's all very sad and rather stupid in the long run.

Just another example of a disastrous misconception by a short-sighted politician.


… Oh well, he and his hawks in the White House will presumably be going to war with Iran soon, so we can look forward to more thrilling news on our TV channels, watching innocent people suffer and die.
That would probably produce some more interestingly "controversial" opinions on our cosy little forum!

[micki76]

Bush has nothing to do with my views on Christianity or Christians at all. It's more from my own personal negative experiences.

[Jods]

I was and am I guess brought up Catholic. My Father is Catholic and my mom is not. I was put in a catholic school because the schooling was better, it was the only school close to my house and my parents choose that school. When I was 6 or 7 the priest went to my parents and said that if I was not Catholic I would be kicked out of the school. Even though to this day I can still name people who weren't catholic at the school. So I was MADE catholic. I do believe in a God, but I question a lot of things I was taught. Not saying they aren't true just that I questioned them. I was frowned upon for questioning them. I guess were supposed to just believe and shut up. Once a month we were forced to go to a school mass and we'd also once in a while have to go to confession. I did it and shut up. I always wondered about confession we'd go tell a priest our sins and he'd tell us to say a certain amount of Hail Marys or Our Fathers. Whenever I said a whole list of sins I'd only get a few prayers if I said hardly any sins I'd get a whole whack. Why??
To this day I don't know what I believe, and for that I'd be kicked out of my religion I guess. Why can't I think for myself?? If my child came to me and told me they were gay I would yes be shocked, but I wouldn't condemn them, tell them they were a sinner and make them feel like crap. I would accept it and move on. Is it really that big a deal? I don't think I could ever be gay, but who says I'm right and they are wrong. Everyone can live their life to the fullest the way THEY choose and I'll live mine the way I choose.

edit: Wanted to add I have no harsh feelings towards anyone for anything they choose to believe.

[Christiansmommy]

I have to agree with Carole, i sometimes wish that these threads were never started.

Undoubtedly, there will be arguments, when something as controversial as this topic is brought up. We have a hugely diverse group of people here at Pettalk, with very differing views on religious topics, political topics, etc. Luckily, we pretty much all agree on one thing and that is loving animals, and caring for them and sharing our stories with one another. I do wish, at times, that Pettalk could go back to how it was before the Dog House was started. The Dog House seems to become so over whelming at times, and just gets in the way of this Animal Based Forum that Pettalk initially used to to thrive on...pets and pet stories...it makes that part of it get pushed aside....

Lets face the facts, yes we do have freedom of speech, and that is kinda why the Dog House was added to this forum, but somethings, we, as a community, are NEVER going to agree on, or be able to discuss without someone's feelings getting involved...you learn things about people that you wish you never knew about people, when the nastiness takes over in the Dog House...i just hate to see discord...

Granted, you do have the option to never read/take part in, the Dog House to begin with...

Anyway, i did not read any of the original thread, but i hope that anyone who got feelings hurt, from it, can just feel comfortable enough, again, to post back in the animal sections of this website, and leave this section alone, b/c, it really, is more trouble that it is worth, IMHO. ((((HUGS))) everyone.

Robyn

[Christiansmommy]

BTW, i am a born again Christian, and I have had several gay friends, and one of my cousins is gay. Would I ever show hatred toward these people? Never!! Some of my gay friends were some of the nicest people I knew...do i agree with their lifestyle, no, i don't...period. But i would not disown a child or friend for being gay. ..and i think that answers the original question to the thread.

[nibblets]

I have to say that I read only the topic and I have not read any of the comments yet.

If my son came to me and told me was gay....I would tell him I love him and i would support him completely. I would be more devastated if my son came home and told me he was in a gang or if I found out that my son was drinking heavily or abusing drugs.

I have had many gay friends and aquaintances over the years and I truly feel that if I had 'shunned' them because of their sexual orientation I would have cheated myself out of knowing some remarkable people.

My belief is that God intended for us to be compassionate, tolerant and understanding with our fellow humans. Something there is way to little of in our world. I am much more worried by those who carry guns and are not of stabile mind and temperment. I would be worried that those who are full of homophobia and hate in their hearts towards gays that my son's life may be threatened because of it...but not the news of him being gay.

Now I'll go read the rest of the thread and see where my opinion falls into the mix.

[nibblets]

after reading the thread...

I agree a lot with what Jonza was saying.

I understand that many people have strong religious beliefs about the subject. I work with an extremely devout Catholic...and I know that he feels very very strongly on certain subjects. I do not agree with his beliefs...and I don't expect him to agree with mine. We get along fine...even though he is certain that myself and several other coworkers will burn in hell. I suppose when it is my turn to answer for my sins....I'll find out if I should have listened to him.

We humans need to get our priorities straight and learn to live together...we just may need one another for a hand up. Mother Earth has been unleashing her fury around the world...do you think the poor victims of the tsunami or the mudslides give a hang as to whether the person reaching out to help them has a sexual preference different from their own. No...in the grand scheme of things...it is not our sexuality that proves what sort of human we are...but our actions and our compassion for others. It is the human spirit to band together in times of need. So why would we be so exclusive in times of normalcy?

[molucass]

My parents are "homophobes".
If I were to tell them that I like girls they would kick me out and probably never talk to me again. That's just the way they are.
I've dropped subtle hints before just to get their views on it, and they are completely close-minded. In fact, most of my family is that way. I am glad that I am not.
I am dating a girl right now and as much as I would love to introduce her to my parents and tell them how I feel, I just can't.

If I ever have children, and they were to tell me they were gay/bi/lesbian, I would be completely fine with it. I would still love them for who they are and would help them in any way I could.

[Twisterdog]

I think the gods are laughing at us.

I agree!

And when they get tired of laughing at us, maybe they'll wipe the slate clean and start over with a wiser species at the top of the food chain, eh?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lbaker
... and my invisible god is better than your invisible god :rolleyes: nah nah nah ;)

But my god is bigger!

My god has a big belly and sits cross legged with his breasts showing.:p

BOO YA!!!!


.....ah, I mean BUDDHA!!!!!!!!!

-------------------------------------------


I remember the good old days when Homophones were words that sounded alike, not a category of people.

:confused:

[Karen]

That's homonyms, Richard! No phones involved!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Karen
That's homonyms, Richard! No phones involved!

I knew that.

I just SPELLED it wrong.


:rolleyes: ;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am going to say....RICHARD is right....in this war on words...

homophone

n : two words are homophones if they are pronounced the same way but differ in meaning or spelling or both (e.g. bare and bear)

homonym

n: one of two or more words that have the same sound and often the same spelling but differ in meaning, such as bank (embankment) and bank (place where money is kept).

:D :rolleyes: :D :p

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I am going to say....RICHARD is right....in this war on words...

homophone

n : two words are homophones if they are pronounced the same way but differ in meaning or spelling or both (e.g. bare and bear)

homonym

n: one of two or more words that have the same sound and often the same spelling but differ in meaning, such as bank (embankment) and bank (place where money is kept).

:D :rolleyes: :D :p


I think I am going to quit while I am ahead.



You know that Don Henley of the Eagles was asked about a possible Eagles' reunion.

He answered, "when Hell freezes over".

Hence the name of the live album.


I am scared.


:eek:

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Randi
.... and in Denmark, Bank is where you keep your money - or to get beaten up.

Bank ordered to pay robbery victim

An Austrian bank has been ordered to pay a customer almost £10,000 compensation for being attacked and robbed in the street.

The woman had picked up £20,000 cash from the Bank Austria Credit Anstalt in Vienna after ordering it by telephone
She was then attacked by two men, who sprayed pepper spray into her eyes before grabbing her bag, as she walked back to her apartment just 500 metres away.

The Vienna Industrial Court ruled in favour of the woman, who claimed the men had been watching her collect the money, and found the bank partly responsible.



The judge said the bank manager should have invited the woman "into a discrete, secluded room" instead of giving her the money in full view of other customers.:eek: :eek:

[carole]

Although this thread has been dormant for a while, I decided to post on it, as this discussion was raised in my home yesterday.

My daughter had a bit of a crush on one of her earlier school friends brother, she is 12, he is 14 going on 15, however it came to my attention yesterday he was leaving our city and being sent to boarding school about 4 hrs away.

To cut a long story short, this young man was been given a hard time at our local unisex school, why? Yes you guessed it, he has come out and told everyone he is GAY.

This young man tryed to committ suicide by cutting his wrists, and apparently he has told my daughter and friends his mother now hates him.

I thought I would post this, just so people can understand just how hard it is for gay people in our society today, even though it is more tolerant than it was, we still have a long way to go in accepting different life styles.

My heart goes out to this young man, I have been aquaintances with him since he was quite young, not in a big way, but my daughter used to play with his sister, I am sad to hear his mother has reacted this way, she is re-married to a Doctor, surely you would think he would be dealing with gay people all the time and would beable to help her through this, it appears they are sending him away , to save face and embarrassment, shame on them.

They are sending him to an all boys school, I wonder how that will work for him.

So give a thought to this young man, who's life is in turmoil right now.

[Christiansmommy]

Originally posted by carole
Although this thread has been dormant for a while, I decided to post on it, as this discussion was raised in my home yesterday.

My daughter had a bit of a crush on one of her earlier school friends brother, she is 12, he is 14 going on 15, however it came to my attention yesterday he was leaving our city and being sent to boarding school about 4 hrs away.

To cut a long story short, this young man was been given a hard time at our local unisex school, why? Yes you guessed it, he has come out and told everyone he is GAY.

This young man tryed to committ suicide by cutting his wrists, and apparently he has told my daughter and friends his mother now hates him.

I thought I would post this, just so people can understand just how hard it is for gay people in our society today, even though it is more tolerant than it was, we still have a long way to go in accepting different life styles.

My heart goes out to this young man, I have been aquaintances with him since he was quite young, not in a big way, but my daughter used to play with his sister, I am sad to hear his mother has reacted this way, she is re-married to a Doctor, surely you would think he would be dealing with gay people all the time and would beable to help her through this, it appears they are sending him away , to save face and embarrassment, shame on them.

They are sending him to an all boys school, I wonder how that will work for him.

So give a thought to this young man, who's life is in turmoil right now.

That is so very sad. I feel bad for that boy. I could never do that to my son. Hope he finds a teacher at the school that he can become friends with, kind of a mentor, to help him deal with everything, including rejection from his mom.

[caseysmom]

People can really mess up their childrens lives...that is really sad.

[aly]

Since I didn't post in the original thread, I'll answer the original question on here...

I would give full support to my child, whether they be straight, gay, bisexual, or whatever. I would be worried about how an unaccepting society would treat my child, but I would fully support that they live their life without having to hide themsevles from everyone and live a lie.

[chelsea]

I could NEVER disown or bash my child for being who they are, it is a part of life and if you look back through history being gay has been a part of life for centuries. I also want to add that loving and supporting your child should be unconditional.

[lisalee]

Well, I'm not having children but I would never hold anything against anyone because they were gay. I have nothing against gay/homosexual people or them marrying, that's there business if that's what they want to do. I believe there are far worse people out there.

[tikeyas_mom]

if i have a child that came out as being gay i would accept it, and i would always be there for my child... it would make no difference to me, i would love him/her just as much as i had.


anyone who wouldent, should never have kids.