What a surprise ?

[PayItForward]

LOL, If you disagree with Chrang, she deletes the thread but while the reglious posters agreed with her it stayed up.

This is why my forum doesn't allow posters to delete entire thread it prevents posters deleting threads for no reason other than people not agreeing with the original poster.

PS. I have a full copy of the thread if anyone is interested ;)

[dukedogsmom]

I just commented on that in your other one. I couldn't save it because I'm at work. That's absolutely ridiculous. Did you see my last comment there before it got deleted? I now can't exactly remember what I said.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
I just commented on that in your other one. I couldn't save it because I'm at work. That's absolutely ridiculous. Did you see my last comment there before it got deleted? I now can't exactly remember what I said.


Instead of forcing those values on children, parents should be witnessing by not showing disgust and showing tolerance and compassion. Whomever feels it's such a horrible sin(everyone's definition of a horrible sin is different and yes, some justified, like murder) should be trying to understand why they feel that way and go from there. I just don't understand all this hostility. You'd think some of you would rather have a child that was a criminal than for them to like someone of the same sex. Meant to add that it's interesting that people start threads like this and then get upset when they don't get the answers they wanted to hear.

[Kfamr]

WHY was it deleted?? :confused:

I didn't see anyone getting nasty (towards eachother, atleast) just people showing different views on the subject.

[PayItForward]

BTW threads deleted by posters are still in the forum database we just can't see them.

I vote that Karen reinstates the thread but locks it so whilst no further comments can be added.... the excellent discussion can be views by those who would be interested in the links and info in it.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by Kfamr
WHY was it deleted?? :confused:

I didn't see anyone getting nasty (towards eachother, atleast) just people showing different views on the subject.
Chrang threw her dummy out of her pram when people who didn't agree with her posted on her nice anti-gay christain post ;)

[Kfamr]

Oh, I wanted to add..... My marriage proposal still stands for Johanna.

Will you choose to be gay for today, with me Jo? You're a brilliant woman!:D

[popcornbird]

Why was it deleted??? :( Everyone was posting their opinions in a civil manner. Did I miss something?

[dukedogsmom]

I believe you'll find the answer in my last post. It wasn't going the way it was intended, I guess.

[catnapper]

Sigh... I was in the middle of making a post, hit "submit reply" and the thread was deleted....

Thanks PIF for giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts...



You know, this debate is just one example of why I broke away from organized religion. I choose to keep God in my heart and live my life as a good Chistian who loves her neighbors. I used to be very active in my church. I went to mass every Sunday and prayer meetings on Wednesday. Somewhere along the line I noticed that we'd spend two hours praising God in a prayer meeting, then leave to go to a diner (all the youth group members went out afterwards)

Anyway, we just got done praising the Lord and learning about becoming better Christtians... only to stand on the church steps and discuss which diner NOT to go to. One would say "I can't go there - thats where the Jews hang out" Another would say "Well the other one is where the blacks hang out" and another would claim another diner is "where the fags go." PUHLEEEEZE! Did they miss the whole message of compassion and love the priest was giving them inside the church?

I would stand by my child if he/she decided to live their life as a gay person. I also stand by my determination to make sure they know thats what they want. I don't want them going off into the sunset with someone who isn't right for them, male or female. My oldest daughter was dating a guy who was into drugs. We knew he was a bad influence for her, and told her so, but we let her realize that for herself. Same would go if she dated a girl. She would have to decide for herself if that relationship was good for her or not. Either way, I'd be glad she was happy. Again, my husband would have a real tough time with it. Nothing I can say or do will change his mind, so I don't try to force my opinion on him just as he doesn't with me. Perhaps he would see things differently if one of his children did come to us and announce their sexual preferences. I don't know.

[PayItForward]

I have PM'd Karen asking her to un-delete the thread and lock it so the information and links once posted on are not lost.

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&postid=981054#post981054


If any one else would like the thread back and locked, I suggest they do the same.

[Prairie Purrs]

Here's what I don't understand about the whole religious argument against allowing gays and lesbians to live their lives the same way heterosexuals do. Scientific evidence shows that human sexual preference is a matter of physiology--not something you just wake up and decide to do one day. But the gay-sex-is-sin line of thought would deny gays and lesbians the basic right to live in accordance with the way they were born.

What this argument says is that a fairly substantial percentage of people should squelch their natural sexual desires FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. We've seen how well that works for priests. And at least priests have a choice in the matter.

When religious texts are not viewed in the context of when they were written, they can be used to justify all manner of evil. The Bible has been waved in support of the Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, slavery, and the Holocaust. Most so-called literalists pick and choose among what Biblical rules they'll follow and which ones they'll disregard.

We each have the right to follow our own religious beliefs in this country--or to follow no religion at all--thank Goddess. But all rights have their limits. The right to follow a belief that condemns gays and lesbians for living their lives should not be allowed to reach so far as to deny gays and lesbians the same legal right to form families that the rest of us enjoy. Unfortunately, that religous-based deprivation of rights is just what has happened in most of this country.

[Tonya]

If homosexuality is even a sin, it should be waaaaaay down on the list. Killing, raping, stealing, being promiscuous...the list goes on. I just cannot fathom shunning someone because they LOVE a person. Rather or not my child, my neighbor, or my friend is gay is the least of my concerns. There are so many other things to worry about in life.

I won't even discuss rather or not it is a sin though. I am a Christian and I know what my Bible says. But in my heart, I cannot bring myself to agree. I guess it's one of those things I'll have to ask God about when my time comes.

[kimlovescats]

My thoughts to ponder...... if being gay is "natural" in God's eyes, then why has the spread of AIDS afflicted us now? Why is this a disease of and for gays? I do agree with most of what Popcornbird posted, and we should all "hate the sin, love the sinner"! I feel like God has made it so that sinful things cause us distress, anguish, guilt, and suffering. This can also mean sinful actions .... therefore, being married to the opposite sex, if it was out of God's will, can also and DOES cause anguish, therefore ending in divorces, abuse, etc.

I have to also disagree that all gays / lesbians are born that way. Today, like most things, it's a "try it, you'll like it" society. I believe that many youngsters are pulled in to same sex relationships as a means to "fit in" with a certain crowd, just as they are pulled in to drug use, or any kind of promiscuity. I also think that some have just not been noticed enough by the opposite sex and out of insecurity, choose to become gay just to have an intimate relationship and acceptance of some kind. No, I would not teach my children to follow this path, because the Bible that I believe and trust in teaches against homosexuality, just as it does any form of adultery.

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by PayItForward
Chrang threw her dummy out of her pram when people who didn't agree with her posted on her nice anti-gay christain post ;)

NASTY as usual, PIF!!!:rolleyes:

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by PayItForward
This is why my forum doesn't allow posters to delete entire thread it prevents posters deleting threads for no reason other than people not agreeing with the original poster.



Then my question is ... why don't you stay on your own forum PIF, instead always coming to PT and getting something started?:confused:

[dukedogsmom]

PIF wasn't the one that "started" anything, it was changharris. Then, when it wasn't going the way she wanted, she deleted it all.

[micki76]

Originally posted by kimlovescats
My thoughts to ponder...... if being gay is "natural" in God's eyes, then why has the spread of AIDS afflicted us now? Why is this a disease of and for gays?


Couldn't let this one go by. This misguided statement is why this disease is spreading so quickly. This is not a "gay" disease.

In 2003, approximately 1,700 children under the age of 15 years, and 6,000 young people aged 15 to 24 years became infected with HIV every day.(1)

Of new infections among men in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 60 percent of men were infected through homosexual sex, 25 percent through injection drug use, and 15 percent through heterosexual sex. Of newly infected men, approximately 50 percent are black, 30 percent are white, 20 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups.(4)

Of new infections among women in the United States, CDC estimates that approximately 75 percent of women were infected through heterosexual sex and 25 percent through injection drug use. Of newly infected women, approximately 64 percent are black, 18 percent are white, 18 percent are Hispanic, and a small percentage are members of other racial/ethnic groups.(4)

Taken from:
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/aidsstat.htm

Their numbers were taken from the CDC as indicated at the bottom of the page.

[caseysmom]

Sorry but statements like aids is a gay disease just blow me away and I don't even know where to start. So do you think women are afflicted with breast cancer for some reason?

I hope I have emphasized love and tolerance to others so much that my children would know I would love them.

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
PIF wasn't the one that "started" anything, it was changharris. Then, when it wasn't going the way she wanted, she deleted it all.

I know that she didn't start the original thread, but unfortunately she has a long history of being rude here on PT and I for one have had ENOUGH of it!:rolleyes:

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Kfamr
Oh, I wanted to add..... My marriage proposal still stands for Johanna.

Will you choose to be gay for today, with me Jo? You're a brilliant woman!:D


FINALLY! A marriage proposal! We can raise Jonah together! He will know tolerance, utter devotion towards the felines and canines, adore Chuck Johnsons (isn't that what those shoes are called? LOL, I am old), all types of music, and all types of people!

Do we have to live in Florida, though?

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by caseysmom
Sorry but statements like aids is a gay disease just blow me away and I don't even know where to start. So do you think women are afflicted with breast cancer for some reason?

I hope I have emphasized love and tolerance to others so much that my children would know I would love them.

AIDS began with homosexuals! It has spread to innocents through drug transfusions, etc. I am not going to argue any more on this insane thread. I usually make a point to avoid the DOG HOUSE because of this very thing happening. Don't we all have enough stress in our lives, than to come here looking for more? I only came to this forum today, because a dear friend mentioned it to me, and I was too "human" and was curious!:rolleyes:

[dukedogsmom]

Originally posted by kimlovescats
AIDS began with homosexuals! It has spread to innocents through drug transfusions, etc. I am not going to argue any more on this insane thread. I usually make a point to avoid the DOG HOUSE because of this very thing happening. Don't we all have enough stress in our lives, than to come here looking for more? I only came to this forum today, because a dear friend mentioned it to me, and I was too "human" and was curious!:rolleyes:
I have to beg to differ on that remark as it's totally wrong

Quote: A new study of the oldest known HIV suggests the virus jumped from animals to humans in the 1940s.

The year was 1959, location: The central African city of Leopoldville, now called Kinshasa, shortly before the waves of violent rebellion that followed the liberation of the Belgian Congo. A seemingly healthy man walked into a hospital clinic to give blood for a Western backed study of blood diseases. He walked away and was never heard from again. Doctors analyzed his sample, froze it in a test tube and forgot about it. A quarter-century later, in the mid-1980s, researchers studying the growing AIDS epidemic took a second look at the blood and discovered that it contained HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.
And not just any HIV. The Leopoldville sample is the oldest specimen of the AIDS virus ever isolated and may now help solve the mystery of how and when the virus made the leap from animals (monkeys or chimpanzees) to humans, according to a report published last week in Nature. Dr. David Ho, director of the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center in New York City and one of the study's authors, says a careful genetic analysis of the sample's DNA pushes the origin of the AIDS epidemic back at least a decade, to the early '50s or even the '40s.


end quote.

Taken from here:
http://www.thebody.com/wa/spring98/begin.html
Before you start accusing innocent people, you might want to do some research.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by kimlovescats
AIDS began with homosexuals! It has spread to innocents through drug transfusions, etc. I am not going to argue any more on this insane thread. I usually make a point to avoid the DOG HOUSE because of this very thing happening. Don't we all have enough stress in our lives, than to come here looking for more? I only came to this forum today, because a dear friend mentioned it to me, and I was too "human" and was curious!:rolleyes:


Kim, I love you, but, you are factually wrong. It is this sort of hype that keeps the AIDS epidemic running strong. AIDS isn't anymore of a gay person's disease than breast cancer is a woman's disease.

You would have had to see the whole thread to know that PIF didn't start anything. It was one of the religiously righted, honest. PIF didn't add anything to the fire...it was raging from the very first post (the thread starter) before she posted in it. I can't claim the same innocence.

I can't presume what you would or wouldn't have posted, but, I rarely(if ever) see you debasing others all in the name of Christ and religion.

[catcrazylady]

I have been following this thread and find everyone's view points interesting. I like PT to be my Happy Place so I normally keep my opinions to myself and just have fun. I do enjoy reading and learning from the many view points of PT members. I intend to keep my views on this subject to myself but I could not let this go by.

Originally posted by PayItForward
Chrang threw her dummy out of her pram when people who didn't agree with her posted on her nice anti-gay christain post

Totally uncalled for PIF!!! Too many statements going on here about what you allow and what you don't allow on your website. This is NOT your website, live by the rules or move on. I understand that you are upset that the original thread got deleted and that is your right but these kinds of statements are just plain nasty and no longer express an opinion. Weather you agree/disagree with any statement made by anyone on this board is your right and that is what keeps the Dog House interesting but personal attacks and slams against this website are uncalled for!

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Kim, I love you, but, you are factually wrong. It is this sort of hype that keeps the AIDS epidemic running strong. AIDS isn't anymore of a gay person's disease than breast cancer is a woman's disease.

You would have had to see the whole thread to know that PIF didn't start anything. It was one of the religiously righted, honest. PIF didn't add anything to the fire...it was raging from the very first post (the thread starter) before she posted in it. I can't claim the same innocence.

I can't presume what you would or wouldn't have posted, but, I rarely(if ever) see you debasing others all in the name of Christ and religion.

Johanna, thank you ... I am sorry if my stats were wrong. That is just what I have always thought / heard to be right. This is exactly why I normally don't come to this forum. I don't like debates or conflict. I will now 'bow out' before I get in any deeper! ;)

[Cataholic]

I can only presume that anyone blasting PIF didn't see the original thread??????

[micki76]

Originally posted by Cataholic
I can only presume that anyone blasting PIF didn't see the original thread??????

They can see it here, Johanna:


Originally posted by PayItForward
http://www.piftails.com/gay.html

[Cataholic]

Thanks, Micki Mouse. BUT, what I just don't get is why the blasting doesn't get pointed at the source. PIF didn't stir this up...

[catcrazylady]

Originally posted by Cataholic
I can only presume that anyone blasting PIF didn't see the original thread??????

Yes, I did see the original thread and I will be the first one to say that EVERYONE has a right to post their opinions. Opinions are just that but I feel like some of PIFS remarks are no longer opinions and starting to become nasty personal remarks and I don't think her remarks about this website are necessary.

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Thanks, Micki Mouse. BUT, what I just don't get is why the blasting doesn't get pointed at the source. PIF didn't stir this up...

OK, wait a minute ... I have to post this. I have now seen with my own two eyes, the post in question. Chris posted very nicely and calmly and then PIF started the rudeness and name-calling!


Posted by chrangharris on 01-16-2005 02:05 AM:

When I orginally started this post, I had it in my mind that my adult child was telling me that they were gay. It never crossed my mind that it could be my minor child. If it were my adult child, I would react differently... I have raised that child and it is now their turn to make decisions. Hopefully, the will make wise decisions based on the values and Biblical beliefs Bryan and I raised them with. I would not agree with their decision to be gay or be in a gay relationship but I can no longer control their life.

If it were my minor child who told me they were gay, they would not be allowed to act on that until they were out of my house. I support them, I'm still raising them, they will live by my rules. To me that would be the same as them wanting to do drugs, drink, or even have a member of the opposite sex over, or even something as simple as dressing inappropriately- it will not happen in my house.

Thank you for keeping this as a way of exchanging different opinions and beliefs and not turning this into something mean or hateful.
__________________
Chris



Posted by PayItForward on 01-16-2005 02:31 AM:



You have lead a very shallow life if you think being gay is a decision that people have made.

I want to know when you made the decision to be straight?

At what age did you decide that you wanted to spend the rest of your life with a male ?

The ONLY problem with being gay is having to deal with narrow minded people like you.

Your entire attitude is mean and hateful towards gay people.

I found your question very offensive and it makes me ashamed to be straight.

Your question should not even be an issue who cares if your child is gay, the important things are are they healthy, happy and law abiding.



I rest my case!
Kim

[Prairie Purrs]

Actually, I believe that the thread turned hateful when the comparison was made between being gay and being a drug abuser. That's what got under my skin. I was extremely offended, and I couldn't imagine how hurt gay PT members would be at such slander.

[kimlovescats]

Originally posted by CatsinDenver
Actually, I believe that the thread turned hateful when the comparison was made between being gay and being a drug abuser. That's what got under my skin. I was extremely offended, and I couldn't imagine how hurt gay PT members would be at such slander.

Chris didn't say that the two were equal, she was simply stating the different beliefs (HER beliefs) that she would treat with the same reaction in raising her child.

[Prairie Purrs]

Originally posted by kimlovescats
Chris didn't say that the two were equal, she was simply stating the different beliefs (HER beliefs) that she would treat with the same reaction in raising her child.

Well, I don't want to quibble, but she said that to her they were the same thing. And that comparison was made even earlier in the thread. And I found it highly offensive, and hateful.

People are free to say nasty things based on religion or for any other reason. But when they do, they should expect to be called out on it.

[Cataholic]

AND, to further expand on CID's thoughts, assume, Kim that she DID say what you are suggesting...can't you see the issue with drawing such a comparison? Do these two concepts- drug abuse and homosexuality REALLY belong in the same class? Religion aside, that these two concepts are to be painted with the same brush is bizarre. To me, it suggests bigger problems with the believer than we are addressing here and now.

[Uabassoon]

I generally try to stay away from these threads, but this time I'm going to say something.

I'm always dissapointed when I read these threads at the hateful things "Christians" will say. Mean, hateful remarks. Like I'm going to hell, or I'm compared to a drug user, a child molester or any other sort of bad person, or that I deserve AIDS. Now I'm not saying that I disrespect your opinion. Because I am open minded and I believe that you have a right to think what you want. But the bible I grew up with taught me not to judge others.

For example PCB (sorry to bring you into this) strongly believes that homosexuality is wrong. But I respect her opinion and respect her because she had never said anything mean or hateful or judgeful. She just states why she feels the way that she does, but she's never been hurtful. That to me shows that you understand the teachings of God.

When I look at my girlfriend I don't see someone I just want to have sex with. I don't see something I need (like a drug). I see the most amazing person I've ever met. I see a woman that I want to amaze and make happy. I want to bring her flowers, make her dinners, take her on surprise vacations. Hold her close to me and let her know I love her as much as I could possibly love anyone. I want to grow old and have a family. I want a wedding, I want a house with a white picket fence, I want a dog and cats and 2.5 children.

If I'm evil and I "burn in hell" then a lifetime of love is worth an eternity in hell. But you know what, those of you that judge and are hateful and mean will have to deal with a judgement as well.

Despite everything that has been said, I will still have respect and hope that maybe you worded things wrong. Or maybe you don't understand and didn't mean to be judgemental but you were just trying to state your opinion. I will always try to think the best of people, because that's the way I was brought up.

[Cataholic]

Dearest Laura,
You are twice the person I am. I will never be as accepting and loving as you are. For every hurtful hateful thing said, in the name of God, know that there are ten of me (maybe not as vocal) that gladly call you a friend.

Johanna

[Prairie Purrs]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Dearest Laura,
You are twice the person I am. I will never be as accepting and loving as you are. For every hurtful hateful thing said, in the name of God, know that there are ten of me (maybe not as vocal) that gladly call you a friend.

Johanna

Well said, and seconded.

[micki76]

Originally posted by Uabassoon
But you know what, those of you that judge and are hateful and mean will have to deal with a judgement as well.

So true, Laura.


Originally posted by Cataholic
Dearest Laura,
You are twice the person I am. I will never be as accepting and loving as you are. For every hurtful hateful thing said, in the name of God, know that there are ten of me (maybe not as vocal) that gladly call you a friend.

Johanna

Ditto that!

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
Her reasons for deleting it - some folks are simply assuming that she did so because "people did not agree with her". She is being discussed in a personal manner and in an angry, superior tone. I am sure you know the old adage that when you assume, you put an ass between u and me. That is what is happening here
I am also being talked about in an angry, superior tone and people are assuming things about me wrongly but I won’t be deleting the threads as I am a strong moral person who believes it is everyone’s right to have an opinion …for right or wrong…about me or anyone else.

-------------------------------

Originally posted by PayItForward
Chrang threw her dummy out of her pram when people who didn't agree with her posted on her nice anti-gay christain post
[i]Originally posted by kimlovescats NASTY as usual, PIF!!!:rolleyes:
See my above comment, you are assuming malice where there is none. The smilie at the end of the comment shows I am making a joke, as I find it very amusing when people delete threads when people disagree with them.

The ‘dummy comment’ is English slang which is commonly used in reference to adults who behave in a childish way and deleting a thread for no good reason is childish.

I am interested in the ‘as usual’ part of your comment did I disagree with someone else recently ? This is a genuine question.

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Totally uncalled for PIF!!!
Please see my above comment to Kim.
-------------------------------


Originally posted by catcrazylady
The original thread became "personal" and that is where things started going wrong. It was becoming an attack instead of a debate or opinion sharing. People want respect for their opinions and yet don't want to give the same to others.
This again is assumption, I did not post any attack or get personal at any point, I was enjoying the debate until the thread was deleted.
Like I said to Kim you are assuming malice when I am only disagreeing with some one else’s opinion. I didn’t write it with malice, hence there is none.

The only personal attack on the post came from Catoholic and that was aimed more at ‘Christians who condemn gays’ than a particular person. Shame it was lost as it was a post straight from her heart, an avid Christian herself may I add.
-------------------------------




Originally posted by PayItForward
This is why my forum doesn't allow posters to delete entire thread it prevents posters deleting threads for no reason other than people not agreeing with the original poster.
I got two separate comments about this post

Originally posted by kimlovescats
Then my question is ... why don't you stay on your own forum PIF, instead always coming to PT and getting something started?:confused:
I am also confused, owning your own forum does not exclude a member from posting on Pet Talk, as there are dozens of posters with their own forums.

I actually posted this comment to tell the people who are getting fed up with people deleting entire threads, that a solution is possible on this forum.

I run the same software and that is why amendments I make to my site can also be made to this site. I am being pragmatic and offering a solution to a problem, which upset several people.

I have also PM Karen with the actual settings to be altered to only allow people to delete their own posts not the entire thread. Karen & Paul are thinking about applying this amendment, I hope they do.


Originally posted by catcrazylady
Too many statements going on here about what you allow and what you don't allow on your website. This is NOT your website, live by the rules or move on. I understand that you are upset that the original thread got deleted and that is your right but these kinds of statements are just plain nasty and no longer express an opinion. Weather you agree/disagree with any statement made by anyone on this board is your right and that is what keeps the Dog House interesting but personal attacks and slams against this website are uncalled for!
Please see the above comments made to Kim.
-------------------------------


Originally posted by kimlovescats
I know that she didn't start the original thread, but unfortunately she has a long history of being rude here on PT and I for one have had ENOUGH of it!:rolleyes:
Another wrong assumation, I have a long history of stating my opinion which is often polar to other people opinions. People have been far ruder to and about me and on occasions have actually lied about me, than I ever have been to others. Unless your definition of rudeness is disagreeing with people, I do not have a history of being rude.
-------------------------------


Originally posted by kimlovescats
OK, wait a minute ... I have to post this. I have now seen with my own two eyes, the post in question. Chris posted very nicely and calmly and then PIF started the rudeness and name-calling!
That is your opinion, I believe Chris started the name calling by writing :=

I think acting out on a person's gay/lesbian desires is sinful.

Hopefully, they will make wise decisions based on the values and Biblical beliefs Bryan and I raised them with. I would not agree with their decision to be gay or be in a gay relationshipBeing gay if not going against the bible or having an unwise decision or indeed a decision in many cases.
… that being gay was the same as
To me that would be the same as them wanting to do drugs, drink,.

I posted my opinion and asked two questions, which have not been answered to date. I did not name call anyone, if you have to revert to calling names rather than putting your opinion forward, you have already lost the debate, that is why I don’t do it.

-------------------------------


Originally posted by Cataholic
Thanks, Micki Mouse. BUT, what I just don't get is why the blasting doesn't get pointed at the source. PIF didn't stir this up...
Thank you to you Cataholic and all the others who PM’d or emailed support to me on this matter.
-------------------------------

Just on Christianity, this part of my post is not aimed at anyone, these are my own personal views on religion.

I was a full member of the Church of England, both baptised and confirmed and very devoted as a young adult, until I was told that gays, blacks and others were not welcome at church. So I decided that such a bigoted church was not part on a true Christian path.

I honestly don’t know what I feel religion wise these days though some times I read my grandma’s bible and yet other days I don’t even think God ever existed, when I see the hate in the world.

But one thing I know to be true that accepting others for who they are no matter what without judgement is such an important part of living as a true Christian.

Going to church does not make a good Christian, neither does saying or thinking you are a Christian or reading the bible.

To be a true Christian, you have to live as the best person you can be, loving and helping your fellow man (and women), be they a drug crazed single mother, a professional gay couple, a Christian person.

Every person on this earth deserves compassion not judgement.

Anything less is not Christian (in my eyes)

[catcrazylady]

Laura, you are an amazing woman! I admire your style and I love how you handled what surely must/could be an emotional post for you.

I have a sincere question for everyone. I wondered about this when the original thread was active. I noticed that Sirrahbed and PCB's comments were basically the same but only Sirrahbed's post was quoted and remarked upon. This makes me wonder if sometimes it's the way things are worded? I'm sure it has nothing to do with Muslim or Christianity does it? Do we feel safer attacking/debating christianity because most of us understand it better? Is it just something as simple as one person being able to express themselves more eloquently?

Don't nail me please! I really am curious.
I would also like to say that I LOVE reading anything PCB writes. I find her to be very mature, kind, and gracious so please know that I am only asking why the different reaction.

[Cataholic]

I will add, in support of PIF's post, I was the one that got personal first..and wasn't clear why people were directing their anger towards PIF, rather than me.

Other than that, I thought the term 'dummy' was the the word for our term- pacifier. I didn't take it to mean 'dummy' as in not smart. BUT, even still, dummy is hardly a major no-no in our language.

[RICHARD]

I didn't go thru the thread in it's entirety so I'll keep this short.

I would suggest a book written by Randy Shilts, The Band Played On.

It's a story about the AIDS epidemic and the people who managed to track down it's origins and the people who pooh poohed the growing illness.

AIDS is a disease of opportunity.

No more, no less.

I could catch AIDS from giving mouth to mouth to an accident victim, getting splashed with blood during a fist fight, using a dirty needle or having sex.

Because it lies dormant for such a long time, the exact point of infection could never be discovered.


Years before it became known as AIDS the medical community
labeled the symptoms as FUO, fever of unknown origin.

Back in the late 70's I worked with a nurse who died of FUO...

Years later I realized that he did have AIDS and even though the medical community didn't know what was going on, It was pretty scary to see someone, anyone waste away in that fashion.

It's not just a gay disease.....It's a people disease.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by Cataholic
I will add, in support of PIF's post, I was the one that got personal first..and wasn't clear why people were directing their anger towards PIF, rather than me.

Other than that, I thought the term 'dummy' was the the word for our term- pacifier. I didn't take it to mean 'dummy' as in not smart. BUT, even still, dummy is hardly a major no-no in our language.

'threw her dummy out of her pram' does refer to a baby's dummy, the plastic toy with soft teat, I did not know of any other meanings. :(

[Cataholic]

That is what I thought...I re-read your post above, and it seems like you are giving it OUR meaning...not your meaning- of pacifier. So, anyone that thinks what you are saying when you say she threw her dummy out of her pram NEEDS to know it isn't some major slam you are making.

Maybe I am the only one that was confused...not the first time, lol.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by PayItForward
'threw her dummy out of her pram' does refer to a baby's dummy, the plastic toy with soft teat, I did not know of any other meanings. :(

Well, I guess I'm not gay.....I know what soft teats are.;)

[Fox-Gal]

This is one of those time where I'm not sure what to say or how to say it. But I'm going to give it a try. Silly me!

First to the Aid's comment...............WOW. So wrong in many ways. Aids is not a gay issues it is a human issues. And, if any time you are trying to say that God is punishing my child because she is Gay, Something she can not help, I take strong offense to that.

Now to the deletion of the thread. I look at it this way. In life once your words are spoken, there's not a delete button to hit, to make them go away. They are out there and once they are put into the air, you have deal with them. If the conversation gets off track, as a lot do, you deal with it. By being able to delete something, is in a way the same as a person putting their hand in you face, in the middle of a conversation, saying "stop I don't want to hear your words, your views mean nothing to me" Is that not out of line? Just asking.


personal attacks and slams against this website are uncalled for!
I don't think she was attacking this website, just stating her views on things. Just as it had been done before in a thread not to long ago about there not being enough moderators here. No one got mad then or thought it was slamming the site. I too think that thread should only be able to be deleted after so long and before any one posts on it. Doesn't mean I'm slamming PT, I like PT. I just have a different view on deleting. That's all!! It's not going to stop me from coming here.


About PIF being rude or out of line. Maybe she was, Maybe she wasn't. I'm not going to say. But who here hasn't at on time or another? You might think she was out of line, I might think you where out of line, for the aids comment and some might say I'm out of line. here. But don't judge someone for doing just what you have done yourself. It's like that old saying " Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house" (something like that) If you do throw a stone, be prepared to have the stone thrown back at you and don't get made when it does.

[catcrazylady]

My problem with PIF's remarks were the constant "my forum" comments. If it had only been once or twice ok, but it was in two or three different threads. I want what I say on PT to stay on PT. I don't mean to be disrespectful here PIF but if this thread was intended to be on your forum then that is where it would be. Believe it or not I don't like the fact that the thread got deleted either but that is the right of the poster on PT. Making suggestions for changes is fine but I felt like you kept pushing it.

As far as the smiley face making the comment a joke, it could still be taken as a nasty joke and caused hurt feelings. Yes, I know that Chrangharris caused hurt feelings too but the difference for me is that I don't think she did it intentionally while you meant to hit a slammer home.;) :D (note smiley face;) )

Cataholic- shame on you for getting personal!
Now this goes back to my question...Is the difference in how people react because of how it is worded?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Fox-Gal
It's like that old saying " Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house" (something like that) If you do throw a stone, be prepared to have the stone thrown back at you and don't get made when it does.

I actually dislike the glass house analogy.

I'm more of a "Don't throw rocks straight up into the air."


Gravity, ya know.....;)

[catcrazylady]

Will somebody answer my question???

Gotta Love Ya Richard!!

[dukedogsmom]

Yes, it makes a difference on how things are worded here, just as in real life.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Will somebody answer my question???

Gotta Love Ya Richard!!


WELL, even though you shamed me :)

I don't know that I can....as the posts seem different to me. You mean DEB Harris and PCB, right? NOT Chris Harris and PCB, right? For me, it is probably something to do with history (as in PCB and mine) that makes me read PCB posts more softly. I do not agree with PCB when it comes to these topics, either. But, I do see her walking and talking the religion thing consistently. I don't see her starting the hot topics, or deleting the things when they get out of hand. AND I remember her age (my secret ;) ).

I guess I just don't READ them the same way.

[micki76]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Now this goes back to my question...Is the difference in how people react because of how it is worded?

I think for me it has a lot to do with it. PCB states her position without being insulting, or looking down her nose at people. She doesn't insinuate that she's sitting in judgment of people. She only states what her religion and the Koran teach her and her. She can post her beliefs without making us all feel dirty, stupid, or less of a person than her. She also respects our views. She and I are absolute opposites on these types of issues, yet we remain good friends. :)

[Prairie Purrs]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
I have a sincere question for everyone. I wondered about this when the original thread was active. I noticed that Sirrahbed and PCB's comments were basically the same but only Sirrahbed's post was quoted and remarked upon. This makes me wonder if sometimes it's the way things are worded? I'm sure it has nothing to do with Muslim or Christianity does it? Do we feel safer attacking/debating christianity because most of us understand it better? Is it just something as simple as one person being able to express themselves more eloquently?

Don't nail me please! I really am curious.
I would also like to say that I LOVE reading anything PCB writes. I find her to be very mature, kind, and gracious so please know that I am only asking why the different reaction.

I think one major difference with PCB's comments were that she didn't go the "don't use drugs and don't be gay" route.

But yes, I feel more comfortable discussing Christianity than Islam, because I grew up going to Christian churches and I've been able to develop my own views about what is in (and what's not in) the Bible. I don't have the same familiarity with Muslim writings and teachings. And frankly, enough people in this country bash Islam without knowing what they're talking about, so I'm not joining in that chorus.

Also, I don't think any of this is about "attacking" Christianity. It's more about pointing out when Christianity is being used to justify something that isn't, in the views of many of us, very "Christian" behavior.

[catcrazylady]

Originally posted by Cataholic
WELL, even though you shamed me :)

I don't know that I can....as the posts seem different to me. You mean DEB Harris and PCB, right? NOT Chris Harris and PCB, right? For me, it is probably something to do with history (as in PCB and mine) that makes me read PCB posts more softly. I do not agree with PCB when it comes to these topics, either. But, I do see her walking and talking the religion thing consistently. I don't see her starting the hot topics, or deleting the things when they get out of hand. AND I remember her age (my secret ;) ).

I guess I just don't READ them the same way.

Yes, I am referring to Debbie's post.

Ok, then does that make it fair for the other? I mean we have Debbie posting and I'm sure her feelings are hurt when she seems to be picked out when she made almost the same exact statements as PCB. I was just curious as to why that happened. Sorry I'm getting this thing way off track but I found that interesting from the very beginning of the original thread.

[catcrazylady]

Very interesting responses. Thank you all for answering because I was really very curious.
I think I will try to be very very careful in how I say things!;)

[Cataholic]

Well....I don't think people took to Debbie's posts the same way they took to Chris' post. OR, maybe everyone, including me, is overlooking the difference in the Harris name? I still don't see the exact sameness as you do. I guess you need to do what is called a line and page for me....take each of their posts, and line them out...with references to each place you see similar stuff....LOL.....you got the time, don't you?

[RICHARD]

Here's a rule of thumb.

Read everything thru 3xs.

Before you answer.......

When in doubt, walk away.

When in real doubt, crack a joke.

Still in doubt??? Accept the other person's opinion.

Totally confused? Go watch television.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
[B]My problem with PIF's remarks were the constant "my forum" comments. If it had only been once or twice ok, but it was in two or three different threads. I want what I say on PT to stay on PT. I don't mean to be disrespectful here PIF but if this thread was intended to be on your forum then that is where it would be. Believe it or not I don't like the fact that the thread got deleted either but that is the right of the poster on PT. Making suggestions for changes is fine but I felt like you kept pushing it.
I run the same software and that is why amendments I make to my site can also be made to this site. I am being pragmatic and offering a solution to a problem, which upset several people.

I have also PM Karen with the actual settings to be altered to only allow people to delete their own posts not the entire thread. Karen & Paul are thinking about applying this amendment, I hope they do.


As far as the smiley face making the comment a joke, it could still be taken as a nasty joke and caused hurt feelings. Yes, I know that Chrangharris caused hurt feelings too but the difference for me is that I don't think she did it intentionally while you meant to hit a slammer home.;) :D (note smiley face;) )
You are entitled to think what you want but you are wrong it was a joke...I found the situation very very funny.

If you want to read bad into my posts that is up to you but as they are my posts I know how they were intended. If wrote a joke and said it was a joke it is a joke no matter what you think.

[catcrazylady]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Well....I don't think people took to Debbie's posts the same way they took to Chris' post. OR, maybe everyone, including me, is overlooking the difference in the Harris name? I still don't see the exact sameness as you do. I guess you need to do what is called a line and page for me....take each of their posts, and line them out...with references to each place you see similar stuff....LOL.....you got the time, don't you?

Ok, there you go! I just said I would have to be very careful in how I said things! I should have said their posts were "similar" very "similar" not almost exactly the same. :rolleyes: My fault and now I'm beginning to see why I keep my behind out of here!!;) :D

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by RICHARD
When in real doubt, crack a joke.
LOL, I tried that !

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by PayItForward
LOL, I tried that !

I know.....I love a good row......fight......not the water, boat thing....;)

[dukedogsmom]

PIF, I tried to pm you but your box is full. I like a good joke better than a good fight, unless it's kitty boxing. Now that's fun to watch.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
PIF, I tried to pm you but your box is full. I like a good joke better than a good fight, unless it's kitty boxing. Now that's fun to watch.

Kitty Boxing !!!!

I have delete a few PM's or you can email me at [email protected]

[kimlovescats]

The only thing I even care to post at this point is to dear Laura! Laura, I would never want to hurt you, and I in no means have tried to today. I have always valued your opinions, your friendship and enjoyed all of your posts. I am far from perfect, and I have sin in my life daily, as I always have and will have. NONE of us is perfect, nor ever shall be! I try my hardest to live by example, but because we are human and therefore FAR from perfect, that is hard to do. :rolleyes:

There are things in my life today that I see my daughter repeating, even after I have tried to show her how devastating they have been for me ... yet she still has chosen the same sinful path. It is very difficult to raise a family these days, in this society, in this world. We live in a sin-filled world, and no race, religion, or gender is immune to it's grasp.

Although I was raised in a very STRICT Southern Baptist household, there was much imperfection going on right before my eyes. However, I somehow "believed" that our family was PERFECT! Through the years, I have awakened to the harsh reality that NO family is perfect, as is no person. I have even in recent years left formal religion, as far as attending a church. :( This really saddens me, as it keeps me from worshipping my Heavenly Father in the way He deserves to be honored and adored. Why have I left the church? Because of hypocrisy (sp?) within the "christian" members! I am the first to tell you that there are many hypocritical christians, just as there are in any religion or whatever. I strive daily to commune with my Father God through constant mental communication, prayer and praise from my heart. It saddens me to hear and see so many people doubting God's Love and assuming that God allows disease and sin and death. He loves each and every one us, regardless of our ways .... but He gives us the loving CHOICE to follow His laws or man's laws. I can only pray that my beliefs are indeed His wishes for my life, and honestly try to help others as much as I can, by what I have learned from the Bible .... which I believe is the "infallable Word of God".

To anyone I have offended, I am sorry. Truly sorry. Laura, I do believe it is possible to both love and serve God, regardless of other choices we have made. By saying this, I am NOT suggesting you change your lifestyle, I am saying that I DO believe you can be a good person, and love the Lord without necessarily being "perfect". Of course, what do I really know? What do ANY of us HUMANS REALLY know? I prefer to cling to my Faith that God is in control, and that as long as I have my heart and eyes looking up to HIM for guidance in my life, that one day I will be blessed to see His face in Heaven.

Sincerely,
Kim

edit: Side note to Cataholic


Originally posted by Cataholic
AND, to further expand on CID's thoughts, assume, Kim that she DID say what you are suggesting...can't you see the issue with drawing such a comparison? Do these two concepts- drug abuse and homosexuality REALLY belong in the same class? Religion aside, that these two concepts are to be painted with the same brush is bizarre. To me, it suggests bigger problems with the believer than we are addressing here and now.

Johanna ... I have stated all I really wanted to say in my above post ... but this is the part that some people don't understand about "us Christians" .... there is never (at least not for me) a "religion aside" .... I'm sorry but to me, religion is my way of life, it is not something I can "use" one day and not the other.

Kim

[Kfamr]

"WOW" could describe my thought whilst reading through this thread.
While generally i'd agree with some of the things PIF says are hurtful, in my opinion the things that were said against gays and how the "parents" would react to their child being open and honest to them on their sexuality was utterly disgusting and disheartening.

You get what you dish out.



Originally posted by Cataholic
FINALLY! A marriage proposal! We can raise Jonah together! He will know tolerance, utter devotion towards the felines and canines, adore Chuck Johnsons (isn't that what those shoes are called? LOL, I am old), all types of music, and all types of people!

Do we have to live in Florida, though?


LOL could you imagine.... between our age, genders, and multiple pets, plus one baby boy.. the stares and comments we'd get!? :p
Their Chuck Taylors... i'm sure you can get them in baby sizes. ;)

Oh.. and NEVER.. whenever I move out it's going to be faaarrrr from Florida! (although the weather was very nice today.. in the 50's and sunny!)



Laura, I'm sure you know this already.. but you're truely an amazing and wonderful woman.

[carole]

Laura how you can remain calm and cool amongst all this i will never know, it has already been said, but you truely are an "amazing young woman" one I would be extremely proud to call my friend. Hugs.:)

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by kimlovescats

edit: Side note to Cataholic

Johanna ... I have stated all I really wanted to say in my above post ... but this is the part that some people don't understand about "us Christians" .... there is never (at least not for me) a "religion aside" .... I'm sorry but to me, religion is my way of life, it is not something I can "use" one day and not the other.

Kim

I didn't mean it the way you took it. I didn't mean, "put your religion aside". I meant, putting aside the religious aspects of the discussion, isn't there a fundamental difference in being sexual preference/orientation and drug abuse? For example, religion aside (just my word choice) isn't there a difference in drug abuse and killing ten children? Sure, both are 'sins', but, I think there is a gradation there, also.