Question about President Bush

[Samantha Puppy]

I'm not trying to start a fight - and I'll even go as far as to say that if this thread takes a turn for the ugly, I'll delete it outright. BUT a couple people have said things about our President that I just don't understand. I've tried to look up information or use his past record to see where they're coming from and I just can't. So here goes.

And let's keep this civil.

Some people on here have said that with President Bush being elected to serve a second term, the rights of women are going to be taken away. I just don't see it. During his first term, I didn't see or hear anything that made me, as a woman, feel I was losing any of my rights. And I haven't seen anything in his plans that would make me fear losing them during his second term.

That said, I "get" the abortion thing. I do understand where you're coming from with that, though I disagree. To clarify, the *only* time I feel an abortion is not wrong is when both the mother's and baby's lives are at stake. I have more thoughts on the issue of abortion, but I'll stop there. I don't want this thread to turn into purely that, because according to these other people, there is more at stake for women than just the abortion issue.

I look forward to hearing everyone's replies. :)

[LKPike]

I haven't followed the womans right issues with him, but theres several reasons he shouldn't have any control over this country. He went on vacation his first few months as president and ignored early warnings of 9/11 no one remembers that being all over the news? :confused: he also provided planes for Bin Laden's family to get out of america instead of holding them here to question them. Another issue is being against gay marriage its sad one of his biggest concerns is that instead of the people he sent over to Iraq to die for fuel and those "weapons" that no ones ever found. I don't understand why anyone would be against letting 2 people who love each other get married but as I've said to a best friend whos gay and wishes to marry her partner: Someday it will change. It use to not be legal for blacks to marry whites, and etc. But theres some heartless people out there whove said after gay marriages are legal, then "we" should make it legal for sisters to marry brothers and people to marry goats and the like. Do they truely believe people in general are that sick/stupid? It seems more and more each day people are using less and less common sense :(

[Samantha Puppy]

LKPike, I'm only interested in hearing about the women's rights issue right now... there are plenty of other threads for people to post all their reasons for disliking our President.

I'm just looking for clarification on the comments of the women who thinks our rights are at stake. I find their remarks very interesting.

:)

[Logan]

I asked the same question of two of the people who posted about women losing their rights in another thread, Samantha Puppy, and either they never answered, or their answers got buried in a long thread. I'm curious too.

[Samantha Puppy]

I think one of them answered, but then the separation of church and state conversation took over and it got buried pretty quickly. So I thought I'd bring it to the forefront and hopefully they'll all see it this time. :)

[aly]

I myself feel that abortion is wrong. Even if I was raped, I would have the child. I can't expect everybody to share my same beliefs though. I wouldn't think it was fair for me to judge everyone else's situations and tell them they can't have abortions. I was fortunate to grow up in a wonderful, loving family. I know not everyone else has and lots of bad things are going on in this world. I definately think abortion should happen when the mother's life is at stake (even if the baby's life is not at risk). I don't like Bush's views on it because he is holding everybody to his same standards. He also gives religious reasons for a lot of what he does, which makes seperation of church and state seem like a joke (yes, I am religious too, but don't think he should use it to make presidential decisions).

Here is something Dukedogsmom pointed out in another thread:

President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and sources told Time magazine that in his private practice he will not prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. He is also the author of a book which suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying.

Women rely on the FDA to ensure their access to safe and effective drugs for reproductive health care including products that have been proven to help safely prevent pregnancy. For some women - such as those with certain types of diabetes and those undergoing treatment for cancer - pregnancy can be a life-threatening condition. Religion should not be a barrier to access to safe and effective drugs that are necessary for preserving and promoting women's health and protecting women's lives.

http://www.aauwbridgeport.org/pub/Hager.htm
(The news is about 2 years old, but if you search for David Hager, you can find TONS of sites about it .. this was the first one I clicked on .. some are better)

That is the only thing I've heard in how women will be in trouble. I'm not really one of the people who think he'll ruin women's rights. But I will say that I am very sad for the gay community. They are people too and they deserve every right that you and I have.

I guess I haven't answered your real question since it was about women, so I'll stop here even though I could go on with other things I strongly disagree with. Just wanted point out that there are a lot of people of religious faith and who are pro-life as well, but strongly disagree with him on how he handles these things.

[LKPike]

Sorry for expressing my honest opinion. Don't bother looking for Bush's records on anything because they were "lost" when he was elected.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by LKPike
Sorry for expressing my honest opinion. Don't bother looking for Bush's records on anything because they were "lost" when he was elected. No one said that you couldn't express your opinion - I'd just like to keep this thread on the topic of women's rights and why having Bush in office for a second term will hurt us.

Thanks for that info., aly. :)

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I don't have specifics and I don't have time to research all the details....and I'm not sure how to say this right without making it seem all about abortion....but in a way, it is all about abortion. One of his main goals is to outlaw abortions. Since he can't come right out and do that, he he is going about it "through the back door." What I mean by this is he is slowly but surely interfering with womens reproduction issues. For instance - and again I dont' have details I just heard a report about this on the radio one morning on my way to work and these are the snippets I remember - we no longer supply money to other countries for womens reproduction health issues. I think this included condoms and sex education. In other words, we cannot give third world countries valid birth control methods - its abstinence or nothing, and if they get pregnant and want an abortion, we can't even council them on their options.

From what I understand - again I'm just going from memory and don't have facts or details - this is also the case in the US. Federally funded agencies cannot council women on their options as pertaining to abortions.

I'm not saying I'm for abortion or anything, I'm just giving you a place to start looking for how he's trouncing on women's rights. I know I probably shouldn't have even posted this because I don't have facts or websites or anything to back me up - and I can't even remember the name of the biggest family planning agency in the country that provides women with reproductive health care - Ah, Planned Parenthood is what I'm thinking of.

See, what Bush does is go about everything underhandedly and sneakily - "through the back door" so things happen slowly and people don't really realize what is happening until it's too late. And I will not go into that any further because I don't have facts or details to back myself up and I don't have the time to research it all and get back to you. So, without further ado, I rest my case and get back to work. If I get time I will do some reseach on Planned Parenthood, but maybe some of you with more time on your hands can check it out too....

[jazzzytina]

I voted for Kerry, and I'm a woman. My opinion would be that women's rights will pretty much stay the same during the next 4 years under President Bush. I think Laura Bush is a good woman and has significant influence on her husband.

I think it's time to rally around and support the President. It's time to put differences aside, recognize the good in President Bush - he's a patriotic American with strong convictions. He wants to do good for the country. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, and the benefit of our unwavering support.

Peace,
Tina (a liberal Christian democrat)

[aly]

I have to agree that Laura is amazing. I REALLY love her. She is so gracious and genuine.

[Maresche]

I understand that you didn't want to make this thread all about abortion, but for me this is the number 1 right Bush has made clear he would like to "take back" and in my mind it is one of the most frightening of rights to take away.

And this is for mostly one reason, abortion will not end if it is made illegal, it will only become more dangerous.

Abortion has been a part of every culture since women began to understand pregnancy. It has been done through a variety of means, some with horrendous consequences for mother and child.

I truly believe that if abortion is made illegal in this country, these are the means women will resort to.

While I would love to see the day when abortions are unneccessary because every pregnancy and child resulting therefrom will be wanted and loved, we are far from the society now and I don't see it arriving in my lifetime or in that of my children or grandchildren. We simply aren't that englightened yet. And I cannot condemn a woman to die when we have the medical technology available to make it safe.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I did just a quick search. Go to http://www.plannedparenthood.org and you'll find so much more on this, but here is just a brief quote.

"Further, students in school programs that are funded with federal abstinence-only money are typically taught only that sex is dangerous outside marriage, and teachers may not discuss or respond to questions about condoms or birth control pills except to point out their failure rates."

Now you say, what does this have to do with Bush? His name isn't mentioned there. But it has everything to do with Bush and his religious right conservative supporters. And this is only one area that that he and his religious right conservative supporters are trying to bully their way into our every day lives. Republicans stand on the theory that people should take care of themselves and not have the government interfere in their lives. And yet that is exactly what they are doing - slowly, sneakily, so no one notices until it is too late!

[christa]

I've had the same questions . . . just what are people talking about, Bush taking away women's rights . . . I've asked seriously in threads before, but it just gets lost.

From my own experiences on this board and others, it's my opinion that the only people that are afraid that they'll loose their rights are hardcore Pro-Choice. It's known that Republicans are Pro-Life and I think it just scares them that a Republican is calling the shots.

I am against abortions, unless the woman's life is at risk. I have a hard time understanding Pro-Choice.

It's really a clear cut issue. You're either Pro-Choice or Pro-Life. Not much of a gray area there. And I'm sure you've noticed that there's a lot of emotion behind both sides. It's not easy to debate, especially in a forum like this.

I am interested to know the answer to your question, Samantha Puppy. I hope someone takes the time to explain in more detail. Are these just fears? Or do you have proof? Because I just can't imagine Bush taking away everything that women have come to gain in the past decades.

[CathyBogart]

I think several people have just explained it in more detail. Reproductive rights mean more than just abortion.....If a pro-life woman cannot get contraceptives, it is essentially forcing her to either abstain or have children, and that is ridiculous. It is forcing his religious beliefs and ethics onto everyone else, and taking away an unmarried woman's right to a sex life.

[ramanth]

Or in my case, where I need birth control to keep the pain of Endometriosis at bay.

[Lady's Human]

And who exactly was planning on banning contraceptives?

[lizzielou742]

It's not that anyone is proposing banning birth control pills and condoms. It's that federal funding under the Bush administration has gone overwhelmingly to groups who support abstinence-only programs versus groups that provide contraceptives. It has also tried to eliminate health insurance coverage for contraceptives for federal employees and their dependents (in the 2002 FY budget).

There are other issues for women out there to be concerned about under Bush, such as the fact that women in the Bush administration get paid 78 cents for every dollar the men in the administration get paid, the fact that Bush's reps have said in the past that women's discriminination are a "very different category for the President" than racial and ethnic discrimination, emergency contraceptive issues, the Global Gaga Rule, possibly appointing Supreme Court justices that could rule to overturn Roe v. Wade, reports of non-profit organizations that offer contraceptives being repeatedly audited, reports of information about women's health being removed from government websites, etc. etc. etc.

[carole]

I was interested to read this thread, as I too had heard that about Bush,one of the reasons I was hoping he was not re-elected.

The thing is the fact he has two daughters of his own, makes me wonder if in actual fact he would consider taking womens rights away, is it pure hearsay and just stirring things up, or is it indeed true?

I have to agree with you Wolfchan 100 percent there.

I don't think it is clear cut if you are pro-choice or pro-life because I consider myself somewhere in between.. I certainly believe in a womens right to choose, but then again I am not for abortion randomly just because its inconvenient, so doesn't that make me on the fence somewhat?

[Logan]

Originally posted by ramanth
Or in my case, where I need birth control to keep the pain of Endometriosis at bay.

Kimmy, I have the utmost respect for you, and I hope you know that, but has anyone stopped you from using birth control??? I used it, myself, until earlier this year when it was no longer necessary because my husband took steps to prevent pregnancy. I have NEVER heard or experienced anything that made me think that birth control would not be available to me, certainly not from anyone who was President or running for President!

Are we all saying that we are "for" free for all sex?? Before marriage? I have a 13 year old daughter who is mature for her age........I preach abstinance all day long with her. Am I wrong wanting her to abstain from sexual intercourse that might lead to unwanted pregnancy or disease? Is President Bush or President Anybody wrong in pushing this agenda??? They are offered LOTS of alternatives in Sex Education in school, and parents, like me, are trying like heck to offer alternatives to them, at home, as we should, as good parents.

We push "neutering" for our pets, why not push abstinance for our children as well until they are old enough to make informed decisions??? I want grandchildren and will love them to pieces, but I want my daughter and other children to experience life without the burden of producing offspring before they are ready.

[ramanth]

No offense taken. :D

I don't think that my birth control pills will be ripped from my hands anytime soon. However, it's just troubling to know that there might be a new head of the FDA that doesn't believe in such contraceptives. Who's to say they wouldn't try to push for a ban on contraceptives for unmarried women. It probably wouldn't pass though, but the idea to me is scary.

I'm all for abstinence. I abstained till I was 21 and even then I wish I had waited longer. Not to be too personal, but Andy is a virgin and wants to wait till he's married. I respect and honor that and so we wait. :)

I probably won't be able to have kids anyway, but that's a different rant for a different time. :)

I'm all for abstinence being taught, but today's society seems more sex driven than back when I was a kid, so I think other methods should be taught as well and not just focus on one method.

[aly]

I'm another one for abstinance, BUUUT I also acknowledge that not every child is brought up in a home where their parents educate them on it. Sex between unmarried people happens and will continue to happen no matter what. It seems to be a big part of "casual dating". Although I don't agree with it, I don't think these people are wrong for doing it. They aren't hurting anyone (usually) and they should be allowed to practice safe sex with condoms, birth control, etc. No, I don't think people should be having a sex free-for-all (hehe), but casual sex happens between friends and between people dating all the time. I don't think they should be made to wait - even though it is something you or I would do.

[dukedogsmom]

I was brought up correctly and still started having sex at age 17. Thank goodness for planned parenthood! I don't want that taken away from other young women. I've been responsible about it all along because I knew I didn't want children. However, if I did get pregnant, I would have an abortion. There are enough unwanted kids in the world already. Some people are so selfish and self centered that if they can't have their own, they won't adopt. I think that is so closed minded. Proof of our rights have already happened. Several pharmacies have refused to fill a morning after pill because it was "against their beliefs" They should have been given their walking papers! One victim was a 21 year old mother with 2 kids. It was an accident. By the time she found someone else that said they would fill the prescription, it was too late. Like Aly said, things like this happen bit by bit and then, later on, it all adds up. That's just one of the many reasons I didn't want Bush to win. I'm thinking of the younger women and girls, such as my 14yr old niece. She's been rasied and educated properly,too. But, as we all know, that's sometimes not enough.

[Kfamr]

My parents have never ONCE talked to me about sex, the dangers of having unprotected sex, etc.. Not once.
Nor have they spoken to me about smoking, doing drugs, drinking, etc.
I have never had the urge to do any of them, and the sex part will stay that way until i'm married. (And the rest will NEVER happen. :p )

This is MY choice, and my choice only. Just like having an abortion is someone's choice, and their choice only. We cannot lead people's lives, or atleast I don't think we should. .. no matter what we believe is right and wrong. (However, there is a line that should not be passed)
As far as not filling someone's perscription because of your beliefs.. that's ridiculous. Why get into that profession if you're going to deny your customers their requests?
It'd be like a vegan working at Outback and not allowing anyone to order a steak.
This is only my opinion of course.

[jazzzytina]

It'd be like a vegan working at Outback and not allowing anyone to order a steak.

I love that one. :cool:

Anyone see the interesting documentary on Trio called "Texas Virgins" that talked about the abstinence movement in Texas while President Bush was Governor? It was very interesting, and I have to say refreshing to see so many young people walking that walk. I wish I had.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Originally posted by Logan
Kimmy, I have the utmost respect for you, and I hope you know that,

Logan, ditto for me having the utmost respect for you. However, with all due respect, I don't think using you and Helen as examples will work in this argument. As you know, there are many many many young girls out there that don't have wonderful parents like Helen is lucky enough to have. There are thousands and thousands of young girls growing up in inner cities where alot of times their own mothers need to be taught about birth control, much less having the mother teach the daughter. And I'm not just saying the inner cities are the problems. I'm sure there are thousands of young girls growing up in rural communities that are just as much at danger of getting pregnant at a very young age. Sometimes their excuse is "what else have we got to do?" I know that's a sorry excuse, but we can't look at our view on this, we have to look at it from their point of view.

I have no problem teach abstinence. What I have a problem with is the fact that these teachers much teach abstinence to the exclusion of all other forms of birth control. They can't even answer questions about other forms of birth control! I think it's a great theory to only teach abstinence, but it's not very practical in the real world.

And my last argument with all this is that on one hand Bush preaches about how the Republican party is the party that empowers people to run their own lives and wants government control out of people's lives to they can be free to make their own choices and run their own lives. Then on the other hand he wants to put more governmental controls in people's lives so they won't have the choice of having an an abortion. How is it that he calls Kerry a flip flopper when he clearly speaks out of both sides of his own mouth? "I say less governmental control for the people....oh but wait....except when it comes to abortions. Then we must let the government have complete control and ban all abortions." Someone please explain that one to me.....:rolleyes:

[Logan]

I know, I know, Debbie, which is why I ought to stay out of these discussions. :o

[lizzielou742]

Debbie -

It's a wedge issue. Just like the gay marriage thing. If the Republicans in office really did ban gay marriage and abortion, then it would no longer be an issue for average Americans to fight over when election time comes around. And there wouldn't be those two huge issues to separate the Republicans and the Democrats, and the parties wouldn't have much to fight over or separate themselves except issues like the economy, foreign policy, etc. The average American would be forced to concentrate on what else separates the two parties. So, I propose the Bush administration and Congress should go ahead and do it. Go ahead and federally ban gay marriage and abortion completely, I say. Sound crazy? It's because they'd never do it.

Know what I mean? ;)

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I'd have to disagree, lizzielou. If the Republicans went ahead and banned abortions, it would become even more of an issue because the pro-choicers would start pushing even harder to get it un-banned. And also, there would start to be all the health problems cropping up from women who go ahead and get them illegally by untrained non-doctor types.

So, therefore, I propose that the pro-lifers just drop the issue, since it's never going to be banned, and that way we can start to focus on the other "real" issues. :p ;) :)

And Logan, no problem. If you hang out in these threads in the doghouse you know I normally don't get involved either. Don't know why this one sucked me in. ;)

[lizzielou742]

Right. My idea was to go ahead and challenge the Republicans in the Congress to ban it, and make them defend it, knowing it would never happen. It would expose some hypocrisy. ;) :p

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Aaaahh...now I get it. ;) :D

[lizzielou742]

hee hee hee....


So, therefore, I propose that the pro-lifers just drop the issue, since it's never going to be banned, and that way we can start to focus on the other "real" issues

Agreed!!! Both sides should just leave the issue where it is. :D

[snappy]

I have just one small thing to say on this - I happen to know personally of a woman who lost her life in a back alley abortion - my boyfriends grandmother back in the 1930's. Her husband was a coal miner and they couldn't afford any more children and she was pregnant for the third time. She went to a doctor and died less than 1 month later. I don't want to go back to those times.

[Logan]

Originally posted by Tubby & Peanut's Mom
I'd have to disagree, lizzielou. If the Republicans went ahead and banned abortions, it would become even more of an issue because the pro-choicers would start pushing even harder to get it un-banned. And also, there would start to be all the health problems cropping up from women who go ahead and get them illegally by untrained non-doctor types.

So, therefore, I propose that the pro-lifers just drop the issue, since it's never going to be banned, and that way we can start to focus on the other "real" issues. :p ;) :)

And Logan, no problem. If you hang out in these threads in the doghouse you know I normally don't get involved either. Don't know why this one sucked me in. ;)

Thank you for undertstanding, Debbie. I have conflicting views and I think it is best for me to bow out of subjects like this one, and also the gay/gay marriage ones.......My opinions are just that, "my opinions" and they don't add any strength or defense, very good opposition to the arguments, so I choose to love on my pets and just stay out of the fray. Just today, I was saddened by the fact that we lost a long, loyal Pet Talker because of the Dog House. Maybe if she and I had stayed out of the Dog House, she would have remained a Pet Talk member and I would have learned to shut up and talk about animals, not politics!!! :(

[aly]

Oh NO! Who left??? :( You don't have to tell if you were asked not to, but I am sad someone left because of the Dog House.

I am one who has always stayed out of the Dog House completely until the last month or two. I will probably bow out of it again myself (just the Dog House, not PT). I have enjoyed a lot of the discussions here, but a few of them made me very stressed and upset! I hold no negative feelings for anyone though, I just think I'll be mentally healthier reading the rest of the forum, hehe :D

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I'm sorry to hear that too, Logan. :( I don't think anyone should leave PT because of the doghouse. Just stay out of the doghouse like we normally do. Funny how all of us that normally don't come here ended up in this thread.;) :) I hope whoever it is takes a little time out if that's what he/she needs and then comes back. It's at times like this I think the dog house should be banned. :( After all, this is a pet page. Why are we talking about politics here? I'm sure there are plenty of other venues on the net if we really wanted to get into politics, but this is PT, lets talk about our pets! :)

[aly]

Originally posted by Tubby & Peanut's Mom
It's at times like this I think the dog house should be banned. :( After all, this is a pet page. Why are we talking about politics here? I'm sure there are plenty of other venues on the net if we really wanted to get into politics, but this is PT, lets talk about our pets! :)

I totally agree. I've said this before, but I liked it better when there was no Dog House. General is a good section for some conversations that aren't pet-related. I don't see any reason for us to have so many controversial non-pet related topics though. I know Karen and Paul created it with the best of intentions though, so that people who wanted to stay out of the controversial threads didn't even have to open this section at all.

[tatsxxx11]

You're so right Debbie. How often do we tell each other, JUST DON'T GO THERE! I understand that this can be a very "hot" place and tempers flare and all of us have passionate feelings about our beliefs. Whenever I do come here, I come more to interject something for thought and contemplation and also with the hopes that perhaps I will learn something. I try not to take offense at other's opinions, not to take their reamarks personally, and hope that others will express their opinions with respect and in a manner that does not offend as well. I don't like to argue but I do like to hear and read what others are thinking because I don't think it's healthy to insulate one's self from the thinking of others, if only to better understand their positions. We are ALL entitled to our opinions and it's been my experience, if you dare to venture into this Dog House forum, and choose to loudly and passionately express your opinions, you have to be expect that others will respond with equal fervor and passion.

I haven't commented much at all on the political threads, for fear of getting bashed. BOTH sides have made snide, rude, personal, remarks regarding the candidates, their families and the opposing party in general. Whenever I laid down the challenge to have a calm, rational discussion of the ISSUES...no one replied to my thread:(. The tenor had become extremely combative and had sunk to a level that was less than conducive to intelligent conversation. Right now, just putting on the TV, tuning into the radio, listening to the rude, snickering, nasty, demeaning, devissive remarks of those on the "other" side, I feel as though I do not belong here; that I am not a part of the "real" America, not one of those who holds REAL values. I am part of the "blue left wing fringe" in a RED America. It's depressing me to a degree I can't express.:(:(:( I am a good and caring person and hold more empathy in my heart for my fellow man than I can express. I am NOT without values, faithless, unpatriotic. I am American as much as anyone who voted for the the other candidate. The people have spoken and we must respect that he is our President for the next four years. But i will NEVER be intimated, allow myself to pigeonholed into being characterized as something I am not.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Originally posted by tatsxxx11
I am part of the "blue left wing fringe" in a RED America. It's depressing me to a degree I can't express.:(:(:(

Does it help any to know you're not alone on the fringe? 'Cause I'm right there with you, and I know of at least one other that holds my views too, and I'm thinking Aly will join us too. :)

[K9soul]

Originally posted by tatsxxx11
I am part of the "blue left wing fringe" in a RED America. It's depressing me to a degree I can't express.:(:(:(

Sandra, I'm right there with you and understand how you feel. I also feel that no matter how much someone differs from me in my beliefs, everyone is due respect and should be able to speak their mind without getting insulting and degrading. There are many people at PT who feel differently than I do on some things but I don't respect them one iota less for it, but sadly it does affect my respect for somone when I see them get mean and petty and cruel with others. Even if someone is mean and petty to me first, it doesn't excuse me doing the same thing. The best thing to do in that situation is to just walk away, but I know that when tempers and emotions are flared it isn't always that easy.

Well, I'm very saddened and sickened at heart that someone has decided to leave PT from all of this.. :(

[aly]

Originally posted by Tubby & Peanut's Mom
Does it help any to know you're not alone on the fringe? 'Cause I'm right there with you, and I know of at least one other that holds my views too, and I'm thinking Aly will join us too. :)

Yes :) You guys are not alone.

I had the same feelings as Sandra when I heard some guy from the Fox News Network GLOATING in a way that I didn't think anyone would ever do, especially on TV. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Wasn't that an hour or so ago that I said I'd stay out of the dog house? Hehehe, oppsie :D

[lizzielou742]

Me too y'all! :)

Remember, 55 million Americans voted for Kerry! :)

Also, check out these maps, it helped me!

Very Cool 3D Election Voter by county map;
http://www.esri.com/industries/elections/graphics/results2004_lg.jpg

A Purple Nation:
http://www.boingboing.net/images/Purple-USA.jpg

I also think it's sad that someone felt they wanted to leave because of one particular section of PT. This is a very heated time of year, and I'm sure the political threads will calm down soon. :(

[tatsxxx11]

Yes Debbie, Aly and Jess, you have made me feel better:) And like all of you have said, I will continue, with every fiber of my being, to respect the beliefs of others and accept the mandate of the country. I just can't shake this sickening feeling. First I get bashed for being a Yankee fan in exile in Boston and now this...:D Hey, you gotta laugh! I know...this is a great country and our differences, and our right to express our opinions and be heard, sets us above all other nations on earth...Amen!:)

[aly]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I *am* doing my best in keeping my mouth shut though. :o I'm just reading the threads...and commenting in my head. :o

I'm sure if you comment, everyone will respect your opinion. The comments that are done in harsh, negative tones are the ones that are not respected. I'm sure you'd do it in a nice way. Unless of course there is an evil side to PCB that I don't know about :D

[tatsxxx11]

No one's commenting with malice, PCB, so jump right in! Actually, I think it's healthy to honestly express our feelings for a change, the hurt or offense we may rightly or wrongly be feeling. I think we all feel hurt in some way and talking about that is a good thing, and a first MAJOR step in getting to understand one another better and where we are coming from! I admit it, I feel miserable...disenfranchised and maligned. Let it rip, PCB:)

[lizzielou742]

I think discussing these things is good, in a way. It promotes political discourse, something this country needs more people to be concerned about. And it gives everyone a chance to see an opinion that might be contrary to theirs, so they can better understand their own positions on issues.

Of course, there are offensive things that have been said in the Dog House that should never have been said. There are times where I've felt like leaving, and have come awfully close. I just have to remind myself: things tend to get more heated over the Internet than they would in person (misunderstanding someone's wording, the advantage of not having to argue with someone to their face, etc.) and so therefore I try not to let it get to me personally.

And if it's the person I think it is, I hope they know that I realize I have been harsh in some posts, but it's only because I believe so strongly in what I say, and say what I mean. :( And that I've been making an active effort to be less confrontational.

[tatsxxx11]

That was very big hearted of you Lizzie:) I hope that she sees this.

[Kfamr]

Someone's left PT over this?? :confused: :( :confused:

Anyone mind PM'ing me who?

:(

[wolflady]

I was brought up correctly and still started having sex at age 17.... However, if I did get pregnant, I would have an abortion. There are enough unwanted kids in the world already. Some people are so selfish and self centered that if they can't have their own, they won't adopt. I think that is so closed minded....

Uh oh...I'm going to get slammed, I know it...which is why I don't come in these types of threads very often, but I just had to get this off my chest. I'm not directly referring to the person whose post I quoted, I'm referring to the general populace of young people today because I feel that her post directly relates to most young people's views sadly...
I tend to lean toward pro-life when it comes to this hot topic, but fit more in the grey area because I do feel that people who are raped or at risk (either the mother or baby or both) DO have a right to an abortion.
However, for the reason mentioned above makes me sad. Using abortion as a form of birth control because of irresponsible acts is wrong, IMO. If people can't keep it in their pants, and don't truely care for one another, why are they having sex in the first place? If people can't handle the outcome of having sex (ie, becoming pregnant)...why don't they just wait until they are mature enough to handle the outcome or financially stable to take care of a family, or do as our pets do and get "fixed". I know that sounds harsh, but way too many people use abortion as their birth control as an easy out to their mistakes.
I have never agreed with young people having sex because they just aren't old enough and mature enough to understand the responsibility of it. It is so sad how our society has come to make fun of the people who want to be responsible and wait for the right person rather than humping like rabbits with anyone and everyone they date :rolleyes:
either that or they just don't value what this act really is supposed to mean...which makes it more animalistic and unemotional, which is sad IMHO. I could never open up myself and my body to someone I truely didn't trust or love, so I guess I just can't understand the mentality of people who don't associate feelings with this most intimate of relationships with another human being. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the princess of purity. I had sex before I married, but I waited longer than most people today seem to. It was with someone I thought I had loved (so I regret opening myself up to him now) and had been with for 3 years, but then turned out to be a nightmare resulting in a restraining order.
Anyway, I knew the risk of having sex with him, and if something were to have happened, it was a risk knew I was taking...
There are so many people who can't have babies because of medical reasons or whatnot, and who genuinely want to have kids and can't...and it's heartbreaking that people like this have to suffer while millions are out there having abortions left and right. :(
I don't think it's fair to say that people are close-minded if they don't adopt because they can't have their own children. This is a very personal thing, and adoption isn't made easy to everyone. I have some very dear friends who are unable to have children due to medical reasons, and just imagine their grief over this. It seems easy to say such harsh things, until you are put in those shoes.
I know this entire post was off topic - about woman's rights...which I don't think will be changing anytime soon.

[shutterbug0303]

Sex between unmarried people happens and will continue to happen no matter what

This is a very true statement but.......teens know that adults seem to have this laxidazical attitude, a "they'll do it anyway" feeling, so what's to stop the teens from having sex. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately...I'm not sure), because of television, I can guarantee that almost every 10-11 year old knows what a condom is and what it is used for. And certainly, anyone young that is considering having sex knows about birth control. They don't need adults telling them how to use it. I am all for the abstinence programs being implemented. No-one is going to take away condoms...and maybe only giving kids the stats on how they can fail will help deter them totally. This is all IMO of course :D I just feel like the attitude that most adults give to children/teens makes them think that it just doesn't matter anyway. The only other reason that younger people are running out in droves to have sex is because they are lacking the feeling of love and acceptance...I can't fix that one (heck, I can't fix any of it), but all of the teen pregnancy that I've come across seems to stem from that.

:D Thanks for a good discussion everyone...although I just realized how totally off-topic I was :eek: Ooopppsss! :D

[micki76]

I was one of those YOUNG teens having sex, too. I had sex the first few times with my first "real" boyfriend unprotected. We were together for a long time and stayed together for a long time after we began having sex. We did use condoms regularly, but at one point I thought I had become pregnant (I was about 3 wks late). I finally broke down and spoke to my mother about it. We decided that if I was pregnant there was only one choice. She and I would raise the child together. :) I would still be allowed to attend school and have as normal a life as I could. Well either I had a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage), or I was never pregnant so no action was taken, other than Mom and I went to the Gynecologist and I went on the pill immediately. I never had unprotected sex again.

WAY of topic, but the point is that I wouldn't have used abortion as my birth control. Even though by the time I had a pregnancy scare, we were using protection, I still wouldn't have had an abortion. I understood the risks of what we were doing.

And I have to say that all those children that are waiting for homes are older (i.e. less desirable) children. People want to adopt babies, not children with learning disabilities and abusive pasts that can make them hard to deal with. It sounds horrible, but I dare say it's the truth in a lot of cases. Therefor all the infertile couples that I know have decide to try fertility drugs and even invetro. It's sad. :( :( :(

Yes, I think all the educated 10 year olds do know what condoms are for, but I think there are just as many kids who don't. I'd venture to say there are still kids who think kissing can make you pregnant. There are so many myths perpetuated about birth control and procreation.