Watching the Results...

[heinz57_79]

I'm sure there are many of you out there watching the results of the election, either on tv or on CNN's site. As the votes come in, I find myself increasingly anxious. My fear of Bush winning is so strong. Now, I don't want to start an argument or anything, I'm merely expressing my thoughts, fears and opinions right now since no one else is home. :)

Most people dont have as much at risk as myself and other like me. My very rights as an American citizen are at stake! I'm worried that if Bush wins, he'll be the first president to amend the Constitution to take away rights. That should not be right.... to anyone! I'm scared of the hypocrisy that will come along with that. I will be made to pay all the taxes as everyone else, abide by the same laws as everyone else, but I will not be afforded all the same rights as everyone else. "Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness" is what the constitution says. But if Bush wins, my liberty will be taken away. I will be free to love whom I wish, but why should I not be able to marry whom I wish? There was a time not so long ago when it was illegal for blacks and whites to marry. That was fixed. Why? BEcause it just wasn't right! What ticks me off is that when the subject of same sex marriage comes up, the next thing in line is sisters marrying brothers, or being able to marry the family dog. We are not freaks! We are not sick! We ARE the same as everyone else in the eyes of the law. Why not just make us wear the pink triangle as Hitler did? Gays didn't have rights then either. I realise that people will jump in and say, "But you have all the other rights... why do you need this?" To that I say, why do YOU? The argument of procreation has been talked about. Ok. So what about infertile men and women? Should they not be allowed to marry because they are incapable of having children? It's the same thing. America prides itself on being the best country in the world. Great. Now PROVE it! Prove to the rest of the world that we are the greatest! Prove that this IS the land of the free! With EQUAL rights for everyone. I don't want anything special. I just want the SAME rights as the rest of the country. Is that so much to ask? Is it wrong of me to want the same as everyone else? Is it wrong of me to want to marry the woman I love and have it RECOGNISED? I don't think so. But maybe I'm wrong.

If Bush wins, I fear for this country. I fear for the rights of the GLBT community, I fear for the rights of women who are looked at as 2nd class citizens by the Bush admin. I fear for the much needed medical research, the fund for which will be decreased as Bush throws us into more war, more death and more pointless killing. All I can do at this point is keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks for letting me rant! :D

[RedHedd]

The polls in California are open for three more hours; 4 more hours in Hawaii (or is it 5?). It ain't over till it's over .... and it's going to be a LONG night!

[PJ's Mom]

It's not looking good for Kerry supporters already. :(

[heinz57_79]

I know.... But there are still a lot of states left. I feel nauseaus... There is so much riding on this election.

oh hell... if bush wins, i'll just move to Canada! lol

[RICHARD]

I really long for the days when you voted, watched a little TV, went to sleep and found out who was the president was while you were standing in your driveway, reading the newspaper while you were almost naked underneath your robe......


THAT was the closest SEX AND POLITICS ever got.....:cool:

[heinz57_79]

Originally posted by RICHARD
I really long for the days when you voted, watched a little TV, went to sleep and found out who was the president was while you were standing in your driveway, reading the newspaper while you were almost naked underneath your robe......


THAT was the closest SEX AND POLITICS ever got.....:cool:

LoL Gee, that'd be nice. Naked.... oh.. what?... I'm sorry... I got sidetracked there... what were we talking about again?

[tatsxxx11]

We all have our "fears" re: what will happen if the "other guy" wins. I voted for Kerry but think that Bush will win and have the beginning. Still, Kerry is ahead in electoral votes. I just don't think people are willing to make a change while we are at war. Bush is ahead in Fla., and that's very telling:( But there's a good chance Kerry will win the popular vote but lose the electoral vote, which would be very upsetting for us again as a county, to endure yet again. I definitely think we need to do something to change the electoral sytem to more fairly allow the will, and vote of the people to be heard. Right now, it's all down to a few "key" states.

[Sirrahsim]

Bush is ahead in the popular vote at this point!
*roots him on*

[tatsxxx11]

Hard as it is to resist "correcting" the commet made above, alas I must.

Bush is ahead in the popular vote at this point!
*roots him on*

*resists the urge to correct statements made above*


If the above comment re: erroneously commenting that I said Kerry was ahead in the popular vote, was directed at me...:) I didn't say he was. I said he was ahead in electoral vote, as reported by all networks and the cable stations. . My comment was that it was possible that he, Kerry, MIGHT win the popular vote, but lose the election. Hope that helped to clarify my comments;)

[Sirrahsim]

nope, I'm sorry it wasn't about the voting in particular:) I shouldn't have said anything at all, sorry to confuse! I'll go take that out

[tatsxxx11]

No problem:) It's nail biting time for us all:D

[RubyMutt]

I think we will have a long night ahead of us...

I have CNN.com open and Peter Jennings on in the living room. Bush is in the lead right now :(

I really don't want to go to sleep tonight thinking Bush has been reelected.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by RubyMutt
I think we will have a long night ahead of us...

I have CNN.com open and Peter Jennings on in the living room. Bush is in the lead right now :(

I really don't want to go to sleep tonight thinking Bush has been reelected.

Just think of the fun you'll have should Kerry win.......and your robe flies open in the driveway!!!;)


-------------------------------------------------------------

I heard on the radio last night that doctors have named a new malady PEAS.

Post Election Anxiety Syndrome..


I am more afraid of our elected officials than I am of terrorists....


I know where to find my elected officials.
;)

---------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. the sun will rise in the east and set in the west....the only difference is the guy driving the bus..........You just have to remember to give the new guy a chance.....he doesn't know the route.......yet.

[BCBlondie]

I totally agree with you, heinz57_79. I know more people signed up to vote in California than ever this year... but since Bush seems to be ahead, it makes me wish I had registered to vote too!!! *gulps and is VERY worried*


I am more afraid of our elected officials than I am of terrorists....
Ditto! :\
*bites nails*

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by RubyMutt
Peter Jennings on in the living room.

What is Jennings on and why is he in YOUR living room????:eek:

[aly]

Originally posted by heinz57_79

If Bush wins, I fear for this country. I fear for the rights of the GLBT community, I fear for the rights of women who are looked at as 2nd class citizens by the Bush admin. I fear for the much needed medical research, the fund for which will be decreased as Bush throws us into more war, more death and more pointless killing. All I can do at this point is keep my fingers crossed.


I agree. My stomach is upside down right now :( I really thought it would be closer.

It ain't over til its over though.

[Sirrahsim]

Watching the election on Japanese TV is the best. I can only understand a fraction of what the talking heads are blah blah blahing about, but they have the same real time graphics as the American News Channels...
kind of a pointless comment, but I hate the speculating talking heads:mad:

[christa]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
Watching the election on Japanese TV is the best. I can only understand a fraction of what the talking heads are blah blah blahing about, but they have the same real time graphics as the American News Channels...
kind of a pointless comment, but I hate the speculating talking heads:mad:

I'll bet that is funny!


I think everyone will agree . . . let's hope that there's a clear cut winner TONIGHT and not drag this out for weeks & months!

Looking good for Bush so far though ;)

(Sorry, had to add that)

[tatsxxx11]

My husband, who is Japanese, is in Japan now and I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say re: the commentary! Sirrahism, I'll translate for you:D

[Pam]

Someone just commented on ABC (I forget who) that no matter who wins there will be some very angry people tomorrow. Can't say I disagree with that. :p (Keep those red states coming!) :)

[christa]

Originally posted by Pam
Someone just commented on ABC (I forget who) that no matter who wins there will be some very angry people tomorrow. Can't say I disagree with that. :p (Keep those red states coming!) :)

Oh, you know there will be! There's already been so much anger out of both sides.

Boy, I can't wait to get up in the morning, pour my first cup of coffee, and turn on the TV.

[Kater]

The polls will be open for another hour and a half here in Hawaii.

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by christa
I think everyone will agree . . . let's hope that there's a clear cut winner TONIGHT and not drag this out for weeks & months!

EXACTLY!


still not looking great for Kerry :(

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I wasn't fast enough to get all the states written down but Peter Jennings just said that in the following states, polls are closed but it is too close to call yet.

Colorado
Florida
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Ohio

and a few more that I can't remember.

Definitely a nail biter and definitely angry people tomorrow.

[Samantha Puppy]

I'd like to know how they can "call" states and project a winner when only 1% of the precincts are reporting and one candidate's only 1-2 percentage points above the other.

Everyone needs to remember to take everything the news channels are saying/projecting/estimating with a teeny, tiny grain of salt. Let's not forget 4 years ago when they all projected, changed their minds and projected something else, changed their minds, said it was too close to call, changed their minds... etc. - remember?

That said, I am liking the ratio of red states to blue and I hope that Bush wins the big ones like Ohio and Florida. I don't want Skerry in the White House.

[Kfamr]

I'd rather it last for weeks than have Bush win. :p

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Can't watch all the results... i gotta get to bed...
but GO BUSH!

[sammy101]

Originally posted by heinz57_79



If Bush wins, I fear for this country. I fear for the rights of the GLBT community, I fear for the rights of women who are looked at as 2nd class citizens by the Bush admin. I fear for the much needed medical research, the fund for which will be decreased as Bush throws us into more war, more death and more pointless killing. All I can do at this point is keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks for letting me rant! :D

ditto!:( im not an American,(im canadian) but i live in the U,S.and im still afraid off all these terrorists and stuff.I dont feel safe with Bush running the country that i have to live in,personally i would feel much for comfortable with Kerry.

[GraciesMommy]

Go Red States! Go Bush~!

[Sirrahsim]

Originally posted by tatsxxx11
My husband, who is Japanese, is in Japan now and I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say re: the coommentary! Sirrahism, I'll translate for you:D


hehe:D :D I swear, they speak so quickly on Japanese TV that I find it hard to believe that even someone who is fluent could understand it!! It goes a mile a minute:D

By the way:
GO RED!!! Vote *BUSH* for a safer America!!!!

[micki76]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
I'd like to know how they can "call" states and project a winner when only 1% of the precincts are reporting and one candidate's only 1-2 percentage points above the other.

That said, I am liking the ratio of red states to blue and I hope that Bush wins the big ones like Ohio and Florida. I don't want Skerry in the White House.

I don't understand that either. :confused:

LOL at "Skerry".

[tatsxxx11]

Sirrahism, you know, no matter who I speak with, from whatever country, the opinon is always the same..."the other guy" speaks too fast! :D:D:D "Lost in Translation??";)

[Aspen and Misty]

Originally posted by Pam
Someone just commented on ABC (I forget who) that no matter who wins there will be some very angry people tomorrow. Can't say I disagree with that. :p (Keep those red states coming!) :)

Agreed!

If Kerry wins the whole school is taking a day to mourn :rolleyes: Seriously though. The student body has deced that if Kerry wins we will be absent. I know at least a hundred people who are going to do it to, and I know they will cause they are crazy like that. As for me, I need my sick days ::cough:: I'm always sick :rolleyes: other whys I'd take it off in support of there cause, not that it will change anything!

LOL. People walk around with Buch Pins and Bumper Stickers on there trappers, shirts, books, notebooks, lockers etc. etc. It's funny.

We did a mock election at school and I think 85% voted for Bush.

My home town is VERY much a Bush town!

Ash :)

[heinz57_79]

Originally posted by sammy101
ditto!:( im not an American,(im canadian) but i live in the U,S.and im still afraid off all these terrorists and stuff.I dont feel safe with Bush running the country that i have to live in,personally i would feel much for comfortable with Kerry.

Tell ya what, Sammy... Bush wins, we'll both move to Canada! hehehe

I've got such a tummy ache right now. I can't wait til Bush wins! Who needs equal rights anyway? :rolleyes: :p

[popcornbird]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Bush can't win! He CAN'T!!!!

*sniff*

I'm seriously going to cry if he wins again.

[aly]

Originally posted by popcornbird

I'm seriously going to cry if he wins again.

I think I will too. My boyfriend just had to pull me away from the TV because I was getting too stressed. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Kfamr]

I'll be even more scared about flying to Utah if Bush "runs" our country again.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by aly
I think I will too. My boyfriend just had to pull me away from the TV because I was getting too stressed. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Same here! My parents had to pull me away from the T.V. I have a stomach ache just thinking about it. But, at the same time, I can't wait until it's over..

I don't want Bush for another four years. C'mon Kerry! :(

[wolf_Q]

I honestly do not know who I would like to win. I don't strongly like or dislike either of them.

There's no guarantee what either of them say will actually happen if they are elected. I have a hard time believing politicians promises.

[heinz57_79]

hey PCB, come visit me and I'll give you free hot chocolate any time you want! hehehe (I work @ Sbux :) ) I still have hope for the states that haven't been processed yet, and for the polls that are still open.

COME ON KERRY!

(If bush wins I'm gonna get a bumper sticker that says, "Yes, I'm a lesbian but i don't do BUSH!" hehe )

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Aspen and Misty

My home town is VERY much a Bush town! My county is very much a Bush county in the otherwise very Democratic Maryland. It's like an oasis of common sense in the midst of a sea of liberal BS. I love it. I wouldn't want to live anywhere other than my county in this state.

[jazzzytina]

My husband and I voted for Kerry. We are both Christians and liberals. Yes, you can be both. We have prayed that God's will will be done in this election and have left it in His hands. Does that mean that we will embrace Bush if he wins? Not necessarily. We will support him as best we can as American citizens. But we have been sorely disappointed by his policies, his claims to be a "compassionate conservative", which he is not, and his divisiveness here at home and abroad. We've also been disappointed with mounting poverty, injustices, and suffering of those around us which is what we are called to help as compassionate individuals. We believe that the Bush camp is far more interested in political gain, oil and money than the cares of common people like me - how to pay the rent, how to support my sister who has MS, how to help the people at the homeless shelter, how to get along with other countries and live at peace.

For those of you who are nervous - pray that God's will will be done. Remember that God, the TRUE God, loves EVERYONE - sinner and saint, man, woman, gay, lesbian, all races, all religions, all nations. Heck, He even loves Richard :) but then again, who doesn't?

No matter what, God is in control and it will all be all right.

Peace,
Tina & Tad

[jazzzytina]

LOL Heinz 57 on the bumper sticker! You go! :)

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Just in, Kerry takes California and Pennsylvania - two HUGE states!

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I can't wait till the West Coast results start coming in. I'm almost positive Kerry will win in California, but God knows about the rest.

Ditto that!

Our polls just closed 10 minutes ago. C'mon liberal Washington, Kerry needs you!!!

[heinz57_79]

Tina, thank you... It's nice to know there are some out there who can still balance religious beliefs with what is just simply right. :) For so many it is either religion or something else.

197-188..... come oooooooooooooon Kerry! lol

[sammy101]

Originally posted by heinz57_79
Tell ya what, Sammy... Bush wins, we'll both move to Canada! hehehe

I've got such a tummy ache right now. I can't wait til Bush wins! Who needs equal rights anyway? :rolleyes: :p

lol,of course we will;) :p

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Arizona to bush.

[heinz57_79]

stupid arizona

[Sirrahsim]

what's that website again? Someone put up a link but I can't find it. I'm sick of staring at the TV but still want to keep up with what is going on!

[heinz57_79]

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/

[Sirrahsim]

thanks bunches.. CBS has Bush up to 219 and Kerry at 199, I'm so confused

[Sirrahsim]

The CNN site says at 95% of florida is in and 52% go to Bush while oops, I meant 47% got to Kerry.. We'll see how that plays out..

[Sirrahsim]

I feel sick watching all of this and thinking about the potential long term ramifications of Kerry getting into office. Will my yet unborn baby grow up in a country without sexual responsibility? Where it is acceptable to just murder an unborn baby rather than taking responsibility for ones actions? Will my child have to learn Spanish to fit in at school rather than English?Will my child grow up in a nation where the government gives hand outs to people too irresponsible to take care of themselves? Will my husband and I be safe over here on foreign soil for the next few years without the strong hand of protection that we have been getting recently? Lots of unanswered questions...

Go red! Vote Bush for a safer America!!

[Sirrahsim]

I guess I should clarify that I am more concerned about the type of people that Kerry would appoint rather than Kerry himself...

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Florida to Bush.

Well, Missy, it's looking more and more like you won't have anything to worry about. At least I'm glad you think that way because now.....

[heinz57_79]

OMG!! I know this is a silly place to post this, but since there's quite a few people checking it out....

WE FOUND JOEY!!!! ALIVE!!!

He's been in our dresser. For almost 2 weeks!!! Thank goodess!!! I've got my blue-eyed boy back!


Ps. go kerry!

[Aspen and Misty]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
I feel sick watching all of this and thinking about the potential long term ramifications of Kerry getting into office. Will my yet unborn baby grow up in a country without sexual responsibility? Where it is acceptable to just murder an unborn baby rather than taking responsibility for ones actions? Will my child have to learn Spanish to fit in at school rather than English?Will my child grow up in a nation where the government gives hand outs to people too irresponsible to take care of themselves? Will my husband and I be safe over here on foreign soil for the next few years without the strong hand of protection that we have been getting recently? Lots of unanswered questions...

Go red! Vote Bush for a safer America!!

Very well said!

YAY for Bush! Take Ohio! :D

Ash :D

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
Go red! Vote Bush for a safer America!!
*laughs*
Safer America with Bush as president... I'd like to see that! *leaves the country* >.<

[Sirrahsim]

Congratulations! I dont' know who or what Joey is, but I'm assuming because of the venue that he is your pet:) It's so scary to have a pet come up missing:) Congrats on finding him:)

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by BCBlondie
*laughs*
Safer America with Bush as president... I'd like to see that! *leaves the country* >.<

*giggles*

c'mon Kerry.....

[heinz57_79]

lol Di... need a roomie in Latvia?

[Lady's Human]

Just remember....

Whoever wins, we will still have a constitution, the republic will still stand. The US Survived US Grant, LBJ, Nixon, and Carter.....

If it survived those, it can survive anyone.

[Sirrahsim]

Originally posted by BCBlondie
*laughs*
Safer America with Bush as president... I'd like to see that! *leaves the country* >.<


You come live over here on foreign soil for a while. You'd see things from a whole different perspective. A lot of those absentee ballots that are pending will be from overseas military members, and there sure as heck aren't going to be many overseas military members silly enough to thumb their nose at safety by voting for Kerry... Just my opinion and the opinion of thousands of others over here on the otherside of the globe... But I'll stop there because I'm trying to be civil:):)

[heinz57_79]

sirrahsim, yep.. joey is my cat... I thought he was dead. There's a thread in Cat General about the tragedy in our home. He's been missing for almost 2 weeks!

Ladys Human, we do have a constitution. But what if our Commander in Chief is looking to change it to take away rights? what then?

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
You come live over here on foreign soil for a while. You'd see things from a whole different perspective. A lot of those absentee ballots that are pending will be from overseas military members, and there sure as heck aren't going to be many overseas military members silly enough to thumb their nose at safety by voting for Kerry... Just my opinion and the opinion of thousands of others over here on the otherside of the globe... But I'll stop there because I'm trying to be civil:):)
Um... you obviously don't know me, do you? I AM from foreign soil... I'm from a country called Latvia in northeastern Europe. :D Latvian was my first language! I'm not even American... so yes, I do see more than just one perspective. ;)

[Sirrahsim]

oh no! poor Kitty, he must be starving! Glad you found him:)


P.S. Vote Bush for a safer America!!

:

[Sirrahsim]

exactly, you are NOT an American affiliated with the military living on foreign soil. That is what I was talking about...

[Lady's Human]

For an amendment to be adopted, it takes 2/3 of both the house and the senate to pass, and then it must be ratified by 3/4 of the states. It is a very long, involved process, which is why there are so few amendments.

[veegan]

Just remember....

Whoever wins, we will still have a constitution, the republic will still stand. The US Survived US Grant, LBJ, Nixon, and Carter.....

If it survived those, it can survive anyone.

lol good point

Im still scared though.

One more for moving to Canada?



**go kerry, go!**

[heinz57_79]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
exactly, you are NOT an American affiliated with the military living on foreign soil. That is what I was talking about...

As an American who has spent many years overseas, I'd be more worried now than ever to be in another country. I'd be afraid I'd feel the general hate towards AMericans, for starting wars and for sticking our nose into places where we really shouldn't be sticking it. Bush was the one who KNEW there were WMD in Iraq. Let's bomb them! Oh. What? There aren't any? Oops! My bad! They say Osama is a big factor in this election. Well, Bush has been looking for him for 4 years. That's not really progress. Americans are disliked all over the world now, because we seem to havea trigger happy president in office, who really knows NOTHING about the military.

[CathyBogart]

*Yawn* And y'all have to realize that with all the lawsuits and bull* that's going to go on for the next few weeks it's going to be awhile before we know for sure, right?

Kerry, save our civil liberties!!

[Sirrahsim]

That is the opinion of someone who doesn't live here now...

There is a reason that the terrorists want Kerry to win.. You'd really rather have a push over who invites terrorists in than a heavy handed" trigger happy" president that the terrorists are afraid of?:eek:

To protect my butt in case I'm being monitored:
I am not a military member. I can not officially speak for my husband in regards to his political beliefs as relating to his being a military member. I am expressing my opinions, blah blah blah...

[Sirrahsim]

Gooooo Ohio! Make me proud to call you my home state!! And make it quick:D I have to leave for work in 40 minutes!


Goooo red! Vote Bush for a safer America!

[Lady's Human]

Bush wasn't the only world leader who had information leading him to believe that Iraq had chemical weapons. Russia, (The KGB's successor org is very efficient, if not polite), Great Britain, and other intelligence services all had what they though was reliable information that Iraq had WMD's.

That having been said, the WMD issue was only PART of the reason that the invasion occurred. Saddam had many ties with terrorists, (Hamas, Abu Nidal, Islamic Jihad, the militant wings of the PLO, etc) and was funding terrorist attacks. There were also ties with Al Quaeda, as outlined by the 9/11 commission's report. Hussein was repeatedly in violation of the cease fire agreement which ended Desert Storm, was in violation of the UN resolutions which placed sanctions on the country, and was shooting at coalition aircraft on an almost daily basis while they were enforcing the no fly zone. He was also using the UN oil for food program as a way to bribe his way out of sanctions, which is the real bomb contained in the Duelfer report.
The main reasons that Germany and France did not want the US to go into Iraq were the bribery and weapons sales from Iraq, and the debts which Hussein had incurred with those nations. Russia was against the invasion mainly because of the $40 Billion in development contracts which Hussein had signed with Yukos, the russian state oil giant, and illegal weapons sales to Iraq.

The US has been hated or eyed Jealously in the world for over 100 years, with the exception of brief periods of time when the US bailed other countries out of their foreign adventures (WW1 and WW2, Vietnam (You're welcome again, France) and the cold war ). France even bucked US leadership in NATO shortly after the founding of the alliance and was only a marginal participant. The concept of alliances as long term solutions are a fallacy, as they have never been useful over the long term. The US relationship with Great Britain over the last 60 years is the exception rather than the rule.

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
Goooo red! Vote Bush for a safer America!
You don't even live in America!! LOL What are you all worried about? -.-' Safer America.. HA

[Lady's Human]

She's a military dependent living overseas, I'd dare say that she has a right to have an opinion on what makes the US Safe.

[Sirrahsim]

thanks Lady's Human... I'm not going to bother responding any more to that particular topic.


Go Red! Vote Bush for a safer America!

[heinz57_79]

PCB, think of it this way... in 08, Hilary will kick his @$$ from here to Osama's doorstep! hehehe

GOOOOOO HILARY!!!!! ;)

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by heinz57_79
PCB, think of it this way... in 08, Hilary will kick his @$$ from here to Osama's doorstep! hehehe

GOOOOOO HILARY!!!!! ;)

Oh how wonderful that would be! I love Hilary :)

C'mon Kerry, there's still hope!!

[heinz57_79]

Hilary WILL run in 08 for sure... she just needs to have Oprah as her VP.. lol

Let's go Kerry, Let's go!

[Lady's Human]

It would all depend on who is running for the Republicans, as Bush cannot run again if he in fact wins this time.

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
It would all depend on who is running for the Republicans, as Bush cannot run again if he in fact wins this time.
Good!! Thank gawd for that! Lol

[RubyMutt]

Washington has made me proud :D

Woo Hoo! Kerry has the whole west coast :D

[heinz57_79]

Ditto! That's something else to console me.... if bush gets reelected, we'll only have to deal with his pathetic behind for another 4 yrs... then NEVER AGAIN!!!!!

[Aspen and Misty]

I'm still upset that Kerry won my state. What a shameful day for PA. :(

I had high hopes. O well, not the first time PA let me down and it won't be the last.

Ash

[Sirrahsim]

The kids just got out of school here, we have a bus stop right next to my building. As the kids got off the bus I heard a young (probably 14-15) kid yell out F*$% Bush... I swear the morals of this country are going down the drain..
By the way, I would feel the same if the kid had said F*$% Kerry, it's the language that seriously bothers me...




Go Bush!! Vote Bush for a safer America!

[Jamieejo85]

UGh...Bush won Ohio!!!:mad: :mad:

[Sirrahsim]

C'mon Ohio!! I have to leave for work in 10 minutes! Count! Count! Count!

Go Bush! Vote Bush for a safer America!

[Aspen and Misty]

YAHOO! Bush won OHIO!!! YAY!!!

Ash :D

[Sirrahsim]

Fox News gave Ohio to Bush... I want him to win but I'm not going to celebrate until at least 2 networks call it...

Go Bush!! Vote Bush for a safer America!!

[Sirrahsim]

Fox tends to favor Bush, CNN tends to favor Kerry. When CNN sucks it up and admits that Ohio goes to Bush, then I'll break out the happy dance:)


Go Bush!! Vote Bush for a safer America!

[Sirrahsim]

Well, it's been real, but I have to go to work:( :( See ya'll later.

Go Bush! Vote Bush for a safer America!

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by popcornbird
The west coast rocks. ;) Doesn't it? :p
YES it does! Except.. Alaska.. LOL

[Jamieejo85]

Unfortunately the best Kerry can hope for is a tie and then it will go to the house. But the republican party controls the house so we all know who they will be choosing...ugh!

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by Jamieejo85
Unfortunately the best Kerry can hope for is a tie and then it will go to the house. But the republican party controls the house so we all know who they will be choosing...ugh!
:( :( :( :( I don't like this... I don't like this at all.. *sighs*

[Jamieejo85]

Me neither BCBlondie.

[Jamieejo85]

I am watching NBC and they said that Bush has not officially won Ohio yet and there are still 250,000 votes to be counted..so Kerry supporters lets keep our fingers crossed!!
~Jamie

[RubyMutt]

*fingers crossed*

[heinz57_79]

I'm still hoping that Kerry will come up in the home stretch.... Of course, Bush plays dirty so........ *shrugs*

[Lady's Human]

Bush plays dirty? Both sides are dirty as hell when it comes to election litigation. At least Nixon had the class to concede and not force a recount when he lost to JFK.........wh owon because of Cook County's Vote early and vote often policy

[aly]

Well, I knew Texas would go Republican, but interestingly enough, my county (the capital of Texas!!!!) went to Kerry 56% ! We're a tiny blue speck among a sea of red counties.

"Bush" can never be used in the same sentence with the words "safe" and "America". That is just laughable. I'm sorry, I wasn't going to comment, but it got annoying to read that SO many times in a row :o :o :o

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by aly
"Bush" can never be used in the same sentence with the words "safe" and "America". That is just laughable. I'm sorry, I wasn't going to comment, but it got annoying to read that SO many times in a row :o :o :o
LOL!! Ditto!

[heinz57_79]

I'm off to try and get some sleep before i have to get up for work. Come on, Kerry! You need to win! My rights depend on it! :(

Good nite all!

[Lady's Human]

PCB, as often as she wants?

BTW, just to let everyone know, I have a personal dislike bordering on hatred and disgust for Kerry, I'm just ambivalent about bush, and sincerely wish there was a better third choice.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by aly
"Bush" can never be used in the same sentence with the words "safe" and "America". That is just laughable. I'm sorry, I wasn't going to comment, but it got annoying to read that SO many times in a row :o :o :o

Definitely agree with you there! So childish...:rolleyes:

[Pam]

Well I am not going to get involved in any arguments today. Just too plain happy. :) Pure and simple, the people have spoken and let's get on with our lives. :)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

How can anyone figure America will be safe with Kerry. Our nations enemy wants Kerry to be president. And why? Because OBL knows Kerry wouldn't do anything but wait for everyone else to give us permission to retialate... while OBL plots and plans! Bush takes action... .

I am ready to celebrate ... when Bush wins.
And not to start another argument... but what about my rights as a christian. They are being stripped away
Christian kids can't express their religios beliefs at school.. what a shame! A kid at my church got wrote up for talking about Jesus!! WOW... what freedom.... seems like christians don't have a freedom of religion or freedom of SPEECH anymore. I love this country and it will be a sad day when God is completely removed!!!:(


GO BUSH!!

[Pam]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
How can anyone figure America will be safe with Kerry. Our nations enemy wants Kerry to be president. And why? Because OBL knows Kerry wouldn't do anything but wait for everyone else to give us permission to retialate... while OBL plots and plans! Bush takes action... .

I am ready to celebrate ... when Bush wins.
And not to start another argument... but what about my rights as a christian. They are being stripped away
Christian kids can't express their religios beliefs at school.. what a shame! A kid at my church got wrote up for talking about Jesus!! WOW... what freedom.... seems like christians don't have a freedom of religion or freedom of SPEECH anymore. I love this country and it will be a sad day when God is completely removed!!!:(
GO BUSH!!

Sara you are so correct and a whole thread topic could be started about the loss of freedom already for Christians in this country. My sister-in-law is a teacher and was told she may no longer wear her cross to school. Talk about stripping someone of their freedom! Thankfully there are some excellent Christian lawyers out there who are fighting this kind of stuff but it's an uphill battle.

[Christiansmommy]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
How can anyone figure America will be safe with Kerry. Our nations enemy wants Kerry to be president. And why? Because OBL knows Kerry wouldn't do anything but wait for everyone else to give us permission to retialate... while OBL plots and plans! Bush takes action... .

I am ready to celebrate ... when Bush wins.
And not to start another argument... but what about my rights as a christian. They are being stripped away
Christian kids can't express their religios beliefs at school.. what a shame! A kid at my church got wrote up for talking about Jesus!! WOW... what freedom.... seems like christians don't have a freedom of religion or freedom of SPEECH anymore. I love this country and it will be a sad day when God is completely removed!!!:(


GO BUSH!!

I second all of what you said!!! GO BUSH GO!! People seem to forget that Christian's have rights too!

[dukedogsmom]

Anyone want to move to Canada?

[jazzzytina]

I feel sick watching all of this and thinking about the potential long term ramifications of Kerry getting into office. Will my yet unborn baby grow up in a country without sexual responsibility? Where it is acceptable to just murder an unborn baby rather than taking responsibility for ones actions? Will my child have to learn Spanish to fit in at school rather than English?Will my child grow up in a nation where the government gives hand outs to people too irresponsible to take care of themselves? Will my husband and I be safe over here on foreign soil for the next few years without the strong hand of protection that we have been getting recently? Lots of unanswered questions...

Your unborn baby needs to be taught sexual responsibility from his/her parents. I believe that most women who have abortions do so in great emotional distress and guilt and I don't think that it's the "common everyday occurrence" for birth control that the Republicans would have us believe. Learning Spanish is a great job skill so you're ok there. Now, let's talk about handouts. My sister has Multiple Sclerosis. She can barely walk, much less hold down a job. SHE HAS BEEN DENIED BY DISABILITY 4 TIMES. My husband and I have to support her because she can't get a "government handout". Foreign soil? Well, that depends on if America keeps pissing the rest of the world off.

Remember the Great Commandments - that you love your NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF (whether that neighbor is Hispanic, disabled, gay, a woman who had an abortion, a Muslim) and love God with all your heart, soul, mind and body.

[Logan]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Anyone want to move to Canada?

Nope!

[christa]

For those of you who think we're being "childish" by celebrating . . . can you honestly say that you wouldn't be as excited if Kerry had been on the winning side?

sirrahsim: I agree with you completely! Our country is much safer with GWB!

I am very pleased with the election results, electoral count & popular vote.

That's all I'm going to say . . . for now . . . don't want to get into any arguments today.

;)

[dukedogsmom]

Women, get ready to lose more and more of your rights. Hey, who cares how many more dead soldiers we have as long as the taxes don't get raised, right?

[popcornbird]

It really all depends on Ohio now. Last time it was Florida...this time Ohio. *sigh*

*waits impatiently*

:(

Val, ditto........everyone's going to lose their rights now...if Bush wins. It isn't over yet!

[Maresche]

It ain't over yet. Ohio still hasn't factored in one way or the other yet and neither side wins without Ohio.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

[Maresche]

Originally posted by popcornbird
It really all depends on Ohio now. Last time it was Florida...this time Ohio. *sigh*

One thing that makes Ohio significantly different from Florida in the last Presidential election.
Our governor isn't related to either candidate....

[PJ's Mom]

And here I was relieved to know that the fighting was over. It continues on...

Go Kerry!

[christa]

With Kerry being about 125,000 short, he would need over 70% of the provisional ballot vote to make up 125,000 votes. And that's assuming that ALL of the provisional ballots are legit.

In Illinois, only 17% of provisional ballots were legit. I know, Kerry won that state, but it gives you some idea about provisional ballots.

[Maresche]

All I'm saying is that all the votes in Ohio have not been counted yet and Ken Blackwell (in his first wise decision so far) is not going to validate any result until they are.

Despite who wins, the country still loses because we will still be divided.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Maresche
Despite who wins, the country still loses because we will still be divided. America has always been divided. Not everyone here wanted to fight the Revolutionary War. Half the Americans didn't want the Mexican War. Need I mention the Civil War? The list goes on and on, and not just in regards to wars.

But if America made it through presidents like Grant and Nixon, I am sure that everyone can suck it up and live through Bush's second term, should that be what happens.

[micki76]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
BTW, just to let everyone know, I have a personal dislike bordering on hatred and disgust for Kerry, I'm just ambivalent about bush, and sincerely wish there was a better third choice.

Ditto that statement!

[Kfamr]

What about the rights of those of us who have no religious beliefs.. and how religious beliefs of others are being shoved down our throats and in front of living our lives???


I'm starting to believe seperation of church and state is just a big ole joke.

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Anyone want to move to Canada?


My bags are packed.

[Logan]

Originally posted by popcornbird
It really all depends on Ohio now. Last time it was Florida...this time Ohio. *sigh*

*waits impatiently*

:(

Val, ditto........everyone's going to lose their rights now...if Bush wins. It isn't over yet!

I have a simple question for you, Popcornbird, and Valerie. What rights have we lost in the last four years? I'm a female too and I just don't see it. :confused: What do you think he's going to do in the next 4 years that he didn't do in the first four that is going to take away our rights? A President is a figurehead, but without the support of the Congress, he can't do anything on his own. Right?

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by Kfamr
I'm starting to believe seperation of church and state is just a big ole joke.

From an agnostic standpoint like my own it often seems that way to me as well :( I have to remind myself about how many US citizens are so devout to their religions. I have no problem with citizens and politicians putting so much faith in God, but yes, I sure as heck do not like seeing religion playing such a key role in government. Represent the majority I suppose...

Sorry my thoughts are so scattered and random... I just woke up, but had to comment :o

Off to work now... C'mon Kerry, we need a miracle! ;)

[dukedogsmom]

He's already been working on it. First by stating that the death of a pregnant woman is killing two people. That's no matter how far along they are. Also, trying to make abortion illegal. Forget how many unwanted kids are waiting to be adopted. Let's have more! I'm not saying it should be used as birth control. However, if someone becomes pregnant as accident/rape, etc, then they should have the right of choice. Also, I'm not for gay marriages and all but who are we to say how they should live their lives? With Bush, there is no separation of church and state and all the sheeple just folllow him, happy and oblivious.

[christa]

Originally posted by Logan
I have a simple question for you, Popcornbird, and Valerie. What rights have we lost in the last four years?

You beat me to it! LOL . . . I was thinking about this over my coffee and I actually just logged on to ask the same question!

What rights are you talking about women loosing?

[christa]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
He's already been working on it. First by stating that the death of a pregnant woman is killing two people.

How is this taking away a woman's rights? Or anyone's rights for that matter?

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Logan
I have a simple question for you, Popcornbird, and Valerie. What rights have we lost in the last four years? I'm a female too and I just don't see it. What do you think he's going to do in the next 4 years that he didn't do in the first four that is going to take away our rights? A President is a figurehead, but without the support of the Congress, he can't do anything on his own. Right?

Thank you! I am a 26 year old woman and voted for Bush in 2000 AND yesterday. I fail to see where I've lost any rights.


Originally posted by Kfamr
What about the rights of those of us who have no religious beliefs.. and how religious beliefs of others are being shoved down our throats and in front of living our lives???

I'm starting to believe seperation of church and state is just a big ole joke. Move to Maryland. I'm serious. If what you're saying is commonplace in Florida, it is exactly opposite up here. My polling place is a school gymnasium and yesterday going into vote, I was told to cover the small 1" crucifix I wear around my neck. Ridiculous!

Up here, parents fight to have script changes in any plays that make mention of the word "God" - no matter what the context is. Choral concerts at Christmastime now consist solely of non-religious songs. My (Jewish) chorus teacher from high school got in tons of trouble for having us sing a beautiful Italian song called "Jesu Bambino" AND a Jewish Hannukah song! In my school, it was a 75+ year tradition for us to sing the Hallelujah Chorus at the winter concert... not any more.

So move up here. Up here, you will be quite happy to have all your rights catered to while mine are trampled on.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
He's already been working on it. First by stating that the death of a pregnant woman is killing two people. Ummm... that's a GOOD thing. If you had a daughter who was pregnant and she was killed, wouldn't you want justice done for both her and your unborn grandchild??

You lost me on this one.

:confused:

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by Kfamr
What about the rights of those of us who have no religious beliefs.. and how religious beliefs of others are being shoved down our throats and in front of living our lives???


I'm starting to believe seperation of church and state is just a big ole joke.

Seperation of church and state was never ment the way it is interpreted now... but that is a too long a debate.

I believe anyone without religious beliefs have rights. They have the right not to worship.. (the original seperation of church and state).. they have a right to teach(or shove down throats if you will) evolution and the big bang theory.... while christians can't even talk about GOD in school can't pray, can't bring their Bible, can't even wear a simple t-shirt stating their beliefs. One beautiful thing about this country is freedom of religion... whether it be muslim or athiest... unless your a christian.:(

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by popcornbird
That really doesn't make sense. We have no more rights than Christians do. :confused: What rights don't Christians have??? That's what I don't understand.

:confused: I think she means that Christians are targeted more than are smaller groups of other religions.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
I think she means that Christians are targeted more than are smaller groups of other religions.

I know that's what she meant, but that's what I don't get. Nowadays, if there's any religious group that is *targeted*, its the Muslims.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by popcornbird

I don't get that at all. We have no more rights than Christians do. :confused: What rights don't Christians have??? That's what I don't understand.

:confused:

From what I hear muslim children are excused from their school classes at their times for prayer... excuse me if I am wrong... i know it is hearsay.... but christian kids cant even say Jesus.:(

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
I think she means that Christians are targeted more than are smaller groups of other religions.

Honestly, I think that is baloney.

Christianity surrounds us everyday of our lives in this country. Around Christmas and Easter time, you cannot walk into any store without seeing Christmas trees or Easter eggs. (True, this really has a lot to do with the commercialization of our country), but my point is, this is done for Christian holidays, not Yom Kippur or Ramadan.

And I don't remember hearing about a single Christian attacked in the fuvor after 9/11, but I did hear of several Sikhs who were. And for those who may not know Sikhs is a faith from India, not the middle east and is not the same thing as Islam.

I do believe that Christians are favored in this country above other faiths if for no other reason than they are always the majority.

[Logan]

My question was in regards to these two statements from Valerie and Popcornbird.


Women, get ready to lose more and more of your rights.




Val, ditto........everyone's going to lose their rights now...if Bush wins. It isn't over yet!

I was interested in what specifically has been lost by women in the last four years and what you think will be lost in the coming four years if Bush is re-elected. That was all.

I'm on my way out the door, but will be BAAAAAAAACK!!!! :D

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by Maresche
Honestly, I think that is baloney.

Christianity surrounds us everyday of our lives in this country. Around Christmas and Easter time, you cannot walk into any store without seeing Christmas trees or Easter eggs. (True, this really has a lot to do with the commercialization of our country), but my point is, this is done for Christian holidays, not Yom Kippur or Ramadan.

And I don't remember hearing about a single Christian attacked in the fuvor after 9/11, but I did hear of several Sikhs who were. And for those who may not know Sikhs is a faith from India, not the middle east and is not the same thing as Islam.

I do believe that Christians are favored in this country above other faiths if for no other reason than they are always the majority.

are you a christian?

Speaking as a christian the above statements don't fit true in my life... You can't say "Merry Christmas" in a lot of places... only happy holidays.... and a lot of other examples...
But what else would you expect from a country that was founded on God...
How would it work if a group of nonbelievers went into another country and tried to make them stop celebrating the holidays of that country's beliefs???

[LKPike]

Honestly, both sides are liars and thiefs - dont deny it cause its politics. EVERYONE lies :-p What you should vote for is who tells lies that are less hurtful than the other guys lies. Yes Bush lied and now we have familys in America whos sons and daughters died in Iraq over FUEL, destroyed. Theyll never have that person, the love of that person, the happiness that person brought back into their lives ever again. Yes Kerry has his own lies, but hes honest about wanting to turn America back into the great country it was 4 years ago.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I don't know.......maybe things are different in Georgia. I used to hear Christian kids saying Jesus all the time in high school. Heck, we would have 'Jesus discussions' all the time at break. :p The Muslim kids don't talk about Jesus any less.

I truely think Christians are the most favored religious group in the US. You get vacation on Christmas and Easter.....all of your religious holidays. What about us? Its Ramadan now and we don't get no vacation. We won't even get vacation on Eid.....we skip school that day. I don't think Jews or others get their religious holidays recognized either. Its just the Christians. I fail to understand how Christians can say they're being denied of their rights. Maybe people who believe in God are being targetted, in a way, but it is totally not just Christians. Other faiths are targetted more.

The reason I agree with you is because this country was founded on christianity... I am sure in Pakastan or Israel they get days off for their beliefs.. just as we do. and maybe that is why it would seem we are favored... But as a christian i can tell you we are being targeted and being STRIPPED of our rights...

[aly]

I'm packing for Canada now .... scoot over Naomi, I'm moving in with ya.


Originally posted by christa
For those of you who think we're being "childish" by celebrating . . . can you honestly say that you wouldn't be as excited if Kerry had been on the winning side?


She wasn't celebrating. She was repeating the same words over and over in multiple messages in a row - with not even replies in between. It would have gotten on my nerves even if it was a Kerry supporter spouting that.

[dukedogsmom]

This is precisely one of the many reasons I didn't want him re-elected. Not to mention the issues with oil and wildlife.

«President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and sources told Time magazine that in his private practice he will not prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. He is also the author of a book
which suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying.
The Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee is responsible for offering expert scientific and medical advice to the FDA on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology, and related specialties. The committee's responsibilities include all contraceptive drugs and drugs used in performing medical abortion as well as drugs used for infertility treatments, hormone replacement therapy and labor and delivery.»

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I don't know.......maybe things are different in Georgia. I used to hear Christian kids saying Jesus all the time in high school. Heck, we would have 'Jesus discussions' all the time at break. :p The Muslim kids don't talk about Jesus any less.

I truely think Christians are the most favored religious group in the US. You get vacation on Christmas and Easter.....all of your religious holidays. What about us? Its Ramadan now and we don't get no vacation. We won't even get vacation on Eid.....we skip school that day. I don't think Jews or others get their religious holidays recognized either. Its just the Christians. I fail to understand how Christians can say they're being denied of their rights. Maybe people who believe in God are being targetted...anyone who believes in God sincerely, in a way, but it is totally not just Christians. Other faiths are targetted more.
I'm telling you, up here in the mid-Atlantic/northeast, things *are* different. We don't get Easter vacation up here. If the teacher's professional days happen to fall around that time, fine, but we don't get off specifically for Easter. The time off around Christmas used to be for Christmas, but now it's to divide fall semester from spring semester. But schools are now giving off for Rosh Hasshana (or however it's spelled).

I can't say Merry Christmas anymore - it's Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings. Children cannot sing any songs at their winter concerts that speak of Christmas. As I said above, my Jewish chorus teacher got in trouble for having us sing a beautiful Italian song called "Jesu Bambino". Bands can't even play Christmas tunes or any piece of music that mentions God, Jesus, hymns, prayers, etc.

I was asked to cover up my little 1" crucifix yesterday when going into a school to vote. A friend of mine was sent to the office after she crossed herself (she's Catholic) after she said a prayer during a test. She wasn't being obnoxious about it.

Sara luvs her Tinky is right - separation of church and state did not mean what it has become today, when it was first founded. The Church ran everything back then and this was our way of making sure that didn't happen. However, I fail to see how kids singing "Here comes old Saint Nick" or "Silent Night" or bands playing "O Holy Night" or crossing themselves in prayer is a threat to taking over the state. It's gotten way out of hand.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

However, I fail to see how kids singing "Here comes old Saint Nick" or "Silent Night" or bands playing "O Holy Night" or crossing themselves in prayer is a threat to taking over the state. It's gotten way out of hand.

AMEN!

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
are you a christian?

Speaking as a christian the above statements don't fit true in my life... You can't say "Merry Christmas" in a lot of places... only happy holidays.... and a lot of other examples...
But what else would you expect from a country that was founded on God...
How would it work if a group of nonbelievers went into another country and tried to make them stop celebrating the holidays of that country's beliefs???

I was born and raised Christian, but I would not consider myself a Christian now. There are some parts of the faith that I still believe in but there are other parts that I reject completely.

This country was founded on God but not strictly the Christian God. If you do some research on the founding fathers, most of them were Deists, meaning they believe in a higher power (God) but not Jesus Christ necessarily. Deists believe that God created the world and people but then kinda let 'em loose to see what they would do. So this country was not founded on Christianity if you get down the to nitty-gritty of it.

The only times I know of where religions don't get along with each other is when they are what I call "My way or the highway" religions. I do consider Christianity to be one of these religions for two reasons: 1) According to the strictest translation of Christianity, if you do not accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you are damned. Period. It doesn't matter if you lived a good life and doing everything else that Christianity considers important. 2) The foundation in Christianity that you must "spread the word." In my mind there are two ways of going about it; talking to people about it when they ask and trying to conform the world to Christianity by force if necessary. I believe many Christians take the second route, including George Bush.

If he is a Christian, that's fine with me and I have no problem with Christians as a whole. I do have a problem when they start imposing their beliefs on me by having their beliefs instated as law. Abortion and Animal rights issues are prime examples of this.

This country is a amalgamation of many different religions and faiths and it should stay that way with no religion getting preference before or after any other religion for none are any more or less worthy than any other.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by LKPike
hes honest about wanting to turn America back into the great country it was 4 years ago. Yes, back into a country that doesn't do anything when its Commander-in-Chief commits perjury. That's the kind of morals I want for my country! :rolleyes: I also liked how Clinton cut back our military - that was a really smart move. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that Bush is the greatest president we ever had or will have. He is the lesser of two evils though. Kerry's thoughts on globalization scared the bejesus out of me. Another thing that irked the crap out of me is that he couldn't pick a stance and go with it - and i'm not just talking lately, I'm talking throughout his political career. Being President doesn't mean being going with what's popular. I admire that Bush knows that some of his policies aren't exactly popular but he sticks with them anyway. It means he has integrity.

(These are my opinions. Feel free to disagree with them but don't tell me I'm wrong, just as I have never said that any Kerry supporter is wrong for feeling the way they do.)

[dukedogsmom]

I agree that all those things are really ridiculous and way overboard, the way PETA can sometimes be. That's pretty sad.
I was referring to what SamanthaPuppy had said about having to cover up her cross, Christmas songs, etc.

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
I'm telling you, up here in the mid-Atlantic/northeast, things *are* different. We don't get Easter vacation up here. If the teacher's professional days happen to fall around that time, fine, but we don't get off specifically for Easter. The time off around Christmas used to be for Christmas, but now it's to divide fall semester from spring semester. But schools are now giving off for Rosh Hasshana (or however it's spelled).

I can't say Merry Christmas anymore - it's Happy Holidays or Season's Greetings. Children cannot sing any songs at their winter concerts that speak of Christmas. As I said above, my Jewish chorus teacher got in trouble for having us sing a beautiful Italian song called "Jesu Bambino". Bands can't even play Christmas tunes or any piece of music that mentions God, Jesus, hymns, prayers, etc.

I was asked to cover up my little 1" crucifix yesterday when going into a school to vote. A friend of mine was sent to the office after she crossed herself (she's Catholic) after she said a prayer during a test. She wasn't being obnoxious about it.

Sara luvs her Tinky is right - separation of church and state did not mean what it has become today, when it was first founded. The Church ran everything back then and this was our way of making sure that didn't happen. However, I fail to see how kids singing "Here comes old Saint Nick" or "Silent Night" or bands playing "O Holy Night" or crossing themselves in prayer is a threat to taking over the state. It's gotten way out of hand.

Some of these examples are way out of line.

If you are at a Christmas concert, there shouldn't be anything wrong with playing Christmas music. But if it is a public school, all holidays that fall in that time should be represented (Kwanzaa, Christmas and Hannakah for example.

My biggest point is that this country really needs to wraps our minds and hearts around tolerance of other religions. None is more or less important/valid as another. But this is very difficult to do with a President who condemns those who don't feel the same way he does.

[christa]

On the news now . . .

AP: Sen Kerry calls Pres Bush to Concede

Looks like it's coming to an end! Finally . . .

[aly]

Breaking News Report on television ... Kerry will concede this afternoon :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[Maresche]

Originally posted by christa
On the news now . . .

AP: Sen Kerry calls Pres Bush to Concede

Looks like it's coming to an end! Finally . . .

I have to admit I am sorry to hear that, but at least it won't turn into the fracas 2000 became.

[PJ's Mom]

4 more years of Bush. Goodie. :rolleyes:

Oh well. At least it's over.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Maresche
My biggest point is that this country really needs to wraps our minds and hearts around tolerance of other religions. None is more or less important/valid as another. But this is very difficult to do with a President who condemns those who don't feel the same way he does. I honestly don't see where he does that, but I'm not saying you're wrong. I guess I just see things differently.

I agree that we need to wrap ourselves around tolerance of religion - all religion. Right now, in my area, every other religion BUT Christianity is embraced while those of us who cross ourselves in prayer at school or wear a crucifix and are asked to cover it up, are the ones who are targeted and our rights are being trampled on.

And I'm done on this point! :)

[Samantha Puppy]

Yes, but the provisional ballots in Ohio won't be counted for 10 days. So Kerry can concede until the cows come home, but if those provisional ballots are counted and give him the upper hand, we've got a problem bigger than 2000 on our hands!

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy

And I'm done on this point! :)

Fair enough. It was a good conversation.

Have a good day. :D

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Maresche
Fair enough. It was a good conversation.

Have a good day. :D It was a good conversation - it was nice being able to debate without it turning into a nasty conversation.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

All I've got to say is - and I'm going to use one of Bush's favorite sayings here

"May God bless America." Because we're going to need it.....

And for all of you who are headed for Canada, instead of turning tail and running, stay here and fight for what you believe in. Like someone mentioned way back on page 4 or 5 of this thread, the President is only a figurehead. He can't do anything without the support of Congress and the House of Representatives. If you believe your rights are being suppressed, call your Senator and complain. Make sure your representatives know how you feel and if they don't vote the way you want to, then vote them out in their next election! Just because somebody has been "in" for many years doesn't mean anything. Look at Tom Daschle (sp?). He's the House minority speaker and he has now been voted out. Stand up for the rights you believe are being suppressed. Let your voice be heard. That is what America is all about!

The only way I can console myself is by using my old standby quote that "Everything always turns out for the best, even if you can't see it at the time." I have to believe that this time will not be the exception....I hope.

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Tubby & Peanut's Mom
The only way I can console myself is by using my old standby quote that "Everything always turns out for the best, even if you can't see it at the time." I have to believe that this time will not be the exception....I hope.

I'm going to do my best to believe that too, but I am still going to batten down the hatches just in case.

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Anyone want to move to Canada?
Originally posted by Kfamr
My bags are packed.
Ditto! :(

Tubby & Peanut's Mom, I'm with you there!!

BTW, Freedom of religion - Doesn't that mean that you have the freedom to choose your religion and to NOT have the Christian religion forced upon you? :confused:

[LKPike]

a woman said once before she read in the bible Bush would win again because the bible has said "His destruction is not yet complete.". I'm sorry to my fellow Kerry supporters, I'm so so sorry. I was sitting here crying as well as many of you were too I'm sure. We'll survive this somehow and if the time comes we truely believe we wont, just make sure youve asked God for forgiveness for anything you regret doing in your life, and live your life now as if tomorrow wont come because with him in office again tomorrow really might not come.

[shutterbug0303]

Presidency goes to.....*drum roll*..........


.....George W. Bush!! :D


(am I going to get trampled for this?!?!?! :eek: :D)

sorry for the continued edits...my posts won't seem to work...:rolleyes:

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by BCBlondie

BTW, Freedom of religion - Doesn't that mean that you have the freedom to choose your religion and to NOT have the Christian religion forced upon you? :confused: Did you not read anything Maresche and I said in our conversation about it?

[BCBlondie]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
Did you not read anything Maresche and I said in our conversation about it?
Umm...... I guess I didn't see your posts.. :confused: Let me go back...

Edit: Okay I read it... but I still have the freedom of speech and expressing my own opinions. :p So I am not taking back what I said.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by RICHARD
I really long for the days when you voted, watched a little TV, went to sleep and found out who was the president was while you were standing in your driveway, reading the newspaper while you were almost naked underneath your robe......





LOLOLOLOL,


The dog tore up this morning's newspaper!!!!
The sports section took a real beating......He doesn't like the
Lakers.:confused: :rolleyes: :mad: :eek:

[tatsxxx11]

Basketball already??? I can't take this!:D I'm already batting o for 2!;)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by tatsxxx11
Basketball already??? I can't take this!:D I'm already batting o for 2!;)

I coached a softball team that went 0-19 before we won a game,

You have to keep playing to win!!! :)

[tatsxxx11]

Thanks for the pep talk, coach:D I'm gonna go by that lottery ticket right now and split it with you if I win! Maybe!:D

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by BCBlondie
Umm...... I guess I didn't see your posts.. :confused: Let me go back...

Edit: Okay I read it... but I still have the freedom of speech and expressing my own opinions. :p So I am not taking back what I said. Yes, you do have freedom of speech, but you didn't express an opinion, you asked a question. I simply pointed you to a conversation between myself, a conservative Republican, and Maresche, a more liberal Democrat.

[ramanth]

Saying this country is safer with Bush in charge is laughable.

I was scared when Bush beat Gore in 2000. And what happened? Sept. 11th.

I will not be surprised if a similar event happens within the next 4 years.

I hope it doesn't...but I won't be surprised. Has OBL been captured?


Live each day, because it just might be your last.

Pessismistic? No. Realistic.

In all fairness, congrats to you Mr. Bush. I hope you have learned from your past mistakes and put it towards making the next 4 years better than the last. Try not to %$@# it up anymore than it is.

But who am I kidding?

The urge to move is great, but this pagan liberal is staying put to try and fight for her rights.


And as an addum.... I have no problems with the idea of after school religious 'study' groups. None at all. I think a group of Christians should be able to have a Bible study after school same as a Pagan group should be allowed a circle ceremony.

But the fact of the matter is only one would be viewed by society as being allowed. It's either one way or another.

That is why there is seperation of church and state.

Should religion be taught during school hours? NO. Because America is full of diverse cultures and forcing one upon all is wrong.

[jazzzytina]

Should religion be taught during school hours? NO. Because America is full of diverse cultures and forcing one upon all is wrong.

I am a Christian and I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

Thank you for stating it.

[Samantha Puppy]

Following your train of thought, Clinton is a horrible President for letting the first attack of the WTC in 1993 happen. :rolleyes:

You cannot blame 9/11 on Bush. He was in office EIGHT MONTHS when it happened - that was not enough time to start pumping all the funding Clinton cut from the military (including localized, like the police) and intelligence back into it and building it back up. bin Laden and his boys had been planning this attack for years.

You cannot place the blame on any one person. 9/11 happened because of evil extremists who hate our way of life.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by jazzzytina
I am a Christian and I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

Thank you for stating it.

So why is it right to teach the "athiest religion" in schools and no other religion?? (that being evolution and the big bang theory) Why not teach the diversity of all religions and how they believe the world came about?

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
So why is it right to teach the "athiest religion" in schools and no other religion?? (that being evolution and the big bang theory) Why not teach the diversity of all religions and how they believe the world came about?

I believe this is okay because evolution and the big bang theory are generally not considered religion at all, but science instead. In religion classes, at least the ones I had in high school a decade or so ago, all theories of creation were taught but not in science class with evolution and big bang. Honestly, I don't seem them as being the same thing. Teaching creationism in science class along with photosynthesis and dna makes a much sense to me as talking about cooking in a math class, loosely related but not really.

I do think religion should be part of every child's education whether through public school (teaching them all) or at home.

I understand where you are coming from to some extent though and feel that is why parents should take a more active role in their child's education, to make sure they learn everything their parents what them to.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by Maresche
I believe this is okay because evolution and the big bang theory are generally not considered religion at all, but science instead. In religion classes, at least the ones I had in high school a decade or so ago, all theories of creation were taught but not in science class with evolution and big bang. Honestly, I don't seem them as being the same thing. Teaching creationism in science class along with photosynthesis and dna makes a much sense to me as talking about cooking in a math class, loosely related but not really.

I understand where you are coming from to some extent though and feel that is why parents should take a more active role in their child's education, to make sure they learn everything their parents what them to.

very well said..:)
Only college professors don't take the matter so lightly... they push it as religion. My brother-in-law almost lost his faith from a college course teaching evolution.

[jazzzytina]

Why not teach the diversity of all religions and how they believe the world came about?

I personally think that would be fine to teach. I just don't think that one religion should be taught over another because we are all different, and as Americans are guaranteed freedom of (or from) religion.

[ramanth]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
This is precisely one of the many reasons I didn't want him re-elected. Not to mention the issues with oil and wildlife.

«President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head up the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee. Hager is a practicing obstetrician-gynecologist, and sources told Time magazine that in his private practice he will not prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. He is also the author of a book
which suggests that women who suffer from premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the bible and praying.
The Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee is responsible for offering expert scientific and medical advice to the FDA on matters relating to drugs used in the practice of obstetrics, gynecology, and related specialties. The committee's responsibilities include all contraceptive drugs and drugs used in performing medical abortion as well as drugs used for infertility treatments, hormone replacement therapy and labor and delivery.»
Scary. If this was pushed hard enough, I wouldn't be allowed to take birth control for treating my Endometriosis. eeks!

[ramanth]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
very well said..:)
Only college professors don't take the matter so lightly... they push it as religion. My brother-in-law almost lost his faith from a college course teaching evolution.
That's not right. To me it's not a religion. It's just science. :)

I'd have no problems if all religions were teached, but someone, somewhere would have a problem with that.

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Only college professors don't take the matter so lightly... they push it as religion. My brother-in-law almost lost his faith from a college course teaching evolution.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope your brother is feeling more confident about things now.

I don't like it when anyone pushes with a "my way or the highway" mentality. This world is not so simple, not black and white.

But I also feel that college is a whole other experience. By school I was meaning public school up until high school. In college, I am of the mind set that classes are supposed to challenge the way you think (not to the extent that your brother experienced it though) so that you are prepared to work, think and function in a world where everything isn't black and white.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy

I was asked to cover up my little 1" crucifix yesterday when going into a school to vote.

I'm very sorry that happened, BUT....I've had so much flak for wearing my 1 1/2" pentacle, you wouldn't believe....I do NOT flaunt or bring attention to it, but people will approach me and inform me that this beautiful symbol of life and my faith is satanic and evil. WTFlip?! One person even had the nerve to RIP IT OFF OF ME! :mad:

How long have pagans had to suffer things like that silently? Is it unfair to ask someone to cover a crucifix? Certainly. But remember that people of other faiths have been dealing with similar, and much worse, prosecution for years.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Maresche

Christianity surrounds us everyday of our lives in this country. Around Christmas and Easter time, you cannot walk into any store without seeing Christmas trees or Easter eggs. (True, this really has a lot to do with the commercialization of our country), but my point is, this is done for Christian holidays, not Yom Kippur or Ramadan.


Actually, Easter eggs were originally a pagan tradition from the spring festival, Ostara. Christmas and Easter are both adaptations of pagan holidays that the Christians stole to make it easier to convert pagans in the old days. :)

Hallowe'en = Samhain
May Day = Beltane

[Maresche]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Actually, Easter eggs were originally a pagan tradition from the spring festival, Ostara. Christmas and Easter are both adaptations of pagan holidays that the Christians stole to make it easier to convert pagans in the old days. :)

Actually I did know that. I only used them as examples because they are some of the more common symbols and most associate them with Christianity than with pagan traditions.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Actually, Easter eggs were originally a pagan tradition from the spring festival, Ostara. Christmas and Easter are both adaptations of pagan holidays that the Christians stole to make it easier to convert pagans in the old days. :)

Hallowe'en = Samhain
May Day = Beltane

I am not so sure what you mean...
Christmas is the birth of Jesus..:confused:
and Easter the ressurection of Jesus :confused:

[Uabassoon]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
I am not so sure what you mean...
Christmas is the birth of Jesus..:confused:
and Easter the ressurection of Jesus :confused:

Actually if you do some research you'll learn that orginally Easter was a pagan holiday. During the crusades the pagans wanted to keep their holidays so as sort of a happy medium they kept their holidays just changed it so the focus was on Jesus instead. If you read the bible you will also notice that Jesus wasn't born in December, but we celebrate it then because of an old pagan holiday.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by Uabassoon
Actually if you do some research you'll learn that orginally Easter was a pagan holiday. During the crusades the pagans wanted to keep their holidays so as sort of a happy medium they kept their holidays just changed it so the focus was on Jesus instead. If you read the bible you will also notice that Jesus wasn't born in December, but we celebrate it then because of an old pagan holiday.

I understand that but... i was questioning why she said the christians "stole"it...


btw... your siggy with Tibby and Corckscrew is super cute!:D

[Maresche]

If you don't mind Sara, I'll let Wolfchan answer this because I think she understands more about this than I do.

The basics, as I understand them, are that the pagan traditions has holidays at similar times of year to the Christian holidays Christmas and Easter (I think they are the Winter Solstice and Spring Equinox) and in the pagan tradition the Winter Solstice is associated with decorated trees and the Spring Equinox with eggs as signs of new life. So those symbols, trees and eggs, are shared by both faiths.

Does that explanation make any sense?

[Maresche]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
I understand that but... i was questioning why she said the christians "stole"it...


The thought is Christians choose these symbols to represent Christmas and Easter because they would be familar to the pagans they were trying to convert. She may have used the word stole instead of borrow because Christians in general often don't acknowledge that those symbols were originally pagan and didn't come from the Bible or other Christian source.

[Uabassoon]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky

btw... your siggy with Tibby and Corckscrew is super cute!:D


Thanks, Kay made the siggy and I really love it :)

[CathyBogart]

A quick search turned up dozens fo results, most of them from Christian websites, stating that Christmas was origanally a pagan holiday. Christians wanted to convers the pagans, so they took the celebreation of the rebirth of the Sun God, and said "Wait, no look! Our deity was born then too, he's the same as your deity! " Or something to that effect. ;) Here's a few links if you're interested...

http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1999/dec6/9te085.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/xmas/celeb.htm

The pagans were manipulated into giving up their celebrations in leiu of these new Christian celebrations. That is why I say these holidays were stolen.

I personally find the story of the death and rebirth of the Holly King to be among the most beutiful and touching I have ever come across, probably much the way that many Christians feel about Jesus' story. I resent that celebration being taken away from my ancestors for so long, and I take joy in bringing it back to life every year.

[Christiansmommy]

I have not read every single post here, but the one thing that really seems to amaze me is...we have a bunch of psychics on this board, that seem to know that, had Gore been elected 4 years ago, that 9-11 wouldn't have happened? How anyone can blame Bush for 9-11...it is beyond me...

And to those of you who say that christianity is being "pushed" at you...and that is why you feel it shouldn't be mentioned (religion) in public schools, there are always 2 sides to the argument...what about us Christians, who are opposed to evolution, why should our children have to read about that in public schools, reguardless if you are calling it a science, and not a religion, we don't believe, period, it completely goes against what OUR religion teaches...

Look back 50 years ago, God was allowed to be mentioned in schools, and was a part of people's lives, and prayer was acceptable in schools, maybe even taught by the teachers...and there were morals and there weren't issues like gun shootings and the crime levels weren't so high and the drugs didn't overwhelm schools like they do now...the difference now...God is slowly being taken out of schools, out of our everyday lives, and the world is in trouble...big shocker...sadly, the pattern here, is America has lost it's values by taking religion out of schools...the proof is in the pudding...what are we doing wrong and lacking from schools, and everyday life, to make this world today seem so wrong, and in more trouble than this world, say, 50 years ago was...well, God is what is missing...someday, everyone will see it...right now, it is going to an ongoing argument...

[RICHARD]

In a side note.

Prop 71 in Cah lee fuh nee ah funding stem cell research was passed.

Ahrnold endorsed this bill!!!

Ahrnold in '08....


It's never too early to start!:rolleyes:

[CathyBogart]

So you're saying that just because we took your deity out of schools the school system is going downhill? Tha'ts a bit of a leap.

In the winter, the instances of drowning decrease. Also, drinking of hot beverages goes up. Are we then to assume that drinking hot beverages reduces your risk of drowning? The two things correspond, but are not correlated.

[Maresche]

Personally I don't feel God is missing from anything. Teaching your children your religious beliefs at home is an option to everyone. It is just my belief that unless you are going to teach all the religions in school (Judiasm, Islam, Pagan, Sikh, even atheism-though it isn't really a religion) then none should be taught in school. No single religion is any more or less important than any other and therefore shouldn't be put ahead of any other.

I also don't believe that not having Christianity in schools is the cause for the problems we are having as a society currently. I think the number reason for the current turmoil is the fact that many parents don't care as much about their children's education. They don't care about what their children are learning in school, what their kids are doing when they get home from school but before their parents come home, who their friends are. Most parents don't even know the parents of their children's friends. This is where I believe the abcess in our society lies.

[Christiansmommy]

Yes, you still have the option to teach religion in your own home, but that isn't the issue here...what were the schools like 50 years ago? And what are they like now? What is different? God was a common place back then, a standard in the majority of people's everyday lives ( in their homes and in school)...today, He is being dismissed...you can come up with any excuse you can find, that could be responsible for making this society have such a tragic downfall...but the bottom line is, the world is lacking one thing ( that is didn't lack 50 years ago), and as long as we continue to erase God from our everyday lives...this world is in danger.

[micki76]

Originally posted by Maresche
I also don't believe that not having Christianity in schools is the cause for the problems we are having as a society currently. I think the number reason for the current turmoil is the fact that many parents don't care as much about their children's education. They don't care about what their children are learning in school, what their kids are doing when they get home from school but before their parents come home, who their friends are. Most parents don't even know the parents of their children's friends. This is where I believe the abcess in our society lies.

Very true.

Also, so many aren't teaching a religion at home, and IMO it's the responsibility of the parents, not the school system. I don't think religion in schools would make a bit of difference, without religion at home. Home is where your values and beliefs are established and so many are unconcerned about ANY belief system. Whether paganism, christianity, muslim, or whatever it must begin at home.

[Maresche]

Christiansmommy-- I will just have to disagree with you on that point though I do see where you are coming from to some degree.

[Logan]

Our children don't get religion at school, and yes, that makes me sad that they can't pray the way that we did when I was a kid, but they get it from us, which is the most important. Robyn, I'm sure that your children will get the same from you and Rob as they grow up in your home. Manners, religion, respect should not be learned from our school systems, they should be taught in our homes, starting with the parents, with reinforcement from the religious bodies that we embrace. Our children need to be educated on many beliefs, and then choose for themselves the way in which they want to live. All we can do is guide them in the direction that we believe is best.

[CathyBogart]

Okay, I'm confused here....are you actually saying that you think things were better when pagan kids had to go to school and listen to drivel about a religion that would never be a part of their lives? I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm genuinely baffled. (And I only used pagans as an example becuase it pertains to me, but I mean all non-mainstream faiths)

[Christiansmommy]

Originally posted by Logan
Our children don't get religion at school, and yes, that makes me sad that they can't pray the way that we did when I was a kid, but they get it from us, which is the most important. Robyn, I'm sure that your children will get the same from you and Rob as they grow up in your home. Manners, religion, respect should not be learned from our school systems, they should be taught in our homes, starting with the parents, with reinforcement from the religious bodies that we embrace. Our children need to be educated on many beliefs, and then choose for themselves the way in which they want to live. All we can do is guide them in the direction that we believe is best.

They may not get religion from school, but the example of what the school systems were like 50 years ago, when God WAS allowed to be mentioned and His morals were taught, and the example of what school systems are like today, where He is being taken out of them...50 years ago, there was less crime, less drugs, less tragity, unlike today, where God has been removed, things start to fall apart...no God in schools, then the school systems are bound to fall...just like anything...if God becomes totally absent from this world, that is when it will all fall to pieces...just wanted to clarify...i know it is the parents responsibility to teach the kids morals and regious beliefs, but i was just trying to explain " the proof in the pudding", take God out of schools, watch the schoods crumble even more and lose even more values...

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by WolfChan
So you're saying that just because we took your deity out of schools the school system is going downhill? That's a bit of a leap.

In the winter, the instances of drowning decrease. Also, drinking of hot beverages goes up. Are we then to assume that drinking hot beverages reduces your risk of drowning? The two things correspond, but are not correlated.

[smokey the elder]

Originally posted by Christiansmommy
Yes, you still have the option to teach religion in your own home, but that isn't the issue here...what were the schools like 50 years ago? And what are they like now? What is different? God was a common place back then, a standard in the majority of people's everyday lives ( in their homes and in school)...today, He is being dismissed...you can come up with any excuse you can find, that could be responsible for making this society have such a tragic downfall...but the bottom line is, the world is lacking one thing ( that is didn't lack 50 years ago), and as long as we continue to erase God from our everyday lives...this world is in danger.

What were schools like 50 years ago? Can you say Brown vs Board of Ed? Can you say McCarthyism? Please let's don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[aly]

YiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiKES!

I believe in God and am a very faithful person, so I hope I am not attacked as being otherwise ... But I do not believe that religion was the groundwork of schooling and the only thing holding it together.

I agree 100% with Logan's post:


Our children don't get religion at school, and yes, that makes me sad that they can't pray the way that we did when I was a kid, but they get it from us, which is the most important. Robyn, I'm sure that your children will get the same from you and Rob as they grow up in your home. Manners, religion, respect should not be learned from our school systems, they should be taught in our homes, starting with the parents, with reinforcement from the religious bodies that we embrace. Our children need to be educated on many beliefs, and then choose for themselves the way in which they want to live. All we can do is guide them in the direction that we believe is best.


As others have said, I believe that religion should NOT be a part of school unless every single religion is taught .. and only then as an educational tool .. not practiced regularly. Religion should be practiced at home. I believe that people should be allowed to wear crosses and other religious symbols as they please though.

Yes, our schooling and home life in general has gone way downhill, but I don't think that can be attributed to any one factor. I actually think it has a lot to do with the advancement of technology myself. Neither of my parents even had television sets when they were young. They played outside and read books. There were no Nintendos or computers to sit in front of all day long. I think the parents who sit their kids in front of a TV, computer, or Nintendo so they won't have to deal with them are the cause of the downfall.

[Christiansmommy]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Okay, I'm confused here....are you actually saying that you think things were better when pagan kids had to go to school and listen to drivel about a religion that would never be a part of their lives? I'm not trying to stir anything up, I'm genuinely baffled. (And I only used pagans as an example becuase it pertains to me, but I mean all non-mainstream faiths)

I am not saying that the book of Romans, John, Acts, etc, from the Bible should be preached to kids in school, but simple things like the pledge of allegience, that were a common place...i feel it should be able to be said, if you don't believe in it, then refrain from saying it...but don't tell Christians that they can't say it ....and don't tell Christians that they have to cover their cross when they enter the school, like i think Samatha Puppy was told ( to cover her crusifix), then a Pagan, shouldn't be able to wear something exemplifing their religion, neither should a Jewish person, etc...

For instance, I have attended Catholic sevices during weddings i have been invited to, i am not Catholic...when prayers are being resited, i refrain from saying them...that is not how I practice my religion...so i reserve the right to refrain from saying them...

All i was saying, is that i feel that it is quite evident that with every little ounce of God being removed from schools, and society as a whole, the world is slowly becoming a more tragic place to live in, then say, 50 years back, when it was evident that God was in control of many people's lives and the schools respected Him....things were just more moral and safe.

[CathyBogart]

Great post Aly, I'm definitely in agreement!

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Christiansmommy

All i was saying, is that i feel that it is quite evident that with every little ounce of God being removed from schools, and society as a whole, the world is slowly becoming a more tragic place to live in, then say, 50 years back, when it was evident that God was in control of many people's lives and the schools respected Him....things were just more moral and safe.

You did not answer my question....Do you actually think things were better when non-Christian kids had to sit and feel left out and possibly looked down upon because their faith was not represented while this other faith was?

[Uabassoon]

Hmm 50 years ago the majority of women didn't have jobs and weren't really given equal rights, blacks and whites couldn't attend classes together do you also think this had led to the school system going downhill? There is a reason why Christian schools exist. If you want your child praying in school then send him to a school where he can pray, but it shouldn't be forced upon people. My parents wanted me to learn catholic values so they sent me to catholic school. They didn't complain about how horrible the school system was because of lack of religion. Or maybe that was because both of them are public educators.

[Logan]

Originally posted by WolfChan
You did not answer my question....Do you actually think things were better when non-Christian kids had to sit and feel left out and possibly looked down upon because their faith was not represented while this other faith was?

This is a sad, uninformed commentary, but 50 years ago (before I was born), I think Christianity was probably the most recognized religion in the US and there wasn't as much diversity within religion evident in this country, with other people demanding to be recognized. Now they do, and rightfully so!

You're right, Robyn, in that the world was different then, and we didn't have the same concerns that we have now, but we had other ones, like civil rights and many other worthy causes.

I still hold strongly to my belief that the best lessons our children learn are learned at home, with us.

Best intentions.
Logan

[K9soul]

I think there's a fine line between not pushing religious beliefs on people and not allowing them to freely express their religion. I don't think a public school should have crosses or religious symbols on the wall, but I feel kids should be able to wear a cross or whatever religious symbol they wish to if they want to express their religion. I don't think a public school should enforce prayer at lunch time, but I think a kid should be able to say a prayer before lunch if they want to without getting harassed or told not to. I'm all for individual expression as long as it is peaceful. It seems to me in some of the efforts to keep religion out of school, they are actually supressing any individual expression of it at all. I always looked on the ability to express whatever faith you were as one of the freedoms of this country.

I very much see the point others have made about granting holidays on Christian religious days and not other religions' holy days. I would think something like a set amount of vacation days where kids could choose which days they used would be good, but it'd be hard to set something like that up and have staff available at all times. I am not sure how this problem could be addressed without taking all holidays away and just setting up generic days off that had nothing to do with religion.

[Christiansmommy]

Originally posted by WolfChan
You did not answer my question....Do you actually think things were better when non-Christian kids had to sit and feel left out and possibly looked down upon because their faith was not represented while this other faith was?

I am not Pagan. You are clearly a non-Christian, so if something of Christianity has been removed from the school systems at the present time, it must make you feel some what relieved ( so are you saying it is better that Christian kids now have to refrain from uplifting their God in school) ...b/c you didn't believe in it being said in the first...since you are a non-christian...just as i feel, as a Christian, the PLedge should remain in the public schools, why, b/c i am a Christian....

We will need to agree to disagree.

I am not a fan of the dog house ..so i will end this kindly...to each his own. I agree to disagree on this one.

[Uabassoon]

Originally posted by Logan

I still hold strongly to my belief that the best lessons our children learn are learned at home, with us.



I 100% agree with you on that.

[Christiansmommy]

Originally posted by K9soul
I think there's a fine line between not pushing religious beliefs on people and not allowing them to freely express their religion. I don't think a public school should have crosses or religious symbols on the wall, but I feel kids should be able to wear a cross or whatever religious symbol they wish to if they want to express their religion. I don't think a public school should enforce prayer at lunch time, but I think a kid should be able to say a prayer before lunch if they want to without getting harassed or told not to. I'm all for individual expression as long as it is peaceful. It seems to me in some of the efforts to keep religion out of school, they are actually supressing any individual expression of it at all. I always looked on the ability to express whatever faith you were as one of the freedoms of this country.



Very well said...and i will end my comments on this topic here :)

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Christiansmommy
I am not Pagan. You are clearly a non-Christian, so if something of Christianity has been removed from the school systems at the present time, it must make you feel some what relieved ( so are you saying it is better that Christian kids now have to refrain from uplifting their God in school) ...b/c you didn't believe in it being said in the first...since you are a non-christian...just as i feel, as a Christian, the PLedge should remain in the public schools, why, b/c i am a Christian....

I am not saying that people shouldn't be free to their own religious forms of expression, however I am still seeking an answer to my question, which you have dodged answering yet again.

[Pam]

Originally posted by Uabassoon
Hmm 50 years ago the majority of women didn't have jobs and weren't really given equal rights, blacks and whites couldn't attend classes together do you also think this had led to the school system going downhill? There is a reason why Christian schools exist. If you want your child praying in school then send him to a school where he can pray, but it shouldn't be forced upon people. My parents wanted me to learn catholic values so they sent me to catholic school. They didn't complain about how horrible the school system was because of lack of religion. Or maybe that was because both of them are public educators.

Gosh my response could fill a page in response to your first sentence, but I will spare you. :) I was hoping that with the end of the election peace would return to Pet Talk. My only comment is that my husband and I did send both of our children to a Christian school because we were tired of them being taught things at school that were contradictory to what we were teaching them at home. To do this cost us over $500 a month for several years and that was 10 years ago. I can't even imagine what it costs today. My hubby often said that we had to pay for freedom FROM our public schools. I didn't expect them to learn religion in public schools but I didn't want the secular school system telling them what to believe either. Oh, and I was in school 50 years ago (I was 7 years old). We had Bible reading each morning (from the Old Testament) and prayer right along with the flag salute and this was in a public school. We also learned about all religions and celebrated Christmas and Hanukkah openly. I am sure had there been any Muslims in the school system (there were none back then in my community) that their holidays would have been observed as well. By the way, our schools were closed for the high Jewish holidays back then too because my community had a large Jewish population. I feel that the demographics of your area has a lot to do with things. See, aren't you glad I didn't get wordy? :p

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by Maresche
The thought is Christians choose these symbols to represent Christmas and Easter because they would be familar to the pagans they were trying to convert. She may have used the word stole instead of borrow because Christians in general often don't acknowledge that those symbols were originally pagan and didn't come from the Bible or other Christian source.

Yeah I understand the pagan stories for the holidays.. i just wanted to make sure that you don't believe our whole religion is based on stealing pagan stories and turning them into our beliefs..:)

[CathyBogart]

Just a random note to maybe get a few chuckles....I often wish we had the days AFTER pagan holidays off, because usually any ritual I choose to celebrate with is performed late at night!! :D :D :D

(That goes back to when pagans were actively prosecuted and had to really hide their faith...and it's just become tradition now for some people)

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
Yeah I understand the pagan stories for the holidays.. i just wanted to make sure that you don't believe our whole religion is based on stealing pagan stories and turning them into our beliefs..:)

Nope, just a good chunk of the holidays. :)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Nope, just a good chunk of the holidays. :)

please don't think im this nieve... i really am trying to be smart *lol*
So pagans believe the christian belief was formed from taking pagan holidays and forming them into a religion ... that Jesus never existed????

[Uabassoon]

I feel that the demographics of your area has a lot to do with things.


I agree with this. However I don't think that 50 years ago in other parts of the U.S. like the south and midwest students were taught the same way (however I would be happy to be proved wrong, I'd love to know that 50 years ago in other parts of the U.S. other cultures and religions were shared). I know that in Texas (where I grew up) it would have been unheard of to have given Jewish holidays off. I mean a student would get an excused abscense but that's about it.

[CathyBogart]

Goddess, no, I do think he existed. I just think they got the dates a little off. :)

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I don't think that's what she meant. I think she meant Christmas and Easter were originally Pagan traditions, and the Christians adopted their way of celebrations and took them as their own, associating them with Jesus. I don't think Jesus used to celebrate Christmas, so where else do the Christians get it from? :confused:

Yes! Thank you, I can't seem to word things correctly sometimes. :)

[ramanth]

Originally posted by Sara luvs her Tinky
please don't think im this nieve... i really am trying to be smart *lol*
So pagans believe the christian belief was formed from taking pagan holidays and forming them into a religion ... that Jesus never existed????
No no no. :)

There was a time, long ago when there were more pagans than Christians. The Christians needed a way to try and convert the pagans. So, they took the Pagan holiday of Yule (Dec. 21st) and told everyone that Jesus was born on Dec. 24th and that they needed to celebrate it.

Yule was quickly buried under the rising holiday, Christmas. Yule Tide greetings is from the pagan tradition. As well as decorating a tree and such. These symbols were adopted by Christians and incorporated into the Christmas holiday they created. As far as I know, Jesus wasn't born in Dec.


and I think I'm only going to make Sara more confused. LOL!

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Goddess, no, I do think he existed. I just think they got the dates a little off. :)

:D :D
thanks for the info!

[K9soul]

I don't think Jesus used to celebrate Christmas, so where else do the Christians get it from?

Well a Christian's celebration of Christmas is supposed to be celebrating Jesus's birth. I don't know that he would celebrate his own birth?

I sure don't like celebrating my birthday :D

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by ramanth
No no no. :)

There was a time, long ago when there were more pagans than Christians. The Christians needed a way to try and convert the pagans. So, they took the Pagan holiday of Yule (Dec. 21st) and told everyone that Jesus was born on Dec. 24th and that they needed to celebrate it.

Yule was quickly buried under the rising holiday, Christmas. Yule Tide greetings is from the pagan tradition. As well as decorating a tree and such. These symbols were adopted by Christians and incorporated into the Christmas holiday they created. As far as I know, Jesus wasn't born in Dec.

Yeah i believe that Jesus was actually born in September...
thanks you guys for being so nice in clearing that up for me.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by ramanth
As far as I know, Jesus wasn't born in Dec.

I thought I had heard this too, but I didn't want to bring it up since I know little about it.

The links I posted actually got the old stories a bit wring form the original holiday....the Sun God, the Holly King, the Horned God, whatever you call him by, goes through an annual cycle of death and rebirth according to my faith, and the Yule celebration was a celebration of his emminent rebirth and th elonger brighter days that accompanied it. :) I seriously doubt the old-time pagans actually thought that if the didn't celebrate the sun would be gone for good. :P

[ramanth]

No problem. :D Now give Tink and Jupiter a kiss. :D

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by ramanth
No problem. :D Now give Tink and Jupiter a kiss. :D

oh of course!!!

as I type i am uploading some pictures to put in cat general....
Because the wonderful Mr. Kat (jupiter) WILL NOT QUIT CHASING MY MOUSE ARROW AND GETTING ALL IN THE WAY!:D

[ramanth]

Originally posted by WolfChan
I thought I had heard this too, but I didn't want to bring it up since I know little about it.
I attended a paraochial school when I was younger and was raised Catholic...so a little of the Christian faith is known to me. I just can't remember details, especially as I don't follow that faith any longer. :)

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Off topic, but since we're on the subject...I have always wondered why Christians celebrate Christmas the way they do. I mean...where do you get the holiday from? The Bible? Did Jesus celebrate it (or did his followers celebrate it)? I don't think he/they did.

Our holidays all come from religion.....like Ramadan (the month in which we fast from dawn to sunset everyday) is the month in which we believe God sent down the Quran to Prophet Muhammad. We get that holiday from religion. We get Eid-ul-Fitr (the day after the completion of Ramadan), from religion too. Prophet Muhammad always celebrated it. Its supposed to be a day of thanks and a reward to those who fasted the entire month on God's command. Our third holiday (Eid-ul-Udha) is based on the story of Abraham.......when God commanded him to sacrifice his son to test his faith, and stopped him before did so, and sent him a ram from heaven to sacrifice instead. These are the only three holidays we have and they're all based on religion, and based on the lunar calendar, on the exact dates on which they occured. Where do Christian holidays/traditions come from though? I only ask this out of curiosity.......I had always wondered what Santa, christmas trees, etc. had to do with Jesus.

We celebrate christmas as Christ's birthday. I don't really know how all the santa and tree jazz got into the celebration of Jesus' birth. I think families participate in it for the holiday fun... of the spirit of giving.. and do it with all the extras. My family always reads the story of Jesus' birth from the bible before we open our presents.:D

[LKPike]

Originally posted by Christiansmommy
I have not read every single post here, but the one thing that really seems to amaze me is...we have a bunch of psychics on this board, that seem to know that, had Gore been elected 4 years ago, that 9-11 wouldn't have happened? How anyone can blame Bush for 9-11...it is beyond me...

And to those of you who say that christianity is being "pushed" at you...and that is why you feel it shouldn't be mentioned (religion) in public schools, there are always 2 sides to the argument...what about us Christians, who are opposed to evolution, why should our children have to read about that in public schools, reguardless if you are calling it a science, and not a religion, we don't believe, period, it completely goes against what OUR religion teaches...

Look back 50 years ago, God was allowed to be mentioned in schools, and was a part of people's lives, and prayer was acceptable in schools, maybe even taught by the teachers...and there were morals and there weren't issues like gun shootings and the crime levels weren't so high and the drugs didn't overwhelm schools like they do now...the difference now...God is slowly being taken out of schools, out of our everyday lives, and the world is in trouble...big shocker...sadly, the pattern here, is America has lost it's values by taking religion out of schools...the proof is in the pudding...what are we doing wrong and lacking from schools, and everyday life, to make this world today seem so wrong, and in more trouble than this world, say, 50 years ago was...well, God is what is missing...someday, everyone will see it...right now, it is going to an ongoing argument...

sooo what your saying is God being taken outta schools is the only reason the worlds gone down hill? I've experienced first hand the reasons its gone down hill. My mother and I lived the BEST life until Bush was elected. We had a 4 bedroom, 3 bathroom house with only us living there, plenty in the bank accounts, 3 vehicles, several pets, anything we wanted we could have. Bush was elected and we didn't think anything of it until mom lost her job after Bush's decisions, then 1 and 2 cars had to be sold.. had to give the dogs up for adoption.. and eventually lost the house. We were homeless for 6 months. Nobody came to help us, no special "programs" or "orginazations" there to take us and help us rebuild *LIKE THERE WAS WHEN CLINTON WAS PRESIDENT THAT ALLOWED US TO REBUILD FROM OUR FIRST BANKRUPTCY* In the time we were homeless I experienced so much, I learned so quick why this worlds quickly dying. Yes, Bush is a big reason for why. Republicans in general are the reason why, their so greedy and selfish. You wanna know why its gone down hill from a person who experienced it first hand?
More drugs, more alcohol, more filth, low selfesteem of those that had also lost everything, no health insurance so no help from doctors when it was desperatly needed, Yeah thanks Bush. Thanks for all youve "given" us. But hes not the only issue I realize that. 50 years ago not as many people were divorcing, 50 years ago the teachers paid more attention to the students, 50 years ago kids had atleast 1 family member they could run to when stuff was going wrong.
I'm christian but I don't believe in forcing religion in schools, thats not why kids suffer today. Ask them about their home life, if their parents listen to them, are they taken care of. They just need a friend.
But I also don't believe in hell or much of what the bible says about satan and the like. I believe in the Love of God - the Father, I believe in Karma - the Teacher, and Mother Nature - the Helping hand or healer. what many christians, (I *believe*), fail to do is be more open minded, from my own experience they take what their preacher says and believe it and end of story. they need to use their time to study and think deeply on everything thats said in the bible and why would our Father send us to "hell" for making mistakes when he purposely didn't make us perfect and etc.
It took me along long time to get back with religion after all I suffered through but I realize today that I had to be broken down to absolutely nothing before I would be able to HEAR Him. I don't feel alone anymore, when something goes wrong Hes the first I turn to and no matter what I KNOW He hears me. My life is better because I found MY friend that I can run to, all these kids need is a person that will listen and comfort.

[ramanth]

Originally posted by Christiansmommy
we have a bunch of psychics on this board, that seem to know that, had Gore been elected 4 years ago, that 9-11 wouldn't have happened? How anyone can blame Bush for 9-11...it is beyond me...
I just wanted to touch on this because I'm sure it was in response to my post. :)

I guess in a way, I do blame Bush. He's our President and I feel he's supposed to keep us safe. Could the attack of happened had Gore been president? Yes I'm sure it could have, and I'd be miffed at Gore and would be blaming him.

On the same token, again, I say it's not right to say we are a safer nation because Bush is still in office. An attack could still happen. And I don't think it was right of Bush to say that we'd be less safe with Kerry in office. I'm sure it was just mud slingling, but he's not psychic either.

A major attack happened under Bush's watch and with him still as President... yes... I'm nervous.

And that's just my opinion. :)

[K9soul]

"Santa" is based off of St. Nicholas. This site explains the legend/history of St. Nicholas:

http://www.umkc.edu/imc/stnick.htm

In summary, it states:

"The story of St. Nicholas, also called Nicholas of Bari and Nicholas of Myra (and Santa Claus), began in what is now Turkey, early in the fourth century, near the modern Turkish city of Finike. One of the most popular minor saints commemorated in the Eastern and Western churches, his feast day is December 6th. He is now traditionally associated with the festival of Christmas."

I believe the tree and St. Nich and gift giving parts of Christmas used to be separate from the religious observation of Christ's birth long long ago, but when Christmas came to be combined with other celebrations over time until it became a combination of different things for different people. As mentioned about Yule Tide, some of those things were incorporated into "Christmas." I think if you did a search on the net and put in things like "History of Christmas trees" or "History of Santa" etc, you'd come up with a lot of reading too.

[Logan]

We've got a lot of different discussions going on here, but I'm addressing one in particular

LKPike, I terribly sorry for what you have experienced with your family. Can I ask you, specifically, what President Bush did that caused this?

I lost my job last week. I haven't said a word about it, here, before now, but I think it is time. I do not blame George Bush, as I would not have blamed Bill Clinton or John Kerry. My industry has changed and it has been a rough couple of years. I actually probably have a reason to blame government, or even more specifically, President Bush, because during his administration, the Small Business Administration has not been the top priority, which has led to program problems, budget issues, funding issues, etc, which all directly impacts me and my company since I am an originator of Small Business Administration loans. Do I blame him? No way. I don't blame anyone. It is a part of life, and an unpleasant one, at that. 20 years ago, when I graduated from college, I went to work for a major Textile company (Cannon Mills). One year after I started working for them as a management trainee, I lost my job. There was no where to place the people in training. Everyone who started when I did, lost their jobs. I never looked back with bitterness, just moved forward and started in a different industry. That's what I plan to do now.

Just some thoughts from me.
Logan

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

TUNE INTO CAT GENERAL FOR SOME PICTURES OF JUPITER!!! :D :D

[aly]

Sorry about your job, Logan :(

I wish you the best of luck in your search for a new industry though. I hope you can make this into an exciting and fun opportunity!

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by aly
Sorry about your job, Logan :(

I wish you the best of luck in your search for a new industry though. I hope you can make this into an exciting and fun opportunity!

Absolutely! You have a great outlook on something that can be shattering!

[Logan]

Thank you, ladies. I'm going to be just fine, in time, as will my family. I like to think that I'm the type that will land on my feet, and I will!!!! :)

Logan

[Lady's Human]

Kudos, logan.

The Federal Government actually has little to nothing to do with the cycles of the economy. They can make it easier for companies, and improve employment, or they can make it difficult for companies to grow and restrict it. (Normally as an unintended consequence, like EPA Regs that go too far). Your local Government has Far more to do with the local economy than the federal Govt. For a prime example, look at what happened to Mass in the late '70s to the mid to late '80s. I won't get into detail, but it was a cycle of excessive taxation in a weak economy combined with huge growth in government spending. End result? many manufacturers closed up shop. It wasn't until the tech boom started that Mass started to recover, after the state finally realized they had to cut taxes and make the business climate a little more frendly.

The point is that the great big brother in Washington can't really do much to help you, but can do a great deal of harm through excessive taxation and regulation. Self reliance goes far when dealing with the potholes in the road, and asking the federal government to do something about your personal situation is a bit unrealistic.

[Kfamr]

I've literally been sick to my stomach ever since i've heard that bush has won.

It makes me completely sick and i'm really afraid of what's going to happen in this country.


Today at my school, a girl who is highly for John Kerry, got her vehicle vandalized. YEAH.... what a wonderful society to live in.
I'm almost scared to voice my opinion anymore.. what's next?

[lizbud]

Originally posted by Lady's Human


The Federal Government actually has little to nothing to do with the cycles of the economy. They can make it easier for companies, and improve employment, or they can make it difficult for companies to grow and restrict it.


Lady's Human, isn't that a bit of a contradictory statement ?
Never mind.... Should be in a different thread....


Logan,

I wish you the best in landing another position. I know you will.
Just wanted to send good wishes in looking around for the right
spot. :) Liz.

[carole]

Congratulations to Bush and his supporters and my greatest commiserations to Kerry and his supporters.

I personally was sad to see Bush win the election, I wanted to see new blood, there goes my hope for a cure for a miserable hereditary disease that may befall me and my family, and the only consulation is its only for four years, my understanding is after 8 years Bush will have done his term and have to step down, correct me please if this is wrong. Roll on 4 years.

So to all those who feel despair at the thought of Bush being in power again, you have my empathy.

[heinz57_79]

YAYYYY!!! Bush won!! Let's hear it for higher unemployment! Let's hear it for a higher national deficit! Let's hear it for more war! Let's hear it for citizens' rights being taken away! Equal rights are overrated anyway!

Goooooooo Bush! :rolleyes:

And.... I'm spent.

[RICHARD]

-------------------------------

My mom always taught me that I make my own 'row to hoe'
in life.

In case you never have had a row to hoe, let me explain.


You plant seeds in the dirt in a straight line....You take a hoe, and you create a llittle channel on each side so the water will get to the seeds and later the roots.

The crops you get depend on the seeds you sow, the effort you put into the hoeing and the care you take for the harvest.


People will walk by your garden or crop and admire the work you have put into your plants....

When you haphazardly toss the seeds to the wind, don't bother to hoe and water when you want to, people will pass right on by and never even realize what's going on on that plot of earth.


Speech and courtesy are the same way.

When you choose your words carefully, people will see the care that you have taken to make a point.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


About 9/11

I still cannot believe that people have forgotten about the WTC bombing in the early 90's

http://www.adl.org/learn/jttf/wtcb_jttf.asp


I believe that someone by the name of Bill Clinton was the president then.

What about the 'Black Hawk Down" incident?
The Beirut Marine barracks bombing?
The Disco in Germany Bombing
The Lockerbie/PanAm plane bombing?
Ask Leon Klinghoffer's family what they thought about him being shot and pushed off the Achille Lauro in his wheelchair.

And then you have the OK city bombing.......I guess Tim Mcveigh gets a pass on that one because he was an American?


You are worried about an attack that took place on American soil and that's the only time it will rankle anyone's arse because ALL THE OTHER STUFF HAPPENED OVERSEAS.......

Boo hoo for five seconds and let's go on with our lives.....it's a few soldiers in a disco, some sailors on a boat and 232 Marines asleep in a barracks.

Then it's a paraplegic in a wheelchair swimming with the fishes.

We have been the target of terrorism for YEARS. It's just no one was stupid enough (Except for the '93 WTC bombing) to bring it home to roost in the United States......

When you blame Bush blame Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter and all the rest of the president's who had a terrorist attack happen on their watch.

After you blame the presidents blame yourself and then blame your parents for subscribing to the "let's cut the military budget"
line of thought.


When the next terrorist attack happens you'll hear about three sets of people,

The people who will cry about the government 'NOT DOING ENOUGH'

The people who will cry about the government "NOT ABLE TO DO ENOUGH"

And the people who won't say anything-We'll be digging them out of the rubble.

So blame the current administration, But don't forget about all the Men and Women that have died from terrorist attacks overseas over the years.

That's one thing that amazes me to this day!!!!

No one ever blames the gutless effing punks who pull these stunts off...

We turn on each other like rabid weasels, biting and gnawing on each other because it's dark inside the hole in the ground.

Actually, you can't be mad at Muhammad Atta and his friends.

We need someone/something physical to vent on...

You gotta love it.








:rolleyes:

[ILoveReptiles]

I must say that when Bush won this election - I actually CRIED.

I fear for this country. I am terrified of what he will do to it.

How long will it take this man to strip all women of their rights - and remove everyone's civil rights as well?

How long will it take him to find a convenient excuse to start another war? And another? How many citizens will have to die before people start to wake up?

I'm physically sick to my stomach over this. I don't know if I can deal with another 4 years of Bush. I might just move to Canada.

[aly]

Originally posted by RICHARD



About 9/11

I still cannot believe that people have forgotten about the WTC bombing in the early 90's

http://www.adl.org/learn/jttf/wtcb_jttf.asp


I believe that someone by the name of Bill Clinton was the president then.
.
.


When you blame Bush blame Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter and all the rest of the president's who had a terrorist attack happen on their watch.




I think a lot of people didn't really blame 9/11 on Bush, but had problems with how he handled it. I'm not speaking for everyone, but I think lots of people think that way. I myself am not sure what to think of that whole situation. I don't believe a thing Michael Moore says (can't STAND that guy), but I think there may be some ounce of truth in his film. I haven't been able to figure it all out myself quite yet. There is a long list of other reasons besides 9/11 why I didn't want Bush back in office.

[LKPike]

Originally posted by Logan
We've got a lot of different discussions going on here, but I'm addressing one in particular

LKPike, I terribly sorry for what you have experienced with your family. Can I ask you, specifically, what President Bush did that caused this?

Just some thoughts from me.
Logan


really an entire nation couldnt all be telling lies, theres no denying how bad this economy has suffered since Bush was elected. We all lost jobs, it happened almost immediatly after he was elected and not only to me and my mother but several others close to us too. And according to the news... also to hundreds and thousands of others. Yeah there were attacks while Clinton was president but instead of blindly attacking back he focused on US, the americans, on rebuilding and moving on and ultimately we were a happier nation.

[Logan]

Here is something I received today, a daily commentary from a local talk show host, Ralph Bristol. I thought you might find it interesting. I did.

I hope that the President and Congress, together, can work towards a more united country and that their efforts will promote a stronger economy. But I will not blame them entirely for what happens to my family and me, personally. We are all accountable in my opinion.

Logan


Republicans have no time to celebrate the nearly unprecedented victory with which voters entrusted them Tuesday, nor do they have the luxury of being timid. After a short breather to thank their families for their patience, they need to roll up their sleeves and get to work fulfilling their mandate.



Four years ago, Americans decided to take a chance and put Republicans in charge. Their leader, President Bush, promised to cut taxes, reform Social Security and hold the line on spending.



Granted, he had a few obstacles. He inherited an economy that was coming to the end of a major boom cycle and entering a recession. Less than a year into his presidency, he also had to answer 9/11, a declaration of war by radical Islamic terrorists. But the recession is behind us, thanks in part to the one promise the Republicans did keep - to cut taxes, and even though the war continues, life has returned to as normal as it's going to get.



Now, voters have reinforced and amplified the decision they made four years ago - to reform and downsize government with an unprecedented GOP majority. President Bush is the first President to win a majority of the popular vote since 1988. He got more votes than any other President in history. Voters fired the leader of Senate Democrats and gave Republicans at least three more members of the Senate. They also increased the GOP majority in the House.



An abundantly clear majority of Americans want what Republicans campaigned on. We want Social Security and other entitlement reform. We want tax reform, not just selective tax cuts designed to manipulate our personal financial decisions. We want smaller, less intrusive, and less expensive government. We want a Supreme Court that knows the difference between the role of judges and legislators, and respects the rights of states and the people to make moral judgments about such things as marriage and abortion.



There is no political obstacle to a "full steam ahead" reform agenda. President Bush will never face another election, so he doesn't have to be timid for political reasons. Some of the newest members of the GOP majority in the Senate (Lindsey Graham and Jim DeMint for example) fought off relentless attacks against tax and Social Security reform ideas to win convincing victories.



There are only two things that can stop this uniquely Republican government from fulfilling its unambiguous marching orders. One would be that they don't actually want to do the things they said they want to do. If that's the case, there should be hell to pay when they seek reelection. The other is the Senate rule that requires 60 votes to break a threatened filibuster. The Republican leadership need not let that rule stop them. The majority can either change the rules or punish the obstructionists. The majority should let it be known that all reform bills and judicial nominees will get a fair hearing and a vote, or those who stop it will take nothing home to their constituents except a horse's head (symbolically speaking of course).



I am pleased that voters across the country decided to give Republicans another chance and a larger majority to govern for the next four years. But I am not in the mood to celebrate. I'm in the mood to hold some Republican feet to the fire.



Now, take five and then get to work.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by LKPike
really an entire nation couldnt all be telling lies, theres no denying how bad this economy has suffered since Bush was elected. We all lost jobs, it happened almost immediatly after he was elected and not only to me and my mother but several others close to us too. I see in your profile you were born in 1987. When President Bush was elected to his first term, you were 13 years old... and you lost your job? If that's true and I were you, I'd be more pissed at Clinton for making a 13 year old HAVE to work in the first place!

:confused:

[LKPike]

I went through job training at Friedman's Jewlers because my sister was the manager, (though not anymore after guess who got elected.) I was trained as any other new employee there and even got paid. It was my own decision, no one elses, and because of it I get hired easier now than other 17 year olds. At that time I was also a part of my mothers interior design business, and am currently a real estate assistant, next year i'll be an agent. And just so ya know its legal for kids to work at 14

[Logan]

I think it is terribly sad that you have such a jaded view of how the office of President works, LKPike. I still don't understand how it is George W. Bush's fault that your sister isn't manager of a jewelry store anymore. :( People have lost jobs while there were Democratic and Republican Presidents. As I said in an earlier post, directed to you, my job is gone as of Nov. 15. I am employed by a major corporation, one of the largest banks in our country. But I do not like to look for a place to put the blame, instead I would rather focus on what I can do differently to prevent this from happening again.

I hope that in time, your attitude will change regarding the way this country works. It is sad for a bright, young person, such as yourself, to be so negative. I'll spare you any more commentary from me on this subject since obviously, nothing anyone says is going to make a difference to you right now.