Groups Opposed ToThe Greyhound Racing Industry

[lizbud]

This list from the Greyhound Racing Association Of America.

FYI:



Organizations that Openly Oppose Greyhound Racing Financial


The following organizations openly oppose greyhound racing through the media-- and to the public:

GREY2KUSA

American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)

Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA)

Greyhound Protection League

Greyhound Network News

Greyhound Action International

Idaho Citizens Against Greyhound Entertainment

Pennsylvania Citizens Against Greyhound Racing

Kids For Greyhounds

Greyhoundracingsucks.com

American-European Greyhound Alliance

Greyhound Central


ADOPTION GROUPS

That openly oppose greyhound racing

Parent Organization Group Name Representative Location
Greyheart Greyhound Rescue and Adoption of Michigan Carol Jensen MI
Greyhound Adoption of Ohio Linda Perko OH
Greyhound Adoptions of Florida, Inc. Bob & Marilyn Varnberg FL
Greyhound Companions of New Mexico Judy Kody Paulsen NM
Greyhound Welfare Foundation Greyhound Friends for Life Sue Tomasello CA
GREYHOUND FRIENDS Greyhound Friends of North Carolina Randy Barrow NC
GREYHOUND FRIENDS Greyhound Friends, Inc. Louise Coleman MA
Greyhound Gang Claudia Presto UT
Greyhound Guardians Lee & Larry Lavery IN
Greyhound Rescue of Idaho Virginia McKean ID
Greyhounds New Beginnings Harold Daniel Laird MI
GreysLand Greyhound Adoption, Inc. Robin Norton MA
Hav-A-Heart Greyhound Rescue & Adoption Jo Ann Jones MI
Michigan Greyhound Connection Susan Bilsky MI
REGAP Michigan REGAP Lenka Perron MI
NGAP National Greyhound Adoption Program, Inc. David Wolf PA
Operation Greyhound Bruna Palmatier CA
USA Defenders of Greyhounds Inc. Nancy Wallace/Hudspeth IL
USA Defenders of Greyhounds, Inc. Linda Brewster GA
USA Defenders of Greyhounds, Inc. Sally Allen IN





ADOPTION GROUPS

That associate with individuals and groups that openly oppose greyhound racing

Parent Organization Group Name Representative Location
2nd Chance Greyhounds John Burt UT
Adopt a Greyhound Atlanta, Inc. Carl Veiner GA
Adopt-A-Greyhound Leslie Trout WI
Arizona Greyhound Rescue AZ
Canine Causes Cindy Hall CA
Dog Rescue Ireland Bernie Wright IRELAND
Dogworks Canine Rescue Penny Noel CA
Fast Dogs-Fast Friends Debi Woodman AZ
Fast Friends Donna Paine NH
First State Greyhound Rescue PA
Friends of Greyhounds, Inc. Michelle Weaver FL
Golden State Greyhound Adoption Barbara Homer CA
Grateful Greyhounds Lisa Sallie NY
GREAT FL
Greater Raleigh Greyhound Rescue Group Dana R Jones, DVM NC
Greyhound Acres Rescue & Adoption Marc & Shaun NY
Greyhound Adoption and Rescue Janice Ziola NV
Greyhound Adoption California Scott & Ann Sanders CA
Greyhound Adoption Center Kathy Johnson CA
Greyhound Adoption Center Dana Provost NV
Greyhound Awareness League David Melville SCOTLAND
Greyhound Rescue of Idaho Greyhound Connection Heather Weir CO
GREYHOUND FRIENDS Greyhound Friends of New Jersey Barbara Wicklund NJ
GPA Greyhound Pets of America Ellen Schneiderman WI
Greyhound Rescue & Rehabilitation NY
Greyhound Rescue Adoption Team (GReAT) NY
Greyhound Rescue And Adoption Bob Abramson KY
Greyhound Rescue of Austin Marnie Reeder TX
Greyhound Rescue of N.E., Inc. MA
Greyhound Welfare Kopal Barnouin Jha MD
Greyhounds & Love, Inc. Terry Howard SC
Greyhounds as Companions Pat Colitsas NY
Greyhounds Galore Jackie Brantley GA
Greyhounds Only, Inc. Linda La Foone IL
Halfpint Haven Borzoi and Greyhound Adoptions, Inc. Lisa Simpson FL
REGAP Illinois REGAP Ellen Stokal IL
REGAP Kansas City REGAP Bill & Cher Oliver MO
Long Island Greyhound Transfer Inc. (L.I.G.H.T.) Craig Barrett CT
Long Island Greyhound Transfer, Inc. Julie Ferrara NY
National Greyhound Foundation, Inc. Beverly Sebastian FL
New Beginnings Greyhound Adoption FL
New Jersey Greyhound Adoption Program, Inc. Jennifer Sigler NJ
New Mexico Greyhound Connection Candy & Jerry Beck NM
Northern California Greyhound Adoption Program Jean Rice CA
Racing Dog Rescue Project FL
REGAP REGAP of Connecticut Eileen McCaughern CT
REGAP REGAP of Illinois, Inc IL
Retired Racers, Inc. Linda Brown CA
Second Chance for Greyhounds Helen Banks FL
Shamrock Greyhound Placement Jennifer Watkins KY
REGAP St. Louis REGAP MO
We Adopt Greyhounds Ellie Goldstein CT

[lizbud]

Another point of view on the Greyhound Racing Business.

I think I'm in great company when I say that I agree with this
point of view. Racing animals for profit should be banned in all
states.

http://www.petelevin.com/greyhounds.htm


http://www.petfinder.com/journalindex.cgi?path=/public/animalissuesawareness/legalmatterspoliticalissues/1.39.3.txt

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by lizbud
Another point of view on the Greyhound Racing Business.

I think I'm in great company when I say that I agree with this
point of view. Racing animals for profit should be banned in all
states.

http://www.petelevin.com/greyhounds.htm

http://www.petfinder.com/journalindex.cgi?path=/public/animalissuesawareness/legalmatterspoliticalissues/1.39.3.txt Do you believe everything you read?

From Levin's site:


Of the over 30,000 puppies born into the industry annually, only one in 20 will generate enough prize money income to stay alive to the mandatory retirement age of five years.
This makes no sense. A 5 year-old greyhound that is still racing is almost as rare as a 40 year-old in the NFL. Most greyhounds are retired to breeding or a pet before 5 years of age.

Mr. Levin has since deleted this page from his official web site. I noted the discrepancies on his web page and sent him an e-mail---here is his reply:


I'm aware that the Greyhound situation has improved a great deal over the last few years - that from my own observation only. Having no source that I trust, I long ago removed links to my Greyhound web pages and asked others to do the same. You're correct that the page is out of date - because I haven't edited it in years. It's an archived page on my website. Whatever link took you there is outdated.
Here is his present site: http://www.petelevin.com/

You'll note there is no reference to greyhounds whatsoever.

As for the second article, note the date. This is already 8 years old.

Bridgeport (Shoreline Star) and The Woodlands are still open these 8 years later. The bill pending in Massachusetts was defeated. The other states did not have greyhound racing to begin with.


Will the industry be extinct by the year 2000, as is the goal of Campaign 2000, an effort launched by Susan Netboy and the Greyhound Protection League? Or will it be downsized to include numerous simulcast betting parlors and a small number of financially secure tracks offering live racing?
The answer to both questions is obviously, no.


Still, in a media age where only the most gory or “warm and fuzzy” stories are covered, the tremendous strides taken by people within the industry and those in the greyhound adoption movement go largely uncovered. In 1990, 3,500 retired greyhounds found homes; by 1995, the annual number had skyrocketed to 16,000 racers adopted through the efforts of 200 rescue groups. These dogs were bathed, vetted, neutered and placed in carefully screened homes. Only a shortage of funds, volunteers or responsible adopters will prevent the numbers from continuing to rise.
In fact the numbers have risen substantially.

Adoptions have increased by 1,000 to 1,500 dogs per year for almost two decades now. Greyhound Pets of America, the largest adoption group, recently celebrated its 60,000th adoption. There are 300+ adoption groups across the U.S. and Canada, and despite what you are often told, they are getting the job done.

Make Peace With Animals, headed by the well-respected author Cynthia Branigan (Reign Of The Greyhound, Adopting The Racing Greyhound), estimated in 2002 that 21,000 greyhounds were adopted out of a total number registered of approximately 27,000. Additionally, around 3,000 females are retained for breeding every year. That leaves a number far smaller than the "20,000" figure bandied about by GPL and others. The adoption/retention rate of greyhounds is around 90% and increases every year. With breedings trending downward and adoptions up every year, full adoption is in sight. GPA's goal is full adoption by 1997.

Here are the registrations the past several years.

2003 26,277
2002 27,142
2001 26,797
2000 26,464
1999 27,059
1998 26,036
1997 28,025
1996 28,877

In a country where 5-7 million pets are euthanized annually, greyhound racing is being held to a standard by which the general population does not itself adhere. Approximately 95% of all greyhounds either find homes or are retained for breeding, a percentage that would be the envy of any popular breed of dog. Soon it will be 100% and a standard by which every breed will be measured.

Martin Roper

[dukedogsmom]

Can we PLEASE not start this all over again?????

[Aspen and Misty]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Can we PLEASE not start this all over again?????

AGREED!!

Ash

[jcsperson]

The thread is clearly marked for what it is. People are entitled to read it or not.

One side has had free reign on this issue for some time on these boards, but now other voices have come in with differing opinions in a factual and nonconfrontational manner.

If this offends you move on.



(BTW, cute Rat.) We had Chinchillas for a number of years and enjoyed them. When we started with greyhounds we decided they weren't such a good idea. When our last Chin passed on we didn't get any more.

[dukedogsmom]

Yes, and it's been stated over and over in the other thread. Have a wonderful night.

[micki76]

Haven't we already had this discussion? Deja vu.

[jcsperson]

Since the Greyhound Racing Association web site was mentioned, I thought I'd toot its horn a bit as I am a member. The site has detailed background information on the raising and racing of greyhounds.

If you can stand a lot of puppy pictures, the Farm Life section has a lot of pics and interesting info:

http://www.gra-america.org/farmlife.html

On that page, if you click on the subheadings it will take you to further info on the rearing of greyhounds and their training:

- The Expecting Brood Matron
- Whelping Puppies
- The First 4 Months
- 5-12 Months
- 12-17 Months

This is one of my favorite pics:

http://www.gra-america.org/images/gallery/farm/71.jpg

[wolfie]

I missed the other arguement.... but I agree with lizbud


One side has had free reign on this issue for some time on these boards, but now other voices have come in with differing opinions in a factual and nonconfrontational manner.

If this offends you move on.

by move on do you mean leave pet talk? :(

And did you know that in RI (where I live) not too long ago some greyhounds at the racetrack tested positive for cocaine!!! Do you honestly think those owners cared about their dogs? No, they cared about making money off them winning.

And if they cared about their dogs, why would they put them up for adoption (at best), kill them, or dispose of them when they can't race anymore?

If you agree greyhounds shouldn't be subject to cruel exploitation then you agree with us. Argument over. If not I'm just going to ignore you from now on.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by wolfie
I missed the other arguement.... but I agree with lizbud

by move on do you mean leave pet talk? :(
No, I simply mean don't read the thread.


And did you know that in RI (where I live) not too long ago some greyhounds at the racetrack tested positive for cocaine!!!
Can you provide a link for the cocaine story in RI? I was not aware of that occurring at Lincoln.

I do know there was a similar incident in Florida. The State Gaming Commission there randomly tests dogs for drugs and there was a flap in the press that several dogs tested positive for trace amounts of cocaine in their systems. These would be thousands of times lower than required to affect the dogs and would be consistent with being handled at some point by an individual who had trace amounts of cocaine on his or her hands. If my memory serves me some 50 dogs had trace amounts in their systems out of 35,000 tested over a two-year period. It is pretty clear that the situation is not serious or widespread and has made no impact whatsoever on the dogs. Bank tellers often pick up similar amounts from handling bills that had been used for snorting cocaine.


Do you honestly think those owners cared about their dogs? No, they cared about making money off them winning. And if they cared about their dogs, why would they put them up for adoption (at best), kill them, or dispose of them when they can't race anymore?
I am an owner of racing greyhounds and pets. I do care about my dogs.

Most racing owners place their dogs through the more than 340 adoption groups across the country because they do care about them. More than 90% of racing greyhounds are adopted or retained for breeding.


If you agree greyhounds shouldn't be subject to cruel exploitation then you agree with us.
It just so happens that I own racing greyhounds and think they shouldn't be treated cruelly. The vast majority of racing people believe the same way.


Argument over. If not I'm just going to ignore you from now on
Translation: "Your point of view is incorrect and not worth listening to if it doesn't agree with mine."

What an enlightened point of view!

[wolfie]

Originally posted by jcsperson
Can you provide a link for the cocaine story in RI? I was not aware of that occurring at Lincoln.

http://www.idahocage.org/fyi.htm
halfway down, titled "Racing Greyhounds Test Positive for Cocaine..." (but I heard it on the TV news)



Most racing owners place their dogs through the more than 340 adoption groups across the country because they do care about them. More than 90% of racing greyhounds are adopted or retained for breeding.

If they cared about them they would keep them


Translation: "Your point of view is incorrect and not worth listening to if it doesn't agree with mine."

um, by the same logic, when you said "If this offends you move on." that would "translate" into the same thing.
I actually meant, "If you agree... then the arguement is over. And if you keep bringing up the arguement again I'll just take your advice and ignore you. :)"

[guster girl]

By stating "If this offends you move on.", he was simply referring to if the argument offends you or if you're tired of hearing the debate, not specifically his point of view. And, it was only stated because someone said the argument was over, and, it didn't need to be brought up again. I agree with jcsperson, though, the title of the thread is clear. I opened it because I'm still interested in hearing both sides, the debate is far from over, as long as there are people who agree with greyhound racing and people who don't, and, I feel like I've learned new things just from reading this thread. It's just like any other debate that pops up in here all the time. Perfect example is declawing. That is always going to be a controversial topic that will always spark a debate as long as some people declaw and some people don't. I think healthy debates are a good thing, even if one person will change their perspective or allow themselves to learn new things, then the debate was worthwhile. I have stopped opening the political threads because I'm tired of hearing about it. But, I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to state that in the thread itself. By not replying or posting, I'm making it clear that the topic is of no interest to me. Jcsperson has made all of his statements in here in an educated, polite manner, as far as I've seen. I've enjoyed reading every one of his posts, and, sincerely hope he doesn't stop writing them. As long as the debate can be civil, I'm all for any topic being discussed, no matter what my opinion on the subject may be. And, just for the record, I'm on the fence as far as greyhound racing goes.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by wolfie
http://www.idahocage.org/fyi.htm
halfway down, titled "Racing Greyhounds Test Positive for Cocaine..." (but I heard it on the TV news)
You'll note that of the thousands tested only 4 dogs had "trace amounts" in their system, thousandths of the dose required to create any effect whatsoever. ARA outfits like to post this stuff in their ongoing propaganda campaigns, but this story has had little or no traction in the press because everybody with an ounce of common sense sees there is no problem. Neither the RI or FL Racing Commissions saw any reason to take any action. No allegations were made against a single track, trainer or kennel.

When one thinks about it, giving cocaine to greyhounds makes no sense. Trainers are paid on a commission basis. If their dogs don't do well, the trainer doesn't make money. He feeds and supplements his dogs with the best possible diet in order for them to compete at peak ability. Cocaine has no performance-enhancing properties---why use it?

The likely answer is that workers who process the meat have cocaine on their hands and the dogs ingest it directly through the food.


If they cared about them they would keep them
If one owns dozens of dogs this is not practical. There are thousands of people, however, who want them. When they adopt a greyhound they get a trained, purebred dog with a wonderful temperament and a documented ancestry. Some folks are "pre-adopting" dogs from breeders and get to follow the dog's career at the track. Many breeders remain in touch with the adopters of their dogs. My breeder friend has her office bulletin board covered with pet pics of the dogs she bred, trained and raced. Most people don't hear things like this because ARA groups focus only on the most sensationalistic stories.

Greyhound breedings have trended down over the past several years and adoptions are way up. The two will intersect at full adoption in the forseeable future, perhaps as early as 2007.

[7up]

How would anyone know what percentage of greyhounds went where if the NGA won't even record this information and share it with the public? Do we just wait until jcsperson deems it so with unverifiable "estimates"?

Greyhounds are not registered until they are 1 1/2 years old. Your numbers don't even begin with the actual number whelped.
We have seen adult greyhounds who went into adoption that were never registered at all.

Florida has the largest concentration of greyhounds in the country. According to the adoption people there who work in the trenches, they are not able to take even half of the greyhounds needing to go into adoption each year. What do you suppose those "caring owners" do with the all their dogs?

Jay

[lizbud]

Maybe I should have better explained my intention in posting this thread. Sorry.

I wanted to show the wide range of opposition to Greyhound
Racing in the US. GRA tries it's to paint all opposed as wild
"animal rights" extremists and that's just not the case at all.

Whenever you have people,money and animals involved in a
glambling venture, you can "bet" it's the dogs who lose every
time. :( Greyhound Racing is a dying industry. The quicker, the
better. This beautiful breed deserves so much more.


I think this local state group deserves another plug.

http://www.idahocage.org/default.htm

[greysandmoregreys]

Just a comment about the dogs that tested positive to cocaine at Lincoln.

Martin there was a thread over on GT about this.

I knew one of the trainers that was listed that one of there dogs tested positive. The man has heart problems, has had I think 2 heart attacks, is about 45 and would never and has never used cocaine in his life!!!! I know this man personally can stand up for him.

I find it a bit silly for people to believe that someone would give cocaine to there dogs. For one thing the cost of cocaine. For 2 anyone who works at a race track knows how the pee test works and wouldn't try to sneak it by.

Now I"m not saying that they didn't test postive but you have to look at how many people handled these greyhounds from the time they left the trainers hands until the trainers picked them up after the race.

1) the lead out that held them on the scale
2) the lead out that brought them back to the jinny pit
3) the lead out that brought them back out of the jinny pit and reweighed them again
4) the paddock judge who read there ear numbers
5) the lead out that walked them out on the track
6) the box people that may have handled them at the boxes
7) any other leadout track personal that may have petted the dogs

So to blame one person, the trainer when so many other people handled the dog is just crazy.

I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform :D

Heather & the hounds

[guster girl]

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys


I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform :D

Heather & the hounds

I definitely want to learn more, from both sides. As long as it's done nicely, without making the people who have differing opinions feel stupid, then, I'm all for it. :)

[lizbud]

Quote:

"I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform "

Heather & the hounds


And who might those people be ?

You are welcome to start a pro racing thread if you like, but that's
not the purpose of this one. Thanks.


btw, Just noticed today's birthdays. Happy Birthday jspence.:)

[lizbud]

Originally posted by guster girl
I definitely want to learn more, from both sides. As long as it's done nicely, without making the people who have differing opinions feel stupid, then, I'm all for it. :)


I posted after you did. This thread is not meant to be a debate
between pro & con. It's information about groups who oppose
racing for profit & explotation of the Greyhound breed.

[rockingship]

Greetings....I was a greyhound trainer for many years, and I've even raised a few litters.......and have been pretty deeply interested in racing greyhound bloodlines for quite some time now, and provide bloodline analysis and info to breeders free of charge.

I can assure you that the whelping and registration numbers that the NGA records are above reproach. Each month, the breedings and whelpings are listed by litter and registrant, in the Greyhound Review....this information has always been public, and can be documented by anyone who wishes to take issue with the various fabrications that we see put forth by certain individuals or groups----or to check on the NGAs accuracy.

Every racing greyhound whelped, even the stillborn births, are reported and tabulated in th.e yearly whelping statistics. All protocols concerning the reportage and registration of matings and whelpings are mandatory, if the breeder wishes to race their greyhound. No state as yet recognizes any non-NGA registered greyhound as a legal racer. The various states regulate racing.

It is critically important to the racing greyhound breed, and to breeders, that scrupulous records are maintained, not only of bloodlines and of sires and dams--- but of their progeny and their performances.

Since racing greyhounds are selectively bred toward racing performance, and are selected for breeding as a result of their own racing abilities and aptitudes, it is important that accurate records of whelpings and registrations are kept----so that bloodlines and their progenitors can be objectively evaluted.....in terms of their opportunities, failures and successes, versus the population as a whole. The various effects of linebreeding, nicking patterns and outcrossing, can also be viewed in some sort of relative and objective context. ......which is, moreover, the essence of responsible, selective breeding.

For example, I don't simply want to learn that WW Time Warp (an accomplished young sire) is ranked in the top 20 sires.....or that he has sired 463 offspring.....nor do I merely wish to learn only that he has sired 168 top-grade winners......but I do need to know that he has had a significant number of breedings to provide a reliable sampling, versus his competitors, and that if 168 of his offspring have won top grade races....then his "strike rate" is 36.3%....which places him in the highest echelon of greyhounds who have had a similar number of breeding opportunities. ......upon further investigation (of his pedigree), I can see that he is the modern day exponent of the Rosary Meadows branch of the powerful Kiche female family----which is our foremost domestic sire-producing female family....and also the direct family of Hall of Fame immortals, like Downing and Rural Rube.

FYI.....There are 46 different female families of racing greyhounds, and they are all of critical importance to the racing breed. Some of them can be traced as far back as the 1700s, where records of progeny and performance were also kept..

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by 7up
How would anyone know what percentage of greyhounds went where if the NGA won't even record this information and share it with the public? Do we just wait until jcsperson deems it so with unverifiable "estimates"?

Greyhounds are not registered until they are 1 1/2 years old. Your numbers don't even begin with the actual number whelped.
We have seen adult greyhounds who went into adoption that were never registered at all.

Florida has the largest concentration of greyhounds in the country. According to the adoption people there who work in the trenches, they are not able to take even half of the greyhounds needing to go into adoption each year. What do you suppose those "caring owners" do with the all their dogs?

Jay,

You know better than that. The "adoption people who work in the trenches" have a keyhole view of the overall adoption picture. Are there dogs slipping through the cracks in Florida? You're damn right there are. The Panhandle tracks are the biggest obstacle to full adoption. Do those tracks reflect what is going on at the other Florida tracks or the entire industry? Are half the dogs in Florida put down? Are dogs that can't make it at tracks like Derby Lane/Tampa or Jacksonville/Orange Park, Hollywood/Flagler or Palm Beach put down? Do you know? They're not. Those are top-10 tracks and dogs that grade off at those tracks will be competitive elsewhere.

As usual, Jay, all you can do is snipe. My figures are based on the best information available. They are all estimates, but are still 1000% more scientific than your reference to people who see only the smallest slice of the big picture.

Rock gave you all the reasons why the NGA's breeding/whelping statistics require complete disclosure and accuracy. The numbers of dogs entering the system are clearly known. The number of adoptions can only be an estimate as many are adopted without benefit of an adoption group like 2 of my 5 greyhounds.

Lastly, the fact that there are unregistered greyhounds put into adoption seems to refute GPL's notion that every unregistered pup was "culled," doesn't it? Those buffoons have never figured out that puppy mortality even exists---how can they speak with authority when they don't know the first thing about dogs? If they are willing to lie or exaggrate about that what else do they make up?

FYI, Jay, greyhounds are registered at any age between tattoo (required before three months) and racing. Few people wait until the last minute as you suggest.

I'm a little disappointed in you, Jay. Sometimes we seem to be making some progress educating you, but it often seems a case of "two steps forward and one step back." I never expect you to be PR, but I do expect you to learn from these exchanges. Every time I think you're starting to "get it" you surprise me by going back into the wild supposition mode.

Whether we get any credit from you or not, whether you acknowledge it or not, whether you lie about it or not, 100% adoption is going to occur while you and the ARA crowd are still trying to figure out whether puppy culling exists or how many parts per million of cocaine constitutes abuse.

(NOTE TO OTHERS: Don't take this the wrong way---Jay and I always speak to each other like this :rolleyes: )

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by lizbud
This thread is not meant to be a debate between pro & con. It's information about groups who oppose racing for profit & explotation of the Greyhound breed.
I'm sorry, Lizbud, but if you post a list of groups that put out uninformed, ridiculous propaganda about greyhound racing and expect to get a free pass, you're badly mistaken. Go to GPL's web site and read up on "puppy culling" and "4D" meat---the stuff they post there is utter nonsense. If it wasn't outright slander it would be laughable.

That list of groups and individuals has filled your head and thousands of others with incredible fallacies that defy description. If you have the slightest intellectual curiousity, you would ask some pointed questions of the racing people who post here. You've got the full attention of one of the most experienced trainers in the industry and a world renowned pedigree expert (Rockingship), a breeder and owner of multiple kennels (greyandmoregreys), and a racing owner (yours truly). It may interest you to know I started out AR, but asked questions and poked around. The gulf between what I was told and what I saw was vast. I strongly suggest you do so, too.

There are two sides to every story. If you listen to both sides and come to a decision, no matter what it is, no one can fault you. If you listen to one side only, you are a fool.

Mr. Levin, whose site you proudly listed, listened to both sides and apparently thought that his original sources were no longer reliable. Maybe you should listen, too.

[7up]

Just to clarify what I meant was the NGA will not put a system into place where the owners must specify by which means their dogs exited the racing system. One question on a form they aleady fill out, would do it. Where did your dog go? Check one... adoption group, owner's couch, back to farm, research lab, put down, etc.

I know they publish the number of greyhounds whelped. I don't know why Martin does not begin with that number in his estimates. Obviously not every dog whelped who does not end up registered, falls into the "catch all" puppy mortality figure.

So to reiterate, I do not see how anyone can know what percentage of greyhounds are put down every year unless the NGA takes the initiative and counts them and it seems to me that they would want to do this if the numbers are as low as Martin estimates because it would benefit the reputation of the racing industry and put this whole argument (the biggest beef folks have about racing) to rest. And it would certainly show more concern for the welfare of the dogs they care so much about.

There is no other way to know if all greyhounds are being adopted or how many more we have left to go.

Jay

[jcsperson]

We went through all this with Ryan over on GT in the "Colorado" thread. She wanted a database NGA members could use to indicate the disposition of retired dogs, remember?

What would prevent the owner from simply checking the box "adopted" and sending it back to the NGA? Who would verify it actually happened? The new owner? The adoption group? If the owner did it, would you trust them? If the adoption group did it, wouldn't they have to register with the NGA as an official group? Would AR groups do it? If they reported every dog it might blow their stupid "20,000" figures right out of the water. Some of them openly discourage adopters from contacting owners. Most of these groups despise the NGA---what would make them want to work with them and help prove their figures?

What about where the owner gives the dog away directly? I got two of my five pets that way. Who verifies that?

Who monitors all this stuff? The NGA is tiny. I doubt they have even 20 full and part-time employees.

Jay, you and I know that if such a system were in place GPL and Grey2K still wouldn't believe "the numbers." There are still groups publishing "30,000" and "50,000" for crying out loud. Talk about out of touch with reality.

The NGA does not publish whelping figures, it publishes numbers of litters. Included in those, as we've repeated ad nauseum for you, are every stillbirth and puppy mortality. GPL and their ilk simply multiply average litter size, 6.5, times the number of litters, subtract the number of registrations from that and come up with the total of culls not taking into account the fact that puppy mortality even exists or that, as you pointed out, some unregistered dogs are available for adoption. To GPL they're just dead---no questions---all culled. Because of the way they use the figures, those idiots even have the stillborn pups listed as "culled." How stupid is that?

Let's use 2002 for an example. There were 27,142 registrations and 5,205 litters. The litters were actually whelped in 2002, but the registrants could have been born in 2000, 2001 or 2002 because pups are registered at different ages. For the purposes of this example, we'll pretend they were all whelped in 2002. 6.5 times 5,205 is 33,832 whelps, minus 27,142 is 6690, or 19.7% of total whelps. Let's just say greyhound farmers achieved the low end of most puppy mortality estimates of 15%; that leaves 4.7% of the puppies surviving to registration age. 5% of 6690 is 334 dogs. Even in the unlikely event that farmers somehow outperformed the results of every veterinary study of puppy mortality out there and achieved 10% that's still 669 pups.

Considering the margin for error inherent in any estimate, I don't think 300, 400 or even an unlikely 600 dogs change my figures all that much.

[jcsperson]

I just added up the litters reported from January through August 2004 and the total is 3,255. Multiplied by 1.5 we get 4,882, a reasonable projection of what the year-end total will be. If that holds up it will continue the downward trend in breedings over the past several years:

2004 4882*
2003 5171
2002 5205
2001 5015
2000 5234
1999 5266
1998 5034
1997 5192
1996 5438
1995 5749

*est.

If something close to the top figure holds up, overall numbers will have been reduced by 15% in the past decade and 39% from the all-time peak of 8049 in 1991.

With breeding numbers down and adoption numbers up dramatically every year, isn't it possible to assume that full adoption is achievable?

Is there any popular breed that can come close to making such a claim? Does the AKC publish similar numbers for all their breeds? Are AKC breeders required to provide documentation of breedings and litters? Who ensures that pups raised and sold for profit find suitable homes? Who are the watchdogs for Lab welfare, GSD welfare or Pit Bull welfare?

Who protests stuff like this or even cares?
CLOVERLEAF AIDS HS IN LABRADOR RESCUE
http://www.greybase.com/index.asp?mnx=1&subx=1&dismode=article&artid=197

Cloverleaf track personnel nursed those dogs back to health until they could go to shelters. All the survivors found homes. I wonder if that story made Greyhound Network News.

[rockingship]

What is a bit disturbing to me....and I'm entirely tired of debating the issue.....is when people see the AR propaganda, and hear the voices of political action groups like GPL and Grey2K....and then are appraised of the facts by those of us who have actual empirical knowledge of the breed and years of experience with the breed as professionals....but then somehow come to the conclusion that "the truth is somewhere in the middle".

In fact, the truth is nowhere near "the middle". The truth is that it is patently unreasonable for anyone to assert or assume that the majority of people, who rely upon their greyhounds performances to earn their living, or their families' living, do so by neglecting and abusing their racing greyhounds.

And even more incongruous, to suppose that a sporting industry, which is driven by profit, is rife with inhumane treatment of the creatures whose actual racing performances provide this profit....especially when the difference between a racing greyhound who might earn 50K in a career, and one who might never earn a penny, is about 7/10ths of a second over the course of a 30 second-long race.

There is a cause and effect relationship between the quality of care one affords their greyhounds, and the subsequent racetrack performances of those greyhounds----and the money they can earn.

While some caretakers are more skilled and perceptive than others, the overwhelming majority of them will achieve predictable results from an average kennel of dogs, and provide exceptional care for their racing greyhounds. If they didn't they would soon find themselves unemployed or penniless, or both.

In any profession involving the caretaking of animals, there are always those who fall outside the performance mean----or basic husbandry standards----whether by exceeding or falling below----just as there are racing greyhounds who greatly exceed or fall below the performance mean for the breed.

Sadly, we only hear of the activites of the handful of maladjusted individuals who occasionally abuse or neglect their racing greyhounds, or run afoul of the rules. This makes for sensational storytelling.....but it disgusts true racing professionals even more than it does the public at large.

When the insinuation is further made, that neglect and abuse of highly-bred and finely tuned racing athletes is the norm, and not the abberration----those of us who are racing professionals, and who know that this is not the case, by virtue of decades of experience within the racing profession and with the breed, feel slurred and injured by the accusation. That shouldn't be hard for anyone to understand.

What I think I see here, seems to be a group of people who are speaking out against a "system" which employs racing greyhounds as money-earning athletes. That's fine. Racing isn't for everybody.

What I hope they can learn, is that the vast majority of greyhound professionals they will encounter on these message boards, and/or in their personal lives, are extremely dedicated and well versed handlers and caretakers of racing greyhounds, and unabashed custodians and champions of the racing breed.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by rockingship
What is a bit disturbing to me....and I'm entirely tired of debating the issue.....is when people see the AR propaganda, and hear the voices of political action groups like GPL and Grey2K....and then are appraised of the truth by those of us who have actual empirical knowledge of the breed and years of experience with the breed as professionals....but then somehow come to the conclusion that "the truth is somewhere in the middle.
That is my pet peeve, Rock.

It's intellectual laziness. For many it's too much of a bother to actually read and think to come to a meaningfull conclusion---"splitting the difference" is the easy way out. People think they're compromising when they are really giving equal weight to two arguments regardless of their merit. That's why AR groups purposely exaggerate their numbers with preposterous ideas like puppy culling. They know some people are gullible enough to believe them outright. They also know many people will be inclined to "split the difference" which will always make the numbers far worse than they actually are.

[wolfie]

That's wonderful that you all care about your dogs, their health, ect... but really isn't greyhound racing all about money and winning? If you just wanted your dogs to have fun you could do lure coursing (for fun... and for their whole life). I have never made $1 off my dogs, but they are my family. I keep them their whole lives because I love them. If owners really cared about them they would keep their dogs.


If one owns dozens of dogs this is not practical. There are thousands of people, however, who want them.

Then only aquire new dogs if you can care for them. If there were less greyhounds in need of a home, then those people who would adopt greyhounds might get a dog from the pound instead. And save some of those millions of innocent lives that get euthanized at the pounds every year.

I'm sorry but you can't be a 'responsible owner' if you dump your dog off at rescue after his career, and add to the huge dog overpopulation. :(

I'm done with this thread.

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by guster girl
I definitely want to learn more, from both sides. As long as it's done nicely, without making the people who have differing opinions feel stupid, then, I'm all for it. :)

I agree. And I think we are lucky we have new members who are willing and able to articulate and debate boths sides of the issue with facts. I don't have anything to contricute to the disccusion, but I have enjoyed reading and learning fromthe back and forth debate.

[rockingship]

Greyhound racing is different things to different people. For me, personally, it was never simply "about the money"....though it was gratifying to be paid for something I would have done for free if I could have afforded to.

The industry that has evolved around greyhound racing is certainly about money.....and the only reason that greyhound racing exists in its traditional incarnation, is because the various localities have sought it out, and have actuated it, by public sanction, to raise public monies.

As far as the racing breed is concerned, racing and the monies that it generates, are the only thing preserving the genetic wellsprings of the racing greyhound. If one understands anything at all about selective breeding, and the expenses intrinsic to it, then it is not necessary for me to expound upon why this is so crucial to an entire population of racing greyhounds, and whatever future populations are to emerge.

It always puzzles me how one can feel so strongly connected and concerned about a single racing greyhound, yet be seemingly oblivious to the racing population, and the current and long term prospects, and the well being and integrity of the breed. These need not be mutually exclusive concerns----and they had better not be, if we are to perpetuate the breed in the future, as functional, genetically sound and physically and dispositionally well-adapted.

For the time being, greyhound racing is the device which preserves and nurtures-----and supports-----the vast and diverse familial structures and genetic reserviors of the racing greyhound. In the unthinkable event that these are ever lost, they are lost forever.

Humane concerns for racing greyhounds go hand in hand with the concept of "breed" and breed custodianship....breed custodainship encompasses not simply procreation of racing greyhounds, but procreation of functional, genetically diverse and well-adapted members of the population. There is no breed in the world which can compare to the racing greyhound in that regard.....and it is racing that has enabled the breed to flourish, and kept its genetic reserviors pure and full. While it is an imperfect system, it's the best one we have devised so far.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by wolfie
That's wonderful that you all care about your dogs, their health, ect... but really isn't greyhound racing all about money and winning? If you just wanted your dogs to have fun you could do lure coursing (for fun... and for their whole life). I have never made $1 off my dogs, but they are my family. I keep them their whole lives because I love them. If owners really cared about them they would keep their dogs.

Then only aquire new dogs if you can care for them. If there were less greyhounds in need of a home, then those people who would adopt greyhounds might get a dog from the pound instead. And save some of those millions of innocent lives that get euthanized at the pounds every year.

I'm sorry but you can't be a 'responsible owner' if you dump your dog off at rescue after his career, and add to the huge dog overpopulation. :(

I'm done with this thread. Greyhound racing isn't "all about money and winning" anymore than dog shows are just about winning. Racing is the only thing that sustains the greyhound as a viable breed. AKC greyhound breeders have had shows and coursing for decades and manage to produce less than 200 grotesquely inbred examples per year.

The fact that there is a little money to be made in racing is why racing greyhounds are the best-bred dogs on earth. There is an incentive to preserve the breed, even make it better, because there is a performance standard to be met rather than just one of appearance.

At first I think many people adopted greyhounds out of pity thanks to all the AR propaganda. I did. Then a curious thing happened---people fell in love with the breed. I can't tell you how many times I hear people say, "I'll never have anything but a greyhound from now on." They're becoming savvy about racing and bloodlines. Some are pre-adopting dogs---making arrangements with breeders to adopt dogs after their racing careers are over. More new adopters discover the breed every day---I don't think the majority feel like they have a dog someone "dumped." They wanted an adult, purebred, trained dog and they got one.

If you're worried about overbreeding you should direct your ire at people who purposely breed mixes without regard to the results. At counties and municipalities who don't require breeding licenses for people with unneutered animals. At people who "dump" pets at kill shelters.

In a nation of 300,000,000 people we need to find just 3,000 more, 1 ten-thousandth of a percent of the population, who will learn to love this breed and we will have achieved what no other breed can say it has---full adoption. It's going to happen.

[wolfie]

Originally posted by jcsperson
If you're worried about overbreeding you should direct your ire at people who purposely breed mixes without regard to the results. At counties and municipalities who don't require breeding licenses for people with unneutered animals. At people who "dump" pets at kill shelters.

Yes, these people are all involved in adding to the problem of dog overpopulation, and homeless dogs. But so are breeders, and so are people who relinquish their dogs to rescues. If you think others should care more about dog overpopulation, why don't you set a good example?

I like this:
http://www.shilohproject.org/Lettertobreeders.htm

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by wolfie
Yes, these people are all involved in adding to the problem of dog overpopulation, and homeless dogs. But so are breeders, and so are people who relinquish their dogs to rescues. If you think others should care more about dog overpopulation, why don't you set a good example?

I like this:
http://www.shilohproject.org/Lettertobreeders.htm
I read the article; it makes some good points, but misses the mark on breed custodianship. Though she said she had "researched it," the author lacks a clear understanding of all that entails.

Did you read the statistics she provided?


7-8% come from commercial breeders, many of which are filthy and cruel puppy mills that contribute the sickliest dogs to the population.
If 7-8% of the total population is created by breeders, and a significant portion of those are "puppy mills," then perhaps 5% of dogs are bred by legitimate breeders. Their contribution to the problem, using her own figures, is miniscule.

Besides, these are the dogs we want. There are breeds well worth preserving and the dedicated people who raise them are the custodians of the destiny of those breeds. That is an awesome responsibility and one not taken lightly.

BTW, there are no "backyard" or "puppy mill" greyhound breeders. They are far too expensive and demanding to raise and train to be bred on the cheap by amateurs. They aren't raised to a cute puppy age and sold quickly with little invested, but to 18 months by which time they have consumed vast amounts of food and had great numbers of hours of individualized training by professional trainers. A track-ready dog costs $3500 to $50,000 dollars. You can't mass produce that or do it cheaply.

Look, I love dogs. I love my brother's Bullmastiffs. I love my neighbor's crazy Jack Russell. I love my other neighbor's sweet, sweet Basset Hound. I pet everyone's dogs, purebred or mixed, we meet on our walks. I understand the desire to want to save them all, but making greyhound racing or AKC purebreds the whipping boy for pet overpopulation is seriously misplaced.

We're looking for more homes for 3,000 dogs who will be adopted by people who want a greyhound, not another purebred or a mix. That's my mission---it's just that simple.

[wolfie]

Gary Patronek, show breeders contribute about 1.8 million puppies to the U.S. dog population each year. He estimates that that is about 29% of all the new dogs born in the U.S., a much larger percentage than I had thought.

and if you add up the other totals she gave and subtract it from 100%, you get 29% again.

[jcsperson]

The argument still makes no sense. Essentially, she argues that responsible breeders should cut back because irresponsible people won't.

She has misplaced the blame. What happened to personal responsibility? If a breeder is doing things right why should he or she have to cut back because others are irresponsible? To me that does nothing more than penalize the people who are part of the solution---some of whom might have a family business in the raising and selling of dogs as guide, police, military, drug interdiction, search and rescue, tracking and yes, race dogs.

I'm getting just a little sick of people telling me that somebody else will have a little more if I have a little less, especially if those who have a little less are not my doing. Blaming greyhound racing for all the dogs that get put down in shelters is an argument that makes no sense whatsoever.

[aly]

Originally posted by jcsperson


If one owns dozens of dogs this is not practical. There are thousands of people, however, who want them. When they adopt a greyhound they get a trained, purebred dog with a wonderful temperament and a documented ancestry. Some folks are "pre-adopting" dogs from breeders and get to follow the dog's career at the track. Many breeders remain in touch with the adopters of their dogs. My breeder friend has her office bulletin board covered with pet pics of the dogs she bred, trained and raced. Most people don't hear things like this because ARA groups focus only on the most sensationalistic stories.

Greyhound breedings have trended down over the past several years and adoptions are way up. The two will intersect at full adoption in the forseeable future, perhaps as early as 2007.

Its just too bad that since these dogs are bred SO much and so many need to go up for adoption, that they are taking homes away from other shelter dogs on death row.

(I'm in a hurry and haven't read all the posts so sorry if someone has already said this)

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by aly
Its just too bad that since these dogs are bred SO much and so many need to go up for adoption, that they are taking homes away from other shelter dogs on death row.
For the last time, it is not greyhound racing's fault there are other purebreds and mixed breeds in shelters.

And do I have to point out, yet again, that the trend in greyhound breeding is down. If racing greyhounds were bred under the auspices of the AKC, they wouldn't nearly be among the most popular breeds.

2001

1 Labrador retrievers. 165,970
2 Golden retrievers. 62,497
3 German shepherds. 51,625
4 Dachshunds. 50,478
5 Beagles. 50,419
6 Yorkshire terriers. 42,025
7 Poodles. 40,550
8 Boxers. 37,035
9 Chihuahuas. 36,627
10 Shih Tzus. 33,240

http://www.petplace.com/articles/artShow.asp?artID=4618

Greyhounds don't even come close to making the top 10 at 26,797. Additionally, there are a large number of the more popular breeds that are bred without "papers" where there are very few greyhounds that are unregistered.

So who gets the blame for overbreeding? Greyhounds, of course.

[aly]

Originally posted by jcsperson
For the last time, it is not greyhound racing's fault there are other purebreds and mixed breeds in shelters.

No it isn't their fault. But they are mass-produced for racing. I'm not sure of the numbers bred compared to the numbers of Labs bred, but I'd imagine it is overwhelming. Sorry again if I brought up a point that has already been discussed. I'll be back later today!

[dukedogsmom]

Other purebreds and mixed breeds for the main part, weren't victims of someone's greed by making money off them. Then, when they can no longer produce that money, are thrown away and added to the already strained rescue groups. Owning an animal is for life, not until they can no longer race, show, whatever. I don't see how some of you can come here and try to defend yourselves when you're part of the problem. So, why don't you start enjoying yourself here at PT and start commenting on other people's pets instead of just this one part. That would make it much more enjoyable for everyone.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by aly
No it isn't their fault. But they are mass-produced for racing. I'm not sure of the numbers bred compared to the numbers of Labs bred, but I'd imagine it is overwhelming. Sorry again if I brought up a point that has already been discussed. I'll be back later today!

See my post above. It's not even close. Registered AKC Labs outnumber NGA and AKC greyhounds combined by more than 6 to 1. My guess is that the difference in the number of Labs without papers and the number of greyhounds unregistered is even greater.

Greyhounds are not "mass-produced." Greyhounds are bred for a specific business. They cannot be "overbred" because they are subject to the supply and demand requirements of the racing business. There are only so many tracks and so many kennels. Breeders who overbreed risk raising cost and labor-intensive dogs with no place to send them. Few people outside of the racing business can appreciate the time, expense and labor of raising a fully-trained dog to 18 months of age rather than 8 weeks of age for quick sale as a pet.

Nobody is going to pay $3500 for a race-ready 18 month-old greyhound as a pet. Nobody is going to risk raising puppies to 18 months of age when their investment is $3500 if there is little likelihood that that money will be recouped, either by selling the dog or from earnings at the track. There has not been a track closing or opening in several years and not coincidentally, there has been remarkable stability in the number of breedings over the same period. Supply and demand---anybody who stayed awake during Econ 101 understands that.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Other purebreds and mixed breeds for the main part, weren't victims of someone's greed by making money off them. Then, when they can no longer produce that money, are thrown away and added to the already strained rescue groups. Owning an animal is for life, not until they can no longer race, show, whatever. I don't see how some of you can come here and try to defend yourselves when you're part of the problem. So, why don't you start enjoying yourself here at PT and start commenting on other people's pets instead of just this one part. That would make it much more enjoyable for everyone.
I see the folks who were "sick of it" and making "my last post on this topic" seem willing to jump back in with an opinion. Welcome back.

I'm sorry, but greed has little to do with it. This is an expensive hobby for me---I'm losing money at it and I love it just the same. Just like people who have show dogs spend tens of thousands of dollars on dogs and RVs, I've spent a lot of money on greyhounds. They are my passion. I watched them whelp. I've picked them up and kissed them when they were seconds old. Whether my dogs or someone else's, I always whisper, "You will win the Hollywood World Classic" in their tiny ears after I kiss them. I figure if I kiss enough puppies I'm sure to be right eventually. I visit my pups every chance I get even though the farm is 2 hours away. I watch every race I can on Rosnet.

In the summer when I have lots of time off, I visit the track in FL and watch them race. I couldn't be more proud if these were my kids playing in the championship game. I love the look of utter contentment they have on their faces when they walk off the track whether they win or lose. That means more to me than the couple hundred bucks they might have won. These are running dogs. They are never happier than when they are running.

Don't lecture me about greed. If it were about money I obviously wouldn't be doing it. It's about something far more important than that---something you couldn't possibly fathom unless you spent 30 seconds in my shoes watching them run.

[7up]

I figure if I kiss enough puppies I'm sure to be right eventually.


You've been reading too many fairy tales Martin.

Jay

[lizbud]

Groups opposed to Greyhound Racing continued,


http://www.gcnm.org/


http://www.lcanimal.org/cmpgn/cmpgn_011.htm

Article from Dog Fancy "Born to run or bred to die"

http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/about/body_king.html

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by 7up
You've been reading too many fairy tales Martin.
The good news is I get to play with puppies whether one wins the World Classic or not. :)

[jcsperson]

Lizbud,

You picked some real losers there.

The woman who runs GCNM alienated her volunteers to such a degree with her hystrionics they broke off and formed a neutral adoption group.

The other is a Grey2K wannabe. The figures on their site have no basis in fact. Here's a gem:


Thus only about 30% of the newborns will ever become racers; 20,000-28,000 surplus greyhounds are destroyed each year.
How do they know this? How can more dogs be put down than whelped? If it weren't so malicious it would be funny. FYI, 80% of all pups win a Maiden race.

Check the date of the article from Dog Fancy, buried all the way down at the bottom in the fine print, 1991. That was mostly a hatchet job then and it is out of date now.

You can cut and paste all day, but you'll never uncover anything resembling the truth unless you get off your butt and away from the computer and see things for yourself.

Do you honestly believe this stuff?

[rockingship]

Perhaps after reading the silly Dog Fancy article....some of you would like to read a true story, by a real trainer, about a real greyhound....the story takes place in Revere MA, circa 1982.....enjoy...

Master Chee

I don't quite recall the exact circumstances when I first noticed him. He never did anything in the kennel that would draw your attention to him. Just went about his business in the quiet and gentlemanly fashion that characterizes most of the heroes of his breed and of his sport.

He was a medium-sized, dark brindle fellow, who was very correctly conformed. He had a bit of refinement about his head, which was almost effeminate, but not quite. Maybe it was his eyes. He was nearly perfectly balanced---- neither too long, nor too tall, and not too fine, not too coarse. He was supple and lithe, not blocky and muscular.

He was reserved of nature, and never boisterous. He walked with a slightly stiff, side to side shuffle....and that, rather than the considerable graying of his muzzle, spoke eloquently to the ardor with which he had long been in relentless pursuit of the lures at Multnomah and Revere.

I had heard that he was kept in the home of his owner in Portland, where the locals had the option of doing such things, and could still race their dogs of their own accord. The legend had it that he used to ride around with his owner in the car, and was plied with the various entrapments of decadent modernity---- like hot dogs and ice cream--- and that he was otherwise treated like anything but a professional race dog. He was sent to us each season as the racing wound down in Oregon, and not always none-the-worse-for-wear. He ran hard every time he raced.

He had a balky right shoulder. He had a balky right hip. He liked to be as close to the rail as a greyhound could position himself, and he was a skillful enough and experienced enough a campaigner, to nearly always avoid the serious troubles that the sharp and trying first turn at Revere could often present.

He could leave the box as quickly as most other greyhounds, but against the iron of the current lot of sprinters, he would have some trouble keeping up with them as they rushed to the turn. He was perfectly suited, by nature and breeding, to be a 6 turn, 600 yard specialist, where the quick breakers, who are railers and who are courageous when running the turns, can break from the box and race right into one. But the 3/8ths course was particularly testing at Revere, and slightly longer than the standard 660 yards. I thought it was too much to ask of him at this point in his career.

With a little concentration on his particular areas of bother and concern, it was apparent, this year, as in those previous, despite his advanced age, that he would again be competing against the best greyhounds at the Wonderland oval----who in those days, were some of the best in the country.

The lament, among his intimates, was that he had never had a chance at a major stakes championship in his younger days, because there was always some nagging little injury that kept him from competing at the various times when opportunity presented itself.

Master Chee was as hard-trying a greyhound I ever knew. As reserved and polite a kennel-dweller and companion as he was, he was twice the huntsman, when the chase was on. The mere sight of the racetrack transformed him.

This was the last year that we were to share one another's company. I knew it, and I think maybe Chee knew it, too. And as we began what I figured was to be the final chapter of his career as a racer, he had his usual bad luck of the draw, failing to post inside the 5 hole for what seemed like an eternity of racing. As usual, he delivered a string of stirring, skillful, hard-knocking, hard luck and hard-earned placings and showings against the best greyhounds the Northeast had to offer, and who were mostly 2 and 3 years his junior.

Chee was a pleasure to be around. After a race, it seemed to me, he was always appreciative of my ministrations to him, considering his age and somewhat delicate condition…. and each time he ran, it seemed that it was his way of saying thanks..'you take care of me, and I'll take care of business".

Sometimes you just know what they are feeling for you, and I always knew that Chee and I connected on this level. He loved to run, and I loved to help him and then to watch him run. He certainly wasn't the fastest greyhound I ever handled, or even in the kennel at the time. But he was the most clever, and maybe the bravest.

As the autumn wore on and turned into the brittle winter, I became a bit concerned about Master Chee . He just couldn't buy a break and draw an inside box, from where he was particularly effective. He had raced admirably from the outside, from where it seemed the cruel fates had 'seeded' him forever. But he needed an inside post at this stage of the game, to be able to display his true talents, which though in decline, were still apparent, to anyone who had been paying attention.

Around this time, a greyhound named Rediscovery was burning up the track, and humbling even the fastest greyhounds on the grounds, overpowering them with an irresistible turn of foot on the backstretch, and from the midtrack line he preferred----which was the golden trip, on the rail-heavy Revere oval.

He had won 13 races in a row, breaking in at Las Vegas, and since shipping to New England, had taken 10 races out of 11. He was a flashy white greyhound, dappled with red brindle patches, and when you watched his races on the in-house monitors, running in full pursuit, he appeared to be a blur. He was that fast. Many were suggesting that he would be more than a match for the great OK Troy and Hondo Monopoly, who were also to be in the mix at Wonderland.

Master Chee--- finally, one day--- drew a 3 hole in the feature race. However, poor old Chee was to face the very same Rediscovery, who was breaking from the inside box----where he didn't actually want to be. Not that it made much difference. Rediscovery hadn't yet been hooked by anyone in his career.

That night, while walking the dogs up to weigh in, one of the other trainers, good naturedly, asked me..

"Who is that gray-faced dog, Dennis?..... Man.....how old is HE??"

I just mentioned that he was just some old dog from Portland, and let it go at that.

Truth was, Chee looked tremendous for his age, grey face and all. He was shining like an apple, and seemed to have eased out of his aches and pains during the last 2 months. He was all class and heart, even though he didn't necessarily suggest it as he ambled stiffly along, never seeming to notice the other greyhounds. He knew why he was there, though.

I don't remember much of what happened after that, on the night in question. But the feature race was to prove more than memorable to me, if to no one else. As they announced Master Chee as the number 3 greyhound, he went to the patrol judge with the same abundant grace and quiet dignity that he exhuded in the kennel, and I looked at him admiringly, and with a sense of awe, at how long and how well he had performed all his career.... and thought to myself how fortunate I was to have known him. I was so darn proud of him.

When the box sprang open, Master Chee had jumped first. He was looking to move to the rail, but Rediscovery had control of it, and was out-rushing Chee to the turn. I could see it then, in my imagination.....

......the white dog cuts Chee off, as he moves to the center of the track to take his preferred line on the turn, and Chee offstrides and falls behind.......it had been that sort of year for Chee.....but as they passed the wire for the first time, Rediscovery was already clear of Chee and displaying unbelievable brilliance in his move to the bend.

Chee took the rail as Rediscovery moved out to his lane at the point of the turn, and he ran the turn tight and fast, and actually picked up a length on the leader. Chee had pulled about even with the blur as they straightened out into the backstretch, but Rediscovery gruesomely poured the pressure on, and drew clear again by a length, before they even came to the toteboard.

Chee was moving well on the deep part of the track, but he was no match for the sensational white dog, as they passed the tote, and swung into the far turn. Still, he strode on, grimly, and they had separated themselves from the field.

Rediscovery was on the mid-track, and Chee was flanking him on the rail, saving precious ground, but laboring against the depth of it. As they entered the stretch, it was hard to tell who was actually in front, or by how much, from our head-on vantage point by the escape turn, at the end of the homestretch-----but it was apparent, by the deafening roar of the crowd, that Rediscovery had finally been hooked.

And as they raced through the grueling, long and tiring Wonderland homestretch, the venerable old warrior from the west, brittle and battle-scarred though he was, would not be broken. He dauntlessly gave Rediscovery all he could handle, and then some….and 50 yards from the wire, began to draw away, going on to win the race by a widening length.

He had a tired twinkle in his eye when they brought him off. He knew what he had done. I wrapped him in his warm blanket and gave him a head scratch and an 'attaboy, Chee', as his tail wagged a cursory acknowledgment.

The publicity guy at the track came up to me and started asking me all about Master Chee , and offered his appraisal that he ran a 'hell of a race', or something like that. The official took the urine sample, and Chee ambled off stiffly as usual, to get his post race drink and to have his feet washed.

As we made our way over to the trainer's room, I spotted Rediscovery, and his trainer......and I mentioned to him....

"Remember this guy you were asking about?....the one with the grey muzzle?"

As soon as he realized that he had been had, we both shared a good laugh. Chee was, after all, nearly 5 years old, ancient for a racing greyhound. I didn't see any need to mention that to my cohort.

When we got back to the kennel, I took Chee out to the turnout pens, to make sure he was all right. He came over and nuzzled my leg, and looked at me with those guileless, honest, liquid---almost effeminate----dark brown eyes of his, as if to say....'you didn't think that I was gonna let you down tonight, did you?'

We went inside, and I rubbed him with strong linament and put him to bed. And then I bent down and held his head in my hands, just looking, for a moment, at that noble, old grey muzzle, and truly trying to appreciate the wonder of what I had just beheld, and how lucky I was to have known one of the better greyhound angels.

Not too long afterwards, Chee was to return to Portland, and finish out his career there. I would never see him again. He had, as it turned out, saved his best performances for last, though. You see, in another feature race, soon after dismantling Rediscovery, old Master Chee----maybe as a going away present to me, I don't really know, but I like to think so-----did the same darn thing to the great Hondo Monopoly.

Well, the time always comes......and there is a time for goodbyes, and we said ours.......and Chee went home to Oregon. I took some comfort in figuring that when there were little Master Chees, I might be fortunate enough to handle one that was his spirit and his image.

One morning, a couple of weeks after Chee had departed, I was having my coffee, while some of the greyhounds were walking on the treadmill, and was only half-looking at the most recent copy of the Racing Record---which was a tabloid, weekly trade paper, featuring results, stories and race charts from every track across the country.

I noticed a picture of a stakes winner standing on the two-tiered dias, as they usually have them do for the winner's picture, for the owner's scrapbook..and though it was a small picture, the type below identified the principals.

'Pictured are.......from left to right...... the leadout....the patrol judge......and......the director of racing.....who presents the winning trophy to the owner of the Portland Inaugural Champion....... Master Chee'.

Copyright, 2003

[7up]

I am curious to know from any folks who might still be reading this, if you had ever previously considered adopting a greyhound, what effect would all this new information have on your decision? Good, bad or no effect at all?

Jay

[7up]

Sorry Rock, I didn't mean to step all over Master Chee like that. My question applied to everything writen before it.

Jay

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by 7up
Sorry Rock, I didn't mean to step all over Master Chee like that. My question applied to everything writen before it. Perhaps your question makes more sense with the Master Chee story included.

[rockingship]

Originally posted by 7up
Sorry Rock, I didn't mean to step all over Master Chee like that. My question applied to everything writen before it.

Jay

:)....no problem Jay....it was a good question.

[K9soul]

Originally posted by 7up
I am curious to know from any folks who might still be reading this, if you had ever previously considered adopting a greyhound, what effect would all this new information have on your decision? Good, bad or no effect at all?

Jay

I'm not entering into this debate anymore myself but I'll answer this. For me it is unchanged, I have been interested and have wanted to adopt a greyhound for a long time, and still have a strong desire to. I very much hope that it will be possible for me in the next couple years.

[lizbud]

Originally posted by jcsperson
Lizbud,

You picked some real losers there.


Do you honestly believe this stuff?


Oh, there are some real losers around here alright, and they've
all joined recently. Why don't you start a thread on reasons why
anyone here should take your word on the Greyhound racing
industry. You are all part of the problem.

Why don't you go ahead and start your own thread? What's the
matter, afraid no one else will join in ?

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by lizbud
Oh, there are some real losers around here alright, and they've
all joined recently. Why don't you start a thread on reasons why
anyone here should take your word on the Greyhound racing
industry. You are all part of the problem.

Why don't you go ahead and start your own thread? What's the
matter, afraid no one else will join in ?
Name-calling is a sure sign you have run out of meaningful things to say.

Thanks for giving us the opportunity to point out the extremist point of view of the members of your list. Any time a message can be as shrill and nonsensical as theirs there is almost certainly a point worth listening to from the other side. I never tire of showing the many fallacies in their claims.

[greysandmoregreys]

So please let me apologies then. Didn't know that you had control over the tread because you started it. My bad (sarcasam ;) )

If someone starts a thread about feeding there dogs only popcorn and they feel it's right should no one correct them that there wrong? Should no one place information why it is incorrect to only feed your dog popcorn?

Or should we just let it go on and laugh to ourself?

I've said many times that each and everyone of us is entitled to our own oppinions and each and everyone of us is entitled to reply anyway they feel fit. That is without being down right nasty.

If you don't chose to hear another side of something then maybe you should just surround yourself with the people that will only tell you that you are correct and right and not place it on a message board where surely there will be others that disagree with what your saying.


Originally posted by lizbud
Quote:

"I didn't think this whole racing thing would be brought up again but it looks as if some people would like to learn more and we are always willing to inform "

Heather & the hounds


And who might those people be ?

You are welcome to start a pro racing thread if you like, but that's
not the purpose of this one. Thanks.


btw, Just noticed today's birthdays. Happy Birthday jspence.:)

[DogLover9501]

OMG Is this STILL going on?!?!?

[greysandmoregreys]

Originally posted by lizbud
Oh, there are some real losers around here alright, and they've
all joined recently. Why don't you start a thread on reasons why
anyone here should take your word on the Greyhound racing
industry. You are all part of the problem.

Why don't you go ahead and start your own thread? What's the
matter, afraid no one else will join in ?

Well thank you for such a warm welcome :D

who would "you all" might be?

You don't know us, you don't know what we do to improve greyhound racing.

NO we are not all part of the problem we are all part of improving greyhound racing.

Maybe to you the only way to improve greyhound racing is to make it go away.

As I"ve said before we are each entitled to our own oppinions.

[dukedogsmom]

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
Mayybe to you the only way to improve greyhound racing is to make it go away.
As I"ve said before we are each entitled to our own opinions.
I wish these threads would go away. They're creating lots of negativity and not you, but some others, have been condescending to some of us here. Also, it appears they just joined to reply to the couple of greyhound threads and nothing else. That's not what this place is about, hence why I put what I did in my signature. It got old a long time ago. Let's move on.

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
I wish these threads would go away. They're creating lots of negativity and not you, but some others, have been condescending to some of us here. Also, it appears they just joined to reply to the couple of greyhound threads and nothing else. It got old a long time ago. Let's move on.

I agree! I am so sick and tired of these threads:rolleyes:

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

Originally posted by 7up
I am curious to know from any folks who might still be reading this, if you had ever previously considered adopting a greyhound, what effect would all this new information have on your decision? Good, bad or no effect at all?

I don't want to get into this big argument or whatever you want to call it, but I just wanted to reply to this. I have considered adopting a greyhound for a long time because i think they are very beautiful dogs who deserve a second chance in life, this thread has not changed my opinion what so ever about adopting one.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
I wish these threads would go away. They're creating lots of negativity and not you, but some others, have been condescending to some of us here. Also, it appears they just joined to reply to the couple of greyhound threads and nothing else. That's not what this place is about, hence why I put what I did in my signature. It got old a long time ago. Let's move on.
dukedogsmom,

Thank you yet again for the warm welcome. I can't tell you how much it makes us feel appreciated.

Several of you have a lovely technique here on PT of becoming tired of threads when opinions contrary to yours are posted, especially those that are authoritative and well presented. You have not made one substantive contribution to this thread yet you have taken it upon yourself to denigrate it on more than one occasion.

As for condesecending, I recall your post to Cali:


Obviously Cali has never seen a documentary on Greyhounds.
You and several other PTers excoriated that young lady in the most vicious manner when very few of you had the slightest idea of what you were talking about. You just parroted the party line on greyhound racing when the grand sum of your actual experience with it seems to be a TV documentary and some extremist web sites. My guess is you have never been to a track, a kennel or a farm.

Your behavior towards her was shameful. As adults you should be embarassed for your conduct. She may have exaggerated slightly when she said she knew "hundreds" of people in the racing business, but she certainly has conversed with dozens of us on GT, including some of the biggest names in racing. You, meanwhile, appear to have discussed this only among yourselves and did not see fit to even search for another side of the story.

If there is anybody creating negativity here, it is those people, utterly ignorant of the issues, who have made it their business to slander with the broadest brush possible everyone in racing or even those who have a tolerant attitude of it.

You can't shout us down or roll your eyes and wish these threads away. The issues are important and some people want to read about them. You are free to ignore them---since it appears that you are not interested in hearing our side of the story I suggest that you don't read these threads.

[micki76]

IMO, this belongs in the Dog House, not Dog General.

*sigh*

[aly]

Originally posted by 7up
I am curious to know from any folks who might still be reading this, if you had ever previously considered adopting a greyhound, what effect would all this new information have on your decision? Good, bad or no effect at all?

Jay

None of the racing information has an impact on whether I would adopt a greyhound. I know and love the breed and my views on that haven't changed. I would adopt from a rescue or shelter, wherever I found the right one. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a retired racer.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by micki76
IMO, this belongs in the Dog House, not Dog General.

*sigh*
Right on cue Micki. Thanks for weighing in with your opinion.

As with dukedogsmom above, I'm sorry that this thread is boring you. Like the rest of your friendly crowd, you seemed more than willing to jump all over people who disagreed with you in the first greyhound thread. Were you one of those who posted anonymously on GT to attack that individual over there?

Remember this one?:


You just have no clue. Grow up and realize that you DON'T know everything about every thing. Open yourself up to learning something once in a while instead of acting like your opinion and "experience" is the only thing that's real.
I won't suggest that you need to grow up, but I do suggest you heed your own advice. Considering that your own background in greyhounds is as small as hers, your opinion and your "experience" count for no more or less than hers (at least she spent a great deal of time on GT and has listened to both sides of the issue). It's interesting how you would debate these issues with her but not with us. Perhaps you sense that you don't really know enough to debate.

My offer still stands. You have people with direct experience in greyhound racing right here on these boards. Instead of sighing and sniping at the thread, ask pointed questions of us. Seek explanations. What do you want to know or are you completely educated in greyhounds?

We are well aware that not everything is perfect in our sport. We are working very hard to get it where it needs to be. We are doing a much better job than any of you give us credit for.

Here is Rock's and my web site.
http://www.raceforadoption.com/

Our goal is to have 100 RFA dogs running at tracks across the country. The web site is very comprehensive and delves into a variety of aspects of greyhound raising, training, racing and retirement.

http://www.gra-america.org/ has a lot of useful information as well.

[guster girl]

Originally posted by jcsperson

Here is Rock's and my web site.
http://www.raceforadoption.com/



The site is really nice, and, easy to navigate. I'm actually going back to sleep right now, but, I will read more later. I read all of the "farm life" section, though. And, all the photos are gorgeous. I love your picture in the behind the scenes section! that's awesome that you're a schoolteacher!

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by guster girl
The site is really nice, and, easy to navigate. I'm actually going back to sleep right now, but, I will read more later. I read all of the "farm life" section, though. And, all the photos are gorgeous. I love your picture in the behind the scenes section! that's awesome that you're a schoolteacher!
I'm glad that you like it. I wish I could say that Rock and I had a large hand in creating the site itself, but it was the work of several contributors. Speaking for myself, I am not nearly computer savvy enough to pull off something like that. Rock and I contributed some of the content, but it was mostly the work of those nice folks listed on the "Behind The Scenes" page.

I'm also on the staff of http://www.greyhound-data.com/ We just surpassed the milestone of 1,000,000 dogs in the Db. It's the largest breed Db in the world.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by micki76
IMO, this belongs in the Dog House, not Dog General.

*sigh*

It's starting to look that way, eh?

Personally, I don't see what more has got to be said. You all gave your opinions and information, and now it's just turning into one big argument. I agree with the others who said "let the thread die". I haven't posted much on this thread, but I've been reading along with it ever since it started (same with the other one), and I'd really love if some of the greyhound people who have been continuing on about this would participate in other threads and share pictures, stories, etc. instead of just "hanging out" around here.

That said, I love greyhounds and hope to adopt one (or two) one day. :)

[guster girl]

I don't see how it's become ugly on this thread at all. It looks better than most of the arguments that ensue around here, but, that's just me. I don't see how everything's been said, either. On either side. For any debate, not just greyhounds. But, if the creator wants to delete this, that's fine. Or if Karen or Paul think it needs to be moved, that's cool, too. If you want it to die out, you can do like a lot of people are obviously doing, and, not post on the thread.

[guster girl]

Originally posted by jcsperson


I'm also on the staff of http://www.greyhound-data.com/ We just surpassed the milestone of 1,000,000 dogs in the Db. It's the largest breed Db in the world.

Wow, that's a lot of dogs! I went to the site for the adoptable puppies, oh man, I want one! What cute photos!

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by aly
None of the racing information has an impact on whether I would adopt a greyhound. I know and love the breed and my views on that haven't changed. I would adopt from a rescue or shelter, wherever I found the right one. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a retired racer.
If I can possibly be of assistance when that day comes let me know. I know a greyt number of people in both racing and adoption who can find just the dog for you.

You should be forewarned, however, that greyhounds are one of the most addicting substances on the face of the earth. Just one will make you a helpless addict with no known treatment or cure except for more greyhounds.

I hope you're up to it! :D

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by guster girl
Wow, that's a lot of dogs! Well, they go back to the 1700s!

[true]

Originally posted by lizbud
This list from the Greyhound Racing Association Of America.

FYI:



Organizations that Openly Oppose Greyhound Racing Financial


The following organizations openly oppose greyhound racing through the media-- and to the public:

GREY2KUSA

American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA)

Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PeTA)

Greyhound Protection League

Greyhound Network News

Greyhound Action International

Idaho Citizens Against Greyhound Entertainment

Pennsylvania Citizens Against Greyhound Racing

Kids For Greyhounds

Greyhoundracingsucks.com

American-European Greyhound Alliance

Greyhound Central


ADOPTION GROUPS

That openly oppose greyhound racing

Parent Organization Group Name Representative Location
Greyheart Greyhound Rescue and Adoption of Michigan Carol Jensen MI
Greyhound Adoption of Ohio Linda Perko OH
Greyhound Adoptions of Florida, Inc. Bob & Marilyn Varnberg FL
Greyhound Companions of New Mexico Judy Kody Paulsen NM
Greyhound Welfare Foundation Greyhound Friends for Life Sue Tomasello CA
GREYHOUND FRIENDS Greyhound Friends of North Carolina Randy Barrow NC
GREYHOUND FRIENDS Greyhound Friends, Inc. Louise Coleman MA
Greyhound Gang Claudia Presto UT
Greyhound Guardians Lee & Larry Lavery IN
Greyhound Rescue of Idaho Virginia McKean ID
Greyhounds New Beginnings Harold Daniel Laird MI
GreysLand Greyhound Adoption, Inc. Robin Norton MA
Hav-A-Heart Greyhound Rescue & Adoption Jo Ann Jones MI
Michigan Greyhound Connection Susan Bilsky MI
REGAP Michigan REGAP Lenka Perron MI
NGAP National Greyhound Adoption Program, Inc. David Wolf PA
Operation Greyhound Bruna Palmatier CA
USA Defenders of Greyhounds Inc. Nancy Wallace/Hudspeth IL
USA Defenders of Greyhounds, Inc. Linda Brewster GA
USA Defenders of Greyhounds, Inc. Sally Allen IN





ADOPTION GROUPS

That associate with individuals and groups that openly oppose greyhound racing

Parent Organization Group Name Representative Location
2nd Chance Greyhounds John Burt UT
Adopt a Greyhound Atlanta, Inc. Carl Veiner GA
Adopt-A-Greyhound Leslie Trout WI
Arizona Greyhound Rescue AZ
Canine Causes Cindy Hall CA
Dog Rescue Ireland Bernie Wright IRELAND
Dogworks Canine Rescue Penny Noel CA
Fast Dogs-Fast Friends Debi Woodman AZ
Fast Friends Donna Paine NH
First State Greyhound Rescue PA
Friends of Greyhounds, Inc. Michelle Weaver FL
Golden State Greyhound Adoption Barbara Homer CA
Grateful Greyhounds Lisa Sallie NY
GREAT FL
Greater Raleigh Greyhound Rescue Group Dana R Jones, DVM NC
Greyhound Acres Rescue & Adoption Marc & Shaun NY
Greyhound Adoption and Rescue Janice Ziola NV
Greyhound Adoption California Scott & Ann Sanders CA
Greyhound Adoption Center Kathy Johnson CA
Greyhound Adoption Center Dana Provost NV
Greyhound Awareness League David Melville SCOTLAND
Greyhound Rescue of Idaho Greyhound Connection Heather Weir CO
GREYHOUND FRIENDS Greyhound Friends of New Jersey Barbara Wicklund NJ
GPA Greyhound Pets of America Ellen Schneiderman WI
Greyhound Rescue & Rehabilitation NY
Greyhound Rescue Adoption Team (GReAT) NY
Greyhound Rescue And Adoption Bob Abramson KY
Greyhound Rescue of Austin Marnie Reeder TX
Greyhound Rescue of N.E., Inc. MA
Greyhound Welfare Kopal Barnouin Jha MD
Greyhounds & Love, Inc. Terry Howard SC
Greyhounds as Companions Pat Colitsas NY
Greyhounds Galore Jackie Brantley GA
Greyhounds Only, Inc. Linda La Foone IL
Halfpint Haven Borzoi and Greyhound Adoptions, Inc. Lisa Simpson FL
REGAP Illinois REGAP Ellen Stokal IL
REGAP Kansas City REGAP Bill & Cher Oliver MO
Long Island Greyhound Transfer Inc. (L.I.G.H.T.) Craig Barrett CT
Long Island Greyhound Transfer, Inc. Julie Ferrara NY
National Greyhound Foundation, Inc. Beverly Sebastian FL
New Beginnings Greyhound Adoption FL
New Jersey Greyhound Adoption Program, Inc. Jennifer Sigler NJ
New Mexico Greyhound Connection Candy & Jerry Beck NM
Northern California Greyhound Adoption Program Jean Rice CA
Racing Dog Rescue Project FL
REGAP REGAP of Connecticut Eileen McCaughern CT
REGAP REGAP of Illinois, Inc IL
Retired Racers, Inc. Linda Brown CA
Second Chance for Greyhounds Helen Banks FL
Shamrock Greyhound Placement Jennifer Watkins KY
REGAP St. Louis REGAP MO
We Adopt Greyhounds Ellie Goldstein CT

what an amazingly long list!

well without all those people, working their behinds off, many more dogs would be put down.

those groups work in the trenches, get dogs from teh tracks all the time, deal with industry people. they see the good and the bad. if all of those groups are still seeing enough bad things to continue to be anti-racing, there must be a reason for it.

if they had nothign but positive experiences with healthy dogs, they would have no reason to be anti racing. they see the good and the bad with their own eyes.

please dont let the proracing people here gloss over the negative aspects of the industry, its getting better but its not there yet. and just look at all of those non for prpoofit volunteer groups that have to come in and take care of the dogs after the industry doesnt need them anymore.

why is there not 100% adoption (far form it now) and 100% financial responsibility by the racing owners? its so very very very sad.

so three cheers for these groups, and all the groups out there, that work hard, often working other full time jobs and then running and volunteering for greyhound adoption, because they need to raise funds and do the work placing dogs that the industry isnt doing themselves.

btw this is a lovely community and im so sorry oyu ahve to deal with all of this.

[true]

also, thats about 70 groups right there that are AR or associated with AR groups.

if each group only placed 50 dogs per year (and many of them place WAY more than that) that is 3500 greyhounds they place each year.

just think if they didnt exist! all those poor dogs :(

[GreyhoundDaddy]

Originally posted by jcsperson
Some folks are "pre-adopting" dogs from breeders and get to follow the dog's career at the track. Many breeders remain in touch with the adopters of their dogs. [/B]

I'm a "pre-adopter"!!

Take a look at my "pre-adopted" greyhound's homepage:
Icee's Homepage (http://www.hometown.aol.com/greyhounddaddy/page10.html)

[Kfamr]

Ugh... did these threads HAVE to un-burried!!?!?!?:mad: :( :( :(

[true]

oh i am so sorry! someone forwarded me the link and i did not realize this was an old thread.

my apologies.

[Kfamr]

It's okay.
Just these threads have caused a lot of un-needed drama and grief for many on here.. A lot of us would just like to see everyone from GT to post in other threads and contribute to Pet Talk.. but with these threads popping up all the time, they tend to just stick around them. :(

[true]

Originally posted by Kfamr
It's okay.
Just these threads have caused a lot of un-needed drama and grief for many on here.. A lot of us would just like to see everyone from GT to post in other threads and contribute to Pet Talk.. but with these threads popping up all the time, they tend to just stick around them. :(

makes perfect sense :)

[LorraineO]

this whole thread needs to be in the dog house!!!!!

[K9soul]

I haven't said anything for a long time on these threads but I'm going to state my opinion on it now... I see nothing wrong if people want to keep discussing this as long as it's fairly civil and not nasty. I do think it should stay in threads specifically started to discuss it, I was saddened that Robyn's thread about Gibson turned into a debate thread on both sides.

When I lose interest in a thread, I just stop opening it. Obviously I opened this one again so apparently I still have some interest in what people are saying about it ;). I don't understand seeing a thread and opening it and responding just to say you don't want people to post to it anymore or that you don't want to see the thread anymore. And that isn't meant as an insult to anyone or aimed at anyone in particular, I've seen it happen a lot. I just honestly am puzzled by it. I can understand posting to a thread that wasn't meant to discuss it, but this thread and the other one, to me, seem meant to discuss it. I just feel we should let people discuss and talk about it if they like and if/when I get tired of it, I'll personally simply ignore the thread :)

*Edited to say: I would understand if Karen or Paul felt it should go to the Doghouse but that is their call, so far they seem to feel it's okay here. I personally don't mind but if a lot of people feel strongly that it should be moved, perhaps they should PM a request about it? I don't think it's fair to blame the people who want to post on it.

[LorraineO]

Well *I* am not blaming anyone for anything,, I didnt bother to read much of this thread,,, its not something I personally agree with or know a whole of,, but seeing what i did see,, I just thought it was sort of controvsial,,, thats why I suggest the dog house,,,, but hey,, I dont own the list,,,, youre right ,, if Karen or Paul feels it should go there,, it would have gone..... Mine was just a thought,, opnion humble as it is,,, :)

[CampWhippet]

....Bridgeport (Shoreline Star) and The Woodlands are still open these 8 years later. The bill pending in Massachusetts was defeated. The other states did not have greyhound racing to begin with.....
Martin Roper

1. Shoreline Star closed last month. (since this thread was started 4 tracks have closed and one has reduced its schedule to just seasonal)
2. The bill in Massachusetts (The Dog Protection Act) will pass this November
3. Delaware is about to ban greyhound racing to prevent anyone from attempting to start it there.

Jonathan

[Kfamr]

Dude, he/she just joined today.. take a chill.

I don't believe he realized that it was not even 2 years old.