Has Bush lost his reason?

[ramanth]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1329254,00.html

Has Bush lost his reason?

The President's apparent mental fragility should give US voters pause for thought at the ballot box

Andrew Stephen
Sunday October 17, 2004
The Observer

It will, we are confidently told, be the most important American election for generations. In the words last week of Dick Cheney, the voice of what passes for gravitas in the Bush Administration, Americans will have to make 'about as serious a decision as anybody is ever asked to make' when they go to the polls in 17 days' time.

The prophets of doom, whom Cheney exemplifies, are precisely right about the importance of this election. But the momentous decision awaiting Americans is not whether they return to power a President who is uniquely qualified to protect the US against terrorism, as Cheney et al would have us believe. It is whether they re-elect a man who, it is now clear, has become palpably unstable.

The evidence has been before our eyes for some time, but only during the course of this election campaign has it crystallised - just in time, possibly, for the 2 November election. The 43rd US President has always had a much-publicised knack for mangled syntax, but now George Bush often searches an agonisingly long time, sometimes in vain, for the right words. His mind simply blanks out at crucial times. He is prone, I am told, to foul-mouthed temper tantrums in the White House. His handlers now rarely allow him to speak an unscripted word in public.

Indeed, there are now several confusing faces to the US President, and we saw three of them in the live, televised Presidential debates with John Kerry that culminated last Wednesday night in Tempe, Arizona. In the first debate on 30 September, watched by more than 62 million viewers, we saw Bush at his most unattractive: slouching, peevish, pouting, pursing his lips with disdain at what his opponent was saying. But he was unable to marshal any coherent arguments against Kerry and merely spewed out prepared talking points - in what, even his ardent supporters concede, was Bush's worst-ever such performance.

In the second debate on 8 October in St Louis, Bush could not stay on his stool and leapt up to dispense what were - certainly in contrast to Kerry's cogent recital of statistics and arguments - frequently defensive, shouting rants. I assume that he was told by his handlers not to show displeasure at Kerry's words this time around, but, instead, he revealed his anger by blinking repeatedly.

The moderator tried to stop him talking at one point (both campaign organisations had agreed the order in which the candidates could speak, with time limits imposed on both), but Bush insisted on riding roughshod over the briefly protesting moderator, Charles Gibson. (What, I wonder, would have happened if Gibson had kept to the rules and insisted that Bush stop talking? We will never know.)

By the time of the third debate on 13 October, this one witnessed by more than 50 million people, Bush had adopted yet another baffling persona. This time, he was peculiarly flushed, leading a colleague to speculate whether he was on something. He had clearly been told to look positive - that was his main thrust of the evening, with frequent assertions that 'freedom is on the march' - and spent the evening with a creepy, inane grin on his face, as though he was red-faced after a festive Christmas dinner.

So what is up with the US President, and why is this election so crucial not only for America but for the world? I have been examining videos of his first 1994 debate with Ann Richards, the Governor of Texas, who he was about to supplant, and of his 2000 debates with Al Gore. In his one and only debate with Richards a decade ago, Bush was fluent and disciplined; with Gore, he had lost some of that polish but was still articulate, with frequent invocations of his supposed 'compassionate conservatism'.

It is thus hard to avoid the conclusion that Bush's cognitive functioning is not, for some reason, what it once was. I am not qualified to say why this is so. It would not be surprising if he was under enormous stress, particularly after the 9/11 atrocities in 2001, and I gather this could explain much, if not everything.

But I have heard wild speculation in Washington that he is suffering from a neurological disorder, or that the years of alcoholism might finally be taking their toll on his brain.

I think it unlikely that Bush was wearing a bug so that he could be fed lines in at least one of the debates, but it is indicative of how his capabilities are regarded these days that the suggestion that he needed advice is given credence, as well as passing mentions in the powerful Washington Post and New York Times .

It does not help that Bush now lives in a positively Nixonian cocoon. He does not read newspapers; he sees television only to watch football; he makes election speeches exclusively at ticket-only events, and his courtiers consciously avoid giving him bad news. When he met John Kerry for their first bout on the debating platform, it was almost a new experience for the President to hear the voice of dissent.

A senior Republican, experienced and wise in the ways of Washington, told me last Friday that he does not necessarily accept that Bush is unstable, but what is clear, he added, is that he is now manifestly unfit to be President.

This, too, is a view that is widely felt, but seldom articulated and then only in private, within the Republican as well as Democratic establishments in Washington. Either way, the choice voters make on Tuesday fortnight should be obvious: whether he is unstable or merely unfit to be President - and I would argue that they amount to much the same - he should speedily be turfed out of office.

But Bush and his handlers like Cheney are driven, if nothing else, by a primal and overriding need to win, to destroy enemies who are blocking their way (shades, again, of Nixon?). Thus the speeches Bush now reads to the Republican faithful at his campaign meetings reflect their intent to demonise and annihilate Kerry's character in the eyes of the electorate; policy statements made by Kerry are wilfully distorted and then endlessly repeated so that, in the end, the distortions gain a credence among the majority who do not follow such matters closely.

Whether the American electorate choose to see the mounting, disturbing evidence about their President or whether they rally to Cheney's obscenely manipulative appeals for their patriotic support is still up in the air.

Kerry is a poor candidate who has only recently woken to the need to fight. Bush manages to maintain a peculiarly American, ordinary bloke image - mystifyingly so, given that he is the privileged product of Andover, Yale and Harvard - that still contrasts well, in the eyes of many Americans, with Kerry's patrician manner.

The polls taken since Wednesday night's debate are infuriatingly contradictory, too. The only consoling thought is that soon we should know the result of that very serious decision the American people have to make on polling day. There are not many occasions when I agree with anything that Dick Cheney says, but this is one of the rare moments when I concur totally with those chilling words.

[aly]

Did Bush even have reason in the first place? :D :D

JUST KIDDING EVERYONE! Please don't be offended! Just a joke!

[lizzielou742]

Seriously, the blindness of some voters is scary. It's starting to feel cultish.

---


http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/html/new_9_29_04.html

Bush Supporters Misread Many of His Foreign Policy Positions

Kerry Supporters Largely Accurate

Swing Voters Also Misread Bush, But Not Kerry

As the nation prepares to watch the presidential candidates debate foreign policy issues, a new PIPA-Knowledge Networks poll finds that Americans who plan to vote for President Bush have many incorrect assumptions about his foreign policy positions. Kerry supporters, on the other hand, are largely accurate in their assessments. The uncommitted also tend to misperceive Bush’s positions, though to a smaller extent than Bush supporters, and to perceive Kerry’s positions correctly. Steven Kull, director of PIPA, comments: “What is striking is that even after nearly four years President Bush’s foreign policy positions are so widely misread, while Senator Kerry, who is relatively new to the public and reputed to be unclear about his positions, is read correctly.”

Majorities of Bush supporters incorrectly assumed that Bush favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements (84%), and the US being part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the International Criminal Court (66%), the treaty banning land mines (72%), and the Kyoto Treaty on global warming (51%). They were divided between those who knew that Bush favors building a new missile defense system now (44%) and those who incorrectly believe he wishes to do more research until its capabilities are proven (41%). However, majorities were correct that Bush favors increased defense spending (57%) and wants the US, not the UN, to take the stronger role in developing Iraq’s new government (70%).

Kerry supporters were much more accurate in assessing their candidate’s positions on all these issues. Majorities knew that Kerry favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements (90%); the US being part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (77%); the International Criminal Court (59%); the land mines treaty (79%); and the Kyoto Treaty on climate change (74%). They also knew that he favors continuing research on missile defense without deploying a system now (68%), and wants the UN, not the US, to take the stronger role in developing Iraq’s new government (80%). A plurality of 43% was correct that Kerry favors keeping defense spending the same, with 35% assuming he wants to cut it and 18% to expand it.

Many of the uncommitted (those who say they are not very sure which candidate they will vote for) also misread Bush’s position on most issues, though in most cases this was a plurality, not a majority. The uncommitted incorrectly believed that Bush favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements (69%), the US being part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (51%), the International Criminal Court (47% to 31%), the land mines treaty (50%), and the Kyoto treaty on global warming (45% to 37%). Only 35% knew that Bush favors building a new missile defense system now, while 36% incorrectly believed he wishes to do more research until its capabilities are proven, and 22% did not give an answer. Only 41% knew that Bush favors increased defense spending, while 49% incorrectly assumed he wants to keep it the same (29%) or cut it (20%). A plurality of 46% was correct that Bush wants the US, rather than the UN, to take the stronger role in developing Iraq’s new government (37% assumed the UN).

The uncommitted were much more accurate in assessing Kerry’s positions. Majorities knew that Kerry favors including labor and environmental standards in trade agreements (75%), and the US being part of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (60%), the land mines treaty (57%), and the Kyoto Treaty on global warming (54%), and wants the US, not the UN, to take the lead in developing Iraq’s new government (71%). Pluralities correctly assumed that Kerry favors US participation in the International Criminal Court (49 to 30%) and that he favors doing more research until its effectiveness is proven (46%), with 26% assuming he does not want to build a system at all). Thirty-nine percent correctly assumed that he wants to keep defense spending the same, but 36% assumed that he wants to cut it.

PIPA selected these questions from those asked in polls by the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations which dealt with issues on which the presidential candidates have taken clear and documented positions.

Two other issues, on which neither candidate’s position can be definitively established, were also explored. One was in regard to how the US should deal with the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Bush supporters were divided about whether Bush favored taking Israel’s side (43%) or taking neither side (45%), while the uncommitted leaned toward the view that Bush favored taking neither side (47%) more than taking Israel’s side (30%). Kerry voters mostly assumed that Kerry favored taking neither side (68%), as did swing voters (58%).

On the question of whether, as a general rule, the US should contribute troops to UN peacekeeping operations, Bush supporters assumed that Bush would favor doing so (78%) as did Kerry supporters (58%) and a majority of the uncommitted (60%). Kerry supporters (73%) also assume that he would favor contributing to peacekeeping as do a bare majority of the uncommitted (51%). However, a plurality of Bush supporters (48%) assumes that Kerry would prefer to leave the job to other countries.

The poll was conducted with a nationwide sample of 959 respondents over September 8-12. The margin of error was plus or minus 3.2-4.0%, depending on whether the question was administered to two-thirds or the entire sample. A report and the questionnaire can be found at www.pipa.org.

The poll was fielded by Knowledge Networks using its nationwide panel, which is randomly selected from the entire adult population and subsequently provided internet access. For more information about this methodology, go to www.knowledgenetworks.com/ganp.

Funding for this research was provided by the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.

[PJ's Mom]

Has Bush lost his reason?

This is a rhetorical question, I hope. :D

[lizbud]

George Bush is not, and never has been, a reasonable man.
He is a dogmatic, "my way or the highway" kind of person.

I do think the debates showed in a very dramatic way, how lost
he becomes when he doesn't have a "script" to read from or
Dick Cheney to answer questions for him. His performance at
the first debate was truly embarrassing for a sitting President.

[ParNone]

Maybe because things are such a mess now, I'm paying closer attention, but I don't remember Bush being so incompetent and incoherent, when he was Governor of Texas. It's apparent to me now though, that there's something really wrong with him and he won't be getting my vote this time around.

Par...

[PJ's Mom]

Originally posted by ParNone
Maybe because things are such a mess now, I'm paying closer attention, but I don't remember Bush being so incompetent and incoherent, when he was Governor of Texas.

He wasn't. He was an excellent Governor of Texas...one of the best we've had in a long time.

Unfortunately, people change.

[Logan]

Originally posted by PJ's Mom
He wasn't. He was an excellent Governor of Texas...one of the best we've had in a long time.

Unfortunately, people change.

Or maybe he is misunderstood??? :p

[christa]

...has always had a much-publicised knack for mangled syntax, but now George Bush often searches an agonisingly long time, sometimes in vain, for the right words. His mind simply blanks out at crucial times. He is prone, I am told, to foul-mouthed temper tantrums in the White House. His handlers now rarely allow him to speak an unscripted word in public.

Sooooo . . . I guess that as long as we have a proficient public speaker in the WhiteHouse, all will be well with the world. :rolleyes:


...we saw Bush at his most unattractive: slouching, peevish, pouting, pursing his lips with disdain at what his opponent was saying. But he was unable to marshal any coherent arguments against Kerry and merely spewed out prepared talking points - in what, even his ardent supporters concede, was Bush's worst-ever such performance.

I won't argue with that. ;) First debate was horrible on Bush's part.


In the second debate on 8 October in St Louis, Bush could not stay on his stool and leapt up to dispense what were - certainly in contrast to Kerry's cogent recital of statistics and arguments - frequently defensive, shouting rants. I assume that he was told by his handlers not to show displeasure at Kerry's words this time around, but, instead, he revealed his anger by blinking repeatedly.

Seriously, BLINKING REPEATEDLY??? LOLOLOLOL ARE YOU ALL READING THIS, SERIOUSLY?


The moderator tried to stop him talking at one point...

I recall J.Kerry being called down to shut up also . . . but that's fine, right?


. . . leading a colleague to speculate whether he was on something . . . and spent the evening with a creepy, inane grin on his face, as though he was red-faced after a festive Christmas dinner.

OMG . . . I don't know what to say to that.


. . . Bush's cognitive functioning is not, for some reason, what it once was. I am not qualified to say why this is so.

Ah haaaa! Sounds like an expert to me!


But I have heard wild speculation in Washington that he is suffering from a neurological disorder...

Pretty WILD if you ask me.


... whether he is unstable or merely unfit to be President - and I would argue that they amount to much the same - he should speedily be turfed out of office.

Sounds like a biased opinion to me! :rolleyes:

OK, after reading this article, I am appalled! I can't believe that you people actually read this article, smiled and nodded in agreement.

I don't think that Bush supporters are the ones that are acting "cultish". :rolleyes:

[guster girl]

Both sides have people that are cultish and blind to anything the person they're voting for does wrong. It's the same on both sides. It doesn't make people stupid for believing in someone, even if you don't believe in the same.

[christa]

I know . . . Just got a little upset when I started reading this thread.

I support Bush.

I know he's made mistakes.

I know he slouches.

I know he's not a great speaker.

I know that I'm voting based on my morals and beliefs, and that HE matches up best with my convictions.

But for Kerry supporters . . . Kerry does no wrong. Don't think I've ever heard a Kerry supporter on her admit to his wrong doings, and trust me, he has his downfalls just like everyone else.

:rolleyes:

Just my opinion of course.

[guster girl]

I just think stereotyping is evil, regardless of what's being discussed, whether it be pit bulls or voters. But, that's just my opinion.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by christa
I know . . . Just got a little upset when I started reading this thread.

I support Bush.

I know he's made mistakes.

I know he slouches.

I know he's not a great speaker.

I know that I'm voting based on my morals and beliefs, and that HE matches up best with my convictions.

But for Kerry supporters . . . Kerry does no wrong. Don't think I've ever heard a Kerry supporter on her admit to his wrong doings, and trust me, he has his downfalls just like everyone else.

:rolleyes:

Just my opinion of course.
I agree with you!

AND at least Bush never called Kerry "brain dead" like Kerry called him. I don't want a president who can't make up his mind and stick with a decision OR can't refrain from name calling! Kerry should go back to kindergarten.

Just my opinion also AND I'm stickin' to it!

[wolflady]

**hugs** christa and MOFF, I was really beginning to think that I was the only republican around here! :o I never usually post on political threads, but it seems like the theme is always the same. Republicans are always slammed, which is why I don't get involved in stuff like this. People on our radio stations out here are slamming republicans, people on TV (TV shows, news, just media in general puts negative slants on republicans)....it's like everyone! I was flipping through all of our local radio stations (both FM and AM) and not one of them had any republican support. Seems like I am slammed in the face with democratic support all the time.

I agree, I don't think he's perfect, but who is? Personally, when it comes to politics...it just boils down to who is the lesser of two evils! :p

I agree with guster girl, it is the same on both sides, whatever party you belong to.

I always think how ironic it is that we (the general public and the government...etc) want to help other countries and want world peace, but for some reason can't get along with our oun country men... :confused:

[guster girl]

Here are just a couple quotes from a couple of Kerry supporters that posted in the dog house. If you wanna know who said them, just go back and read the presidential debates thread. I'm not even sure yet who I'm voting for, so, I'm not a supporter, yet, of either candidate. I just think all the crap that gets thrown back and forth between Bush supporters and Kerry supporters could be done without anyone calling anyone else names or accusing anyone of being cultish or whatever. It's the main reason I avoid political discussions. But, I'm just trying to prove a point here in that you can't say that all Kerry supporters think that Kerry can do no wrong. And, I don't have time to look up more, but, I know that I've read more of these types of things being said about Kerry from Kerry supporters.

"That being said, I know its a package deal. There ARE things I definitely disagree with Kerry on...."

"I'm sure a lot of stuff is coming out of Kerry's mouth that is just psycho babble to win him the election too."

[Miranda_Rae]

I usually stay out of Political threads and stay away from these topic simply because they can get kind of heated and people get get easily upset and angered, and sometimes then they start saying nasty things to each other, BUT I simply wanted to state what i think, without trying to bring anyone down, or start an arguement. :)

First off, if I could vote this year I would be voting for Bush.

One of the reasons that i would be voting for Bush would be because he backs what I believe, and that is VERY important to me. I agree with a lot of his policies and ideas....oh sure there are things that I don't agree with but for the most part I like him and I would vote for him. :) And yes, he is not perfect, he is just like every other human being. :)

I am not trying to bash any Democrats or Kerry, just simply stating what I think. :)

[christa]

Originally posted by wolflady
**hugs** christa and MOFF, I was really beginning to think that I was the only republican around here!

Thanks wolflady . . . I needed that :)

No, you're not the only sane person on here, LOL (here comes the bashing) . . . I've tried to stay away from these boards in the past, but finally I'm fed up with the slams and lies that liberals are spreading . . . I decided to start speaking my mind too!

When I saw this thread . . . I was like, OMG, everyone on this board is buying into this!!! Guess I was wrong . . . glad to hear that I'm not the only one that thinks this article is ridiculous.

Hang in there, wolflady! ;)

OK guster girl, you caught me! LOL Wow, two quotes . . .

I take it all back! :rolleyes:

[aly]

Originally posted by christa
Thanks wolflady . . . I needed that :)

No, you're not the only sane person on here, LOL (here comes the bashing) . . . I've tried to stay away from these boards in the past, but finally I'm fed up with the slams and lies that liberals are spreading . . . I decided to start speaking my mind too!

When I saw this thread . . . I was like, OMG, everyone on this board is buying into this!!! Guess I was wrong . . . glad to hear that I'm not the only one that thinks this article is ridiculous.

Hang in there, wolflady! ;)

OK guster girl, you caught me! LOL Wow, two quotes . . .

I take it all back! :rolleyes:

Yikes :eek: First of all, that is a bit harsh to Kari who has remained completely neutral and was only trying to be helpful. She did state that she didn't have time to search for more so she only cited two. I don't think you need to jump down her throat.

I've made it perfectly clear all along, as have many others, that Kerry is not some perfect saint of a man. He has his flaws just as Bush does. I, and several others, stated that we did in fact vote for Bush in 2000, but now believe it is time for a change. We are voting with our morals and convictions just as you are. Why does that make us wrong and make you right?

I've heard many Bush supporters taking low jabs at Kerry's appearance just as the Kerry supporters take low blows at Bush's mannerisms. I try to stay out of that whole thing and stick to their policies and beliefs.

You just seem like you remember what you want to and twist things around a bit.

I don't mean to start an argument or anything. But you've been doing this in all of the political threads and I've been ignoring it because I HATE confrontation. But some of the things you're saying are simply NOT true :o

And no, we are not insane because we support Kerry. I, for one, took this article with a grain of salt. I do agree with a lot of it, but I formed my own opinions about that stuff a long time ago.

[lizzielou742]

Originally posted by aly
Yikes :eek: First of all, that is a bit harsh to Kari who has remained completely neutral and was only trying to be helpful. She did state that she didn't have time to search for more so she only cited two. I don't think you need to jump down her throat.

Right on, Aly!!!!!!! :D


Originally posted by aly
We are voting with our morals and convictions just as you are. Why does that make us wrong and make you right?

But, wait, don't you know - a Bush supporter's morals (aka born-again Christian morals) are the only RIGHT morals out there? :rolleyes: ;)

Someone asked me the other day how I could vote for a baby-killer. I asked that person how they could vote for an adult-killer. That shut them right up.

:D

[aly]

Originally posted by lizzielou742


Someone asked me the other day how I could vote for a baby-killer. I asked that person how they could vote for an adult-killer. That shut them right up.


That is so sad but TRUE!

[K9soul]

I'm a Kerry supporter, although to be honest I wish there were more choices for candidates overall. My reasoning for my vote is my own and I don't care to get into that here, but I am far from the belief that either candidate is perfect in every way. There are things I relate to with both of them. It really saddens me to see people go at each other's throats so much and bash each other, implying the other side is naive or brainwashed or uneducated and so on. The truth is everyone perceives things in a different way, some are similar but everyone perceives things at least a bit differently somewhere along the line. I accept and respect that others have different viewpoints, and I have no less respect for a Bush supporter than I do for a fellow Kerry supporter, they just see and feel some things differently than I do.

I pretty much completely ignore the bashing statements from both sides against the other, all the mud slinging is for the purpose of belittling the other candidate, often personally, and I think it's dirty and cruel but that is how it is unfortunately.

As for this article, I take it with a grain of salt the same way I do the rest of them, from either side. Sure there is a possibility he could be suffering some early dementia, but just as much a chance he is simply stressed out. How well can I think of what I want to say when I'm really exhausted and stressed? Not very darn well I can tell you. I do think Bush is under more stress than Kerry, after all he has people accusing him of murder, questioning his presidential decisions, stating that Cheney is the real president, and so on. Every president I have seen seems to age a remarkable amount while they are in office, I can't even imagine the stress level of a such a job.

So please don't lump all Kerry supporters, or all Bush supporters, into categories of mindless zealots. There are many of us that are not strictly left or right wing, I think we just don't comment as often. I think we should be able to state our beliefs without being judgmental towards those who believe differently, but the problem is once one person feels offended, they react defensively, and then they in turn might offend, and it perpetuates into a cycle.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by wolflady
**hugs** christa and MOFF, I was really beginning to think that I was the only republican around here! :o

I agree, I don't think he's perfect, but who is? Personally, when it comes to politics...it just boils down to who is the lesser of two evils! :p

I agree with guster girl, it is the same on both sides, whatever party you belong to.

I always think how ironic it is that we (the general public and the government...etc) want to help other countries and want world peace, but for some reason can't get along with our oun country men... :confused: Thanks for the hug but I'm not a Republican. ;) I'm an Independent! I didn't like either party enough to pick one of them. I try to vote for the lesser of the two evils! I voted Democratic last election but am switching this time!

If ever a canidate runs who has honor and just sticks to the issues and what they would do to help the country and not indulge in all this name calling and finger pointing, I'd vote for them so fast their head would swim! AH, we can but dream!!!:D

[CathyBogart]

Meh....even as a rabid democrat, I have to say....

I think Bush is probably frayed by all the things going on and the fact that it's so close to election day and the polls are still so middle of the road as to who is going to win. Usually it's pretty clear. I do not think he is not mentally sound, I think he's just under a load of pressure.

Has anyone here ever heard Bill Gates speak? It's like listening to an enthusiastic toddler. Half the things that come out of his mouth begin with "Swell!" or "Super!" and a lot of what he says makes little sense. However....is there any doubt here that he is a brilliant man? I hope not.

Christa: I don't even know you and I've already lost any iota of respect I might have had for you thanks to your nasty tone towards Kari and your nasty comment about democrats. Most of us can do a pretty good job keeping these discussions civil, then someone like you comes in and posts something nasty and it all goes downhill.

I am voting for Kerry, but not because of any mental fragility on our current president's part, simply because of my own beliefs and feelings. (And several weeks of research) :)

[moosmom]

Personally, I think Bush is VERY nervous about THIS election. Why? Because everyone is paying ALOT closer attention to not only the subjects debated, but you DO remember the last election fiasco 4 years ago.

So, I think now he's really beginning to crumble under all the pressure. Bush has met his match in Kerry.

And Kerry will have MY vote.

[christa]

OK, OK . . . FIRST of all . . .

I'm sorry for hurting everyone's FEELINGS.

Something I've noticed . . . certain people can bash Bush with the best of them, but when I bash Kerry, you'd think I committed a criminal offense!

Wolfchan: Sorry you feel that way about me. I was being sarcastic with guster girl . . . chill out!

Aly: Jumping down guster girl's throat? LOL Those weren't my intentions . . . I think you're seeing what you want to see.

As for everyone else, I am only taking this tone because I am sick of struggling to defend my position. The DogHouse is largely liberal and I feel that I'm constantly being attacked.

So until November 2, I am limiting myself to these political discussions. I don't want to be one of those people that pull the boards "downhill"

[guster girl]

Even if I had only quoted ONE person saying that they knew Kerry wasn't perfect, that would be enough to prove the statement false. I was simply saying that when Kerry supporters lump all Bush supporters into one category, it's wrong. when Bush supporters lump all Kerry supporters into one category, it's wrong. And, honestly, I think everyone sees what they want to see, especially around election time. I've read almost all of the threads related to politics, and, whether or not people want to admit it, everyone is picking on eachother. It's not that Kerry supporters don't get bashed for speaking out against Bush, because they do. Just read the threads, everyone's saying hateful things to eachother. I have always avoided politics because of the ugliness it brings out in people. I am 28 and have never voted. I was really hoping that this site could give me some insight on who to vote for. But, what it's really boiling down to in here is not even Bush against Kerry, it's Bush supporters against Kerry supporters. I still think they both suck, and, I probably will end up not voting again this year. Maybe next year. I am backing out of these threads entirely, though.

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by guster girl
I've read almost all of the threads related to politics, and, whether or not people want to admit it, everyone is picking on eachother. It's not that Kerry supporters don't get bashed for speaking out against Bush, because they do. Just read the threads, everyone's saying hateful things to eachother. I have always avoided politics because of the ugliness it brings out in people...... I am backing out of these threads entirely, though.

I agree that everyone is saying hateful things and thats why i stay out of these threads, but I simply wanted to state what I thought and that was all. I tried to do it in a non-judgemental way or non-confrontational way so as not to anger/annoy/upset anyone. I agree, I am backing out too! :rolleyes:

[snappy]

Guster Girl - don't let what any of the politicals say keep you out of the voting booth! This is one thing I am a stickeler on - get out and VOTE! I have who I want to vote for - and I am keeping it to myself because that is my right. But people have died for your right to vote - so don't let those who came before you live in vain!

Please - if it gets to you here - don't read these darn things!

[guster girl]

Originally posted by snappy
Guster Girl - don't let what any of the politicals say keep you out of the voting booth! This is one thing I am a stickeler on - get out and VOTE! I have who I want to vote for - and I am keeping it to myself because that is my right. But people have died for your right to vote - so don't let those who came before you live in vain!

Please - if it gets to you here - don't read these darn things!

It's not that it's getting to me, don't sweat it. I've not lost any sleep over anything said in this chat forum since the day I joined. I thought I could learn a little by reading the threads and I was wrong, I've chalked it up as a lesson learned. And, yes, I do realize that people fought for my right to vote. But, as much as you are a stickeler for voting....I'm a stickeler for not voting if you don't know the first thing about the candidates. And, as for me, I don't, yet. I'd rather only the educated people vote. (and, I mean educated about the candidates and current events) I know MANY people that don't have a freakin' clue, that are actually going to cast a vote based on which candidate has better hair or a nicer suit, just so they can say they voted. Those people scare me way more than the people who don't vote at all. And, if I can continue to research the two candidates and become confident in one of them, I'll vote. If I had to choose right now, I wouldn't be able to.

[aly]

Originally posted by Miranda_Rae
I agree that everyone is saying hateful things and thats why i stay out of these threads, but I simply wanted to state what I thought and that was all. I tried to do it in a non-judgemental way or non-confrontational way so as not to anger/annoy/upset anyone. I agree, I am backing out too! :rolleyes:

You did do it in a VERY non-judgemental way! I don't think anyone could be offended by your post. I hope that you won't back out entirely, but I understand why you want to :)

[carole]

Guster Girl I hope you do change your mind and vote, Emmeline pankhurst worked hard to obtain the right for us women to vote, be a shame that you don't ever use it.

I can well understand one not wanting to vote, we had local council elections and it was very hard to choose, even though you have a phamplet about them, one really does not know them

I know nothing about american politics, so I am staying well out of this debate, I hope the thread can turn around and continue to be a healthy debate though, I am slowly learning a bit more about your candidates, although I do find it all a bit confusing:confused: .

[guster girl]

Originally posted by carole
Guster Girl I hope you do change your mind and vote, Emmeline pankhurst worked hard to obtain the right for us women to vote, be a shame that you don't ever use it.

I can well understand one not wanting to vote, we had local council elections and it was very hard to choose, even though you have a phamplet about them, one really does not know them



I'd like to change my mind, and, I'm making a conscious effort to learn about these two men. It IS a shame that I have never voted. I'm not saying I'm proud to be unsure. But, I'm not voting for anyone until I'm comfortable doing so. It would be like me voting in a local town that I've never lived in and, I'm just not ok with that. But, I also don't question other people's choices, as long as they're educated choices. I have never complained about the president, either. Until I have placed a vote, I try to just listen. :)

[micki76]

I have to agree with Kari. For me there's no one worthy of my vote. Neither candidate has interested me enough to vote for them. I voted Bush 4 years ago, but can't quite get myself to do that again, but then the only other choice is Kerry. For me, that's not much of a choice at all. No one's getting my vote this year. :(

I refuse to settle for the lesser of two evils. I'll just take whatever everyone else votes in office, cause neither one will make me happy or satisfied.

[guster girl]

Originally posted by aly
She did state that she didn't have time to search for more so she only cited two.

Hey, thanks, Aly! It's all good, though! :) I'm mostly hoping you'll read this cuz your pm box is full, and, I wanted to see if you'd seen the photos I'd posted in dog general. I posted three different threads of photos of finn! SOrry if this is hijacking this thread, just trying to get ahold of aly! :)

[Miranda_Rae]

Originally posted by aly
You did do it in a VERY non-judgemental way! I don't think anyone could be offended by your post. I hope that you won't back out entirely, but I understand why you want to :)

Thank you! I check in once in awhile to see what other people are saying, but I still try to stay out of it....if people start to get catty with each other, I am SO out! :rolleyes:

[snappy]

Originally posted by guster girl
It's not that it's getting to me, don't sweat it. I've not lost any sleep over anything said in this chat forum since the day I joined. I thought I could learn a little by reading the threads and I was wrong, I've chalked it up as a lesson learned. And, yes, I do realize that people fought for my right to vote. But, as much as you are a stickeler for voting....I'm a stickeler for not voting if you don't know the first thing about the candidates. And, as for me, I don't, yet. I'd rather only the educated people vote. (and, I mean educated about the candidates and current events) I know MANY people that don't have a freakin' clue, that are actually going to cast a vote based on which candidate has better hair or a nicer suit, just so they can say they voted. Those people scare me way more than the people who don't vote at all. And, if I can continue to research the two candidates and become confident in one of them, I'll vote. If I had to choose right now, I wouldn't be able to.

A local tv station has a q and e area that might help you learn something about yourself and who your views of the world line up with - it is at www.10tv.com and the link is called 'candidate match'. You don't have to sign on - or leave any prints that you were there - but I found it very interesting....

just a thought...:D

And BTW - I fully agree with you - those who don't know what or who they are voting for or against should NOT vote. Guess I am a stickler for learning all you can and making your own mind up.....go figure. Good luck in your search. There are folks on each side of the fence that are feel so strongly for thier candidate they become fanatical. I appreciate that - we all have things we feel that strongly about so I try to give them all slack! ;)

[guster girl]

Originally posted by snappy
A local tv station has a q and e area that might help you learn something about yourself and who your views of the world line up with - it is at www.10tv.com and the link is called 'candidate match'. You don't have to sign on - or leave any prints that you were there - but I found it very interesting....

just a thought...:D

And BTW - I fully agree with you - those who don't know what or who they are voting for or against should NOT vote. Guess I am a stickler for learning all you can and making your own mind up.....go figure. Good luck in your search. There are folks on each side of the fence that are feel so strongly for thier candidate they become fanatical. I appreciate that - we all have things we feel that strongly about so I try to give them all slack! ;)

I will check that link out, thank you for posting it. I've been reading so much and it just seems to get blurrier. :( But, I'm not giving up. I still hope to have a clue by the time I have to make a choice. I'm all for learning all you can, that's what I'm trying to do. If I do decide on one person, I'll probably keep it to myself, but, I'll for sure post on here if I vote. :)

[Logan]

I've been reading so much and it just seems to get blurrier.

Isn't that the truth? Not so much in the presidential election for me, but in the local races! Yikes!! It is confusing and its hard to know what to believe!

[moosmom]

Christa,

No hard feelings, believe me. Politics is a very touchy subject which EVERYONE has a difference of opinion. We always agree to disagree here.

I plan on doing my part by voting and let the chips fall where they may.

One thing though...those ANNOYING commercials are really getting on my last nerve!!! :p :p

I'm Donna and I approve this post! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[davidpizzica]

Originally posted by moosmom
Christa,

No hard feelings, believe me. Politics is a very touchy subject which EVERYONE has a difference of opinion. We always agree to disagree here.

I plan on doing my part by voting and let the chips fall where they may.

One thing though...those ANNOYING commercials are really getting on my last nerve!!! :p :p

I'm Donna and I approve this post! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I'm waiting for Nov. 3rd to be here when those commercials (from BOTH sides) to be over. I"m david p and I approve of Donna and this post!

[davidpizzica]

Originally posted by carole
Guster Girl I hope you do change your mind and vote, Emmeline pankhurst worked hard to obtain the right for us women to vote, be a shame that you don't ever use it.

I can well understand one not wanting to vote, we had local council elections and it was very hard to choose, even though you have a phamplet about them, one really does not know them

I know nothing about american politics, so I am staying well out of this debate, I hope the thread can turn around and continue to be a healthy debate though, I am slowly learning a bit more about your candidates, although I do find it all a bit confusing:confused: . Carole, I'm an american and even I find it very confusing! You are not the only one.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Originally posted by moosmom

One thing though...those ANNOYING commercials are really getting on my last nerve!!! :p :p
I'll drink to THAT! And I don't even drink!:D

[carole]

Even though I know little about either candidate, and my opinion does not matter very much, I have to say I would vote for Mr Kerry, why you ask? and I hope most of you do because, he is going to give the go ahead on stem cell research, whereas Mr Bush is not.

This could and would affect my whole family's life, so I can only support this 100 percent, I know this is a controversial subject and I don't wish to change the subject of this thread, but even though I thought it does not matter that much to me who gets in, (being a kiwi,) but in actual fact it could have a big impact on my future and that of my family.

SO GO MR KERRY!!

P.S I have accidentally started another thread on this oops,but if you care to talk about it in more depth you can always go there.

[Pam]

I had told myself I would stay out of the Dog House after dealing with the negativism in the thread about the Presidential Debates. I accidentally clicked on a thread earlier today by Carole that had a subject title which I thought was not political but it was and unfortunately it prompted me to reply. Since I have broken my own vow about staying out of the Dog House I decided to visit this thread.

All that I can say is that I have never seen such expressed hatred in a political election year and I am 57 years old and have lived through and voted in many elections. If you would care to take note of who is starting these threads it is all Kerry supporters. Don't you think that those of us who support President Bush could furnish you with some articles as well? I know I certainly could! I think political chatting has gone to a completely lower level than just discussion. I do hope that once this election is over things settle down because Pet Talk has become a very nasty place. :mad:

[guster girl]

I'm as neutral as they come, and, I'm getting crap from both sides. It does seem that the Kerry supporters in here are more vocal about their hatred. But, away from the computer, I've had hatred thrown at me from all sides. It's unbelievable, and, just makes me feel sad that people have room for that kind of hatred in their hearts. I don't hate Bush or Kerry, or any human being for that matter. There are people that I don't like, but, hate is just evil to me. Only bad things stem from that. And, I have had so many Bush supporters that just are so full of hate, the same as I've had Kerry supporters that are the same way. It all sucks.

[dukedogsmom]

You're not hearing hate with me, or should I say "reading?" It's more like digust with the way things are now.

[guster girl]

I'm not pointing anyone out, so, no worries. :)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
George Bush is not, and never has been, a reasonable man.
He is a dogmatic, "my way or the highway" kind of person.



Which makes sense......

I sure would hate to be 'on the bus' with a driver who keeps saying, "My way or we could drive down this road-or maybe let's just drive the side streets.......Oh, those side streets look packed, let's get back on the freeway........whoa, the freeway is packed......let's just turn around and go home....."

Progress-Such a concept!;)