Poor Max?

[stacwase]

I don't know if I should feel sorry for Max or be happy for him. Ever since we started spending so much time on the farm, he's flat out exhausted. When we come home after a day or two there, he just crawls into his crate and doesn't move.

Yesterday was a VERY exhausting day for him. He protected the house from chipmunks and just ran around all day. He runs until he's so out of breath that he can't run anymore, then he lays down and catches his breath and does it again.

He never leaves the property, so I took him and the chis for a walk off leash. He chased a baby deer. He got shocked by an electric fence. And somehow (don't know when this possibly could have happened because he was only out of my sight for like 30 seconds at a time) he got skunked, or rolled in a skunk, or something.

I was actually really worried about the electric fence. He got shocked while he was jumping over it, so then he was inside the field and I was worried he'd get shocked again coming out. I found a place where he could easily get out and started calling him, but he was busy running around with his tongue lolling out and his mouth watering like I've never seen it water before. He was acting like a maniac. Finally he came through the opening and walked home with me, drooling massively the entire time. When we got back he drank 3 big bowls of water, stopping only long enough for me to refill the bowl.

He's OK now - but does anybody know anything about those fences? How bad do they shock? Are they dangerous? I'm thinking I should call the farmer and ask him to turn it off when we go for our walks.

[pitc9]

I don't know about electric fences, but I'm sure they have different settings they can be set to. I'll call and at least as him what it's turned up to!

Sure sounds like Max has a good time!!!
Except for the fence thing....

[Cinder & Smoke]

Originally posted by stacwase

... the electric fence.
He got shocked while he was jumping over it...

How bad do they shock? Are they dangerous?

I'm thinking I should call the farmer and ask him
to turn it off when we go for our walks.

They give a pretty sharp JOLT! :eek:

Back in the "Ole Daze" when I helped care for the Horses...
I'd *OFTEN* forget the Electric Fence was *ON* :mad: and
bump into or lean over it = :eek: *OUWCHIE*!
DANG - That HURTZ! :mad:

As for the Farmer "turning it off" when you walk...
Kinda *doubt* he'd be willing to do that...

Most every type of Critter that is confined by an Electric Fence -
Horses, Cows, Sheep, Goats, Pigs, etc -
learns to Sense when the Fence is ON/Working or OFF/Broken...
Turn if "OFF" - even for a few minutes - and the Critters KNOW
it's Off and start Leaning Into or Reaching Over it!

The Horses were especially "adept" at "testing" the Fences with
their whiskers... Put em into a different pasture;
and the Boss Hoss of the herd would immediately go
up to the Electric Strand and "test" it!

But the Dogs ALSO quickly learn to respect an Electric Fence!
They all get :eek: *ZAPPED* once or twice -
but then learn to "jump" it with caution and that it's *IMPORTANT*
to hold yur TAIL - straight out and to make a "clean jump"! ;)

Max will quickly lean to "test" and jump with caution!
Best to just "Teach him" NOT to cross a farmer's fence -
MOST Farmers do not take kindly :mad: to Dogs "running" their Livestock!

/s/ Phred .

[Kfamr]

Or to just keep them on leashes. ;)

[stacwase]

Originally posted by Kfamr
Or to just keep them on leashes. ;)

Oh - I know. But he's just so happy when he's running.

What's it called when we attribute human feelings to animals? Altruism or something like that? Anyway - I know that's probably what I'm doing but I ask myself "Would I rather be safe and imprisoned, or at a higher risk and free?" I know that I'd rather risk injury or even death than to give up my freedom, and I feel extremely guilty when I take that away from Max.

I have this argument over and over with myself, in my mind. I say "Well - we keep our children confined, and dogs don't have any more sense than children sometimes." But then I answer myself "Children do grow up and get their freedom. Max is an adult."

So - I've reached a compromise. I let him off leash when I'm supervising him. He can still get into trouble that way, but at least I'm there to help.

Max was a HUGE part of why we bought the farm. We wanted him to be safer. Even here in town, he has busted out screens getting out to run. He loves running more than anything in the world - even more than food!

I'm not being irresponsible, honestly. I pray that he will be with us for a long time, but if not I want every moment of his life to be as happy as possible.

[dukedogsmom]

I don't think I could have that attitude. I know Duke's happy as long as he's with me and I also know he's safe 100% of the time he's with me. Sure, he'd be a lot happier out and about in the neighborhood, chasing cars or whatever. I also think dogs are like kids because they never grow up. So, it's up to us to look after them. I think I would keep him on leash and just fence in a large part of a yard for him to have.

[Tonya]

The guy behind my dad's house has electric fences. If it doesn't injure the baby goats, my son, and even myself the few times I've forgotten, I think it is fairly safe. Also, Max will learn not to touch it. It won't take long. Dusty went under the electric fence once to chase the sheep, and he never did it again. I know that they turn the juice up for larger livestock, but it is never high enough to be dangerous or fatal. Max's reaction was probably more from surprise then an actual injury.

I guess I have different feelings then some of the people at PT about dogs running off leash. I was born and raised in an agricultural city, so it's only natural to see dogs loose in the country. I think it is a beautiful thing to see a dog happily running free, even if there are a few dangers.

Of course you have to use your judgement. When I'm out at my dad's, I let Dusty run free if I just have him because he has common sense. He avoids roads, he doesn't go near the canal, he doesn't stray further then the neighbor's ranch, he gets along with all the other farmer's dogs. But Roxy, on the other hand, if I have her out there, she doesn't get to run offleash. I know she'd get herself hurt.

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by stacwase
Oh - I know. But he's just so happy when he's running.

So is Nala. So is Simba. So is Kiara.

BUT -- Safety is important. You have no clue how that farmer could have reacted. He could have been watching him the whole time ready with a shot gun. Or, what animals Max could have run into.

My dogs would LOOOVEEE to run free 24/7, but it's just NOT safe, not even for the most well trained dogs... It's not safe for you either! I'm not sure if you read that one story about the guy who was walking the dogs, and the dogs ran up ahead of him. Some guy was ahead of them with a gun. He didn't shoot the dogs, but he shot the guy that the dogs were with.



I'm not trying to say this against you, but personally I believe anyone who walks their dogs unleashed is irresponsible. I know you want what's best for Max, but what's best is his safety. I'm sure he'd be just as happy to go on a walk while leashed. Maybe you can buy a long lead, that way he'd have his freedom, but he'd still be under your control and safe from going on someone else's property. IMO, that's the best compromise.

[stacwase]

I think that the difference in attitudes comes from the facts that life in more urban areas is sooooo terribly dangerous for dogs. If I lived in an area where there were cars driving by all the time, and garbage for the dogs to get into and get sick from, etc. etc. I would never even consider a walk offleash. In fact, we still have our house in town and I won't even open the windows more than about 6 inches because I'm afraid he'll bust a screen and get out.

I can most definitely understand the care that people living in more urban areas must take to keep their dogs safe. There's not a risk that a dog will be hurt offleash in those areas - there's a guarantee!

And there are definitely dogs who should never be off leash, even in the country. My stepdaughter's dog, Kamble, is a good example. When Kamble's around I won't let Max off leash because Kamble would run in the road or something and Max would run right after him.

I think each dog and each situation is different.

[chocolatepuppy]

----qoute by stacwase------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have this argument over and over with myself, in my mind. I say "Well - we keep our children confined, and dogs don't have any more sense than children sometimes." But then I answer myself "Children do grow up and get their freedom. Max is an adult.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To me my furkids will always be children, they don't really grow up like people, and I feel they need my protection.I'll never believe my pups are unhappy because they don't run loose. There are a lot of bad things that happen to dogs in the country as well as in town. A girl I talked to on another board (who lived in the country)let her two dogs run loose, and one got poisioned. It died by the time it got to the vet. I would hate to see anything happen to Max!

[Tonya]

Yes, stacwase, that is exactly what I am trying to say. The attitude here in Modesto, is quite different then say San Fransisco or some other big city. You see dogs running along side tractors all the time, or riding in the back of trucks unrestrained. And most of these dogs live long happy lives. It's another ball park, with city dangers or the dangers of places that have dangerous wild animals.

[Kfamr]

Sorry to respond yet again but, even if I was living in the country i'd never let my dogs off leash.

There are many dangers in the country, if not more then there are in the urban areas. Such as, electric fencing, farmers, other animals. And, what if he had caught that baby deer and injured it? It's just really not safe for you, Max, or any other animals. I'm not saying this to pester you i'm saying it just because it's honestly what I believe.


I'd totally trust my dogs off leash, but I would not trust their natural instincts to explore and hunt, and definitely would not trust the people around me .. no matter WHERE we are.

[Tonya]

*But I have to add that the dogs cannot be total city slickers and then be expected to survive out in the country. I really think that dogs that are born and raised out on farms are much more aware of their surroundings...For instance, my dad's neighbor's dogs wouldn't dart into the street to chase a rabbit. They see rabbits (and chase them) everyday, so they're more aware of where they're running. Roxy on the other hand, she'd only be thinking about the rabbit, not where she is running. Also, I cannot say this for your area, but I know that a dog getting shot wouldn't happen in my area. Everyone knows everyone and who's dog is who's.

[Uabassoon]

I agree that if you are out in the country it's a lot different than letting your dog of leash in a city. If you have a dog that will come when called then the dangers are greatly lowered as long as they are supervised. There are pretty much no cars due to the fact that everyone owns several acres of land. I won't mention names but I know a certain person here that always posts pictures of her dogs running loose and no one ever says anything. But if you notice in her pictures you never see any cars or anything that could pose a possible danger to her dogs. But it also depends on the dog, if the dog is going to run far out of the owners view then I wouldn't do it. But if it's a dog that will stay close by then I don't see the problem.

[molucass]

One of my friends has the same mind set as a few of you guys.. "Ohh we live out in the country, nothing is going to happen."

Well, lots did happen...
Her brothers pit/boxer mix got poisoned, her pit bull got poisoned, another pit bull was trying to come out to her car to greet her when she was turning in the driveway and some idiot went around her (they went in to the oncoming traffic lane to get away from her because she was slowing down to turn that direction), and the person hit and killed her dog. I'm sure there are others, I just can't remember right now.

Her step dad usually would let her dogs out while she was at work, them all thinking nothing bad would happen, but as you can see, that was definately not the right assumption.

I just don't think its right for anyone to just let their dogs run around off leash because there is too many what if's, no matter where you live..

Just my .02.

[Uabassoon]

Her step dad usually would let her dogs out while she was at work, them all thinking nothing bad would happen, but as you can see, that was definately not the right assumption.

It sounds like he would leave the dogs unsupervised. That's sad :( I don't understand why people would ever leave their dogs unleashed without supervision. That just asking for trouble.




He never leaves the property, so I took him and the chis for a walk off leash. He chased a baby deer. He got shocked by an electric fence. And somehow (don't know when this possibly could have happened because he was only out of my sight for like 30 seconds at a time) he got skunked, or rolled in a skunk, or something.

Since it sounds like you have a lot of land why don't you leash him when you go for walks so that he can't get into trouble. From your post it sounds like he has plenty of room to run and get tired while he's on your property.

[stacwase]

I don't want this thread to get heated. I truly appreciate everybody on this forum. I think we are all unusually opinionated. Maybe that is a trait of animal lovers.

I don't want to get into a debate because, although we disagree on this particular issue, we are in agreement regarding so many other issues. We all love our animals and have a lot in common.

We should all just agree to disagree, don't you think?

As for me - I believe I will leash Max on walks off the property but allow him off leash, supervised, on our property as Uabassoon suggested.

[chocolatepuppy]

stacwase Oh I agree nothing to get in a debate about. I think if you feel Max has good recall and feel safe about letting him loose close to home while he is supervised that is great. But I'd be careful taking him out more into the 'boonies' . I wouldn't want anything to happen to him! :)

[ParNone]

Safety's somewhat of an illusion. The closest Oz came to getting hit by car was when he was on leash. When I walk him through the neighborhood, I always stop and step over to the curb when I hear a car coming and usually the cars will go wide around me. A few months ago, a car come so close to us, I could have reached out and touched it. Not sure what he was thinking. I was just lucky that Oz was sticking right next to me. One step away from me and he would have easily been hit.

If I lived out in the country, I wouldn't hesitate to let him off leash on my property supervised. Mainly, because he'd be working the farm with me.

Par...

[stacwase]

Originally posted by ParNone
Safety's somewhat of an illusion. The closest Oz came to getting hit by car was when he was on leash. When I walk him through the neighborhood, I always stop and step over to the curb when I hear a car coming and usually the cars will go wide around me. A few months ago, a car come so close to us, I could have reached out and touched it. Not sure what he was thinking. I was just lucky that Oz was sticking right next to me. One step away from me and he would have easily been hit.

If I lived out in the country, I wouldn't hesitate to let him off leash on my property supervised. Mainly, because he'd be working the farm with me.

Par...

Gosh - it sounds like that person was TRYING to hurt Oz!

I really do feel llike safety is an illusion. I got Jake every single vaccine available. I gave him his heartworm medications, and just a month or so before he died I brought him to the vet and asked for a complete checkup. I kept him on a leash all the time (except on the trail, but he stayed right at my heel 100% of the time) , and brushed him regularly. I brought him on long walks and did everything I was supposed to do. I wanted him to live a good 16 years, like shelties are supposed to. And he died at only 7 1/2.

I am a little disgruntled about that. Can you tell?

[sabies]

Sadie almost got her head knocked off by a flying hub cap one time as we walked down a wide side walk. Some woman swerved too close too the curb (for no reason) and almost killed my dog. Sadie was on leash, we were as far from the street as possible, and I was closer to the street than she, but still this hub cap missed her by inches only.

Sadie is often off leash, supervised, in safe areas. I spent a lot of time training her to obey my commands despite temptation by a cat or squirrel. Because of that she won't run if the leash breaks or someone else leaves a door open. I feel she is more safe since she knows how to behave off leash.

[dukedogsmom]

stacwase, when I replied, I was hoping you wouldn't take my answer the wrong way. I live in an area not far from a very major roadway. I did, at one time, let Duke run loose. He used to stay on our 2 1/2 acres. But, he got to where he'd be gone for hours. I wish I'd had a camera on his head because I'd love to have seen his adventures. Anyway, he got to where he was chasing cars and that was it. Now, I look back and see how irresponsible I was. But, I think Max running loose on your property and long leash when on others is a great compromise.

[stacwase]

No hard feelings!

I just wanted to let you guys know that I didn't just drop off the thread. I was at the farm, and a lot of junk has been going on. My husband is going to Iraq and we're in the middle of moving, and life's kind of a mess right now.

[swimma253]

Originally posted by stacwase





I was actually really worried about the electric fence. He got shocked while he was jumping over it, so then he was inside the field and I was worried he'd get shocked again coming out.

He's OK now - but does anybody know anything about those fences? How bad do they shock? Are they dangerous? I'm thinking I should call the farmer and ask him to turn it off when we go for our walks.

I went down to see some horses on my street who are contained by a electric fence... and stupid me leaned over to pet the horse... and of course I touched it! Let me explain what it feels like so you dont get worried.

It felt like my leg muscle pounded my leg.... like a Jolt. It hurt for one second. I mean... it hurt but I didnt really fuss over it because it only hurt for like one second.

Just thought Id let you know so you dont get worried!

Carly

[RobiLee]

Max sounds like he loves the farm. What a great way to get some exercise and have him all tired and wore out in the evenings so everyone can relax. ;)

The farm sounds wonderful.

Robin :)

[stacwase]

Thanks, swimma! That makes me feel better!

I remember when I was reallly little (like maybe 3 years old) my dad brought home a coyote that was tangled in a fence, dead. It really stuck in my mind, because he told me it was the big bad wolf. Anyways - when I got older I always thought it was an electric fence that killed it. I don't know for sure. I'm sure my dad doesn't remember. That's kind of why I was so worried.

[Kfamr]

I just thought i'd bring this up.. I was watching some sort of Emergency Animal Vets show last night....

It was a owner who had the same idea as you, stacwase.
Her dog ended up going after a deer.... and the deer kicked him and severely injured him.

I know you know my opinion already that it's not safe.. but I really DO care about Max and his safety, and i'm just using this as an example to you.

[Corinna]

I'm coming in late for this thread but just another reason for not letting him run unsupervised. Here in Montana if a dog is seen chasing wildlife the wardens have the right to shoot the animal on sight no questions asked. The wildlife are "owned" by the state so they protect it.

[kingrattus]

E. fencing isn't that bad. Geez I have no idea how many times I've been shocked. 6-10 times to pet one horse in a field.

I got my crotch zapped on my aunts sheep farm as I was climbing over the fence, I slipped & fell on the top log where the e. wire was... lets just say ouch & my little cusans thought it was the funniest thing watching me, their older cuz, getting zapped down there & move SOOOOO quickly to get off the fence...

I'm such a slow person, never rush anything, but getting zapped down there causes u to have super powers in movement. :D :D :D

When I had Max he was NEVER EVER tied up. We lived beside a busy HWY inside of a town (with pop. its a city, but its still called a town when they claim to only have 9k pop.)

Max never chased anything he didn't have permission to chase or he never left his property (which was the neighbours yard too). The backyard wasn't fenced in, he would lay in the front yard while we sat on the steps & he would watch dogs bark at him as they walked by, kids running around (he loved totts), playing fetch in the park that was on the other side of the hwy.

I only had a leach on him in the parks so I wouldn't get in doo, by the evil park guys. I never held onto the leash tho. We would walk out of the house, he would run up to the hwy & sit & wait for me. he would heal as we crossed & then went in the direction I told him to go (left, right, or just point that way).

I took him for 3-6 hour walks in the bush where their r dozens of wild animals every where. If he saw something he would point to it & put his fur up & quickly look at me to see if it was ok to chase. 90% of the time I told him to chase it (get it, means chase it only, kill it, means attack it (was a needed tool against mutant squirrls, young coons, or anything else we ran into that was angry & wanted to eat me.. & it only worked on threatning ppl, if he was a push over I would not be here today, but he wouldn't just attack any person, he knew who was faking it & who wasn't).

I miss him so much.

[bckrazy]

stacwase, I think its supercool that you are living on a farm and Max gets the run of it :D I know my boy would love that! I disagree with keeping him onleash all of the time - youre basically walking around your backyard, its just larger than most. I would try working on his recall, working on him paying attention to you and focusing on you.. try randomly calling him to you during the walk (reward him with treats and praise), and make sure he stays near you and doesnt just wander off. I wouldnt worry too much about him getting confronted by a deer, cos theyre very fast and agile and can easily outrun your average doggy.

We just moved from a house that was right on a really huge, beautiful golf course and I used to always play ball and frisbee with Gonzo on it at night and I would run with him on the trails after the golfers went home. Kinda a similar situation. there were also lots of deer on the course at night, coyotes and raccoons, and some golfers stayed late so I had to always keep Gonzo in check. Every so often, especially if he was wandering too far, Id call him and run the other way and play chase with him, or call him to me and give him treats when he came. After a few weeks of consistent recall practice, he would stay within 10-20 feet of me at all times on the huge open golf course and still does off leash at any place. I so agree with you, dogs love freedom and they are so happy and content when they can just run with you in open spaces :) but safety is always a big priority, and dogs kinda get the "call of the wild" if theyre allowed to roam off leash without boundaries or training. Max also looks like a GSD mix, so he probably has some prey drive and will always have that urge to chase, but you can curb it with training. good luck :D Im definately not going to criticize you for giving your dog lots of good exercise and attention.

[stacwase]

Thanks for the support!

I wish I could describe how differently Max acts now that he's allowed outdoors off leash to run and get all of his energy out.

He acts so much more mature, and he comes much better when he is called. He sticks around the house. He is very concerned with keeping an eye on us. Maybe he's just scared that we'll leave and he'll miss a car ride!

I've noticed that with all the farm dogs in our area, now that I've been paying attention. There is a golden retriever who comes across our hay field to visit us, and once he brought his sister, but otherwise all of the dogs stay right by their houses all of the time, unless they're with their owners. Not a single one of them chases cars. I don't know why - I've definitely seen farm dogs chasing cars in other places.

There are about five farms within two miles of us, if you draw a circle. Every single one of them has outdoor dogs, and their dogs are often old and well-behaved. One lady has five and they all stay by the house (except the golden).

They won't even come out to the road. In fact, if they see a car coming or me walking by, they get even closer to the house - I guess to guard it.

The difference in behavior of farm dogs vs. town dogs is really a sight to see. I think that, if you hadn't seen it before, you'd be quite surprised. It's like the dogs have a job and take it very seriously. I really think they're in their element out there.