White chicks...Black chicks???

[nibblets]

The movie 'White Chicks' is out now and getting thumbs up for its comedy about two black cops portraying two rich white girls...(shades of Paris and Nicole). I plan on renting it when it comes out on DVD, I like the Wayans brothers.
I was asked by a co worker how I thought it would go over if a movie were made about two white cops who impersonate 'Black Chicks'. I had to admit that I think it would cause a huge racial backlash. Say they were two black sorority sisters and not some stereotypical version of black girls...would it be well received?
Maybe it wouldn't cause a stir...but I see the race card being played way too much these days and I think it would be over scrutinzed. What do you think?

[CatMama78]

Funny you should bring this up because that was my first thought when I heard about this movie. How if people were dressing up as any other race, this movie would be considered so racist!
:o Comments to myself!

Maybe prejudice is a better word. And I'm not saying it bothers me. I think it's silly! But all I'm saying is if the movie had been some person dressing up and imitating another race (be it Asian, African American, Hispanic - whatever race) and been called 'Fill in the Blank' Chicks, there would have been an uproar!

[G.P.girl]

i think it would be ok to do a "black chicks" movie. but only IF they didn't do it in the getto and make the black people seem all poor and unemployed. plus i don't htink "white chicks" is racist because the emphasis (sp?) is more on that they're dumb blondes than actual white people. but i haven't actually seen the movie yet, i'm waiting for it to come out on DVD

[Amber]

I saw the movie and I thought it was HALARIOUS! People were starring at me and my friends because we were laughing so hard. :p

I don't think it was racist

[nibblets]

Originally posted by Amber
I saw the movie and I thought it was HALARIOUS! People were starring at me and my friends because we were laughing so hard. :p

I don't think it was racist

I don't think anyone does think it is racist....however if it were turned around and the chicks were black rather than white, I think some would say it was.

[Kfamr]

I think alot of ignorant people would see it as racist if it were turned the other way. I'm personally sick of racial issues. We all bleed red, does it really matter our skin tone?


I can think of so many times where people have mad fun of white people, and everyone's just laughed it off.. but if it were switched around and turned into a joke against blacks, hispanics ect... everyone would blow up and make it into a racial comment... in reality it would be, but it's perfectly fine to say it against white people. :confused: :rolleyes:

[dukedogsmom]

I want to see it, too. Looks so funny! I am so sick of the double standard on racial issues. If the situation had been reversed, the ACLU and no telling whom else would be involved so quickly that we wouldn't even get to see the movie before it was pulled from public viewing. And that is totally wrong.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by Kfamr

I can think of so many times where people have mad fun of white people, and everyone's just laughed it off.. but if it were switched around and turned into a joke against blacks, hispanics ect... everyone would blow up and make it into a racial comment... in reality it would be, but it's perfectly fine to say it against white people. :confused: :rolleyes:

it's socially acceptable to make fun of white people, because, they have never been discriminated against, they've never been slaves, or treated like dirt because of their skin color. and so there's no history to make it racist, and people see it as, they got what they had coming. i'm not saying that makes it right...that's just how it is.

[Soledad]

Racism is about power. Not just about race. Blacks, as a group, are not in a position of power over whites. When a black person makes fun of a white person there is no history in the background of slavery, murder, lynching or Jim Crow.

Racism is not black in white, there are many shades of grey.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Interesting that no one sees the issue of women in this. How many movies -- comedies -- are there about men dressing up as women? Tony Curtis and Jack Lemon (can't remember the name of it...Some Like It Hot?) Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire, just to name a few. Comedies about women dressing as men? I can think of a tragedy movie -- but no comedies.

I don't know...what do you think?

[heinz57_79]

Personally, I think anyone who would think it racist is just silly. After all, as a white person I think we're just asking to be made fun of when we put people like Paris and Nicole on tv. If there's blondes out there who are offended by the "dumb blonde" image portrayed, tell them to complain to the tv execs who came up with the Simple Life and all the other shows with "dumb blonde" characters.... reality or not.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Interesting that no one sees the issue of women in this. How many movies -- comedies -- are there about men dressing up as women? Tony Curtis and Jack Lemon (can't remember the name of it...Some Like It Hot?) Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire, just to name a few. Comedies about women dressing as men? I can think of a tragedy movie -- but no comedies.

I don't know...what do you think?

well i think it's kinda similar to the black-white racists thing, but also that because men are so macho-macho, it's funny when you see a guy in a skirt. but since women have been fighting to have the same rights as men and wear the same clothes as them and do the things they do for so long, it's not really even funny anymore. just like girls can't really dress up as boys for halloween unless they wear a tux or something, but all guys have to do is put on a little make up and a skirt.;)

[WistfulPassage]

I don't think the movie was meant to be racist, but I am annoyed with the double standards involved. Somehow it's okay for black people to make all kinds of fun and jokes at the expense of white people. ( Or any other race really) But when white people do the same, it's racist. The term "reverse racism" is absurd, because racism is racism regardless of which race it comes from.
The same with women/men, gay/straight, whatever. Wherever discrimination is involved, there always seems to be this horrible double standard where the discriminated get away with all kinds of things as long as they are doing it to the percieved "discriminators". *Thinks of BET's comedy show- every joke is about how stupid white people are.*


Just my opinion and you know what they say about those...

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by WistfulPassage
I don't think the movie was meant to be racist, but I am annoyed with the double standards involved. Somehow it's okay for black people to make all kinds of fun and jokes at the expense of white people. ( Or any other race really) But when white people do the same, it's racist. The term "reverse racism" is absurd, because racism is racism regardless of which race it comes from.
The same with women/men, gay/straight, whatever. Wherever discrimination is involved, there always seems to be this horrible double standard where the discriminated get away with all kinds of things as long as they are doing it to the percieved "discriminators". *Thinks of BET's comedy show- every joke is about how stupid white people are.*


Just my opinion and you know what they say about those...
racism isn't just about one race hating another race. it's about one race having the power to hate and discriminate against another race, not only on the palyground where the white kid is making fun of the black kid, but in real life, in jobs, communities...everywhere. and white people have never had to feel that, they've always been the ones to discriminate against every other race there is in the world at some time or another in history. so they don't know what realy racism is. they just don't like being at the wrong end of a white person joke...JMO;)

[heinz57_79]

white people have never had to feel that, they've always been the ones to discriminate against every other race there is in the world at some time or another in history. so they don't know what realy racism is.

Actually, this isn't completely true. I just don't think we realise that we are being discrimintated against. A couple of examples: In this country, you have a better chance of getting into college and getting a scholarship if you are a minority... NOT if you're white. There are more funds out there for minorities, than there are for us. Mind you, I couldn't care less, but it is a fact.

Also, we may not feel the discrimination here, but I can tell you just about anyone who goes overseas will feel it at one time or another. Even in Hawaii. Because Hawaii's history with the white man is still fairly recent, there is still a LOT of resentment towards us. "Haoles" will get charged more for certain things than "kama'aina" (locals). White folks will get jumped just because they're white, and they're in the wrong part of town.

Overseas, because we have a habit of sticking our noses in where it doesn't belong there is a lot of dislike for the white person in general. Having lived overseas most of my life, I've experienced it. In Thailand, if you speak no Thai, you will be treated like crap and generally ripped off. However, if you take the time to learn the language and speak it PROPERLY you will be treated with more respect. If you are white, and walking by yourself the chances of you getting jumped are high in many parts of the world.

So really, the only white people who have never felt discrimination are the ones who have never left the US. I do agree with the idea that we have a very poor sense of humour. Unless it's OUR joke.

[G.P.girl]

exactly where overseas are you talking about? i've lived in Europe for a long time, and people who have darker skin are usually seen as drunk stealing good-for-nothing gypsies. and they try to make them go to separate schools, and look at them nasty and treat them bad if they do get in to a "real school" adn they don't like to let them work in their shops and things so they usually can only get construction jobs. and people don't like to sell or rent a house to non-white people. but that's beside that piont, we're talking about america, cause it's an american film. white people in america aren't discriminated against. it's not harder for a white kid to get in to college, the reason they have the hispanic/latino/black etc. scholarships is to even out the races in colleges, because most of the college is a bunch of white kids

[dukedogsmom]

GP girl, I think you need to wait and experience life before you can make those statements. Whites most certainly do experience racism. At my job, there's definate favoritism and we don't dare say anything about it. Also, there's certainly no white college fund. There's bad people in all races, not just blacks.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
There's bad people in all races, not just blacks.
what's that supposed to mean?

[catnapper]

Originally posted by G.P.girl
it's not harder for a white kid to get in to college, the reason they have the hispanic/latino/black etc. scholarships is to even out the races in colleges, because most of the college is a bunch of white kids

Just wait a few more years when you're applying to schools, and for financial aid. Then you'll see things a bit differently. When you REALLY want to get into a school and are turned down because a minority with a lower GPA and SAT is admitted instead of you, then rethink your statement.

The reason its mostly a bunch of white kids is also because many many minorities drop out of highschool long before tenth grade. I don't know what is in their culture to drive them away from education, but its not fair to make white students pay because a group of people were too lazy to study and get their diploma. My husband teaches in a school that is predominantly minorities. He has a kid in 6th grade who's failed 6th grade 4 times. He'll be 15 in September and still in 6th grade. He'll drop out the day he turns 16. Hubby sees it every day. In 6th grade, hubby's school is about 70% minorities. By 12th grade, its more like 20%. Thats hard to believe, but its true. This is why the colleges have mostly white kids... and those white kids are vying for positions with each other and being overlooked when a few minorities apply. Why should minorities be handed something just because their skin color is different? They should work as hard as anybody else to achieve their goals in life.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by catnapper
Just wait a few more years when you're applying to schools, and for financial aid. Then you'll see things a bit differently. When you REALLY want to get into a school and are turned down because a minority with a lower GPA and SAT is admitted instead of you, then rethink your statement.

Why should minorities be handed something just because their skin color is different? They should work as hard as anybody else to achieve their goals in life.

well actually, seeing as i'm a semi-minority, i will most likely being offered minority scholarships. where or not i'll accept them, i don't know. if i don't get any other scholarships, (which is unlikely) then i most likely will, since i know m parents won't be able to put 3 kids through an ivy league college. but i'd much rather have a scholarship that recognizes me for my academic and athletic achievments in high school. origionally these minorty scholarships were to keep schools from having all white students in them. now it's because the working middle class white families can afford to send their kids to college. now even though that might mean they have to give up their hummer, they can still afford it. and giving minorties a scholarship, might help some of those kids who live in the ghetto and want to go to college, but can't because their family doesn't even make what the college charges in a year, get in to a good college and have a chance. and i'm not saying it's totally fair, but it's based on general rule and until there is more of one minority than white people it will most likely stay that way.

EDIT:
The reason its mostly a bunch of white kids is also because many many minorities drop out of highschool long before tenth grade. i don't think that's a very fair statment to make, it all depends on where you live and where you're from. i'm sure there are plenty of white kids who drop out, but it probably seems liek less because people look at the minorities and one group...and then there's the white kids.

[catnapper]

I beg your pardon, but it IS a fair statement to make. Just look at the numbers. Its big here, its big in other cities and states where family and friends are teachers. I come from a large teaching family, as does my husband.

As for middle class affording college.... What middle class would you be referring to? We are solidly middle class and drive Saturns, not Hummers. The kids in my school disctrict driving Hummers live in million dollar homes and their parents rake in half a mil a year - that would classify as upper class. The only way my kids are going to college is through scholarships based on their athletics and academics. We barely pumake ends meet each month, how on earth are we going to afford an additional $20-30,000 a year per kid?

As for the ghetto kids... they'll get scholarships regardless color. Scholarships and grants are offered based on financial need. They are plentiful. I remember in highschool a cartoon pinned up on the guidance counselor's door. It showed two kids doing a perfect swan dive into a pool. It read under each of the two pictures: "The rich kid's way to college", and the other read "the poor kid's way to college" then they depicted a kid doing a major belly flop, it said "the middle class kid's way into collge" Its SO true.

I am not racist in any way. I just cannot justify the attitude that allows one kid get freebies while another has to work ten times harder for something. I live in an area that is 57% Latino. My Latino friends work VERY hard to fight the "stigma" of being a minority. Lets face it, there are judgements on a group of people... but my friends fight the sterotypes and strive to beat them. Too many people are just saying "well, thats what society expects of me, so I guess I'll never be anything but." Thats a cop-out and lazy!

[G.P.girl]

Too many people are just saying "well, thats what society expects of me, so I guess I'll never be anything but." Thats a cop-out and lazy!
you know, maybe it has nothing to do with their race, maybe they're just lazy people. maybe it just has to do with where and how they are raised.

[catnapper]

Originally posted by G.P.girl
you know, maybe it has nothing to do with their race, maybe they're just lazy people. maybe it just has to do with where and how they are raised.

Exactly. It pains me to see the kids get pregnant in 6th grade and drop out (its done more than you think:( ) and then you have the kids who start dealing drugs and drop out because they see the money is easy - why do they need an education when they've got the good life without one? Then these kids who are dealing drugs and gettign pregnant have kids who do the same thigns. Its an endless cycle. My husband had not one or two kids, but a half his class last year had at least one parent in jail on drug related charges. On parent-teacher nights, only 30 or so parents would show up out of 120 students. Its very sad, and indeed kids with little or no support at home will grow up to be a serious student unless the drive within was so strong to compensate for the lack of it within the home. A teacher can only do so much to foster a sense of accomplishment, pride, self-worth, and self-esteem in a student. The rest comes from the family. Ahhh... but we're digressing from the original intent of the thread! (Sorry)

[Karen]

Originally posted by G.P.girl
white people have never had to feel that, they've always been the ones to discriminate against every other race there is in the world at some time or another in history. so they don't know what realy racism is. they just don't like being at the wrong end of a white person joke...JMO;)

I started to reply to this the other day, but got interrupted and never did.

That is patently untrue.

Ask the Irish who immigrated here at the time of the potato famine in Ireland, who, when they went to get jobs, were met with signs "No Irish Need Apply."

Ask any immigrant group who has faced the same discrimination.

Ask my grandfather, the son of new Swedish immigrants to America, who was looked down upon by siblings for marrying a "foreigner" - my grandmother, who was the daughter of French-Canadian immigrants to America. If they were still around, you could ask my grandmother and her siblings, who were looked down on in their Massachusetts hometown for being "dumb Cannucks" because their first language was French.

Ask the Huguenots, essentially thrown out of France because they were protestant, not Catholic.

Ask the Armenians, slaughtered by the Turks for, well, being Armenian.

History is full of "white of white" discrimination, and "black on black" discrimination. Ask the ghost of the victims of the Rwanda massacre of just a few years ago, killed brutally by a different ethnic group, both groups are "black." Ask any black American girl or buy turned down for a date because her or his skin was "too dark." Or made fun of for being "high yellow."

The movie looks pretty darned dumb, in any case, and I won't be paying to see it. It is peculiar that women playing men is not nearly as common, or regarded as a source of comedy in film or television, as men playing women. "Yenta" wasn't exactly a comedy, and the only other "women playing men" roles I can think of are "women playing men impersonating women" as in Victor/Victoria and more recently "Connie and Carla," which I'm also not planning on seeing.

[Soledad]

Do any of you know *why* minorities are granted scholarships and grants? Try looking at the economic and educational futures of young black, Latino, American Indian, etc. children verses white children and you will start to get an answer. And while you're at it, why don't you try taking a look at all the things you CAN get scholarships for (like being Irish, Swedish, etc.) before you take the easy way out and blame it all on ethnic/racial minorities. Now THAT'S what I call lazy.

I'm sorry you feel so persecuted against as a white person...and I'm glad that you wouldn't have to spend even one week as a person of color. I don't think you could handle it without breaking down.

White on white discrimination such as with the Irish is definitely a part of history, but it's a matter of losing an accent. Much easier to overcome.

[heinz57_79]

I'm sorry, but discrimnation of any kind is not easily overcome. Accents have NOTHING to do with anything.

Most of the people I graduated with (I graduated from Bangkok, Thailand) were able to get into just about any university they wanted to because they were minorities. I, on the other hand, had to apply to a dozen schools, and didn't get ANY scholarships. And my test scores were better than just about everyone in my class, and I was much more well rounded in terms of extra curricular activities etc.

I don't think race should be a question on a college application. You should get in on acedemic achievement or not at all. When I was at college in Hawaii, my English Lit. class was told to take and grade freshman book reports. I was appalled! HPU is a private university, costing $25k a SEMESTER, not a year. I had to get loans and such to pay for it. Here I was looking at papers written by people who wrote the way they spoke, in pigin. Spelling and grammar were non-existant. I still don't understand how the school could justify admitting people like that.

GP Girl hasn't lived enough to be able to say much on the subject, except to keep re-hash her "white people are never discriminated against" idea. There is not a single race who has NOT been discriminated against. Whites who were Jews, Protestant, Catholic, Irish, and not to mention GAY have been discriminated against. Blacks, anyone of Middle Eastern descent, Hispanics, Asians. Everyone at one time or another. And it is not ok. Under any circumstance.

At the same time I believe that everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves. Whether that means not blaming their present on the past, or everyone having an equal chance of getting an education. No one should be given special treatment for any reason, unless they have achieved academic excellence or some other merit, NOT based on race etc.

And now I'll shush on the matter. I just had to have my say. :) Btw, Catnapper, I agree with everything you've said 110%! :D

[Soledad]

Originally posted by heinz57_79
I'm sorry, but discrimnation of any kind is not easily overcome. Accents have NOTHING to do with anything.


Apparently I need to break this down for you. The Irish were discriminated against at the turn of the century, but this didn't take long to end because as the generations passed assimilation occured. For the Irish, it was a simple matter of raising the next couple of generations as Americans (whose culture was not exactly completely opposite to the Irish way of life).

However, being black doesn't get washed out with the generations. It's blatantly obvious most of the time.

Look, I'm sorry if you had a hard time getting into the school of your choice for the price you would have liked. But there are far worse things to have to deal with in life. Be lucky that you came from a family with the means and inclination to value education.

As for illiterate college students, that has NOTHING to do with what race they are. I spent several months grading school exams and found any number of white, monolingual students who could barely write.

[catnapper]

Which brings me to my point... why should a kid get into a school because of their race/color/creed/sex? Shouldn't it be based upon merit? If you have a proven record of doing well in school and extracurricular activites, then you should be accepted into the college. It shouldn't be based upon finances, or what color/sex/creed you are. Just the pure ability to do the work and handle the work.

My son has a learning disability. This disability is his "leg-up" against the competiton because schools are tripping over themselves to fill seats with kids who have learning problems. After a few law-suits, the schools want people to see they won't discrimiate against "slow" kids. They are offering him free tutoring, free services to type his papers, free... a whole lot of things will be free. Hubby and I of course will take advantage of it. BUT I feel guilty. Our son should be working ten times harder than he is to overcome (thats not the right word, but I can't think of it right now) his disability. The boy's not dumb... quite the oposite. He's just LAZY. And I mean laziness goes to new heights with him.

I feel that so far, the schools have babied him and allowed him to make too many excuses for too many things. He can't write a proper sentence. OMG! you should read some of the stuff he's written. It makes your head hurt. The school says "Well he knows what he wants to say, but can't get it to paper." I'm dyslexic too (only with numbers, not words) so I know how he feels - the fear of getting it wrong, how easy it is to make the simplest mistakes... but he abslutely refuses to read or write. He's not made to do so at school. Thats not fair to send him to college when he's not prepared for the workload... then the school's only too anxious to offer him services that will help him. fine, help him. But how will that help him in life after graduation? Will they have people following him in his career writing his reports?

Why should a hard working kid lose their place in school/job/life because my lazy son has a disability? It the same thing in my book. Only they are giving him a free ticket because of dyslexia instead of the color of his skin. He'll never outgrow it. It'll always be a part of him, but I feel that its up to him to rise above it and become a success in spite of it not because of it.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by heinz57_79
GP Girl hasn't lived enough to be able to say much on the subject, except to keep re-hash her "white people are never discriminated against" idea.


how do you know?? you don't know where i've lived, or what i've been though! i've lived in places where the KKK hands out fliers on the street corner, leaning over black peoples cars to hand my (white) mom a flier. i've lived in places where people yell "KILL" when they see me walkign in to a store with my parents. i've lived in places where people discriminate against gypsies, and it's almost exactly like it was around the civil rights movement (minus some violence). i've lived in places that are 95% white people and they stare at you and ask "what are you?" when they see you. and follow you around the stores because they think you'll steal something. can you say the same? i doubt it. you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that just because someone is young, they don't know anything or have any experience in anything. but we're getting a little off topic here...sorry

Edit: also, i'm not saying white people are never discriminated against, but they certanitly haven't had it as bad as many other races. i'm not talking about in other countries. i'm talkign abou tin america (seeing as we were talking about an american film) ;)

[Miss Meow]

So, Catnapper, you're saying that kids shouldn't get in based on race, creed etc, but the system should be based on merit. However, you're letting your disabled, yet lazy, son in on the same basis, and that's OK. That doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

[Kfamr]

WOW. I agree with what the majority has said.


White people don't have it bad?
Hmm, lets see. I'm not able to listen to rap music, wear certain clothing, talk a certain way without being looked down on by black folks, or seen as a "wigger". I'm not allowed to walk through a certain part of school, because I don't wear FuBu, I don't have clean shoes, and my skin color is pale.

People are so stuck of leaving what's in the past, in the past, yet this slavery thing happened YEARS ago and it's still used as an excuse. I've seen more anti-White Blacks than I have anti-Black Whites.

I cannot change what my ancestors did, nor can I change how blacks, Jewish, and other cultures, religions, ect were treated in the past. I had nothing to do with it, nor did many of the blacks today, so why must we use it against eachother today, or use it as an excuse today?

I for one am so freaking SICK of how I am treated because of my ancestors. I did absolutely nothing to deserve to be frowned upon by Blacks, or any other races, and I do not plan on doing so. A white racial joke is oh so amusing to people, but if it was flipped it'd be racist. That's not right, and what happened before our time can not justify any of it.

Now, I'm not racist whatsoever. Sometimes I wish there were no such thing has skin colors. Too bad we aren't all grey, but then again -- some people would have a problem with what shade he or she is.

[G.P.girl]

I'm not allowed to walk through a certain part of school, because I don't wear FuBu, I don't have clean shoes
i doubt that has to do with the fact that you're white.


I for one am so freaking SICK of how I am treated because of my ancestors. I did absolutely nothing to deserve to be frowned upon by Blacks, or any other races
yeah....those blacks...what did they to deserve slavery? or any of the other races. they're all frowned upon for something by some other race. you're no different just becasue you're white.


I've seen more anti-White Blacks than I have anti-Black Whites.
hahahaha! ever been to georgia?

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by G.P.girl
i doubt that has to do with the fact that you're white.


yeah....those blacks...what did they to deserve slavery? or any of the other races. they're all frowned upon for something by some other race. you're no different just becasue you're white.


hahahaha! ever been to georgia?



Oh, okay -- I was only told one for wearing a fuBu sweatshirt by a Black kid, "You make us look bad"...


I'm part Native American. What did my ancestors deserve to be run out of their homes by the Spainards? I don't frown upon Spanish people because of this. I'm also part German. I do not hate Jewish people because of this.
How it was back in the days is back in the days and should not be used as an excuse for ANYONE of ANY race today.

I did not say I was different because I am white. People are not different. We are all human.. we all bleed red.
Yes, i've been to Georgia plenty of times.

[catnapper]

Miss Meow, I know it doesn't make sense. I'm trying to come to terms with it myself. I'm "working the system" because it seems that what you need to do to get ahead anymore and it stinks. If everyone else is shoving their foot in the door and knocking my kids down, I need everything in the world I can to give them the chance to get back up. I'm like a big mama bear who's riled up and ready to fight anyone to protect her cubs! :D

I hate that I am contradicting myself here. I know it and hate it. I am doing whatever it take to give him an edge. I wish that he'd actually work for what he has. He won't, and someday that'll come and bite him in the tooshy. Let it hit him later, right now, my main concern is getting him to college and doing whatever I can to make sure he has equal fighting power to get his name attached to whatever scholarships a school can offer.

But that's eactly what I mean... why should my son have an added advantage over the other kids? I really don't think he should. I honestly feel that if he didn't know schools were so eager to give him a scholarship that he'd be working hard. He so badly wants to become a history teacher (ironic, isn't it?) Funny thing is that he's genius level smart and blows everyone away with his knowledge... and he wants to pass his knowledge onto kids. He knows he needs college to attain this dream. If he didn't know about the accomadations schools make for kids like him, he'd be busting his rump to get the grades to proove himself and get into college on his own merit. Since he doesn't have to, he figures he won't. And if you think I'm going to be stupid enough not to take advantage of it... well, I'm not going to be stupid.

GP Girl, I'm so sorry that people react that way. My neighbors are a mixed couple with three of the most gorgeous kids I've ever met. I never ever onced stopped to think less of them or the kids. But I do know that people have. I've talked to my neighbor about the problems they've encountered, and all I can say is that intolerance is an evil thing. In fact, we've had many many long talks about this very subject. She sees it from her perspective, and then she sees it with how people respond to her gay brother. Same story, just a different group of people. All I can say is that you are lucky to have a good home life where your mother is strong and is teaching you to be a strong woman too. A good home life is supposed to diffuse the anger of the world and foster a sense of belonging and love. Too many people don't have that - regardless of color.

Kay, my kids wear FuBu... the socks were really cheap at JCPenny. They are comfy and the kids love them.

GP Girl (again... sorry, just hit preview and saw this) do you know how many blacks sold blacks into slavery? My husband is taking a course right now about Lincoln and it very interesting about slavery.. I can send you the book when he's done with it. Seriously, I'm being honest here... not at all condemning. He's been talking about this book all week and about how much its opened his eyes.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by Kfamr
I'm also part German. I do not hate Jewish people because of this.
How it was back in the days is back in the days and should not be used as an excuse for ANYONE of ANY race today.



why would you hate jewish people? if anything, they would hate the germans.
obviously i don't support racism and it would be much better if there wasn't any at all. but the fact is, there is. and there always will be. even if it's not as wide spread, there's always going to be a few ass holes who hate someone else because of thier skin color or religion. but just because a few races are more discriminated against than white people doesn't mean they have to go saying every single joke they make about white people is racist

catnapper, no i actually didn't know about blacks selling black slaves. (well i didn't know much about it) i'll have to look it up.

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by G.P.girl
why would you hate jewish people? if anything, they would hate the germans.

Because my ancestors did. Blacks hated whites back in the days, and vice versa.



but just because a few races are more discriminated against than white people doesn't mean they have to go saying every single joke they make about white people is racist

What? That really does not make sense.
Every "joke" about blacks is considered racist, so why shouldn't it be the same with white "jokes"?

[/B]

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by Kfamr
Blacks hated whites back in the days, and vice versa.
blacks didn't hate whites for no reason though. they didn't make the whites be their slaves. they most likely didnt like white people because they dragged them away from their homes, put them on slave ships where they could live in thier own crap and food like animals for a few weeks, then made them be their slaves and whipped them when they weren't working hard enough, and then lynched them when they finally did manage to get some rights. if whites didn't want blacks here, why did they bring them here?

[Kfamr]

I did not bring them here and I have no problem with them being here. The same with many whites today. No one in my family, that I know of has ever owned a slave.

This was years and years ago, WHY should it still be an issue today. No one can change the past.. we can only work on a better future. It being very difficult to do so with such idiotic people.

[heinz57_79]

Wow... this thread has really developed. Despite the difference of opinions in a lot of the posts, I think it's a good thread.

Catnapper, I understand how conflicted you must feel. You are in a very difficult situation, and I realise how hard it must be to want your son to get into college, but because of the circumstances you feel like a hypocrite. At least your son has goals, dreams and desires. At least you have a good idea that in getting into college he'll work to achieve those goals. Which is more than a lot of people who get free rides.

I'd like to say that I am NOT bent out of shape because i didn't get into the school I wanted at the price I wanted. I was ticked off because I worked my rear off and got NOTHING while people who barely squeaked by got offered everything under the sun.

You know, 200 hundred years ago the conflict between blacks and whites was justified. Blacks were sold into slavery and bought by whites who generally mistreated them. But that was 200 years ago! It does not provide justification for the blacks who are living in poverty and still ranting and raving about The White Man's Sins. If it did, then anyone who's people had a bad past could use it as an excuse for crimes, etc.

As I said before, there is NO excuse for any type of discrimination, whether it is based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc. And just because one has experienced it, is no excuse for any lapses in behaviour. Nor should race, religion, disability, sexual preference or anything besides merit be a consideration when it comes to government funds for education. Techincally, if justice is blind then everything else should be as well. How hard would it be? I mean, really!

[G.P.girl]

Catnapper, I understand how conflicted you must feel. You are in a very difficult situation, and I realise how hard it must be to want your son to get into college, but because of the circumstances you feel like a hypocrite. At least your son has goals, dreams and desires. At least you have a good idea that in getting into college he'll work to achieve those goals. Which is more than a lot of people who get free rides.

that sad this is, you gotta do what you gotta do to get in to a good college. you have to take what you can get whether it's fair or not, because if you don't some other kid is going to come and snatch it right out from under your nose and when you have a job interview they're not going to hire you on "well...i was going to go to college....but i didn't like the scholarships they offered me" it sucks..it really does, and it all goes back to the sue happy people who sue because their kid didn't get in to the college he wanted to, so they're going to tyr to turn it in to a racist/disability thing.

[Karen]

Originally posted by Soledad
White on white discrimination such as with the Irish is definitely a part of history, but it's a matter of losing an accent. Much easier to overcome.

That's not quite true. It was a matter not just of an accent, but of the names, and the looks, too. If you met Paul's family, for example, you'd have no doubt as to their ethnicity.

[heinz57_79]

Good point, Karen. How many people had to change their names when they immigrated here to avoid problems? And there are a lot of races who will stand out just as much as anyone with a different skin colour. the Irish and Scots have the red hair, pale skin, etc. (like me... blah) The semetic races tend to have semetic features, like UABassoon's gf, my friend, Alexa. She's about as white as they come, but you can tell she comes from a semetic background. It's never a matter of simply "losing an accent".

[DJFyrewolf36]

I just get so tired of everyone blaming a whole race for a small group of peoples issues. Its impossible to define every single member of a race based on a few people. Stereotypeing is evil IMO.

Being an @$$ is being an @$$ no matter what race you are. Being nice is being nice no matter what race you are. As someone said earlier in this thread we all bleed the same color.

I'm an advocate of the quit whining principle.

Sorry if that sounds overly angry but thats just how I feel.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by DJFyrewolf36

I'm an advocate of the quit whining principle.


who's whining?

[CountryWolf07]

I don't think anybody is whining here - just stating out their opinions..

[heinz57_79]

I think the "quit whining" was directed at the people who whine about "My great grandfather was oppressed!" and the like.

[ramanth]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Interesting that no one sees the issue of women in this. How many movies -- comedies -- are there about men dressing up as women? Tony Curtis and Jack Lemon (can't remember the name of it...Some Like It Hot?) Tootsie, Mrs. Doubtfire, just to name a few. Comedies about women dressing as men? I can think of a tragedy movie -- but no comedies.

I don't know...what do you think?

Disney's Mulan! :D

Well...okay...so it's an animated flick... but it IS funny! :D

[G.P.girl]

i love mulan!!!:D

[Cataholic]

I hate it when I am so late to a thread that is so interesting. I want to make a few comments, as a white female, and, so that no one questions if I have 'lived enough' to make these statements, I am 38. I have lived in the mid west and both coasts.

The problem with discrimination- be it religion, race, sexual preference, physical, whatever, is its necessarily silent nature. We ALL can say we aren't for discrimination. Who, really, would say, "heck yes, I discriminate! I hate (fill in the blank)". It is such a pervasive part of our CURRENT world. Forget the historical stuff...(not really, but, I am saying we have major problems today). While I might not have enslaved your people, my 'people' (the white majority) are still practicing discrimination today. It isn't in the form of endentured servitude, but, it still exists.

Just last week, in Boone County, Kentucky (reference for those inclined to look it up), a african american family was targeted. They had a cross burned in their front yard, and cinder blocks thrown through their car windows. 2004! This happened not in some backwater woods, but, less that 30 miles from the Greater Cincinnati area. I hear discriminatory stuff all the time! While not AT my work place (meaning from my co-workers or employer), I hear it in my capacity as an attorney. From clients. From other attorneys.

Because it is still in our country today (I am limiting myself to the US...), I think it is necessary to encourage, help, assist (you fill in the blank) minorities into colleges, into professional fields, into trades. I don't see it as the only answer, nor, necessarily, the best answer. But, it is an answer. Are there people that take advantage of it? Sure. It is human nature to take advantage of a situation. It isn't limited according to race/religion/gender.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a minority. I can **nearly** relate, by way of two incidents, and they will stay with me forever. Both took place in Worcester, Massachusetts, and put things into perspective. One time, I was with my girlfriend and her daughter. They are african american. I had the little girl with me. She was young, maybe 2? We were walking around a deli, getting something to eat. I was helping her pick out juice, and we were acting silly, so, we had drawn some attention, I am sure. I was kissing all over her, making her giggle. My girlfriend had already sat down at a table. I turned to look at her, and she nodded for me to look over at a table of four older adults. They were all staring at me and the little girl. They had a look of disgust on their faces. As soon as I looked, they ALL averted their gaze. We went back to my girlffriend's table, and she told me she had seen them staring at us, and whispering to one another. Now, maybe they were just disgusted cause I looked particularly heinous that day. I can't say for sure. But, it was not a warm and fuzzy feeling I got.

The second time, I was in a store with a PR friend. We were just looking around. I think I was shopping for something in particular, and they didn't have it, so, we were just killing time. He brought to my attention the fact we were being followed by store personnel. We WERE! I now noticed it. However, I had been completely oblvious to it..as I am usually not followed around in a store. He told me it happened quite often with him. Now, he doesn't look particularly 'thuggish', nor were we dressed poorly. He said he gets used to it, and laughed when I first told him I thought he was mistaken. The store clerk kept up with us, discretely, for the whole 7-10 minutes we were in the store! (No, we didn't steal anything. :p ).

I guess my point with those two incidents is..as a white female, I don't even have feelers out for such type of discrimination. It doesn't happen to me, so, I am not in tune to it. I can't imagine what it would feel like to think someone is watching me just because of my skin colour.

[G.P.girl]

it seems like people who are white and have black (or mixed) kids and people who are black and have white kids get stared almost more than just a single black person. (just to clarify, my mom is white, my dad is black, my older sister, younger brother and i are obviously mixed) one time when we lived in Georgia for a few months when my dad was in the army, my mother took me and my sister to a Kmart and these girls were sitting out in the parking lot (they were probly about 19-20) and they saw us and they started yelling at my mom "what have you done to that baby? you've cursed your baby! she's gonna grow up and HATe you!" and just stuff like that, there were more incidents like that, but that was the one i remember most.
oh yeah, lol, there was this one time when my dad was shopping with my little brother and he was a really pale baby, he looked even pale for a white kid, and there were 3 security guard following my dad around the store and he didn't get why, (and my dad isn't the kind to just keep his mouth shut) so he turns around and he asked them why they'd been following him for the last 20 minutes, and that flustered them alot...(maybe they'd never actually talked to a black man? ;)) but then they accused my dad of kidnapping my brother....then he got all pissed off and started yellingand then he showed then both their ID's and they let him go...but it's just the thought. and even though i think it's kind of funny now, it could have been a lot worse than that. people told my parents this place (i can't remember what it was called) but they said if they go there as a mixed couple with kids, they wouldn't be coming back.
there was a cross burning here too, it was a least a month ago, there was a black preacher and soe people came a burned a cross in his from yard, and i think they slashed his tires. i'm not sure exactly where this was, but it was one of the suburbs right north of seattle.
i think having a white scholarship program would defeat the whole purpouse of having other minorty scholarships. i think part of it is just people want more money to go to college (which is understandable) and so they think up all these thing they think they should be getting for anything they have (or haven't) done. and then they want to know why someone can get something adn they can't.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Cataholic
I hate it when I am so late to a thread that is so interesting. I want to make a few comments, as a white female, and, so that no one questions if I have 'lived enough' to make these statements, I am 38. I have lived in the mid west and both coasts.

The problem with discrimination- be it religion, race, sexual preference, physical, whatever, is its necessarily silent nature. We ALL can say we aren't for discrimination. Who, really, would say, "heck yes, I discriminate! I hate (fill in the blank)". It is such a pervasive part of our CURRENT world. Forget the historical stuff...(not really, but, I am saying we have major problems today). While I might not have enslaved your people, my 'people' (the white majority) are still practicing discrimination today. It isn't in the form of endentured servitude, but, it still exists.

Just last week, in Boone County, Kentucky (reference for those inclined to look it up), a african american family was targeted. They had a cross burned in their front yard, and cinder blocks thrown through their car windows. 2004! This happened not in some backwater woods, but, less that 30 miles from the Greater Cincinnati area. I hear discriminatory stuff all the time! While not AT my work place (meaning from my co-workers or employer), I hear it in my capacity as an attorney. From clients. From other attorneys.

Because it is still in our country today (I am limiting myself to the US...), I think it is necessary to encourage, help, assist (you fill in the blank) minorities into colleges, into professional fields, into trades. I don't see it as the only answer, nor, necessarily, the best answer. But, it is an answer. Are there people that take advantage of it? Sure. It is human nature to take advantage of a situation. It isn't limited according to race/religion/gender.

I can't imagine what it would be like to be a minority. I can **nearly** relate, by way of two incidents, and they will stay with me forever. Both took place in Worcester, Massachusetts, and put things into perspective. One time, I was with my girlfriend and her daughter. They are african american. I had the little girl with me. She was young, maybe 2? We were walking around a deli, getting something to eat. I was helping her pick out juice, and we were acting silly, so, we had drawn some attention, I am sure. I was kissing all over her, making her giggle. My girlfriend had already sat down at a table. I turned to look at her, and she nodded for me to look over at a table of four older adults. They were all staring at me and the little girl. They had a look of disgust on their faces. As soon as I looked, they ALL averted their gaze. We went back to my girlffriend's table, and she told me she had seen them staring at us, and whispering to one another. Now, maybe they were just disgusted cause I looked particularly heinous that day. I can't say for sure. But, it was not a warm and fuzzy feeling I got.

The second time, I was in a store with a PR friend. We were just looking around. I think I was shopping for something in particular, and they didn't have it, so, we were just killing time. He brought to my attention the fact we were being followed by store personnel. We WERE! I now noticed it. However, I had been completely oblvious to it..as I am usually not followed around in a store. He told me it happened quite often with him. Now, he doesn't look particularly 'thuggish', nor were we dressed poorly. He said he gets used to it, and laughed when I first told him I thought he was mistaken. The store clerk kept up with us, discretely, for the whole 7-10 minutes we were in the store! (No, we didn't steal anything. :p ).

I guess my point with those two incidents is..as a white female, I don't even have feelers out for such type of discrimination. It doesn't happen to me, so, I am not in tune to it. I can't imagine what it would feel like to think someone is watching me just because of my skin colour.

How in the world did I miss this thread???

Wow Johanna. I totally, 100%, agree with you.

There are times when I feel *stared at*, because of my skin color/religion. I can't help but notice people staring at me, and I know its because of who I am. It never bothers me to be honest.......Makes me laugh more than it hurts. It makes me laugh because of how ignorant they are towards me, and how little they seem to know before making judgements. I always give them a looooong stare right back, and that ALWAYS works in making them look away. :p

I am neither white, nor black, so I can't side with either, and say one faces more discrimination than the other. I would say blacks do, but recently, I have seen blacks at school calling whites *white trash* and other things that I can't stand hearing. But then the blacks call themselves *niggers* :rolleyes:, so I don't know what to think. They seem to call themselves that more than I have ever seen any whites say it. Why they would call themselves something like that, I don't know, but the fact is they do. I have heard it, and seen it, many times. I must say that us *middle colored ones*, are discriminated against just as much. I think all races experience racism up to a certain degree, by people of other races. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, brown, red, tan, whatever. SOMEONE out there is going to discrimate against you. While some races seem to face discrimination more, the fact is that all races face it to a certain degree. If you are white, and live in a land where whites are minority, I'm sure you'd face discrimination too.

Honestly though, discrimination in California is really, not like it is in other states. While I *have* experienced it, and continue to feel stared at on occasion, the fact is, whites are a minority here, and if you choose to live in CA, you choose to live amongst Asians, Indians, Mexicans, Arabs, and almost every other race that exists, so MOST whites here are very accepting and tolerant. Of course there are those bad apples here and there that show how much they hate you at first sight, but it still isn't so common that one would feel hated by everyone on the streets.

While discrimination is certainly not as *open* as it was in the past, it still exists in the hearts and minds of people. It doesn't only exist here in the US........it exists everywhere, in different forms, but still, everywhere. It is sad, and shameful, to discriminate against someone for something they have no control over. God created us in different colors, and we are all equal before God. We're all human beings, and no matter what the color, we are equal. Its just SO wrong to discriminate against people because of their race/religion/etc. Personally, I would *never* discriminate against anyone because of their skin color. I have friends that are as white as white can get, as well as friends that are of Asian/Indian/Arab/African/other descent. I cannot stand it when I hear people saying *Blacks act wierd* or *Chinese people don't know how to drive*, or any one of those sterotypes that I hear ALL the time. True, some blacks do act wierd, but a lot of whites and people of other races act wierd too. And I myself have experienced Chinese people driving poorly on the roads, but I have experienced that with other people too. You just can't make general statements like that. Its wrong.

I actually like it when people get married to someone of a different race. It always feels good to know there are people who love others no matter what skin color God gave them. To marry someone of a different race just shows how accepting and tolerant you are. I can't see why some people look down upon it. I feel its a good thing.....not only for the couple, but for their children too, who will most likely grow up not questioning and wondering about the skin color of others, just because it differs from their own.

[nibblets]

I can honestly and 100% positively say that no one in my ancestry ever contributed to slavery...they were all dirt poor. They were farmers and coalminers and worked hard for what little they did have.
I used to work with a woman who is African American. She loves to play the race card and flaunted to everyone how her kids both got into good colleges ahead of 'all the whites' because they were black. She would holler discrimination whenever something didn't go how she wanted it to go. She joined 'HISPA' [a hispanic organization through our employers -they do community service and help Hispanic students enter good schools- she felt she qualified because her mom is half latino] and bragged that the only reason she did it was to swing a few free [company paid] trips when they had their Conferences each year. She went to Puerto Rico, New York, and Las Vegas...but passed on the trips to places that were not as fun. She never attended the meetings and did slightly less than the bare minimum to get to go on these trips.
She brought in pics of her mom and dad and her grandparents when they were young. She had always led everyone to believe they had had a very tough life and she too had really suffered. In the pictures these people were dressed to the nines. High fashion suits, gloves, stilletto heels, hats, jewels....standing outside Jazz clubs. So the next day I brought in pics of my family... my dad in his sailor uniform (not the dress whites..just the navy ones they wore every day) while he was on leave and mom in her little cotton dress. This was right after he had come back from the South Pacific. My granparents who looked like the old couple in the painting 'American Gothic', and the topper, my other grandfather in old wornout lace up boots, holey overalls, in need of a shave and and haircut. A good stiff breeze would have blown the man over. Both men died by basically working themselves to death leaving wives to raise the family or run the farm. The one in the overalls left his family penniless when he passed. My dad was two at the time.
I do not look down on her family for being able to have afforded nice things and enjoying their lives, and I expect no pity for my relatives and the lives they led. Because in the long run...my family learned to work for what we have, we don't expect handouts and we deal with what life hands us. She cannot say the same thing. This is not a comparison neccesarily of black vs white...but more the idea that you can get what you want because 'everybody owes you' rather than working for what you have.
I think we do all people, not just minorities, a disservice when we take the work ethic away from them and hand them everything. What purpose does it serve to have a kid get into college but he is not at the level of intellect to keep up, and yet we deny another from getting in when they might just do great things with that education?
I'm not saying we shouldn't have welfare programs either, but they need to be a helping hand to get the person back on their feet again and help find the best way to do for themselves, not support them for life.
I am so tired of the whole politically correct,bipartisan, frivilous lawsuit filing. finger pointing, unaccountable society we live in...but what are ya gonna do? I can't change the world, so I'll just go to work and manage my little corner of this world the best way I can- treating others the way I would like to be treated, and respecting our differences rather than pointing them out for scorn.
I know I got off on a ramble there...and I may not have even made sense...but the way things are in this world, I just think its time we all started banding together as Americans instead of segregating and tearing our people apart.

[DJFyrewolf36]

Originally posted by nibblets
I can honestly and 100% positively say that no one in my ancestry ever contributed to slavery...they were all dirt poor. They were farmers and coalminers and worked hard for what little they did have.
I used to work with a woman who is African American. She loves to play the race card and flaunted to everyone how her kids both got into good colleges ahead of 'all the whites' because they were black. She would holler discrimination whenever something didn't go how she wanted it to go. She joined 'HISPA' [a hispanic organization through our employers -they do community service and help Hispanic students enter good schools- she felt she qualified because her mom is half latino] and bragged that the only reason she did it was to swing a few free [company paid] trips when they had their Conferences each year. She went to Puerto Rico, New York, and Las Vegas...but passed on the trips to places that were not as fun. She never attended the meetings and did slightly less than the bare minimum to get to go on these trips.
She brought in pics of her mom and dad and her grandparents when they were young. She had always led everyone to believe they had had a very tough life and she too had really suffered. In the pictures these people were dressed to the nines. High fashion suits, gloves, stilletto heels, hats, jewels....standing outside Jazz clubs. So the next day I brought in pics of my family... my dad in his sailor uniform (not the dress whites..just the navy ones they wore every day) while he was on leave and mom in her little cotton dress. This was right after he had come back from the South Pacific. My granparents who looked like the old couple in the painting 'American Gothic', and the topper, my other grandfather in old wornout lace up boots, holey overalls, in need of a shave and and haircut. A good stiff breeze would have blown the man over. Both men died by basically working themselves to death leaving wives to raise the family or run the farm. The one in the overalls left his family penniless when he passed. My dad was two at the time.
I do not look down on her family for being able to have afforded nice things and enjoying their lives, and I expect no pity for my relatives and the lives they led. Because in the long run...my family learned to work for what we have, we don't expect handouts and we deal with what life hands us. She cannot say the same thing. This is not a comparison neccesarily of black vs white...but more the idea that you can get what you want because 'everybody owes you' rather than working for what you have.
I think we do all people, not just minorities, a disservice when we take the work ethic away from them and hand them everything. What purpose does it serve to have a kid get into college but he is not at the level of intellect to keep up, and yet we deny another from getting in when they might just do great things with that education?
I'm not saying we shouldn't have welfare programs either, but they need to be a helping hand to get the person back on their feet again and help find the best way to do for themselves, not support them for life.
I am so tired of the whole politically correct,bipartisan, frivilous lawsuit filing. finger pointing, unaccountable society we live in...but what are ya gonna do? I can't change the world, so I'll just go to work and manage my little corner of this world the best way I can- treating others the way I would like to be treated, and respecting our differences rather than pointing them out for scorn.
I know I got off on a ramble there...and I may not have even made sense...but the way things are in this world, I just think its time we all started banding together as Americans instead of segregating and tearing our people apart.

This is what I was getting at when I said Quit Whining. I don't see how it helps just hand out something to someone who doesn't work for it. I don't mean just minorites either, I mean EVERYONE! There are people of every race that think the world owes them and that every slight in history means more for them. A person in a miniority group sponging off of people really does make the rest look bad because people are real quick to stereotype based on bad things. Notice how no one stereotypes good things? Like Hispanic or black kids working hard in school *there are lots of them*. For every 100 of them, there is a person who feels like they need to have everything given to them and THATS the person people notice. What about those 100 kids doing right with themselves? Sigh, it is stupid that people always focus on the negative.

[catnapper]

Well said Nibblets!

You know, I work hard for what I have. Thee's something inside me that won't let me accept freebies. Just yesterday I was offered a ton of stuff for free and INSISTED she take money for it... I had to talk her into $500. I feel like I'm robbing her. What makes me so different that I need to pay my way whereas other feel they are entitled sit back and wait for someone else to hand them something? It doesn't have anything to do with black or white becuase my white cousin is 30 and never ever had a job, lives on welfare and has a baby... no husband or boyfriend in the pitcure. She figures "why work when I can get what I want anyway?" GRRRR. Is it how we were raised? Then why is my cousin's sister VERY hardworking and industrious? Is it tied with mentality? Personality?

I too just try to live my life as honestly and happily as I can. I try to help everyone as I can. I am here only once, and I want to be proud of my life when its time to go.

[Twisterdog]

Until everyone in the world becomes completely blind to race, sex, income level ... and everything else that we currently discrimate against ... there are going to be injustices and wrongs.

ALL discrimination is wrong ... it doesn't matter if it is whites discriminating against blacks, men discriminating about women, Asians discriminating against whites ... whatever. It's all wrong. And attempting to justify discrimination by calling up past discrimination is faulty logic in the worst case ... "Someone did something wrong to my people in the past, so I'm going to do something just like it to their people now." Two wrongs do not make a right.

[G.P.girl]

well, this thread had certaintly progressed. i think some peole took what i was trying to say a little wrong, maybe i didn't write it very well, i didn't mean that we should just give scholarships to people because of their skin color, but i kind of thought of a good comparism, what if men started making a huge fuss and saying they're being sexually discriminated against? people would be like, shut up and quit whining, you've disriminated against women for years, just deal with it. it's kinda the same thing with the black-white thing, only since slavery ended so long ago, people think there isn't that much discrimination, just because it's not as public

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by G.P.girl
well, this thread had certaintly progressed. i think some peole took what i was trying to say a little wrong, maybe i didn't write it very well, i didn't mean that we should just give scholarships to people because of their skin color, but i kind of thought of a good comparism, what if men started making a huge fuss and saying they're being sexually discriminated against? people would be like, shut up and quit whining, you've disriminated against women for years, just deal with it. it's kinda the same thing with the black-white thing, only since slavery ended so long ago, people think there isn't that much discrimination, just because it's not as public

I didn't take what you said wrong. I think you are really hitting it on the head. While I (being a white female, US born) can sit here and say, "I didn't discriminate against 'your people', so get over it", I know it isn't quite that cut and dried. The injustices have gone on for so long. It isn't righted easily. And, there are people that rely on handouts. God forbid I ever find myself in that position. I can imagine being so down in the dumps, feeling so oppressed (whether I am or I am not oppressed), and not having the guidance, education, will, whatever, to lift myself out. But, it is so hard to really live that feeling, since I have largely had everything I needed given to me-home, food, clothing, education, etc.

An example- current day, kind of- is the still disparate treatment between men and women in the workplace. Women today still earn less, dollar for dollar, than men. Same education, same job, different pay. And, women have been afforded 'equal treatment' for decades! And, arguably, never had it so bad as, say, those that were enslaved.

I did my senior thesis (college, way back when) on Affirmative Action. Funny, I seem to remember having a different view of things then. 20 years later (goodness, I can't believe I admitted that), I feel strongly against what I wrote then. Why? Cause I see it too often in the work place, in the justice system. While we might be closer to 'perfection', we aren't there yet.

[K9soul]

I pretty much agree 100% with Twisterdog's feelings on the subject. I did want to clarify on something said earlier about whites going in and dragging blacks off to be slaves. That is not at all how it happened. Whites bought black slaves from other blacks from warring tribes who captured them and sold them. Also that slavery has roots back to before the days of Christ and was practiced by various races and ethnicities. I don't profess full knowledge of every instance of slavery but I know it is referred to even in the Bible, and that Vikings and other warring/raiding peoples commonly took slaves as spoils of war. I think too many tend to think of slavery as only happening in the US during the civil war era and only were black peoples owned by whites.

Again I agree that there is no excuse for treating any person as less because of their race/sex/color, etc. etc. I also personally believe all people should have the same opportunity for employment and education based on their own efforts.

[Soledad]

Whites Swim in Racial Preference
By Tim Wise, AlterNet. Posted February 20, 2003.
http://www.alternet.org/story/15223

Ask a fish what water is and you'll get no answer. Even if fish were capable of speech, they would likely have no explanation for the element they swim in every minute of every day of their lives. Water simply is. Fish take it for granted.

So too with this thing we hear so much about, "racial preference." While many whites seem to think the notion originated with affirmative action programs, intended to expand opportunities for historically marginalized people of color, racial preference has actually had a long and very white history.

Affirmative action for whites was embodied in the abolition of European indentured servitude, which left black (and occasionally indigenous) slaves as the only unfree labor in the colonies that would become the U.S.

Affirmative action for whites was the essence of the 1790 Naturalization Act, which allowed virtually any European immigrant to become a full citizen, even while blacks, Asians and American Indians could not.

Affirmative action for whites was the guiding principle of segregation, Asian exclusion laws, and the theft of half of Mexico for the fulfillment of Manifest Destiny.

In recent history, affirmative action for whites motivated racially restrictive housing policies that helped 15 million white families procure homes with FHA loans from the 1930s to the '60s, while people of color were mostly excluded from the same programs.

In other words, it is hardly an exaggeration to say that white America is the biggest collective recipient of racial preference in the history of the cosmos. It has skewed our laws, shaped our public policy and helped create the glaring inequalities with which we still live.

White families, on average, have a net worth that is 11 times the net worth of black families, according to a recent study; and this gap remains substantial even when only comparing families of like size, composition, education and income status.

A full-time black male worker in 2003 makes less in real dollar terms than similar white men were earning in 1967. Such realities are not merely indicative of the disadvantages faced by blacks, but indeed are evidence of the preferences afforded whites -- a demarcation of privilege that is the necessary flipside of discrimination.

Indeed, the value of preferences to whites over the years is so enormous that the current baby-boomer generation of whites is currently in the process of inheriting between $7-10 trillion in assets from their parents and grandparents -- property handed down by those who were able to accumulate assets at a time when people of color by and large could not. To place this in the proper perspective, we should note that this amount of money is more than all the outstanding mortgage debt, all the credit card debt, all the savings account assets, all the money in IRAs and 401k retirement plans, all the annual profits for U.S. manufacturers, and our entire merchandise trade deficit combined.

Yet few whites have ever thought of our position as resulting from racial preferences. Indeed, we pride ourselves on our hard work and ambition, as if somehow we invented the concepts.

As if we have worked harder than the folks who were forced to pick cotton and build levies for free; harder than the Latino immigrants who spend 10 hours a day in fields picking strawberries or tomatoes; harder than the (mostly) women of color who clean hotel rooms or change bedpans in hospitals, or the (mostly) men of color who collect our garbage.

We strike the pose of self-sufficiency while ignoring the advantages we have been afforded in every realm of activity: housing, education, employment, criminal justice, politics, banking and business. We ignore the fact that at almost every turn, our hard work has been met with access to an opportunity structure denied to millions of others. Privilege, to us, is like water to the fish: invisible precisely because we cannot imagine life without it.

It is that context that best explains the duplicity of the President's recent criticisms of affirmative action at the University of Michigan. President Bush, himself a lifelong recipient of affirmative action -- the kind set aside for the mediocre rich -- recently proclaimed that the school's policies were examples of unfair racial preference. Yet in doing so he not only showed a profound ignorance of the Michigan policy, but made clear the inability of yet another white person to grasp the magnitude of white privilege still in operation.

The President attacked Michigan's policy of awarding 20 points (on a 150-point evaluation scale) to undergraduate applicants who are members of underrepresented minorities (which at U of M means blacks, Latinos and American Indians). To many whites such a "preference" is blatantly discriminatory.

Bush failed to mention that greater numbers of points are awarded for other things that amount to preferences for whites to the exclusion of people of color.

For example, Michigan awards 20 points to any student from a low-income background, regardless of race. Since these points cannot be combined with those for minority status (in other words poor blacks don't get 40 points), in effect this is a preference for poor whites.

Then Michigan awards 16 points to students who hail from the Upper Peninsula of the state: a rural, largely isolated, and almost completely white area.
Of course both preferences are fair, based as they are on the recognition that economic status and even geography (as with race) can have a profound effect on the quality of K-12 schooling that one receives, and that no one should be punished for things that are beyond their control. But note that such preferences -- though disproportionately awarded to whites -- remain uncriticized, while preferences for people of color become the target for reactionary anger. Once again, white preference remains hidden because it is more subtle, more ingrained, and isn't called white preference, even if that's the effect.

But that's not all. Ten points are awarded to students who attended top-notch high schools, and another eight points are given to students who took an especially demanding AP and honors curriculum.

As with points for those from the Upper Peninsula, these preferences may be race-neutral in theory, but in practice they are anything but. Because of intense racial isolation (and Michigan's schools are the most segregated in America for blacks, according to research by the Harvard Civil Rights Project), students of color will rarely attend the "best" schools, and on average, schools serving mostly black and Latino students offer only a third as many AP and honors courses as schools serving mostly whites.
So even truly talented students of color will be unable to access those extra points simply because of where they live, their economic status and ultimately their race, which is intertwined with both.

Four more points are awarded to students who have a parent who attended the U of M: a kind of affirmative action with which the President is intimately familiar, and which almost exclusively goes to whites. Ironically, while alumni preference could work toward the interest of diversity if combined with aggressive race-based affirmative action (by creating a larger number of black and brown alums), the rollback of the latter, combined with the almost guaranteed retention of the former, will only further perpetuate white preference.

So the U of M offers 20 "extra" points to the typical black, Latino or indigenous applicant, while offering various combinations worth up to 58 extra points for students who will almost all be white. But while the first of these are seen as examples of racial preferences, the second are not, hidden as they are behind the structure of social inequities that limit where people live, where they go to school, and the kinds of opportunities they have been afforded. White preferences, the result of the normal workings of a racist society, can remain out of sight and out of mind, while the power of the state is turned against the paltry preferences meant to offset them.

Very telling is the oft-heard comment by whites, "If I had only been black I would have gotten into my first-choice college."

Such a statement not only ignores the fact that whites are more likely than members of any other group -- even with affirmative action in place -- to get into their first-choice school, but it also presumes, as anti-racist activist Paul Marcus explains, "that if these whites were black, everything else about their life would have remained the same." In other words, that it would have made no negative difference as to where they went to school, what their family income was, or anything else.

The ability to believe that being black would have made no difference (other than a beneficial one when it came time for college), and that being white has made no positive difference, is rooted in privilege itself: the privilege that allows one to not have to think about race on a daily basis; to not have one's intelligence questioned by best-selling books; to not have to worry about being viewed as a "out of place" when driving, shopping, buying a home, or for that matter, attending the University of Michigan.

So long as those privileges remain firmly in place and the preferential treatment that flows from those privileges continues to work to the benefit of whites, all talk of ending affirmative action is not only premature but a slap in the face to those who have fought, and died, for equal opportunity.