Fahrenheit 911 - For those who've seen it

[Soledad]

I thought I'd start a thread for those who have actually seen the movie to discuss how they felt about it.

I saw it this weekend and was blown away. People can quibble about the little points with MM, but I wonder when they'll start applying that same skepticism to GWB. It always amazes me how people like to get all riled up about someone who has no real power and completely ignore the real issues.

MM isn't up for re-election, GWB is. And I'd like to know how people here at PT WHO HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE were affected by it.

Politics aside, I have never been so completely moved by a movie. I still feel quite raw afterwards. I really urge those of you who don't know where you stand and are confused by all the things going on around us to see this movie. It may help make sense of things.

Does anyone think there will be a big impact because of it?

[joycenalex]

i haven't seen it yet, however, i'll be catching it this week, so i'll be happy to provide my opinion later.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
I still feel quite raw afterwards.


Baby powder with corn starch helps.


I enjoyed the interview showing the soldiers talking about how they liked to kill people with their guns.

[RedHedd]

It really hit me in the gut. Afterwards I felt so betrayed, duped, lied to, manipulated ..... I found myself crying uncontrollably on the drive home. And how about that insurgent group in Fresno? Sitting around eating cookies -- yup the FBI really needs to shut them down .... NOT! I wish the election were this week.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I'm off to see it now. Will let you know.

[G.P.girl]

i'll probly go see it tonight. As a faithful democrat i've been waiting to go see it since it came out

[lizbud]

It's just opened this last weekend here. I can't wait to see it.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I just returned from seeing it. I needed complete silence for a while afterwards....

I have been opposed to our invasion of Iraq since the beginning and disbelieving of the administration's justification so I didn't share Redhedd's feeling of betrayal. Horror, disgust, shame.

I thought the first part.....the connections between the Bush family and the Bin Landin family a bit too "Oliver Stoneish" for me. Not so much the validity of it as the presentation.

As for the limp, dead, maimed bodies of infants and children....the faces of young women destroyed by napalm (yes...we still use it), the young men of our country blown to pieces...hard to look at, yes but necessary to distinguish war from video games as one soldier put it.

To contrast that with the clip of Bush....in white tails....saying... to a group at a fund raiser "Some would call you the haves. I call you my base."

The fact that only one, ONLY ONE, member of congress has a child in the military.

I recognize it as propaganda, but so is every newcast, every press conference.

I disagree with one thing you said Soleded. I widh this could be seen by every voter.... see the grieving mother standing in front of the White House who is told off by another woman, see the man who had the FBI come to his door because he questioned the invasion of Iraq, listen to the soldiers who don't understand why they are there.

Then vote.

[popcornbird]

I haven't seen it yet, but I did go out to buy some things last night, and passed by the theater, which seemed to be PACKED at the time. Seems like a lot of people are showing interest in it.

I really want to watch it, but we just moved and have SO much to do at this point. I'm thinking we can wait a while.......maybe until it comes out on DVD, but I definitely want to watch it, and hopefully will once we settle down and have more free time.

[Lady's Human]

Napalm? It would be difficult to use a weapon that the last of which was destroyed a year before the Iraq war. The US Does use incendiary weapons, and any nation which states that they don't lies. Currently the US Uses FAE (Fuel air explosives), but the last napalm was destroyed on 4 april 2004 in a widely publicized event at fallbrook station.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I'm curious how April 2004 is a year before the invasion? Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" in May of 2003?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I'm curious how April 2004 is a year before the invasion? Bush declared "Mission Accomplished" in May of 2003?
I think Lady's Human is off by two years.....

A the napalm was stored in a Fallbrook, Ca. munitions dump for disposal....The year was 2001.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20030805-9999_1n5bomb.html

(the one and four are close together on the keyboard.)

Napalm is a banned substance/weapon under the Geneva Convention (Us? with outlawed weapons????):eek:

A FAE bomb looks like a naplam bomb because of the way it explodes, It's a two stage bomb.

In the first stage the bomb canister splits apart releasing a liquid which atomizies in the air. In the second stage a small explosive
ignites the mist causing the cloud to explode- it's the concussion that causes the damage to the target.


Napalm can be
compared to jellied gasoline. It ignites and falls to the ground -coating the target.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I thought Bush's attorneys had determined the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the U.S????:roll eyes:

So I'm hazy on which of our chemical weapons turns a person's face into a barely recognizable mass of liquified flesh?

[RICHARD]

Since Moore leaves out some facts that MAY make a difference in his Shockumentary, let's all sit down and learn.


The MK-77 is a napalm canister munition. The MK77 familiy is an evolution of the incendiary bombs M-47 and M-74, used during the conflict in Korea and the war in Vietnam. Napalm is an incendiary mixture of benzene, gasoline and polystyrene. The Marine Corps dropped all of the approximately 500 MK-77s used in the Gulf War. They were delivered primarily by the AV-8 Harriers from relatively low altitudes. During Operation Desert Storm MK-77s were used to ignite the Iraqis oil-filled fire trenches, which were part of barriers constructed in southern Kuwait.


So, we DID use naplam in the FIRST Gulf War.....which makes Moore's statement correct- but 13 years too late....the other little known fact is that the Mk 77 was also used to clear mine fields in the deserts of Iraq.

Again,

I don't mind Moore making a documentary.....

It's when you jump into an ice cream truck to get your message across......That's where I get lost.:eek:

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary


So I'm hazy on which of our chemical weapons turns a person's face into a barely recognizable mass of liquified flesh?

Chemical weapons???

where and when???

[Edwina's Secretary]

I guess you feel the message is more effective when delivered in white tails to the haves?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I guess you feel the message is more effective when delivered in white tails to the haves?

You may be off "base" with that comment...


Hey
Watch this shot!!


|>
|
O @---------------------------------------------------

[Lady's Human]

Pardon the typo. I meant April 4, 2001, not 2004. My fingers got hit with the typovirus.
Bush has never said that the Geneva convention does not apply to US Troops or the US Government as a whole. The only case in which the administration has made the case that the US does not have to follow the Geneva convention is in the case of non-uniformed personell on the battlefield, who are technically illegal combatants. The Geneva convention applies to uniformed soldiers on the battlefield, not terrorists.

[Soledad]

Lady's Human and RICHARD, have you seen the movie yet?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Lady's Human and RICHARD, have you seen the movie yet?


Does it count when it's a bootleg copy?

[DJFyrewolf36]

I have to make a comment, and I warn you it has nothing to do with MM or the "Film" well it does in a round about way but...

I find it funny that people are getting this riled up over a film. My opinion is any media (Including the news) is truth spun to convey the messages of whomever or whatever as the case sometimes is produced it. So why get POed when someone says it sucks. The film maker presented his opinion in hopes that people agree with him. If you do, he has done his job. Anyone who doesn't like it he couldn't care less if they paid him to. Spirited debate and discussion is fine but leave the mudslinging to the politicians.

They've had formal training and know all the proper safety rules.

I take everything I see and hear in the media with a truckload of salt. The truth is out there, its just hiding most of the time.

Watch/read things that quite obviously divert from your beliefs. Watch/read EVERYTHING you can.

And don't believe 99.9% of it :D

Stress is bad for you.

Ok I'm done.

[RICHARD]

The basic premise of this film is to get people to react in a 'knee jerk' fashion.

One thing about MM is the fact that he interjects himself into the story and uses his 'comedic talents' to distract the audience from the 'facts'
he leaves out.

There are areas that can be contested about the info contained in this film. I understand why people would come out of this film stunned and willing to make a change in our gov't.

For one thing, watching interviews of people leaving the theater scare the poop out of me..

Instead of hearing people say that they are going to 'look into the issues' before making a judgement about the movie, you have people who are convinced that every word in the movie is gospel.

It's good to have a film open up communcation about the issues, but the anger against the opposition is sad and rather childish.

Here in the southland a group of republican volunteers set up a table to sign up people who were coming out of the theater to vote....Not a real smart move if you ask me.

Well, it turns into a shouting match and someone spits on the guy at the table...

I have yet to figure out why anyone would want to go to jail over politics.

The guy in the movie that is visited by the FBI because of his arguement against the war was another thing that struck me as strange....

When the topic gets vicious it's time to back away or change the subject...We only have HIS point of view. We don't know if it was the pro-war people who were being jerks or if he had a 'jerk' attack
during the conversation.

Obviously, someone was agitated enough to call the FBI. Someone shot their mouth off, THAT was the reason why this guy was visited by the Feds...

That part of the film is a wash...everyone will lie to make it look like it was the other guy's fault.

It would make sense to take a few days to check out the facts in this movie....but then again, why
bother if MM is such a reliable, honest individual????

[DJFyrewolf36]

Originally posted by RICHARD

I have yet to figure out why anyone would want to go to jail over politics.


Nither have I, especially when there are way more fun reasons to go to jail!

[Lady's Human]

I started reading this thread out of interest in people's reactions to the movie. No, I have not seen the movie, however, I felt I had to interject when I saw the myth/lie (pick your noun) about the US using Napalm in the current conflict, and again when the statement was made that the President has stated that the geneva convention does not apply to the US.
Moore's "documentaries" include so much bias from the director of the movie and his claims on film have been debunked so frequently and thoroughly that I see no need to view the film, especially when my purchasing a ticket would just serve to enrich Mr. Moore. I would no more watch a Michael Moore documentary than I would one by Rush Limbaugh or Geraldo Rivera.
Anyone who taints their work so completely with their political bias as Moore has on a consistent basis does not deserve to have their work fall under the documentary category.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I thought Bush's attorneys had determined the Geneva
Conventions don't apply to the U.S????:
This is what I wrote.....based on recent front page stories that the attorneys for this adminstration had written a paper (brief perhaps) saying that torture of prisoners in the Iraq conflict was not forbidden under the Geneva conventions.

This...
when the statement was made that the President has stated that the geneva convention does not apply to the US.
is not what I said!

and Richard....I am surprised how in agreement you and MM are! one of the major points of the movies (and one of the scariest to me)was how easily the government was able to convince so many people of the imminent threat posed by Iraq --without facts to back it up!


if MM is such a reliable, honest individual
You mean like Rumsfeld...."we know they have wmd and we know where they are! Or Cheney perhaps????

Why is it any different if I believe their version of the truth?

[Lady's Human]

The WMD claim was made by almost every democrat in the senate when they were trying to prod President Clinton into doing something about Saddam. It amuses me when the same claim made by people from the other side of the aisle, based on the same intelligence data, is called a fabrication by the same Senators who were using that data to try to get the US to go to war.

[Soledad]

I started this thread for those to talk about the movie they had seen. If you haven't seen it, I'd appreciate you staying out of it. You can't have a discussion about a movie when you haven't even seen it. Keep the quibbling about specifics in the other F9-11 thread.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary


and Richard....I am surprised how in agreement you and MM are! one of the major points of the movies (and one of the scariest to me)was how easily the government was able to convince so many people of the imminent threat posed by Iraq --without facts to back it up!




Why is it any different if I believe their version of the truth?

I do take exception to the statement the MM and ME are in agreement. First of all, I am better looking than he is-

How's about the fact that millions of dollars were spent by people who are fooled by a fast edit, fade, voice overs and some facts that are skewed beyond belief....

What do I believe?????

Well, I can admit that maybe my beliefs are wrong, or I support a war thatmay not have been on the up and up or that maybe going in and deposing a dictator was wrong..
But I do believe that we should finish what we started.. I do have faith that things will work out in Iraq.

Some of the people in America DO NOT HAVE THE STOMACH for the war we are in....BUT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU, the same people who oppose the war
will be running around criticizing the government when we get a dirty bomb blown up in our back yard....

Don't worry, you'll be far away from the fallout.

Terrorists love big cities.

Make up your mind, I have.


Funny


Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I thought Bush's attorneys had determined the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the U.S????:roll eyes:

So I'm hazy on which of our chemical weapons turns a person's face into a barely recognizable mass of liquified flesh?

You are correct, you didn't say it, you typed it.

As to what you believe....

I have no control over what you believe.

I have no problem conceding a point when I am wrong...

The thing that entertains me is when I have a conversation with my pals and they bring up a subject like chemical weapon that we are accused of using in Iraq, I'll ask them for some kind of verification...

Let's make this a factual thread.

Prove to me (I'll only ask for two articles) that we have used chemweps in Iraq.

And while we are at it let's acknowledge that Richard Clarke signed to get the bin Ladens out of the USA.

The part that troubles me about farenhoot 9/11 is the visceral effect that it has had on the audiences.......

Even in the worst arguements about politics, I have no desire to spit on someone.

Of course, that only happens when you run out of arguements and have no self control.

[Edwina's Secretary]

To return to the subject....would you use the word visceral to describe the woman in the film who verbally assaults the sobbing mother of a recently killed soldier and and a protester?

And if only big cities are targets....what was the deal with that small Virginia town?

[lizzielou742]

Richard, sorry but you have not seen the movie?

The point of the movie is not to get into quibbles about whether or not we used napalm (you think the government would want that to be published?) or whether or not Iraq had WMDs, or whether or not etc. etc. etc.....

There are two main points in the movie:

1. The Bush family has a secretive relationship with the Bin Laden family and with top Saudi Arabian officials, which is why they avoided REALLY going after those behind 9/11, and also why they flew the Bin Laden family & other Saudi royals out of the US on September 13th, a fact confirmed by the airline. I went to college in Lexington, KY and some of my sorority sisters saw these people at Bluegrass Airport on their way out of the country on 9/13/2001. I remember how I felt that day, how horrified I was at what had happened, and how scared I was. It makes me sick to think that these people were barely even questioned before leaving the US. What if they knew something?? Like Moore says, if two days after the Oklahoma City bombings, Timothy McVeigh's entire extended family was quickly hustled out of the country with no questioning as to what they knew about McVeigh's plans to bomb a federal building first, how would you react to that?

2. American soldiers are dying - the current death toll is 857 Americans as of 6/29/04 - that the Bush administration told us needed to be fought to stop Saddam Hussein from using his WMDs, which of course he never had. Iraq was our scapegoat for 9/11, and young soliders are suffering the consequences. 857 families who are changed forever. How many more have to die? When the death toll hits 1,000 I will be sad but not surprised - will you be? Go see the movie, go witness that poor woman (Lila's) life now and try to put yourself in her shoes, and then justify this war to me. You can't, nothing can.

Go to http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/f911facts/ and read his rebuttals to point that have been disputed in the movie. He backs everything up. Or go to fahrenheit911.com and read about the movie. Educate yourself, believe what you want to. This is what I believe: the Bush administration is filled with criminals and John Kerry will easily become our next president.

PS Even with memos titled "Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside the US," George W. was on vacation 42% of the time between his inauguration and 9/11. Can you defend that? Or has Fox News scared you into submission?

[lizzielou742]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Some of the people in America DO NOT HAVE THE STOMACH for the war we are in....BUT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU, the same people who oppose the war will be running around criticizing the government when we get a dirty bomb blown up in our back yard....


Yes, you are correct, if that happened, I would TOTALLY be criticizing the government. And no, I do not have the stomach for this war, or any war.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizzielou742
Yes, you are correct, if that happened, I would TOTALLY be criticizing the government. And no, I do not have the stomach for this war, or any war.

Chew thoroughly before you swallow.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
To return to the subject....would you use the word visceral to describe the woman in the film who verbally assaults the sobbing mother of a recently killed soldier and and a protester?

And if only big cities are targets....what was the deal with that small Virginia town?

I can't spell vieceral, vicereal, vieceral?

What do you want me to say about that?

Some people are real a-holes.

What is the deal with small Virginia towns?
I never said terrorists were smart.

My dad always told me to start small, practice and perfect your strategy....

I wonder if Osama taught his minions the same lessons?



Liz,

one more time!

Does watching a bootleg copy count???

Had we gone into Saudi Arabia the same arguements would be brought up... We did it for the oil, we dropped napalm and chem weapons on innocents-

Osama's family has summarily disowned him.

You know, they should have kept the bin Ladens here in the United States.....left them to deal with all the morons, some of which decided that the poor Sikhs, who wore a turban as part of their
culture, were to blame for 9/11.

1,000 deaths for our side....

Do we get a toaster for reaching that number??

I'll state the obvious again...

58,000 men didn't come back from the Viet Nam war.
You probably don't remember the nightly news tote board........Killed in Action, Wounded and Missing...We should count our blessings that it's ONLY 857.

No, I don't want to put myself in Lila's shoes.
I feel that grieving is a personal thing. I also happen to feel that people are basically proud when their kids join the service...I would have a problem with it if my kid went to war and got killed, but I would never allow someone to profit with my grief..

I some how missed the Michael Moore War Fund, you know, the one that pays for a few kids of dead soldiers college funds.

No, I don't want to read MM's web site, He's misstated facts before, why change now?...some outside sources would be nice.

About the memos that OBL was going to strike in the United States......

Where can I find the memo that says 19 Saudis were going to hijack planes on 9/11??


I didn't vote for GWB, I do happen to thing that GWB's cabinet is filled with misfits and not so desirable people.

I do think that GWB is taking way too much vacation...think of this....I have 400 hours in my vacation account....who deserves it more, me or him???? (don't patronize me, either;) )

I find GWB's position on stem cell and abortion to be wrong....and I really don't like him calling upon his god to guide his hand.

I do find his wife to be kinda attractive, sometimes. His daughters are real cute-I think it's the drinking and wildness that turn me on...
But hey, that's just me and my perverse fantasies!!


Overall,
I give him a 'c' grade.

I really don't give a flying s--- about the president. He's what we get stuck with for four years-his audition is almost over. My concern is the mean effing attitudes that the political 'sides' have spawned in the last 20 years. It used to be wink, wink, nudge, nudge..now it's blackmail, mudslinging and bringing up who slept with who.

Since the general public is so beguiled with all that info, I guess things won't change soon.

I do care about my country, I do care about the people who live here with me, I do care about the civility that we should be treating each other with, something that we lost in between JFK's death and using chemical weapons on Iraqi women and children.

Oh wait a second.......BESIDES MICHAEL MOORE MAKING THAT STATEMENT....show me where we did!

We supported OBL in the 80's.....TRUTH

Our track record in Foreign Policy ain't the greatest....TRUTH

Had Al "numbn-ts" Gore won Tennessee, his home state, we wouldn't be having this conversation....
TRUTH.

I only watch Fox news for Jaime Colby, Rita Crosby and Linda Vester-eye candy!!!Claudia Cowan is a puppethead.....TRUTH!!

---------------------------

Why would you criticize the government for a dirty bomb????

What steps would you take to keep a terrorist from lighting one off in your backyard???

----------------------------

And here's my best John McEnroe imitation.....



ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!

[Soledad]

I think the hardest parts for me to watch were the scenes where the old Iraqi woman called to God asking where he was and the part where Lila talked about how her flesh ached for her son. I don't know why her phrasing it that way did me in, but it did. Footage of the Iraqi children getting medical care with no anesthetic was also gutwrenching.

It was also so hard to watch the soldiers. Even the ones who were pumped up. They're so young and they're there doing what they're told and doing it the best they can. It breaks your heart to think it's all in vain.

Also, I was very impressed by the way MM did not use video footage of 9-11. By using only the audio he avoided criticism of exploiting the event and made it even more powerful than you thought it could have been.

[RICHARD]

Moore probably didn't have the money to purchase the film clips for the film.

Audio is infinitely cheaper.


And I'd like to clarify a few points.


I do care about the office of the president.

The guys in the office are human and make mistakes- Marilyn, Monica, Iran-Contra, Watergate and so on. I have a lower tolerance for them when my elected officials lie to me.

Moore spends the first part of the movie going over the 2000 elections and how they were stolen.

GET OVER IT! I voted for the loser too!

Instead of chanting it like a mantra for three and a half years, we could have moved forward

Maybe we can get Mr Peabody, Sherman and the Way-Back Machine to go back and change a few votes.


And while we are at it let's change John Kerry's vote to go to war....Heaven help us! A war monger in the White House...

If he pick Dame Clinton to run with him that will make two votes for war.

A bit of trivia for you, Only TWO sitting Senators have ever been elected as Prez.

Soledad,
Let's put this into perspective-

Saddam built palaces instead of hospitals.
Jerked Kuwait around.
Gassed the Kurds
Let his sons run amuck
Jerked the UN inspectors around.

Who's to blame?

You'd think the leader of a country would at least WANT to take care of his people.

Nope, instead MM tries to move us to tears by tossing in some blood and gore, No, not AL...;)
Do you know what I thought when I saw that?

Maybe, because of this war for oil and land,
those people won't have to worry about influenza, diptheria, tetanus, measles and all that other funky stuff that happens when your leader decides to line his pockets, instead of taking care of you...

My heart bleeds for them too, but I am still looking forward, Hoping that someday there will be hospitals, anesthesia, doctors and nurses for these people....and while we are at it, let's toss in a school or two, a college and a university.

You are a smart gal......
It may have been the war that we should not have gotten into, but is it too late to try and make things right???? By them, and for us???

Brand me an optimist and a romantic....
And while you are at it, call me crazy.

---------------------------------------

Lila Lipscomb was talking to Debbie Norville
last night.

The one thing I find to be a real phenomena is when people take their grieving to the airways.
There are thousands of "family spokemen" that have lost their jobs because of this.

Now when I see a person championing a cause I wonder if they have their TiVo or VCR running.

I have become immune.

It's Lila's war now.

She can go ahead and make the rounds, until we find the next Dead-Soldier's-Mom-du-Jour.

Thank god Andy Warhol only gave people 15 minutes..I really hate to see people wallowing in pity for more than 16 minutes.

"Hey Lila this is Debbie Norville. Do you want to be on my show today??"

Lila: "No thanks Debbie, instead of wasting the money on air fare, a hotel and makeup, make a donation to the fund I set up in my son's name.
I figured if Michael Moore makes money with my pain I might be able to parley this into something that may help some other kid out there. You know, a college fund that may keep a kid in school, as opposed to having them join the service..."

[Soledad]

Sara, do you think you'd see it again? I've been offered another pair of tickets but I'm not so sure I can handle another viewing.

I am glad to see that it will be available on video/dvd by September. Hopefully it will help get Bush out. :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Soleded,

I'm not sure if I'll see it again. I went by myself as I didn't think my husband would want to see it. Now he says he does.... so I might. If I do at least I'll know when to close my eyes...

[Edwina's Secretary]

Moore spends the first part of the movie going over the 2000 elections and how they were stolen.

Perhaps because the election, like 9/11, is a national tragedy that should not be forgotten?


Maybe we can get Mr Peabody, Sherman and the Way-Back Machine to go back and change a few votes.

Whoever these people are need only COUNT the votes, they don't need to change any of them!


You'd think the leader of a country would at least WANT to take care of his people.

Would that be the "HAVES" or the "HAVE NOTS"?????

As long as we are talking senate trivia, you may recall from the film that only ONE congressperson has a child serving in the armed forces!

[Lady's Human]

The votes were counted. Several major media outlets did their own counts and came out with President Bush winning Florida repeatedly. The votes that WEREN't counted were votes from servicemembers serving overseas who had their ballots disqualified because they weren't postmarked. Military mail coming from theater is almost NEVER postmarked.

[RICHARD]

Where are the chemical weapons we used?????

I guess since we can't find any truth to that rumor, we can just ignore if and go on to the next fallacy.

tee hee--


The best scene of 9/11 is when Spiderman kicks Michael Moore's rear end...



You compare 9/11 to the election???? and call it a national tragedy?

Now that's a slap in the face of almost 4,000 dead people.....


If you own a globe the part that says "North Pole"
goes on top.

[Edwina's Secretary]

How many dead Iraqi civilians = tragedy? When we reach 4000 dead soldiers in Iraqi (and who knows how many maimed) will that be a national tragedy?

Richard, knowing the importance you place on accuracy I think rounding 2,996 up to 4,000 MIGHT be a little bit of hyperbole?

And I'm curious...why do you so often fall back on sarcasm and insults when you disagree with someone?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
How many dead Iraqi civilians = tragedy? When we reach 4000 dead soldiers in Iraqi (and who knows how many maimed) will that be a national tragedy?

And I'm curious...why do you so often fall back on sarcasm and insults when you disagree with someone?

I think it hit the tragedy level when I saw the bodies of Kuwaiti citizens hung from the booms of construction equipment in 91...

Geez,
What an optimist you are....4,000?????

LOLOLOLOL

I really don't disagree with most people. As a matter of fact we are probably closer in philosophy than you think.....it's that mean political animal in me that makes me lash out and
wanna argue.

I fall back on insults and sarcasm when I see someone posts something like WE USED CHEMWEPS IN IRAQ - I am sure someone like an embedded journalist would have seen and reported that fact.

I'd like to see someone, anyone, post two articles verifying that story, first it was napalm, then chemweps.

Next it will be a story about our mistreatment of prisoners of war at a prison I can't spell...

Again,
If MM is such a documentarian, purveyor of truth and a real American, why did he sit on the Abu Ghraib story IF he had it in his paws???

Did he choose filthy lucre over conscience?
Self promotion over selflessness?
Or was he confused about what he was looking at?.

Yep, some news outlets had the same story and sat on it.....But MM, the honest guy that he is, did not want to be accused of self promotion for his shockumentary-but he did choose to put the clip of the guy getting his package grabbed thru the blanket in the movie.

Were you properly shocked and aghast at some of the pictures of those bodies???

Where were the pictures of American men and women who were wounded and mained?

Instead we get interviews with soldiers saying the
play rock music while they kill people....

What's wrong with Celine Dion??


One of the most powerful pictures I saw in the last month was the Marine at Reagan's funeral...
You may have seen him, James E. Wright.

He lost both his hands in Iraq, won a Bronze Star in the process, put on his uniform and went to view the casket....

Most of us would have said p!ss on it.....I'm done, it's over...and sat done to have a proper pity party, what do you think drove this kid to
put on the uniform of his country, the country that sent him to lose his hands in a foreign country, and go out in public to honor a dead president.

It wasn't a Micheal Moore 'movie'.

-------------------------

Sarcasm??

Sometimes that's the only way I can get an answer.

Sometimes I am wrong.

I do have my globe upside down in the holder, it gives me an different outlook on the world and sometimes it makes more sense.

Now if you can get me a story about the United States using chemical weapons against Iraqi citizens I'll apologize to you.

Really!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary


Richard, knowing the importance you place on accuracy I think rounding 2,996 up to 4,000 MIGHT be a little bit of hyperbole?


DAMN,
I was counting the people in the WTC and all the soldiers that have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.


God forbid we lose 4,000 soldiers in this war...

Then I'll have to revise my totals to the more ominous 6,996...

---------------------------------------


When you hyperbole do you rent your shoes???

I have to.;)

[Catsnclay]

Originally posted by DJFyrewolf36

I take everything I see and hear in the media with a truckload of salt. The truth is out there, its just hiding most of the time.

Watch/read things that quite obviously divert from your beliefs. Watch/read EVERYTHING you can.

And don't believe 99.9% of it :D

Stress is bad for you.

Ok I'm done.

Just remember, anyone can take film clips and turn them into a different story. It happens all the time.

One local news station is notorious for doing that here......they will state a headline to "catch" your attention, then when actually watching the "news" you realize that the headline had nothing to do with the "real" story.......if that's what it really was.

Politics do it all the time, just watch the campain spots.

[Edwina's Secretary]

God forbid we lose 4,000 soldiers in this war...

From your lips to God's ear.....or perhaps I should say...from your keyboard to God's computer screen!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
From your lips to God's ear.....or perhaps I should say...from your keyboard to God's computer screen!

I like to THINK I have a special connection with my God....

But, can I reboot so he doesn't get THAT message?:confused:

[allanimalswelcome]

Saw the movie, had the movie blow me away, now love MM.

Interesting fact: The New York Times checked every over every bit of that movie to see if anything was made up or false information. None was found. Everything in that movie is true.
~Rachel

[Lady's Human]

The New York Times is hardly a bastion of unbiased journalism.

Newsweek, which is hardly a republican magazine, ran a very critical piece on the factual content of the movie.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by allanimalswelcome
Everything in that movie is true.
~Rachel


:confused:

[jonza]

I haven't seen the movie yet but thought this was possibly relevant. I wonder how many of the drinks throwers HAD actually seen the movie?

Casino ejects Ronstadt over 'Fahrenheit' praise
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 Posted: 12:19 AM EDT (0419 GMT)

LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) - Singer Linda Ronstadt was thrown out of the Aladdin casino in Las Vegas on the weekend after dedicating a song to liberal filmmaker Michael Moore and his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11," a casino spokeswoman said Monday.

Ronstadt, who had been hired for a one-show engagement Saturday night at the Las Vegas Strip casino, dedicated a performance of "Desperado" to Moore and his controversial documentary, which criticizes President Bush and the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

That dedication angered some Aladdin guests who spilled drinks, tore down posters and demanded their money back, said casino spokeswoman Sara Gorgon.
"We had quite a scene at the box office," she said.
About a quarter of the 4,500 people in the audience got up and left before the performance had finished, Gorgon said.

Before her concert, Ronstadt had laughingly told the Las Vegas Review-Journal that she hoped that the casino performance would be her last.
"I keep hoping that if I'm annoying enough to them, they won't hire me back," she was quoted as telling the newspaper.

A statement issued by the Aladdin said Ronstadt had been "escorted out of the hotel" just after her performance and said the performer would "not be welcomed back."
"Ms. Ronstadt was hired to entertain the guests of the Aladdin, not to espouse political views," the casino said.
Ronstadt was not immediately available for comment.



America - land of tolerance and free speech? This reminds me of the Dixie Chickens farce. Seems one has to be very careful what one says nowadays (if this is the whole story of course). I personally don't find spilling drinks and tearing down posters a very intelligent way of disagreeing with other people's views. Are Republicans more short tempered and intolerant than Democrats perhaps? Not being American, I wouldn't know of course. ;)

[Logan]

I heard of this, Jonza, and was appalled, personally, that she chose this forum to pose her political views. From what was reported on ABC radio news, yesterday, she called him a "true patriot" (Michael Moore)......give me a break! Applaud his movie if you want to, but calling him a patriot???? I was dismayed, personally, and I am someone who has always loved Linda Ronstadt's music.

[jonza]

Must admit that I don't quite agree with you that Michael Moore cannot be a true patriot. (As I mentioned. I don't know the full story). I would imagine that he means well in reality, and wants the best for America. Critics of a system are not necessarily unpatriotic. I do however agree that this was not the best forum for her to choose.
But why do people have to react so stupidly? :confused:

[Logan]

In my humble opinion (only my opinion), "Patriots" don't speak poorly of their country or their President, which is exactly what he has done, time and time again.......I have no respect for him or his followers...won't get into all the adjectives I have to describe him......but I am saddened and alarmed by all the people who are OK with what he says and mostly, "how" he says it. Michael Moore, Whoopie Goldberg and many others are in the same place as far as I am concerned. There is a decent way to push another agenda. They have not chosen that path, for sure, and I am very upset about it. Can you tell???

[popcornbird]

Logan? Have you see Farenheit 911? Just wondering....

I haven't btw, but I probably will when it comes out on DVD.

[Logan]

No, PCB, I haven't seen the movie. I don't intend to. I have just seen several interviews with him and reports about the movie, which helped me form my opinion.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Patriots" don't speak poorly of their country or their President

Does this mean, Ken Starr or Rush Limbaugh, for example, are not patriots because they spoke poorly of President Clinton? Or any of the many others who criticized him and spoke poorly of him?

So not speaking against Hitler or the Nazi government would have been patriotic?

I would not want to live in a country where to speak against the action of the government or those who are governing is a bad action. Sounds too much like a country someone like Saddam would govern.

If Linda Ronstadt had praised Bush would she have been escorted out? We are in an election. That too would be a political action.

[Soledad]

You know, Sara, I had an excellent quote in my signature from a Nazi official just about that topic. It succinctly said how easy it is to manipulate public opinion by accusing anyone who disagrees with you as unpatriotic. However, I was asked by Paul to take it off because people have some sort of problem with reading comprehension and thought I was supporting Nazis. :rolleyes: :mad: :eek: :confused:

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Logan
In my humble opinion (only my opinion), "Patriots" don't speak poorly of their country or their President, which is exactly what he has done, time and time again.......I have no respect for him or his followers...

Dearest Logan, if that's true, then it should mean the people of Iraq don't love their country if they speak poorly of Saddam. And Logan, I know from talking to you that if Kerry wins this coming election, you wouldn't like him. Would that mean you're not a patriot anymore? :p He he he...

I disagree with you on that. I guess that means half the people in the US don't care about their country. In my honest opinion, the ones that speak up against wrong, whether its against the president or whoever, are the true patriots, because they care enough about their nation to have the guts to speak up, and make people aware of what's really going on. Maybe you should watch the movie.......just watch it. You don't have to agree with things, but maybe it would help you understand the other side. I have a friend who was a total Bush lover and MM hater. She went to watch the movie, and told me the whole theater was crying, including herself. Totally changed her view on things. I really want to watch it.

[jonza]

Americans live in a democracy and the people should be free to make their own opinions known.

If Patriots won't speak poorly of their country or their President/Leader no matter what is happening, then I have no respect for patriots. That would be dangerously similar to the population of a country that caused a lot of trouble in Europe (and later the rest of the world) when I was a kid.

This isn't meant to be anti-American, I also hate all those British idiots who wander round in Union Jack pants and still believe that we have an Empire.

patriot: \Pa"tri*ot\, n. One who loves his country, and zealously supports its authority and interests.

zeal: n 1: a feeling of strong eagerness (usually in favor of a person or cause). 2: excessive fervor to do something or accomplish some end

It's the "excessive fervor" I'm not too keen on.

"So long as they don't get violent, I want to let everyone say what they wish, for I myself have always said exactly what pleased me." - Albert Einstein

[joycenalex]

...and it was hard to watch. i think of myself as fairly astute, but i didn't realize how connected the saudis and the bush family are. i am so depressed from the images and sounds. this was the first time i'd heard the planes hit the towers. i need time to think about this.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary

So not speaking against Hitler or the Nazi government would have been patriotic?




And take the chance of getting killed???:confused:

[jonza]

Sorry if we're sidetracking your thread Soledad, but I happened to get this from a friend yesterday, and it's pretty relevant as far as I can see.

“Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

Samuel Johnson, a British writer (1709-1784), once called patriotism "the last refuge of a scoundrel", but Julius Caesar, the Great Roman Emperor (102 B.C. - 44 B.C.) had a more illuminating insight into the phenomenon of patriotism:

"Beware the leader who beats the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is a double-edged sword. It emboldens the blood and narrows the mind.

And when the drums of war have reached fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need to seize the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

He certainly knew what he was talking about, and he was frank about it.
His life is also an important lesson to Mankind, and to modern would be emperors, that empires do not last forever.



I think this lesson should be taught to Presidents and Prime Ministers too!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza






And I am Caesar."


But you have to admit, the dude made a ROCKING salad.

[Lady's Human]

Actually, Caesar never uttered those words.

[jonza]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
Actually, Caesar never uttered those words.

Does that make them less relevant?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Actually, Caesar never uttered those words

Although I am old....I wasn't actually around when Caesar was so I am unable to say whether he actually uttered those words or not. And actually...he probably would have spoken in Latin...of which I only know a little bit.

:D :D

[Lady's Human]

The attachment of Caesar's name to the quote gives it weight which it would not otherwise have. Caesar's writings have survived well through the years, and his actual speeches are fairly well documented by Roman Historians. Without the attachment of "How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar. " would instantly give the quote credence with someone who was familiar with Caesar but not familiar with his writing.

[jonza]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
The attachment of Caesar's name to the quote gives it weight which it would not otherwise have. Caesar's writings have survived well through the years, and his actual speeches are fairly well documented by Roman Historians. Without the attachment of "How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar. " would instantly give the quote credence with someone who was familiar with Caesar but not familiar with his writing.

So I ask again - Does that make the quote less relevant?

[RICHARD]

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

http://www.brandonblog.homestead.com/files/2004/07/micheal-moore-what-have-you-done.html


:eek:

[Albea]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
Actually, Caesar never uttered those words.

Whether it was Julius Caesar or any other Caesar (powerful ruler or autocrat,) from the Romans to the 21st century, those words could have been said by any demagogue who was articulate enough to say them in a fleeting moment of honesty. There are enough examples in history of people being worked up to a frenzy of patriotism in order to distract them from the failures of the rulers.

[Lady's Human]

Without the addition of Gaius Julius's name, no one would even read it.

[RICHARD]

Re-reading that JC quote made me laugh.

HAD he said that, it's no wonder he got the shank from his fellow Romans.

I mean IF you have the formula to whip the multitudes into a frenzy by blinding them with rhetoric and warmongering, why admit to it???

HEY EVERYONE!!
I got you all to go to war for me. MORONS!

What a pompous and arrogant statement.

Our "war" wasn't started by us, Of course, we did happen to build some huge buildings that might have ticked some people off..

Skyscraper or hole in the ground in Afghanistan??

I have to think about it.

The long term effects of the war we took to Afghanistan and Iraq look to be beneficial in the long run. It's bad enough to fly in an plane worrying about the maintenance schedules to the fuselage and engines. I sure as hell don't want to worry about some moron with a fuse in his tennis shoe or some religious zealot yelling ALLAH AKBAR
as he noses over my vacation, my luggage and my unsuspecting rear end into some building that represents modern progress.

Patriotism?
Infantile disease?? I had my booster shots...

It's quite easy to blame ONE person when something
goes wrong-we seem to forget that Saddam had everyone fooled.....

The biggest chuckle I get is from people who call the 'war' illegal and immoral, but refuse to see what Saddam and Osama were doing before the other shoe dropped. Yep, we sat on our hands while this was going on before...but when the US, the Brits, the Aussies and ANYONE else who had the bits to join us made the move, we all were just as bad as Saddam or Osama.

When Hector Hamas or Jerry Jihad ever visit your town or city you'll hope your elected officials take a few minutes to climb out of their bomb shelters to rally the survivors with a couple of thumps on the drum....

George Bush probably wouldn't be my first choice at driving the bus to go to war....


But I'm glad there was someone with the keys, and the cojones to do SOMETHING about it

[Edwina's Secretary]

the war we took to Afghanistan and Iraq

What a creative way to describe it! Invade a country and call it "taking the war to...."

The world is not black and white...good guys vs bad guys. We support Saddam when it served our purposes, we supported Al Queda when it supported our purpose. And we continue to support Saudi Arabia -- land that spawned Osama bin Ladin and won't let me drive a car in their country!

And I have NEVER understood why anyone thinks it takes guts (cojones if you prefer) to send someone elses' sons and daughters to die in a foreign country.

The soldiers are brave, they have cojones. How many off-spring of congresspersons/presidents/vice-presidents/cabinet members are serving?????*


*one

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
land that spawned Osama bin Ladin and won't let me drive a car in their country!


The soldiers are brave, they have cojones. How many off-spring of congresspersons/presidents/vice-presidents/cabinet members are serving?????*


*one

I don't blame Saudi Arabia for not letting you drive your car there....It probably needs a wash.

Not that I am volunteering or anything.

I made a bet with a gal to wash her car if I was wrong about another bet. She has yet to get back to me about it.

I 'bet' Scarlett O'Hara would concede the wager.




-----------------------------------------------

Congressional Children in War
Deceits 53-56

Early in this segment, Moore states that "out of the 535 members of Congress, only one had an enlisted son in Iraq." The action of the segment consists of Moore
accosting Congressmen to try to convince them to have their children enlist in the military. At the end, Moore declares, “Not a single member of Congress wanted to
sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

Moore’s second statement is technically true, but duplicitous. Of course no-one would want to “sacrifice” his child in any way. But the fact is, Moore's opening
("only one") and his conclusion ("not a single member") are both incorrect. Sergeant Brooks Johnson, the son of South Dakota Democratic Senator Tim Johnson,
serves in the 101st Airborne Division and fought in Iraq in 2003. The son of California Republican Representative Duncan Hunter quit his job after September 11,
and enlisted in the Marines; his artillery unit was deployed in the heart of insurgent territory in February 2004. Delaware Senator Joseph Biden's son Beau is on
active duty in the Judge Advocate General Corps; although Beau Biden has no control over where he is deployed, he has not been sent to Iraq, and therefore does
not "count" for Moore's purposes. Seven members of Congress have been confirmed to have children in the military.

How about Cabinet members? Fahrenheit never raises the issue, because the answer would not fit Moore’s thesis. Attorney General John Ashcroft’s son is serving
on the U.S.S. McFaul in the Persian Gulf.

Why not count Duncan Hunter's son? Note the phrasing: "only one had an enlisted son in Iraq." Although Hunter's son "enlisted" in the Marines, he is a Second
Lieutenant, which means that he is above the rank of an "enlisted man." But why hide from the viewers how many Congressmen really have sons serving in the
military in Iraq?

The editing of the Congressional scenes borders on the fraudulent:

….Representative Kennedy (R-MN), one of the lawmakers accosted in Fahrenheit 9/11, was censored by Michael Moore.
According to the [Minneapolis] Star Tribune, Kennedy, when asked if he would be willing to send his son to Iraq, responded by stating that he had
a nephew who was en-route to Afghanistan. He went on to inform Moore that his son was thinking about a career in the navy and that two of his
nephews had already served in the armed forces. Kennedy’s side of the conversation, however, was cut from the film, leaving him looking bewildered
and defensive.
What was Michael’s excuse for trimming the key segment? Kennedy’s remarks didn’t help his thesis: “He mentioned that he had a nephew that was
going over to Afghanistan,” Moore recounted. “So then I said ‘No, no, that’s not our job here today. We want you to send your child to Iraq. Not a
nephew.’”
Kennedy lambasted Moore as a “master of the misleading” after viewing the interview in question.

-----------------------------------------

Most Senators and Congressfolks are past the 'child bearing' years....It reminds me of my job, I have worked with some doctor's kids....while most were pleasant, I met a few that made me wish for a screaming hemorrhoid rather than spending 10 more minutes in their presence. Why would a politico's kid be any different????

I'm sure the Services wouldn't mind a few Kerrys or Bushes to carry the sword.


Did I say guts???? You are six inches too far nortH

[RICHARD]

FOR THE RECORD..

Invasion- an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for
conquest or plunder.


Or in MY dictionary.

Invasion-Having to submit to the once-a-year prostate check the Haitian nurse practitioner gives me. You know, the one with the fat fingers.:eek: :rolleyes: :o :mad: :confused:

[jonza]

Oh dear! Now we're getting into a pointless political rant again. Why can't I keep my big mouth shut! Well Richard, at least it's nice to know that we can give you a good laugh, even if it is such a serious subject.

OK, let's all get pedantic here, there seems to be plenty of hairsplitting and nit picking going on already.

HEY EVERYONE!!
I got you all to go to war for me. MORONS!

Don't say that too loudly, it's uncomfortably close to the truth!
(Although I don't regard Americans as being morons)

What a pompous and arrogant statement.

Well you should know Richard, you appear to be quite good at making them too.

Our "war" wasn't started by us …

Your second one (third one?) wasn't started by Saddam either. (What's the difference between "war" and war by the way?)

The long term effects of the war we took to Afghanistan and Iraq look to be beneficial in the long run.

That's very difficult to see from outside America at the moment. Beneficial to Halliburton perhaps? I hope you're right, and that it will be beneficial to everyone, but find it doubtful.

Patriotism?
Infantile disease??

It was nationalism Einstein called an infantile disease, I don't know what his views on patriotism were. (So who's splitting hairs now?)

… but when the US, the Brits, the Aussies and ANYONE else who had the bits to join us made the move …

Don't forget to mention the Danes! They were so proud of their participation at first, but seem to have cooled down quite a lot since.

FOR THE RECORD..
Invasion- an act of invading; especially : incursion of an army for conquest or plunder.

There are a couple more interesting definitions here:
A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
An intrusion or encroachment.


… and regarding "Fahrenheit 9/11 is Having "Devastating" Impact on Military Morale":

If the article is correct it is very disturbing. But is it Michael Moore who's single-handedly to blame? Only Michael Moore? He alone? It's nice to have a scapegoat isn't it. Perhaps the administration should have foreseen such reactions and been a bit more open and honest about the reasons for the war from the very beginning.
Perhaps the administration should generally be more open and honest about a lot of things than they are being. What a terrible quandary those soldiers must be in. So sad that such a great nation should treat their forces in such an irresponsible way.

The article seems pretty biased (as all political comments are), but I did notice one thing in my naivety.

Moore has abused the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has.

As I understand it, The First Amendment goes like this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Could someone please explain to me how he's "abusing" that?

The other article on the "Fifty-nine deceits" is as far as I can see typically prejudiced political ranting and raving, some of it probably true. It is also self contradictory at times, and I doubt the veracity of quite a bit of it. But that's not the significance of the movie. If it makes people think about things from another perspective instead of just swallowing propaganda indiscriminately, then it has a valuable function. If it makes people pause and question things, to make them want to seek the truth behind the political "spin", then it has been productive. If it can show the world that America means it when it says it is a land of democracy and free speech.

I think America should be proud of the fact that it has citizens like Michael Moore who have the "bits" to say what they feel needs to be said in a repressive political climate. So there! :p

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza
If it makes people pause and question things, to make them want to seek the truth behind the political "spin", then it has been productive.

DUDE!!

Like Right On!!!

Just a little tidbit about Freedom of Speech.


Pompous and arrogant???

Why, Yes I will admit to that one....Of course, you can have all the pomp and arrogance you'd like when you pomp and arrogance about your own political views.. I have a problem when a person
adjusts the truth to fit their own agenda. And I love to goad the people who with-out-a-doubt subscribe to someone's twisted truth.

Pompous and arrogant??

I think I'll put that one on my business card....

Actually I think lending a submarine and a destroyer to a war effort qualifies as P and A, especially in a desert war. But I will remember the Danes, who were so hot on the idea of lending support to us, then cooled off.

If you put wheels on a submarine you might be able to use it as and armored personnel carrier....On second thought forget it....

Does the line, 'As funny as a screen door on a submarine' tickle you?

Our war....first, second or third.....

DUDE...we had about 3,000 people turned to little pieces on 9/11.. what is the number you need in order to take action??
I get the idea that some people snickered a little bit when we took it on the chin.

Well,
You tread on us, we tread back...

By the way, YOU seem so adamant about us kicking Saddam's
Arse to a hole in the ground you seem to be a little glum about it.
What's the problem??

I'm not a fan of dictators myself.....Saddam was just road kill on the way to getting rid of trash like that.

One thing that I do enjoy is the rhetoric that comes out of the American bashing...Do me a favor......

Today, get rid of all the things that us Americans have provided to the rest of the world....Velcro, polio vaccine, bad J-lo movies,
the phone, television, cars, airplanes and some other basic BS that you take for granted. computers, circuit boards, Lance Armstrong, David Hasselhoff...

Get the picture???

If my chest thumping-God Bless America attitude is a problem, remember, It's my guaranteed right under the First Amendment.
And that is my truth, not some edited, watered down waste of celluloid that masquerades as the truth....

Now I am not to sure about the politics of Denmark, It seems to be a nice place to live, a little below my radar and probably quite peace loving.....



I shudder to think of what would have happened had 4 airplanes decided to land on your soil...

In a typical myopic view of world politics people can't see what the benefits are of the American War against Terrorism is.

You harbor terrorism, we come out and clean your clock...

(OOPS! there I go again......Being brash, opinionated, and honest....)

I particularly don't want my city to be dirty bombed......neither do I want to see Oslo, Copenhagen or any other place on the planet treated that way.

GWB lied to us, because he was lied to....I mean when Vlad Putin calls you up to tell you that Saddam is a rotten so and so - you know things are bad.....And that wasn't too smart because Russia lost some Megabucks when the Saddamster went belly up.

Damn,
Being a loud mouthed long winded moron has it's disadvantages.
Hold on a second I need a Pepsi....

That's another thing you can shun as an American Corporate Entity.......Just don't Eff with Martha Stewart. O.K.?

There, I feel better.....

For my parting shot across your bow....(now you can use the submarine.....)

The SPIN...

Some of us are proud to have MM here in the US...Of course if he was polluting the airwaves in good old Denmark things may be a bit different......What do you have in the way of 'First Amendment'
right over there??? Being a heathen moron I just can't find anything relating to the subject!!

Let me explain the "SPIN" to you, Since we invented it we understand it more.....You know, sometime things get lost in the translation......

Spin = the twist you want to put on a news story. Just like the dog that chases it's tail you get dizzy and fall to the ground winded. Until it becomes time to chase your tail again....

Again.......I'll apologize to you and all the people I have offended with my rants about politics, terrorism and world affairs.

It's not easy being Red, White and Blue.

I say what I feel and I feel what I say. I'm sorry if you disagree or are offended by the content....and don't worry, If you ever need the HELP of the United States of America we won't hesitate.

You know, after all the stupid, dirty, illegal things we did in the past and across the world in the past, We still shine when we have to.

Best Wishes to you and yours!

:)




can that sticking the tongue out icon at the end of your missive be perceived as infantile????

Just kidding.

:D

[gini]

Oh my, Richard.

Last Sunday you were out on the beach of Venice - with some very beautiful women having a great time.

This Sunday you are in front of your computer jousting with Jonza.

Which is more fun?:D :D

[slick]

Originally posted by gini
Oh my, Richard.

Last Sunday you were out on the beach of Venice - with some very beautiful women having a great time.

This Sunday you are in front of your computer jousting with Jonza.

Which is more fun?:D :D
Not to mention that yellow bikini he saw....... :D :D Talk about "blinded by the light" !!!!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by gini
Oh my, Richard.

Last Sunday you were out on the beach of Venice - with some very beautiful women having a great time.

This Sunday you are in front of your computer jousting with Jonza.

Which is more fun?:D :D


More fun.......more fun.....women, of course......But sometimes you have to put the women aside and do the testosterone thing...

Jonza is a good sport about it.

We have our moments and everything is forgotten....

Slick,

Now tell me that I have to defend the fact that we have the most beautiful women in the world here in Southern California..

Yellow bikini.....hmmmmm.....yellow bikini........

Was I drooling???

:eek:

[DJFyrewolf36]

This thread has gotten my unnoficial *Best Thread to Lurk in* award!

I have no comments, other than:

Dang it, it is hilarious to listen to people banter!! Especially about politics :D

[WilsonVB]

Hi Richard

Wilson here.

Just got through reading all your nonsense regarding Iraq and propaganda and yadda yadda yadda….

“In December 2002, Bush seized 800 incriminating pages of the 2,000-page Iraqi report to the U.N., pages that contained the names of U.S. companies that supplied arms to Saddam, including details on weapons, dual-use technologies, and materials of mass destruction. That censored report, which rightfully belongs to the victims, not Bush, constitutes a major piece of evidence for any impartial war crimes tribunal.”
From one article Richard, but if you’d like to read more…
“More information trickled onto the back pages of “The New York Times” and “The Washington Post”. The main facts are no longer in dispute. In violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925 (which outlaws chemical warfare), the Reagan-Bush administration authorized the sale of poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, from anthrax to bubonic plague, throughout the '80s. In 1982, while Saddam Hussein constructed his machinery of war, Reagan and Bush removed Iraq from the State Department list of terrorist states.”
http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/time.html
I think you’re suffering from “The Boy in the Bubble Syndrome” Richard if you believe for one moment that America “is above” using chemical weapons anytime anywhere it pleases. And the hypocrisy of this verifiable fact in the face of your (and many other Americans) criticism of Iraq is anything but hypocrisy I’d entertain your explanation.

“Become familiar with Agent Orange and the Health of Our Vietnam Veterans”
http://www1.va.gov/agentorange

The US Biological Warfare in Korea

http://www.kimsoft.com/2000/mbc.htm

From cluster munitions to depleted uranium artillery shells, to chemical and biological warfare and of course not to forget the use of nuclear arms against a civilian population, no nation can hold a candle to the United States.

You might want to pull your head out of the sand sometime soon here Richard or I’m going to have to give you a history lesson you won’t like much.

[gini]

Hmmm, WilsonVB..........why is your style so familiar?

[jonza]

Well Richard, it's probably lucky for the rest of the world that we're not politicians (or Prime Ministers or Presidents)! My friends down in our local pub used to call me "Fowlie of the F.O." (The Foreign Office). This was possibly meant ironically, probably due to my occasional(?) lack of tact or sense of diplomacy.

There is another interesting aspect of this whole thing. As a kid I LOVED America (I still think it's a fantastic country). Living in the forties and fifties in drab old England, it was the dream place to go. I used to cut adverts out of American magazines and stick them on the bedroom wall. Anything American was great, The Marlboro Man, white walled tires, you name it. We used to follow the American GI's around and try to get invited to the PX (I think it was). A wonderful, colorful world full of Zippo lighters, multi colored plastic transistor radios and other such unattainable goodies. How sad that America has lost so much respect and is now so reviled over large parts of the world. So sad. This isn't an attack on America, it's an attack on the present administration. I'm disappointed. America DOES need a change!

But we shouldn't turn this into an "argument" now should we! (We are on Pet Talk after all). I'd prefer to see it as "jousting" as Gini so aptly put it. At least she didn't say we were "scrapping" or "bickering" or "brawling". Jousting is much more civilized isn't it, almost chivalrous!

So here we go again, though I must admit it's a little bit like trying to have a discussion with a brick wall:

"I have a problem when a person adjusts the truth to fit their own agenda".
My goodness! … you must have a massive problem with George and Dick and all the others in the White House! Not to mention the overwhelming evidence of their obsessive secrecy.
"Subscribing to someone's twisted truth?" You want that, subscribe to the White House.

"By the way, YOU seem so adamant about us kicking Saddam's Arse to a hole in the ground you seem to be a little glum about it. What's the problem??"
You just don't understand do you. Or perhaps you don't WANT to understand. The problem is about lies and deceit and manipulation of the truth, not to mention gigantic doses of hypocrisy.

"DUDE...we had about 3,000 people turned to little pieces on 9/11.. what is the number you need in order to take action??
I get the idea that some people snickered a little bit when we took it on the chin."
You've got no idea what you're talking about or who you're talking to. I've got all the live news on that and the fantastic documentary made by the two French brothers on tape. We must NEVER forget what those primitive savages did, I think these programs should be repeated regularly, so no one can ever forget the horror and injustice of it. Of course it was an act of war, and HAD to lead to retaliation.

"Well, You tread on us, we tread back"
I don't tread on anyone. That wasn't a threat again was it?

“If my chest thumping-God Bless America attitude is a problem, remember, It's my guaranteed right under the First Amendment.
And that is my truth, not some edited, watered down waste of celluloid that masquerades as the truth …"
Then how come Michael Moore is (quote from your link): "abusing the First Amendment and is hurting us worse than the enemy has" for doing exactly the same thing as you are? Perhaps your "chest thumping-God Bless America attitude" is hurting YOUR credibility too. The comment sounds a bit too much like hypocrisy to me.

"can that sticking the tongue out icon at the end of your missive be perceived as infantile????"
Ha, great! I just thought a smiley might lighten up the message a bit, I hadn't even noticed that he stuck his tongue out! I'd do it again though!

… and finaly, I still can't understand your sarcasm concerning the Danish submarine. The US used them too didn't they? Here's an even better one for you. They sent a snow plow to Saudi Arabia (by mistake they said), but apparently it came in extremely useful. Pushing sand around or something. Bit embarrassing though. You should be able to get a cheap laugh out of that. Tell all your friends how stupid the Danes are. Isn't that how you usually get your laughs, making fun of people who are trying to help you? It's not a very good idea in the long run though.


By the way, sorry we've hijacked your thread Soledad, hope you have found it entertaining at least! ;)

[lbaker]

WilsonVB, Gini said "familiar". I say transparent. Jonza and I have much in common, politically wise, but it's not quite the vitriolic spewing you appear of which to be so fond. I can appreciate the differences we have here - Jonza, Richard & I - but don't appreciate the personal uglyness you sprout. I CAN take you out..

[WilsonVB]

lbaker

I simply quoted articles from newspapers and the Internet!

If you don't like the truth about America you'd best join Richard in the litterbox searching for something that smells better than the truth you both don't like to confront.

Isn't it time America grew up?

[WilsonVB]

Hello everyone!

Millions upon millions of people vehemently expressed their disapproval of the Bush administrations decision to invade Iraq. Bush nor the Senate nor Congress listened to the protests of neither thousands in the streets of America nor millions around the world. ‘After the fact’ a preponderance of evidence clearly establishes that the rationale cited for this pre-emptive military action was based on faulty inaccurate and egregiously “misinterpreted” data. Data that some have characterized as having been manipulated to exaggerate the “urgency” (to quote President Bush) of the need to militarily disarm Saddam Hussein and prevent the proliferation of WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction).

What we do know with considerable surety is that one-year after the invasion, “evidence” provided the United Nations in a summary presented by Colin Powel to the Security Council has been established as entirely false if not intentionally misleading.

We know that after the investigation of the 9/11 atrocity that there is not now nor ever was a credible link between Al Qeada and Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship.

We know that overwhelming anecdotal evidence exists suggesting links between Bush petroleum interests and the Bin Laden family existed prior to September 11/2001 and that official airport flight records support the contention that private Saudi flights left the United States under Whitehouse authority while all other private and commercial air traffic had been suspended by the FAA.

We know that alleged “stockpiles” of WMDs have not been found and every indication suggests that neither the invading U.S. military nor the Untied States itself was ever under any existing ‘threat’ given the presumed availability of chemical biological and nuclear weapons such stockpiles would have presented. Quite simply, there has been no conclusive evidence supporting this contention in any way shape or form.

To the contrary, the people of the United States have witnessed the evisceration of the twelfth and fourteenth amendments by the PATRIOT ACT and the Whitehouse continues to urge greater development of even more “security” cabinets and departments. The Bush administration has demonstrated its disdain for international law while having cited that very same international law in legitimizing the “need” for immediate military action against Iraq.

Many folk aren’t ‘connected’ to the WWW (World Wide Web) and rely solely upon information conveyed through nationally televised news broadcasts and major daily newspapers in the United States for their sense of “what’s going on in the world”.

The New York Times has published an admission that it presented “unverified” and as it turns out absolutely false information regarding Iraq’s pursuit of weapons-grade Uranium and “centrifuge” components used in enriching plutonium to weapons grade material. In fact to their credit the editors of the New York Times have admitted to a lengthy list of misleading and quite plainly, “false” news reports that may have influenced Americans to erroneous conclusions regarding the purported Iraqi weapons programs and weapons stockpiles.

The Washington Post has never forthrightly offered a similar admission, however there exists an overwhelming preponderance of evidence supporting the contention that the Washington Post’s reports were similarly unreliable.

America has lived through the shame of Regan and North’s ‘deal’ with Iranians to supply money and weapons to the Contras in Nicaragua. America has lived with the legacy of lies perpetrated by Richard Nixon’s Watergate and Lyndon Johnson’s policies during the “Bright and Shining Lie” of the Viet Nam era.

If anything, even if Michael Moore’s “Fahrenheit 9/11” is as some have described it a clumsy ill conceived and poorly presented “shlockumentary” that plays “loose and free” with the facts surrounding the Bush administration, it does invite serious questions. Questions regarding the Bush family’s relationship to the Saudis and the ‘rationale’ behind America’s change in policy from a nation that defended itself in the face of aggression to a nation prepared to prosecute invasion on highly questionable grounds.

America has suffered at the hands of the Bush administration and the greater suffering is and ought to be felt by the people of America. Is there any reason of any kind to believe anything this administration tells its own people?

[lbaker]

What you are saying is NOT my issue here. Much of what you are saying I truly agree with. My issue is the personal slurring of another PetTalker that I happen to be fond of.. not because of politics or "speechifying" but because of the honest care we are SUPPOSED to have here. GET IT?

"join Richard in the litterbox"
Now THAT'S an intellegent statement!!

[slick]

Originally posted by lbaker
What you are saying is NOT my issue here. Much of what you are saying I truly agree with. My issue is the personal slurring of another PetTalker that I happen to be fond of.. not because of politics or "speechifying" but because of the honest care we are SUPPOSED to have here. GET IT?

"join Richard in the litterbox"
Now THAT'S an intellegent statement!!
Forget it Laurie. Some people will never GET IT!
Wilson, with all due respect, Richard is a friend of many people here and when you insult him, you are insulting us too! I agree that everyone was a right to his/her own opinion but it can be expressed in a tactful manner.

You've made suggestions that he lives in a bubble and has his head stuck in the sand; if you were to see him in action like I have, you'd back down pretty fast.

And that's all I've got to say about that.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Gosh, I really feel very unloved! All the aspersions that have been cast at me in the course of political discussion on here and no one has EVER rushed to my defense! :( :(

[Soledad]

ES!! You're breaking my heart. It's too bad you don't have your own fan club on PT like RICHARD. Maybe you should be more non-sensical and talk out of your a** more often. ;)

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Soledad
ES!! You're breaking my heart. It's too bad you don't have your own fan club on PT like RICHARD. Maybe you should be more non-sensical and talk out of your a** more often. ;)

She does have a fan club! ME! :p I don't think I have ever found any disagreement with what Sara has had to say in the Dog House. She's breaking my heart too!! :(

You are all SO unfair to not defend Sara.........so unfair. ;)

[slick]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Gosh, I really feel very unloved! All the aspersions that have been cast at me in the course of political discussion on here and no one has EVER rushed to my defense! :( :(
Sara: as much as you and Richard argue, I do believe there is an element of respect between you and I've never seen either one of you openly insult each other intentionally. Wilson, on the other hand, has just joined and has chosen to immediately attack Richard without even knowing him. What else can I say except, Sara, next time I see you, I'll buy you a drink!!!:)

[Soledad]

Yes, Sara, I think that the issue really is that Wilson was a newcomer and immediately launched into RICHARD.

When I've had my arguments with RICHARD no one rushed to my defense either (though I do recall a number of others chiming in that they "agree with RICHARD 100%"). We can start our own club. :p

[WilsonVB]

“The difference between Islamic Jihad and American Politics is only one person gets hurt when the American's head explodes.”

Of course no Moslem could possibly find this remark insulting could they?

“Wilson, with all due respect, Richard is a friend of many people here and when you insult him, you are insulting us too!”

If “our gang” determines the measure of ‘acceptability’, I suppose there’s no arguing with that kind of logic given that an insult passes muster and truth is made the victim.

Nice visiting PT, but surrender of the freedom to respond to an insult on the basis of a ‘clique’ mentality insults more than simply the slur against Islam, it offends the founding principles found in the American constitution.

Please continue, I won’t be bothering you again.

[Soledad]

Please stay. I agree with your points and have found the info you provided very useful. Everyone with a strong opinion that could be construed as left of center gets into it with RICHARD. It's sort of an initiation rite.

[gini]

Originally posted by Soledad
ES!!. Maybe you should be more non-sensical and talk out of your a** more often. ;)

Soledad, is that REALLY necessary? What have you accomplished?

Great, you played your trump card. Now what will you do?

So your intellectual discussion has come down to this?

Seems to me there are just too many "notes" in this music. The brilliant symphony has gone sour.

WilsonVB take your six posts with you please!

[Soledad]

Originally posted by gini
Soledad, is that REALLY necessary? What have you accomplished?

Great, you played your trump card. Now what will you do?

So your intellectual discussion has come down to this?

Seems to me there are just too many "notes" in this music. The brilliant symphony has gone sour.

WilsonVB take your six posts with you please!

I'm sorry to have disappointed you, truly. You're one of my favorites here. But I don't understand why you don't ask the same thing of RICHARD when he relentlessly and regularly bulldozes through everyone elses' opinions.

[Soledad]

I thought I'd start a thread for those who have actually seen the movie to discuss how they felt about it.

May I remind you all that this was the reason why I started this thread. The notes went sour in my opinion when RICHARD derailed the thread entirely and completely ignored the purpose of it.

[Karen]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Gosh, I really feel very unloved! All the aspersions that have been cast at me in the course of political discussion on here and no one has EVER rushed to my defense! :( :(

You aren't unloved, sweetie - it's just that some of us stay out of the discussion when it turns political, partisan, and not-so-nice! In fact some folks stay out of the Dog House altogether!

[lbaker]

I consider myself to be quite a bit left of center, and in fact the only Bush I want to see in the White House is in the back yard garden of the House my taxes pay for and has roses on it. Sara's political opinions - and Jonza's - are quite similar to mine.. but I draw the line (in the sand that in some places should be blasted into glass, but I digress) I draw the line at infantile personal slurs. Jousting among friends, YES! Comments like "sharing a litterbox"?? ... get over yourself "Wilson". That's it. End of story

[WilsonVB]

“(in the sand that in some places should be blasted into glass, but I digress)”

No you haven’t lbaker, your hatred for what you’re incapable of understanding and support for the use of the nuclear ‘solution’ comes shining through clear as a bell.

“Fahrenheit 9/11” doesn’t suggest for a moment that anything and everything the world is faced with having to “live with” coming out of that “sand” (you’d scorch into glass) should be granted carte blanche. What in fact it suggests is that the greed and manipulation of petroleum interests is intimately tied to that “sand” (read Saudi Arabia). Scorch that sand and exterminate the “problem”, is the solution of the tyrannical and puts you on the same level of those whom you wish to kill. How very “leftist” or is that “liberal” of you!

I can hardly wait for another lecture from Karen on the inappropriateness of “personalizing” comments.

Great little Gulag you’ve got running here! Just chock full of kind gentle people advocating the incineration of millions as a solution!

[KYS]

posted by Wilson: I can hardly wait for another lecture from Karen on the inappropriateness of “personalizing” comments.
Great little Gulag you’ve got running here! Just chock full of kind gentle people advocating the incineration of millions as a solution! >>>>>>>>>>>>

First, this is Karen's web sight. She tries her best to
keep this web site friendly as possible.


2nd, I do not now anything about you and you certainly
have a right to post your opinion thanks to
freedom of speach.
I also think Richard can take care of himself.
But what I do find rather strange, that it seems that
you have simply joined Pet Talk to only express
your political views.
I noticed only 1 post that was not politically
motivated on the cat thread about your kitty Pooka.
I found this rather strange since this
is basically a PET web sight.
If I am wrong, than please start including
some posts about yourself and your pets so
we can get to know you better.

[jonza]

I think the main problem is that Richard's "style" has a tendency to reinforce the increasingly wide spread idea of America as an intolerant and self-absorbed nation. At least for those of us who don't know him, in fact for a lot of people who aren't American. That's sad, as it obviously isn't true. I've got more or less used to it, but consider it very irritating, negative and counterproductive. There is seldom any rational argument or logic in the posts, they are just confusing, rude and offensive to other nationalities. This has often put me off, and I have cut down on my Pet Talk participation exactly because of this.

I'll never forget my first incursion into the Dog House. Here's a couple of quotes from some of Richards replies: "kick ass and take over denmark tour dates have not been given out yet … i'll post them when they become available", and: "just wait a few months and you can state your opinions to the US armed forces, when they come to take over your country".
And from others: "more than I can say about those little insignificant countries who sit on their duff and wait for everyone else around them to keep the world safe".

These are acceptable then???

If Richard is going to be constantly arrogant, sarcastic and insulting to people, why do others not have the right to retaliate in kind without getting mobbed by his fan club? It all gets a bit one-sided doesn't it? Where's the tolerance and open-mindedness that the world needs so much more of? Richard's way of discussing political matters is a very bad advertisement for what the majority of Americans stand for. Don't forget, the Internet is an INTERNATIONAL forum, and Americans are, after all, only 4,54% of the worlds population. We've all got to somehow work it out together, with a bit more respect for our differences. You can't have "globalization" and unilateralism at the same time. That in itself is hypocritical.

This may be an American based forum (and very well run), but I think we should all respect the fact that we come from widely varied countries and cultures, and have many different opinions on the worlds' problems.

Richard - is it worth all these misunderstandings just to get a cheap laugh and a bit of applause from your fan club? Presumably it is.


… and by the way WilsonVB, although it's nice to know there are others who feel so strongly about all this, I didn't notice any "hatred for what you’re incapable of understanding and support for the use of the nuclear solution" in lbakers post. Or are you just being deliberately provocative?

[WilsonVB]

Two wrongs don’t make a right. Two wrongs only make a bigger wrong.

I regret the ‘gulag’ comment and apologize to Karen for this hurtful remark.

I believe our existence as beings is a dynamic interaction and interrelationship between and among all things all beings and all life. In a private communication with Karen I suggested that if we all applied the same availability to kindness tolerance, and empathy toward one another as we’re more than prepared to extend to our pets, perhaps the propensity we often seem to exhibit in offering rash statements in the heat of passionate debate might be filtered through that same sensitivity ‘filter’ we use in our interrelationships with our animal companions.

An unkind or hurtful word once spoken can’t be ‘unspoken’. I can only examine my conscience and acknowledge that this behavior fails to reflect the respect and wonder I embrace for all living creatures. Failing to extend the greatest respect for life, for all life, and for the burdensome experiences people from different and in many ways ‘strange’ cultures must bear hurts us all.

I have not been very ‘successful’ in my few contributions to Pet Talk in furthering the notion of peace and tolerance and I owe everyone an apology.

Please accept my sincerest apologies and encourage each other to kindness love and respect in every way we each can by carefully weighing the impact our words may carry to other folk.

Peace and Respect to All

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
When I've had my arguments with RICHARD no one rushed to my defense either (though I do recall a number of others chiming in that they "agree with RICHARD 100%


But, still love you. I'll pass on the comment that you made about me blowing wind......I had such HIGH hopes for you......I derailed the thread??????? It's your thread, get it back on track.....

Atcheson, Topeka and the Santa Fe.

P.s. you still can come over to the dark side anytime you want.


First of all.

VB Wilson,

Spaulding is my ball of choice. I have played outside setter and back row hitter.....I played a little with a college club team. Come to the net.

My comment was a little jab at the political views of AH MUR I CUNS....It seems that we can't handle a little political discussion without raising out BP, heart rate and sugar levels.

And any AMERICAN should find the same comment I made insulting....MY slam was at the people in the USA who can't use common sense, a little humor and patience when discussing politics.



It real funny when people want to physically attack you for your politics....especially funny when they have a problem with the war in Iraq. I'm not into the physical attacks......as a matter of fact I'll
let you get the first punch in..........

Jonza,
I haven't campaigned for a 'fan club', If anything,you all have contributed to THAT myth....You post, I answer and the funniest guy wins....

Here are a few tips, Lower your monthly dues, try humor and don't be so dour......smile and the world laughs at you.......I think..

DUDE,

Thanks for remembering my "greatest quips"!!!!! I don't hang on people's words....I tend to absorb them and let it go..........
And since we haven't taken over Denmark I think you owe me an apology........

Again,

They are cheap laughs.....have you been to a comedy club??? the cover and price of drinks are outrageous!!

Laurie.

If your political views are so polar opposite mine, why do we get along so well??? ;)

Slick and Gini,

welcome to the club....you too laurie!!


Sara,

I am still waiting for Eddie's picture of Edwina....

I tossed out a wager to you and YOU haven't replied. It was a gentleman's bet, you are no gentleman.
So,
I hereby declare myself the winner and World Champion.

The funniest thing about this thread is everyone is aghast, insulted and opinionated until some one poke a little hole in their beliefs......and automatically it's a personal insult.....lighten up wilson, jonza, and ES......

I've come to admire Soledad......Deep down she has come to understand what the game is.......It's nothing personal, it a little banter and a just and understanding that being different is something that brings people together......

Because we believe what we believe, and respect each other for it, it makes things not as serious.....

I talk outta my bottom and I know it.....It's when you do and don't realize it that gets you into trouble.....the stink gives you away....


I love you all dearly and want you to be happy So I think I will make an announcement that will satisfy everyone that isn't part of my fan club....





OPEN ENROLLMENT

The Richard Marching Band and Chowder Society is accepting applications now!!! just send 12.95 and I'll send you a parchment stating your enrollment. It also entitles you to agree with me on any opinion I state. And with any cash enrollment
you will be given a whit of humor and mirth in your life!!
Toodles!

[Edwina's Secretary]

The funniest thing about this thread is everyone is aghast, insulted and opinionated until some one poke a little hole in their beliefs......and automatically it's a personal insult.....lighten up wilson, jonza, and ES......

Well...I'll certainly sleep easier tonight. I thought you were personally insulting me but....since you have yet to poke so much as a pin hole in any of my beliefs....I guess you haven't!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I tossed out a wager to you and YOU haven't replied. It was a gentleman's bet, you are no gentleman.

Richard...this one is almost too easy....I agree with you that I am no gentlemen so how could it have been a gentlemen's bet with no gentlemen involved?????

[Edwina's Secretary]

and yes....

lighten up wilson, jonza, and ES

I agree with you I could stand to lose a few pounds (although a gentleman would not mention it...oh that's right....)

I can assure you it would NOT be a good thing if Jonza were to lose any!

[lizbud]

Originally posted by jonza
I think the main problem is that Richard's "style" has a tendency to reinforce the increasingly wide spread idea of America as an intolerant and self-absorbed nation. At least for those of us who don't know him, in fact for a lot of people who aren't American. That's sad, as it obviously isn't true. I've got more or less used to it, but consider it very irritating, negative and counterproductive. There is seldom any rational argument or logic in the posts, they are just confusing, rude and offensive to other nationalities. This has often put me off, and I have cut down on my Pet Talk participation exactly because of this.

I'll never forget my first incursion into the Dog House. Here's a couple of quotes from some of Richards replies: "kick ass and take over denmark tour dates have not been given out yet … i'll post them when they become available", and: "just wait a few months and you can state your opinions to the US armed forces, when they come to take over your country".
And from others: "more than I can say about those little insignificant countries who sit on their duff and wait for everyone else around them to keep the world safe".

These are acceptable then???

If Richard is going to be constantly arrogant, sarcastic and insulting to people, why do others not have the right to retaliate in kind without getting mobbed by his fan club? It all gets a bit one-sided doesn't it? Where's the tolerance and open-mindedness that the world needs so much more of? Richard's way of discussing political matters is a very bad advertisement for what the majority of Americans stand for. Don't forget, the Internet is an INTERNATIONAL forum, and Americans are, after all, only 4,54% of the worlds population. We've all got to somehow work it out together, with a bit more respect for our differences. You can't have "globalization" and unilateralism at the same time. That in itself is hypocritical.

This may be an American based forum (and very well run), but I think we should all respect the fact that we come from widely varied countries and cultures, and have many different opinions on the worlds' problems.

Richard - is it worth all these misunderstandings just to get a cheap laugh and a bit of applause from your fan club? Presumably it is.



I agree completely with these statements by Jonza. I gave up
(not my beliefs) but any chance of getting a thoughtful, logical
response from Richard on this forum. I have no idea what persona he projects in person, but his written"style" is very off putting to a lot of caring, intelligent people.

[slick]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Slick and Gini,

welcome to the club....you too laurie!!
:confused: :confused: Where is my 8 x 10 autographed glossy along with a life-sized poster for my wall??? ;)

Oh, and aren't we supposed to get a monthly newsletter as well?? :confused:

[RICHARD]

I's like to apologize to the people on this thread for stirring up the pot....

I like to live on the edge and enjoy questioning the topics.....
and a few other things..

Yes, I am the ugly American......I mean, if people think that already, who am I to change their minds??

I might as well apologize for the US Olympic teams too...

And for Lance Armstrong and all the countries we invaded and still hold to this day.....

One of the scariest things on this planet are the people who are immovable from their beliefs, have no sense of humor or insist on flexing their muscles to prove a point.....I may add that the muscle flexers are the same peace loving, anti-war protestors.....
:eek:


And since we have derailed the thread I think I'll go back to one of MY original questions....


Where are the two articles stating we used chemweps or napalm in Iraq?????????

If it's in a Micheal Moore movie it must be true!
;)



And Jonza,

I'll have to remind you that the Internet is an AMERICAN product......AL GORE invented it.:eek:

I only reacted to your characterization of my beloved country.

again, nothing personal......We aren't all self absorbed and arrogant....You have seen too many Ben Affleck movies.

And to my beloved fan base....

It's not a 8 x10 glossy, it's a dart board....

You'll know I am in trouble when I lose my sense of humor....As a matter of fact I get a huge laugh out of the mirror each morning....


Thank you, I'll be here all week and don't forget to tip your waitress.....

And whoever finds those articles, post them.....I haven't had any self loathing in a while.;)

[slick]

Originally posted by RICHARD
insist on flexing their muscles to prove a point.....I may add that the muscle flexers are the same peace loving, anti-war protestors.....:eek:
:D :D :D A picture is worth a thousand words.

Good night all.

[jonza]

One of the scariest things on this planet are the people who are immovable from their beliefs, have no sense of humor or insist on flexing their muscles to prove a point.
There you go! Something we both agree on one hundred percent!
Try looking down the barrel of a gun held by an Afrikaans militiaman at 3 o'clock in the morning on a quiet country road. No humor in those eyes! No chance of changing his beliefs! Plenty of flexing of muscles! Yes, people like that are truly scary. But that's what I mean, there are situations where humor just isn't appropriate! I tried humility, luckily that worked.

I only reacted to your characterization of my beloved country.
It wasn't my characterization of your country, it was what I see as becoming a very widespread view of America. Sadly.

… again, nothing personal......We aren't all self absorbed and arrogant.
But that's EXACTLY what I was trying to point out. As I said: "That's sad, as it obviously isn't true". And by the way, who's Ben Affleck?

You'll know I am in trouble when I lose my sense of humor....As a matter of fact I get a huge laugh out of the mirror each morning.
I'm like that too, though I don't want to ruin my day by looking in the mirror at all. I don't think ANYBODY who knows me well would accuse me of not having a sense of humor!! My only defense against the madness going on in the world today is my humor. Check out the other threads I have posted on - Dear Phred, Pet Talk Confidential, The Cruise of the Feline Princess etc. And you don't have to tell me about black humor, I was brought up on "The Goon Show" and am a complete fan of Monty Python, Black Adder and similar madness.
There's a time and a place for everything. The serious problems we are discussing in the Dog House do not harmonize with the use of our own personal sense of humor (anywhere else is fine). Keep them for other threads. I have no problem at all with silliness there, in fact I love it, as I hope others have noticed.

Yes, I am the ugly American...... I mean, if people think that already, who am I to change their minds??
I actually doubt that, but are you aware that you might really appear so to people who only read your threads and don't know you personally? Why aren't you interested in changing their minds? Just seems unnecessarily self-effacing to me.

… and by the way, I'm not very good at being the member of any "club", never have been. In fact I've always been a bit of an anti-social loner. I don't even really have a country that I can say I'm a "member" of! I'd much prefer it that way. I'm just a member of the human race. This gives me the chance to fool myself into thinking I can be a bit more objective and neutral in my views. I doubt that it works though. ;)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by slick
:D :D :D A picture is worth a thousand words.

Good night all.

Good Night Mrs. Calabash, where ever you are.

[lbaker]

I do so like it when people "make nice" ;) :D Especially two of my favorites :cool:

[Edwina's Secretary]

I have been very down all day as a result of the direction this thread has taken. I have mulled it over and realized that in fact, I don't have a sense of humor....as defined herein. I do not think it is funny to call people names or belittle them because of their country of origin or religion or beliefs. I don't find belittling people funny at all.

So there you have it. I guess that is why I have never seen the humor in the Three Stooges...cruelty and pain just don't amuse me. I enjoy laughing with people, not at people.

So I'll leave this to those who find that type of thing entertaining.

[RICHARD]

Moore spoke at a horse track near Lost Angeles last night because the head of the college, where he was scheduled to speak, thought that the 37,000 dollars he was going to charge the institution was "too much" and the money should be spent on education.......Now, THAT'S a right wing conspiracy if I ever heard one....Imagine that, wanting to spend money on education!!

He also declined to accept the money that the students gathered, on their own, to pay for his visit.....I wonder where, if at all, the people got their money back..............


I wonder is he ever tossed a few ducats Lila Lipscomb's way...

You remember Lila, She appeared before after Moore's opus premiered....and then disappeared just as quickly-after Moore used her, and her son's death, to promote his 'comedy'.


By the way,

Moore's 60 city tour should net him 2.2 million dollars in fees.



Give me liberty or give me money!!!


What a patriot!!
;)

[RICHARD]

The only time I will make a comment about who won the election.


Hey Mikey!!!!

Que paso???? :confused:

I eagerly await your first post election interview.

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by Soledad
Does anyone think there will be a big impact because of it? Apparently not.

Only 9% of eligible voters saw the movie---overwhelmingly die hard Libs who were predisposed to agree with its contents.

[christa]

I would have loved to seen MM's reaction to the election results.

I mean, he made so much $$$ from Fahrenheit 911 . . . and it didn't sway the vote???

LOLOLOL

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by christa
I would have loved to seen MM's reaction to the election results.

I mean, he made so much $$$ from Fahrenheit 911 . . . and it didn't sway the vote???
I'm sure that there is a film in the works where he'll try to prove that the Bushes and the Saudi Royal family conspired with Osama bin Laden to fix the election.

[christa]

Actually, I read an article on his website yesterday that he had cameras in Ohio documenting "voter fraud & voter suppression".

[christa]

Originally posted by jcsperson
I'm sure that there is a film in the works where he'll try to prove that the Bushes and the Saudi Royal family conspired with Osama bin Laden to fix the election.

WOW, talk about conspiracy theory!

:rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

Maybe MM and Cronkite will get together and explain exactly how karl Rove got Bin Laden on the phone and ordered him to release the last tape....LOL

[LKPike]

it didn't change my beliefs at all or what I think of whats going on. I expected it to make me hate Bush even more, but it just made me feel sorry for him. He started out as just a puppet for his father and now hes a completely corrupted man.

[tikeyas_mom]

i seen the movie, and i cried. I dont want to voice my opinion about this topic to vividly because alot of ppl here are "fans" or "followers" of Bush.... Which I am not......