Issuing an open challenge to pro- declawers

[PayItForward]

I still can't believe that people still do this to their cats, when I can't find one benefit to the cat.

So in case I'm just missing the point, I am issuing an open challenge, to see if anyone can put forward an logic reason to declaw a cat.

The advantage should be for the cat not the owner but I'll be happy to read any suggestions.

I have posted a few common ones, which I think are not good reasons but feel free to add to my comments, if I have missed anything.

PS. Noone has to register or log in to use this section, all comments can be posted by guests.

So if you can think of an advantage please follow this link and post it and lets see if any new ideas arise :)
http://www.piftails.com/forum/upload/forumdisplay.php?f=16

Feel free to post this challenge anywhere else, both pro and anti-sites, I want to know why declawing is only popular in the USA. :D

[CatMama78]

I'm with you. I see no good reason to declaw, especially for the cats benefit. I understand some don't realize what declawing does to a cat and may make the choice in error or in misinformation, but I would hope your vet tells you 'no' in this day and age. When we first took our babies to the vet, he brought up that he would never recommend declawing, and I voiced that we weren't even thinking about it.....I know owners think it's better for the owner and their belongings, but my argument is if the cats possible clawing of the furniture or carpet bothers you, maybe you shouldn't have a cat. Dogs naturally tear things up with their teeth (how many shoes have you had to throw away cause of puppy chew?), we don't remove those do we?! No, we train them, just as cat can be trained with love and positive reinforcement (ok and a squirt bottle) not to claw certain things. And I can't buy the argument that the cat may accidentally hurt you or your children. Keep their nails trimmed! When the claw is dull, even just snipping the tips of the nail off works, it does no harm. If malicious clawing is occurring, please find and treat the real root of the problem.....don't resort to tearing their knuckles out.

[NKBurlington]

As an owner of cats with claws, I now have seen the light.

For years, my parents would have cats declawed. I didn't know any better and had no idea what it really meant to the cat to miss a digit on his toes.

DH and I declawed our beloved Jessie (may she RIP) and I have regretted it ever since. She was never the same again. She always favoured both her front paws and she walked funny. She ended up getting cancer in her toe and we had to put her down. Whether or not the cancer was caused by the declawing, I don't know but suffice to say, we will NEVER declaw a cat again.

Now that we have adopted two new boys, they have claws and have been trained (very well) by their previous owners to use the posts. We have two of them in the house and they do use them. They do not scratch us or our guests and in fact, are very gentle boys.

I don't think we'll ever do it again. it's heartbreaking.

[sirrahbed]

Jenny - I really do not think anyone is "pro-declaw". It is more a matter of not being informed and those who do declaw - do so believing they are doing what is best for everyone, or just do not think. I don't even think it is necessarily a selfish "protect my furniture or my skin" thing. My cats do major damage with their BACK claws. It is just part of having a cat. I don't have any furniture more precious than my cats!! I also have plenty of scars from back claws. Declawing a cat, in my experience - has always been done along with neutering of indoor cats as a means of "pampering" - expensive and never giving enough thought that it might be harmful. The answer is information.

That said - it never helps to make anyone feel guilty AFTER the declaw is already done. THAT is meanspirited and does more harm than good IMO. It does nothing to change attitudes. My cats are all declawed, although I only had it done myself once - to Emily and Eliot - the others all came to me already declawed. YES I feel awful now that it is over and will not get another done! Sometimes I look at their little paws and want to cry!!

So, I think your work to bring information can be, and is, very helpful as long as it is not done with an attitude of superiority - but with an attitude that wants to educate and protect the cats. Those who have already declawed are not bad or irresponsible owners. They just have not been informed and reached the decision in their minds to a degree that takes time. I believe a gentle but continual message is the best way to go.

The arguments given at your site - well I doubt they can be challenged with any logical responses. It will be interesting to see - because, as I said above - I don't really think anyone can be truly "pro-declaw", once they know what declaw involves. There are surely a few isolated cases where declaw *does* save the life of a cat - and these people do not have to defend what they do if they honestly make the decision believing that it saves the cat from being killed. Example: hubby says you can only keep this cat if you have him declawed! Well, then I suppose I would have him declawed so that I could keep him! First, I would try everything I could to stop the behaviors that upset hubby, but if nothing made hubby relent and the mandate continued...I would not choose divorce! Maybe the kitty keeps scratching my children?? But I would surely be very sad and suffer with my kitty, but I would not give my kitty away!!! I guess that also depend on my attachmnet to the cat. I suppose I should put his welfare first, but if he was already part of my family and I could not give him up, then YES I would declaw rather than lose him:( Maybe selfish but my decision. I hope I never have to make such a decision!!!:eek: :eek:

[PayItForward]

This is why I put up the challenge, as I want to know why declawing happens today in America.

I don't believe the answer IS any of the suggestions I raised, they can't be as those are so easily overcome.

There must be something I am missing that explains why the USA population still thinks this operation is good.

There are many pro-declawing site on the web but not one explains why they are pro, so I will be writing to those sites in turn, I hope that as opinions can be raised without names that I can find the reasons I am looking for.

I can only start to educate people against declawing, if I actually understand why it is perceived as a good reason in the first place.

Else I can NEVER help any cats :( :(

PS. Debbie {{{hugs}}}, You know that how I feel but I agree with you, that noone who didn't understand what declawing was when they did it, should be made to feel guilty...ever.

I am upset at those who know what declawing IS and still do it , with out trying alternatives training measures first :(

[sirrahbed]

We have an appointment coming up for annual checks for our kitties. As much as I love my vet - he is the one who urged me to have the kittens declawed as soon as possible - at the same time as their neutering "to save money". He told me he always declaws his own cats - has all FOUR paws done which really shocked me as I had never heard of that!! I told him no - front only. At least I feel a *teeny* bit good about that. My feeling at the time was they needed back claws at least for defense and climbing, etc. His technician also told me that they always encourage declawing. Sooooo...hopefully I can gather the nerve to ask him WHY?? do you encourage declaw??? I want to tell him what I have learned and ask him how this benefits the cat or is it all to benefit the owner (and his bank account) though of course I do not want to be rude - but I hope I can phrase this in a way to get his opinion. He is such a caring and loving man - so I hate to think badly of him - he has done so much for free to help me! But I want to hear his opinion. He KNOWS what he is doing! And the staff technicians - many are catlovers! I wonder if they have to see little toes on trays?? It would be so easy to distribute leaflets to new kitten owners with suggestions about scratching posts, softpaws, etc. That would really be so helpful!! If he wanted, he could sell the Softpaws and scratching posts of good quality if it is a matter of profit and of course he is a business!!

BTW - Jenny - I have NOT seen a Pro-declaw website - could you give me the link/links so that I can look? All I find are anti-declaw sites in google. I would be interested to read the arguments myself!!

[CatMama78]

Oh, I do agree that after the fact, there is no need to make someone feel guilty for declawing as it's mostly just a matter of misinformation or plain not knowing how declawing works, and that's not a person's fault.....esp. Here in America where it's such a common practice......I hope I didn't sound like all who have declawed are heartless, not be any means, and each case is different! As with lots of matters people just continue what they are taught. So we educate others and vets seem to be educating others these days too.

But I do think there are some cat owners out there who do know the consequences and what the act does, but still choose to declaw for one reason or another (not health related), but for kind of selfish reasons and that's when I think those people are not ready for a cat and the trials and tribulations that come with raising and caring for a cat. I would never want to berate anyone, but I am a little passionate about declawing, or rather not declawing. I guess the way I see it is we are the privileged ones to have these beings share their lives with us. It's our responsibility to do what's best for them. I just love them so!
:)

[Logan]

The only reason that I can come up with for ever choosing to declaw a cat is pure selfishness, wanting the cat, but also wanting to avoid any problems with furniture and carpet. I think many people, innocently, make this choice because it is available in the US. I have never chosen to declaw a cat, but I have also never chosen to have an indoor only cat (which is another hot topic for another day). My sister, a real cat lover, has always declawed her cats, regardless of my ranting about the cruelty of it. :( I have friends that have declawed cats, and even my stepchildren have 5 cats in their mother's home, all declawed. None of them have ever reported personality problems with the cats, but God forbid that one of those cats ever gets outdoors by accident. I have found that my Butter and Mimi's teeth are just as lethal as their claws, and I'm not about to have their teeth pulled for my convenience!!! I have the scars to prove it too!!! :o

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by sirrahbed

BTW - Jenny - I have NOT seen a Pro-declaw website - could you give me the link/links so that I can look? All I find are anti-declaw sites in google. I would be interested to read the arguments myself!!

Well, here are a couple, I intend to collect an complete list at some point.... But there is NO fact based arguments in this list, hence my confusion.

http://www.geocities.com/declawing/

http://www.angelfire.com/hero/declawok/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ridge/5451/declaw.html

http://www.spayneuter.net/to_declaw_or_not.htm

http://lagunahillsanimalhospital.com/Pet_Care_Library/Declawing/declawing.html

PS. Debbie, If you dare ask your vet, how much of his vets income results from declawing operations ??
I would be very interested if 50% of income is right or completely out :)

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by PayItForward
PS. Debbie, If you dare ask your vet, how much of his vets income results from declawing operations ??
I would be very interested if 50% of income is right or completely out :)

:rolleyes: <GULP> I will try!:o I am not very vocal but I AM very curious and I AM going to ask him some questions.:)

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
:rolleyes: <GULP> I will try!:o I am not very vocal but I AM very curious and I AM going to ask him some questions.:)

Maybe if we can prove he'll make more money selling soft paws, he might be convinced.

If you need leaflets I'll help !!! I promise to be nice :)

[Randi]

I'm very much against declawing cats and I'm happy that it's not allowed in Denmark - not that I think many catowners here would have it done! :)

Before I joined PT, I didn't know what it entailed. Now that I know, I'm even more against it!! I too wonder why so many Americans have it done - I hope it's out of ignorance! Of course, most will probably say that it's for the protection of their furniture etc., but as many of you have pointed out, there are better ways to deal with that!

PIF, I'm glad you're bringing this up the way you do, I have been thinking about how to go about educating people about it without causing an uproar. Distributing material about what it entails would most likely keep many from having it done. If not, they should not have a cat in their home!

It's just so difficult with vets, who are the ones earning the money on it. Still, in the first place, you'd think that the reason they did become a vet, was to help animals, not make them suffer, to fullfill an uneducated persons wish.

On another note - probably suited for another thread, I think that cats are happier with an indoor/outdoor life, provided that the area around them is quiet (no traffic, no dangerous animals around, and that other cats in the area have been neutered/spayed and had their shots).

I'm aware that many Americans don't share this opinion.

[Amber]

I'm never going to de-claw my cats again. My cat, Maggie is de-clawed. I didn't want her to be de-clawed because I read on the net what it really does. But since i still live under my parents roof, I had too. My parents didn't want everything scratched up. But don't think they are animal haters because the de-clawed her. They don't know, and don't understand what I say about it. They love maggie. and we are never doing it again.
Im very against it now.

[CatMama78]

Originally posted by Randi

On another note - probably suited for another thread, I think that cats are happier with an indoor/outdoor life, provided that the area around them is quiet (no traffic, no dangerous animals around, and that other cats in the area have been neutered/spayed and had their shots).

I'm aware that many Americans don't share this opinion.

Hmmm, I am such a worry, worry wart, I just couldn't handle them going in and out all the time. So mine are strictly indoor. Of course we live in a busy suburb now and we are right off a main road, so this is a good decision for them. I'll be honest, when I hear of letting your cats go in and out, my first thought is oh goodness, I would be so worried. But I figure the cats and the owners know what they are doing.

I went to visit my cousin who lives in the country and she lets one of her cats in and out all the time. I was just a fret the whole time there thinking about the cat. But she swears that cat will bring back dead coyotes, a bit of an exaggeration. I am extremely skilled in worrying about my babies and am pretty protective. Which is one reason I'm thinking having kids may not be for me - I would damage them with over protectiveness!!! If/when we get a house of our own; I've already decided to build, ahem to have my hubby (assuming I'll ever get married) build an outdoor enclosure for them. Although I suspect they will be afraid of it at first. I think they are pretty happy looking out the windows for now :)

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by Randi
PIF, I'm glad you're bringing this up the way you do, I have been thinking about how to go about educating people about it without causing an uproar. ............

It's just so difficult with vets, who are the ones earning the money on it. Still, in the first place, you'd think that the reason they did become a vet, was to help animals, not make them suffer, to fullfill an uneducated persons wish.

I so agree with you :D

I have bought the domain www.declawing.co.uk with the aim of trying to reach those who need it :(

Amber, You are so right, your parents are not animal haters, they just haven't read about declawing and alternatives training. I am very happy that you have decided not to declaw if you have a choice :D

PS My cats are very happy to enjoy being able to go outside but I only allow this as we are in a quiet area etc.

[cubby31682]

I have said this before and I will say it again. When I got Cubby my landlord requires that all cats are fixed, declawed, and up to date on all shots. With Cubby's attitude and medical problems he would never have found a home if he went to a shelter. I took him a knew the rules, I had no choice but to get him declawed. If I had owned my own home I never would have had it done. If I get a house tomorrow, I would rather go to a shelter and get a declawed full grown cat that way if the new cat and Cubby don't get along and if they do get into a fight then at least they both will be protected from each others claws. I will never have a cat declawed again, unless it is for pure medical reasons. Such as the nail grows weird and needs to be taken out or what ever.

If I had to make the choice again I would make the same one. Cubby is alive, healthy and happy. What more can I ask for? He was 1 less cat in a shelter, 1 less cat being pts, 1 less cat that didn't find a loving furrever home. That is my opinion, and I will stick with it. If I had my own home though it would have been alot different!
Katie

[catnapper]

Cubby, I think you are an exception. I know PIF is confused about the widespread declawing in America. In England, its basically unheard of. I know a lot of people here would never fault someone for declawing a cat if they had the cat's best interest in mind - ie: you knowing Cubby would have been PTS if you had not adopted him.

I know peope wouldn't fault anyone for declawing if they didn't know better.... a lot of people have theoir cats declawed because that's what they think you do if you're a good cat owner. I know I did until I was informed.

What gets people in an uproar is when they are educated and then opt to declaw anyway. It seems as if a lot of the people who do opt for declaw are thinking about scratching up furniture and other items - just like Cubby's landlord. In Cubby's case, the landlord is to be blamed for the ignorance.

I honestly would like to know what would possess someone to do that to their cat after they knew what possible outcome might happen. I cannot see the wisdom of spening a couple hundred dollars to save a $50 curtain. Or a $20 blanket. It blows my mind. Put that money into a great cat tree and teach the cat to use that for scratching. Oh well, I've said what I feel over on PIF's links.

[Twink]

PIF--Good stuff! I was reading your first arguments on your site, and then looked at some of the pro-declaw sites (somewhat in a state of unpleasant awe that such things exist). The crux of their arguments seems to be that training a cat (squirt bottles, etc), and/or clipping its nails (or, presumably, using Soft Paws) amounts to a constant struggle that stresses out the cat and owner. Whereas, once declawed, a cat and his owner can have a happy, tension-free relationship, and the cat may “scratch” wherever he pleases, and will be the better for it. And isn’t that worth some “discomfort?” (It fascinates me how people use that word when they want to downplay pain). Just thought I’d drag that argument out so that you can address it early!

Somebody should start an inside/outside thread. I could go back and forth on that one for hours, but don’t have the guts to start a flame-inducing thread myself. ;)

[Logan]

On another note - probably suited for another thread, I think that cats are happier with an indoor/outdoor life, provided that the area around them is quiet (no traffic, no dangerous animals around, and that other cats in the area have been neutered/spayed and had their shots).

Randi, I have been lucky. Mimi, and then later, Butter, have had good neighborhoods to hold their excursions. Funny thing that since our move, over 1 1/2 years ago, they stick closer to home than ever! :) Most of their time is spent inside (their choice), and they mostly go out at nighttime, which makes me feel better for them and for the wildlife that surrounds our home (which they will hunt). Mimi will be 15 years old on the 18th of this month. I must be doing something right!!!! :)

Logan

[Cataholic]

I have never heard of a landlord requiring that kitties be declawed. I have rented in three different states, always with a cat. I am not saying I don't believe you, just that I have never heard of one doing it.

As for declawing. I will never do it again. Monte (aka bad boy Monte) is 9 months old. He has 'four on the floor'. While there has been an occasion or two where I have screamed, 'Monte! No!', it is rare. In fact, the most damage comes from the guys performing their own version of the Indianapolis 500 on my wood table top, or my bed. Lovely tears in the wood, in the cloth. Oh well, I have cats! Cats do things like that. Just like kids. Kids vomit, they destroy, they colour the walls, etc. Should I chop off their hands?

And, btw, lest someone think I am 'all talk'...I just purchased a LOVELY BRAND NEW sofa for USD1500. And, a complementing chair for USD500. Know what my biggest worry is? That Tex won't like laying on this chair as much as the last one (it is a wood framed one, and won't offer the same level of protectivenss). The sofa? That the back of the sofa won't be as accomodating to creating the divets that serve as comfy beds for the cats.

I have quite easily learned to clip Monte's nails. I only wish I would have known then what I know now. I, too, look on with guilt when I look at the other kitty's front paws. :(

[PayItForward]

So how commen is it for USA landlords to insist on declawing ?

Can people post or PM me, if you have heard of a landlord that insists on declawing . Current count 1 for Cubby landlord)

[catcrazylady]

My mother had both of her cats declawed after I gave tons of lectures against it. She was left with a choice by her (at that time) soon to be husband. The cats get declawed or they don't get married. Now I know what I would have said but mom did it anyway. She was very sad the first few days while she watched them in so much pain. I did the I told you so's but it was too late. Both of her cats are doing very well and mom and her new hubby are very happy that they had it done. I now know that no matter what I say mom will always declaw her cats (if there are any more ever in her future). I'm very torn about this as I know that had she not done it the cats would have been turned into the shelter. I go to her house and see two very happy, lovable, and playful kitties that are the best of friends. I can't help but wonder if it's the lesser of two really bad evils. I don't know if these two would be alive today if they had been turned into the shelter.
I have never had a cat declawed and I never will. The shelter where I volunteer makes you agree to never declaw before they will let you adopt.
When I think about moms cuties, Andy and Barney, it makes me think that if that is the only option besides shelter life then maybe it's worth it. I will always preach against it and I will continue to educate but if it was that versus caged in a shelter I don't know how hard I would push against it. I do think it is very cruel and unnecessary but so is living in a tiny cage picking up all kinds of illness's and praying that maybe someone will like you and take you home. Some of these cats spend years in a shelter and that is beyond cruel to me. Some never make it out. If it was that versus declaw I would choose declaw. If I had the option to spend my time in a tiny cell, sick and old knowing that I may never get out unless I had my fingers removed from the knuckle I think I would go with having my fingers removed. I think it would be worth it just to have freedom, fresh air, and hopefully people who would love me even if they were ignorant and thought I need my fingers cut off.
Am I making sense? Please do not think I'm pro declaw because I am not. I'm a shelter volunteer who sees tons of suffering and it just makes me wonder which really is the lesser.

[Uabassoon]

I know that my sisters landlord required that cats be declawed, she lives in Washington D.C. I was quite amazed and pleased with my sister when she put herself on a waiting list at the shelter and 2 months later adopted Nick, an 8 year old previously declawed cat.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by Uabassoon
I know that my sisters landlord required that cats be declawed, she lives in Washington D.C. I was quite amazed and pleased with my sister when she put herself on a waiting list at the shelter and 2 months later adopted Nick, an 8 year old previously declawed cat.
Oh yes I remember your sister kept visiting declawed cats until she fell in love with one...:D

[sirrahbed]

Like Katie's Cubby - there will always be exceptions and cases that can't be faulted. Like I said, if I was faced with an ultimatum of declaw or lose my pet - I would sadly declaw to keep my pet! I also don't see the furniture argument because MY furniture is shredded from BACK claws. My arms and legs both bear proof of back claw damage! I figure it goes with having a cat!! Trimming helps but scratching still happens accidentally.

I keep my kitties indoors because there are too many dogs running free plus traffic. It would be wonderful to live out in the country and be able to leave the door open and have kitties free to roam I would think - but not in the city! This may be part of the reason declaw is so much more common in the US? .....cats as pets are usually kept indoors?? Well, at least the people I know of keep their cats indoors but it is for safety reasons. I also worry about fleas - but then I understand that better products are now available - drops once a month and such.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
When I think about moms cuties, Andy and Barney, it makes me think that if that is the only option besides shelter life then maybe it's worth it.

I hope you don't mind my reply :)

But that if where I get confused it is never a decision between home & shelter...it is a decision between:-

:Soft paws and keep
:Train to a post and keep
:Trim claws and keep
:Give to shelter
:Declaw have no problems and keep
:Declaw have problems give to shelter

Arranged in order of MY perference ;)

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Am I making sense? Please do not think I'm pro declaw because I am not. I'm a shelter volunteer who sees tons of suffering and it just makes me wonder which really is the lesser.
Yes, CCL I am with you here. There are always exceptions - sad, but true.
One thing I wonder about - if I get more cats - do I have to worry about them hurting my already declawed cats??? I am willing to adopt only already declawed and unwanted adults if I need to.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
Yes, CCL I am with you here. There are always exceptions - sad, but true.
One thing I wonder about - if I get more cats - do I have to worry about them hurting my already declawed cats??? I am willing to adopt only already declawed and unwanted adults if I need to.
I hear declawed and clawed cats get on but as you say whilst plenty of declawed cats need homes, adopting them is a viable solution.

[cubby31682]

When I got Cubby, I begged the landlord to let me get him softpaws, she said that was more cruel than to declaw them. I knew it was safer and easier. I always thought that they just pulled the claw out like a toe nail. I didn't know that they cut off part of the digit. I did try, I begged, I pleaded, and I offered to pay more. Her response was A: don't get the cat let it go to a shelter, B: get the cat let her find out that I didn't have him declawed get kicked out and try to find a new apartment, or C: get him declawed and live with the guilt. I choose C. He likes to bite, he always has since he was a baby. Since before I got him. With him jumping at my face because I wont let him 'releave' him self just for that alone I know he wouldn't have been able to find a home. I love my little baby more than anything.


If I had the option to spend my time in a tiny cell, sick and old knowing that I may never get out unless I had my fingers removed from the knuckle I think I would go with having my fingers removed.
I agree, I would to.

I wish I wouldn't have got him declawed, I see his paws and I still want to cry. In my mind though I had no choice at all. Taking him to a shelter was NOT at option for me. I was not willing to let him go there just to be PTS, when I was more than willing to take him and his 'wild' nature on and care for him and love him.

[catcrazylady]

Originally posted by PayItForward
I hope you don't mind my reply :)

But that if where I get confused it is never a decision between home & shelter...it is a decision between:-

:Soft paws and keep
:Train to a post and keep
:Trim claws and keep
:Give to shelter
:Declaw have no problems and keep
:Declaw have problems give to shelter

Arranged in order of MY perference ;)

I so agree with you PIF! I talked to my mother about soft paws and nail trimming and scratching post training but to no avail. I have come to the conclusion (just my observation) that sometimes declawing is done out of pure laziness. There are people who will declaw knowing all the dangers just because it is simpler for them. Everybody wants a carefree pet and cats fall into thay catagory because they use the litter box, you can leave them for several days, and if they can't scratch anything then they will be perfect! I really believe a lot of people feel this way. It is very very sad but the majority of people who do love their pets are not as attached to them as we PTers are. They love them and care for them and meet their needs but they are still an animal in the minds of owners. It makes me sick and I can't understand that way of thinking but it is true.
I really think that a whole lot of it boils down to our over-worked and over-stressed lifestyles. People don't feel like they have time enough at home to do all the necessary training. If they are declawed then they can just come home, snuggle the cute kitty and go on with life. You and I know that some behaviorial issues can come about because of it but some people just don't care. They will deal with that if it happens and if it's bad enough they will just get another cat and get rid of the declawed one. All of these terrible things I'm saying are unfortunately the way many many people are.
Again, am I making sense? I have so much trouble expressing myself. I always feel like I can't find the right words.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by cubby31682
I always thought that they just pulled the claw out like a toe nail. I didn't know that they cut off part of the digit.

That is what I thought too Katie. But what is done should not be regretted. Easy to say right? I still look at my kitties little paws and want to cry - but this is pointless. They are spoiled rotten and loved. No turning back. The important thing is to learn and go on from there right? Nobody has any right to make you feel bad. You did not do anything wrong! You had a decision to make and did what you had to under the circumstances. We have happy and spoiled kitties !!! (((((HUGS)))))

[PayItForward]

Lisa you make perfect sense. :)

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
That is what I thought too Katie. But what is done should not be regretted. Easy to say right? I still look at my kitties little paws and want to cry - but this is pointless. They are spoiled rotten and loved. No turning back. The important thing is to learn and go on from there right? Nobody has any right to make you feel bad. You did not do anything wrong! You had a decision to make and did what you had to under the circumstances. We have happy and spoiled kitties !!! (((((HUGS)))))
Katie,
Don't feel bad for a past decision :(

My aim is to prevent FUTURE declawing, not to bash people who have declawed cats :(

[catcrazylady]

Cubby you responded at the same time I did! I hope you know that in no way am I referring to you. It would have killed me but if there was no other affordable housing available for me and my option was to lose my baby or declaw, I would declaw. You did what you had to do and I commend you for loving Cubby that much.
I'm referring to the majority of animal owners. Not the people who see thier pets as family members.

[PayItForward]

And a big hug to everyone for posting in a logical manner (so far) with no flaming, must be a first for a declawing thread. :D

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by PayItForward
My aim is to prevent FUTURE declawing, not to bash people who have declawed cats :(

oh I did not mean to imply that Jenny! I have not heard any blame at all in this thread! It has been very civil and productive!! I simply heard guilt, which I also feel, in Katie's post.

[catcrazylady]

Originally posted by PayItForward
And a big hug to everyone for posting in a logical manner (so far) with no flaming, must be a first for a declawing thread. :D

Ain't that the truth PIF!!! I almost didn't respond because of how this could end up.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by PayItForward
And a big hug to everyone for posting in a logical manner (so far) with no flaming, must be a first for a declawing thread. :D

ah good - posted as I was posting - yes a very good and civil thread for sure:)

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Ain't that the truth PIF!!! I almost didn't respond because of how this could end up.
:eek: DITTO!!!

[Pam]

I have posted this before on here but I will do so again for those who don't know. Trevor and Andy are both declawed. It was my ignorant decision at the time. All of my immediate acquaintances with cats (friends and family) at the time (1993) had declawed cats. I assumed it was the "normal" thing to do. I really didn't know anything at all at the time about cats. Trevor was my first cat. Would I do it again? No. Do I feel guilty? Of course, but I don't stew about it. Trevor and Andy are loved very much and they are great buddies too. I am blessed with two really terrific kitties. Who could ask for more!

One thing that peeves me is always reading about how declawed cats always have to have behavior problems. :rolleyes: Neither Trevor nor Andy nor any of the cats whom I have known who were declawed have ever had behavior problems. It may be since it was done when they were kittens and they never knew what they were missing. They actually do "scratch" on things with their front paws just as if they had claws. I wonder what they think when they do this. Yes, I am guilty, but it is over and done and I would never do it again to any future cats.

[CatMama78]

cubby31682,

I also wanted to add that there is a definite difference btw. declawing to protect your couch and declawing because you have 2 for landlord or family reasons. It's not ideal, but the way America is about declawing, it puts a lot of us in a tight spot. You did the best you could. You saved Cubby's life, nothing is more precious and you gave him a loving, great home. Sometimes it is a matter of the lesser of 2 evils.

I have to say if it came down to a boyfriend or a husband telling me to declaw or he leaves well I'm a bit crazy, so I'd say don't let the door hit you...you know the saying, I'm also not married so my perspective is a skewed. Reminds me of this skit I saw on MAD TV where this lady was crazy about her dogs and the husband was on the roof about to commit suicide cause she paid so much attention to the dogs. She begged and begged him to tell her why he was in so much pain, and when he confessed, she pushed him off the ledge and closed the window. lol, only a skit and obviously extreme, but we-ell some part of me could relate:D

I wish this country would just outlaw it unless its for medical reasons, like a lot of other places. I just can't get the comparison of we wouldn't take out a dog's teeth or claws for tearing up the carpet, or amputate a child's hands cause they draw all over the wall. My cats have torn me and my boyfriend up at some points (we have scars to prove it) cause we let their nails get to long, but guess whose fault that was - OURS for getting lazy :)

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by Pam
One thing that peeves me is always reading about how declawed cats always have to have behavior problems. :rolleyes:
Yes, you are right some cats don't and that is a mixed blessing.
A very good thing that some cats have no problems, as I wish good health on all cats

But if all cats had problems directly following the operation it would have been banned years ago :(


They actually do "scratch" on things with their front paws just as if they had claws. I wonder what they think when they do this.Part of the scratching process is to scent the object. Your cats are scenting objects by mock scratching, in the same way my cats do with claws...Cats also do this by rubbing the side of their face on objects too. :)

[Cataholic]

Like Pam, my kitties(all 6 of them) have not expressed any behavior problems (related to declawing, anyhow :p ).

I also wondered how a clawed kitty would respond to a declawed household. So far, no problem. Monte is awful, but, it isn't claw related, so as far as I can tell. He is just one bad black boy! He plays with the others, they play with him. He plays with me, and is gentle with both the biting and the clawing....

[catlady1945]

Not this debate again.

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by catlady1945
Not this debate again.
Yes, I will be bringing it up from time to time, until it is banned :)

[cubby31682]

Cubby you responded at the same time I did! I hope you know that in no way am I referring to you.

I figured you weren't aiming it at me. Your statment was about people who don't love their cats like we do. They love them yes but I don't think they love them as much as we love them. We see how special each and every one of them are. We try to be their voice.




My aim is to prevent FUTURE declawing, not to bash people who have declawed cats

I understand. I know this topic wasn't aimed towards me in any kind of way. I was stating my reasons for declawing. I wish so badly that I had another choice besides the one that I was givin. I didn't mean for my post to sound like I was taking it out on you, I wasn't trying to at all. I would love to take it out on my land lord, but for fear that we will be kicked out if I do, I will keep my mouth shut for now. I will complain here in this thread. :p


The important thing is to learn and go on from there right? Nobody has any right to make you feel bad. You did not do anything wrong! You had a decision to make and did what you had to under the circumstances. We have happy and spoiled kitties !!! (((((HUGS)))))

My mother who is against it more than anyone I know, agreed with me. Which was a first for us. She taught me from a young age that cats are priceless and that they need to be treated as such. After her knowing him and me well enough she knows I would never do it under normal circumstances. She never told me what they did. She knows that if she did I would have been sick. She also knows that she is never allowed to take me to a shelter where there are cats with in my sight. She knows that I woudl try to adopt every single one of them. :D

Again I'm not trying to place blame at all. I feel guilty about what I have done, but it isn't because of anything any of you have said. I agree with PIF and everyone else. Ok it's time for me to go get my baby and try to give him kisses. :D :rolleyes: ;)

[QueenScoopalot]

I am totally against declawing cats, but I do have one kitty Abagail who actually NEEDED to be partly declawed as a tiny kitten. I rescued her and her two littermates (and sweet mom) seven or so years ago, and Abby was badly injured on one of her front feet. After numerous vet visits it became apparent that her crushed foot was never going to heal properly. It was sutured, bandaged, you name it....it was all tried :rolleyes: but still it never healed. I brought her in for her spay etc. when she was around five months and actually requested that they do a partial declaw on her badly injured paw! :( (That was sooooo hard to say to the vets). That did the trick, and Abagail has one funky claw sticking out of the middle of her multilated paw, but she finally stopped bleeding after all else failed. :eek: ;) A month ago she started limping for no apparent reason, so I started her up on some antibiotics and all was fine a week later. I'll try to get a picture of a much needed partial declaw....it sure looks funky! But she gets her isometric excersizes and is generally a very happy goofy girly! I'm happy her little paw finally healed up, but I cannot see any logical reasoning behind declawing as a routine. :( Jan

[QueenScoopalot]

Originally posted by PayItForward
Yes, I will be bringing it up from time to time, until it is banned :) And please keep shouting it from rooftops! I posted earlier, but then started reading the thread, and it's starting huh? All things get ugly over time I guess.*sigh*I have rescued several declawed and dumped cats, and my biggest beef is their lack of isometric excercising! Yes they scratch the post, yes, it looks like they're having a fine time, but what about the push/pull motion that God/Mother Nature intended? They are releasing scents while doing these motions, but at the same time their muscles are not getting what they're supposed to get. :( When I rescued Woody who I got a call about roughly 2 years ago, he was living in the woods behind a hospital a half hour away from me. Nurses were feeding him for a while and then he got hurt. :( No one knows if it was a car or animal that ripped his (formally gorgeous plume tail) off, but it was only an infected stump when I mangaged to rescue him. Six months quarantine, and a tail amputation later Sweet Woody was never claimed, but was adopted by his sponsers who cherish the dear boy. I showed Jan& Doug (his adopters/sponsers) how to stretch his front legs out so he could at least feel the enjoyment of the push/pull as nature made him. :D And he is living soooo loved in a condo with 6 clawed kitties. :) I see him every two weeks, and cat sit..lucky me! Luckier Woody the Pooh!

[guster girl]

My cats have always been declawed. I'm not pro-declaw, but, I'm not anti-declaw, either. I'm not sure where my vet stands on the subject. I know she's not anti-declaw, obviously. I plan on talking to her about it, and, asking her how many declaws she's done that have led to problems. She's always been really honest with me about pros and cons for any procedure. She's also not money driven, and, I know that for sure, just because she's a raw diet advocate even though she could make more money selling the commercially processed foods she has there at the hospital. She's constantly studying and doing research on nutrition, and, will fully admit she didn't learn anything about it in school. She's also embraced a lot of holistic practices, while keeping western medicine open to her patients. She's an amazing woman, and, really cares about her patients and their people. :) Like I said, though, I plan on asking her when I take Finn in to be neutered, what her thoughts really are about declawing. I'll post her comments when I hear them.

[carole]

So far this has been a very positive thread, it appears most of you who had your cats de-clawed regret it, and would now make a different choice, that in itself is good to read, some of you are happy with your decisions and have no problems as such with your cats.

I have not really heard of de-clawing in NZ, and I hope it is illegal, I would have to check on this, but maybe it does go on., because of this I have never even considered it, as one just does not ever hear of it being available, I certainly hope it stays that way.

I have always accepted that cats will from time to time scratch your furniture or whatever, it is just part of owning a kitty, Ash has always been great, never bothered but madam Lexie is a different story, she is forever scratching at the couch, carpet, whatever she can find, even though she has great huge scratching post outside TREES, she gets a growling, but thats about it, it is just something i have to live with, as my love for her is much more important than the furniture.


:eek: when I think of de-clawing it makes me shudder, it is like pulling out my fingernails to me.

I agree no-one should be berated for choosing to declaw and this is not Payitforwards intention, I appauld you Jenny for raising the issue again, if it helps to ban it , then I for one are all for it...!!!!!

[AmberLee]

Well, as I've mentioned previously when declawing comes up, I'm personally opposed to it and have refused to have it done to my cats. But... I'm diabetic and my doctor is urging me to have it done. I don't heal well after clawing accidents. Since Cassy and Livvy are maturing they happen less and less, thank heavens.

A neighbor is also diabetic and for some reason their cat would claw him while he was sleeping. He too was having trouble healing and they got Melissande (sp?) declawed. It's not ideal, but it's a huge improvement over rehoming a cat that you can't heal from...

[krazyaboutkatz]

Ever since I've been educated about declawing, I've been against it. Before that I also thought it was okay and just something that you do when you're a cat owner. I've only owned one cat that I had declawed and it was my RB Pepper. I had him declawed when he was about 4 months old. My mom talked me into it and unfortunately there was no one to educate me about declawing.

I know that this surgery was very painful for Pepper because he didn't want to use his right paw so the vet had to put a splint on it. He had the splint on for a few days and the vet said that he had never had a cat need this before. I felt so bad for Pepper.:( I also noticed that his personality changed from an outgoing kitten to a much shyer reserved kitten. He was now terrified of going to the vets too.:( I'll never ever declaw another cat again. I sure wish that they'd make it illegal to declaw in the United States.

He did get along with all of my cats that had claws because I think that he thought he still had them. I also noticed that it was harder for him to climb and to keep his balance than for his brothers Sunny and Storm. I'm so sorry Pepper. Can you forgive me?
:(

[krazyaboutkatz]

Here's a picture of baby Pepper with his splint on his right paw.:(

[PayItForward]

Originally posted by AmberLee
Well, as I've mentioned previously when declawing comes up, I'm personally opposed to it and have refused to have it done to my cats. But... I'm diabetic and my doctor is urging me to have it done. I don't heal well after clawing accidents. Since Cassy and Livvy are maturing they happen less and less, thank heavens.

I know being diabetic can make things more difficult but if your cats start scrtching you again, please PM me OR post there are several things that can be tried including soft paws.

Or only playing with fishing rod toys (toy on a string) means they can not get close enough to you to accidently scratch you.

Although I am very anti-declawing, I have spoken privately to a couple of people about their cats and I will spend time explaining how to train they cats to posts OR stopping them from climbing curtains. I will help if I can.

This is an open plea please ask me or someone else on pet talk for advice BEFORE you declaw your cat. That is all I ask that everyone makes a effort to train. I won't get mean if you decide to go ahead with a declawing, though I'll be upset for the cat.

[PayItForward]

I am trying to write a middle website about declawing. It is hard a I need to reach those you declaw and will do again.

So all stories that are written here or PM'd all help me to pitch a discussion level about the alternatives.

[catmandu]

RB Cats Mister Scrappy , and Fluffy were declawed , whenthey came to me , and when they got lder , they had such a hard time , cleaning , and keeping the backs , of thier tails , clean! I would never do that , to any new Residents!

[jenluckenbach]

Please do not mistake this post for a pro-declaw!!!!

BUT

Soft paws are not the end-all-be-all solution to scratching up your belongings. In theory they are effective, but I personally did a trial period on 5 cats and I was not overly pleased with the outcome.

1 out of the 5 kept them on for a good amount of time with no problems.

4 out of the 5 shed their nails at intervals of about 1 per day and replacing them was a constant battle, 1 nail at a time.

and TWICE I needed to rescue a cat from a potentially dangerous situation! :eek:

(explaination) as the nail grows the cap moves along with it forming a ridge between the cap and the cat's cuticle. This allows the cap to become caught by loose strings or other such material. Both the times my cats got caught it was by the very strong "fishing line" type of thread that does not break. One time this thread was from my bed's box spring (which had no cover on it) and once it was attached to their very own scratching post (part of the carpet used). If I was not present to release them I fear they would have injured themselves trying to escape (because there was no way that the string would have broken).

I only post this because I think you should hear ALL sides of an argument and you should know ALL there is to know about an item that you are endorsing. Soft paws scare me after witnessing these events.

[PayItForward]

Thanks Jen, that is valuble information to consider before trying soft paws.

[Cataholic]

Maybe it is because I feel so guilty about what I have done in the past that I am so adamantly opposed/reluctant to hear the 'it was the only choice' debate. There aren't many people more stubborn and hard headed than I. For YEARS...I said all the stuff I hear people say over and over again about why to do it. I can tell you from first hand experience with Monte..a 9 month, nearly ten month old kitten- it really isn't an issue for us. I think if one tries, is consistant with disclipline/constructive re-focusing, education and persistance, one would see the hype is way more than the harm. Does Monte ever scratch/claw? YES! Is it sometimes on my things? YES!

But, without doubt, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't EVER do it again to another kitty I live with.

[Nomilynn]

I'm a diabetic too, and I have NEVER heard of getting cats declawed because of scratches to diabetics. I have a scar on my arm where Tilly got me once.. why? Because I was stupid and didn't disinfect it immediatly. As a diabetic, I just make sure that whenever I get any kind of scratch, I wash it out with hot water, treat it with peroxide and polysporin and I'm done. It takes MAYBE an extra 4 days to heal. I have only been diabetic for 10 years, but I really think it has more to do with taking care of ourselves rather than making the cats pay for being lazy.. I could have got Tilly declawed when she scratched me, but I didn't.. it was my own fault that the scratch got worse before it got better. I know if my doc told me to declaw my cats because I was diabetic I would tell him to take a flying leap! :p

[Randi]

It's interesting what you say about Soft Paws, Jen. I have considered using them, but never got around to getting some. However, I have learnt how to cut Fisters nails. :) One at at time though - two if I'm lucky. :D

Patience is what cats require!

[CatMama78]

Originally posted by Randi
It's interesting what you say about Soft Paws, Jen. I have considered using them, but never got around to getting some. However, I have learnt how to cut Fisters nails. :) One at at time though - two if I'm lucky. :D

Patience is what cats require!

Mike, my BF always says to the kitties, We're going to get softpaws, kind like a I'm going to count to three before your whooping, lol. But we've never really looked or seriously thought about getting them.

Also with the nail trimming, we don't do it nearly enough, hence the love scratches we both have (but that's our lazy fault). I guess we do it once every three weeks. But it's usually a two person job. He hold and trims (I'm a chicken), and I sooth and scratch and rub and talk to them while he does it. It really seems to help, me talking and petting, while he trims - seems to calm them down. We really only snip the sharp edge off - we both don't want to cut the quick. Then afterwards, the cats can count on a bit of Cat Kaviar or Soft food.

[nibblets]

All claws intact on Miss J!
She has 3 different scratchers that she uses...One is her favorite. Its sisal rope on a board that is supposed to hang on a door knob, but she prefers it flat on the floor. I purchased some good claw trimmers and we sit down as needed and take the tips down a bit. She doesn't much like it, but other than growling and a couple of little love bites to say 'Meowm...I'm not diggin' this' , she endures it. Does she get my furniture...yep, she does pretty well but sometimes a kitty just has to get that one corner of the loveseat that calls to her. Do I care? Nahhh...I don't have expensive or really nice furniture right now, and I probably won't until my son is through school and off on his own. Believe me, the 15 yr old son is way harder on the furniture than Miss Julie could ever be.
I have worked with her to train her to use her soft paws when we play. When she was little and would get to fiesty with her claws I would make a little whimper noise like she was hurting me(well, actually she was!) but it worked! She would hear me and stop. She soon learned to keep her claws to herself. Now if she scratches one of us, it is accidental. I gently nudge her from scratching on the loveseat and she will go on over to her scratcher.
They are cats and cats have claws and they use them...but with patience and gentle persuasion they learn when it is alright to whip em out and when its best to keep them in.

[moosmom]

Johanna,

Believe it or not, when I was looking for a place to live in Michigan, almost ALL the ads in the "rentals" booklet required that cats be declawed!! :mad: I was fortunate enough to find a place where, not only does the landlord not care how many cats I have, but didn't even require a pet deposit, let along require me to have all my cats declawed! Believe me, he is a SAINT!!!

I would NEVER live in a place where declawing is required and I think it should be against the law that it's required in some places.

[lisalee]

I've never had any cats declawed. My family never saw any reason too or myself, mainly because furniture/material things are replaceable. Sash has certainly done his share of shredding to my furniture though :eek: but I could care less.

I never understood declawing to be such a horrible thing though, until reading on many message boards about it. I would have to agree though that I would rather see a cat declawed and happy in a home over being very depressed or pts in a shelter. That would break my heart more.


Lisa & Sash