Diabetes

[boscibo]

I learned over the weekend that Bandit has diabetes. I'm not really looking for medical advice, he's been to the vet and we started insulin. I have found a diabetes specific support board, I just was wondering if anyone else here has a diabetic dog. My biggest problem right now is getting him to eat. He is refusing almost everything, and if anyone has any tips to share i'd really appreciate it. Or if you just want to talk about it.

[tatsxxx11]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear about Bandit's diabetes. But as you probably already know, many diabetic dogs and kitties live full and happy lives:) I've never had a dog with diabetes, but I do have a sugar kitty! After a 2 month course of insulin, he's controlled on special diet alone. I found the diabetic cat online forum to be a great source of info. and support. Fortunately for me, my Mr. B never refused food. I know how important it is for you to be able to balance Bandit's food/insulin dosage. Is he on a special diet, perhaps not to his liking? Has he been a finiky eater in the past? His body chemistry is going through a lot of adjustements too right now and that as well may be affecting his appetite. My advice would be to check back with your vet. And I'm sure those on the diabetic dog site would have a lot of insight on this problem too. I hope all the best for your dear Bandit! I think there are a couple of diabetic dog moms here. Hopefully one will chime in soon! Please give Bandit a big hug for me:) Sandra

[mruffruff]

Yes, I have a diabetic dog.

Bear has been diabetic for over 3 years. There are times when he doesn't want to eat, but I know he has to. I have tried several things to get him started. Try one of these.

Water from a can of tuna
a sprinkle of garlic powder
a sprinkle of parmesan cheese
the liquid from a can of cat food (hard for them to resist)
baby food, meat variety, mixed in
diced, cooked chicken

Bear lost about 9 lbs over the first year just by being on a controlled diet. He gets exactly 1 cup of Hills WD for breakfast at 6AM with a little cat food liquid on top. (I feed cats at the same time). An hour later he gets one cookie, a dab of peanut butter with his thyroid pill and a shot of insulin. At 5PM he gets 1 cup of WD with a tablespoon of yogurt mixed in, a sprinkle of garlic powder, and 1/4 cup of either chopped brocolli or chopped green beans. At 7PM he gets one baby carrot and another shot of insulin.

And I can't forget what time it is, cause he's sure to remind me :D

I was a regular on the Pets with Diabetes board on EZboard until recently. They are a really great group. They can give you a lot of good advise and let you vent when you need to. Unfortunately I can only access the net from work and I have been blocked from all of EZboard.

What dose is Bandit on?

Mary

[boscibo]

Thanks! Yes, that is the board I found. Bandit is going to the vet tommorrow for an all day curve, so hopefully we'll get it sorted out. I have tried a few of those things for his food, but sometimes he just.won't.eat. It is so frustrating.

So dogs really like garlic powder? I would have never thought so. I'll try a bit of that next time.

I'll confess that I never knew dogs could get diabetes. I always thought that one of my cats might (Especially Bo, since he has had weight problems in the past), so it was a surprise to me.

[mruffruff]

Just this morning Bear gave me trouble eating his breakfast! He finally ate after I added some watered-down canned dog food and a sprinkle of garlic powder.

Once your vet gets the dosage regulated, the most important thing you can do is to be consistent---- same food amount at the same times, insulin at the same times, few treats, and the same amount of exercise every day at the same time of day. It can be a struggle to get regulated, but keeping things on an even keel will help.

I hope Bandit's regulations goes as well as Bear's did. A good vet helps. The people at Pets with Diabetes are invaluable.

Keep us posted.

Bear

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/pa54eb7455caa9ac9517287dd8b78b103/fcae234c.jpg

[boscibo]

I am so frustrated. Bandit is barely eating anything. Another day in tears for me (plus I got caught speeding today - $181 for the ticket), I get so depressed when he doesn't eat.

The vet couldn't do the curve - he stayed high all day. I picked him up early. They did a test for Cushing's, and from what I have read about it on the Internet, it sounds like that might be his problem. The test results won't be in for a week, so they upped his insulin to 20 units and I don't think it's helping him. The symptoms are not going away. He has slowed down on drinking so much water, but only a little.

I don't know what to do for him. I try feeding him many different things and he refuses almost everything. Tuna, the Mighty Dog that he has been eagerly eating in the past week, Cottage cheese, hot dogs, baby food...he is not eating it. I finally took out the chicken I use on my salads (the stuff that costs $5.00 for a little package) and he ate a few pieces of that. He ate a little bite of a Meaty bone dog treat - that was it. He vomited this afternoon and all it was was foamy yellow stuff, because his tummy was empty. I am so afraid if he doesn't eat, he will die.

I am starting to wonder if putting him down would be the kindest thing for him. I hate this. Bandit is my first dog. I don't know if I can do this.

[boscibo]

He ate! This morning he ate a whole packet of Mighty Dog wet, and a whole jar of baby food. I am so happy now. Lately my whole mood goes high and low depending on what Bandit eats.

This may sound very weird, but I am experiencing some psychosomatic symptoms. I started giving him insulin shots last Saturday. I give Bandit his insulin shots in the upper back/shoulder area. This whole week I have had a pain in my upper back/shoulder area, and it is getting severe. I have never had back pain before in my life. It may be because of the stress of this all, but I think it is rather eerie.

[tatsxxx11]

I understand so well your fears and depression, boscibo:( My heart sank when I read your first post then I almost yelped with joy when I read your last. (I'm at the library...you should have seen the looks on the faces of those around me:D)

When my Jingles (RB) was suffering from liver cancer, it was a constant battle to get her to eat anything...this was the Lab who would come running from upstairs each time the frig door opened!) On days she would eat, my heart would soar, then the next day, she'd eat nothing and vomit up whatever food she did. Bandit does not have liver cancer, but I just wanted you to know I understand exactly what you are going through and it's understandable that you are feeling his pain, both literallly and figuratively:(

I think the most imprortant thing right now is for you to get a definitive diagnosis. And if you're at all uncertain about your vet's conclusions/treatment, please, do get a second opinion. What has your vet said about his lack of appetitie? Has he given you any advice on how to entice him to eat, what foods to feed and how to regulate his meals according to his insulin dosage? mrufruf has given you a lot of good advice. As said, it can take a while for diabetics to become regulated. I know it's difficult to watch them not be themselves. But try and hang in there, go to the diabetic dog board for support and most of all, talk to your vet! She/he is there to help you and Bandit. I'll be saying lots of healing prayers for your precious Bandit and sending you all my support and lots of postivie thoughts. {{{HUGS}}} Love, Sandra

[boscibo]

Originally posted by tatsxxx11

I think the most imprortant thing right now is for you to get a definitive diagnosis. And if you're at all uncertain about your vet's conclusions/treatment, please, do get a second opinion. What has your vet said about his lack of appetitie? Has he given you any advice on how to entice him to eat, what foods to feed and how to regulate his meals according to his insulin dosage? mrufruf has given you a lot of good advice.

Thanks. My vet hasn't said much about getting him to eat. Most of the things I've tried have come from the diabetes board. I really hope things get straightened out soon for Bandit, this is so painful.

[Cookiebaker]

{{Bandit}} and {{Boscibo}}

I'm sorry I don't have any advice to offer, but I sure am praying that everything will straighten out for Bandit, and that he will start eating properly, and that the symptoms will give way. I can only imagine how upset and frustrating that must be.

:(

[mruffruff]

Bear is on a prescription food. He would LOVE to have Might Dog, but it would create a roller coaster for his blood sugar. It would be better to get Bandit on a prescription food with a little something on top. Usually they will eat once they get a taste of the good stuff.

I know it's hard to get them to eat what's good for them. But they will eat eventually. If you need to, you can feed him dry food as a treat---"sit, Bandit" (a few pieces of kibble), and repeat.

Didn't your vet stress the special diet? It makes a world of difference. Maybe a second opinion is in order.

Please don't give up. Once Bandit is used to eating twice a day at the same times and his insulin is determined, he'll be the dog you used to know.

Mary

[boscibo]

I got some w/d from the vet, but until today he wouldn't touch it. I was more concerned with getting him to eat anything at all. His appetite is definitely coming back! He has eaten what I would call his normal level today - including the w/d! We are still waiting patiently for the results of the Cushing's tests. I hope his appetite stays good, upping the insulin has helped. When I talked to the vet today he said we'd probably have to up it again, but for now I'm ecstatic.

[tatsxxx11]

What great news!!!:D I'm SO happy for you and Bandit:) Fingers and paws crossed that he continues to eat well! Good job, Bandit! Keep us updated on the test results. Hugs to you sweet Bandit:)

[mruffruff]

I'm so glad he's starting to eat! The WD will help lower his blood glucose and give the insulin a chance to work. It might take a week to get the levels down.

I hope the Cushings test is negative or at the very least, inconclusive. Diabetes is a tough thing to handle but from what I've read, Cushings is harder.

Please tell me more about Bandit. What kind of dog is he, how old, etc. Picture?

Mary

[boscibo]

He is definitely eating normally again, even the w/d. The vet is going to order some w/d dry for me, I didn't want to order a huge bag unless I know he will eat it.

Bandit is a 13 year old Border collie/lab mix. I adopted him when he was 4 months old, he and his siblings were found in a State Park in a box one very cold February day. The people who found him brought him to my vet's office, it was very close to the park. They nursed the puppies back to health, and a few months later I was in buying cat food and I mentioned I was thinking about getting a dog...they said they had a nice one that needed a good home, so I met him and the next day brought him home.

When he was younger I took him everywhere with me. We walked a lot of miles exploring the parks and public areas around here.

A few years ago he did something to his back end. We figure he came down our back steps too fast, and he did some nerve damage to his hind end. That was back in 2000, he has had very limited mobility since then. We cut back on his food, but he still managed to gain weight.

He still enjoys his daily walks, and goes out in our fenced yard a few times a day, but these days he prefers to be an inside dog. He spends a lot of time sleeping.

It is so sad, he used to be such an energetic, always ready to go type of dog.

He's been a good friend to me.

http://home.comcast.net/~flaroe/bandit_grass.jpg

[mruffruff]

Bandit is such a pretty boy!

I know what you mean about their being less active. Bear sleeps a lot now, but I suspect that's partly because he's blind. When I ask him if he wants to go somewhere, he's certainly ready. We used to go places a lot together, but not so much anymore.

How has Bandit been doing on his food? Until I was sure he was a Border Collie mix, I was concerned about the 20 units of insulin. But it's within the normal range for a dog that size. If there is such a thing.

Bear weighed 29 pounds when he was diagnosed; now he's about 18. He lost slowly but steadily until the vet said he was just right. Of course, he loses a pound every time I give him a haircut!

I'm glad the vets are addressing diabetes as a disease to treat rather than a death sentence. I hope we have several more years with our boys.

Mary

[boscibo]

Thanks! Bandit weighs about 88 pounds - he's a big boy. When he was more mobile he stayed trim and healthy (so did I), but with his problems getting around we had to cut way back on his walks. He's about 10 pounds over his old (ideal) weight. I don't think he has lost any weight through this.

We're still waiting on the Cushing's test, I did get the dry w/d and some more canned w/d and will switch him over to that food - now that I know he will eat it. It is such a relief that he is eating again - he's whimpering and whining before mealtimes again, almost like his old self. He hasn't vomited for a few days now, that's a relief (now that I 've said that he'll do it tonight).

It is amazing you've been dealing with this three years. That is a long time. How old is Bear? On the diabetes board I was shocked at how young some of the diabetic dogs are. I'm glad this is a treatable disease.

How do you deal if you can't give an insulin shot on time? I haven't had to deal with this yet but it is sure to come up.

[tatsxxx11]

Bandit is simply precious! What a heartwarming story of how he came to be with you. What a wonderful friend he's been to you these many years and you to him:) I'm so happy to hear that he continues to do so well on the new food...even whimpering at mealtime to "hurry up, mom!":D Keep up the good work, sweet Bandit:):):)

[mruffruff]

Bear turned 13 in April.

At dinnertime, Bear sits in his spot and barks when I'm preparing the food for 4. He can hear the dry food being stirred with the yogurt and the hot water running over the frozen veggies. He can also tell when I take the lettuce or carrots out of the refrigerator. Must be a special crinkle;)

When I know ahead of time that he can't get his shot on time, I try to adjust the one before by a half hour. If I can't adjust ahead of time, I let the shot be late, up to an hour and a half. It's better to have high sugar than low; low can kill. On Saturdays, my sister and I go to dinner at 6 or 6:30 and I wait until I'm back to give him 7PM shot, even if it's 8PM. Sometimes on Sunday morning I have to fight to get him to eat, but I that's only ocassionally.

I've been told that I'm lucky he was so easy to regulate and stays that way. I'd rather think it has more to do with being consistent with diet and insulin, a good vet that knows what she's doing and learning as much as possible from the diabetes board.

As long as Bandit eats the prescribed amount of WD twice a day, he will lose weight, too, but slowly. Bear prefers the dry, with something on it. I try to keep the toppings to a minimum, but varied. For a real treat, I mix canned dog food with water until it's soupy and spoon on a 1/4c. with a sprinkle of garlic powder and mix. He likes anything that crunches--lettuce, watermelon, carrots, cucumbers. Of course he only gets a little of these, and not often.

I would guess that Bandit gets about 3 cups of dry per meal or a couple of cans. Bear is a quarter his weight and gets a level cup at each meal. The WD costs $27 for a 20# bag, canned is even more expensive.

As they will tell you on the diabetes board, it gets easier as you get more comfortable with the routine.

Mary

P.S. I don't use a meter to test BG as some do.

[boscibo]

The Cushing's test came back slightly abnormal. :(

I'll have to bring him in again for further testing. He's been really good still with the eating, but he is still drinking quite a bit. He's shown some increased energy in the last few days, the last few weeks he's been so lethargic so I can really tell a difference.

When I feed him (mix the canned and dry) I give him mostly dry with chunks of the wet mixed in, I let him eat what he can until he stops, usually about ten minutes. He has always been a huge appetite dog so I want to keep an eye on that.

I have three weeks free now, so I can spend all day with him and hopefully get him regulated. It has been so hard juggling classes, homework, and him not eating.

[mruffruff]

Most vets will tell you that the amount of food your dog eats will have a direct impact on how much insulin he needs. Also, if his thyroid is at all sluggish, he will require more insulin.

Bear went from 14 units to 10 units after he started Thyrosyn.
Has Bandit had a T4 test?

Mary

[boscibo]

I don't even know what a t4 test is. He's going in later this week for the all day thing, but has been doing well on the 20 units. He's been eating like a champ, although he clearly prefers the canned w/d over the dry. Since he's been on the w/d his poops are so dry - I compare it to horse poop. Must be the fiber?

[mruffruff]

It probably is the fiber. As long as he's not having a problem, I wouldn't worry about it.

A T4 test checks out how the thyroid is working. If the thyroid is sluggish, the insulin doesn't work as well. There are a few different meds that will help. Bear gets 4ml of Thyrosyn in a pill once a day. I put a bit of peanut butter on a spoon handle, touch it to the pill and stick it under his nose. He thinks it's a treat. :D

If his thyroid isn't producing enough hormones, it could affect the Cushings test. Not to say it did.

Hopefully the all-day testing will give you the info you need to regulate Bandit.

How much is he eating of the W/D for each meal? Is he on 2 shots a day?

Mary

[boscibo]

I'd say about 2 - 2 1/2 cups w/d canned and dry mixed morning and night. Sometimes he will leave some of the dry, so I try and give him a larger proportion of canned. He's not getting anything else except 1/3 hot dog (I give the other dogs some as a treat) twice a day. He is getting 20 units twice a day.

[mruffruff]

The amount seems right to me, but I'm not a vet. If he keeps on that schedule, he should drop a few pounds and need less insulin.

Can you switch the treat to something with less preservatives? Bear and two of my other dogs like baby carrots, but Bella won't touch them so she gets a small biscuit. It's tough when you have more fur kids to feed.

I'll be anxious to hear the result of the further tests. Looks like you're on the right path.

(Is it getting any easier yet?)

Mary

[boscibo]

I could easily skip the treats in Bandit's case, I know hot dogs aren't the right choice. But they're easy! And easy to hide pills in.

He was still high today. :( They upped his insulin to 25 units twice a day, and testing again next week. I thought he was doing so much better, but I guess not.

[mruffruff]

How high is high?

The increase in insulin isn't too bad, although most vets go up only 2 units at a time. Bandit is a big enough dog to handle an additional 5 units, especially if his blood glucose is over 300.

I've gotten complacent; I have no idea what Bear's BG is. I just know that he feels good and the vet is happy with whatever it is. Time to get him in for a check up!

Mary

[boscibo]

Over 400, although I don't know the exact numbers. The good thing is he is acting like he's feeling better, eating well, and not puking!

[mruffruff]

Sounds like you're doing all the right things. Now it should be a matter of adjusting his insulin. It might take a while, but you'll get there!

Mary

[boscibo]

Bandit went back in today...they kept him all day this time. His numbers were still high - 416 in the AM and 5xx (can't remember exactly) in the PM. The vet feels that we are making progress, but upped his insulin to 28 units 2x daily. We got a weight on him and he has went from 88 lbs in May (teeth cleaning appointment) to 79 lbs today. April 2003 he was 80 lbs, so he's getting back to normal. He is continuing to be great about eating his w/d, once in awhile he'll leave a few crumbs of the dry, but it isn't much and it doesn't happen often. No vomiting, and he has a much better attitude and livliness about him. I bring him back the beginning of July. We might switch his insulin from the N type to the L type.

[mruffruff]

It's been a couple of weeks since you posted. I've been thinking about you and Bandit. How are you both doing?

Mary