Smushed-in faces & Munchkins

[Enthusiologist]

Well, I'll probably be tarred and fur-balled by some of you but I'm interested in why kitties are still bred to have those smushed-in faces? The poor things have trouble breathing and chronic eye irritation.Yes,some of them are really cute granted, especially the ones that look like Ewoks. I know at Cat Shows the better smushed their faces are, the better their chances of winning are. My Dennis Bubba a pure Himalyan is BEAUTIUL and doesn't have a smushed-in face at all. (See CatoftheDay, july 30, 2000). And also what do you think about those little Munchkin kitties? They're being bred completely to be un-natural and deformed? Tho' I'm a wee bit partial to cats...I feel the same issues apply to dogs too, smushed-in faces, ear cropping, etc., Anyways, would love to hear your opinions and rationals. Many Thanks and Have a Delicious Skippity-Do Dah Day! Ciao! :confused :eek http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
Blessings,
Joyce

[4 feline house]

You've really touched on my sore spot, so sore that unitl now I've never even hinted at it, because I knew "the fur would fly" (thanks, spencer!)

I think any breeding of any dog or cat is a disgrace when MILLIONS are put to death every year across the country. Just today I got in the mail my newletter from the Dallas SPCA. They believe in telling the truth and passing along the facts, and I'm happy (or should I say sad) to share them - during the quarter of June, July, and August of this year, 3,263 animals were received. Of those, 2,273 were adopted. This means that 990 dogs and cats were killed. And this is only one shelter in a city with many shelters for a three-month period. A cat with a smashed-in face or no hair or a dog with spots that cost $200 (or more!) is just as loving and lovable as the homeless tabby shivering in a cage, or a dog who is has been dumped at the pound because he was so lonely he chewed the paper, with only three days to find a home or be killed. Breeding is a wonderful idea - once the shelters have closed down becuase they no longer have a reason to exist. Even so, I agree with you and Spencer that breeding for features that may be detrimental to the pet's health is selfish and foolish. I once worked with a woman who bred Maine Coons. I was sickened by some of the things I saw. She once had to bring a kitten to work with her every day so she could force a tube down his throat to feed him, because his mother wasn't nursing him. Of course, she wasn't fighting for his life and torturing him by shoving this tube down his throat for his sake, she was doing it because the cat represented at least $300 to her as a sale, even more if he ended up being stud-quality. HE WAS NOTHING TO HER BUT INVENTORY. Like you, Enthusi, I'm also very partial to cats, but also agree that the same sentiments apply to dogs. And the ear and tail cropping! Thankfully, alot of vets are educating their clients and this practice is starting to diminish, but not fast enough. I worked for a vet many years ago, but I can still hear every puppy who had its body parts chopped off with no anesthesia. And this is done for no reason that benefits the dog! And any vet will tell you that a mixed breed dog is hardier than any pedigree. Some say that breeding should continue "to preserve the individuality and the traits that are specific to a breed" to which I say I scoop that kind of garbage out of the cat box every day! So what? So siamese are more vocal - that doesn't mean they are the ONLY vocal cats. So German Shpeherds guard - so do many of the mongrels in the shelters. The only exception I can think of is dogs that truly have a peculiarity or talent that is beneficial to man as a whole - such as bloodhounds. And puppy mills are such a horror that many localities are passing legislation to try and put these dog factories virtually, if not actually, out of business. Anyway, I think it's interesting that you posted this, because I had just finished reading the post on "favorite breeds" and started to express my sentiments there - I ended up deleting it and posting something only mildly hinting that breed shouldn't be important because I was afraid I would come across as lecturing and holier-than-thou or something. But I think it is a very important issue, and I thank you for having the guts to bring it up. I hope many, many people visit this thread. Whew, now let me catch my breath!

[Helen]

Put me down as a banner-waving supporter of all that's been said here! The suffering that a lot of animals go through in the name of so-called "pure-breeding" makes me want to weep. The sooner people see sense about this, the better for all animals, all of whom are beautiful in their own, individual ways.

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Helen

[tatsxxx11]

Ahhh! I too, could go on. I agree with everyone and everything posted before me. I have both dogs and cats. I cannot deny that many of the "pure" breeds are beautiful with terific individual characteristics. In a perfect world, with no homeless pets, I would love to own many of them. But the most beautiful cats and dogs I have known are of God's creation! The "All American." Not created by humans for selfish need or preference! Especially when that results in animals with deformities and a propensity toward illness. I am a nurse who also works with dogs and cats every day and from a strictly medical point of view, I am appalled at the condition of some of the persians. Serious chronic nasal and eye infections, respiratory distress. For what? Some selfish individual's idea of beauty, or what will sell best? If you look in the literature, you can see what a persian of 20 years ago looked like, versus today. They had beautiful, "normal" shaped heads and features. How sad. Toooo many poor abandoned and abused beautiful creatures looking for homes. I could never buy an animal knowing that one dog or cat on "death row" could have been saved. The only "pure bred" animal I ever owned is my lab Star, who was a gift from a friend who bred her bitch only once. Star happened to born on the day, almost to the second, that my precious lab x Jing crossed to the Rainbow Bridge. They thought the coincidence was too prophetic and gave her to me as a gift. Even if you love purebreds, check out one of the dozens of purebred rescue sites. You can't believe how many homeless, abused, discarded labs on death row there are out there! I am sure this applys to many breeds of cats and dogs. I recently read of a puppy mill that is attempting to "create" an all white daschund with disasterous results: blind, deaf, body deformities. I say, "Save a life; adopt a pet!"

[Meesie22]

I agree with you all. I can't believe how people are breeding cats and dogs to have all kinds of problems just to make them look a certain way! I can't figure out who is worse: the breeders or the people who support the breeders by buying purebred cats and dogs. I can believe the statistic that 25% of homeless cats are purebred -- I don't think these people who give them up were properly educated in what they would be getting into. Purebred cats and dogs can have all kinds of problems, especially as they age and people don't always recognize that. It also isn't always realized that purebreds can tend to be hyper and have weird personality/behavioral traits. I'm not saying that purebreds are awful and don't deserve to be loved, but I whole-heartedly agree with the comment about how we should stop breeding and take care of the cats and dogs that are already here. My husband and I make it a point to only obtain cats from the local Humane Society. And we also feel the need to adopt the older cats that are there. We have two beautiful cats as a result: Cindy, the white and orange tabby who just is so loving and adoring of us; and Sibyl, a beautiful, all silvery grey cat who has such personality and spirit. All animals deserve to be loved!

[Pam]

Here's a scary thought......today we are manipulating how dogs and cats look and tomorrow it may be our children with what is becoming known in regard to DNA, etc. When will people finally realize that we should leave things alone as they were originally designed by their creator. Sermon over!

[lhg0962]

I'm probably leaving the subject a little bit, but bear with me, please. My daughter had to write a paper for school this week. The topic was "The Greatest Gift". I know now that she has been listening to me and learning because along with adults and children, she wanted no animal to ever be hungry again. Here is what she wrote:

The greatest gift of all would be for hunger and starvation to end. If I could give the greatest gift of all, no child, no adult, and no animal in the world would ever be hungry or face starvation ever again.

This gift would make their lives easier and happier. All children around the world would be full of energy. They could run and jump and would be better students. Best of all, they would have a good life to look forward to. There wouldn’t be any stray pets because they would all be happy and well fed in their homes. And people’s parents and grandparents would be happier and healthier and more loving because some of their worries would be over. By giving this gift, people would face a whole new life with joy and excitement.

I have to tell you that I have tears sharing this with you. I'm a pretty proud mom of a little girl going on 10 years old. We can teach our children!!!!

Best wishes,
Logan


[This message has been edited by lhg0962 (edited December 07, 2000).]

[Jill]

I don't really agree with some of you, pure bred cats are not being bred to be un-natural or deformed. I have a Blue Persian, he has no breathing problems or eye problems. If animals are being bread by responsible breeders they are usually quite healthy and happy animals. However it is very disturbing to see so many unwanted dogs and cats at the humaine society, but that is where I found my "Bello". Not all animals end up there due to uniformed owners. Bello was owned by someone who loved and cared for him very well, but unfortunate situations arise, and his owner died, family members were unable to care for him and I was lucky eniough to get him.
I do agree though some breeders are very irresponsible, they sometimes tend to breed for extreme looks instead of health and confirmation. If you are an informed buyer and do the proper research before buying a pure bred animal of any type "smushed-in face" or not you should never have any type of un-natural health problems. If cats are being bread for certain traits they obviously are not meant to live in the wild like someone else said a cat should be able to do. I hope I'm not sounding too negative, because truly, I am a pet-a-holic.

[trisnic]

I own two purebred abyssinians from a reputable breeder and I can't believe how a few people here are acting towards purebred cats, reputable breeders, and people who did their homework and bought their cats from reputable breeders. This in a cat BREEDS area! I agree that any extremity which produces health problems in purebred cats should not be perpetuated. I also agree that kitty mills and backyard breeders should be eliminated. However, ALL BREEDERS are bad? Everyone should get their cats from a shelter or no where else? Please. For some people being able to better predict a cats personality is a GOOD THING.


Frankly when I went to look for my abys after dealing with four "domestic" cats (when I lived at my parents) in a row that were aggressive and anti-social. My first DMH cat was absolutely wonderful but these four weren't. I wasn't about to go and look for another cat in a shelter that would turn out to be the same way because of poor genetics and/or improper early socialization.

Now to answer the latest anti-purebred post:


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I agree with you all. I can't believe how people are breeding cats and dogs to have all kinds of problems just to make them look a
certain way!
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I agree 100%. A good breeder should not breed any animal if it has health problems or if it is going to produce animals with health problems. My breeder went back five generations and check for health problem and any inbreeding.

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I can't figure out who is worse: the breeders or the people who support the breeders by buying purebred cats and dogs.<BR>
*************
It looks like you're talking about the same thing here - breeders who have no regard for the health of their animals - but no you are talking about ALL breeders as is evident below...

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I can believe the statistic that 25% of homeless cats are purebred
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NO 25% of homeless CATS are NOT purebred. 25% of ANIMALS in shelters are purebred. This figure includes dogs and cats (not sure about other animals). When you ask a person what kind of dog they have usually you ask about the breed, but when you ask a person what type of cat they have usually it's something more like: What color is your cat? What gender is it? That's because only about 3% of cats are purebred. Most of them are run of the mill cats. So the number of purebred cats in shelters is more like 2-3% or so. My guess is that only 0.02% of those cats are from reputable breeders who have clauses in their papers that prohibit giving the cat back to anyone but the breeder should the incident arrive that getting rid of the cat is necessary.

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I don't think these people who give them up were properly educated in what they would be getting into.
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I was educated about my cats that's for sure. I studied abys for 8 years and extensively for 2 years before getting mine. But yes you're probably right. A person who dumps ANY animal at a shelter probably was not properly prepared to deal with that animal.

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Purebred cats and dogs can have all kinds of problems, especially as they age and
people don't always recognize that.
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No they don't and I agree, purebred animals (especially dogs) CAN HAVE HEALTH problems. But animals from reputable breeders who test and screen for health rarely do. I'm not going to say it doesn't happen because it does but it's probably just as or less common then in a "mutt" animal. I don't understand how personality "problems" which are usually evident if anyone studies a breed are problems at all.

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It also isn't always realized that purebreds can tend to be hyper
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Not all purebreds are "hyper"! Only certain breeds generally are.

My cats can be "hyper" and what I mean by this is that they are extremely active they bounce off of walls etc, I don't mean that they are high-strung (meaning tense, nervous, or easily upset) or anything.

My cats are very active but then they are abys, that is part of their breed description. I knew what I was getting into when I got them. I like them being "hyper". It makes them really fun to be around. Now if you don't want your stuff wrecked don't get an aby, if you don't want a cat that will walk on the counters don't get in aby, if you're not prepared to play with your cat for at least 45 minutes a day don't get an aby. People should study their breed of choice before they go and buy a purebred animal.

*************
and have weird personality/behavioral traits.
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So what? Isn't that normally a good thing? I like the fact that my cat, Cairo, attacks broccoli for example. My cats have strange quirks but don't all cats? Purebred or not?

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I'm not saying that purebreds are awful
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Well it certainly sounds like you're saying that. It sounds to me like you were saying "mutt" animals are completely BETTER then purebred animals. I would NEVER say that purebreds were BETTER then shelter animals its just that I didn't want to gamble again when getting my next cat.

*************
and don't deserve to be loved,
but I whole-heartedly agree with the comment about how we should stop breeding and take care of the cats and dogs that are already here.
*************
Well that is your opinion and you are honestly free to it. However it looks like you are trying to tell OTHER PEOPLE what to do.

I for one am so sick of having people say "Your cats are inferior, you are a bad person, you're selfish, you should feel ashamed that you supported an evil breeder instead of adopting a shelter cat" and even "You hate cats"

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My husband and I make it a point to only obtain cats from the local Humane Society.
And we also feel the need to adopt the older cats that are there.
*************
Well that's good and it is your choice, but not everyone will choose to take this route and that is their right. It does not make them a bad person.

*************
We have two beautiful cats as a result: Cindy, the white and orange tabby who just is so loving and adoring of us; and Sibyl, a beautiful, allsilvery grey cat who has such personality and spirit.
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It's good that you have run into such good luck with shelter animals because I have run into nothing of the sort. Four out of five cats being anti-social and aggressive. These cats were from two rescues and three from people who didn't bother to get their cats spayed. The rescue cats are the worst in the aggressive and anti-social regard, one we adopted because she was going to get her head blown off with a gun by her "loving" owners and the other we adopted from the SPCA as a kitten.

In my opinion people who don't bother to get their cats spayed because "it's too expensive" or because they can "always find homes" are the true culprits NOT the reputable breeders.

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All animals deserve to be loved!
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Well I pretty much agree with you there.

[This message has been edited by trisnic (edited December 10, 2000).]

[AdoreMyDogs]

I have 2 dogs, one of them is a pug. I can't understand how a pug could come from a wolf! What in Gods name made someone want to have a dog with a face so smashed that it can't breath without "snorting"? I just don't understand that. I love her, I would not give her up for anything in the world, she's my little bundle of goofiness, but what on earth made someone want to breed for a smashed, unhealthy look that the pug carries? I can't really do much with her outside because she's just not built for much running, extreme cold, heat, humidity and the list goes on. I just don't understand why a breed would be created with such health and breathing problems to begin with, either dog or cat. From what I have heard and read when I was studying up on the breed before I adopted my pug, they rarely even have natural births...they have to have c-sections because of the way they are built. That's VERY un-natural and sad. Humans sure have messed with animals for the "perfect look" havent they? Anything from hairless mutations, extreme size, smashed faces, to surgical mutations (docked tails and cropped ears of certain dog breeds). I just don't get it.

[Karen]

Okay, folks, everyone take a deep breath. Remember, we are all here because we love animals, and cats in particular in this section. I don't think you can generalize about any group of humans (breeders) OR any group of animals without risking hurting people's feelings. I think everyone would agree that we all want what is best for each individual animals, which includes a loving home, healthy genes, and people who know and love them for the kitties they are, right?
I have known some loopy, weird purebreds, and some sweet, loving, cuddle-muffin-type shelter kitties, and vice versa just as equally. Gotta love 'em, and keep them all safe and happy, right?

[4 feline house]

I think what it really boils down to is there are two types of people in this world - NOT those that patronized breeders and those that don't; but, those who have volunteered in animal work and those that haven't - when we see how many throw-away animals are destroyed every day we get passionate about population control. I too, have seen too many people who are more interested in a decoration or a status symbol than loving and protecting a living being (just because they aren't "human beans" doesn't mean they aren't "beans"). I doubt any of the people posting on this site are that type, but those type people are others that slant the 'to breed or not to breed' issue into a more passionate subject for some people. And, whether or not you agree, some of us on both sides of the issue are just trying to get the humans to be better husbands of the animals like God commanded us to do, and that's why passions flare.

[This message has been edited by 4 feline house (edited December 10, 2000).]

[Troy]

There is nothing wrong with Purebred animals of any species - what I think we are really talking about is "Designer-Bred" animals that are changing the way nature evolved certain sub-species' features.

Siamese cats are naturally defined breeds and do not have health problems - well, until breeders decided they should look thin and pointed. When I was in Thailand (not so recently) I was trekking in areas where there were wild Siamese cats around. These cats were nothing like todays designer-bred Siamese - they were all quite "full figured" with roundish faces and traditional colouring. In fact, they looked like Burmese cats with Siamese colourings - This is how these animals are in the wild. This is how I would like to see them stay.

I am only making these comments in relation to natural breeds, not man-made breeds.

Lots of opinions coming from passionate people - it is good to see people care about our furry friends.

[trisnic]

Spencer I want you to know that if you thought I was targeting you at all I was not. None of your messages offended me. I'm not offended that people choose to rescue cats or choose to promote shelter cats. This time around, however, I did not want to adopt a homeless cat I wanted to try out a purebred instead because of my last bad experiences. I had such a bond with my first cat who was a DMH and I did not find a bond even slightly similar with another cat, until now. I searched for a good breeder for 1 1/2 years before finding one. I'm just sick of reading from people all over the web, not just here, about how I'm such a bad person and my cats are inferior.

I do believe you that 25% of cats in shelters resemble a breed. My boyfriends mother had a male Himalayan which she let roam. She did not neuter him. He "disappeared" after a year of living outside, being fed cheap dog food. She got him from a friend for $10. I don't believe that this friend was a responsible person because if they were they would NOT have given a cat to this woman. My bfs mother also wanted us to ignore the contract that we signed and let our cats roam and have a litter because all females need one litter. Uggg! We spayed them promptly at six months old.

Needless to say her cat probably helped to create some litters which may have been dumped at a shelter. I don't doubt that the babies could have resembled Himalayans or that the babies babies could also resemble Himalayans.

Also one of my parents cats looked just like a Mainecoon even though her mother was definately a DSH.