Why make the choice to not have children?

[Sirrahsim]

Every since I was a wee little girl I've wanted to be a mother. I'd push my cat RB Ernie around the house in a baby carriage and dress him up in baby clothes. Now that I'm married I look forward every day to when I have my first baby:) My husband I have made the decision to wait several years, as we've only been married a little over one year now, but the simple fact remains that we can't wait to have children!

I don't understand why some people do not ever want to have children? This is not meant to be a debate, I'm just curious about the views of the "other side". From the beginning of humanity it has been human nature to procreate, and that is why it is completely unfathomable to me that anyone would decide to give up their option of having children. Can anyone help me understand? I am not being argumentative, I am genuinely baffled!

[popcornbird]

Because of the torture you go through during pregnancy and child birth scare me! :D :p

He he.......just kidding. I do think I want children when I'm older and get married. I don't think I want too many, but at least two. I used to LOVE babies when I was a little girl.......I thought they were the cutest things. Then, when I hit my teens, I met some very *crazy* little kids that I simply couldn't tolerate being around. It was like they were born to drive you crazy. I guess I can say, when I was around 13-16 years old, I constantly said *I don't want kids*, whenever I would have an experience with annoying ones. I didn't really *mean it*. Maybe an immature statement due to my age at the time, and issues with certain young children.

Now, when I think about it, I really believe its the upbringing of a child that makes him/her the way he/she is, especially when they are young. I know there are exceptions, but in general, the bad bratty kids are the children of people who really don't pay attention to them, or spoil them way too much. I noticed that parents who spend time with their children and raise them properly have some of the sweetest kids you can imagine. I think some babies are absolutely adorable. I think I would like to have some when I'm older. I'm not crazy about children........and honestly, I don't even like most kids, but kids love me for some reason, and I think I would want a little girl at some point in life. As of now, I don't even want to think of it, but I can't say I don't want kids period. Pregnancy/child birth scares me, but if all women can do it, maybe I can too. :p He he. I've never exactly thought too deeply about wanting children. I don't have any desire for kids right now, but I am still young. Maybe I will have that maternal desire when I'm older. Maybe...

[guster girl]

I never wanted kids, either. I remember in high school, when girls would bring their babies or their baby siblings into the classroom, and, the girls would literally FREAK out! I never wanted to hold them, couldn't care less if I got to see them, or anything. I even got married, and, didn't want kids right away. I've never had the desire. For me, it's not really a conscious decision. I am a very "motherly" person to my pets, though, so the instinct is there, I guess. I remember meeting a little four year old (maybe 5) girl in Washington when I was about 18 or 19. She was such a brat, she didn't like me. I didn't like her. But, my husband and I were friends with her parents. So, I got stuck watching her once. I told her dad, she's not going to like this. He said she will get over it. And, an hour later, we were in love. Britney and I were inseparable for the two years I lived in Olympia, and, I kept in touch with her family for several years. I regret not keeping better contact, because that little girl was just amazing. So, meeting her opened my heart up a tad for the idea of having kids. and, there are a handful of children that I like a lot. For the most part, the desire is still not there. I could just as easily be with someone for the rest of my life and never have kids as I could meet someone and have two or three. It's really dependent on the person. I'm indifferent. Kids love me, though. I have never faked it with them, I act no differently with kids as I do with anyone else. But, I also have a knack for acting like a kid if put into a childlike situation. I'll get down on the floor and roll around with a five year old, no problem. :) I hate baby talk, though, I can't do it. I can't talk to a five year old like a five year old talks to me. It drives me batty when people do that. I used to have full (albeit one sided) conversations with my niece when she was little. :) I do know, though, that if I had a baby, it would be such an amazing experience, that nothing would ever compare. And, if there were ever a human that loved me even half as much as I love my mother, WOW. But, again, I don't think I'll feel incomplete as a woman if I don't ever have kids. Sorry for the length of my response. :)

[GoldenRetrLuver]

I can't really give you much more straight of an answer; I just don't like kids. Period. No offense, but they just don't 'appeal' to me. Even when I was a *wee* little girl, I had no interest in babies, just animals; according to my parents. :)

[Miss Meow]

I've never had a maternal instinct.

I have just turned 34 and have absolutely no desire to raise children. There's no specific reason; it's just how I feel deep inside, like you do when you know that you want kids - I'm just the opposite.

I'd be horrified if I got pregnant. I don't mean that in a nasty way, but I just have no desire to raise a child. With that attitude, it's best if shaping young minds is left to those who want children :)

[slick]

When I was 17 I knew that I didn't want to have children. I can't really tell you why. I guess I just didn't have the maternal instinct for human babies. I can honestly say that all my life I really didn't and don't like human babies. I thing it's just something that's lacking within myself. That's not to say that when a friend of mine shows me her baby I don't go goo-goo-gaa-gaa but it's not the same as when I see a dog or a cat. Animals just fill my heart in a way that humans can't.

I'm 51 now and have never regretted my decision not to have children. Children do not make you whole as a person.

[CathyBogart]

I've known since I was a little girl. I don't really know *why*, I've just always known. Even as a child myself, I always told my mother that I wasn't having kids. I had few friends growing up, at least partially because I grew up very quickly and was unable to relate to most of the other kids....and I actually felt disdain for a lot of the behavior I saw in my peers (And I still do as a matter of fact!).

Babies give me the chills, much in the same way that many people here get creeped out by spiders or snakes. Every time I see a young baby, something inside me cringes, and sometimes it even makes me feel queasy.

I'm 19, and at the stage now where everyone is telling me "you'll change your mind". Yet...since I've known this my entire life, and I've spoken to many people through No Kidding! who have had the same experience, I no longer dread that they may be right.

(Besides, my maternal instinct is defective....I swoon and squeal over a litter of baby scorpions, but the sight of human babies makes my skin crawl. Go figure.)

[jenluckenbach]

I don't understand why some people do not ever want to have children?
I had the sterilization operation at 20 years of age, just before I married Charlie. I KNEW, kids were NOT for me.

WHY??:
I do not have patience
I am not comfortable around children of any age
I am not willing to change my life THAT much for another person
The commitment is too great
Children brought up by parents that are less than devoted turn out as LOUSY human beings, so why would I want that??

I think you get the idea.

[Pam]

This is an interesting thread and something I have wondered about as well. Although I am one of those who couldn't wait to have children and just love my kids and grandson to death, I know there are others that are just not 'wired' the same way that I am. I think it's wonderful that people who don't wish to have children know that way in advance and don't cave into pressure from family/friends. That would be a disaster all around for everyone. Good thread idea!

[Vio&Juni]

There was a thread on this topic a while ago.

I want to have children, very much, but not in the way that if I didn't, I couldn't live with this! As I don't believe in God and in the life after (there was a discussion on this topic too), I see a continuation of my being only in the life of my cells, life in general in plants and other stuff and a continuation of my human life and to the civilization, to which I contribute, in a child. I can't say I love every baby or every child, but I know that I will love my baby or babies. It is very much like when you take a pet in, you can't say you love it from the very first moment, but it becomes so dear to you as you live with it. Even when it shreds your furniture :)

[anna_66]

Ok, now I'm on the other end of the spectrum. All I wanted as a young girl was to grow up, get married and have children. I had no other amition in life but to raise a family. And still to this day I feel the same way. But unfortunately I'm not able to have children.

I think it's wonderful that those of you who don't feel like you want children either wait, or don't have them at all. I agree with Jen when she said Children brought up by parents that are less than devoted turn out as LOUSY human beings, so why would I want that??
.

This is a very good thread. I wish more people would think before they mess around and get pregnant. Nothing makes me madder than when someone is having a baby they didn't want & don't take care of them.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

I am on neither side..

I know i am not ready to have children.. and i would not be mad if it happened.

Me and Eric are not trying .. AND NOT PLANNING ON TRYING.. but we would consider it a blessing if i did get pregnant.

Either way a few years back when my sister and friends were getting pregnant and having babies.. my maternal instincts were in HIGH gear and i really really really really wanted to have a baby..

BUT now i am glad we haven't had any and I realize I am not ready... it wouldn't surprise me if we never had children.. but whatever the Lord's will is, that is what I want.!!:)

[Denyce]

*shrug* I too have never liked babies. I am not comfortable around them, I don't like baby smell and they scream when someone insists I hold them. Most likely they sense my discomfort. I never played with dolls as a child. I have never ever wanted children. I used to have nightmares about being pregnant.

But yes...children also seem to like me. Once they are past the whole diaper thing I am better with them. But I don't speak to them in baby talk either. I find that degrading to the both of us. I used to give children lessons in riding and they loved me...but I was strict and had rules and they had to stick to them or they were out. Period...no discussion.

I luckily found a man who doesn't want children anymore than I do. I am very nuturing and maternal...just not with children.

All I have to say is bless us who don't want children...for more reasons than I can go into on this thread;);)

[Logan]

I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from many of the responses here. I ALWAYS wanted to have kids, and lots of them! My first husband was not that way. When we finally did agree to have a baby, after 6 years of marriage, and I was 8 months pregnant with Helen, I remember him saying to me that if it had been totally up to him, he would have chosen to have no children. :eek: I'm sure he doesn't remember saying that, and he would regret having ever said it if he did remember it. I NEVER forgot those words coming out of his mouth, though, as I sat there, looking like a whale, so excited about the new baby. Maybe that was the beginning of the end for us. :( Anyway, we have a lovely 13 year old now, and she is the apple of both of our eyes. He has turned out to be a terrific father to her, even though we are no longer married. The only thing I regret is that I was never able to have more, and now I'm too old! But I got two more when I remarried last year, just "grown" ones instead of infants.

I love children, and they are our future. But I applaud those of you who are wise enough to know that a child is not what you want or need, and are taking the precautions to make sure you don't have one.

[catnapper]

I don't know how to explain or define it. As far as I can remeber, babies and young children have never held any fascination with me. In highschool, I'd dream of meeting a man with kids and marrying him and raise his kids as my own... hee hee... thats what I did! I love my step kids more than I'd ever imagine. The job of raising step kids is VERY hard because underneath, everyone knows that I am not their mother.

As for young kids and babies, thats not something I have the temperment for. I get chronic migraines and am oftern bedridden for a day or two. Having a baby... well that luxury is not there. you have to function even though you feel like dying. Thats selfish on my part, but also honest to admit I'd not be able to deal with it. And the midnight feedings/diaper changes would not endear me.... I like my full 8 hours. :D

My nieces and nephews drive me nuts with their whining and screaming. Sure, they are cute. But they drive me out of my mind thinking farting is funny, or "mooooommmmm, she's looking at me!" I guess I'm an old person trapped in a young body. i don't know. I realate so much better to my teenaged step kids than any young child.

But all that said, I guess that I've been formulating this opinion since I was 16. Thats how old I was when the doctor told me that having a baby would be difficult if not impossible. I guess upon hearing those words, I trained myself into thinking I didn't want a baby.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I'm in the group who have never really liked kids and don't feel comfortable around them. In high school all my friends were making spending money by baby sitting, and I just didn't "see" it. I did babysit a few times and was miserable the whole time, just sitting there waiting for the parents to come home and take me home and get me out of my misery.

However, even after saying all that, after high school I was still of the mind that I would get married and have babies. My plan was that I wanted to be married a few yeas before having the first one. I wanted to have 3 of them and have them all by the time I was 30. Sorry, no offense to anyone, but I can't see being 60 years old and having a teenager on my hands - ugh. So anyway, that was my plan for kids. The biggest problem was that the first step was to get married, and here I am 42 years old, and that still hasn't happened! :rolleyes: ;) :D And I've never had the maternal instinct strong enough to say that I want a baby no matter if I'm married or not. Then, by the time I was in my mid 30's, I knew there would be no kids in my future because I was too old (see statement above about teenagers at 60). Theeeenn I met Terry and he has no kids either, and has no desire for them (x-wife was pregnant and had a mis-carriage long time ago. He contributed it to agent orange in Vietnam so he didn't want to take a chance again) so we have two kitties as our kids - and that's just fine by the both of us.

Another however, I did tell him when we first started dating that no, I didn't want kids, but if I were to get pregnant there was no way I was having an abortion, so if that happened, we were having a kid whether we liked it or not. Of course I know we would both be great parents if it did happen, and we would both love the little snot to no end, but by this time, if it does happen it's pretty much a miracle and obviously really meant to happen, and I think I'll just leave it at that. ;)

Oh, and one last reason I don't want them is I think I'm just way too selfish. I am not one to live my life for someone else, and I think that's the way you have to do it if you have kids. So many of your decisions are made based on their needs instead of your own. I guess I'm not willing to give myself up that much.

[neko1]

I have no desire whatsoever to have children. I do not like children, even when I was a child I didn't like kids. I have no patience for them, and yes I am selfish too, I like my sleep, my time, my things. Screaming, whiney kids give me a headache. I don't find babies ultra-cute, they're just there to me. Now on the other hand, if I saw a dog or cat, I'd be smiling and happy. My cats are my kids and that's enough for me.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Jen...you have been in my head! Those are exactly the reason I have chosen to be childless...(CBC...childless by choice.) One other as well....I knew I would not be a good mother. I believe parenting to be the most difficult job around. Just as I do not have the skills to play the piano, I do not have the skills to parent a child. I also think more people should think long and hard about whether they have those skills and WHY they want children. I see way too many people who have children who don't appear to be doing a stellar job of parenting.

A friend of mine reminds me that at 12 I announced I would not have children. I have changed one diaper in my life and that is enough. When people ask me if I "want to hold the baby" I am baffled as to why I would want to do such a thing.

I'm willing to settle for my immortality to be a park bench somewhere that has my name and invites the passerby to sit a while, I've got no place to go!

[ILoveReptiles]

Well I am another one in the crew that just doesn't care for children at all. I especially do not like babies. Just looking at a baby makes my skin crawl. I don't care for that sour milk/vomit smell that always seems to eminate from their bodies, nor can I tolerate the sounds they make.

My reptiles however, I simply adore, and fawn over all the time.

Squealing bratty kids drive me up the wall, and the first thing I want to do is run in the opposite direction. I don't like it when kids stare at me, I get extremely annoyed.

Kids just aren't for me. I don't have the patience to deal with them, and I just don't like them. Period. I am also not willing to give up the time, money, and energy required to raise a child to adulthood. I have alcoholism on both sides of my family as well, and that's a risk I also don't want to take, as alcoholism is genetically passed on. I've seen what my parents and sister are going through from it and to that I say - no thank you - I don't want to deal with that.

The way I see it - if you don't want to be a parent, you shouldn't be one - and nobody should even think they have the right to try to goad you into it.

Thinking back, I don't recall there ever being a time that I liked kids - even when I was one myself. I didn't like any of the kids that I went to school with - I thought they were heartless and cruel. I do remember the days before I stumbled upon No Kidding - when I believed that I didn't have a choice, that one day I would have children whether I liked it or not. I was horrified by the very idea, but I had been brainwashed into believing that it was my place as a woman, and that was how my worth in society would be measured. You can imagine my relief and happiness when I discovered NoKidding, and found that I DO have a choice. It wasn't long after realizing this that I scheduled my Tubal Ligation.

There's also the fact that given the sheer number of human beings on the planet right now, and the fact that the earth is far beyond its carrying capacity to sustain life for the long term, I thought it best that I not add to the problem. I also get annoyed when people try to tell me that there IS no population problem. They couldn't be farther from the truth. And preaching that god will provide somehow just doesn't fly too far with me. Then again, I'm a self-proclaimed Agnostic, whom at this point is bordering on Aethism, so in that respect, I have my own opinions. That is a whole other topic though.

I'm 30 now and I got sterilized when I was 29. It was the best decision I ever made in my life. I hope this answers your question.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Tubby & Peanut's Mom
Oh, and one last reason I don't want them is I think I'm just way too selfish. I am not one to live my life for someone else, and I think that's the way you have to do it if you have kids. So many of your decisions are made based on their needs instead of your own. I guess I'm not willing to give myself up that much.

Hey now, that's not selfish at all! That's just you living your life how you want to...which is the same thing a good parents does...the life they want to lead includes children, so they go for it! :)

I'm trying to find the better list, but here's a quick list of some of the top reasons people choose to have kids. (I'm not applying this to anyone here, I know there are a lot of people here who had kids because they genuinely wanted them and wanted the experience of raising them, and that's what the world needs more of!)

1) They want an heir.
2) They want to carry on their family name.
3) They want a miniature version of themselves.
4) They want someone to take care of them when they're old. (even though now this rarely ever happens)
5) They want a second chance.
6) They need children to fulfill their lives somehow.

Note that all of these start with "they want". I'm very frustrated that I can't find the other list, but it listed some of the reasons people chose not to have children and it looked something like this:

1) The world is too overpopulated already.
2) They don't feel they would be able to provide adequately as a parent.
3) They feel that the world today is not a good place to bring a child into.
4) An inheritable disease runs in their family.
5) They grew up in an abusive situation, and are afraid they would continue the cycle.
6) They don't have a partner to help raise the kids.

Now, there are those Childfree like myself who would be classified as "Evil child-haters" most of the time, but the vast majority are not. Heck, I can think of four childfree folks off the top pf my head who are teachers, and LOVE their students, but at the same time are grateful to let them go home at the end of the day.

[ramanth]

I'm on the side that has this 'maternal' instinct and I hope someday I can have kids. :)

It really stings though when the subject is brought up and someone is like, "Oh I hate kids. Why would you want to have a baby?" and look at me like I'm going to give birth to a lethal virus. :(

I respect others decision to not want to have children... could you at least offer me the same respect?

[ILoveReptiles]

Originally posted by ramanth
I'm on the side that has this 'maternal' instinct and I hope someday I can have kids. :)

It really stings though when the subject is brought up and someone is like, "Oh I hate kids. Why would you want to have a baby?" and look at me like I'm going to give birth to a lethal virus. :(

I respect others decision to not want to have children... could you at least offer me the same respect?

Ahh - I see now maybe someone understands how us C.F. feel when we're ridiculed for NOT wanting to have a baby, and given the third degree in questions pertaining to why.

Maybe when the C.F. lifestyle choice is respected and not ostracized by society, the CF will start being more respectful of those who choose to procreate.

I myself don't ask these kind of questions, but apparently, you've met some people who do. However, I have been the recipient of the "why not? (what's wrong with you?)" line of questioning, and it irritates me to no end.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by ramanth
It really stings though when the subject is brought up and someone is like, "Oh I hate kids. Why would you want to have a baby?" and look at me like I'm going to give birth to a lethal virus. :(

I respect others decision to not want to have children... could you at least offer me the same respect?

I'm sorry that people have said things like this to you...but do please try to understand that a lot of people don't respect OUR decision either.

It can be frustrating and demeaning to hear day after day "You'll change your mind" "it's different when it's your own" "It'll change when you meet the right man" (I still hear this even though I'm engaged!) "Oh that's so SELFISH", "Who will take care of you when you're old?" "You don't really know what love is until you have a child!" "What if your parents thought the same way?" "Children are our future!" "You were a child once, too!" and a thousand other things that build up and after time a thick wall of resentment is formed.

90% of society backs your decision to have children, and a lot o the time it seems that the childfree only have ourselves. I do agree that the response you have gotten was rude and inappropriate, and I hope this may open one or two peoples' eyes to the fact that niether side likes to be demeaned.

[Logan]

Children are a blessing from God, at least in my humble opinion. Are they always easy? No way! When you have the maternal instinct, and recognize the joy of bringing new life into this world, no smelly diaper or throw up is going to discourage you! When you hear the first word, watch you baby sit up for the first time, and take that first step, it is an awesome experience!!!!! It is just as joyous to watch your child learn and grow, and experience new things. My child, thankfully, has a love for life, and she dives into everything made available to her! She hasn't been as successful at some than others, but that is the whole reason to give her the opportunity to experience as much as possible so that she can make these decisions.

Would CF mean "child free", I Love Reptiles? It is not an abbreviation that I am familiar with. I respect your decision to not have children, but I also hope and pray that others in your situation will take the time and energy to ensure that they won't be bringing unwanted life into this world, not by abortion, but by other birth control methods, as you did. I am certainly not condemning your decision, but am applauding you for taking a responsible approach when you reached your decision.

Logan

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Originally posted by ramanth
It really stings though when the subject is brought up and someone is like, "Oh I hate kids. Why would you want to have a baby?" and look at me like I'm going to give birth to a lethal virus. :(

Kimmy, I'm so sorry some people are rude enough to say something like that. I can understand people wanting kids and I'm actually grateful somebody else wants to so I don't have to. ;)

I'd be curious to see how many of the "young ones" here actually end up with kids. My best friends sister was an adamant kid-hater at one point. She went so far as to actually pop kids balloons with the hot tip of her cigarette at a outdoor fair type thing. She did it for the pure pleasure of seeing the kids cry - now she has two of her own and loves and adores them as much as any mother could. The thing of it is though, that she is still not able to put up with kids' cr*p, so her two are well behaved and actually a pleasure to have around - as compared to most of the brats out there today who are just too precious to be disciplined. :rolleyes:

Anyway, didn't mean to go off an a rant, I just wish people could be polite and tolerant of others' choices - no matter if that's regarding having kids or which car to drive or what religion to practice or whether to have a cat or a dog or.....

[catlover4ever]

I actually felt that I had no maternal instinct almost all of my life. I felt that children were obnoxious, rude and just plain a real pain. I am an only child and did not have alot of contact to other children let alone babies.

I have never in my entire life felt comfortable around children until
my best friend had a baby and at 31 years old I realized that as I held Victoria, she was the first baby I EVER held in my ENTIRE LIFE!!!! and there WAS an actual connection.

Mark and I actually have tried for 2 years to have a baby but unfortunately or maybe fortunately it is not possible for us.

Most people would be crushed if they were trying so hard and then find out that it is not possible. I figure it was always in God's hands anyway....so maybe God has always meant for me to not have strong feelings for children because I'm not meant to have them.

I wish my in-laws could understand where I'm coming from. They do not like the fact that I beleive that God has a plan for each and every one of us and that this is HIS plan for Mark and I and we are both FINE with it. Afterall, we have been married 11 years and we have now become "set in our ways" and when we sit down and discuss it, we are actually releived that it was not possible to have them....we will just spoil all our nieces and nephews.

[ramanth]

Yeah, ignorance all around sucks. :(

I had a friend growing who was so adament that she wasn't going to have children, then one day calls me up out of the blue and she's married with a baby. We sat down and reminised about how she was so convinced she'd never have kids and now can't imagine why she felt that way.

I'm happy for her and I'm also happy for the friends that are still CF.

A baby is a big step and a huge responsability. I commend all those who take the time to decide if they want kids or not. It's no ones buisness except for that mother to be or not to be. :)

[shais_mom]

I respect those that do not want children, and I respect those that do. My feeling that those that have them now, are making up for me that does not.
I always babysat, I actually like kids for the most part. My nephews drive me nuts sometimes, but I wouldn't trade them for the world. Just as I wouldn't trade being a Pet Mommy for anything.
I too in high school pictured myself getting married and being a young mom, then I got into college, and envisioned myself having a place of my own, and a dog, and at least a boyfriend. Then I graduated college with no man in sight, and now 6 years later, STILL no man in site! But I have a dog and a cat that I would have never thought I would have!
Like I said, I respect those that don't want them, but I don't respect people being hatey about it (NOT IN THIS THREAD JUST IN GENERAL) and thinking they are better then those who do have children. B/c so many people are devastated b/c they can't have children, I know it hurts them. And I don't respect people who DO have or WANT children and are hatey to those that don't.
Case in point: I was helping xray a child one afternoon and the mom (about 23-25 years old) kept asking me if anything was wrong, I told her about 4 times I can't tell you anything, Legally I can't, the dr. has to do it.
After we were done, I was walking her to the ER and she asked me again if anything was wrong and for the 5th (at least) time I said "legally I can not tell you anything, If I tell you something is wrong that isn't or vice versa, I could lose my job and my license and my livlihood." She SNAPPED at me "do you have kids" I said "No" she said "Well that explains it" Now what did I do to deserve that?
And I see way to many things in my job which doesn't even directly involve children like those of social workers etc. ( And is in a very very small town- I can't imagine what It is like for those in bigger cities) that makes me so mad that people don't have to have a license to reproduce. Kids getting shut in a dryer by their older brother when mom left for 30 min, the sweeeeetest little 3 year old boy, that did whatever I told him to do, and came to Xray all by his big boy self, was being raised by his aunt and uncle b/c his mom just didn't want him and gave him to them. And the little 7 year old girl whose mom was so drunk she couldn't remember her name but was driving around. And when we tried to ask the little girl questions she said "you better leave me alone and do what she says (her mom) or she will come after you" while the mom is verbally and physically abusing the sheriff, the dr, and the nurses. And SCREAMING "get away from her I will get YOU".
THIS is just a small drop in the bucket of what is wrong with society today. But I digress off the topic, and I apologize. But boy did that feel good!

[Kater]

At this time I would say that I am undecided about having children. If I do decide to have kids I know that I will adopt some if not all of them. I also know that if I do have kids it will be something I carefully plan.

Like Sara and others I believe parenting to be the most difficult job around. The decision to have children is huge and affects your life tremendously. I can’t make a decision like that now when my future is so unknown. I can see myself in a good place to have children ten or more years from now, but I can also see myself never having children of my own. Perhaps if I was extremely passionate about it then I would vow to make it work, whatever the future may hold, but it seems I am not extremely passionate one way or another.

As a child and teenager I always spent a lot of time around kids, babysitting and just gravitating towards them in general. I enjoy being around kids and for the most part they enjoy my company too. I used to play with baby dolls, play house, etc. But I feel a lot of that just has to do with “societal norms” being the only way of life children are aware of. I think now that I realize this truly is a choice and one to be taken very seriously, I’m scared and less sure of myself.

But my choice, one way or the other, does not take away from the fact that I love children and think they are great fun to be around. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t continue to work in childcare!

[ILoveReptiles]

Originally posted by Logan
Would CF mean "child free", I Love Reptiles? It is not an abbreviation that I am familiar with. I respect your decision to not have children, but I also hope and pray that others in your situation will take the time and energy to ensure that they won't be bringing unwanted life into this world, not by abortion, but by other birth control methods, as you did. I am certainly not condemning your decision, but am applauding you for taking a responsible approach when you reached your decision.

Logan
Thank you, Logan. And even though I do whole-heartedly support a woman's right to choose, I don't approve of abortion as a method of birth control. It should only be a last resort if all other preventative measures fail.

To answer your question, though - Yes, CF does mean ChildFree.

:)

[Denyce]

It can be frustrating and demeaning to hear day after day "You'll change your mind" "it's different when it's your own" "It'll change when you meet the right man" (I still hear this even though I'm engaged!) "Oh that's so SELFISH", "Who will take care of you when you're old?" "You don't really know what love is until you have a child!" "What if your parents thought the same way?" "Children are our future!" "You were a child once, too!" and a thousand other things that build up and after time a thick wall of resentment is formed.

Wolfchan!

I can tell you how many times I have heard all of these EXACT same phrases my entire life!!! It is so wonderful not to be alone in this life choice. I always wondered what it was about meeting the right man that would make me want to pass something the size of a watermelon out of my body:eek: :rolleyes:

While some women may feel that they have been looked down upon by those of us who choose the child free life I know from my experience it is only those who force and shove their children down my throat first whom I have been perhaps rude with. I really don't appreciate it when someone with children comes to MY home and EXPECTS me to tolerate their bratty children. I have had collectibles value destroyed by this one neighbors child. It was a Disney stuffed Bambi and Dumbo that I had gotten as a child in perfect condition from one of those fast food give aways. If you keep them in perfect condition with the tags they can eventually be worth quite a bit of money. This child went into my bedroom...got the stuffed animals off the shelf without asking and ripped the tags out of the ears before I knew she had her grubby little hands on them. These "toys" were already about 25 years old at the TIME! And the mother didn't even apologize...she just laughed.

I also don't appreciate being told I have no idea of how to raise a child just because I never had one. In my opinion I am better at knowing what is the right thing to do because I am not so emotionally involved with the child so I can make a clear, consise and logical decsion in the matter....*LOL*

Denyce

[stacwase]

I always knew I wanted children. One of my sisters has decided she never wants any, though. She's terrified that she'll turn out to be the sort of person our parents were, and she doesn't want to ever put a child through that. I think that's often an issue - people are afraid that their children will have bad childhoods, and don't want to risk it.

[carole]

I simply cannot imagine my life without children, I always had the maternal instinct, and I can see my young daughter has too,(just as long as she waits until she is around 30 lol).

My first child was born at 24, from that day on I grew up, and became a mature human being, less selfish,(you have to be)if you want to be a good parent, and I consider them both a huge blessing in my life, there are times you think WHY did I have children, but not too often, they are the most precious in my life.

I Really admire those who decide not to have children, for whatever reason, because unfortunately there are those who do, and should never have, because they are irresponsible, and the children suffer, I know a few like that myself, and the damage done to the children is something that can never be repaired.

I have friends who chose not to have children, I have no problem with it, having children does not mean you are a valuable person in society,it does not make you some special human being, you can be all that with or without kids.

Each to their own, but for me, I would have been heart-broken could I not have had my children, however I never wanted a big family, two children was all I felt I could cope with, financially, emotionally etc, and as I got one of each, I was extremely lucky, my sister had two children as well, one of each, and so did my mother, funny how that has run in our family, two is the magic number in our case.:)

[catland]

good thread everyone.

I always though that I'd probably have children "someday" because it was what you do - but someday came and went and here I am, going on 48 years old, with my husband (a wonderful man) and my three kitties.

I always felt so ambivalant - which I figured was not a good enough reason to have kids. I also just don't understand the whole maternal instinct thing - I really think that I just plain lack it.

Its been hard sometimes, my parents came from large families and I have a sister and three brothers and all of them have kids - I feel sometimes like an outsider around them - like they pity me or don't understand me (this could all be in my head, but it is how I feel). I've also had to tolerate a father-in-law who has said on more than one occasion how its too bad that his son isn't a father - that one really stings.

But then just last week, the woman that cuts my hair and who has a grown special needs son commented to me how her generation often had children for the wrong reason and that she had her son for the wrong reason - as a way to salvage a failing marriage.

To all of you who have or want children - that's wonderful and I wish you the very best. For the rest of us, its so nice to hear that we're not alone.

[Cataholic]

At first, I was annoyed with this thread. Then, I realized it was because of my current state of whale-ness, and read the responses again.

Some of what the CF or CBC people say actually still runs through my mind. Can I do it? Can I give up so much? Will I make a good parent? Will I develop maternal instincts? Will I love 2 am messy diapers and feedings the day before I have a trial? He he he. Possibly an absolute NO on that last one.

Then, I read what Logan and Carole, for example, have written, and something inside me says, "yes, I will do it gladly". I have had many people tell me something magical happens when the baby is born, or placed in your arms for the first time. That alot of your fears disappear, and you just 'become'. (No, I am not in fantasy land, I am talking about generalities, and normalacy here). While I don't necessarily applaud those that choose to have children, I don't really think more or less of those that choose not to have children. It is a personal choice, alot of times, and that is what makes us different. Just think if you all wanted to become lawyers...it would STINK. And, most of you would say, "well, why would I EVER do something like that!" We are just different.

I don't really get the hatred or the "I can't stand babies" anymore than I understand "I hate cats" or "Cats scare me". All kids are different. Just like all adults are different. Some I love to be around, some I don't. With infants/young children, at least usually it is not them, but the environment that they are reacting to. Adults? I don't know what their excuses are.

I came to mom-hood by chance, rather than choice, I suppose (though...how much by chance was it really?). Will I regret my decision? I sure hope not. But, really, who knows what life will be like once my son is here. I can't pretend to know.

[ILoveReptiles]

One thing I don't get is the assumption some people have that everyone likes kids. Who says I have to like children? Where is it written? I don't understand why people refuse to accept the fact that there are people out there, like myself, who genuinely do not like being around them, or anything about them.

Why is that so wrong? :rolleyes:

[catnapper]

I'd like to add that I would never discourage anybody from having children. I am happy when someone says they are expecting or trying to get pregnant. I just know without a doubt that it is not for me. I had a dream the other night... really it was a nightmare... I dreamt that I was pregnant. It was so real. So heartstopping. All I thought was "well mom will be happy. I'm not." Heck, if it can seep through to your dreams, its gotta be a pretty strong emotion!

One thing that I cannot stand is when people constantly ask me when my husband and I will be having kids together. We do... three kids from hid first marriage. No, they say, a new baby from YOU. Um... that's not happening. In 5 years, the youngest will be heading to college, why would we start all over again? Not only that, but he's "fixed" and isn't interested in becoming "unfixed" I knew this from date one. If I had a problem with it, then I would have not gone on dates #2, 3, 4.....

As for people making comments on either side of the debate, its rude. People should not make someone else feel guilty over their personal choices. People should not feel compeled to explain their reasons to strangers! My SIL was 40 when she had my niece... do you know the rude comments she had to endure? So what, she will be an old mom. She has more energy than I do! The thing about choices is that they are CHOICES. Only something you can make and keep.

[Karen]

I have different friends who have chosen to remain childless for different reasons.

One knows his mother's mental illness is often inherited, and knows how his own life has been damaged by her illness. He doesn't want to pass on either.

One friend had such a screwed-up upbringing that she spent years in therapy, and knows she doesn't have a clue about motherhood - as she wasn't every really "mothered" herself.

One friend knows herself well enough to know she's too concerned with herself to be a good parent.

I do not think anyone should pressure another person to have a child. I think the first prerequisite for becoming a mom should be wanting to be one.

And, Johanna, I hope you come to the Pet Talk gathering Memorial weekend. I bet you are not too big to be hugged if you want to be! Whale-ness, hrumph! Your little boy is gonna have more "online aunts and uncles" than most! :)

And I don't think ANYONE enjoys 2 am diaper-changes, but it's one of the prices one pays for the bundle of love! (And they don't (2 am diaper-changings) last forever, which is also good.)

[Sirrahsim]

this thread has been wonderful. I still do not understand why anyone would NOT want to have kids or how in the world anyone could not LIKE kids, but I guess I never will. I know that I'm not going to be a perfet parent and neither is my husband. I know that there will be times that I just want to scream and go to bed, but I also know that when I look into my baby's eyes, something completely perfect will have occured. I respect everyone's opinions and everyone has the right to not want children.
I have spent so much time studying and researching and worrying about whether I will be a good Mom to my future kids. But there is nothing in the world that excites me so deeply as looking forward to being a Mom. The thought that my husband and I will be largely responsible for shaping and molding a new life someday makes my heart feel so full of love- and we aren't even planning on trying to conceive for a few more years:) :) :) Thank you for explaining your views, and listening to mine. This has been a very enlightening discussion. :D

[moosmom]

Well, I can tell you from experience that motherhood is NOT all that it's cracked up to be.

I was very young and foolish when I got married at the age of 20. I saw all my friends getting married and having babies. I at one point decided to live with my "then" boyfriend. My father, being the very strict, conservative type said, "No daughter of mine is going to live in sin!!" So, I got married. What does my father do??? Six months into a relationship, he moves in with HIS girlfriend!!!


"Oh that's so SELFISH", "Who will take care of you when you're old?"

That is THE dumbest remark I have EVER heard!!

Anyway, getting off the tracker here...I had Amy when I was 23. At the time I thought I was in heaven. Years later, I admitted to myself AND my best friend, that I didn't think I was mother material. I mean, I ADORE my daughter, don't get me wrong, but if I had to do it over again, I probably would've passed on motherhood. Of course, hindsight has 20/20 vision.

Been there, done that...didn't WANT the tee-shirt!! :p

To this day, I get SO annoyed when I hear crying, whiny, unruly kids at the store. I just have no patience for it!

BTW Kimmy, I DO respect your feelings and opinions. It takes a very special kind of person to be a parent. I guess I just don't happen to be one of them,

[carole]

To be perfectly honest, there have been times, when I have said to myself "This is such a hard job, and am I up to it" with no training, only instinct to go by, motherhood indeed can be a challenge, infact I found it harder the second time around, I had a big gap of nearly 11years, my wee girl Bless her, was not the easiest of babies, whereas my first, my son was a breeze, it was nerve-racking at times, but she has turned out pretty well, no-one is the perfect parent, and sometimes parenthood is very demanding, and you just have to be a little selfish at times, and take much needed time out for yourself, in fact it is detrimental I believe to the children and yourself if you don't, I have never been one to palm my children onto other's family or friends, therefore that break is far and few between, to me life without my kids would cease to exist, there is no stronger bond I believe than that of a parent and his/her child.

I don't think anyone is exactly wrong for disliking children, but I think its sad that you do, because as pointed out , each child is individual, and different and unique in their own way,it may well be a part of your life you can well do without, but I compare it to people who dislike animals, IMO only they are missing out on so much in their lives, it can only be enriching, to have enough love to share with both humans and animals.

Yes having kids is a personal choice and one not to be taken lightly, it is a job for life, just because they grow up and become adults, you never stop worrying about them, caring for them, and hoping for the best in their lives.

Johanna it is understandable to have fears about becoming a mother, will I be a good parent? can I Cope? etc etc, it's a fear of the unknown, only time will tell, but I cannot imagine you to be anything less than a good mother., for some it comes naturally, others have to work on it, and for all it is exceptionally rewarding, not that the rewards are that often lol.(but well worth the wait).

[Sirrahsim]

Originally posted by carole
I don't think anyone is exactly wrong for disliking children, but I think its sad that you do, because as pointed out , each child is individual, and different and unique in their own way,it may well be a part of your life you can well do without, but I compare it to people who dislike animals, IMO only they are missing out on so much in their lives, it can only be enriching, to have enough love to share with both humans and animals.


I agree whole heartedly:) I wanted to say something to this effect, but I couldn't put it into words:)

[guster girl]

It's enriching if it's what you want and/or need. It's like a reptile lover saying a reptile hater is missing out on so much not having reptiles in their life. That's just simply not the case. I can't imagine not having rodents, but, there are plenty of people that can't stand them. Their lives certainly wouldn't be enriched if they somehow had rodents. I know it may not seem like a good analogy, but, it's the same concept. And, I don't think anyone here has said that they don't realize kids are individuals, and, unique. Maybe I overlooked that somewhere. I will say that I don't think not wanting kids has ANYTHING to do with not having love to share with another human. Just as I don't think not wanting animals has anything to do with not having love to share with them. I've seen plenty of cases where people with children and people with pets have been everything but enriched. I couldn't imagine my life without pets, but, I completely understand when people don't have them. Everyone is different, and, it's what makes life interesting. It's just a matter of seeing things from another's perspective, being accepting, and, opening your mind to the idea that people are just wired differently. Different things make different people happy. There's no need to feel sad for anyone because they don't have in their lives things that make your life complete. I mean, if someone couldn't have kids, and, wanted them, that's sad. Moving into an apartment and not being able to have a dog if you want one, that's sad. But, not wanting kids and not having kids, that's not sad. I've enjoyed this thread immensely. And, y'all will be the first to know if I ever get pregnant! Ha! For now, I'll just love on the few babies and children that I connect with...... :) On a really happy note, one of my favorite couples is pregnant with a baby boy. Now, that baby's already got me hooked and isn't even born yet, just cuz I love his parents so much. :)

[captain]

Originally posted by shais_mom
She SNAPPED at me "do you have kids" I said "No" she said "Well that explains it"

Shais_mom - I wholeheartedly agree with you - I get so annoyed when people say that to me!! WHAT, because I don't have KIDS I have NO UNDERSTANDING??

I have some friends who are childfree, and one of them got so sick of people asking her and her husband when they were having kids she told them she was infertile, had an infection and had a hysterectomy (all untrue!!) but NO-ONE ever asked her again. That is SAD!

I don't care if you have kids or not. No-one has the right to tell you "right or wrong" whether you should have kids or not. It should be no-ones business but your own!

To those of you who are happily CF - good luck to you! To those of you who have kids (or are in the process of "incubating" a little one, Johanna!!), good luck to you too.

Carole - if and when it ever happens to me, I am PM'ing you. You voiced so many of my concerns, and I think I will need to "bounce" some others off you too!!!

Good thread!

[CathyBogart]

Guster Girl - You put words to what I was thinking...I've been in hysterics all night because I lost my Chloe-rat tonight (I'll post a thread in Pet General later, so don't respond here because I don't want to hijack), but I know many people who find rats repulsive or frightening, and I respect them by never trying to shove my rats in their face or saying things like "You don't know what you're missing" (Unless they make a rude comment about ME keeping rats)

That is, in my opinion, the difference between being less something and free from something. I am a child-free person, because I don't feel that my life would gain any enrichment from a child, but I am currently scorpion-less because I don't have one, but I feel that I would love to have one and would take a lot of positive things from the experience of having one.

Now, I'm going to admit something that will surprise a few folks in here.....I LIKE Alikkon's niece! When she's not being noisy or hiperactive, she's cute. I danced with her at his sister's wedding, and I LIKED it. So :P

My boss told me awhile ago "you'll change your mind when you meet the right man".....after she already KNEW I am engaged. 0.o What on earth? Am I supposed to meet some guy now, and suddenly my uterus is going to scream out in yearning? 0.o Somehow I doubt that.

[catnapper]

Hi, me again :)

I just wanted to pop my head in and say that I love children! I really do... from afar. Take a look at my artwork (well, imagine it) the majority of my work is babies and young children. They ALWAYS turn out to be my best pieces. Always. I have a sensitivity and can capture their innocence and personality easily. I LOVE to draw babies. I'm going to a Baby Fest again today to see if I can get more commsions. I go to a Baby Fest/Expo at least twice a month. I sit there all weekend with a million babies being pushed in strollers. Each baby is so impossibly cute and I coo and make ga-ga noises at them. Not once have I left saying "awww... I want one." I know that my step-kids are all the kids I want and am meant to have. Someday I'll get to play grandma and that's enough for me... so long as it doesn't involve diapers. I'm not good with bodily fluids :D

My brother's baby is 14 months old and I love him to pieces. But I really really can't see myself taking one home fulltime and doing everything they do with/for him. Not only that, but hubby and I have COMPLETELY different parenting skills. We'd be divorced before the kid reached their 3rd birthday. Since my step kids are his kids, I relent to his parenting style most of the time... especially since he got them to teen years without my help, they don't respond to my style anyhow;) But things would be VERY different if the child were BOTH of ours. People don't stop to think about how parenting styles can vary and philiosphoies can wreck a great marriage. I've seen it time and time again. Ok, so a marriage can end on its own accord over many other reasons, but I can easily see in my case that a baby together would kill US as a husband and wife.

Captain, I have had to tell MY OWN MOM a similar story about why we're not having a baby because she offered to PAY for hubby's vasectony reversal! :eek: I hate having to have lied to her... but it IS mostly true, since I've known forever what the doctors said when I was 16.

[sirrahved]

Personally, I LOVE children and can't wait to drive a full SUV around of them! (Me, drive a minivan???? No way!!!)

My best friend from college, though, can't stand children. He despises them! In fact, he says he'll still be my friend once Jason and I have children, but we won't be as close:rolleyes:

He has absolutely no desire to reproduce at all. He says that kids are bratty and not really tolerable until they are 13 or so.

My theories on this particular situation:

Jon has problems forming bonds with people. I'm the only friend (seriously!) that he's ever had. Our relationship, although I enjoy it, is a shallow one. We don't do a lot of soul searching together. He's really not good at expressing his emotions or things like that. He is an intellectual and enjoys expressing himself that way.

In conclusion: Have you ever tried having an intellectual conversation with a two year old?:p

[guster girl]

Originally posted by sirrahved


He has absolutely no desire to reproduce at all. He says that kids are bratty and not really tolerable until they are 13 or so.



Just from my experience, it's people that generalize ALL kids as being brats, are the ones more likely to change their mind about having them. :) I've read all the posts, and, the people that are saying they don't want kids aren't really saying it's BECAUSE kids are bratty. They're usually admitting that they actually have met some kids that they enjoy being around. I'm indifferent, if I have one, fine, if I don't, fine. But, it's got nothing to do with the way kids act. I am fine with kids, and, as I get older, I meet more that I like. Mine comes from what I want more out of life. I'd rather have the love and companionship of a soulmate than children. I have a friend that won't even date someone who doesn't want kids. And, I'm a supporter of her, because she KNOWS she's always wanted a family, and, she's trying to find Mr. Right. SHe doesn't want to waste her time with someone that doesn't share the same dream. Me, on the other hand, if I meet my soulmate and he's a person who doesn't want kids, that's cool with me. Actually, my ex was the kind of person that has always said he'd never get married and never have kids. I'm fine with both of those. I'm not a religious person, so, marriage is more of a legal thing with me, and, I've already shared my thoughts on kids. What I want in life is to feel that connection with my soulmate (I felt it with my ex, but it wasn't reciprocated). If kids are part of it, my path will be different, but, and, I've said this before, my life isn't going to be less of a life without them, it'll just be different. :) Sorry for getting off on the tangent.....it's just an interesting thread.

[Twisterdog]

Well, for those of you that don't know me, let me start by telling you all that I have one child. He is almost thirteen years old. (Sheesh! Am I that old already!? :( ) I love him more than anything or anyone in the world. He was the most adorable baby, the cutest toddler, the funniest and most precocious child ... unfortunately now he is the most sullen, insolent and smart-mouthed teen ... but I'm hoping he grows out of that soon!

BUT ... I really never wanted kids. He was not planned, by any means. I never played with dolls or played house or school when I was a kid, my mom says. I never liked babies, or wanted to baby-sit. I'm a selfish person, really ... I want MY stuff in MY house, and I want to spend MY time doing MY things. It has been VERY VERY hard for me to be a parent. I think I have done a pretty good job, the best job I can do. But I will be QUITE happy and relieved when he grows up and moves out on his own. And I NEVER wanted any more kids, not for a nano-second. I could have lived my whole life very happily without a child. Of course, I can obviously live my life happily with a child, too.

I really don't see why the world feels it must divide itself into the "child" and "no child" camps. Strange. I can't fathom why people with kids feel EVERYone should have kids. My gosh ... isn't it obvious that most people who don't want or like kids don't make very good parents, and turn out not very good kids? Why would ANY of us want to live in a world populated by those kids, after they grow up? I have friends that are married, single, have kids, have no kids, straight, gay, rich, poor, like animals, don't like animals.

[guster girl]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
My gosh ... isn't it obvious that most people who don't want or like kids don't make very good parents, and turn out not very good kids?

Unfortunately, people always feel the need to label and/or categorize others that don't feel, think, or do the way they feel, think, or do. It's just the "nature of the beast." Again, my signature speaks loud and clear in situations like these.

And, I quoted that, because I know plenty of people who love and want kids that don't make good parents, either. I know you weren't saying the opposite of that, and, you're right in your statement, as well. I just thought I'd state the other side of the coin. :)

I've said this before, but, this thread is really interesting.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
My gosh ... isn't it obvious that most people who don't want or like kids don't make very good parents, and turn out not very good kids?

Yeah, what kind of kid deserves to grow up in a home where they are resented for just existing? I'd never do that to another living being, it just wouldn't be fair. So...reptiles it is!

[Randi]

Sorry, I must post this - I don't have children myself. OK, this is the short version why: At the age of having children, I needed a husband who also wanted children, as I believe that is the best way of raising them, and I needed a decent place to live! However, I love my friends children - for short periods. ;)

Anyway, I just got this in a mail:

Why God Created Children

Whenever your children are out of control, you can take comfort from the thought that even God's omnipotence did not extend to His own children.

After creating heaven and earth, God created Adam and Eve.

And the first thing he said was "DON'T!"

"Don't what?" Adam replied.

"Don't eat the forbidden fruit." God said.

"Forbidden fruit? We have forbidden fruit? Hey Eve....we have forbidden fruit!"

"No Way!"

"Yes, way!"

"Do NOT eat the fruit!" said God.

"Why?"

"Because I am your Father and I said so!" God replied, wondering why He hadn't stopped creation after making the elephants.

A few minutes later, God saw His children having an apple break and He was ticked!

"Didn't I tell you not to eat the fruit?" God asked.

"Uh huh," Adam replied.

"Then why did you?" asked the Father.

"I don't know," said Eve.

"She started it!" Adam said.

"Did not!"

"Did too!"

"DID NOT!"

Having had it with the two of them, God's punishment was that Adam and Eve should have children of their own. Thus the pattern was set and it has never changed.

BUT THERE IS REASSURANCE IN THE STORY!

If you have persistently and lovingly tried to give children wisdom and they haven't taken it, don't be hard on yourself.

If God had trouble raising children, what makes you think it would be a piece of cake for you?

THINGS TO THINK ABOUT!

You spend the first two years of their life teaching them to walk and talk. Then you spend the next sixteen telling them to sit down and be quiet.
Grandchildren are God's reward for not killing your own children.
Children seldom misquote you. In fact, they usually repeat word for word what you shouldn't have said..
The main purpose of holding children's parties is to remind yourself that there are children more awful than your own.
We child proofed our homes, but they are still getting in.
Be nice to your kids. They will choose your nursing home.
AND FINALLY...

IF YOU HAVE A LOT OF TENSION AND YOU GET A HEADACHE, DO WHAT IT SAYS ON THE ASPIRIN BOTTLE: "TAKE TWO ASPIRIN AND KEEP AWAY FROM CHILDREN".

[trayi52]

Lets see, I have three children, though they are not children anymore, I have a son 32, a daughter 29, another daughter who is 18. I have four grandchildren that ranges from ages eight to age 11.

Let me tell you if you are not up to the challenge of a lifetime, then do not have children. Twisterdog, even after you son moves out, you are still in for some worries. It does not stop until the day You die. Just because they are out on their own, that doesn't mean the worries stop. Sometimes it intensifys, I really mean that.

I still worry about my kids, that have left home, and have children of their own. Being a parent is not an easy job. It is downright a job that last and last.

My 28 year old daughter did not want children either, but after a couple years of marriage, she found out she was going to have a baby. She was not overly happy about the prospects of having a child. But when that baby was born, she became the best mother, one that I was so proud of. She doesn't choose to have another though, and I completely agree with her. Her dad doesn't he thinks she should have had another to ''go'' with that one. His explanation, she shouldn't be alone. I don't agree with that explanation at all, and told my daughter, it was her decision. Don't let other people rule your life, if you don't want another child, then don't have another child.

I completely agree if you don't want children, and think you are not parent material, then don't have children. They need so much love and taking care of a child is indeed a challenge that keeps lasting. Having a child means changing your whole lifestyle.

Me, I would not trade one minute of being a parent for anything on this earth. There is a lot of sacrifice involved, and if you are not up to the job, please don't have children, don't even think about having children. There are too many children out there that have parents that are too wrapped up in themselves to give the time needed to mold these children into the human beings they need to be.

I support all of you that don't want children. Don't have them. I have seen too many children in situations where the parent just don't have time for them. Very sad. If you are not ready to change your life, it is better to just stay childless, because the changes are until the day you die.

Randi, that was such a good and funny little saying and oh so true. I copied it and sent it on.

This is a very good thread, No arguements, and no pushing ones beliefs on another. That is great.

Willie

[lisalee]

Well, it's certainly nice to know I'm not alone in not wanting children. I always feel like I'm the only one not wanting kids, even though I could care less what other's think.

I'm 35 and have never wanted to have children. I never found babies cute.:p I actually find them ugly. Kids, they are bratty and get on my last nerve. I'll admit to being selfish, I'm an only child and that is a trait of alot of us. I like alot of time to myself and I have zero patience. I've never regretted not having kids and I'm positive I never will.

I have a deep love of animals and perfer to make this world a better place for them as I grow older. I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals. I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home. I find them to be the most selfish.:(

Lisa & Sash





http://pages.ivillage.com/lisalee992 (Sash's website)

[G.P.girl]

i'm pozitive i'm never going to have a kid, but maybe i'll adopt one. i've heard way too many people say " i wish i had my body like it has beore i had kids!" but i don't really think i'll want one at all. i don't want the responibity of a child or the expense and worry. i'll just stick to pets; they're easier to train. ;)

EDIT: plus they don't like letting single people adopt, and if i do get married (which i don't plan on it) then if i get divorced i can't just forget about the guy because he'll still want to see his kid.

it may seem like i'm being really negative, but i'm not, i just look at the the things that could happen.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Randi
Anyway, I just got this in a mail:
Why God Created Children


Thanks Randi - that gave me some great laughs for the day!!!
I almost feel I am eavesdropping as it is my own daughter who started this thread but I told her on the phone this morning that I was reading it.....

First, I feel happy that she feels like being a mother is something she wants to do because I know that she will be a very GOOD mother and that it is important to her. I like to think that I helped play some part in that process - maybe not - but I also loved being a mother to her and her brothers very much and even though I had so many goals in my life that I never accomplished (medical school, a career, etc) I have not regretted it because I discovered that mothering was actually something I was fairly good at - much to my surprise because I was terrified at the idea. I was not good with babies as a little girl and more interested in my chemistry set and dissecting bugs.

That said - if my daughter had chosen to remain childless by choice - that would also be OK by me. If people give it thought and really feel they are not meant to be parents, then I think that is a responsible decision to make. It IS a bit hard to understand though and that is why this thread has been very thought provoking. The only couples I know who do not have children are those who have badly wanted them but have been unable to conceive.

I also have to agree with everything Willie said. When I was a young mother - I never could understand why older mothers would say things like "just wait until they are older!" I mean, how could it get harder?? Yeah, well now I am learning. Once a mother and life is NEVER the same again. The worries and heartache is unending but so is the joy and blessing. Sometimes I wonder what life would be like had I been able to pursue my career as I had dreamed - but I will never know. Besides, soon I will be a grandmother!!

Thank you to everyone who has shared their feeling on this topic - very good thread!!

[Aspen and Misty]

I don't want kids for many reasons, the number one is being my occupation.

I want to own a dog shelter, where I will have MANY kinds of dogs, dogs who hate kids, dogs who don't like cats, dog's who bite everything, etc. etc. I don't think I would want to take the risk, or to be bothered by a baby crying, or by a toddler doing something bad, or by a teenagers hormones! (lol) I want to be able to concentrate on my career, my animals, etc. To me, children are kind of a "bother".

IF and this is a BIG IF, I ever deced to have children. I probly would not have my own. I would adopt. There are so many needy kids out there, I don't see why we all need to have the giving birth experiance when you could adopt a baby from Hati who needs a mommie to hug. Or a child who has never known the love of anyone. For me, I don't think I will ever understand. I dunno, I'm more into saving lives then creating them (Human included).


BTW: Why do people who don't want to have kids labled as something? When ever I tell people I don't want kids they stand there stareing at me like OMG! Whats wrong with you?!?!?

Ashley

[QueenScoopalot]

Originally posted by stacwase
One of my sisters has decided she never wants any, though. She's terrified that she'll turn out to be the sort of person our parents were, and she doesn't want to ever put a child through that. I think that's often an issue - people are afraid that their children will have bad childhoods, and don't want to risk it. I'm glad I never had kids, and it's too late now anyway...hubby's been neutered for years! :D I wasn't raised by loving parents by any stretch of the imagination, and also would be worried I'd have turned out like my parents. :eek: Being brought up in an abusive household (to say the least) doesn't make for good parenting skills later in life. A choice that wasn't hard for me to make. I understand the other side of the coin though, and feel it should be a choice made by someone willing to make that choice. Not me thanks just the same!

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by QueenScoopalot
...hubby's been neutered for years!
Where else but on PT would you read this! I gotta go tell MY hubby he's neutered!! Or should I say castrated??
:D :D

[QueenScoopalot]

Castration is too drastic sounding! Just like a dog....neutered. :D :eek: :D

[QueenScoopalot]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by moosmom
[B]

To this day, I get SO annoyed when I hear crying, whiny, unruly kids at the store. I just have no patience for it! (can't get the hang of quotes yet, sorry Donna..someday I'll get this forum)
I can relate to this comment! If ever the "biological clock" ticked (rarely if ever) a quick trip to buy pet food at Wal-Mart knocked that foolish thought right out of my head! Pet food is next to the toy section, and nothing gets me out of a store faster! I swear the local store's toy section is used for babysitting while the parents shop. I can't count the times I've been hit by balls, almost run over by kids on bikes....geesh...no wonder they have to have a "Code Adam" in the stores. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Give me a litter of kittens or a baby bird...anything but a kid!:D

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by QueenScoopalot
Give me a litter of kittens or a baby bird...anything but a kid!:D

Hey I *have* three grown kids, loved motherhood and I agree with you here! Of course MY three didn't act like this (well, really, they didn't, not like kids today!!) We will be out shopping and hear a whiny kid - my hubby's favorite comment to mutter ......."hittem again!" - in jest, but with feeling:rolleyes:....or be nearly knocked over by a running wild toddler... At this point in my life, I don't like kids either!! They get on my nerves. However, I DO have a grandbaby on the way and she will, of course, be a perfect angel.

[leslie flenner]

You know what really bothers me is not the kids that are running around crying and whining- it's the parents that are ignoring them! And the parent who slaps the poor childs hand that reaches out of the cart and so begins to cry. To me, in public, any display of kids in distress is up to the parents to address ASAP and it really irks me that they do not!! When I was a kid, if I misbehaved in public, I had to go sit in the car. (locked of course). Now, I just see parent screaming and slapping their kids or doing nothing at all- both really poor parenting responses in my mind - but I'm not a parent! I just feel sorry for children that have over-discipline or under-discipline. I feel REALLY bad for children who get both in different circumstances and grow up confused about what is ok and what is not!

[leslie flenner]

I was never sent to the car for reaching out of the cart or wanting to see something on the shelf. It was an extreme measure when I was uncontrollable (I assume! Now I need to ask mom!) and it was the 60s so no child-napping yet!) mom always let me explore everywhere we went and was quite kind about that aspect of public life together.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by leslie flenner
Now, I just see parent screaming and slapping their kids
Oh I hope you do not take my "hittem again" comment seriously! - it is a frustration joke we share! I feel like a crying child either needs attention or discipline. What I more than often see is a screaming kid "I want candy" mom says "NO" about three or four times and kid keeps screaming. Then mom gives them the candy!! Or, how many times does she have to say "stop or I will take you outside" over and over but keeps on shopping?? I guess I earned my title of the "meanest mom on the block" but back then, I guess we also did not take the kids out places as often because I really cannot remember having to deal with a crying kid!
Omegosh I am starting to sound like MY mother - "Why, when *I* was your age...."

[CathyBogart]

*Chuckles* I asked my mother ecently while we were walking through the mall... "Did I ever act like that in public?!" and she assured me that I hadn't acted like that. This was probably because IF I had acted like that, I would have been sent outside and had to stay home with my father the next time.

My fiancee's SIL...her six year old is a BRAT. He will start doing something obnoxious, and she tells him to stop or else <insert threat here>, then turns her back and ignores the behavior! X.X WTFlip is that teaching him?! Rrrrrgh, so many times I've wanted to TELL her that, but her and I get into enough arguments over pet care and I don't want to start another. -_-

[carole]

This sure has been an interesting thread to say the least, whether people have children or not is totally up to them, I suppose you can say the same for pets, maybe I am contradicting myself a little here, but guster girl made me think, and she is right, it is not enriching in your life in any way if it is not what you want.

I just find it hard to hear when people say they dislike children,I know its not personal , but having children, its just hard to hear is all.

And Trayi52, you are so right, you cannot just quit(although some do), and hope their is a good redundancy pay at the end of it, you never ever stop worrying about them, infact to me that is the only down side, that comes with parenting, is the stressful times you have,but it is part of the Job description.

Captain , I am here anytime if and when I am needed lol!!!:)

[Sirrahsim]

Originally posted by lisalee
I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals.


*COUGH* *SPUTTER* *CHOKE*

Holy freaking cow and WtF? I *HOPE* that I read that wrong. Really, honestly, I would give my big toe to have that statement have been one big long typo. So, animals should be equal to or higher than HUMAN children? So tell me, if your neighbors home caught fire and in one room was their abnoxious little 3 year old child, and in the other room was a box of kittens, and you only had a chance to save one of the other. Would you save the kittens and let the little girl burn? Or even hesitate for a second before saving the obnoxious snotty nosed brat? Because if there would be even a *moments* hesitation where the welfare of those kittens was placed higher than the welfare of that little girl than there is *seriously* something very wrong with that. Please tell me that that statement came out wrong. Please. I know that the example that I used is a little extreme, but you get the idea... I didn't want this thread to have any arguing- just information giving- but I've just gotta draw the line somewhere.

[sirrahved]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
We will be out shopping and hear a whiny kid - my hubby's favorite comment to mutter ......."hittem again!" - in jest, but with feeling:rolleyes


So now I know who to thank for this awful habit that Jason has....:rolleyes: *sigh*

[trayi52]

I have a deep love of animals and perfer to make this world a better place for them as I grow older. I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals. I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home. I find them to be the most selfish.

Missy I find that to also be very cold and selfish. I have never heard of such a cold hard hearted thing in my whole life. I can't believe anybody would classify a childs life so low. How dark can you be? No wonder you were an only child! I think I would have pinched your head off as soon as you were born! I have to agree an animal life is more important than yours! As somebody say, I can see why some species eat their young!

You insulted every mother, mother to be, and grandmother on this board. It is one thing to not like children and not want children as the people in this thread have been so decent about their feelings. But what you posted is absolutely horrible! I wouldn't trust a person such as you to even take care of my pets!

Willie

[tuxluvr]

Another "CBC" here - never had any strong desire, have been married almost 30 years to the same man, who shares the sentiment---my take on this (and I think it's my first visit to the dog house!)...

My overall take is that things happen for a reason - I worried in my twenties that there was something desperately wrong with me because I didn't want children and didn't get all "melty" around babies (in fact, babies and young children tend to steer clear of me - they obviously KNOW) (TEASING)..

On the other side - I have ENORMOUS respect for those who do have children and devote the needed time to raise productive contributing members of society - it is a huge responsibility and one of the most important things a human being can do.

I also believe it has, in our society, been unfairly deemed as a "lesser choice" to the extent that "by choice stay at home moms" have often been denigrated by their peers. Statistics prove that intact families or at least INVOLVED parents produce the healthiest and most stable children. I have enormous respect for those who postpone their own desires if they stand in the way of effective child rearing.

My nieces and nephews all refer to me as the "COOL AUNT" - and I really didn't enjoy their company until they were almost teenagers. I do enjoy them now.

I do think that something "takes over", even when non-maternal types become pregnant - and I've often seen these people become extremely effective parents - they tend to see their children more as "other people" and maintain a more objective view of their "lil darlins"...

I've had people tell me that I would never be "fulfilled" until I had children and I've never quite understood that. I think we each have something to contribute to life, and it is unique - it may involve procreation and it may just involve "creativity"...I don't nurture children, but I do nurture friendships, my spouse, Ritz( of course), my clients...

I've learned that personal happiness cannot be defined or created by other people - such as spouses or children - certainly they can enhance that happiness, but one must find the cause of joy inside themselves - cultivate it, and happiness will find you, and your happiness will find its way as a light to others

[trayi52]

tuxluvr, you said that is the most beautiful way, and I highly commend you for that. Some are not meant to have children, but see you are a ''cool aunt'', and that is great. It proves you are cool, you have a teenager tell you that and you have a very high rating! Believe me, I have worked with teenagers, and when you are classified in that catagory, then you are somebody very special!

That was a very sweet post, and all the mothers, mothers to be, and grandmother love you for it! Honestly.

Willie:)

[Pam]

Originally posted by trayi52

You insulted every mother, mother to be, and grandmother on this board. It is one thing to not like children and not want children as the people in this thread have been so decent about their feelings. But what you posted is absolutely horrible! I wouldn't trust a person such as you to even take care of my pets!

Willie

I agree with you Willie. This thread has been so nice and everyone has expressed their feelings so well about how they came to make their decisions. Too bad this poster couldn't 'tone it down' a bit and not be quite so insulting to those of us who have chosen to become mothers.

One of my favorite aunts (my dad's sister) never had children and in fact never married. She had boyfriends but somehow couldn't take that final step toward marriage. She knew herself well enough to know that she wasn't cut out to be a wife and/or mother but nevertheless she was one of the aunts whose visits I really looked forward to when I was a bratty little kid. :p And, believe it or not, she adored me too! :p

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by lisalee

I have a deep love of animals and perfer to make this world a better place for them as I grow older. I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals. I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home. I find them to be the most selfish.:(


Lisa,
While I am glad that you love animals - I am completely bewildered and blown away by that second statement.
Next Sunday is Mother's Day, and if you are still blessed enough to have your own mother alive, or whoever the woman is who took care of you and raised you as a child, I hope you will honor her for NOT sharing in your feelings, and considering YOU, Lisa, as more than an animal. If it was your dad - thank God for him!
This thread was an honest attempt to understand the desire to have or not to have...children. While I realize many of us do love our pets in quite a similar way to our children - I know I do, to make a statement that you "find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals" is far beyond my comprehension - and highly insulting.

[2kitties]

I don't have any problem with children and will probably choose to have a couple when we feel we are finacially prepared to provide them with the things I want to provide. I am not currently ready for motherhood. For me, I won't be ready until we're financially prepared, I'm in a place in my own career that I can afford to leave the industry for a few years and reenter without starting over. I also need to be in a life place where I'm ready to be selfless. I'm not there. I enjoy going to adult restaurants on weekends (and HATE to see children in grown up restaurants), go on grown up vacations- both planned and spontaneous- and spend my money on ME.

So my choice to wait on children is not because of any distaste for children or parents or any of those things. I think children are wonderful. My choice to wait is because of me and my readiness.

Of course, if I were to marry and start making babies, what would my mother have to complain about.... I suppose she'd come up with something. I'm certain I wouldn't raise them right.;)

[Kfamr]

I'm afraid to say anything here, as it seems those with different opinions get an angry attitude from some.

But, in my opinion and my opinion only...

-Raising a child is just like a dog, but far more complicated.
-You teach a dog wrong from right, as you do a child.
-You feed a dog and supply it with the care it needs, as you do a dog.
-You train a dog, resulting in a well-behaved animal, just like a child.
-You blame an owner for a misbehaved dog -- the same thing should go for children. Of course, there are naturally born 'bad apple' dogs, as there is children who are born 'bad apples'
-You clean up after a dog - feces, drool... etc.. -- the same for a child.
-You control your dog when it is running around and misbehaving -- same for a child...

Get my point?


Threads about children always make me feel bad, since i'm a child myself and it's like i'm some sort of sin for being born... because my parents chose to have me.



One day, I hope to have children. Wether they are adopted or not, that will be left up to my partner and I to decide. I personally would rather not go through the physical and emotional pain of having one myself.
And, just like when someone buys a dog from a breeder (i've seen some compare buying a dog to having a child) Although i'd much rather see a dog adopted, i'm still happy for that dog to have a loving caring home.

The only time I'm against someone having a child is if they are not able to afford financially and emotionally for another life. (and of course if they're far too young and children themselves)

[trayi52]

Kay, I find nothing you said to be insulting in anyway! You made and excellent point in everything you said. We as parents love our children, and we love our pets too. Your Simba and Nala are like your children. You have respect for the life of children and animals alike. Good for you!

Willie:)

[tuxluvr]

This thread made me think of my own parents....and I started another on "general" if anyone is interested...enjoy



http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48612

[trayi52]

I have seen your thread, tuxluvr, and found it to be very beautiful! Thank you so much for starting that thread.:)

Willie:)

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Kfamr

Threads about children always make me feel bad, since i'm a child myself and it's like i'm some sort of sin for being born... because my parents chose to have me.

Sounds like your parents have done a good job of raising you and you do not sound like a child. You express your self well. I have three grown children myself and in particular, a 19 year old daughter who dearly loves her cat - very much the way you seem to love your animals. Her cat is very much her "baby" and is spoiled rotten. But when the time comes for her to have her own flesh and blood child which she wants so much - THIS is a lifetime commitment that never ends. It will change who she is *forever*. The young woman she is today, will simply not exist in quite the same way - ever again. In all likelihood, like me, she will then become a grandmother and a great-grandmother - and so forth. Being a mother means helping to mold and shape another personality, a person who will hopefully go on to become a contributing member of our society and carry on life and humanity as we know it.
There are some *similarities* between training a child and training a pup - such as you mentioned, yes. But to parents who "chose to have you" as you said - this is world of difference than going out to adopt a dog, cat, bird, rat, reptile, etc. Animals can become members of the family and the givers and recipients of amazing love, but they will never be *above* a human being.

[trayi52]

Very well said, Debbie!:)

[lisalee]

Yes, I'm outspoken on my views of animals being treated much less than children/human beings. I'm an animal advocate and very proud of it, there are many more who also share my views. In fact, there were many posters on this board who stated very similar to me there views on children. But that was ok, right?? I was the one picked to be singled out and lashed out at. I find many of your comments to be very offensive and it SHOWS me that you must want to start trouble with anyone that doesn't share your views. :rolleyes:

Yes, to the young girl who wanted to know if I would rescue the kittens in the burning building. You better believe I would!:) Would you let them burn over the child??? I find that to be a very cruel statement!:mad:

I've met so far some very nice people on this board and some not so pleasant individuals I see.:eek: Enough said.

Lisa & Sash

[Corinna]

Well this thread is going to let me maybe surprize a few with my story. I didn't want any kids and I told hubby about it when we were dating. He said the same things as most of you. But I was very sure as I had inherited my fathers german timper. They called me corky at school cuz I would go off like a cork . Didn't take much for me to get pi$$ of. All went as planned (my plan) till 3 years of marrage I found the 2% of failerue on the pill . My daughter was born, 22 months later my son arrived another pill failure. Not that I failed they did. I was so scared I wouldn't be alone for months with my daughter (my mom and her are very bonded as a result cuz she was there to help me so much) I can't say I didn't lose it but never to what I thought I would(I thought I would be a physical abuser) I never did hit them . I did find I like kids at the age of 2 (i know most people don't like them then ) then each year after I enjoyed them more even as teens (crazy i know) . If I was to do it over I don't know if I would change it or not(glad i don't have to make that descion. ) I enjoy spoiling the neices and nephews ,will grandchildren if any ever appear but that is the kids choices.
I do try to make them very aware of the chances of family inherited diabetes . Had I known the history that would energe from the 2 families I would have been more likly to not have had them. 5 of the 6 grandpaernts are 2 on insulin, I have it . one or both of mine by 30 will have the disease. I tried to ward it off by really drilling good nutriation . After son was born hubby went for the neutering. It was a volentary thing as a gift to me since I went through the births.
Mydaughters birth was hard 18 hours but son was 4 and like having a bad case of gas no pain. (that came later as he grew up.):)
I think it is a persons choice and no one should pressure any one in to it.
parenting is no picnic and like pet ownership its a life time commitment. Like willie says you still worry and pray for them constantly.

Jen I would like to know how at 20 you were able to have the problem fixed? Here in less you have a medical problem they will not do it. I would have if that were the case. Are our countries that much different?

[trayi52]

Now you are saying you would actually leave a child in a burning building and just save the animals?!

Let me tell you, everybody in this thread was very decent about their explaination on why they did not want children. They never said they would leave one to die!

[lisalee]

I NEVER said such a thing, now did I?? Willie my boy you are putting words in my mouth.:confused:


Lisa & Sash

[Miss Meow]

Originally posted by trayi52
Now you are saying you would actually leave a child in a burning building and just save the animals?!

Let me tell you, everybody in this thread was very decent about their explaination on why they did not want children. They never said they would leave one to die!

Willie, lisalee said nothing about leaving children in a burning apartment. Sirrahsim raised that analogy and lisalee responded by saying it's a cruel statement.

Maybe we should all stick to the original question as this is starting to turn into a child-bashing (figuratively, I mean) thread.

[Edit: oops, posted at the same time as lisalee :o ]

[trayi52]

Then lisalee, you should explain yourself a little further, and not leave it as if you would!

I am not a boy, I am a proud mother, and grandmother! When you say something don't just leave it like you are going to be inhuman about the whole thing!

Nicole, go back and read her other post!

[Sirrahsim]

Originally posted by lisalee
Yes, to the young girl who wanted to know if I would rescue the kittens in the burning building. You better believe I would!:) Would you let them burn over the child???

Yes. If I was put into this situation I would save the human child and let the kittens burn. I find it repulsive and very, very, very sad that you would even consider saving the kittens and leaving the child to die. Perhaps you misunderstood my post-go back and read it. I asked if you could save one or the other, which would you save? You stated that you would save the kittens. That means that you would let the child die. I am very, very, very sorry that you feel that way. Perhaps you had a bad experience as a child, but that is not a reason to allow a human child to die when you had the opportuinity to save her and decided to save soem animals instead.
Your statements have mostly been very disturbing to me and I only hope that you will never be my neighbor. If my child was in one room and my cats in the other, and you saved my cats and knowingly let my child die... You better believe that I would press charges and see to it that legal action was taken...

[Twisterdog]

I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals. I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home. I find them to be the most selfish.

And I find you to be frightening and small-minded.

[Kfamr]

Can we not put personal attacks towards eachother?

That's why I was afraid to post.

[Pam]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lisalee

I have a deep love of animals and perfer to make this world a better place for them as I grow older.
And how are the animals going to make this a better place for you? Are they going to work to make society better? Will they grow up to be scientists and teachers and judges and nurses? Will they maybe some day find a cure for cancer?
I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home.
In case you hadn't noticed this is a PET forum. There are absolutely no people on here that haven't opened up their homes to an animal. In fact many have lots and lots of animals! If you are speaking about society as a whole, I would suggest you think again. Dogs, cats, birds, reptiles, whatever you can name, are living among us all over the world. I find your thinking to be very skewed and honestly a little scary.

[trayi52]

What do you call a personal attack Kay?

[Dogz]

WILLIE:


Originally posted by Twisterdog
And I find you to be frightening and small-minded.

I would call this a personal attack.

I would call what you just did a personal attack.


Since you needed an example, there are two.

[trayi52]

Emma, how about this one:

I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals. I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home. I find them to be the most selfish.

What do you call that? Do you find that statement to be true?

[Twisterdog]

It wasn't an attack. And it wasn't personal, since I dont' know this person. It was my opinion, based on her comments. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Would you also call the following a "personal attack", as well? I certainly would.


Originally posted by lisalee
... I find many of your comments to be very offensive and it SHOWS me that you must want to start trouble with anyone that doesn't share your views. :rolleyes: ... I've met so far some very nice people on this board and some not so pleasant individuals I see.:eek: Enough said.

Lisa & Sash

[Dogz]

Yes, I would call those both personal attacks.

Sorry, Twisterdog. I just took it as a personal attack. But, I can understand how it isn't a personal attack, I suppose. :)

[Dogz]

Here is my answer.

I have not yet chosen that I am not going to have children. I cannot yet make that decision, since I am a child myself.

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by Dogz
Yes, I would call those both personal attacks.

Sorry, Twisterdog. I just took it as a personal attack. But, I can understand how it isn't a personal attack, I suppose. :)

It's ok. I suppose I should have said, "And I find YOUR VIEWS to be frightening and small-minded." instead. Better? :)

[Dogz]

Originally posted by lisalee

I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home.

So, does this mean that you find yourself to be selfish?


:rolleyes:

Twisterdog: Yes, that would make it a statement. Personally, I think that they are true.

[trayi52]

Emma, as you said you are young. I was not attacking you or Kay in any way. I am a mother and a grandmother. I am pretty sure your mothers would stand up and also defend you as human beings with the right to life.

Like Pam, said we all have pets in our homes, and love them dearly. I just think that lisalee's statement was totally uncalled for. She could have stopped it before she insulted every mother, mother to be, grandmothers and all would have been just fine.

Do you understand what I am saying Emma?

[Dogz]

Originally posted by trayi52

Do you understand what I am saying Emma?

Yes, a lot of lisalee's statements were uncalled for.

I am reading through the whole thread now.

[Pam]

You know the sad thing is that often people will visit a forum such as this and get the members stirred up against each other and then they just slink off into the night. :rolleyes: To be honest, I didn't see any attacks here. I saw people defending their own viewpoints.

[trayi52]

Emma, LOL, I don't mind being called a boy, I'm used to that. My god I used to get put in the boys homeroom in high school! Can you believe that? I was just a little old dum hick that didn't know what the devil was going on back then.

Willie:)

[carole]

Personally I find anyone who takes things to the extreme scarey,. It is one thing to love and care for animals and to be an advocate ,but to take it to the extreme is frightening IMO.

Thanks Kay for bringing this thread back on a lighter tone, even though it has become heated again,(and I am not suprised as to why) but I can think of two things different to raising dogs and children, they don't cheek you back , or borrow the car lol.

I think if i were to take the easier option, it would be to raise dogs than children, but hey I am glad I didn't.!!!!:)

[Dogz]

Originally posted by Pam
You know the sad thing is that often people will visit a forum such as this and get the members stirred up against each other and then they just slink off into the night. :rolleyes: To be honest, I didn't see any attacks here. I saw people defending their own viewpoints.

Now that you have put it in a different perspective, I can see exactly what you are saying, and I do agree.

Thank you, Pam. :)

[lisalee]

I can see this is a one-sided conversation going on here. I don't have the time to respond to each of you personally but I do find many of you to be very insulting and also very frightening. The individual that would let the innocent kittens die in a fire is very scarey too and small minded, as many of you seem to be.


I have much more productive things to do with my time than argue on message boards. If there are any more nasty comments directed at myself please send them via pm/email.


My opinions and views are only mine and they are too be respected just as everyone else who posted on this thread, not to be personally attacked.


Lisa & Sash

[Sirrahsim]

Originally posted by lisalee
I can see this is a one-sided conversation going on here. I don't have the time to respond to each of you personally but I do find many of you to be very insulting and also very frightening. The individual that would let the innocent kittens die in a fire is very scarey too and small minded, as many of you seem to be.

Ok- let me spell out what people are concerend about. You said that if you were put into the situation where you could save the life of a human child or of a box of kittens that you would save the kittens. That also means that you would willingly let the human child die. Saving an animal at the expense of a human child's life is a very unsettling thought for nearly everyone here.
Saying that you would let a child die just so that you could save some kittens is saying that you would willingly commit a criminal act against another human just so that you could save a couple of kittens. That is exactly what you said. So do not respond by saying "That's not what I said" If you would like to further explain yourself than please do.

I feel confident in saying that Yes, most of the people here would let the kittens die IF they had to make the choice between the kittens lives or a human life.
What I am not saying is that I would just let kittens die if there was something that I could about it. My question was about a choice- kittens or human child. Most people with a firm grip on reality would choose to save the human child. That's just how it is. It is disturbing to think that ANYONE would save the kittens and let a human child die...
I can't think of any more ways to word this so that you might understand so I will leave it at that.

[trayi52]

Ditto, Missy. If my house was burning, I would save my human children first, then I would go back and save the kittens too. I love my human children, and I love my cats, dogs, bird, ferret and whatever other animal I happen to have. There is no way, that I would not attempt to save them too.

Just think of it this way, we save the children so that someday they may save the life of one of these small lives too. We have to have people, which starts out as babies, to be able to save these animals that you have put such a high value on. We all value the lives of our pets and no doubt we would all do our very best to save them from whatever danger came along.

Willie

[lisalee]

You my dear are going way off the topic you started here. I recall the question being our views on having children?? I stated my views, you attacked and other's followed.



Lisa & Sash

[Sirrahsim]

*sigh* one more time

I did not take this way off topic. You did by making a degrading comment about the value of human life when it was not at all called for. If you hold little value for human life than fine. You are entitled to think whatever you want. However, I am tired of giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that you just don't understand what we are trying to say. Your comment was not an informational and helpful one. That on top of the fact that you said that you would be willing to indirectly murder a human child just to save a box of kittens. We all value human life as well as animal life here. I'm sorry that you have no answer to our comments and that you have to resort to changing the subject. This thread is about the decision to have children. If you have any comments about THAT please give them. You threw this off topic by making a radical statement about the value of human life. Nearly everyone in here was offended. That should tell you something. Please read the intro again and if you have any comments to add on the subject matter please do.

[trayi52]

Everybody stayed on topic, lisalee here is where you took it off the topic that sirrahsim started:

I have a deep love of animals and perfer to make this world a better place for them as I grow older. I find it sad that kids/babies are placed so much higher in society than animals. I find people to be selfish that can't open there hearts to let an animal into there home. I find them to be the most selfish.

We all have a deep love for animals too, or we would not be here on this forum. This thread was started by sirrahsim, and what you said had nothing to do with the topic at all. In other words, you hijacked her thread, and added that to her topic.

[CathyBogart]

Oi, can we take this to PM please? I kept my response to a PM. :P

I'd like to add ot the original topic that I would consider *fostering* a child later in life, and Brian has agreed that that is a possibility. If I got too attached to give up the child, well, so be it.

I mean, look at this little boy!! He's darling, but finding him a home is going to be really hard just because he's ten years old...

http://photolisting.adoption.com/9470.html <-info

http://photolisting.adoption.com/image/9470.jpg <-picture by itself

[trayi52]

WolfChan, what was that? My darn computer won't let me go there!

Willie:)

[CathyBogart]

It's a picture and description of a little boy named Corey who is available for adoption in California. He's ADORABLE, and...

"Corey is a handsome African American boy who is legally free for adoption. Corey is a friendly child who loves to be around others. He attends school and needs some assistance with staying focused on his homework. Corey says that he wants to be adopted and belong to a family."

He's ten years old. :(

[trayi52]

Oh, he is the same age as a couple of my grandchildren. Fostering children would be very rewarding. There was four children here where I live, two boys and two girl, for some reason the separated the boys from the girls when they fostered them. They were so loving, always had hugs for everybody. The good thing when they finally were adopted, they all went to the same home. I was so very happy for them.

I have took in lots of children into my home, never regretted it either. I have took in teens too, didn't regret that either. Seems like my home has always been full.

Who know, maybe Corey will find a place to go. A forever home, I hope he will find that.

Willie:)

[CathyBogart]

So do I. Tha'ts why I would consider fostering, there are SO MANY older kids in need. I had no idea how many until I searched for something else and came across this site. :(

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Pam
To be honest, I didn't see any attacks here. I saw people defending their own viewpoints.

I agree Pam....sort of:p Now all of us being animal owners - and given the topic....haven't we all likely witnessed similar interchange among MOTHER ANIMALS?? (we are humans but can still learn by watching animals) I see a good bit of PROTECTIVENESS being displayed here. Moms protecting children. Younger people reacting because they have received GOOD MOTHERING. I think even the love of animals has to be learned and more than likely, it was learned from someone who nurtured that person. We can't love another creature unless WE have been loved at some time.

All this said, I believe some of what was seen as attacking, was actually protecting and defending. I did not read anything angry or mean.

By the way - even if many of you choose not to be mothers, and I am so sorry if people have made you feel you have to defend this choice - you DON'T! - but you did have a mother - or someone to raise you - and if you still have her, don't forget to remember her next Sunday!;)
(not a commercial! :rolleyes: )

[cloverfdx]

I will stay away from all earlier comments. ;)

There is not a maternal bone in my body, not for a human child.

I myself never want to be a mother. I dont have the time or patience to raise a human child. It would be selfish of me to have children (would need a man, huh not going to happen) ;)

[ramanth]

Originally posted by moosmom
BTW Kimmy, I DO respect your feelings and opinions. It takes a very special kind of person to be a parent. I guess I just don't happen to be one of them,
Balderdash!!! You are a WONDERFUL person. Amy is a very special woman and it obviously reflects on how great a mom you are. :)

[trayi52]

All in all, this has been a very good thread. I really do respect each and everyone here for their decision to have or not to have children. I have a sister-in-law that never had children. She is a wonderful person.

Just because you don't want children, it doesn't make you any less of a person. Not all of us were meant to be parents of skin kids. Some have their wonderful pets to love. That can be very fullfilling. I love mine like they were my children, and in truth, they are. When one of these beautiful creatures die, and go on. We cry our hearts out, and suffer so much pain from losing our wonderful loving pets. So it seems you all have children, they just got more hair than the skinkids.;)

I just want you all to know, that I respect each and everyone of you for that.

Willie:)

[dukedogsmom]

I wonder how this would have run had it been titled "Why make the choice to have children?" I have always been an animal person. I have never had a desire to have kids and don't get all crazy when I see a baby. That's just me. I don't hate them, just don't want any. I'd rather fill up my house with animals. I feel bad for people that thinks that makes me a bad person.

[Logan]

Well, one thing is for sure, Valerie, and that is that no one here, has posted anything that would make you feel like a "bad" person for not adding skin kids to your household, for sure!!! :) In fact, the opposite seems to be true, as most of us "skin" kid lovers are happy to hear that those of you who aren't like us, have chosen to take the necessary steps to avoid being parents.

There are people of all personalities out there, pet lovers, included, some of whom prefer not to add to the human race, and I certainly don't fault them for their decison. I also can certainly understand the "other" side, those who choose to bring human life into this world. It has been a special blessing for me to do that, as I am sure it has been for others.

"To each his own", is a saying that I understand and support. Most of you, who have said you don't want kids have not condemned children, just respectively stated your reasons for not having any, which I appreciate, totally.

Logan

[trayi52]

Very well said, Logan. Thats exactly how I feel. I don't think any less of you Val, for that decision. In fact I do understand, and admire you for that decision. I sure don't think you are a bad person, no not at all. I think you are a very good person, I see how you are with the young people here at Pet Talk, you are very kind and sweet to them. Who could ask for more?

Willie:)

[Tonya]

When I became pregnant with Jaden, I was totally irresponsible. I never wanted to have kids and I was totally unprepared. By the grace of God, Jaden changed my life. I am a wonderful mother and I love Jaden more then anything. I couldn't imagine life without children now.

On the other hand, I have a friend who is a wonderful person. She became pregnant by accident. She had one abortion before, and decided that wasn't for her. She wanted to give the baby up for adoption. I was pregnant at the same time, we had the same due dates and I wound up losing the baby. When that happened, I was so devastated. My friend begged me to adopt her baby. I told her no and convinced her that she would love her baby and the maternal instincts would kick in when he was born. Well, I am sad to say that he's over a year old now and her maternal instincts still haven't kicked in. She doesn't abuse him, but he isn't really loved either. She's just not cut out to be a mom.

I feel so guilty because I'm kind of the one that convinced her to give motherhood a shot. From this experience, I've realized that not everyone is cut out to be parents. It isn't like this girl is a loser or cold hearted person...she just simply isn't maternal.

She's still begging me to adopt her son, and now he's so much older. I wish I'd done it when he was a newborn. Mike and I've been talking about it alot. It's a big and scary decision.

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by Sirrahsim
I don't understand why some people do not ever want to have children?

Because it's my life and my decision. I am one who is not planning on having kids either. Right now I am only 16 years old, as I get older, my views *may* change. My plans for my future and future career I want to have would make having a child nearly impossible.

Also, my family is plagued with horrible genes causing so many health problems, it's not even funny, I really don't want to pass these genes to my children and have to go through all the hell my family members (close and distant) are going through because of it. No way!!!

My life, my decision. :)

[carole]

I think there are a lot of younger ones like yellowlablover saying she has no plans to have children at this point in her life, but that may change, believe me at 16 I did not want children either, infact even at 22 I didn't, but by 23 my mind had changed.

Tonya your story made me so sad, this poor little boy is obviously being deprived of the love he needs, it is not your fault, he still had the right to be born and I really hope someone can adopt him, and give him the kind of life he really deserves.

All of you know how much I adore my furbabies, when I lost my Sooti, it took me a long time to get over it, but the difference is if I lost one of my children I would never ever get over it, furbabies are replacable, it does not mean I don't think about my Sooti , I still do and I still cry for him sometimes, but Lexie has indeed helped me through it and to come to terms with it, a child is not something you can just pick up at the local pet store, if you get my drift, when you have carried a baby for 9mths , given birth, and all the love you have to that child, nothing in the world can replace that, not even another child. Just MO.

To Lisalee, just briefly, I am not here to attack you , I don't have an issue with you, but other's do, I don't think you set out to purposely insult people on the board, but unfortunately you did, so maybe an apology might be in order, up to you of course, there have been some not so nice people on PT, but everyone I know is very nice, and Willie is no exception, she is one of the nicest people I know, and I have been here over a year now., you hit a raw nerve with some people that is all, maybe time to make some peace.

Other than that I have enjoyed reading everyone's response's, motherhood is not for everyone, and sometimes because I have enjoyed being a mother so much, I just want everyone else to experience that joy, but I know that is not the case, and to other's it is not what they want from their lives, maybe just as well, as we would be even more over-populated world than present.:)

Wolfchan your idea of fostering really suprised me, in a very nice way, that is such a great thing to think of doing, it is not something I could do, I Just don't have it in me, to have a child for a while and not with me forever, it takes a very special kind of person to beable to foster, and maybe you are that person.:)
Cheers everyone.;)

[cubby31682]

I have always wanted children, I use to tell my mom that I was going to have thousands of kids. Just so they wouldn't want a brother or sister like I always wanted a younger sister. Now that I am older I wouldn't having a few kids, I am not ready yet, I am still young. I watched 4 kids over the weekend, and I loved it. These were also very well behaved kids as well. My mom swears that I have the mother in me the way I treat kids, I am not the one to sit and play with kids, I have to warm up to them. My two nieces and my nephew I can play with them all day.

[guster girl]

I've been reading this thread and not really posting since all of the hullaballoo.... :) But, I did just want to say that I don't think furbabies are any more "replaceable" than human children. Just because I have a new dog after my Bruno passed away at 15, doesn't mean that he is or ever will be replaced. Just as having another human child could never replace losing one. Just my opinion. Had to say it. :)

[guster girl]

Originally posted by Pam

And how are the animals going to make this a better place for you? Are they going to work to make society better?

I'm not at all disagreeing or agreeing with some of the comments that were made during this part of the conversation. But, I did want to say that there are many children that don't grow up to make this a better place, unfortunately. I am thankful for children, and, for people who want children and raise them to be good productive people. But, there are PLENTY of animals that do make this a better place to live. Guide dogs, service dogs, rescue dogs, therapy animals, etc.

[Glacier]

Ok, I guess I'll finally respond to this one...

I am in my early thirties, married for five years this month, wonderful husband, happy marriage, finacially secure, stable ect....all the stuff that leads people to expect us to have children soon.

We have no plans to ever have children. I love kids, absolutely adore them, hubby is great with them, little ones flock to him all the time. I just don't want my own. I have nothing against kids at all and completely respect those that do have them. Most of our friends have young kids and I often get to babysit. I have 9 nieces and nephews--ADORE THEM!! I can't get enough of my sister's three little girls, but at the same time, being the cool auntie who can buy them loud toys, feed them sugar, play silly games, has time to sit and listen to them for hours--well, that's the good part of parenthood without the stress, worry, ect.

We take all sorts of flack for this decision from other people. My sister in law actually asked me once why I got married if we didn't plan to have children? Like there was no other reason to get married! Now I've taken to telling people that when I want to hear the pitter-pat of little feet, I'll put shoes on my cats. I've found that if I try to give them the real reasons, no one believes us or accepts them. Being sarcastic at least shuts them up!

My sister is raising three kids under the age of 8 alone! one is still in diapers. She's always wanted kids-since she was a toddler she's wanted to be a mom. And she's amazing. doing a simply amazing job with those girls. I deeply admire her committment. Heck, I send her mother's day presents! But I don't want to be her or in her shoes.

My dogs tie me down more than kids would. It's alot easier to find someone willing to babysit a kid or two than it is to find someone willing to take care of 18 dogs and 8 cats!

I spent seven years as a front line child protection worker. It almost killed me and did damage to my soul that I am still trying to heal. The things people do to kids is just astounding and horrifying. It's harder to adopt a dog from our local humane society than it is to have a kid. My co-workers and I often said there ought to be a test before you can have a baby. Would save a lot of kids a lot of heartbreak!

[trayi52]

Guster Girl, I just have to ask you this, you said service dogs, etc makes it a better place and I am not disagreeing to that. Not at all. What I am going to do is ask you who train these dogs to do these wonderful services? I know it does take people to train them to do just that. Is that not true? There are very special people training these very special dogs to do this service.

[guster girl]

I knew someone would bring that up, and, almost put it in the response to begin with. I just figured it would go without saying that they didn't teach themselves to sniff out cocaine or smell out termites or cancer cells, or guide the blind or make sick or elderly people feel better, but, I guess I was wrong in that assumption. But, the fact is, they fill a void that humans alone can not. There are simply things that a dog can do that humans cannot. And, dogs also teach humans things, as well. That's why they have programs like the ones where dogs are brought to prisons or detention halls. They teach people respect, love, and, responsibility. So, I'd say it works both ways.

[leslie flenner]

I wasn't around to read all these last many posts of people feeling what they were feeling! But I've caught up. I was not insulted and I didn't THINK a post about preferring to be with animals as offensive. Actually, I smiled to myself because it reminded me of how many time me and my rescue friends have said to each other, "If it was a human...". I am talking about going into repeatedly neglectful and abusive situations where we felt like crying and screaming because of an animal that should not be living in the conditions they are living in but no one cares. How many times have I called the MSPCA and Animal Rescue League and Animal Control and heard, "Well, they're getting food, water, shelter, we didn't witness xyz so,... (so see ya later). So it's why we end up "stealing" pets so often! So that was all I thought of regarding that animals are not regarding as important/high- whatever, as humans! I thought it quite innocent and just stating the facts (we've all seen animal precinct etc right?- it's frustrating when they have to leave because the owner is fulfilling the basics but we all know it's bad.)
Regarding the story re: burning building, what if: I remember working in a lousy neighborhood for several years that was teaming with stray cats so I was constantly assessing them, finding their litters, finding them homes, bringing them to Emergancy rooms when I got off at midnight. My co-workers would laugh and chide me, and more than once the question was posed to me- "If you were driving down the street, and you were about to hit a dog or a person, and had to swerve one way or the other- which one would you hit?" My answer (after having no answer the first few times) was to say, #1 it's never gonna happen, and #2 if it does, I don't know- in any emergancy, one just acts, doesn't sit there to consider- from what I understand, one does what it takes to keep any life from being jeapardized! so, well enough said. My life too is devoted to scooping up animals and doctoring them and just doing what little I can with my little bit of resources! Please don't anyone be mad at me!

[trayi52]

LOL, Leslie, remember the joke about the cat and the little old lady? Something gave her a wish, I can't remember what, anywho, it turned her into a beautiful young woman, and she wished her cat to be turned into a man. So he was turned into this very handsome man, that would knock your eyes out of your head. Well he whispers to her, ''Now don't you wish you hadn't had me neutered?'' LOL, funny Leslie! ;)

Willie:D

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by trayi52
LOL, Leslie, remember the joke about the cat and the little old lady? Something gave her a wish, I can't remember what, anywho, it turned her into a beautiful young woman, and she wished her cat to be turned into a man. So he was turned into this very handsome man, that would knock your eyes out of your head. Well he whispers to her, ''Now don't you wish you hadn't had me neutered?'' LOL, funny Leslie! ;)

Willie:D

I just saw that on a birthday card this weekend, but it was an old lady and her poodle!!!

[leslie flenner]

Vaguely familiar. Yes! I don't know how many times we have talked about some people that would benefit and likely welcome a nueter! There should be a spay/nueter wagon available for people who are beyond their means with what they are careing for. I am really proud of a client of mine who, during the birth of her second child, had her tubes tied. She is on disability and always will be (I work with MH)- she had to have her life long cat put to sleep to get a 2-bedroom apt for this 2nd baby. I did not encourage or discourage her with her decisions- just steered her towards the local shelters and gave her as much emotional support as appropriate. Her kids are ok, I encourage counseling for the 2 year old all the time but she feels it's not necessary... Things could be worse in that household! She tries really hard to be a good mom and that's what counts in my book- she's not mean- maybe too lenient but always learning and willing to learn more.

[CountryWolf07]

Hmm I'm 19 - but I want to have kids.. one or two would be enough.. :)

I don't want to have kids til' I'm in my mid 20's, just right before I turn 30.

[leslie flenner]

Sounds like you're planning and that's great! Thinking ahead never hurt! Good luck! Babies are sweet!

[NoahsMommy]

Some people weren't put on this earth to procreate...its just that simple. Its a personal decision, just like YLL stated. You are wise beyond your years, my dear. :)

David and I have come to realize children most likely aren't in our future. If they are, they will be foster children or adopted children. There are many, many children without love and without homes, I'd rather be there for them than adding to the problem.

The same people that are "for" having children are quite often against adoption and that makes me mad. I could say that wanting to have your own child, when there are so many in need, is selfish. I can't even tell you how many people cringe when I say we're adopting if we have children.

It is a personal choice and no one should be criticized for it. The only time I have a problem with people having children is when they are unable to provide for them, be it financially or emotionally.

I have an 8 month old niece who I love dearly. She's a little angel and is fun to be around, but only for a short while. Having her in our lives is great, but reinerated our decision regarding children.

[dukedogsmom]

Noahsmommy, I think that is so great! I know there are so many unwanted kids out there. One of my friends from work had to have an emergency hysterectomy. She wanted kids so bad. I'm angry at her husband because he won't even consider adoption. He didn't want any unless they were his own. His arguement was that he didn't know how they were going to turn out. Well, he's got two in high school and they aren't the apple of his eye, let's say. I'm just really angry at him for being so selfish. It breaks my friend's heart not to have children. This is her first marriage and his second.

[ILoveReptiles]

http://www.caicos.org/images/awardswon/goldensnip.gif

*Proud that I earned that award...* ;)

Or in your client's case, leslie, she would win the "silver snip" award for reproductive responsibility.

I applaud anyone that looks at procreation responsibly. There are far too many people who just do it because "it's what you do" without thinking it through.

More people should adopt, I think.

[slick]

A funny thing happened at work yesterday.

This girl, I'll call her Jane Doe, just became a Grandma for the 2nd time. She had this whole album of pictures of the baby being born, etc etc etc and she literally went from desk to desk showing everyone.

She burst into my office and proceeded to assume that I wanted to see these pictures. I caved, and went goo-goo-ga-ga and said all the right things, all the while trying not to throw up at the sight of a newborn baby fresh out of the oven and not cleaned up yet...Yuck!!

The last picture was of the family dog. I went nuts over this little cutie-pie and at the end of the conversation she made a comment that I liked the dog better than the kid. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (which was true, by the way). She went off in a bit of a huff.....

One more black mark on my performance appraisal.....:rolleyes:

[ILoveReptiles]

Originally posted by slick
A funny thing happened at work yesterday.

This girl, I'll call her Jane Doe, just became a Grandma for the 2nd time. She had this whole album of pictures of the baby being born, etc etc etc and she literally went from desk to desk showing everyone.

She burst into my office and proceeded to assume that I wanted to see these pictures. I caved, and went goo-goo-ga-ga and said all the right things, all the while trying not to throw up at the sight of a newborn baby fresh out of the oven and not cleaned up yet...Yuck!!

The last picture was of the family dog. I went nuts over this little cutie-pie and at the end of the conversation she made a comment that I liked the dog better than the kid. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (which was true, by the way). She went off in a bit of a huff.....

One more black mark my performance appraisal.....:rolleyes:
:D That's funny! I just lost my job last week due to "restructuring" and I had to tolerate two co-workers who were completely obsessed with their offspring. It drove me up the wall - day in day out that's all they talked about. I got rather snappy near the end.

I'm glad to be out of that place and away from them.

I know what you mean about one more black mark. It's discrimination, and it is an outrage, but maybe some day people will realize that not everyone is going to go goo goo gaa gaa over their babies, or automatically think their kid is cuter than a little puppy...

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by slick
all the while trying not to throw up at the sight of a newborn baby fresh out of the oven and not cleaned up yet...
Well, I love babies, but THIS is a little much to put in an album for the office! IMO

The last picture was of the family dog. I have taken to keeping pictures of my kitties in my purse! Funny but I never carried pictures of my kids because EVERYONE had kid pictures and I figured people were bored with MY angels. I get some pretty fuuny looks when I whip out my current baby pictures!!:rolleyes:

[CathyBogart]

Sorry if that will affect you in the long run Slick, but I did find it rather comical. :) I've stopped even pretending anymore. I don't react negatively, I usually just smile and say something obvious like, "Wow, she's very small!" which seems to satisfy anyone who knows me. ^_^

[catland]

Originally posted by slick
A funny thing happened at work yesterday....

The last picture was of the family dog. I went nuts over this little cutie-pie and at the end of the conversation she made a comment that I liked the dog better than the kid. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: (which was true, by the way).

ok, in this vein I also have a similar story to share. I used to work with a woman who is my age who just oozes maternal instinct. She is a mother of one daughter (back then in her late teens), and absolutely loves and adores babies. Her computer monitor was bordered by baby pictures of the babies of co-workers.

Ok, so one day she found out that one of the women here was pregnant - not someone that I even knew very well. So she's telling me and another co-worker (much more like me and not maternal) - oh - did you know <> is pregnant?

We shared the identical reaction of "so?"

she repeated herself - "don't you understand - a BAAABBIIIIEEEE"

Once again our reaction was "so?"

then she said - "oh you two, if I had said puppies you both would have been so excited..."

This time our reaction was..."PUPPIIEEESSSSSSS:D :D :D "

[slick]

Originally posted by catland
then she said - "oh you two, if I had said puppies you both would have been so excited..."

This time our reaction was..."PUPPIIEEESSSSSSS:D :D :D "
:D :D That's too funny. You know the odd thing is that everyone here (up to the CEO) knows I'm an animal lover and I have one wall dedicated to animal pictures. (Bassett, Tubby and Peanut are up there :) ) I would think that that would be enough of an indication NOT to show me skin-kid pictures.

[dukedogsmom]

That is so funny! That would have been me as well. There's a couple in here that has to switch out their kids(he works days, her nights) and she always has to come by me and make me acknowledge the kids. "Say hello to Ms Val" Kind of gets on my nerves.

[Cincy'sMom]

Where I used to work, it was the same story. There were one or two with new babies, and they would bring them in. Some of would almost hide becuase we didn't want to have to goo goo and ga ga over the new baby...and I admit some of that reaction was a reflection of the parent's nt the kids, but still.

At the same time, we had a lot of back door meetings of any dogs. You got a new dog, it had to make an apperance. (Being a chemical manufactirer none of us wanted out dogs in there!)
Even the guy we came in once a week to pick up our methanol waste brough in his new pup! There was a couple other businesses in the same complex that had truck drivers that took their dogs onthe rode...we often snuck out to visit with them too and always knew when someone had gotten a new dog :)

[catland]

regarding the whole co-worker thing - I also think that a part of it depends on your relationship with a particular co-worker.

One woman here became a grandmother again a few months ago. She has a picture of the little guy as her wallpaper on her computer. Because I genuinely like this person, it was really easy for me to gush over her grandson.:)

But by the same token, she didn't force the picture on anyone, so that makes a difference too.

[captain]

To my fellow co-workers ..........Let me just say this

............. if you or your daughter, or your grandaughter gives birth to the most beautiful child on the planet, PLEASE DO NOT THINK I need to see the graphic "in situ" shots of the birth!!!! :eek:

Just the child please ........... and preferably, clean with clothes on!!! Not with the "aftermath".

Don't mind seeing the odd baby photo, but everyone I work with knows to show me their animals too!!! :)

[catnapper]

I had a horrible experience the other day when my little boy, Pouncer, fell off the roof and hurt his claw. I was a total and complete basket case. As I cried my heart out over a cat paw, I remembered this thread. I wanted to shout: THIS IS WHY I DON'T WANT HUMAN BABIES!!!

heee heeee. :D

[CathyBogart]

I'm exactly the same way! When Star had a minor injury that caused a lot of bleeding, I went BALLISTIC! :eek:

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by captain
............. if you or your daughter, or your grandaughter gives birth to the most beautiful child on the planet, PLEASE DO NOT THINK I need to see the graphic "in situ" shots of the birth!!!! :eek:



Captain, this is kind of funny. Yesterday, my girlfriend gave me her child's old carseat mirror..so that I can see my baby when the car seat is facing backwards....anyhow, I carried it in from her car, and my girl friend said, "oh, just wait til delivery and they have a mirror larger than a big screened tv...so you (meaning me) can watch the birth.."...I was like, "gross! why would I want to see that?" He he he...who knows, maybe I will change when the time comes, but, it seems kind of gross to me :eek:

[ramanth]

When a co-worker here had a baby, an email was sent out with a link to the babies picture so you had the option to look or not look. She never went around shoving it in peoples faces. A few weeks later she brought the baby to work and strolled past the offices. If you wanted to see the baby, you could intercept her, if not, she never bothered you. :)

But then again, that's just how Karin is. I'm sure there are some who can be just obnoxious with photos.

[Logan]

I remember when Helen was born that I was totally against filming the birth, so we didn't. The next morning, the nurse who had stayed with me the entire time brought me a photo album, filled with Polaroid pictures that she had snapped (I didn't remember her taking most of them). Unfortunately, some of them were a bit too graphic for me and I didn't want Helen to see them either, let alone anyone else! :eek: I'm with you, Johanna, I didn't need to see what was going on that bad!!!!

[All Creatures Great And Small]

You know, the conception of a child is a beautiful, natural thing too, but thank goodness nobody has ever seen fit to show me pictures or video of THAT! ;) :p :D I don't see any harm in taking videos or pictures during the birth, but I think they are intensely personal and should just be enjoyed by the mother and father. I was completely unconscious when my daughter was lifted out of my tummy, and that's fine with me - I don't feel like I missed anything.

We just had our office remodeled where I work, and instead of individual desks with cubicles, we now have one continuous U-shaped countertop. Each of us has a chair and a file cabinet and a little slice of Formica :rolleyes: . The bigwigs decided that everyone's "workspace" should look uniform and sterile, so they provided us with identical matching photo collage frames that we were allowed to use if we insisted on putting up PICTURES (God forbid) of our personal life. Well, of course my frame is filled with Sammy and Dudley, and the lady I share a desk with is currently childless but blessed with 3 kitties, so our workspace is the kitty palace! People have chuckled over the fact that we have no other "family" pictures up (although I did have pictures of my daughter at my desk when it was actually a desk :rolleyes: ). I just like to look at my kitties when I'm at work, because unlike my family, they relieve my stress, not contribute to it :D .

As far as why to have or not have children, I am one of those who had no maternal urges and was uncomfortable around babies and children. I was content being an auntie, but my husband was an only child of an only child, so he wanted to have at least one. We were at a point in our marriage where the choice had to be made, because he had said that if I didn't want any children he would have to think about divorcing me. I had told him from the beginning of our relationship that I didn't care for and didn't want any children, and he married me anyway, so did he think I was kidding?? Maybe he thought I would "outgrow" my attitude, I don't know. Anyway, divine providence stepped in right about then, and I "accidentally" became pregnant (carelessness on my part one night - 'nuff said).
I will admit I was VERY unhappy when I found out I was expecting, but I went ahead with it because it was pretty much my own fault and my husband was so happy about it. I wanted to be sterilized immediately following the birth, but my doctor was an (expletive deleted) and said he never sterilizes until after the second baby. :mad: I saw this doctor every year for the next ten years, and every year I reiterated my desire to be sterilized. I guess he finally realized I was serious the 10th time, so he finally did it. I think I adapted to motherhood pretty well, although if you ask YLL she'll tell you different ;) :D . She's right about the "bad genes" in our family too; almost every female on my mom's side of the family is mentally ill with either depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, you name it. YLL and I have so far managed to avoid the family curse, so I don't think her kids would get it, but who knows?

And one last observation - it seems so far that a lot of the "cat people" here prefer to not have children - wonder if there's some kind of correlation there?

[Tonya]

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
And one last observation - it seems so far that a lot of the "cat people" here prefer to not have children - wonder if there's some kind of correlation there?

Cats are mellow creatures...Kids aren't! lol.

I had pictures taken of Jaden's birth, but they were all black and white. I'm very glad I didn't take color photos.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Cataholic
"oh, just wait til delivery and they have a mirror larger than a big screened tv...so you (meaning me) can watch the birth.."...



If you check out the small print at the bottom it says, "Objects in this mirror are closer than you think"
:confused:

[emily_the_spoiled]

Being the oldest child in my family I had the opportunity to participate in "raising children" (a long story). But it did take care of that maternal urge. Right now I have no desire to have children (and haven't for many years). I am perfectly happy without the dirty diapers, midnight feedings, and the "joys" of teenagers... If I want that I can borrow my nieces and nephews for awhile :D

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

Originally posted by Cataholic
I have had many people tell me something magical happens when the baby is born, or placed in your arms for the first time. That alot of your fears disappear, and you just 'become'.

Johanna, I can tell you that is exactly what happened to me. I am on only child, and the youngest cousin in the family, so I NEVER had any experience at all of holding babies or babysitting when I was growing up. When my eldest was born it's like I downloaded a whole new set of software into my brain - I instinctivly knew what to do, and felt comfortable doing it!

My three are now 15; 14 and 12. so they are now at the age where I can go for a meal with hubby or friends, or leave the house and go out with the kids with very little planning. The days of prams and nappy bags are over. So I can relate to the "freedom"you have when you don't have kids. Make no mistake, it takes a BIG chunk out of your freedom when they are small - we didn't go on holiday for 7 years, because with school fees etc we couldn't afford it, and our old jalopy wouldn't have got us very far anyway!

I fully respect anyones decision NOT to have children. I don't expect everyone to own cats just because I do, so why should kids be any different? I would never ask someone why they didnt have kids.' I just respect the individuals right to choose!

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by NoahsMommy
Some people weren't put on this earth to procreate...its just that simple. Its a personal decision, just like YLL stated. You are wise beyond your years, my dear. :)

Aww, why thank you! Now I'm blushing. :o :o :D

[QueenScoopalot]

That just because some of us are CBC, doesn't mean we don't have the capacity for nurturing. I feel much more comfortable nurturing a litter of kittens needing bottle feeding. This makes me a mother to "fur kids". Or "feather kids" when the inevitable nestling falls out of a tree and with all the cats around here, its chances are not good without help sometimes. :) So we are all mothers & fathers in our own unique ways if you stop and think about it. Granted all I'll get for "Mother's Day" is more poop, and an occasional hairball, but all in all it's the same be it snake, lizard, dog...etc. We love what we have chosen to care for in our lives! ;) ;) ;) And the best part is, no back talk, clothes to buy (with the exception of doll clothes at yard sales to dress kittens in :D ) and no borrowing the car....and on, and on. The bills are probably much lower than raising a "skin kid". :) Jan (mom to too many now..yikes)

[carole]

Jan you are so right, whether you choose to nuture children or animals, it does not matter,but yes the latter is somewhat less expensive, and probably slightly less emotionally demanding, but regardless both are important roles in life.

[Glacier]

Originally posted by carole
Jan you are so right, whether you choose to nuture children or animals, it does not matter,but yes the latter is somewhat less expensive, and probably slightly less emotionally demanding, but regardless both are important roles in life.


I'm not so sure that animals are less expensive! Last year I spent 10 grand at the vet. Had it been a human child who needed medical attention, it wouldn't have cost me a dime! I'm a Canadian so medical care doesn't cost me directly from my wallet! I have a great benefit plan at work that covers dental, prescriptions, ect. Kids would be cheaper for me.....Course, my dogs will never need university tution either! ;)

[sirrahved]

IMHO, there should not be a debate about which is more important, which you should save in a fire. I can respect the fact that some don't want/like children, but children have souls and animals don't. When choosing a life that already exists, the child is more important!

[2kitties]

Originally posted by sirrahved
but children have souls and animals don't.
Woah.

[sirrahved]

??? It's the truth. You don't have to believe it...

[2kitties]

Truth according to "your version" of "your religion." Other than your religion, how do you know it to be true?
Not all Christians believe this to be true.

[sirrahved]

Like I said, you don't have to believe it. No one else has to believe it if they don't want to! I just know it's true! And if a Christian doesn't believe this, then they aren't interpreting the bible correctly, IMHO.

[Denyce]

Just wanted you to know I deleted that thread.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by sirrahved
but children have souls and animals don't.

:eek: WHAT?!?!?!?!?! :eek:

Every living creature has a soul. The thing that's inside our bodies that keeps us alive is our soul. Without our soul, we are *just* a body........not ourselves. Same with animals. If they didn't have a soul, they would be dead. Their souls may not be accountable for their deeds, etc. as our's are, according to most religious beliefs, but they STILL have a *soul*. I don't know how anyone could deny that.........its common sense.

As to saving an animal over a child in a burning building, that is just ridiculous. Saving a child is of course something one should do before going for the animals. I would try for both, but the child comes first.

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by sirrahved
but children have souls and animals don't.

That's absurd. :mad:


Every living creature has a soul. The thing that's inside our bodies that keeps us alive is our soul. Without our soul, we are *just* a body........not ourselves. Same with animals. If they didn't have a soul, they would be dead. Their souls may not be accountable for their deeds, etc. as our's are, according to most religious beliefs, but they STILL have a *soul*. I don't know how anyone could deny that.........its common sense.

Amen.

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by sirrahved
Like I said, you don't have to believe it. No one else has to believe it if they don't want to! I just know it's true! And if a Christian doesn't believe this, then they aren't interpreting the bible correctly, IMHO.

Oh and you are an expert on how the bible should be interpreted, huh? I definitely believe that animals have SOULS so I guess I'm not really a Christian. :rolleyes:

[sirrahved]

So can there be bad animals that go to hell?

I respect the fact that you have a different opinion. I just don't think you're right:)

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by sirrahved
So can there be bad animals that go to hell?


I don't believe in hell, so no, in my world bad animals don't go to hell. :rolleyes:

[Glacier]

So if animals don't have souls & those of us who believe they do are intrepreting the bible wrong....Then how you would explain this quote from Pope John Paul...

In a public audience on January 19th 1990 Pope John Paul II declared "Also the animals possess a soul, and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren." He went on to say all animals are "fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect." They are, he asserted, "as near to God as men are."

He pointed out that in Genesis "the way in which man was created suggests a relationship with the spirit or the breath of God. And one reads that after having created man from the dust of the earth, the Lord God 'breathed life into his nostrils and man became a living soul.'" He went on to say that animals have the breath of life and were given it by God. So, in this respect, man, created by the hand of God, is identical with all other living creatures.

this webpage has the full speech:
http://www.skepticfiles.org/krish/anima.htm

Just curious--I don't normally get involved in these types of issues, but I do firmly believe that animals have souls. If my dogs aren't waiting somewhere for me, then send me whereever they went!

[sirrahved]

I don't generally believe what the pope says (I'm not Catholic).

A soul implies eternal life. We have souls because we live or die eternally. Animals just cease to exist in my opinion.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by sirrahved
??? It's the truth. You don't have to believe it...



Sometimes, I think you post solely for the reason to get the rest of us fired up.

Your idea of 'truth' is not universally supported by all christians. It is one thing to espouse an opinion. It is quite another to espouse a 'fact'.

Though I confess to getting the Harris family confused....with your similar names and all, weren't you the one that was commenting on how unpleasant people were being to you? If so, do you not see how some of your comments just might make people a tad bit offended?

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by sirrahved
So can there be bad animals that go to hell?

I respect the fact that you have a different opinion. I just don't think you're right:)

Uh.........just because they have a soul doesn't mean their soul is accountable for what they do, as they don't have the understanding of right and wrong as we do. Animals in this world HAVE a soul.............if they didn't, they would just be a dead body. The souls of mankind will be questioned. Animals won't from my religious beliefs, but they still have a SOUL.

[sirrahved]

CAN EVERYONE HEAR ME???????


I SAID they were my opinions. I've continued to post because people have continued to say how wrong I am. I have maintained that they are opinions.

I BELIEVE THEM TO BE FACT.

But I have clearly said EVERY TIME that they are my opinions. EVERY TIME! I'm assuming that you didn't see the post totally attacking me?

I never said ANYTHING negative about anyone. JUST STATING WHAT I BELIEVE!

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

Originally posted by sirrahved
Animals just cease to exist in my opinion.

Personally I am looking forward to being re-united with all my RB pets one day.

I can't say it better than Pops already did:

Every living creature has a soul. The thing that's inside our bodies that keeps us alive is our soul. Without our soul, we are *just* a body........not ourselves. Same with animals. If they didn't have a soul, they would be dead. Their souls may not be accountable for their deeds, etc. as our's are, according to most religious beliefs, but they STILL have a *soul*. I don't know how anyone could deny that.........its common sense.

[Cataholic]

Who was it that said, "Me thinketh the lady doth protest too much?"

[Desert Arabian]

Glacier, that is really interesting! I never knew any of that, since I'm not religious. :o



A soul implies eternal life. We have souls because we live or die eternally. Animals just cease to exist in my opinion.

So, how come people can have eternal life but animals can't!? Is it because we are humans and think we get to decide what we can do and what others can't!? :confused: (Remember, I am not religious, so I don' follow up on any of this....)



Sometimes, I think you post solely for the reason to get the rest of us fired up.

Your idea of 'truth' is not universally supported by all christians. It is one thing to espouse an opinion. It is quite another to espouse a 'fact'.

Though I confess to getting the Harris family confused....with your similar names and all, weren't you the one that was commenting on how unpleasant people were being to you? If so, do you not see how some of your comments just might make people a tad bit offended?

I agree with you Johanna! 100%

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

The book of Genesis tells us that animals were expressly created by God as companions for human beings.

Those who understand that God's love and care extends to all creatures are often challenged by religious people who insist that the concern for animals is a secular issue. Their insistence is easy to understand. Although the bible has a great deal to say about God's concern for animals, and the relationship between human and animal beings, this subject has been ignored. With very few exceptions, neither rabbis, ministers, theologians, nor biblical exegetes have braved the chauvinism of human bias. A bias which sees its own species as the center--and the circumference--of God's concern.

This bias continues in spite of the fact that the Bible depicts the spiritual journey of animals just as surely as it describes the human journey. The scriptures trace their story from the time of creation, through their sojourn in a fallen world, to a millennial world they will share with their human companions. And in the book of Revelation, both wild and domestic animals are shown in heavenly places, praising God for their redemption.

The rest of this article can be found here (http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/hraanimal.htm)

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by sirrahved
IMHO, there should not be a debate about which is more important, which you should save in a fire. I can respect the fact that some don't want/like children, but children have souls and animals don't. When choosing a life that already exists, the child is more important!

You said that in your opinion there should be no debate. You said that animals have no soul as though it was fact. I agree with Johana, you seem to post for the sole purpose of upsetting people and getting a negative reaction. Well, you've got your negative reactrion, and you've changed this thrad from an open discussion into an argument.

Why should it matter to you if someone else feels that all lives are equal, and one species should nt be valued over another? You aren't going to change any minds, so this is one point where we need to agree to disagree.

Go start another religious argument thread if that's what you want to have.

[Uabassoon]

??? It's the truth. You don't have to believe it...

Yes, we can hear you. You didn't say it was your opinion, you said it was the truth. HUGE difference.


I BELIEVE THEM TO BE FACT.

Anything can be a fact, but that doesn't mean it's the truth. I can say the sky is purple and that would be a fact. A wrong fact, but still a fact. Just because you believe something to be true doesn't mean that it's THE truth. No one knows everything, for all I know you could be right and I could be wrong. But I know I would never run around telling people MY beliefs were the truth since they are only MY truths.

[Kfamr]

EESH!! This lady....... wow... :eek:

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Originally posted by sirrahved
CAN EVERYONE HEAR ME???????


Sadly, yes. :p

You didn't originally say it was your opinion, you said it was "the truth". Not the same thing. You didn't say "my opinion is that it's the truth", you said, "it's the truth". I have no religious beliefs at all here, no opinions on who or what has or doesn't have a soul, but I feel very strongly about people expressing themselves and then not having the b**ls to admit what they really said, instead of backpedaling and indignantly claiming to be misunderstood.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Who was it that said, "Me thinketh the lady doth protest too much?"
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
William Shakespeare, from Hamlet



:rolleyes: I should not be here in the DogHouse but could not resist answering that one because I knew the answer!!:D

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
William Shakespeare, from Hamlet



:rolleyes: I should not be here in the DogHouse but could not resist answering that one because I knew the answer!!:D

Yeah, I guess I tried to mix American NEW English with real Old English...I never was much for the arts...sadly, it shows.

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Yeah, I guess I tried to mix American NEW English with real Old English...I never was much for the arts...sadly, it shows.
:D :D I have a BA in Literature - and was so excited to know the answer to something for a change!!:rolleyes:

[dukedogsmom]

Well, I'm one that believes that animals will be in Heaven with me. I have also prayed that every animal that has contacted my life in some way join me there. Duke, of course, will have a very special place there but all will be much loved and I'll finally be able to have all the animals I want. Someone a long time ago tried to tell me they won't be there but I believe that if that's what it takes to make me happy there, then they'll be there right beside me.

[trayi52]

I want to say one thing about wheather animals have souls, an whether they go to heaven, and thats if God don't let our pets go with us to heaven, then it would be such a dull and unhappy place for me.

Yesterday, I talk to a lady that is very religious, she lost her husband to cancer about two years ago, she said that about 2 or 3 months after her husband died, her beautiful German Shepard died too. She said this dog actually morned himself to death over her husband. He would howl everynight after the death of her husband. He had never done that before, ever! I told her the story of rainbow bridge and she took that to mean that her husband and that dog, and some of the other pets that was so dear to her and her husband were there waiting for her to come so they could all cross the bridge together into heaven. She was very tearful about this.


Her and her husband were unable to have children, these dogs were their children, the only children they ever knew. Now how could anybody tell her that those 'children were not at the bridge waiting with her late husband' for her to cross the bridge with them into heaven?

When your joys here on this earth involve dogs, cats, birds, and reptiles, etc, then how could you not have that joy in heaven too? To me I have to believe they will be there waiting for me.

If you believe there is no hell, then how can you believe there is a heaven? I hope and pray that our pets are in heaven waiting to greet us there. Now that would be heaven for certain to me.

Willie

[sirrahbed]

I know the Harris family gets confusing - let me clear it up:
Sirrahsim (Missy) is my daughter
Sirrahved (Devon) is my daughter-in-love
Sirrahbed is me and I am the MOM

Sirrahsim started the thread. Sirrahved is now hurting because she feels strongly about what she believes and will not back down. You may not like her or what she says, but that is no reason to say things that sound angry and make her sad. I feel that some of you were rather harsh to her. As for me, I got a PM that said I hurt feelings but it may have been for one of the girls or maybe it was for me, I duuno, but I did PM back and apologize. Maybe my "maternal" is coming out but I do not want to see my girls hurt. I do not want to hurt anyone!! Do any of you want to knowingly hurt someone with your words??

This thread is now so OFF TOPIC - can we get it back to where it was??

MISSY - do you think it might be a good idea to just delete the thread?? - it has been very interesting but maybe it has run too long....

[catnapper]

Originally posted by sirrahved
I SAID they were my opinions. I've continued to post because people have continued to say how wrong I am. I have maintained that they are opinions.

I agree that you have the right to state your opinion. That is what is great about a forum... you can state your beliefs.

HOWEVER, there are ways to say things that offers your opinion without insulting others. Its as simple as choice of phrase. A person can say the same thing in two different ways... one way will rile everyone up, another way will get people thinking.

I certainly don't want to insult you, your beliefs, or your intelligence. I just feel that with convictions as strong as yours, you need to temper what you say and how you say it or deal with the backlash that follows.

As for animals, I wholeheartedly feel they do have souls. I look into Nicki's eyes and see a soul as deep and beautiful as any human I've ever met. Pouncer's soul is so directly linked to my soul that I swear he reads my mind, and I his. I didn't hear him fall... I KNEW... how can you explain that? I honestly feel he called out to me with his soul to mine. Ok, ok, I'm getting deep here, but I steadfastly believe animals have souls.

[RICHARD]

DESCARTES AND THE ANIMAL MACHINE
Descartes's doctrine that animals are pure machines, while men are machines with minds, was in part a compromise between his scientific aims and his voluntaristic, Christian view of man. If biological phenomena could be included in the domain of his universal physics, then the boundary would no longer lie between inanimate and animate beings; physics would include all of nature except the mind of man. Harvey's discovery of the circulation of the blood encouraged Descartes to attempt a general mechanistic physiology in hydraulic terms. Descartes argued that most human motions do not depend on the mind and gave examples of physiological functions (such as digestion), reactions; (such as blinking, and feelings (such as passions) which occur independently of the will. In man, however, the mind could also direct the course of the fluid ("animal spirits") which controls movements.

However, to attribute minds to animals would threaten traditional religions beliefs, since the psychological concept of mind was conflated with the theological concept of soul. Descartes argued that it would be impious to imagine that animals have souls of the same order as men and that man has nothing more to hope for in the afterlife, than flies and ants have. Similarly, God could not allow sinless creatures to suffer; without souls, animals would not suffer, and man would be absolved from guilt for exploiting, killing and eating them. But he considered the most important reason for denying souls to animals to be their failure "to indicate either by voice or signs that which could be accounted for solely by thought and not by natural impulse" (letter to Henry More, February 1649). Thus, the use of language became the criterion of thought-"the true difference between man and beast." This argument has been accepted in much of the subsequent debate, and discussion has centered on the characteristics of a "true language."

It has often been suggested that Descartes was not consistent because occasionally he did ascribe mental functions to animals-sensation, imagination, passions, memory. Although some passages support this view, it seems clear that he attempted to maintain a rigid dualism by granting these functions to animals yet insisting that they were purely corporeal, while in man alone they had a mental counterpart; for instance, man had both corporeal and mental perceptions, and the dualism of mind and matter extended into his account of feelings. If attention is confined to the animal-machine hypothesis, it might therefore appear that there is little to choose between the Cartesian account and the views of his opponents, who did attribute mental functions to animals. The very extensive literature on the animal soul controversy lends support to this contention. However, the debate was not primarily about what animals could do but about the implications for man of various interpretations of their behavior. More generally, it concerned the adequacy of mechanistic explanation to account for biological and psychological phenomena.

Descartes excluded explanation by purpose (the "final causes" of the Aristotelian tradition) from physics and from biology. Yet mechanistic explanation was remarkably unsuccessful in accounting for biological phenomena without making some implicit or explicit appeal to concepts derived from mental intention or without postulating some intermediate substance or special vital force. The discontinuity in Cartesian metaphysics represented, then, a highly unstable compromise. The application of mechanism to animals and to the human body had considerable utility as an alternative to animistic explanation in physiology, but the demands of functional explanation in biology made it ultimately untenable. Science, the analogy between animals and men, and common sense called for a continuity which metaphysics and theology denied.
-------------------------------------------


I'm taking a chance by putting Descartes before the horse....

[Kfamr]

Sirrahbed --


I understand she is a part of your family and all.. but she was way harsh in how she expressed some of her opinions. I can't even respond to the thing about animals not having souls... I find that amazingly ironic and shocking to see on a Pet-Loving forum.

If she's able to dish such harshness out, she should be able to learn and recieve such as well.

[catnapper]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
You may not like her or what she says, but that is no reason to say things that sound angry and make her sad. I feel that some of you were rather harsh to her.

Do any of you want to knowingly hurt someone with your words??



Yes! I agree... I did think a few people were rather harsh. I think somethimes people forget to be polite here. I read and re-read all of my posts looking for anything that might be insulting. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I'm not.

Devon, I am sorry that you are insulted. I think that it is admirable that you feel as stronlgly as you do. Whether you are right or wrong is something we'll never ever know. Religion has been argued for centuries and nobody has ever come up with the exact right answer.

this has been an interesting thread and I hate to see it digress now. :(

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by trayi52
I want to say one thing about wheather animals have souls, an whether they go to heaven, and thats if God don't let our pets go with us to heaven, then it would be such a dull and unhappy place for me.

This thread has gone haywire - but while it still lives -I want to comment on this because we just talked about this (I started it in fact) on Cat General. I am a Christian and believe in the Bible. The scriptures are not really very clear about what heaven is like. But, God DID say it would be perfect and without sin. I read nowhere that says animals do *not* have souls. That is an interpretation. I read they are living things and were created separately from inamimate objects and on a separate day. I understand they do not need to have forgiveness from sin or salvation, so in that sense they would not have the same soul that a human has - but they are not like trees and rocks, etc. (pretty much like Pops said) I have every reason to believe I will be surrounded by many animals in heaven. They were created for our happiness. Why, if God created them for our happiness or earth, would they not be with us in heaven?? I believe they WILL be there! It is something I have been thinking about all week! I suppose some Christians would argue it would not be MY animals, but I choose to believe it will be. The Bible is not clear. We'll know when we get there and it will be *PERFECT*.

[trayi52]

Debbie, I hope I did not hurt sirrahveds feelings, if I did, I certainly didn't mean to. Sirrahved, if I hurt your feeling I am deeply sorry, and hope you will accept my sincere apolgy. You too Debbie, I don't want to hurt any of your girls.

Willie

[RICHARD]

An observation....


We were all children at one time, What happened?;)

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by RICHARD
An observation....

We were all children at one time, What happened?;)
Not much, we still fight on the playground, only now we call it *discussion*:rolleyes: We are still children, i think.
And your point is....

oh wait ..RICHARD!!!...no *point* necessary:D :p

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by sirrahbed


oh wait ..RICHARD!!!...no *point* necessary:D :p

Where would I put my hat then?:cool:

[sirrahved]

I feel exactly the way mom feels....

A soul is for humans only it is what is judged-- but animals may be in heaven. They just can't get damned.

And now that I've clarified, I don't need to say any more.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by sirrahved
I feel exactly the way mom feels....

A soul is for humans only it is what is judged-- but animals may be in heaven. They just can't get damned.

And now that I've clarified, I don't need to say any more.

Even though, I disagree, you have stated you opinions nicely, in a way that doesn't inflame or hurt feelings. I like you. :)

[ILoveReptiles]

I refrain from comment, because I know my religious views, or lack thereof, would only add fuel to the fire, and I choose to disregard the religious turn this thread has taken.

Let's get back to the original topic, please...

[CathyBogart]

Righto ILR!

I spoke to a few of my childfree teachers this week about their decisions not to have children, and one of them said something very touching to me. "By teaching, I get to touch and help shape the lives if THOUSANDS of children, rather than just one!"

She's one of my favorite teachers of all time, and hearing her say something like that was just icing on the cake! What an awesome lady! ^_^

[trayi52]

WolfChan, isn't that the truth!!?? That is exactly what she is doing. What a great calling she has! She gets to help shape a human beings life.

Oh, thats good, WolfChan, very good, I could agree more. She certainly has a lot of children. Every year they change and more lives come in for her to shape and mold. Sometimes a teacher can get through to a child when the parent cannot.

Willie

[CathyBogart]

Very true!! I was much more inclined to listen to a few teachers in particular when I was growing up, mostly because I DIDN'T have to spend every day with them!

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by trayi52
Sometimes a teacher can get through to a child when the parent cannot.

I sure agree with that statement. I have very good memories of one specific teacher who made me feel it was OK to sing out:D My hubby is a teacher and I know it means a great deal to him when his "kids" remember him as being a good teacher.

[shais_mom]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
I know the Harris family gets confusing - let me clear it up:
Sirrahsim (Missy) is my daughter
Sirrahved (Devon) is my daughter-in-love
Sirrahbed is me and I am the MOM



what is a daughter in love?


seriously I am not trying to be the big B word!! I just wondered if she was engaged to your son???? or I am offffff the walllll.

[shais_mom]

wow
my what happened!!!
I just read thru this and I commented then thought better of it then deleted it.
All I am going to say is that saying that animals don't have souls hurts *me*. B/c I have looked into the eyes of animals that have been abused and now are loved. I think that My little Kylie Kat is one of the most beautiful little souls ever.
If my animals aren't in heaven then I don't want to be there.
If they aren't any animals in heaven then there are going to be a looooottt of unhappy people!

[Fallon]

I certainly do believe that animals have souls. If you look at their expressions you can read their thoughts and see deeper into their minds, thus revealing their souls. They can tell us things in such explicitly displayed methods that most humans cannot.

[Twisterdog]

I know the Harris family gets confusing - let me clear it up:
Sirrahsim (Missy) is my daughter
Sirrahved (Devon) is my daughter-in-love
Sirrahbed is me and I am the MOM

Interesting! I guess I don't pay much attention, or maybe I only read the first few letters of a name ... but I really thought there was only ONE Sirrah... person! Dumb me!! LOL! :D

Wow ... this thread has gotten WAY off-topic .... from why people choose not to have children, to whether or not animals have souls. And, for once, I am NOT to blame for it! :D

[popcornbird]

Hey! I think I finally figured out the Sirrah family user names! I was incredibly confused by them for months, but now I think I get it. Someone, tell me if I'm right! :p

Their last name's Harris........(Sirrah backwards), and the rest of their user name is the first three letters of their names backwards. Like Debbie's is *bed* (opposite or deb), and Missy's is *sim* (opposite of mis), and Devon's is *ved* (opposite of dev). So Sirrahbed is really *DebHarris* backwards, and SirrahSim is really *MisHarris* backwards, and Sirrahved is really *DevHarris* backwards! I think I got it! Am I correct? :p It took a lot of observation to figure that out! LOL!

I was wondering if *Daughter-in-love* was your way of saying daughter-in-law? :confused: Another Sirrah confusion!

[trayi52]

Yes, thats it Poppy, and I think the way Debbie described her daughter-in-law is really very sweet. Daughter-in-love, sounds really sweet, may everbody end up with such a sweet mother-in-law as Debbie is to hers.

Now back to the program, commercial is now over, LOL!:)

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Hey! I think I finally figured out the Sirrah family user names! ... It took a lot of observation to figure that out!

Wow .. that WAS pretty observant of you! I'm impressed! I wasn't even observant enough to notice that they were three people instead of one person! LOL!

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Hey! I think I finally figured out the Sirrah family user names!
CONGRATULATIONS POPPY!
You are exactly right! Screen names were getting so hard to make up that I started the backwards thing years ago, then Missy did it also before she got married but she still uses it:D
Daughter-in-love is just something I made up instead of daughter-in-law which sounds so impersonal for someone who is part of my family. In LAW sounds ....legal!:p

sheesh - I don't even remember what this thread was about!!!

I DO know that I am not going to spend so much time in the DogHouse though:rolleyes: Most of it has been nice - getting to hear views from people I would never have a chance to otherwise dialog with, but...well....SHEESH!!

[shais_mom]

Originally posted by sirrahbed


I DO know that I am not going to spend so much time in the DogHouse though:rolleyes: Most of it has been nice - getting to hear views from people I would never have a chance to otherwise dialog with, but...well....SHEESH!! [/B]

ppsst
Debbie
You are allowed to go wherever you feel comfortable on this board!!! So be not afraid!!! ;)
And You're invited to the meeting toooooo!!!!!

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by sirrahbed
CONGRATULATIONS POPPY!
You are exactly right!

Yippee! :D I knew I was smart! ;) LOL



sheesh - I don't even remember what this thread was about!!!


Well it went through several phases, but it is now about YOU (and your family)!! :D Hehehe...

[Vio&Juni]

Since almost the beginning of this thread there is a thing that is bothering me and I wanted to keep it for myself (knowing what a war I could start with it), but I decided I have to say it. If it is a discussion, then you have to discuss all its aspects.

How on earth a woman that cannot stand kids, could think of adopting or fostering a child?! The unpleasant aspect of raising kids can be dealt with only love for the children and, in my opinion, with the instinct of protecting your offsprings that only arises when you give birth. I know, there are woman that could do just the same for the kids as if they were her own, but NOT THOSE THAT CANNOT STAND CHILDREN. If I worked for the social service, I would be very selective with prospective parents and one of my main issue would be: WHY they have no kids?

I respect the right to chose if one wants to have children or not. It is not about it. It is right to have them and it is right not to have them. It's one's choice. To be honest with yourself and the world it's the hardest thing.

I am sure, a lot of you will be upset at me. Please be. This is my opinion, and when I have an opinion it's not only that I WANT TO HAVE AN OPINION OF MY OWN, but it is based on something. I've grown to my opinion.

And I hope Missy will delete this thread, even if it is in the Dog House. There were some things said that give me goosebumps.

[Cataholic]

Mom Harris,
I think it is amazing you remain so calm on a thread where there have been 'attacks' against your family. You still post with maturity and kindness, while letting us know you don't appreciate the words some of us use- like me. While I don't like to hurt people with my words (or my fists), it is hard for me to just let some things go. I think if some people throw flames at me, and my beliefs (animals being in Heaven), then, they should expect, or at least accept, me throwing flames back. Is it mature? Possibly not, but, hurtful talk is hurtful talk- no matter who it comes from. To maintain a position of religious superiority while throwing barbs is just plain wrong. :(

[aly]

Originally posted by Vio&Juni

How on earth a woman that cannot stand kids, could think of adopting or fostering a child?! The unpleasant aspect of raising kids can be dealt with only love for the children and, in my opinion, with the instinct of protecting your offsprings that only arises when you give birth. I know, there are woman that could do just the same for the kids as if they were her own, but NOT THOSE THAT CANNOT STAND CHILDREN. If I worked for the social service, I would be very selective with prospective parents and one of my main issue would be: WHY they have no kids?


There were some things said that give me goosebumps.

I totally agree with you. That is a very valid point that kept running across my mind too. I hear horror stories about foster homes where the children are neglected/abused/not loved or cared for. Not saying anyone on PT would do that, but its just so sad to me.

I got pretty freaked out over a lot of things said in this thread too. That is why I haven't posted until now. There were some terrible things said in another related thread here in the Dog House, but I guess those were deleted along with my reply.

[jonza]

I personally think that it's undeniable and obvious that animals have souls. Just look at them. Check out their behavior patterns, look into their eyes. Notice how they react when hurt or abused, or cuddled and loved. Isn't that enough to persuade any sane, intelligent person?

… and, since this thread has got well and truly confused, I feel free to state another FACT:

MY CAT IS MORE INTELLIGENT THAN THE MAJORITY OF HUMAN BEINGS.


This must be a fact because I believe it! :D

[Denyce]

:D :D :D

Oh you funny!

Denyce

[sirrahbed]

Originally posted by Cataholic
"oh, just wait til delivery and they have a mirror larger than a big screened tv...so you (meaning me) can watch the birth.."...I was like, "gross! why would I want to see that?" He he he...who knows, maybe I will change when the time comes, but, it seems kind of gross to me :eek:

Just reviewing and found this! Now remember I am an RN, have worked L&D, yes and Lit teacher too - went through degree collecting stage - "finding myself" (now home kitty mom) so anything medical fascinates me but personally I really liked having the mirrors! I also like watching births on Health TV or whatever you call it. For one thing, it takes your mind off some of the action (if you are the laboring mom) and the whole thing is utterly fascinating! I mean, don't you gasp in wonder at watching puppies and kitties being born? I have only seen it on Animal Planet but it is great! Now as far as sharing these photos etc at the office - Uh-Uh. Johanna - when your time comes - I hope you at least give the mirrors a try - they do help you to focus on the birth and OFF the contractions, etc and really participate in the delivery! (think about it:D ) It's not gross, no way. All NORMAL & NATURAL

[trayi52]

Oh, Debbie I agree! I got to watch my youngest be born, I loved It. I even got to watch my youngest granddaughter be born! Guess what she came out looking at me! I swear she did.

I have seen a little bit of everything be born, and helped with the births, from kittens, puppies, calves, colts and I don't remember all, I was born on a farm and there were births of all kinds going on.

But of course it is your decision, they put me to sleep with my first two births, or something that makes you forget everything. Wake up and you got a baby. LOL, but Johanna, at least have the mirror there in case you want to open your eyes and get a little glipsey at that beautiful little boy entering the world. You don't have to look.

Willie:)

[nibblets]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
I can't really give you much more straight of an answer; I just don't like kids. Period. No offense, but they just don't 'appeal' to me. Even when I was a *wee* little girl, I had no interest in babies, just animals; according to my parents. :)

I respect the honesty of that answer! Not everyone is cut out for or obligated to have kids. There are far too many kids out there these days with parents who should have refrained from having them.

I work with a couple of different people who have made the choice to have animals rather than children...it works great for them. They love their animals as much as anyone else I know loves their kids.
Knowing both of these women, I think they both made the right choices. I really can't see either of them with children. They are great women...they just don't feel that need to raise a child.

[trayi52]

I agree with you nibblets, just because you chose not to have children, it sure doesn't mean your a lesser person. Like you, I know some wonderful people that chose not to have children. You could not ask for better people than they are!

Willie:)

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by nibblets
I respect the honesty of that answer!

Thank You! :)
Now, if only some of my friends/family members could understand that. "You're still young...I'm almost positive you'll change your mind." NO, I won't! I'll stick with Dogs- please! ;)

[RICHARD]

lol,

This ticked me off..

I listen to dr. Laura every so often......it's the best comedy show on the radio....for everyone else...She is a judgemental radio wanna be doctor..her degree is in biology-she dispenses advice on personal problems

Anywho,

a woman called about and 18 month old child who was being baby-sat (?) by her brother....the kid broke a 1200 dollar vase.

The brother wants his sister to pay for the vase. While describing the brother the woman said he was 40, single, had never married and had no children..

The 'good' doctor made a comment like, "oh he's really strange"-

I understand why people would want not to have children- I, for a long time wanted children. But that soon burned out of me, for personal reasons.

To me it's like Coke or Pepsi, either or, I like Coke, I like Pepsi.....it's a personal taste.

It does not make me any less of a person if I do not have kids, It does not make me any more of a person if I did.

----------------------------------

When I worked next to the Labor and Delivery rooms
I heard the screaming, yelling and cursing that went on.....

My best friend went thru labor for 20 some hours before a C-section....
:eek:

-----------------------------------

I have enough problems taking care of myself.

[cali]

I adore kids and I am very good with them, actually my friend on the phon just finnished syaing I should be a child counclier because I am really good at making kids feel better about themselves etc. and even over the winter a little girl did not want to give her sister a chance with the sled, I went over had a little friendly, not stern or angry or demading at all, just told her politly to give her sister a chance with the sled, and she said ok, and happily gave the sled to her sister lol now even though I am great with kids I really dont want one myself. now I would love to work with kids when I am older, but I would never want one myself.

[Sirrahsim]

In case anyone was wondering, I'm still here, just quietly watching all of the drama. I think there is a lot of good information in the first half or so of this thread and it would be a shame to delete it, perhaps I can get Karen to lock it instead? There have been many people who really opened up on this thread, some feelings were hurt, and yes many barbs were thrown on this thread as well as by PM. It is sad that threads which bring together people of different backgrounds and opinions often digress into arguing*sigh* but I suppose that's just how it is and always will be. Whatever you believe in, cling to that and be strong. No one should be able to change your opinion but yourself:)

[Karen]

Closing this thread as requested by its originator.