Banning docking of tails......in nz....

[carole]

This is the first time I have ever posted on the dog site, but thought this might be something worth debating.

At the moment in New Zealand they are proposing to put a bill throught parliment to ban the docking of dog's tails, they say its cruel and un-necessary, of course dog owner's are up in arm's about this, stating the reasons for it etc.

I am interested in your points of view, most dogs are done as puppies, infact to do it older is very painful,(this is what the article said), so do you have a dog with a docked tail? do you consider it cruel?

I have no opinion on this (for a change) lol, not knowing anything about it at all or owning a doggie!

[Kfamr]

I wish they'd bann them here, and bann ear cropping!!

[Foam]

I have nothing against tail docking/ear cropping so I guess I disagree with that new bill. How are they going to show the dogs that need their ears cropped in show if they ban ear cropping?
Tail docking is a big one though..I do not think it's required to have a dog's tail docked in show. Dogs such as Border Collies, Aussies, and other dogs get their tails docked as pups because they can get so pumped up they can actually injure the tail.
So, please keep us updated if anything happens. :)

[carole]

I have not heard of ear cropping Kay-ann, why do they do that? of course we could carry it further, our lambs and cows have their tails docked, to keep them clean etc, but is that cruel as well? it was not always done, as I grew up on a farm, we never docked our cows, but now everyone seems to.

[carole]

I Will follow the news and see what happens with it, actually its one of my local mps who I have met that is trying to push the bill through, be interesting to see what happens, we have many changes happening in our country, would not suprise me if this goes ahead, soon we will have no rights it seems, like I said I am not for or against it, as I am not informed enough to have an opinion, but it seems everything is subject to legislation these days.

[binka_nugget]

I think ear cropping for the most part, is a cosmetic thing. Tail cropping on the other hand, I'm iffy about. I've heard of some breeds being known for clearing coffee tables, giving bruises and hurting their own tail. If that was the reason for the docking, I support it. If it's for a cosmetic purpose, I'm against it.

[Foam]

Oh on ALL animals? I thought you meat just dogs because it was in Dog General. :p
Yeah, I think tail docking on sheep and cows is cruel. Why? Just to keep them clean? You don't give them baths normally anyways, right?

Carole, ear cropping is a surgically done procedure that cuts off some cardilage (sp?) of the ear to make it stand erect in stead of flopped. After surgery, the ears are taped for however long to keep the ers in place. As a result, the ears look like this:
http://www.manchesterterrier.org/images/Standard_Manchester_Terrier_with_cropped_ears.jpg
http://www.hildydanekennels.com.au/images/magnus1.jpg

It is normally done for show. Pit Bulls, Great danes, Dobes, Shnauzers, Boxers, and other breeds usually have it done.
I hope I eplained it right. :p

[carole]

Foam the ban is being proposed just for Dogs, not all animals, the point I am making is why not all animals, what is different about dogs than cows or sheep (if it is indeed cruel) I think the idea for sheep and cows is to prevent faecal matter clumping in that area, and them getting fly blown, that's what I mean about keeping clean, but still the poor things cannot swat the flys away with such a short tail.

eewh I think ear -cropping is ghastly!!!

[Moose]

I honestly don't see the point of it...what's wrong with a natural tail or natural ears?

While looking through some Doberman rescue sites, I came across plenty of Dobies with natural tails and ears...and I thought they looked gorgeous. I, personally, prefer the natural idea. :)

The only way I really condone any docking or cropping is if it is for a clear medical/health purpose.

[Foam]

Oh..haha once again I am lost. :o

Ear cropping is normally only done for showing dogs, but when it is done only for appearance (as Ashley said) I think it's cruel. It doesn't effect the dog's hearing though.

[Dobiegirl24]

I wish they would ban both ear cropping and dail docking in the US. I think both are pretty much for cosmetic purpose and unnecasary. Althought docking I'm less worried about as some dogs(that are normally docked, but have been left natural) seriously hurt their tails and have to have them docked when they are older because of the injury and it is much more painful then

[dukedogsmom]

The "show people" need to be educated enough to realise that dogs shouldn't have to go through that just because they think it looks good. If I had to do that to my dog just to show him, he wouldn't be shown. I think it's vain and I think the law should be passed in U.S. for tails and ears. If there were truly health problems, that's the only way I'd consider it.

[cocker_luva]

im neutral about the subject. i personally like the look of...

cropped
dobie
pit bull
argentine dogo
great dane
boxer

docked
cocker spaniel
rottie
boxer
dobie

[Kfamr]

I like the all natural, especially my Pitties.

Much, Much cuter with floppy ears and a wagging tail!

I HATE cropped ears. It's completely unnecesary.

Docking of tails atleast has a tiny bit of reasoning.

[K9soul]

There are some legitimate reasons for tail docking, I guess especially on some sporting/hunting breeds, but if it isn't going to serve a specific function I would rather see a natural tail.

Ear cropping I totally don't like or agree with. The UKC does not crop their dogs' ears even for the show ring. I know it used to be done in some fighting dogs to help prevent an ear getting bitten or torn, easier for a dog to grab ahold of a floppy ear and very painful as a lot of nerves in the ears. I much prefer natural ears. I think some people get used to seeing the prick ears and like them better. Just as if I suddenly saw a purebred German shepherd with floppy ears I probably wouldn't prefer it over pricked ears, but a GSD ears are natural and that is the key. It isn't natural, there's no reason other than cosmetics, unless a dog is going to be fighting... and if that's going to be happening that's a whole other much more serious issue.

[Moose]

Look at how adorable this Dobie is with ALL natural ears and tail!
http://korax.hemsida.net/galleri/medium/m_Valla_sitt.JPG
http://korax.hemsida.net/galleri/medium/m_korax_sta.jpg
http://korax.hemsida.net/galleri/medium/m_Herrevad_1x.jpg

[dukedogsmom]

Absolutely beautiful!

[clara4457]

Originally posted by Foam
Oh..haha once again I am lost. :o

Ear cropping is normally only done for showing dogs, but when it is done only for appearance (as Ashley said) I think it's cruel. It doesn't effect the dog's hearing though.

So what is the difference? Isn't it done on show dogs for the sake of appearance? How can it be a breed standard if it is done surgically? Shouldn't breed standards be how the breed is naturally? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

I don't believe in ear cropping or tail docking. In my opinion, the argument made that they could have a future injury to their tail is ridiculous. It is the equivilent of amputating everyones big toe because one day some people might stub it and it could get infected.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by clara4457
So what is the difference? Isn't it done on show dogs for the sake of appearance? How can it be a breed standard if it is done surgically? Shouldn't breed standards be how the breed is naturally? Makes absolutely no sense to me.


I TOTALLY AGREE!

I hate tail docking and ear cropping with a passion. IMO, dogs look much better without it.

I'm sure ear cropping is painful after surgery, and complications can occur. I think any "disfiguring" to a dog is unnecessary, besides spaying and neutering of course.

[Amber]

I think people should just keep the natural look, its way cuter, and less painful.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by Foam
Dogs such as Border Collies, Aussies, and other dogs get their tails docked as pups because they can get so pumped up they can actually injure the tail.
So, please keep us updated if anything happens. :)

I've never heard of border collies getting docked as puppies to prevent tail injuries. ??

And most aussies are born with natural bobbed tails, no docking involved.

There are many many breeds that are prone to "happy tail" great danes, and grey hounds being two of them, and they are not normally docked breeds.

That being said. I am not against either tail docking or ear cropping. Yes it is for looks only. But I like how it looks.

[K9soul]

I can't help but find it upsetting that we mutilate a creature because we like how it looks. It isn't like cutting their hair a certain way, or their nails. We are cutting through their flesh and bone, for no other reason other than for looks...

I really really try to be open minded on issues, but this one I just can't. We are slicing off pieces of their body for a look. It's not like spaying or neutering that prevents unwanted puppies and reduces risk of cancer, etc.

[dukedogsmom]

I totally agree! Like I said, it's very vain to do it just because "you like how it looks". I find that very disturbing. Maybe we need to move this to the dog house.

[Uabassoon]

How are they going to show the dogs that need their ears cropped in show if they ban ear cropping?

Then the shows in NZ will allow animals with natural tails and ears to be entered in shows.

[KYS]

I agree with K9soul,
If their is a legitimate reason for docking the tail
that is not cosmetic, than it does not bother me.

Cosmetic reasons for ears and tail, I say, go natural. :)

[Foam]

Clara-- It isn't the breed standard, it's the way the breed is shown. For apperance in the /show ring./ :)
Shelteez-- Border Collie Rescue in Arizona has docked a few tails due to injury. I've seen plenty of Border Collies with docked tails.
Carole-- I see. That's good. :)

It's not like I'm against natural ways, I'm just trying to explain the way it is in the show ring, and the standards there.

[GSDgurl]

I see nothing wrong with docking or cropping. Yes, it is a procedure done for looks, the show ring, n' for the protection of some breeds.

I see no reason in trying to change something that is done in so many breeds for so many years....I just can't see it happening.

Docking is done when a puppy is around 3 to 4 days of age. Cropping is done at around 7-9weeks...depending on the weight n' size of the puppy.

I got my Dobermans ears cropped at 8 weeks. When he came home he was in NO pain at ALL. The post may bother them for a while, but they get use to it. I don't see were this is a cruel or mean practice at all, but then that is MY opinion.

That being said....I like the looks of cropping n' docking. I just don't see a group of people trying to change everyone's minds about the procedure.

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by K9soul
There are some legitimate reasons for tail docking, I guess especially on some sporting/hunting breeds, but if it isn't going to serve a specific function I would rather see a natural tail.

Ear cropping I totally don't like or agree with.


I agree.


The old docking/cropping debate again. Here's my two cents worth ....


Tail docking is done at a VERY young age. I've seen it done, plenty of times. It is done before the cartlidge in the tail hardens. It is NOT torture or agony. It is just like getting a human baby boy circumcised. Not totally medically necessary, but not cruel and evil, either. And done so quickly at such a young age that it is forgotten in less than a minute.

There ARE legitimate reasons for docking tails, although most is done for cosmetic reasons. Some hunting dogs, terriers, some herding dogs have all traditionally had their tails docked for real, working reasons.

I own eight dogs that "should" have their tails docked, according to tradition or breed standard - a cocker spaniel, an ACD, and six terriers. Of the eight, only four have actually had their tails docked, all before I got them. I like the look of docked tails on my terriers MUCH better than natural tails. However, I don't like it so much that I would cut off one of their tails as adults. I'm glad they had it done as puppies, though. And I'm SO glad that my cocker had her tail done. Sorry, a cocker with a tail looks like a mutt to me.

And another thing I'd like to mention ... tail docking does NOT mean cutting the dog's tail completely off. It mean shortening the tail. My dogs with cropped tails all have tails, they are simply a few inches shorter than the dogs with natural tails. If you ever see a dog whose docked tail is pretty much gone, then the vet doing the crop did not know what he was doing. Dogs with docked tails still have tails, just shorter tails.

Getting a puppy's tail docked is like getting a baby's ears pierced. It's purely cosmetic, and the baby cries for a minute. Right? Same with puppies. Are you a cruel and mean parent if you get your baby's ears pierced? No.

Now ear cropping is a different story, IMO. It is a much more involved, painful procedure with a much higher risk of infection, done when the puppy is much older, or even adult. There is NO legimate reason for cropping a dog's ears, except for them to be a fighting dog. And that is the most horrible reason of all.

Where I made an analogy between docking a puppy's tail and piercing a baby's ears, I believe I could also make an analogy between cropping a dog's ears and having half of your baby's ears cut off so she could look like Spock on Star-Trek.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by Foam
Shelteez-- Border Collie Rescue in Arizona has docked a few tails due to injury. I've seen plenty of Border Collies with docked tails.


Oh I've seen dogs that had their tails docked due to injuries. I'd just never heard of a border collie as being a breed where it was done as a puppy to prevent injury...

[DogLover9501]

well Jasper's tail is docked obviously, I dont have anything against it personally, he never gets his tail caught in the door ;), I think its all part of some breeds "look" I dont have a problem with it!

Also something about ear cropping, well its illeagal here, BUT Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped, but I do not like ear cropping it is MUCH more painfull, takes 6 months or so to heal and it 100% for looks.

But no problem with docking...

[DogLover9501]

If you ever see a dog whose docked tail is pretty much gone, then the vet doing the crop did not know what he was doing.

I think that depends on the breed, example rottweilers, they barely have any tail left after docking as some breeds have 3-4 inches left, it depends on the breed of dog.

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by DogLover9501
Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped




Then they obviously don't know much.
It's been proven that cropping has NO affect whatsoever on dogs getting ear infections or not.

[Rio and Me]

Well ear croping is not one at all over here so i dont have to see it. but if it is for breed standerd showing, to me, breed standerd is as they are not how they have been modifid (?sp).
all dogs and cuter naterally.

As for tail docking, i have never seen a BC with docked tail, to me they dont need to be docked.
if they are a well known happy breed then maybe it should be done but for working purposes no they need their tail for balance etc.

Sheep do need to be docked, as cleaning a flock of over 100 sheep and lambs is obserd, fly strike can kill a lamb.
As for cows well i would laugh it became comon, how stupid is that, they (mostly) are brung in for milking twice a day so it wouldnt be any trouble to wipe away the muck,

But people will do as they wish no matter what we think.
Ky and Rio

[K9soul]

Originally posted by GSDgurl
I see no reason in trying to change something that is done in so many breeds for so many years....I just can't see it happening.


Done in the USA, not everywhere. Cropping and docking (but especially cropping) is illegal in other countries outside the US. Tail-docking and ear-clipping are already illegal in most European countries, including Britain. I've been doing some research and reading and here are the list of countries I have found as pertains to cropping and/or docking:

United Kingdom: Cropping is illegal.

Australia: Cropping is illegal.

Canada: In Newfoundland and Labrador cropping is illegal.

New Zealand: Cropping is illegal

Netherlands: Ear cropping became illegal in the sixties.
September 2001 docking was also illegal.

Belgium: cropping was illegal by end 2001. In January 2006 docking will be illegal.

Italy: Cropping is reported to be illegal. Docking is reported to be illegal since February 2001.

Germany: Docking and cropping have been forbidden for a few years.

Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and Denmark): docking has been also banned for years.

Switzerland: docking has been illegal for a couple of years

A clip from AR-News article:


A bill to ban ear-clipping is in the works. But even while such practices are still legal, Ms. Barnato is encouraged by the number of vets who are starting to take a stand on their own. In one recent survey of California vets, only 10 percent said they will clip ears, and 56 percent support legislation to ban it.

I'm reading from many sites that quite a few vets are opposing surgery for purely cosmetic reasons totally.

From Vet 4 Pets page:


Although breeders can perform this procedure, it is best left to a licensed veterinarian, who has appropriate anesthetics. Puppies who undergo this procedure expect at least a few weeks of painful, sensitive ears. Unfortunately, the splinting of the ears is necessary especially during the early stages of healing, which adds to their discomfort. Unless you're planning to show your dog in conformation classes, ear cropping is un-necessary, and therefore becomes personal preference.

I'm additionally apalled that a breeder can legally do this procedure on their own without vet care.

From an MSN news article:


Healing from ear surgery is slow and painful for a dog and there is a risk of complications such as infection. That according to Dr A Crook of the Atlantic Veterinary College.

There are just tons of articles on this issue, and if you (meaning anyone reading this) are someone who feels that it is only a small group of extremists are making a fuss about it, you are very wrong. This practice is very much in question, and a very hot issue with bills being introduced and discussed.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by Rio and Me
As for tail docking, i have never seen a BC with docked tail, to me they dont need to be docked.
if they are a well known happy breed then maybe it should be done but for working purposes no they need their tail for balance etc.


Australian shepherds don't have tails, and they can be quite good herders. Rottweilers can be good at herding as well. :)

[Fox-Gal]

There are reasons for tail docking and I don't feel it should be baned.
I'm going through it right now, we are trying to decide if we need our Dane's tail docked. He has hurt it so many time, by beating it against wall, trees, tables, fences and he has even hurt people with it, me being one of them. He has so much force behind his tail and it's always going at full speed. There have been so many times I've had to doctor his wounds that the vet has suggested to us that maybe we should think out docking it, just a little

All 3 of my Boxers have their tails docked, not that I did it, But I couldn't image them having their natural tail. Just by watching how fast their little stubs move, I can only image what damage they would do to it if it wasn't done. Some breeds needs their tails docked, for their sake.
I'd hate to have some law maker telling me sorry you dog will have to suffer with his wounds. I don't think so.

The ear croping, I have a different view. I did Tuffy's ears, and I will never do that to a dog again. I was told it was not a big deal to do his ears and I was foolish enough to belive them. For anyone that says it not that painfull for the puppy, I'd have to say come look at the pictures I have of Tuffy. We both went through hell with his ears. It is painfull and I learned a very hard lesson at the Tuffy's expence. I will never crop a dogs ears as long as I live.

My other 2 Boxer and my MinPin came to me with thier ears already done, it was not my doing, for anyone who might question that they have theirs done too. I do not crop ears and never will. Even though they do look cute with their ears. ;)


I think in time ear croping will be baned in the US, even now it's harder to find a vet that will do it. I know that for the 3 countys around me there is only one vet that does it. But I hope they don't ban the tail croping complety, medical reasons, well being of the dog it should be done.

[GSDgurl]

K9soul- Thats neat your reading many sites.....pertaining to this article. Personally I didn't know so many countries had banned these procedures....Thanx for the incite. As for the U.S....I don't see it being banned...because...well thats the U.S. And yes....I well still believe it is a group of people trying to ban this.....I don't care what anyone says. There is also a "group" of people that are against banning it. (not trying to be rude....so plz don't take it that way)

Fox-Gal- The cropping can go wrong for some dogs....but that doesnt mean all. My Dobermans ears healed up great after his surgery n' he diffenetly didn't go though "hell" because I made sure he didn't have too.

Kfamr- But yet a dog with standing ears has less of a chance of getting an ear infection then a dog with floppy ears.

As for not many vets doing this practice.....we have 5 vets that practice ear cropping in just my area.

[Twisterdog]

I think that depends on the breed, example rottweilers, they barely have any tail left after docking as some breeds have 3-4 inches left, it depends on the breed of dog.

That's true, different breeds have different standard lengths for the tail to be docked at. But a lot of people who don't know anything about docking think, and say, "Poor dogs, it's so mean to cut off their tails. How can they tell you they are happy if they can't wag their tails." Which, of course, is false. I just wanted to make sure people knew, docking is shortening, not completely removing, the tail.





Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped

Then they obviously don't know much.
It's been proven that cropping has NO affect whatsoever on dogs getting ear infections or not.

But yet a dog with standing ears has less of a chance of getting an ear infection then a dog with floppy ears.


A dog with heavy drop (floppy) does indeed have a far greater risk of ear infections than a dog with prick (standing) ears. Bassets, cockers, springers, etc. are all much more prone to ear infections than a dog with prick ears. The reason being is that the bacteria and/or yeast that cause ear infections grow in an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment. If the ear flaps are heavy and hang close to the dog's face, then oxygen cannot get down the ear canal, and bacteria and/or yeast grow like crazy in there.

So, there is indeed much truth to saying that a dog with prick ears gets less ear infections than one with heavy or hairy floppy ears.

However ... most of the breeds that traditionally have cropped ears (boxers, pit bulls, great Danes, dobermans) etc. do not have excessively heavy drop ears. And they do not have the hairy ears of a cocker or a springer either - hair being another thing that contributes to lack of oxygen in the ear canal.

So to say cropping prevent ear infections is probably not valid, beause the breeds that are cropped are not normally prone to anaerobic ear infections anyway.

Now, if you were to crop a cocker's ears (perish the thought!) it definately WOULD get less ear infections. Many vets recommend tying a cocker's or a basset's ears together on top of its head with a hair tie for several hours per day, to allow the oxygen into the ear canal.

[K9soul]

Simple good ear hygiene can do a lot to prevent ear infections as well. Ear mites can contribute to ear infections, especially in the outer ear canal, due to their droppings. Willie got an external ear infection once that I had to medicate with an antibiotic ointment, though his ears weren't floppy at all. I really don't think it's necessarily accurate for that vet to say Jasper would not get infections if his ears were cropped. Boxer ears do not hang down too heavily and they do not have "hairy" ears.

People with dogs who have very heavy ears are often advised on keeping a closer eye on ears and keep them clean. If they swim or get the ears wet I think it's especially encouraged to clip the ears up for a bit until dry.

However, I would not crop the ears of a bassett or bloodhound or cocker just to reduce ear care and possibility of infection, thus why it is totally an invalid excuse IMHO for the cropping of Dobes/danes/pits etc etc.

Honestly, and no offense intended here, I think people just get used to a look and so they don't like to see something different, even to the point they turn a somewhat blind eye to the fact that there IS pain involved for the dog. Would you want to see a yellow lab with cropped/pricked ears similar to that of a doberman or a boxer? They have a very similar type of ear to the natural ears of those breeds. We are used to a lab's ears the way they are, so I'm willing to bet most people would be appalled/shocked to see cropped ears on a lab.

If the ears of these breeds had never been cropped in times past, we would all be perfectly used to seeing these dogs with their natural ears, the same way we are with a lab, retriever, weimeraner, and on and on with other dogs who have natural ears that are very similar in size and set.

[Tonya]

My grandfather crops all of his cattledog's tails. He says it prevents injury. That working dogs often get them stomped by cows, shut in gates, etc...

As far as cropping for cosmetic purposes goes, I'm undecided. I love the look of cropped ears and tails. Yet, I am not sure that I could bring my family dog in for cosmetic surgury. I'd probably rather them look natural then put them through unneccessary pain.

BTW. I was asking about cropping one time, and my vet is really cool, so he let me come back. They had this pitbull puppy put under on a table. There was blood everywhere as he trimmed his ears with scissors. He just keep looking and trimming a little off each time until he got the look that he wanted. It was very gory and disturbing.

[GSDgurl]

K9soul- I also don't think that it is necessary to crop a bloodhouds or bassets ears.....just b/c they are heavy. I was just "stating" that a dog with upright ears is less likely to have ear infections than dogs with long heavy ears. I was not saying to just crop them all to prevent ear infection.
And yes I do agree with what you have said, about "if no one would have ever started this then everyone would be use to the way the dog "really" looks in its natural state." But thats not what happened in the past and we can't change that. If someone likes cropped ears...I feel they shound't be criticized for liking it.
I just feel like just because I like the look of cropped ears and I did my dogs ears....that you take me as a cruel, unhearted person towards mine n' others animals. Which is totally wrong....as I love all my animals to death n' would do anything for them. Yes cropping is a painful procedure, but its NOT cruel.
Im sorry if thats not the way any you guys took this....but that how I feel you did.

Casey

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by GSDgurl
for them. Yes cropping is a painful procedure, but its NOT cruel.


Uhh...then what's cruel in your dictionary? :confused:
Oh well. People have their own opinions.

[carole]

Thank you for all your interesting comments, it has helped me now to form an opinion, I also had not heard of ear-cropping before and am glad to see its illegal in NZ.

I agree with what some others have voiced, if its just for cosmetic reasons, and causes the animal pain and suffering, then I am AGAINST it!!

As for our farm dogs, they never had their tails docked and no injury's ever happened either.

Most of the cattle here have their tails docked and sheep as well, and as you know we have a lot of sheep in NZ.

I think the bill will go ahead, despite a lot of objections from dog owner's, but we shall see.

I would never ever object my pet to un-necessary pain, just to show them, or because I thought it looked good, and yes if it goes ahead I guess dog shows will just be showing dogs with tails from now on.

You know I always thought cocker spaniels and dobermans were born that way, I never knew their tails were docked, naive I know, but honestly thats the truth.
:o

[cocker_luva]

i love my little Jesse's docked tail. whenever she wags her tail; which is all the time, her cute, little butt wiggles all over. :D :D :D

[K9soul]

GSDgurl, I don't feel you are a personally cruel, unloving pet mom. I hate the procedure and I don't like that it is done for looks, but I don't feel someone is a cruel person who has it done. It's hard to explain. My feelings are totally toward the actual procedure, I wouldn't feel hatred towards you or someone else who has had it done. I don't like that the AKC still promotes it, it seems like they are one of the only big kennel clubs left who still do so.

I guess I feel it's very important that people research and get the facts about it, the fact that it is indeed painful for the dog. I am betting a lot of people who have it done are told it's minor and maybe even that it isn't very painful, but from my research, the ears are one of the most sensitive places on a dog's body. The ears are packed with nerve endings and the pup's ears are quite tender.

As far as cruelty, well, I don't know if I would necessarily label it as animal cruelty in the sense of what I think of as cruelty. If it is done correctly, the pup goes in and is under anesthetic. He/she wakes up and probably has sore ears but does not understand why or understand that they are hurting in order to have a more pleasing look to their person. They aren't being beaten, traumatized with fear and real cruelty, if you see what I mean. They may be loved and adored and spoiled just like my pups, and live the rest of their lives in a wonderful loving home. That is why I don't classify it as cruelty, but to me it IS a mutilation and unnecessary.

I'm trying to be careful how I word things here, because I have no desire to attack anyone personally or pass any personal judgements by any means at all. It is the procedure I do not like and am against, not the people who have had it done.

I'd just encourage anyone to learn all about it that they can, and seriously consider it. I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind here, but if I can help inform a few facts that maybe someone did not know, then I am very glad to have spent the time to communicate those. :)

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Uhh...then what's cruel in your dictionary? :confused:
Oh well. People have their own opinions.


Oh, it's painful and unnecessary, but it's not cruel, right? :rolleyes: :p :p

[Kfamr]

These are from previous threads about cropping ears...


Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver

"There is NO proven medical benefit to cropping, It has never been scientifically proven that it will cut down on the amount of ear infections by increasing ventilation of the ear canal. Keeping the ears clean from dirt and debris is the job of every dog owner, it's basic maintenance, regardless if the dog is cropped or uncropped."
----quoted from HERE (http://www.outlawdanes.com/ears.html)



Originally posted by Kfamr
Here's a great site I found which I agree to what it has to say about cropping ears.
http://www.thepetcenter.com/gen/earc.html


Not only is it painful but it's normally just for looks.




Originally posted by Shelteez2
Ear infections is a phoney reason to get it done. Many breeds with floopy ears are prone to ear infections (spaniels and some retrievers) and others are not. I work at a groomers and dogs with cropped ears can be just as dirty, gunky and infected as those whose ears aren't cropped.
Ear infections actually have a lot to do with diet IMO. I never clean my shelties ears, ever. They don't need it.
If you are going to get them cropped, be truthful and say it would be for aesthetic reasons. You want them cropped for the look.


I hope you two don't mind that I quoted you. :)

[GSDgurl]

K9soul- I understand where your coming from.

As for Golden n' Kfamr- What you n' I cosider cruel may be different. I'll get you an incite. What "I" consider cruel is cutting the dogs ears n' not even put under, beating your dog, starving them, etc. The dog is put under, so they don't fell any pain till they get up. They come home n' the only thing that bothered my dog was his "POST." You can also get pain pills to prevent them from having pain n' believe me....I did. So don't try n' argue with me....Thank you. See these are the people that don't like a person like me...b/c they believe I put my dog in a cruel position.
And Golden- Thats good you know everyone has their own opinion.....so why did you even ask??:confused:
And Kfamr- I don't need someone to repeat thangs...:rolleyes:

[Kfamr]

I'm sorry, didn't know I was repeatin' thangs. :rolleyes:


I was just giving reliable sources from where I base my opinion. ('n maybe where others are coming from.)

[GSDgurl]

I wasn't talking about the sources....I didn't know they were up at the time I was typing this:) I was talking about this.....

Oh, it's painful and unnecessary, but it's not cruel, right?

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by GSDgurl
I wasn't talking about the sources....I didn't know they were up at the time I was typing this:) I was talking about this.....

Ummm.. Okay.


I wasn't directing that comment towards you, I was directing it towards Julie. Hence the reason I quoted her.

Like I said, i'm sorry that I seem to repeating thangs.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by GSDgurl
And Golden- Thats good you know everyone has their own opinion.....so why did you even ask??:confused:


It was just a statement. I was confused by that.

[DogLover9501]

Yikes, seems this turned into a big debate!

I gave my opinions, but I would like to say that I dont think docking OR cropping is defined as "cruel" cruel would be a bit different, because they heal from both of these things, they forget them, and theyre still happy, healthy dogs, and I dont think its cruel for people to want them to look standard

And like fox-gal said, about her boxers, Jasper also would clear tables, whip people, get his tail caught in doors...etc if he didnt have it docked, and he was only 4 days old, it hurt for a second, there was no bone or anything, he forgot it in a bit and I dont think thats cruel at all, and its better then getting a home/self docking with a door...

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by DogLover9501
and its better then getting a home/self docking with a door...


Eh.. Generally I make sure my dogs (tails and all) are completely through the door before I close it! :p :p

[Amber]

Originally posted by Kfamr
Eh.. Generally I make sure my dogs (tails and all) are completely through the door before I close it! :p :p

Yeah me too..no tail choppin at my place! :p

[DogLover9501]

Well our german shepard cut his tail off in a door by himself, Im not saying Im going to shut the door on their tails, but it happens, like when children are around or if the wind blows the door shut..etc

[Twisterdog]

When I posted in this thread this afternoon, I said to myself, "I'll bet my right arm, when I get back online this evening we will have yet another repetitive, back and forth, argument that is going nowhere and accomplishing nothing in this thread, complete with many, many posts followed by this assinine smilie: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: "

And I was right! I am psyshic! Twisterdog The Great ... seer of all Battles of the Junior High Mentality. Would anyone like their fortune read? ;)

When Karen and Paul get back, I'm going to suggest that they eliminate this STUPID thing from the site: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I am SO sick and tired of some people following almost every one of their posts with it. It is rude and condescending. If you were having a conversation with someone in person, would you roll your eyes like that at them when they said something you didn't agree with?

And, to keep the thread on topic .... dogs injure their tails ALL the time. In doors, by wagging them up against things, by playing rough with another dog, by hunting, by herding, etc. I see thousands and thousands of dogs every year, and YES, dogs DO injure their tails quite often.

[dukedogsmom]

Yep, I think it was on page 2 that I asked if this needed to go to the doghouse. I haven't said anything more about it. Just been observing....

[Kfamr]

I don't understand what that was all about --

But generally yes, topics like this get heated, including declawing, breeding, and topics like that.

[GSDgurl]

DogLover- I agree with you 100% that docking n' cropping are not cruel. They heal n' their just happy, healthy pups, like everyone elses dogs.

Golden- Everything that causes pain is not cruel.....if you think pain is cruel......don't you think spaying and neutering your dog is pain??

Twisterdog- I agree about the ":rolleyes: :rolleyes:" Personally when you see a person reply with them, its like you already know their being rude. I also believe anything to do with docking, cropping, dewclaw removing, n' lets go ahead n' say fixing your dog to.....since it does cause pain to your animal. Should be sent to the "Doghouse"

[DogLover9501]

It is rude and condescending. If you were having a conversation with someone in person, would you roll your eyes like that at them when they said something you didn't agree with?

Oh, exactly, it is much different here, but I have not shown any disrespect because just because I am not speaking to you all in person, doesnt mean Im going to be rude, I respect everyones opinions, they have a right to think and believe whatever they want, as other people aren't as open minded.

Also GSDgurl, thanks for agreeing ;) And I know alot of people will say "NO spaying and neutering isn't cruel because its for reasons" but docking are for reasons, and even if cropping is usually/always for cosmetic reasons, its the same as plastic surgery, peircings, tattoos...etc, and all that stuff is for looks and isnt considered cruel to us, and we all heal from all of those things, and are happy, so theres not a HUGE difference except with those things its our choice, and the dogs dont get a choice, but how do you know the dogs wouldnt rather have standing ears? ;) :D

[EssTer]

Well, about ear croping and tail docking...

I think for show dogs tail docking is OK...But I think those dobies and great danes , for example, look better without croped ears...

I don´t think docking and croping tails and ears isn´t cruel..

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by GSDgurl
Golden- Everything that causes pain is not cruel.....if you think pain is cruel......don't you think spaying and neutering your dog is pain??


No, that's not what I'm saying
Like I said before tail docking and ear cropping is done for looks. If it was done for the purpose of health issues (which have not been proven) then I can understand. Spaying and Neutering is done to decrease the population, so less dogs and cats end up in shelters. It's also been proven to expand the life of the animal, by decreasing the risk of cancers. So, it is done for health reasons, and for the care of the animal. (dog)

[Twisterdog]

You know I always thought cocker spaniels and dobermans were born that way, I never knew their tails were docked, naive I know, but honestly thats the truth.

LOL ... don't feel bad. I had a customer once who thought Scottish terriers (Scotties) were just born looking how they do for dog shows, she had no idea you had to get them groomed.

She brought her dog in so I could look at it, because she thought the breeder sold her a furry black mutt, and called it a Scotty, and she wanted me to back her up when she tried to get her money back.

I told her that he looked like a purebred to me, but of course it was hard to tell for sure until he was groomed. She gave me the funniest look and said, "You groom them?" She felt SO stupid. LOL



I also believe anything to do with docking, cropping, dewclaw removing, n' lets go ahead n' say fixing your dog to.....since it does cause pain to your animal. Should be sent to the "Doghouse"

Well, I have to disagree with that. Most of us ... say 99% of us ... can have a debate about these potentially controversial subjects, and not have it turn into an argument. There's always one or two people, however, that have to turn threads like this one - no, actually any thread - into a petty argument. That doesn't mean, IMO, that every thread that one or two people start an immature argument in needs to go to the Doghouse. I think we all just need to start being more assertive and saying, "Hey. Stop it. We had a good, open, friendly debate going here until you came in and tried to turn it into a petty fight." Just MHO.

There's nothing wrong with debate. Debate is how you learn. Debate is also open-minded, and fun. Debate means making a statement only when you have relevant facts to contribute. Argument, on the other hand, is replying to every single post you don't agree with, whether you have any new useful information to contribute or not. Argument is saying, repeatedly, "I don't agree. You are wrong. If you don't have the same opinion as me, then you must be mean/cruel/stupid, whatever". (Obviously not in so many words, but always implied well enough to hurt feelings or infuriate.) Argument is also being snotty, mean or sarcastic - while debate is being calm and factual.

You can correct someone's facts, if they are wrong, or contribute new facts, and that is debate. But you can never, ever correct someone's opinion, because opinion is not "right" or "wrong", and can't be corrected. Trying to change or correct someone's opinion is one sure mark of a petty argument just for the sake of argument.

[carole]

I did not start this thread so that some people could start an argument with each other, nor do I see any reason for it to be shifted to the Dog House..

My main purpose was to tell you all who own dogs, what is happening in my country and to get opinions from you all, I thought maybe some of you might just be interested ,and I really do not know much about it, so please donot feel the need to personally attack anyone, we all differ on this subject, and I wanted this to be a healthy debate, that's all.

If this turns nasty I will feel it best to delete it, but I don't wish to do that, as it's interesting to hear everyone's point's of views, and as for the roll you eyes emoticon, I have NEVER EVER used it in the almost one year I have been here, and I never will, I donot find it necessary to use it to get my point across.