Question on Disecting Cats [Archive]

2kitties

01-06-2004, 06:09 PM

I don't know your age, but I have never heard of this at the high school level, but I know it is popular at the collegiate level.

I think you should try to do it. Unfortunatly, there are euthanized animals in this world. The fact that so many are killed is a completly different issue. In your issue, there are animal bodies which can either be destroyed, or students like you can respectfully learn from them and, potentially save future animals or people from disease, etc.

I say be respectful of the animals contribution and try to learn as much as you can so the opportunity does not go to waste.

I know as much as I love my boys, this woud be extremely difficult for me, so I wish you luck.

Cincy'sMom

01-06-2004, 06:10 PM

We also did cats in High School, along with a few other animals ( fish, grasshopper, rabbit, sheep's eye, cow's knee, frog, worm and a few others) I don't know where they came from, and I'm not sure I want too. I found it educational and did well in the class.

Our cat's name was Monkley.

lizbud

01-06-2004, 06:21 PM

Would everyone who said they dissected a cat/dog while in
High School, please tell me 3 things you learned from doing it?

Just three lessons you learned about cats or dogs physiology.

Kfamr

01-06-2004, 06:26 PM

They disect cats at my school, ones that have also been put to sleep due to sickness/old age and such.

I think it's a good idea for those who want to become Vets. If they can't handle disecting a cat, then I doubt they'd be able to handle the ups and downs of being a Vet.

They also learn alot aobut the cat's (or whichever animal's) insides, obviously.

Soledad

01-06-2004, 06:37 PM

I think I've discussed this before on this site. I dissected a cat my senior year in Anatomy class. It was an extremely educational experience that I'm glad I had. Like your class, our cats were euthanized from the shelter and then brought to us.

If they had come to us in any other way, I would have objected.

Kater

01-06-2004, 06:38 PM

I think the HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) has a very well thought out position on this issue and one that is worth considering....

The HSUS condones transfer of euthanized animals from shelters to research or educational institutions under only very limited circumstances. First, no transactions of live animals should occur, and any animal involved must have been humanely euthanized due to either mortal illness or injury, or because no suitable home could be found for the animal within a reasonable time.

Second, animal cadavers may be transferred only when the animal's former owner has been informed of this policy and has given consent. Full public awareness of any animal transfer policy is vital to maintaining public trust in animal shelters. Regardless of owner consent, however, shelters not wishing to supply animal carcasses to institutions should not be compelled to do so.

Third, such transfers should not involve elementary, middle or high schools. The HSUS opposes the practice of animal dissection in pre-college classrooms for numerous reasons. At the college level, we acknowledge the need for animal cadavers in veterinary training, for instance, but emphasize the importance that any cadavers come only from humanely euthanized animals and that no animal be raised or killed specifically for use in dissection.

Fourth, transfer of animals from animal shelters must never involve any exchange of money. The existence of so-called "surplus" cats is a result of the tragedy of pet overpopulation. Millions of cats are killed yearly in US shelters because there are not enough homes for them all. When there is money to be made in dealing in their carcasses, there may be less incentive for addressing overpopulation. There is also the perception that the shelter would rather gain from this tragedy than spend their monetary resources necessary to solve it.

Finally, when the above criteria are met, it should be explained to students that the animals are from an ethically sound source.
http://www.hsus.org/ace/11373?pg=2

Personally, I feel that because you really have no way to insure that these cats were obtained from an ethically sound source you have to assume that they were not obtained ethically. According to your post it looks like you only felt dissecting a cat might be okay if it wasn’t killed "just for" your dissection. However, if a little money transfer were involved from the humane society to the laboratory then it is easy to see how to some uncaring individual a cat would be "worth more" dead than alive.

My vote would be to object to this dissection.

If you come to this same conclusion then I suggest you look to this helpful guide put out by the National Anti-Vivisection Society for advice on how to proceed: http://www.navs.org/education/pdf/HSbooklet.pdf

They even have a toll free numbers you can call!

If you need specific suggestions for alternative course work, see the Alternatives Loan Program listing or call NAVS at 1-800-888-NAVS (6287).

If after reading this booklet you have more questions about how to proceed, feel free to call us at our toll-free number, 1-800-922-FROG (3764).

RICHARD

01-06-2004, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
Would everyone who said they dissected a cat/dog while in
High School, please tell me 3 things you learned from doing it?

Just three lessons you learned about cats or dogs physiology.

The way muscles are bundled/muscle fibers and how they "slide", ligaments and atachment points,
the difference between smooth and striated muscles, joints, adductor and abductor muscles....

The class helps if you are headed into the field of medicine.....

Corinna

01-06-2004, 07:32 PM

I agree its a use for animals who can help us learn to help others. I personaly had truble in class doing the cutting, wish I had done more it would have prepared me for my time as a vet tech.
I stayed to more insects and such. Slugs were very intresting there were no info so I had to write it up and the local library but it in there science section.

cutie_chica

01-06-2004, 08:17 PM

I dont know about your school but when I was in school, I just went to the Principal and said I didnt want to do it, I thought it was mean. And I had to write a paper instead... Good luck!

wolfsoul

01-06-2004, 08:40 PM

I think that, unless you are becoming a vet/vet tech, that dissecting isn't nessecary. Why can't a normal high school student just look at the pictures in a text book?

This year we have to dissect rats. :( How can I disect my babies?

We also have to do a starfish, grasshopper, and a couple other things I don't remember.

We've already dissected a cow eyeballs and fish.

Twisterdog

01-06-2004, 10:28 PM

When I was in high school Biology I, we had to dissect frogs that arrived in big vats of formaldehyde. It was not pleasant, but it was kind of like cutting up a rubber toy. Nothing about those frogs was remotely lifelike. I did it, because this was in the 80's, and I had no clue that you could opt out of things like that. Everyone bucked up and did it. It wasn't that bad, really.

Now, when I took advanced Biology II in high school, we had to dissect live frogs. We pithed them, and cut them up. It was HORRIBLE. I am still tormented by that, twenty years later. If I thought by any remote chance that I could have gotten out of it, I would have tried. Some people cried, some people threw up. Didn't matter, everyone had to do it. :(

I learned NOTHING from the experience, because it upset me and grossed me out completely. I was too tortured to learn. It did me absolutely no good to kill that frog. However, I was an accounting major in college, not pre-vet. There IS value to dissection, for pre-vet or pre-med students. Just not your average high school kid.

As for dissecting a cat or dog that has already been euthanized .... frankly, I have far less of a problem with that than killing a frog or a rat or even an earthworm simply for the purpose of having high school kids dissect it. The cat or dog was killed due to over-population, over-breeding and throw-away attitude. If it's body is dissected afterwards, there is no more harm done. Dead is dead.

Let's not miss the forest for the trees here - the cat is dead because someone didn't spay or neuter their pet, let them run loose, wanted their kids to see the "miracle of birth", wanted a kitten from the litter, got tired of their old cat and took it to animal control, etc. etc. etc. The cat is not dead because of a high school biology class.

tikeyas_mom

01-06-2004, 11:31 PM

i dont really know what to say. we dont do that at my school, we disect pig fetus's, not cats.

trayi52

01-06-2004, 11:37 PM

The eigth graders here were disecting baby pigs.

Twisterdog what you said reminded me of that commercial I seen on TV, where they give everybody their frogs to disect and this one guy EATS his and asks for another!!!! Ewwwwee!!! Yuck!

GoldenRetrLuver

01-06-2004, 11:39 PM

We have to do this too. Last year, we disected a Cow Eyeball, and a squid. This year, my Biology teacher said we're going to disect a pig fetus, and a cat. I agree with Twisterdog, if it's dead there's no harm done. But, if it was alive I consider that CRUEL. Since I'm aiming to become a vet, I think this could be good "practice". I don't get squimish around blood or anything, so I should be fine.

RICHARD

01-07-2004, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by Twisterdog
I learned NOTHING from the experience, because it upset me and grossed me out completely. I was too tortured to learn. It did me absolutely no good to kill that frog. However, I was an accounting major in college, not pre-vet. There IS value to dissection, for pre-vet or pre-med students. Just not your average high school kid.

One of the wonders of life is how so many small cells can be put together and make a creature that walked the planet.

This sounds totally stupid but I think that studying the body of an animal and making us understand how and why the animal 'ticks'
honors the creature.

it makes more sense to give a person, with a true desire to make a difference in the future, the chance to understand how that animal is put together...

One day you will hand your pet over to a vet and they, by knowing how and why your animal is put together, will be able to
care for it in a humane and caring way.

American Indians always honored the animals they killed for food by stopping and thanking the gods for bringing them onto the planet.

Unfortunately these animal are killed because we choose not to protect them from a fate that puts them on a tray in an anatomy class........

By dishonoring them and using them as fertilizer or putting then in an incinerator we waste an opportunity to learn from their short and painful lives.

It's far more offensive to me NOT to learn from our mistakes than to rail about the aftermath and our inability to make things right in the first place.

Take a look around at the things that you take for granted and
pay attention to how those things came about.

Trust me-

you may as well stop living.

But what do I know?

ramanth

01-07-2004, 08:22 AM

Our biology class in HS dissected cats. You didn't have to if you didn't want too, you could do a paper instead, but most of the class did it.

My group consited of me and two guy friends and we were all cat owners. After being reassured that the cats were euthanized from the shelter, we did it and I felt it helped me learn how my cats tick.

ILoveMyAbbyGirl

01-07-2004, 07:57 PM

Everyones making it sound better than I'm thinking it is, but I don't think I could. I'd watch maybe, but I don't know if I could do it myself. *is a sap* I'd be too sad...

Soledad

01-07-2004, 08:15 PM

Wow, Richard. You said exactly what I felt about this issue.:eek: :)

cali

01-07-2004, 08:44 PM

thank goodness nothing is forced here, if you dont want to disect an animal for any reason you dont have to, you have to be there and watch, but you can watch from the back, without doing any disecting yourself and you will not be penilized for it. thank heavens we do not disect much at my school, I am in bio 20, and we are doing no disecting this year. last year however I had to disect a pigs heart and lungs. but by then I was so used to handling and cutting organs with bare hands(dog food) that doing it with gloves on was not bad at all. I wont disect anything more then organs though, I cannot disect an animal like a cat, no way. I dont have a problem with organ meats(they are ordered from a meat packing plant) just because whenever my mom is sick or out of town I have to feed my dogs, and they eat organ meat, and we dont use gloves for that. ;)

2kitties

01-07-2004, 08:50 PM

You know Richard, you come in here everyday and you drop your sarcastic little funnies that are usually laced with either truth, irony or sarcasm. You always make us laugh.

...Then you come in here with posts like this that are bold, truthful, well spoken, educated, indisputable and ...well, perfect.

Well said, my friend.

lizbud

01-07-2004, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD

This sounds totally stupid but I think that studying the body of an animal and making us understand how and why the animal 'ticks'
honors the creature.

American Indians always honored the animals they killed for food by stopping and thanking the gods for bringing them onto the planet.

I don't think it's stupid Richard, but grade school & high school
students can better learn to "honor the creatures" by learning
about the nature of living animals instead of cutting up the dead
bodies. Save the investigative studies for serious Vet students
of college age who could become animal healers.

Also (my paternal grandfather was Shawnee), American Indians
prayed to the Spirit of the animal killed for food. They believed all
life was One & part of the Great Spirit/God. All life (plant & Animal) is part of God & deserves great reverence.

Soledad

01-07-2004, 08:59 PM

But! Some highschoolers & junior highschoolers would never know how interesting biology is if they hadn't dissected. It can really spark a desire and interest in biology/anatomy that might not have been there before!

Cincy'sMom

01-07-2004, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by Soledad
Wow, Richard. You said exactly what I felt about this issue.:eek: :)

Now we know why it is so cold!!! Soledad and Richard are argeeing!!!!

Soledad

01-07-2004, 09:04 PM

Hardy har har.:p

Cincy'sMom

01-07-2004, 09:06 PM

:D :D

andrea_NMAggie

01-07-2004, 10:11 PM

I took an anatomy/physiology class as a senior in high school, and we learned on a cat. It was such an experience. Not everyone in our class was thinking of going into medicine as a career, I think the reason we enrolled in this class was because we were eager to learn about how a body works. I've always been an animal lover, but knowing that these cats weren't "killed" just for us to learn on made it easier to distance myself emotionally. I can't remember what we named our cat...but we worked on it for an entire semester. I aced the class, learned a lot...retained the information that I learned from that class until 2 years later when I took the anatomy class in College.

RubyMutt

01-07-2004, 10:43 PM

I took biology my sophomore year of high school (we dissected frogs), but one day my teacher wanted to bring our class over to the senior anatomy class to observe them dissecting cats. All I can remember was that very few of the students seemed to be taking it seriously. A few of them were DANCING with the dead cats. It was so disgusting, immature, and disrespectful. The teacher didn't seem to have much control of that class :rolleyes: I never took anatomy, partially for that reason, but I already had enough science credits anyway. I have a couple friends who are going to college for biology majors. They just dissected pigs a couple semesters ago.

I don't think I gained much from my frog dissection (my lab partner did most of the 'hands on' work... I really did not like poking around inside a dead animal). I don't think dissection is should be necessary for just basic high school science classes, I can understand the use of them for anatomy students. It's nice if the cats really do come from a shelter instead of just killing them specifically for science. I remember my biology teacher having a HUGE catalog of different 'specimens' you could order. I was amazed at some of the stuff you could buy :(

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by trayi52
The eigth graders here were disecting baby pigs.

Ooh, that's another thing we're dissecting! We're dissecting rats, baby pigs, pig fetuses, grasshoppers, starfish, and mussels. All this year! :eek: I'll do all of the except the mammals. I don't know what it is about dissecting a mammal that makes me sad and freaks me out.

We have real disected animals all over the class. Why do we need to stick a knife in it and play with it's insides ourselves to "understand biology?" I'm perfectly happy looking at the pictures in the text book.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by lizbud
I don't think it's stupid Richard, but grade school & high school
students can better learn to "honor the creatures" by learning
about the nature of living animals instead of cutting up the dead
bodies. Save the investigative studies for serious Vet students
of college age who could become animal healers.

Ah, but would your trust your own body to a person who learned surgery from a book?

there is a tactile sense to learning you cannot find on paper or a computer screen.

I was totally against the dissection that I did but it helped me learn and appreciate life and death.

Don't worry.

One day the chance will be taken away from someone who just may take that experience and make something of it.

The Wrights were told they couldn't do it.

John Kennedy was blowing smoke out his ass when he said we would get to the moon by 1970.

Pastuer and the Curies we also stupid crackpots.

Jonas Salk wasn't all together there.....

I have always admired people who swallow a little of their pride and beliefs to get where they wanted to get to. But then again we can always nip that wonder and desire to learn in the bud and discourage the desire to learn, explore and find out how we can make life better for us and our pets.

I wonder what your Shawnee forefathers thought about rooting around in that carcass and wondering just how things worked...

But then again they may have only been interested in tomorrow's
dinner.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by 2kitties

...Then you come in here with posts like this that are bold, truthful, well spoken, educated, indisputable and ...well, perfect.

Well said, my friend.

am I slipping?

By the way..

Liz,

Do not take me seriously.

The knowledge I took from that class has always been the foundation of the knowledge I apply in my job. I took the time to
put aside my ideas and took the chance to see for myself.

Was it pleasant? NO!

Was it worth the suspension of my ideals?

Hell Yes.

The next time you go to the doctor think about all the 'dissections'
that came before the treatment you get.

Chances are there were some very unpleasant things that went on before you were given a pill or injection......

Sometimes it's helpful to ignore that in order to feel better.

Thanks for sticking to your guns!!

catlover4ever

01-08-2004, 09:34 AM

I went through the same thing in High School. I took an human biology class and part of the class was disecting a cat. I have to say that at first I did not want to do it, but looking back now, as the owner of 5 cats, this was the best class I ever took. I have more of an understanding of my animals now than I ever did before.

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by RICHARD
By dishonoring them and using them as fertilizer or putting then in an incinerator we waste an opportunity to learn from their short and painful lives.

Most of the lives aren't short, but painful, yes. Alot of the animals you dissect are animals from laboratories that live long painful lives. They kill them when they are expired, and give them to schools. By the schools buying and taking these animals, they are supporting the tortures and deaths of thousands of animals every year. I'm completely against letting animals live in this life, and completely against supporting it. If it was an animal that was euthanised it was sick and wouldn't make it, I wouldn't have such a problem with it.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Most of the lives aren't short, but painful, yes. Alot of the animals you dissect are animals from laboratories that live long painful lives. They kill them when they are expired, and give them to schools. By the schools buying and taking these animals, they are supporting the tortures and deaths of thousands of animals every year. I'm completely against letting animals live in this life, and completely against supporting it. If it was an animal that was euthanised it was sick and wouldn't make it, I wouldn't have such a problem with it.

Show your work....

Support your arguement.

NOT the lab experiment stuff, that is well documented......

Show me that schools obtain the bodies from those sources and how they support the torture and death of these animals.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Soledad
Wow, Richard. You said exactly what I felt about this issue.:eek: :)

LOL,

You know you like the edgy side of hanging with SATAN......

:cool:

Soledad

01-08-2004, 02:31 PM

Ha!:D

Would you be the "Great Satan" or just the "Okay Satan"?

lizbud

01-08-2004, 02:35 PM

Cat Dissection in America

http://www.sniksnak.com/aavs3.html

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Soledad
Ha!:D

Would you be the "Great Satan" or just the "Okay Satan"?

Just plain satan, is okay.....I'm not into the honorifics.....people expect too much from you when you have an official title.;)

Liz,

Ummm,
can you flesh out that arguement a little more?

Stories of kids getting paid a dollar for a cat
aren't exactly what I was looking for.

Also, these nameless factories/research places leave me wondering who they are.

There was a thread a while back on companies who did use animals as research victims.

As I stated before-to live in the world today, without benefitting from animal research you may as well pack up all your stuff and head off to the mountains and live like a hermit.....try going thru your day WITHOUT using anything that wasn't produced, manufactured, developed or derived from research done on animals.

I have no problem with ANYONE objecting to animal research...As nasty as that dirty little secret is here and around the world we would be alot worse off had we not headed into that direction.

I am probably the biggest WUSS you would ever meet. I hate to see any animal suffer or be mistreated....But I do realize the leaps we have made in medicine from those processes...
It's a trade off that doesn't make me feel good,
but when I look at the benefits I lose my taste for being so uppity about this arguement.

If you try and look at every danger on your way down the street you won't get very far.

lizbud

01-08-2004, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD

...But I do realize the leaps we have made in medicine from those processes...

Richard,

Ah, could you flesh out that argument a little more for me, huh?
Just go ahead a list all these great improvements in the medical
field gained through animal vivisection, o.k.? Take your time, I'll
wait.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
Richard,

Ah, could you flesh out that argument a little more for me, huh?
Just go ahead a list all these great improvements in the medical
field gained through animal vivisection, o.k.? Take your time, I'll
wait.

Eggs to make vaccines,
Pig heart valves, Pig skin for burn victims.
Chimps testing artificial hearts.
Growing human parts on rats.
chimps and aids, ebola........

I took seven minutes, I was down stairs getting some fries and hot water, sorry.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 03:25 PM

My mom said it was never nice to keep a lady waiting.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 03:40 PM

Your newborn is cyanotic and unable to breathe properly.

It's got a bad heart.

You can have a babboon heart implanted until a suitable transplant heart is found...

What are you going to do?

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 03:58 PM

http://www.nature.com/nm/web_specials/xeno/draft.html

I forgot about cow heart valves.:eek:

http://www.aero.ufl.edu/~rtst/classes/BME5001/jardaneh.pdf

Page 9

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 04:07 PM

Temporary Wound Covering

Allograft, Cadaver Skin, or Homograft is human cadaver skin donated for medical use. The clinical use of allograft skin in the modern era was popularized by James Barrett Brown, who described its use in 1942. Cadaver skin is used as a temporary covering for excised (cleaned) wound surfaces before autograft (permanent) placement. Unmeshed cadaver is put over the excised wound and stapled in place. Post-operatively, the cadaver may be covered with a dressing. Wound coverage using cadaveric allograft is removed prior to permanent autografting.

Xenograft or Heterograft is skin taken from a variety of animals, usually a pig. Heterograft skin became popular because of the limited availability and high expense of human skin tissue. In some cases religious, financial, or cultural objections to the use of human cadaver skin may also be factors. Wound coverage using xenograft or heterograft is a temporary covering used until autograft. Porcine is commonly used as temporary skin coverage for Exfoliative Skin Diseases (e.g. SJS, TEN).

--------------------------------------------------

I should have led off with this one to 'flesh out' my arguement.

DJFyrewolf36

01-08-2004, 04:14 PM

I disected a pig in High school...the advanced anatomy class did cats though. I can't really say watching it bothered me (my friends were in the class) and it WAS educational. Being an Information Systems major in college, I obviously don't use the knowledge now lol. To me, those cats came in buckets of foul smelling liquid and were very much dead. Now if I had to KILL the cat first, I'd have a problem. Call me a hypocrite if you must, but I just don't have the disire or want to kill anything for any reason, unless I intend to eat said thing or I'm defending myself. Disection to me isnt killing the animal, it was dead long before my unskilled hands reached it! My husbands high school had a bio teacher that liked to kill monkeys...they would come in live from some wierd lab and the kids would have to gas the monkeys before they disected them...and it wasn't killing gas either, it was just a paralytic...so the monkeys were alive when they were cut up. :mad: Now THAT is animal cruelty in my eyes...at least the cats were *hopefully* humanely euthanized....
Oh and that Science teacher was fired eventually....
:rolleyes:

lizbud

01-08-2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD
Eggs to make vaccines,
Pig heart valves, Pig skin for burn victims.
Chimps testing artificial hearts.
Growing human parts on rats.
chimps and aids, ebola........

I took seven minutes, I was down stairs getting some fries and hot water, sorry.

How can you relate "eggs" to "vivisection ?

Pig heart valves ? Ever hear of one that worked for longer
than a few days ?

Pig skin ? They invented artificial skin some years ago. They
grow it from human skin cells in dishes.

Chimps testing artificial hearts ? What common heart substitute
did that provide?

Growing human parts on rats ? Any particular part ? Never
read anything about this one.

Chimps, Aids, Ebola ? These diseases have existed in nature
for a very long time & yes chimps can contract AIDS. No, it
does not spread from chimps to humans. Anything else?

I think you're mixing animal expermentation with animal
vivisection for it's own sake as a teaching tool in some schools.

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD
Show your work....

Support your arguement.

NOT the lab experiment stuff, that is well documented......

Show me that schools obtain the bodies from those sources and how they support the torture and death of these animals.
My school buys rats from laboratories in the US. So does my friend's school in Ontario. And my teacher said that most schools buy expired lab rats to dissect.

They support the abuse of these animals by buying them, which in turn gives money to the laboratories.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
How can you relate "eggs" to "vivisection ?

I think you're mixing animal expermentation with animal
vivisection for it's own sake as a teaching tool in some schools.

I can't spell vivisection let alone know what the
word means.

you win.

P.s. typical woman....you made me wait long enough..............:confused:

But then again...

Richard,

Ah, could you flesh out that argument a little more for me, huh?
Just go ahead a list all these great improvements in the medical
field gained through animal vivisection, o.k.? Take your time, I'll
wait.

I guess without taking apart animals we wouldn't know about all those things...Now I am confused......

I reed pruty gud and tri to understnd engklish, I thot I red ur kwestyon korrecktly.

Am I really that far off with the EGGS?

Wolf,

I think I missed something.

How are expired rats abused? Can you get more info from your teacher, more than just their word?

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD
Wolf,

I think I missed something.

How are expired rats abused? Can you get more info from your teacher, more than just their word?
Well, I guess it's only a matter of opinion whether or not they'd be called abused...But in my own opinion, animal testing is just cruel. I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having things constantly poked in me, or having wires attached to my brain...I wouldn't think it was so bad if they needed to do this research for the animal's sakes, but in most cases it's always for humans, and all species are different.

I'll ask my teacher who the main supplier is and see if I can find a site...

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 06:25 PM

I'm not satisfied with my sarcastic replies...

Pig heart valves remain WORKING AFTER 10 YEARS.
Had I known you wouldn't read my links I would have shined them on.

Artificial skin?

WHA?????? you mean WE can do that???
a fricking mazing.....link please?

Read about the researchers growing ears on the
backs of mice.....great pics somewhere.....

Do you remember Walter Winchell, the puppetry guy?
Look up JARVIK, google it and see what happens.

Chimps and apes are close enough to humans in structure and composition to be and to help researchers in determining the course of the disease.

http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1995/10-25-95/news/Mouse-Ear.html

Whose the leader of the club that's made for you and me?

M-i-c-k-e-y blow it out your ear!!!!!;)

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Well, I guess it's only a matter of opinion whether or not they'd be called abused...But in my own opinion, animal testing is just cruel. I know I wouldn't particularly enjoy having things constantly poked in me, or having wires attached to my brain...I wouldn't think it was so bad if they needed to do this research for the animal's sakes, but in most cases it's always for humans, and all species are different.

I'll ask my teacher who the main supplier is and see if I can find a site...

You have dissected dead animals with wires in their brains?????????

Using animals for experiments and then selling those same animals so SO UNETHICAL it's not funny.

If you tell me that you have dissected rats with wires in their brains.....I'll call you on that one...One, for not making a stink about it before.

Those animals are dissected by the companies doing the experiments.
Try again.

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD
You have dissected dead animals with wires in their brains?????????

Using animals for experiments and then selling those same animals so SO UNETHICAL it's not funny.

If you tell me that you have dissected rats with wires in their brains.....I'll call you on that one...One, for not making a stink about it before.

Those animals are dissected by the companies doing the experiments.
Try again.
No no no, that's not what I meant. I mean that laboratories do things like that, and by buying animals from them(whether or not these particular animals have evidence of abuse or not), you are giving the laboratories money, and they will have money to further continue such cruel experiments. It's the same reason some people don't buy IAMS -- You would be giving IAMS money, and therefore supporting the experiments they do. The animals in question do not have to have been experimented on for you to be supporting the laboratories' experiments. Any money towards them helps them to keep their animals and keep doing the same things to them.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 06:44 PM

lol

I am sooooooo stupid

It's PAUL

Paul Winchell: Paul Wilchen (amateur medical device inventor (patented an artificial human heart)/acupuncturist/Doctor of Divinity/ventriloquist (w/dummies Jerry Mahoney & Knucklehead Smiff)/cartoon voicist/movie & tv actor/director/writer, b1922)

lizbud

01-08-2004, 06:45 PM

Oh Richard, you scamp.... You always say the cutest things.:D

Sorry I was late but I had an appointment to get my hair
done this afternoon.(Honestly, I was late getting there) Anyhoo
I'm beautiful again so , may I buy you a drink at Thursday's ?

Hey, who's minding the bar anyway ? Liz.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
No no no, that's not what I meant. I mean that laboratories do things like that, and by buying animals from them(whether or not these particular animals have evidence of abuse or not), you are giving the laboratories money, and they will have money to further continue such cruel experiments. It's the same reason some people don't buy IAMS -- You would be giving IAMS money, and therefore supporting the experiments they do. The animals in question do not have to have been experimented on for you to be supporting the laboratories' experiments. Any money towards them helps them to keep their animals and keep doing the same things to them.

If you buy the animals from the labs what do they use????

Or is that the overstock???

Please give me a link and please, no EARTHFIRST, GREEN PEACE or PETA sites.....I really want to see something without the slant attached to it. My equilibrium is not that good.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
Oh Richard, you scamp.... You always say the cutest things.:D

Sorry I was late but I had an appointment to get my hair
done this afternoon.(Honestly, I was late getting there) Anyhoo
I'm beautiful again so , may I buy you a drink at Thursday's ?

Hey, who's minding the bar anyway ? Liz.

lol,

I am glad we can have a good row without the hard feelings.

I am proud of you!

and I apologize for being a smartass???

psst,

I'd wait for you as long as you wanted....

See being silly has it's advantages......

FRIENDS?
:)

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD
If you buy the animals from the labs what do they use????

Or is that the overstock???

Those are the EXPIRED animals, meaning that they don't need these certain animals anymore because they have become sick, are too old, etc.

I don't have a link, like I said, I'm going to ask my teacher who the main supplier to the schools in the Okanagan is, and see if I can find a website.

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Those are the EXPIRED animals, meaning that they don't need these certain animals anymore because they have become sick, are too old, etc.

I don't have a link, like I said, I'm going to ask my teacher who the main supplier to the schools in the Okanagan is, and see if I can find a website.

I can only surmise that those animals were kept alive and as healthy as they could be in order for them to be used as control subjects....

You cannot possibly, unless you are making the animals sick yourself, use ill animals as a control group.....

and any company selling ill animals to the public would and should be shut down...it's not ethical...

ask teach about control groups and scientific methods for doing experiments....

Please.

BTW,

I am not a doctor or anything like that.I don't have any degrees - just a few years of college and
I like to read.

wolfsoul

01-08-2004, 07:08 PM

I suppose you're right that knowingly ill animals shouldn't be sold to the public...I don't believe, that unless the experiments themselves caused the sicknesses, that the animals would be ill. Especially rats that are kpt in very sterile lab environments. I'll ask my teacher about this.

This (http://webpages.charter.net/researchfraud/page5.html) is one of the reasons I say that animals should not be tested on for human research...

RICHARD

01-08-2004, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
I suppose you're right that knowingly ill animals shouldn't be sold to the public...I don't believe, that unless the experiments themselves caused the sicknesses, that the animals would be ill. Especially rats that are kpt in very sterile lab environments. I'll ask my teacher about this.

This (http://webpages.charter.net/researchfraud/page5.html) is one of the reasons I say that animals should not be tested on for human research...

Very Good!

Now what we may never know is how many people WOULD die had those drugs not been used on animals.

I understand your concern about animal testing but we cannot allow big companies to test on humans alone...

Also ask you teacher about THALIDOMINE,

Ask first then go look it up. Compare what they say to what is printed in the records. Or you can do it to see just how much the teach has read about it...

If they are 'STAND UP' teachers, they will help you get material, if they do not know, or be with
you as you look for it.

P.s.

I am not always right.

When you look at both sides of an issue and put yourself in the middle you can never be wrong.;)

Just don't tell anyone else.....

Twisterdog

01-09-2004, 12:34 AM

Pig heart valves ? Ever hear of one that worked for longer than a few days ?

Shhhhh .... don't tell the tens of thousands of people in the world today who have pig heart valves keeping them alive for years and years and years.

lizbud

01-09-2004, 11:11 AM

Did you all see this ? Pretty weird "Show & Tell".:rolleyes:

Pa. Boy Faints at Sight of Cadaver's Arm
Thu Jan 8, 4:35 PM ET Add Strange News - AP to My Yahoo!

By JUDY LIN, Associated Press Writer

PITTSBURGH - A doctor's idea of show and tell — opening up a cadaver arm in front of fifth-graders for a lesson in anatomy and art — caused one student to faint and made others feel sick from the smell of formaldehyde.

Some parents complained to a board member at the Fox Chapel Area School District. School officials Thursday said they would look into the matter.

The limb was brought in Tuesday by Dr. Michael Horowitz, a neurosurgeon whose children attend Fairview Elementary School in Fox Chapel, a well-to-do suburb about five miles east of Pittsburgh.

Horowitz, whose son was in the classroom, was using the arm as a visual aid for a discussion on the 1875 Thomas Eakins painting "The Gross Clinic," which shows a surgeon removing diseased bone from a patient's thigh. A 19th-century art critic called the work "a picture that even strong men find it difficult to look at long, if they can look at it at all."

During the discussion, Horowitz opened the cadaver arm to show students nerves, tendons and other parts. There was no blood. He said he discussed carpal tunnel syndrome and explained to the children how there isn't really a funny bone.

"I've found kids are actually pretty tolerant of seeing stuff like this. They don't really see it as disgusting. When you see it in a lab, it's different," Horowitz said.

The boy who fainted had passed out for 10 to 20 seconds and was taken to the nurse, district spokeswoman Bonnie Berzonski said. He returned to school the next day, she said.

Five of the 66 students left the classroom at some point because of the strong smell of the preservatives, Berzonski said.

School member Shirley Wiley said about 10 parents called her to say they were stunned they were not notified about the presentation.

"In this case it was totally the parents' call. I think they had the right to do so," Wiley said.

The doctor said he was surprised by the complaints, saying he has visited the class and other schools with cadaver ears and eyes, as well as dog and rat brains.

"These same kids are taken to `The Matrix' and see people's heads blow off," Horowitz said. "We sort of accept it when it's entertainment but this is science."

The district has received no complaints about Horowitz's past visits but will review his most recent one to determine whether it was appropriate for fifth-graders, Berzonski said.

Students were told about the discussion in advance. However, "in hindsight, probably a letter should have been sent home and we will be doing that in the future," Berzonski said.

___

GoldenRetrLuver

01-09-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by lizbud
Did you all see this ? Pretty weird "Show & Tell".:rolleyes:

He did this in front of 5th graders? Smart move. :rolleyes: I personally, think that's way too young to be doing a disection, or even a demonstration of one.

Soledad

01-09-2004, 12:48 PM

I dissected a lamb's heart and lungs in fifth grade. No one was traumatized and quite a few of us (girls especially) decided that science was way cooler than we had thought.

mimi420

01-09-2004, 09:40 PM

Twisterdog, they actually made you torture and kill a frog! That's horrible! I hope that highschool doesn't do that anymore! Totally inhumane. I would have been crying and throwing up if they made me do that!:confused:

wolfsoul

01-09-2004, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD
Very Good!

Now what we may never know is how many people WOULD die had those drugs not been used on animals.

I would assume less lol. If it wasn't tested on anything, people would be much less amused at the thought of trying the drug for themselves. Without any customers....

mimi420

01-09-2004, 10:48 PM

Ibelieve in testing on murderers and child abusers.

IttyBittyKitty

01-10-2004, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by 2kitties
I say be respectful of the animals contribution and try to learn as much as you can so the opportunity does not go to waste.

This is a good point, but I think it is going too far to have people dissecting animals like frogs and cats (to whom some young kids might have emotional attachement) ... I think that for a lot of children, dissecting a moggy that looks like kitty at home would be just too disturbing!

College students are different, especially if they are future vets!

G.P.girl

01-10-2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by mimi420
I believe in testing on murderers and child abusers.

ME TOO!!!

Cataholic

01-10-2004, 02:51 PM

We can have high schoolers (and even younger, it seems by reading some posts) dissect an animal but we can't have frank discussions on sex, birth control, homosexuality.

Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:

G.P.girl

01-10-2004, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic

Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:
yes..it is...isn't it?.....:rolleyes:

Twisterdog

01-10-2004, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by mimi420
Twisterdog, they actually made you torture and kill a frog! That's horrible! I hope that highschool doesn't do that anymore! Totally inhumane. I would have been crying and throwing up if they made me do that!:confused:

Yes, they did. It was truly one of the most horrible things I've ever had to see ... especially the ones that didn't quite go right, and the frogs weren't quite brain dead enough when they started on them. I won't go into any more details, but you get the idea, I'm sure. :( :(

IttyBittyKitty

01-11-2004, 12:43 AM

lizbud

01-11-2004, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Cataholic
We can have high schoolers (and even younger, it seems by reading some posts) dissect an animal but we can't have frank discussions on sex, birth control, homosexuality.

Hmm......interesting.....verrrrrry interesting....:rolleyes:

Cataholic,

Just to clarify a point, who is the WE you are refering to in
this statement? Do you mean discussion in schools, or do you
mean here on Pet Talk? Thanks.

Cataholic

01-11-2004, 06:24 PM

Liz,
I was referring to the educational system. People cry out over dissecting animals- "but, its for SCIENCE"...when, in truth, we can learn of these things other ways. MOST of us do not need this 'skill', and are more routinely turned off by it than not (exceptions apply).

But, talk about sex, birth control, sexual orientation, and BY GOSH! How dare we 'educate' the children. Yet, surely this is a science-y as the above, isn't it? I see hypocrisy at its finest here.

Since we can't teach every one everything, why not stick to the core basics? Most of us will experience sex, birth control, sexual orientation, even drugs/alcohol ALOT more often then we will dissecting any animal. So, like a pyramid...start at the base, with the core stuff. Leave the (IMO) non-core stuff to either higher grades, trade specific schools, post secondary education, etc.

Now, as it would be, I am totally turned off by disection of anything. I have difficulty de-boning a chicken. AND, I am pro-education when it comes to the other stuff, too.

Kfamr

01-11-2004, 06:30 PM

Uhhh.. As far as I can remember, we have Health classes (which I took last semester) which taught us about sex, sexual orientation, birth control, drugs, and alcohol. Which this class is manditory to graduate.

GoldenRetrLuver

01-11-2004, 06:35 PM

For part of the year in 8th grade, we had Sexual Education. I'm also taking it this year, in Biology for part of the year.

Cataholic

01-11-2004, 06:36 PM

Maybe if I reply to everyone of your posts...you will see it. Please leave me alone. Please. I have tried ignoring you. Please just leave me alone.

lizbud

01-11-2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic
Liz,
I was referring to the educational system. People cry out over dissecting animals- "but, its for SCIENCE"...when, in truth, we can learn of these things other ways. MOST of us do not need this 'skill', and are more routinely turned off by it than not (exceptions apply).

But, talk about sex, birth control, sexual orientation, and BY GOSH! How dare we 'educate' the children. Yet, surely this is a science-y as the above, isn't it? I see hypocrisy at its finest here.

Since we can't teach every one everything, why not stick to the core basics? Most of us will experience sex, birth control, sexual orientation, even drugs/alcohol ALOT more often then we will dissecting any animal. So, like a pyramid...start at the base, with the core stuff. Leave the (IMO) non-core stuff to either higher grades, trade specific schools, post secondary education, etc.

Now, as it would be, I am totally turned off by disection of
anything. I have difficulty de-boning a chicken. AND, I am pro-education when it comes to the other stuff, too.

Thanks. And for the record, I agree with you completely.:)