Morning After Pill may soon be OTC. Thoughts?

[2kitties]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. I'm so torn and simply can't make up my mind.
The Morning After Pill may soon be available over the counter.

On the one hand, I see a valuable alternative to unwanted pregnancy, risky abortion, etc. It apparently has no side effects and keeps the egg from implanting. It seems to me as a great way to avoid abortion- to simply avoid conception. It can help decrease unwanted children and pregnancy, thereby decreasing abortion frequency. On the surface, it seems like a fantastic option for women.

But on the other hand, if it is so readily available, will it become just an abused form of birth control? It seems like a Pandora's Box for irresponsible sex. Imagine young women with little regard for their own bodies, simply seeing this as a means of fixing their mistakes, rather than taking proper precautions. Even the name of the pill- Plan B- makes me feel the marketing is way to casual.

I don't know. Is this a good idea that will help society, or a good idea with horrible consequences. I'm not certain this is a debate between the pro-life and pro-choice. I think it is more a debate on whether it's a good planned parenting option for women in America. I'm okay with the pill, just not sure it should be OTC.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/12/16/morning.after.pill/index.html

[Soledad]

Amen, Allelujah, Praise Jesus, Glory Be....


That's all I have to say. :)

[2kitties]

No, Tell us how you really feel Soledad;)

[Soledad]

I can't wait to be able to go out and have all sorts of irresponsible sex now!! :p

[G.P.girl]

*snort* well if thats how you feel soledad......;)
i think it's stupid and that it's going to encourage teenage sex and there are going top be more teen pregnanies because they are going to sleep in and/or forget to take it.IMO anyways

[Soledad]

Sleep in? It's a morning after pill to prevent ovulation. You take it after sex. :rolleyes:

[2kitties]

hmmmm, I wonder if there will be age requirements to purchase?

[2kitties]

Everybody read the link to learn about the topic. Then post.

[Soledad]

Wow, ya think? :rolleyes: :p

[G.P.girl]

but it says up to 72 hours so somepeople who are dumb and think you're s'posed to take it the next morning cuz of the name (like me:p ) might do that. or they might fall asleep right when they are done or whatever.

[2kitties]

The name of the pill is Plan B.

See this is my point. I'm not certain the average American woman is quite ready for this kind of thing. Clearly not all women will understand it.

And, will it increase the number of sexually transmitted disease. Whether we like to belive it or not, many women only use protection to prevent pregnancy. Especially teens.

It's too bad there are so many negs to what should be such a great solution to social problems. Think of the economics alone.

[Soledad]

I don't think it'll increase the number of STDs. People who would abuse this method, are abusing other methods as well.

At least it ensures that people stupid enough to use this method w/o regard to STDs do not breed. :)

[lizbud]

Originally posted by Soledad
Sleep in? It's a morning after pill to prevent ovulation. You take it after sex. :rolleyes:

Seems not many people do read the info before commenting.

The article says;

" Plan B works by keeping a fertilized egg from implanting in the wall of the uterus. If the egg is already attached to the uterine wall -- which happens from seven to nine days after the egg is fertilized -- Plan B will not have any effect.

This is in contrast to the so-called abortion pill, mifepristone or RU-486. Emergency contraceptives prevent pregnancies from forming, while the abortion pill terminates the developing fertilized egg attached to the uterine wall, according to the Mayo Clinic. "

It does not prevent ovulation but works to prevent the egg
from attaching to the uterine wall. This is the part of the article
that sounds troubling;

" Plan B contains a high dose of a hormone found in traditional birth control pills which can cause blood clots in certain people.

"If this is over-the-counter, it will be a high dose of this drug," said Wendy Wright of the Concerned Women for America, a public policy organization. "So it's likely to cause all kinds of unknown problems, and women are more likely to use it repeatedly."

[Cataholic]

On pharmaceutical use in general, "If it comes in a pill form, I want it!"


Bring it on. Sign me up. Can I get it at CVS? Is it covered on my plan?


If having unprotected sex, with various people, risking life, limb and the chance of pregnancy doesn't stop people from ENGAGING in the behavior, why is it that PROMOTING the morning after pill will ENCOURAGE the behavior?

One doesn't bring on the other. If it did, the converse would also be true. It isn't.

I use this similar argument with people that don't 'hit' their kids, because of 'the message it sends". Your kids ain't gettin the message, cause they hit, despite the fact you don't hit them.

The problem is not the availability of alternate forms of birth control (used loosely here). So, eliminating the forms of birth control won't stop the sex. Gotta do something different.

[pit chic]

I'm kinda riding the fence on this one. I think Plan B is a great idea for say, someone who has been raped and doesn't want to give birth to a living reminder of that event. But if someone is too irresponsible to be on "the pill" and condoms while having sex with anything and everything, how is Plan B going to make them responsible? It will just keep them from becoming parents. If people take Plan B to prevent unwanted pregnancies, then they will still continue having unprotected sex and AIDS will eventually plague the US as it is doing to Africa. The ones who need to be on "the pill" or Plan B such as welfare junkies, won't want to take it because if they stop getting pregnant, then their benefits stop too. And the breeding continues.

Yes, Plan B is a good way to prevent unwanted pregnancies, so is "the pill" and abstinence. It's just one more contraceptive on the market that may or may not be a big hit. It's really going to depend on people's moral stand point.

[Cataholic]

AND, I apologize ahead of time for those of you I will offend with my cavalier attitude on sex in general, and my pro-choice attitude.

[Logan]

Has anyone researched this enough to find any statistics regarding this Plan B pill? I'm just interested in knowing how effective it is, overall, in comparison to other birth control methods, none of which seem to be 100%, other than hysterectomy.

[2kitties]

I think I'm all for it with age requirements. I think it should be held behind the counter and administered by the pharmacist.

I think that if there are no age requirements, then teenage girls will use it as a primary form of birth control because they are uncomfortable talking with their parents and getting on the pill.

It is working very well in France and other European countries. That is a bit different because sexuality is openly talked about and educated in Europe. Here in the states, SEX is still a dirty word. So, kids are doing it without the proper information. They dont' understand STD's and birth control because we won't friggin talk about it. The moral majority and their abstinence line is about as inneffective as anything I've ever seen. Case in point: my AIDS post a while back. High school kids beliving there is a pill to cure HIV. Dear lord. We are obviously giving parents too much credit with this stuff. There are plenty of people- grownups too- who believe they double their protection by using two condoms.
No. I don't see it. Teens aren't ready for this stuff.

But for the rest of us. I love it.

[2kitties]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Logan
Has anyone researched this enough to find any statistics regarding this Plan B pill? I'm just interested in knowing how effective it is, overall, in comparison to other birth control methods, none of which seem to be 100%, other than hysterectomy. [/QUOTE

The first paragraph of the article I posted says this pill is 89% effective if taken in the first 72 hours.

And Cat, I luv ya!

[Logan]

Well, I read it, 2Kitties, but obviously not well enough!!!! :o Thanks for pointing that out. Seems that there are much more effective methods available. I just hope this one won't be abused. It certainly would not be my method of choice.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by Logan
Well, I read it, 2Kitties, but obviously not well enough!!!! :o Thanks for pointing that out. Seems that there are much more effective methods available. I just hope this one won't be abused. It certainly would not be my method of choice.
Logan, I hope you didn't take that the way I think it may have sounded. I was just pointing out where I got my info, not giving you a hard time. My poor communication. Sorry about that.

[RICHARD]

After a few deaths by hemorrhage, side effects- I love those disclaimers on the telly--you may go blind, your arse may hurt or you will grow tufts of hair in you nasal/ear passages, Do not take if you are nursing, but it's quite alright for doctors!!- and the stupid people-who-took-it- and-get-preggers-anyway lawsuits it will get pulled of the shelf for a little 'fine tuning'.

Everything is solved with a pill.

I can eat until my stomach explodes if I take a Pepcid AC, Never cough again with what ever pill
that replaces an inhaler and make love like a bunny with Viagra.....

BTW, I must be a gas to sit around after you are done waiting for the 'tide to ebb'.....As you get older the urge to breathe is far more important than the urge to procreate. How I know this I do not know ;)

Imagine the look of surprise on your face when the
PLUS sign becomes visible on the 'stick'...

"But I followed Plan B"!

No go....Responsibility doesn't cost a cent.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by RICHARD
After a few deaths by hemorrhage, side effects- I love those disclaimers on the telly--you may go blind, your arse may hurt or you will grow tufts of hair in you nasal/ear passages, Do not take if you are nursing, but it's quite alright for doctors!!- and the stupid people-who-took-it- and-get-preggers-anyway lawsuits it will get pulled of the shelf for a little 'fine tuning'.

Everything is solved with a pill.

I can eat until my stomach explodes if I take a Pepcid AC, Never cough again with what ever pill
that replaces an inhaler and make love like a bunny with Viagra.....

BTW, I must be a gas to sit around after you are done waiting for the 'tide to ebb'.....As you get older the urge to breathe is far more important than the urge to procreate. How I know this I do not know ;)

Imagine the look of surprise on your face when the
PLUS sign becomes visible on the 'stick'...

"But I followed Plan B"!

No go....Responsibility doesn't cost a cent.

Richard, you may be right. But I want to make sure you aren't confusing this pill with RU-486. That one is the abortion pill. It does not stop implantation. It aborts the zygot- or whatever it's called at that stage. Anyway, this one is not the same and- they claim- it doesn't have the blood pressure/hemoraging/etc side effects of RU-486.

[Logan]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Logan, I hope you didn't take that the way I think it may have sounded. I was just pointing out where I got my info, not giving you a hard time. My poor communication. Sorry about that.

No offense taken, I promise. I was just embarrassed that I didn't catch that in the article!!! :o

If I take offense, I promise, I will always send you a PM. :)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Cataholic
cavalier attitude on sex in general, and my pro-choice attitude.

I actually hated the Cavalier.

There was no room in the back seat.....But the station wagon was something else!!!
:eek:

2K,

thanks for the verification....
The inserts/package reading should be interesting!

[lovemyshiba]

Originally posted by Cataholic
AND, I apologize ahead of time for those of you I will offend with my cavalier attitude on sex in general, and my pro-choice attitude.

No offense taken here!!
If administered properly, with age requirements, I think it is a good thing.
Not pointing any fingers, and I'm sorry if this comes out harshly, but if you're too irresponsible to read the instructions or be awake any time within 72 hours after sex, please, please, you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

[andrea_NMAggie]

When I heard about this one the news the other day, I was pretty surprised. I've had to use Plan B in the past, and must say that it would be a great convenience in being able to go to a drugstore, instead of having to call into my consulting nurse, have them call in the prescription, and drive out of my way to the nearest clinic that might be open on that day/night. By making this available OTC, it would help in the timeliness of taking the pill...and we all know that its effectiveness is best withing 72 hours.

Its hard to really make this assumption, but I don't think that this product will be used as a substitution of other forms of birth control, simply because it generally gives the person taking it a bit of an upset stomach...which many people would rather avoid.

[Tonya]

Well, I am dead set against abortion. -Even if it was a rape. So, in my mind, I like the idea of the morning after pill. But, I can surely see how it will be abused.

[micki76]

I don't understand adult women who don't have the sense to protect themselves against pregnancy and disease! I mean, isn't it easier to take birth control if you think you may have sex? If you know you will have sex in advance, take the friggin' pills, use the friggin' condoms or DON'T DO IT. DUH. Simple.

If you're not smart enough to at least protect yourself, get out of he gene pool people!

I think teens will use it for the reason that 2K said. They can't talk to mom & dad about sex and have no access to any other form of BC, though they can generally purchase condoms. But I'm sure it's very difficult to get a teen boy to use condoms.

I was very lucky to have a mother who realized that no matter how much she punished, grounded or yelled, I was going to have sex if I wanted going to have sex and she put me on birth control as a teen.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by 2kitties
I think that if there are no age requirements, then teenage girls will use it as a primary form of birth control because they are uncomfortable talking with their parents and getting on the pill.


Have you ever used the morning after pill? I think most girls might screw up and use it -ONCE-...then realize what HELL you have to go through as it does its work...and be more responsible next time. It would be a very painful thing to abuse.

I'm against age restrictions on it though...I was sexually abused from age 12 to 14, and I can't imagine I am alone in that.

Edit: Just as a random add-on, I also thing you should be allowed to get permanent sterilization surgery when you're 18...no questions asked. I've been battling with several doctors about this since my 18th birthday. :mad:

[Tonya]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Edit: Just as a random add-on, I also thing you should be allowed to get permanent sterilization surgery when you're 18...no questions asked. I've been battling with several doctors about this since my 18th birthday. :mad:

I don't know, WolfChan. The case is very different for everyone, but I must say, I have 3 friends that were refused sterilization by doctors. They all swore on their lives that they'd never want kids. One is now 40, and finally convinced a doctor to do it, which she doesn't regret.

The other is 25, had one kid...because of degenerative back disease, the birth was so painful that she wanted her tubes tied. The doctors refused and she is very frustrated because she is dead set on not having kids.

The third, 27 years old was the one that I'd thought would never have kids for sure. She hated them. No patience or interest what so ever. Now, out of the blue, she's found her soulmate that wants kids so bad. He's somehow changed her perspective on children and she's so thankful that she hadn't gotten her tubes tied.

Even though you are 99.9% sure, I don't think it hurts much to wait. Birth control isn't all that inconvenient.

[Twisterdog]

Edit: Just as a random add-on, I also thing you should be allowed to get permanent sterilization surgery when you're 18...no questions asked. I've been battling with several doctors about this since my 18th birthday.

AMEN to that!!!! What gives with that anyway?!?! I have NEVER understood why some middle-aged male doctor has the right to tell a woman how many children she WILL want to have in ten years? Excuuuuse me??

We can go to the doctor and get a face-lift, a breast enlargement, a butt-lift, etc. ... surgeries that have NO medical value whatsoever, are purely cosmetic. But ... we can't get our tubes tied. What?!?! :mad:

I wanted my tubes tied after I had my son. I KNEW I NEVER wanted anymore kids. I was twenty-three years old. Nope, no way, no one would do it. NOT fair.

[Twisterdog]

Even though you are 99.9% sure, I don't think it hurts much to wait. Birth control isn't all that inconvenient.

So ... what are you saying ... that a woman who is 99.9% sure that she doesn't want kids and wants her tubes tied is still incapable of making that rational decision? And that a male doctor knows better??

I have no doubt whatsoever that many people that have their tubes tied change their minds and regret it later. Well, guess what ... regret is part of life. It teaches you to make better decisions.

Women who quietly buy into the "Father Knows Best" attitude of paternalistic organizations in this country are feeding the unspoken belief that women are too silly and stupid to know their own minds and too unpredictable to be able to control their own bodies and make their own decisions. NO ONE knows what I want better than I do. And if I'm wrong later on down the road, well, so be it. I'll deal with. My mind, my body, my choices ... I don't need Ward Cleaver patting my hand and telling me "There, there, dear." Puhleeeesse.

My boyfriend got a vasectomy years ago. No one questioned him, or told him he would regret it, and the doctor sure as heck didn't refuse to do it! If any doctor ever did the condescending, patronizing crap to a man that they do to women everyday, there would be a lawsuit, and quick, I promise you.

[CathyBogart]

I'm sorry Tonya, but I think that's very sad. He has "somehow" changed her perspective? Does this involve in some way saying "Kids or me"? If Brian ever got baby rabies I would be out the door in a heartbeat - Just as long as it took to grab my snake's tank and walk away.

I think it's very sad when people are pressured to have kids because it's the "Right" thing to do, or when their spouse manipulates them into doing something they don't want to do.

Twisterdog: My family has a friend who is a lawyer, and she's right now looking into legal options for me. Heck, maybe I'll bring her into the doc's office with me next time I go in! :D :D :D

[Tonya]

I think that it should truly be the woman's choice. You are right, no doctor should tell you what to do with your body. -I actually even agree with that when it comes to abortion. Everyone should have a choice on what they do.

In fact, I'm going to wander a bit off the subject. When I say that I am deadset against abortion, I am referring to myself. It is for very deep and personal reasons.

What I am saying about steralization is that it wouldn't hurt to much to wait. But that is simply an opinion. That should be your decision, not a doctors.

As far as my friend goes, Wolf...I don't know what's up. She's an entirely different person since she met this guy. I hope to God that it is because she is happy and not because she is brainwashed. I suppose we'll find out in due time.

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Twisterdog: My family has a friend who is a lawyer, and she's right now looking into legal options for me. Heck, maybe I'll bring her into the doc's office with me next time I go in! :D :D :D

I so hope it works out for you. I've been where you are standing now, and it is not fun.

And guess what, people? Everyone who is smugly stating, "Just use birth control. It's not that hard. What, is she too stupid to use birth control?" Well, holier-than-thou folks ... news flash ... there is NO method of birth contol, save abstinance, that is 100% effective. Birth control fails sometimes. How many people walking around in this country today are living, breathing proof of that?

I have a twelve year old son. I LOVE him dearly. I never planned to have him. I never planned to have any children. I faithfully and correctly used birth control always ... and I got pregnant anyway. It happens. It changes lives, it sometimes ruins lives. It can happen to ANY of us. Yes ... it can.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
And guess what, people? Everyone who is smugly stating, "Just use birth control. It's not that hard. What, is she too stupid to use birth control?" Well, holier-than-thou folks ... news flash ... there is NO method of birth contol, save abstinance, that is 100% effective. Birth control fails sometimes. How many people walking around in this country today are living, breathing proof of that?

I would like to agree and applaud you and add my own...

PEOPLE ARE MANIPULATIVE! I made sure my ex and I used birth control regularly. HE was the one who purposely got me pregnant by POPPING A CONDOM to force me not to dump him. I never thought that trusting someone I loved would have such horrible results. (This led to all sorts of problems in the beginning of my current relationship, but that's another rant)

My co-worker got pregnant once on the shot, and TWICE after she got her tubes tied.

It's not as simple as hign and mighty people who have never been in that situation make it sound. "What a moron, how could she go and get herself pregnant at sixteen?" EXCUSE THE FRAG OUT OF ME FOR TRUSTING A MAN I HAD BEEN WITH FOR TWO YEARS!

On another board there was a thread about the poor girl who died after using the abortion pill. I was brought to tears by all the responses that basically said "Good, one more idiot who can't use BC wiped out of the gene pool!" Goddess, that could have been me! At least the man was standing by the poor girl and they were doing something about it.

Erf, I apologize for completely hijacking this thread.

[Tonya]

I do agree there. I was faithfully on the pill when I got pregnant with Jaden.

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by WolfChan
On another board there was a thread about the poor girl who died after using the abortion pill. I was brought to tears by all the responses that basically said "Good, one more idiot who can't use BC wiped out of the gene pool!" Goddess, that could have been me! At least the man was standing by the poor girl and they were doing something about it.

Erf, I apologize for completely hijacking this thread.


I don't think you have hijacked the thread at all. I think everything we are talking about is related .... birth control methods, manipulative people, closed-minded attitudes, etc. These are all very real issues women face ... the Plan B pill is just one more option on the list.

And to all who would say something like, "Good, one more idiot who can't use BC wiped out of the gene pool!" .... I would say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Or, if you're not into the Bible, the old "walk a mile in her shoes" saying fits, as well.


One of my favorite songs of all time is "What It's Like" by Everlast .......

"We've all seen the man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dreadlocked and full of mange
He ask the man for what he could spare with shame in his eyes
Get a job you f**kin' slob's all he replied

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues
Then you really might know what it's like

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love
He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of
But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared god d*mn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his b*lls
And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a wh*re

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose
Then you really might know what it's like

I've seen a rich man beg
I've seen a good man sin
I've seen a tough man cry
I've seen a loser win
And a sad man grin
I heard an honest man lie
I've seen the good side of bad
And the down side of up
And everything between
I licked the silver spoon
Drank from the golden cup
Smoked the finest green
I stroked daddies dimes at least a couple of times
Before I broke their heart
You know where it ends
Yo, it usually depends on where you start

I knew this kid named Max
He used to get fat stacks out on the corner with drugs
He liked to hang out late at night
Liked to get sh*t faced
And keep pace with thugs
Until late one night there was a big gun fight
Max lost his head
He pulled out his chrome .45
Talked some sh*t
And wound up dead
Now his wife and his kids are caught in the midst of all of his pain
You know it crumbles that way
At least that's what they say when you play the game

God forbid you ever had to wake up to hear the news
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to lose
Then you really might know what it's like
To have to lose...

[Fox-Gal]

If there is an age requirement and sold behind the counter by the druggist then I don't have a big problem with it. It should only be sold to adults that can fully understand all the risks in taking it.

I can see a use for it for woman that are not sexually active, they might not want to go on any other form of birth control. But there could be that one time they were not counting on where these pills could come in handy.

But for it to be hanging right next to the condoms for anyone to pick up......then NO.

I can picture it now, a 15/16 year old girl goes out on her date, but first they have to stop at the drug store so she can pick up her morning after pills and again the next night, and the next night, etc. Or the boy who tells his girfrind, "I got these pills for you so you don't have to worry about anything, you won't get pregent." "you know it's safe or else they wouldn't sell them" "Trust me."

I went to walmart the other day and bought spray paint and because I bought over 3 cans, the register rang up an age check. You had to be over 18 to buy 3 or more cans of spray paint. But it might be OK to buy the morning after pill at any age. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry but I strongly belive you should have to go up to the counter and face the druggist and ask for the pills, with a age check and handed all the information needed to use it responsible before ever being able to buy it.

[Twisterdog]

If there is an age requirement and sold behind the counter by the druggist then I don't have a big problem with it. It should only be sold to adults that can fully understand all the risks in taking it.

Sure, in theory, only adults could buy it because only adults would need it, right ... in a perfect world. But, in a perfect world, there would be no need for a product such as this anyway. It's not a perfect world.

So, a fourteen year old having sex shouldn't be allowed access to this product? It would be a million times better if fourteen year olds didn't have sex at all, no argument there. Reality check: fourteen year olds have sex. Thirteen year olds have sex. Twelve year olds have sex. Such is our world.

[dukedogsmom]

I think it's great!

[Maresche]

I also think it is a great idea. I wish it wasn't necessary, but that ain't the case.

My only concern is regarding any health complications.

[pit chic]

Ok, so doctors won't tie a womans tubes or do a hysterctomy until a certain age for fear of being sued. Besides it's more dangerous and not always reversible when a woman gets it done. So I have a solution that people on both sides of the contraception issue could agree on.

All males that reach sexual maturity should have a vasectamy. When they are old enough and ready to have kids, then they can have the procedure reversed.

[2kitties]

Well, that may be true, pit chic, ( and lord knows there are plenty of men out there who seriously need to be sterilized!) but while vasectomies are reversable, they are not without complication or risk.

The thing with that idea and the idea that a woman can't choose to have her tubes tied is that it interferes with a person's right to make their own reproductive choices. So, it just doesn't work. While I'm personally not a big fan of abortion because in my mind there is a second life to consider, the idea that someone can tell me what I can and can't do with my reproductive organs when there isn't a baby involved just makes me angry.

[pit chic]

Yeah, it's your body and you have the right to do with it what you want. But there's probably been countless lawsuits againts doctors who have steralized women who ended up changing their minds later, even though they were dead set against having kids before.

If men were required to be temporarily sterilized there would probably be a lot less unwanted children and/or fatherless children being born. Yes there are risks with any surgery no matter how minor but, a vasectomy is less risky then a hysterectomy. While I agree that a woman has the right to do with herself what she wants, what right do people have to bring an unwanted child into this world for the rest of society to take care of?

[Vio&Juni]

You can buy it in any pharmacy here, any age, (well, not 5 yo, of course) for some years already. I knew only about 69% sure. It is definitely not to be used as a method of contraception, it's not a plan B, it is for special cases - problems with the condom, rape, or things like this. It is not so reliable, but it is a good thing.

I think, it should be available to anyone. It didn't change the attitude toward unprotected sex - who did it before, is still doing it and who was careful, still is. Different educational methods need to be used, this is not a problem to be solved by forbidding the sale of one pill.

[2kitties]

Requiring anyone to be sterilized- even temporarily- is absurd.
Forced surgery....hmmmm.... have you ever spoken to a man who's had a vastectomy? I have and any of them will tell you it is horribly painful. Forced painful surgery.....hmmmm..... sounds like communism in a free country.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by Vio&Juni
You can buy it in any pharmacy here, any age, (well, not 5 yo, of course) for some years already. I knew only about 69% sure. It is definitely not to be used as a method of contraception, it's not a plan B, it is for special cases - problems with the condom, rape, or things like this. It is not so reliable, but it is a good thing.

I think, it should be available to anyone. It didn't change the attitude toward unprotected sex - who did it before, is still doing it and who was careful, still is. Different educational methods need to be used, this is not a problem to be solved by forbidding the sale of one pill.

You're right, V&J, but you're speaking as a European. In the US, we're so darn stingy with our sex ed we'd bunk it up for sure. ;)

[micki76]

Originally posted by pit chic
Yeah, it's your body and you have the right to do with it what you want.

If men were required to be temporarily sterilized there would probably be a lot less unwanted children and/or fatherless children being born.

First you say, “Yeah, it's your body and you have the right to do with it what you want.”

Then you say, “If men were required to be temporarily sterilized there would probably be a lot less unwanted children and/or fatherless children being born.”

So a man should have no say in what’s done to his body?

Sorry, your argument doesn’t work.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am an advocate of ANYTHING that helps to prevent unplanned/unwanted pregnancies. Is there anything more stunting to a young woman's future than an unplanned child???

I can't imagine anyone thinking..."Oh, it's okay to have unprotected sex because I can run to the pharmacy tomorrow and get plan B!"

The sex drive is very strong. I admire those who have never had unplanned/unprotected sex. However, I see no reason to put obstacles in the way of preventing a pregnancy.

[Vio&Juni]

2kitties, Moldova is still not Western Europe, if you meant that. We still have a long way to go, and believe me, I am not a representative of my country. So many people are so ignorant and this is what I meant, actually. You can't change those. If they thought that it's enough to (sorry for the details) pee after sex in order to avoid a pregnancy, this pill will not imediately change their attitude, but for those that were smart enough, or almost smart, this pill is not a salvation, it's to be used in special cases.

[pit chic]

Actually I have and the only pain one guy had was he didn't take the doctors advice and take it easy like he was supposed to. I don't know of anyone who had surgery for any reason that didn't have some pain or discomfort afterwards.

I never said it was the absolute solution to a worldwide problem, but I'm sure it will start to look like a good idea when this country becomes rediculously overpopulated. Take a drive through the ghetto and see as one woman is walking down the street with her 5 kids under the age of 6, one in a stroller and one on the way. Where is the father(s)? Somewhere else making more unwanted kids. But hey, they have the right to procreate, leaving society to pay for their mistake(s) don't they?

[2kitties]

Very true. I agree with you. I think I keep hearing the great results of this pill in France and I don't think sexual enlightenment in the US comes ANYWHERE near that of France.

Anyway, I just hope it isn't- like someone said- hanging out by the Trojans. It just feels like dangerous ground to me.

Personally, I'd prefer to see birth control be easier to get (the pill). I realize it has side effects so it needs to be regulated by a doctor and can't be otc, but there needs to be an easy private way that young girls can get it. But the flip side of that is that it could make them more prone to disease. No matter what we want to think, most teens view pregnancy as the worst consquence of sex. They often feel invulnerable to disease. I believe that average teen would not use a condom if pregnancy was taken out of the equation.

[andrea_NMAggie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by micki76
[B]I don't understand adult women who don't have the sense to protect themselves against pregnancy and disease! I mean, isn't it easier to take birth control if you think you may have sex? If you know you will have sex in advance, take the friggin' pills, use the friggin' condoms or DON'T DO IT. DUH. Simple.

If you're not smart enough to at least protect yourself, get out of he gene pool people!

******

What i don't think you're getting, is that this ISN'T birth control, its called "Plan B" for a reason. Like: what to do if your current method of BC fails. I wasn't on the birth control pill during the incident that I used this product. I had just received a prescription for the pill, but had to wait for the proper time of the month to protect myself. So there came the condom...and yes, condoms do fail!! I'm grateful to have had Plan B during that incident, and think about how much less stressed out I could have been if I could have just gone to the store to take care of myself, instead of finding the closest "open" clinic to pick up the prescription at.

I do agree with others in that I think this should be something that you *ask* the pharmacist for...as Plan B is something that you should have explained to you, instead of it just hanging in an aisle.

[2kitties]

Pit Chic, I respect your views but I can't get onboard with the idea of ANY forced medical procedures in our society- no matter the benefits. It's a one way ticket to communism and it breaks EVERY civil rights code on the books. Not to meantion the Bill of Rights etc.

[micki76]

Originally posted by pit chic
Take a drive through the ghetto and see as one woman is walking down the street with her 5 kids under the age of 6, one in a stroller and one on the way. Where is the father(s)? Somewhere else making more unwanted kids. But hey, they have the right to procreate, leaving society to pay for their mistake(s) don't they?

Where are the father(s)? Exactly. What about the woman in the ghetto with her 5 kids under the age of 6? She layed down with the father(s) and had the kids.

I agree that fathers should take care of their children, but to me the women are equally as responsible for creating these children.

[Vio&Juni]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Pit Chic, I respect your views but I can't get onboard with the idea of ANY forced medical procedures in our society- no matter the benefits. It's a one way ticket to communism and it breaks EVERY civil rights code on the books. Not to meantion the Bill of Rights etc.

2kitties, I agree with you, except for one think - in communism no one forces medical procedures on anyone. Maybe you wanted to say dictatorship. Don't get me wrong, and I am not trying to start a discussion about it. I am not an advocate of communism, but, the idea of communism is not to break civil rights, it's the people that can make even a democracy undemocratic.

[pit chic]

We may not be a communist country, but even "free" is limited. There has to be rules and regulations and I'm sure a lot of people view those regulations already in existance as communistic, but the beauty of being a democratic country is that we can lobby congress and vote for what we jointly feel is the best for society. A vasectomy law would probably never be voted for by most men and some woman, but if abortion is ever banned, then someone better think of a better solution to preventing unwanted children besides a pill that may or may not work.

[Vio&Juni]

Originally posted by micki76
Where are the father(s)? Exactly. What about the woman in the ghetto with her 5 kids under the age of 6? She layed down with the father(s) and had the kids.

I agree that fathers should take care of their children, but to me the women are equally as responsible for creating these children.

Again, education is the key factor. Take a look at this (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=2&u=/nm/20031217/hl_nm/health_security_dc)

Don't judge these women, they lack education. It's the responsibility of the state, of the education system, of the civil society, of any of us to bring new ways of avoiding the situation.

[micki76]

Originally posted by andrea_NMAggie
What i don't think you're getting, is that this ISN'T birth control, its called "Plan B" for a reason. Like: what to do if your current method of BC fails. I wasn't on the birth control pill during the incident that I used this product. I had just received a prescription for the pill, but had to wait for the proper time of the month to protect myself. So there came the condom...and yes, condoms do fail!! I'm grateful to have had Plan B during that incident, and think about how much less stressed out I could have been if I could have just gone to the store to take care of myself, instead of finding the closest "open" clinic to pick up the prescription at.

No, I get it. It is a form of birth control in that it's not the abortion pill and it will be used as birth control for many young teens and that worries me for their health. It's a mega dose of the usual birth control pill. Regular BC pills can have deadly side effects and so I would think a mega dose of BC pills can be even more dangerous.

I know it's called Plan B for a reason and so do you, but we're talking about teens having access to this. I have no problem with it being available, just who it's available to.

I do understand what it's for, but I think that if someone's not capable (smart enough) of using regular birth control, this really isn't going to help them. Obviously this doesn't apply to you or your situation.

If they're not smart enough to use it in the first place, I doubt they'll be smart enough to use this.

[2kitties]

V&J, point taken. I guess I'm just thinking of China where girl babies were once aborted and I misappropriatly associate it with communism. Then I think of the African nations where female genital mutiliation is practiced. WTF!!

Pit Chic, I just don't know what else to say in a debate with you on this subject. All I know to say is that Forced Sterilization falls into the same category as female genital mutiliation and forced abortion as far as I'm concerned. Clearly there is a problem with unwanted pregnancy in the US, but there absolutely is a better solution than forced sterilization and surgery. Education is the first thing that comes to mind. Getting our heads out of our bums as Americans and accepting the fact that sex is a part of our lives and our childrens lives and we need to start open communications.

[CathyBogart]

The biggest problem with that is that vasectomies are extraordinarily expensive and painful to reverse, and the reversal isn't very effective.

I want to get my tubes tied because I can't stand children, and neither can my fiancee. I want to get off of the pill because it makes me very sick, and also makes it so that I can't have even the smallest amount of caffiene. For a chocolate junkie like me, these last three years on the pill have been horrid. I've tried four different pills, and they all make me sick. This last one seems to have sucked all of the iron out of my blood. I get nosebleeds several times a week and I get dizzy very easily. I also reacted badly to iron supplements, so I'm not sure what to do.

I could go get an IUD, but that's more painful that a tubal from what my research has told me. It's also less effective and more temporary.

Fortunately, I have the most wonderful man in the world, and he has agreed to get a vasectomy before we get married, since for some stupid reason men don't have as hard of a time getting sterilized.

Edit: There are too many people on the planet as it is, why not encourage the population to drop a bit?

[micki76]

Originally posted by Vio&Juni
Again, education is the key factor. Take a look at this (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=594&e=2&u=/nm/20031217/hl_nm/health_security_dc)

Don't judge these women, they lack education. It's the responsibility of the state, of the education system, of the civil society, of any of us to bring new ways of avoiding the situation.

Ugh.

I’m not judging the women. Or the men. All I was saying is both parties are equally responsible in the creation of a child, unless the woman is raped. Pit chic wants is to sterilize the men and all I was sating is that BOTH PARTIES had sex and made the child. Both are the parents and made the choice to have unprotected sex.

No one should have any form of sterilization forced upon them by the government or anyone else.

[CathyBogart]

I've often thought that in a perfect world everyone would be sterilized at puberty until they were ready to start reproducing. I do realize, that that is a totally unrealistic idea, but it's a nice thought. :)

[pit chic]

WolfChan,

Have you tried a BC with lower amounts of estrogen? I'm on one and I haven't had any problems with feeling sick except when I had to double up. So far it's been effective and it's supposed to be safer for folks who could be prone to breast cancer.

[Twisterdog]

Here's my "perfect world" scenario:

Everyone is born sterile, and remain that way until the following conditions are ALL met:

1. The person has a high enough IQ to function in the world at a reasonable level

2. The person has the means/ambition to support themselves and their children

3. The person is at least 25 years old

4. The person actually wants children, and is emotionally capable of parenting them

Then, and only then, they become fertile.

;)

[2kitties]

lol
See- if only God had hired a woman to make this world.

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
Here's my "perfect world" scenario:

Everyone is born sterile, and remain that way until the following conditions are ALL met:

1. The person has a high enough IQ to function in the world at a reasonable level

2. The person has the means/ambition to support themselves and their children

3. The person is at least 25 years old

4. The person actually wants children, and is emotionally capable of parenting them

Then, and only then, they become fertile.

;)
wouldn't that make life alot easier:rolleyes:

[pit chic]

Amen Twisterdog!!

[Tonya]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
Here's my "perfect world" scenario:

Everyone is born sterile, and remain that way until the following conditions are ALL met:

1. The person has a high enough IQ to function in the world at a reasonable level

2. The person has the means/ambition to support themselves and their children

3. The person is at least 25 years old

4. The person actually wants children, and is emotionally capable of parenting them

Then, and only then, they become fertile.

;)

I second that!!!!!!!

[Tonya]

Here is a prime example:

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38252&highlight=girl+gives+birth+in+dog+pen

[G.P.girl]

Originally posted by Tonya
Here is a prime example:

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38252&highlight=girl+gives+birth+in+dog+pen
exactly

[KitKat023]

Ok, well I see how it could be used well in the case of rape victems. I do think some women will abuse it, more than not. I am anti abortion so I must lean towards otc. But on the other hand, what about guys that see this as a way out of entrapment(via baby) and slip it to some unexpected female. I don't believe in abusing sex, or contraceptives. There are STDs that condoms don't stop. I don't think people should be of any certain age before having a child, given that they atleast finish high school, have a steady job, own their house, and own a car. Maybe a stay at home mom that is married. I will not use it if it comes otc.

[sirrahved]

My thoughts (I am prepared for people to disagree) is that it is very, very bad.

Conception may have already happened, the embryo just hasn't embedded itself in the uterus. Thus aborting a baby, IMHO.

I'm just a hippie christian, and you can say so if you like. I don't like the regular birth control pill, either, because it can do the same thing. (And IUD's ONLY work this way!)

But then again, I'm married and WANT a baby. Maybe I'd feel differently if I were in a rape situation? Probably not, but I don't know.

[momofcats]

Sirrahved,

I completely agree with you. Maybe I should not have even read this thread since I just lost my baby so I might not be thinking rationally ...but it is how I feel.
Because conception may have already happened, the embryo just hasn't embedded itself in the uterus. It is terminating a baby and a pregnancy not "preventing" one.

[Soledad]

A fertilized egg is not a baby.

[G.P.girl]

well i can see both points , but i think it's like an irresonsible thing.....you know? like you use it if you forgot to use a condom of take BC....

[sirrahved]

Originally posted by Soledad
A fertilized egg is not a baby.

That's a matter of opinion...

[Soledad]

No, it's a scientific fact.

Is a fertilized chicken egg a chick?

[pit chic]

I'm gonna have to agree with Soledad on this one. A fertalized egg is still just a cell. Cells don't have heartbeats, brains, or feelings. The fertalized egg cell may only be in the process of dividing into multiple cells at the time the Morning After pill takes affect.

[CathyBogart]

Until there is any brain activity there is no baby. If a person has waited THAT long they can deal with it.

However: Everyone makes mistakes. Some mistakes are bigger than others. Nobody should be made to suffer for the rest of their life because they made a mistake one night. No child should be born into a situation where it is unwanted and resented. Ever.

Finding someone with the money to abuse the plan B pill will be rare. Also, I think it will drive many women to be more responsible after they take it and suffer the side effects.

There are too many people in the world already, and many live in poverty. Why make more people?

[tikeyas_mom]

i think of the morining after pill as a form of abortion.. IMHO i feel that abortion is not a forum of birth control..

[Twisterdog]

Is a fertilized chicken egg a chick?

True. A cell that has been fertilized for a matter of hours or days is a cell, or a few cells ... it is not a human being. I understand that many people have a huge moral issue with abortion, and that is their right. However, it is not their right to confuse the facts ... a fertilized cell is just that - a cell. Just as there is a big difference in an omelette and fried chicken ... right?

And something to note: The "morning after pill" is taken the morning after unprotected sex. Where conception may or may not have occurred. Just because a woman takes this pill, does not mean she was pregnant, not by a long shot. So, even if you think of the pill as a form of "abortion", keep in mind that in the vast majority of cases, the woman taking it is not even pregnant.

[CathyBogart]

Amen Twisterdog!

[momofcats]

Is a fertilized chicken egg a chick?

I understand the point you are trying to make here...but comparing a "possible" human life to a chicken is completely crazy in my opinion.


Until there is any brain activity there is no baby.

So, am I to gather here that a person who does not have brain activity due to an accident, or whatever reason, is not a person and does not deserve human rights?

I am by no means a doctor...but I saw my baby's heart beat at six weeks (I know, long after the morning after pill would have taken place), but just because she didn't have "brain function" did not make her any less of a baby.

[CathyBogart]

A fetus is just a fetus until there is brain activity IMO.

What is wrong with comparing one life to another? A possible human life is almost exactly the same as a possible chicken. In fact, they look almost identical.

[Twisterdog]

comparing a "possible" human life to a chicken is completely crazy in my opinion.

Well, actually, if you will read our analogies again, no one compared chickens to humans at all. Soledad compared an egg to a chicken. I, being hungrier or perhaps crasser, compared an omelette to fried chicken. We were comparing different stages of development of a chicken to each other .... no where did we compare humans to chickens. Small point, I know ... but I think it's important to understand the intended analogy.

Think about in vitro fertilization. A lab worker somewhere takes and egg and some sperm, mixes it all up in a petri dish, and looks at it under the mircroscope. If the sperm has pierced the egg, the lab worker watches it for a while, makes sure it's going to start to divide, then calls the doctor and tells him it can be implanted. Is it a baby? Or is it a cell that has divided once or twice? What if the lab worker slips on the wet floor and drops the dish? Is it murder? NO. A cell is not a baby. Also, if people are paying the huge sum of money required for in vitro fertilization, they are going to make the best of the odds, and try it with many eggs and a lot of sperm. What if, perchance, four eggs are fertilized at once? What happens to the others if only one or two are implanted? Are they "murdered"? NO. They are cells, not babies.







So, am I to gather here that a person who does not have brain activity due to an accident, or whatever reason, is not a person and does not deserve human rights?

Again, no one said that. No one mentioned fully developed human beings, who were injured in an accident. I believe Wolfchan was speaking of the development of the fetus, from cell to embryo to fetus. No one said anything about adult humans. There is a world of difference in the two, as anyone knows. I find statements like that simply be inflammatory.







I saw my baby's heart beat at six weeks (I know, long after the morning after pill would have taken place)

Exactly. Bingo. You hit the nail on the head. Six weeks compared to twelve hours. HUGE difference. One cell compared to a embryo with a beating heart. There is no comparison. And, again ... I would venture to say that they vast majority of women taking the morning after pill are not even pregnant to begin with.

There are lots of reasons someone might need to take this pill. If you are taking birth control pills and throw up, if you are raped, if the condom breaks, and sure - if you are just lazy or drunk or a poor planner. Should it be that way? No. Is it? Yes. The world is not perfect, people are not perfect, things happen.

This pill is what it is and nothing more or less. It is NOT automatic abortion of a fetus. Most of us are smart enough to figure that out. But, at any rate, the facts should not be misconstrued and tainted with emotion. If you are opposed to abortion, that's your right. But the morning after pill is not abortion.

[zanzanfergie]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
Well, actually, if you will read our analogies again, no one compared chickens to humans at all. Soledad compared an egg to a chicken. I, being hungrier or perhaps crasser, compared an omelette to fried chicken. We were comparing different stages of development of a chicken to each other .... no where did we compare humans to chickens. Small point, I know ... but I think it's important to understand the intended analogy.

I actually agree with you on most points, Twisterdog, but I have to object to your comparison of an omelette to fried chicken, as opposed to Soledad's egg to a chicken.

If an egg is allowed to develop naturally, without human intervention, it will usually become a chick. A chicken, on the other hand, is unlikely to become an omelette or fried chicken without human intervention, so I don't agree that these are different stages of a chicken's development. They are what can happen to a chicken, just as a fetuscan be aborted, which is also human intervention, and not a normal development.

Anyway, just MHO. :) For the most part I couldn't agree more with what you're saying, Twisterdog.

[pit chic]

"I have to object to your comparison of an omelette to fried chicken, as opposed to Soledad's egg to a chicken."


I could be wrong but I think the comparisson of the omelette and fried chicken was supposed to be that you aren't killing a chicken by making an omelette, but you are killing a chicken to fry it. Just like you aren't killing a baby by taking the morning after pill because at that point it is still an egg cell, not a baby.

egg cell + morning after pill = omelette (no harm done)

fetus/embryo + abortion = fried chicken (harm done)

Sorry if this equation appears to be callus, that wasn't the intention, just trying to make sense of the chicken/egg confusion.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Soledad
Is a fertilized chicken egg a chick?


Duh, of course not Soledad! A fertilized chicken egg is a BABY! Good gosh. He he he...that is a perfect answer....I will have to incorporate that in my argument with the pro-lifers....

[zanzanfergie]

Originally posted by pit chic
"I have to object to your comparison of an omelette to fried chicken, as opposed to Soledad's egg to a chicken."


I could be wrong but I think the comparisson of the omelette and fried chicken was supposed to be that you aren't killing a chicken by making an omelette, but you are killing a chicken to fry it. Just like you aren't killing a baby by taking the morning after pill because at that point it is still an egg cell, not a baby.

egg cell + morning after pill = omelette (no harm done)

fetus/embryo + abortion = fried chicken (harm done)

Sorry if this equation appears to be callus, that wasn't the intention, just trying to make sense of the chicken/egg confusion.
Oh okay. Maybe you're right. Thanks for explaining it. ;)

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by pit chic
"I have to object to your comparison of an omelette to fried chicken, as opposed to Soledad's egg to a chicken."


I could be wrong but I think the comparisson of the omelette and fried chicken was supposed to be that you aren't killing a chicken by making an omelette, but you are killing a chicken to fry it. Just like you aren't killing a baby by taking the morning after pill because at that point it is still an egg cell, not a baby.

egg cell + morning after pill = omelette (no harm done)

fetus/embryo + abortion = fried chicken (harm done)

Sorry if this equation appears to be callus, that wasn't the intention, just trying to make sense of the chicken/egg confusion.

Exactly. Thank you for saying it better than I did.







A chicken, on the other hand, is unlikely to become an omelette or fried chicken without human intervention,

LOL ... true. Although if my dogs had their way, they would be frying chicken and making omelettes with their own little paws everyday. ;)

[2kitties]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Duh, of course not Soledad! A fertilized chicken egg is a BABY! Good gosh. He he he...that is a perfect answer....I will have to incorporate that in my argument with the pro-lifers....

Okay, I had eggs yesterday and now I don't knoew if I had chicken, egg, yolk, fetus, baby or what! And then the whole analogy thing just got my post holiday drinking brain way out of whack!!! So confused.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Okay, I had eggs yesterday and now I don't knoew if I had chicken, egg, yolk, fetus, baby or what! And then the whole analogy thing just got my post holiday drinking brain way out of whack!!! So confused.


Me thinks you needed a little sausage...:p

[2kitties]

Me thinks if I will have a sausage, it will not be a little one.:p

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Me thinks if I will have a sausage, it will not be a little one.:p

*snort*

Watch out now, don't go there. We'll all get in trouble again for being naughty. :rolleyes:

[G.P.girl]

lol..you guys are too funny:D

[mahayana]

I read this thread with interest. This one is all-female, and I am folowing an all-male "Abortion is a Woman's Right. Period!" thread on another board.

Most of the debate about abortion over there can be divided by positions on "when life begins." There is actually a percentage that do take a fertilized egg to be "potential human life"; probably the same people who view stem cell research to be abortion (even though the waste products of fertility clinics have no chance to become babies).

Then there are those who say life starts with detectable brain function and heartbeat.

Then there are those who use 14 weeks as the cut-off, because this is what the "partial birth abortion" law that was just signed says. Do you all know that abortions after then are now illegal?

Most say the third trimester should be the cut-off for abortion, though preemies rarely live unless they are at least 8 mo when delivered.

Perhaps advances in technology will shift these lines; test-tube life support, implantation in animals, whatever. Anyway, the morning-after option prevents implantation, so is no different than IUDs, failed In-Vitro, or the fertilized eggs that don't implant for couples that are trying to get pregnant. No one accuses them of having abortions.

And now I'll shut up!!

[amoore]

After Mahayana made the last post, I started doubting that he got it right. Surely the 14 weeks meant before term and not 3 months, 2 weeks pregnant??? So I had him go back and check. The following is what he had read. The author is given credit, so I think this is OK to put this here.

Personally I have mixed feelings. I consider babies to be gifts from God and I also am a lifelong feminist (supporter of womens' rights). Anyway, judge for yourselves.

Quote:

OK women, it's time to wake up. With the signing into law of the ban on late term abortions, we are threatened for the first time in 30 years with the loss of our right to reproductive choice. I can hear many of you poo-pooing this idea - after all, the bill only says that late term abortions are illegal. Well, "late term" means anything after 14 weeks, according to the language of the law, but that isn't even the major problem, to my mind. The major problem is that we are regressing back to a time when women and their doctors were not allowed to make medical decisions simply because of someone else's morality. This law does not advance tolerance and humanity in this country - in fact, it does just the opposite. This law legalizes forced pregnancy.

Yes, that's right, I used the term forced pregnancy. What else can you call it when a woman - for whatever reason - does not decide until week 14 of her pregnancy that she needs to have that pregnancy terminated and the government steps in and says "Sorry, ma'am. You had that choice for 13 weeks, but now you have to haveto give birth to this baby." That is forced pregnancy.

And the worst part is the proverbial slippery slope. How long till someone gets the idea (as if they haven't already) that abortion at 12 weeks is immoral? What about 4 weeks? Some of us get erratic periods - we may not even know we're pregnant until this hypopthetical timeline has passed.

Supporters of the law say that it is never medically necessary to provide a woman with an abortion after the second trimester. Remember when your mother used to say "Never say never"? There was a good reson for that then, and there is a good reason to doubt it's truthfulness now. Besides the fact that health and even life threatening conditions can arise at any time during pregnancy, and some conditions effecting the viability of the fetus cannot even be diagnosed until major organs start to form which is, you guessed it - in the second trimester, there is always the possibility of unforseen circumstances. What if the mother is in a car accident, or shot? What if she is exposed to anthrax or another biological agent in her second trimester? You got it. The Bush administration says "Too bad. You cannot receive the medical procedure you need to survive." End of story.

Now, if you don't believe any modern U.S. administration would seriously consider taking away a woman's right to choose early term abortions, check out this link

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1105/p07s02-woaf.html

and you can read about how poor people in other countries are already suffering at the hands of these unfeeling patriarchs.

Wake up, women. Realize that the rights we take for granted can be taken away. We're not even fortunate enough to be on a slippery slope - we're dangling over the edge of a cliff, held up only by the slight margin of one Supreme Court Justice. Whether or not you believe abortion is moral, surely you must admit that giving away any right to control our own bodies is a mistake. If you oppose abortion, work to encourage the government to develop safe birth control. If you oppose birth control, work to change the hearts and minds of people having sex. But if you support the reelection of the most adamantly anti-abortion president in modern time, you will be supporting forced pregnancy, and it will be our daughter's who pay the price.

Faer Lee Balan

[2kitties]

This woman needs to wake up herself and realize that at some point a woman needs to step up and be a woman. It is insulting to MY feminism to believe I am unable to take responsiblity for my body and my choices within the first 14 weeks. I had 14 weeks for goodness' sake. Women, we are not so stupid we can't make a decision in 14 weeks. After that, I have no problem considering the rights of the other person sharing my body. That's right- sharing my body. I have rights to my body, but at 14 weeks, I am quite certain I'm sharing with with another human being.

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by 2kitties
This woman needs to wake up herself and realize that at some point a woman needs to step up and be a woman. It is insulting to MY feminism to believe I am unable to take responsiblity for my body and my choices within the first 14 weeks. I had 14 weeks for goodness' sake. Women, we are not so stupid we can't make a decision in 14 weeks. After that, I have no problem considering the rights of the other person sharing my body. That's right- sharing my body. I have rights to my body, but at 14 weeks, I am quite certain I'm sharing with with another human being.

Absolutely! If you are pregnant, it does NOT take fourteen weeks to figure it out. More like two or three weeks. And if you don't want to have a baby, that also shouldn't take fourteen weeks to figure out. More like twenty four hours, eh? Make the choice, take care of it, and do it quickly. Just MHO.

People who are screaming for the right to and legality of partial birth abortions are giving all pro-choice people a bad name, IMO. Kind of like PETA giving all animal organizations a bad name with their extreme views and tactics.

[babolaypo65]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
Absolutely! If you are pregnant, it does NOT take fourteen weeks to figure it out. More like two or three weeks. And if you don't want to have a baby, that also shouldn't take fourteen weeks to figure out. More like twenty four hours, eh? Make the choice, take care of it, and do it quickly. Just MHO.


I agree with you for the most part twister, cept the 2 or 3 weeks. some times it DOES take a bit longer, it can take up to four weeks for the hormones to change enough for you to miss a period... But yes, it doesn't take 14 weeks.

[micki76]

Originally posted by babolaypo65
I agree with you for the most part twister, cept the 2 or 3 weeks. some times it DOES take a bit longer, it can take up to four weeks for the hormones to change enough for you to miss a period... But yes, it doesn't take 14 weeks.

True, but if you have unprotected sex or condom failure you should certainly suspect there could be a pregnancy. Of course if using another form of BC, it would take longer to know that it failed.

[Soledad]

But, wait!!

The new legislation makes no allowances for women whose lives are endangered by the pregnancy. So, if you're past 14 weeks and you are faced with dying or aborting, you can kiss yourself goodbye!

Progress??

[babolaypo65]

Originally posted by micki76
True, but if you have unprotected sex or condom failure you should certainly suspect there could be a pregnancy. Of course if using another form of BC, it would take longer to know that it failed.
In theory yes. I have several friends who have kids now because of condom failures, and they sure never knew...
but in general, yeah, we agree in concept.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by Soledad
But, wait!!

The new legislation makes no allowances for women whose lives are endangered by the pregnancy. So, if you're past 14 weeks and you are faced with dying or aborting, you can kiss yourself goodbye!

Progress??

Soledad, you are right, there is arguement for that kind of allowance.

But I'd like to ask a question to all the moms out there. I am not a mother nor have I ever been pregnant, so this is purely an inquisitive question. If you are a pregnant woman carrying a child you want to have would you abort the child if you were in danger? Clearly, that is the sensible choice, but I'm just asking from the point of view of a mother protecting her child. Is it not true that the mother/child bond is that of life and death. Won't most any mother lay down her life to save her child? If that is the case, how does that fall into the arguement of abortions to save the life of the mother?

[Soledad]

I know two women who've had to make that choice. Thankfully, they chose their own lives. But I know it was a horrible decision for them.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by Soledad
I know two women who've had to make that choice. Thankfully, they chose their own lives. But I know it was a horrible decision for them.

I can't even imagine how hard it would be. I feel very fortunate I've never been in the postion to deal with any type of abortion decision. It must be heart wrenching.

[lbaker]

I've had a baby and I've had an abortion. Both decisions were the right ones for me and I regret neither. I would be damned if I would have allowed anyone else to make such a decision for me.

[amoore]

It would be a horrible choice, still if the mother dies so does the baby!

Maybe soon there will be a way to keep a non-viable tiny one alive and developing with some kind of life support, so cesareans before 8 months would not kill them. I'm sure there is research going on.

[babolaypo65]

Originally posted by lbaker
I've had a baby and I've had an abortion. Both decisions were the right ones for me and I regret neither. I would be damned if I would have allowed anyone else to make such a decision for me.

I am thankful every day that I've never had to make the choice you made. And equally thankful I can call it a choice.

(thanks for posting that:) )

[2kitties]

I still think American's need to open their eyes to sex education and birth control. Abstinence, while a good idea, is not the only choice and it's time teenage girls AND BOYS were made aware of birth control and safe sex options. There are plenty of schools who do not talk about sex, do not educate about sex. Parents are just not doing it. Plenty of parents simply tell their kids not to do it. Well, DUH!
If it were up to me, condoms would be available anywhere you want to get them no matter who you are.