Grammar, spelling and punctuation refreshers?? [Archive]

Randi

11-22-2003, 12:21 PM

I've had a look at that site, babolaypo65; it's very good! :) I know I'm not perfect with my punctuation, but I try my best. It can be rather confusing when the rules change - as they did in Denmark. It's now correct to use either grammatical commas or pause commas, but sometimes you get them mixed up. :rolleyes:

I think most people tend to use pause commas.

However, it's a pleasure to read a post written correctly. :) I suppose we can all learn a few things from those.

Cheshirekatt

11-22-2003, 12:31 PM

I know for sure that I abuse commas. :)

hehe

Then there's the old 'why does the apostrophe go?' question. Drives me crazy. People have been nice enough to try to help me out with this before but I'm still clueless. :rolleyes:

It's the whole possession thing.

Example:

That's Elvis's collar. Was that right? Elvises? Elvi? (My personal favorite!)

lolololol

Randi

11-22-2003, 12:48 PM

I think it's Elvis' collar. LOL!

mahayana

11-22-2003, 12:53 PM

English is a complicated language, filled with exceptions to spelling, endings of words, and general usage. Even pluralizing is a nightmare; you almost have to check the dictionary to see how to spell the same word as you apply it to different sentences.
You may have to double or drop the last letter, or change the spelling entirely.

Reading a lot teaches you to recognise a word that doesn't "look right." But correct grammar comes more from memorizing exceptions than following the rules!

Has anyone else ever read Ferlinghetti? He wrote without any Capitals or punctuation marks. Now that is getting written word to imitate spoken language, full of ambiguity and the potential for misunderstanding!

I love to edit, too. But worry that pointing it out will meet with defensiveness. No one is perfect, and "bad" grammar doesn't really bother me.

tatsxxx11

11-22-2003, 01:37 PM

Apostrophes 101 (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.html) Courtesy of: Purdue University Online Writing Lab (OWL).

Remembered I had this bookmarked! Everything you'd ever want to know about the apostrophe!

Twisterdog

11-22-2003, 03:54 PM

Although I'm sure I make plenty of mistakes, I am usually fairly good at grammar and punctuation. If anyone has a question, I'll try to help.

Poor grammar, punctuation and spelling is very irritating, to say the least. Most of the time, I won't even read a post on a message board that is loaded with errors, or not in paragraphs.

It is all I can do sometimes not to correct someone's spelling or grammar. I'm not talking about every little petty thing - but the big, glaring things that make my eyes water. I certainly hope someone corrects mine when I make mistakes. I don't find that offensive, I find it helpful. How can we learn if no one helps us?

The internet has been a very valuable tool in that many kids who might otherwise have had no interest in typing or writing do a lot of these days. And that's great; it is wonderful practice. But, if they are practicing incorrect grammar, spelling and punctuation, it is actually reinforcing bad habits instead of good.

I've always wondered how offended people would be if someone corrected their spelling on this message board? On other boards I post to, albeit ones with a more adult membership, people correct each other's errors, and everyone seems grateful.

Cheshirekatt

11-22-2003, 04:02 PM

I'd love having a little 'edit fairy' that came along and fixed all my goofs!

:)

And I agree....I won't read a post that is all in lower case letters, loaded with spelling errors or is an entire run on sentence.

Edwina's Secretary

11-22-2003, 04:24 PM

Here are three that "make my eyes water" as Twisterdog puts it!

The people that or the person that...should be who..."the people who"

"That's where it's at" no,no,no..."that's where it is!" I blame this one on advertising. The "at" is both unnecessary and incorrect.

Myself If you use it, chances are it is used incorrectly! Me is not a bad word and is often the correct word. "Get back to John or me" is correct. "Get back to John or myself" is not correct!

You would not (I hope) say "get back to myself" you would say "get back to me."

Usually, if used correctly the "myself" can be taken out of the sentence without loss of meaning as in "Please mother, I'd rather do it myself!" If you said, "Please mother, I'd rather do it!" meaning is not lost.

There, my eyes have cleared and I feel better!

mahayana

11-22-2003, 06:29 PM

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way (last three posts). I'm not at all irritated or angered by typos and the picky details of written English. Maybe a little distracted or confused.

Written language imitates speech, and speech is about conveying ideas, not getting an "A" in school.

Those with English as a second language are going to make errors in this way of expressing ideas. Likewise those with little formal education or not much experience at writing.

This does not mean you should condemn or ignore them. Please be a little tolerant and understanding of others.

Karen

11-22-2003, 08:27 PM

I always try to be patient with those for whom English is a second language. I learned early in life that school chums do not necessarily appreciate their grammar being corrected. I am, however, sometimes annoyed at people who do not seem to care about spelling, capitalization or punctuation. They exist for a reason!

I often spot errors in my own posts - I could use my Mom's old excuse - "I can spell just fine, but my keyboard can't!"

AvaJoy

11-22-2003, 11:14 PM

It seems that when an animal is chosen as pet/dog//cat of the day, the text is run exactly as submitted, which is sometimes unfortunate. I view all three every day and have noticed grammatical infractions (oh, well!), misspellings (it happens!), and worst of all, simple typos (duh!). It would be fantastic if the obvious typos could be corrected, for the sake of the website's integrity.

I can only presume that the policy is to run the text as submitted, verbatim, without any thought to maybe deleting the extra "the" out of a sentence that reads "the the"?

Like anyone else, I certainly would object to my text submission being edited/overhauled without my consent, but if I made a blatant boo-boo, I would welcome correction of such an error before it hits the "big screen"! I realize that the threads/forums are informal and anything goes . . . I'm referring ONLY to the P/D/C/OTD Bios., which leave an impression upon the first-time, casual viewer.

I'm just persnickety.

trayi52

11-23-2003, 10:59 AM

I agree with Mahayana, and I think when you skip some of these post that "make your eyes water", you are missing out on something interesting that is being said in the post.
I am sorry to hear there are people judging how we all use english.
When we post stories about our pets, whom we love very much, I really never thought we were being graded on our poor language skills.
I for one, like Mahayana hope you will be more tolerant, afterall you may be missing out on something very interesting by skipping over some of these posts. We have to remember, this is about our pets and people from all over post here too.

Edwina's Secretary

11-23-2003, 12:01 PM

The reason for rules of grammar, spelling, and puncuation is to establish a common understanding. Think how difficult it is for those for whom English is NOT the first language when mistakes are made. We all make them, I know! But to take a casual attitude toward it makes understanding ideas, thoughts, and feelings more difficult, especially for those for whom Engish is not a first language.

babolaypo65

11-23-2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Karen
I always try to be patient with those for whom English is a second language. I learned early in life that school chums do not necessarily appreciate their grammar being corrected. I am, however, sometimes annoyed at people who do not seem to care about spelling, capitalization or punctuation. They exist for a reason!

I often spot errors in my own posts - I could use my Mom's old excuse - "I can spell just fine, but my keyboard can't!"

Well put Karen.

Randi

11-23-2003, 03:01 PM

Well said, Sara!

In my opinion, it's a matter of making an effort! I know some have difficulties with spelling and grammar - I have too, sometimes; especially when I'm tired, but at least I make an effort to get it right (I don't always, I know!) I have the feeling that some just don't bother, and that's too bad!

I'm a non english member and I take the opportunity to try to learn more english from this site - I'm sure others do too.

When I want to post something, I sometimes can't think of the right words, so I use another way of saying what I want, but it comes out rather ackward, but understandable at least.

What I think is the worst, is when people post, using slang or abbrevations just to be "smart" and they don't get it right. So embarrassing!

Twisterdog

11-23-2003, 10:47 PM

I never said anything about ESL speakers/writers. I always look at the person's country of origin, and take into consideration where they are from. However, I have noticed that for the most part, ESL speakers/writers from other countries generally have MUCH better spelling and grammar than a LOT of people on here to whom English is their native tongue. That's truly sad to me.

And I'm not talking about one or two misspelled words and a few punctuation errors. We ALL do that. It IS the internet, a casual forum. I type things on a message board that I would never type in a "real" letter. I think it is safe to say that most of use more slang and more technically incorrect punctuation on the internet than we would, say, at work or school. That's a given, and I don't have a problem with it.

Everyone knows the type of posts I was talking about. We have all seen them, and all cringed. The posts that should be ten paragraphs and fifty sentences, but end up being one huge paragraph and four horrific run-on sentences. The posts where every other word is misspelled so badly that it takes an effort to figure out what was originally meant. The posts with no punctuation, and very few capital letters.

This does not mean you should comdemn or ignore them. Please be a little tolerant and understanding of others.

Please show me where I said I would condemn anyone. I didn't, and I don't. I am quite tolerant, I have never corrected anyone for anything on this board. I said I was tempted to at times, I didn't say I did it.

I do, however, think it is very sad when someone says they are going to school to be a "vetinarian" or they are going to start a rescue for "purebread blue healers." They lose all credibility with people ... especially potential employers, schools, etc. ... when they can't even spell their chosen field or specialty. If I were in that position, I would most certainly hope someone corrected me!

We ARE judged on our grammar, spelling and punctuation, just as we are judged by our clothing syle, pronunciation and appearance. Right or wrong, fair or unfair ... that is how human beings make order of their world. I can't imagine not knowing how to spell a word or punctuate a sentence, and not wanting someone to teach me!

mahayana

11-24-2003, 05:58 AM

Dear Twisterdog-

I think you see what I'm talking about. It hurts people's feelings when you point out their deficiencies. Even in a forum such as this.

If one get a note that says " I luv you. thank you for being my fren", and their response is "you are an atrocious speller; why would I want to associate with an ignorant person like you?", how would you characterize the two parties?

It's true that the world judges on appearance rather than essense. Bad first impressions are hard to overcome. And that is a sad situation, and one of the reasons for low self-esteem in many people.

The question here is how to help.

amoore

11-24-2003, 08:41 AM

I am sorry,for your troubles .:(
Some of us are less fortunate than you are .
Some of us have mental disabilitys that prevent us from
improving on our writing skills.
We can't meet your expectations .
I also feel sorry for you too.
For what we lack in our writing abilitys , you also lack in
compassion .

micki76

11-24-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by amoore
I am sorry,for your troubles .:(
Some of us are less fortunate than you are .
Some of us have mental disabilitys that prevent us from
improving on our writing skills.
We can't meet your expectations .
I also feel sorry for you too.
For what we lack in our writing abilitys , you also lack in
compassion .

Exactly. How horrible it must feel to have a learning disability or just otherwise not have the same level of education that others here on Pet Talk and to be judged or told that your post is not legible. I’ve seen that done so many times (usually to the same one or two people) that when I see the corrective, critical posts that I usually skip them because they irritate me so much. How awful to be judged by your cyber friends because you can't spell or punctuate correctly. Not everyone understands the correct form to use for a paragraph or the correct punctuation or spelling, myself included. Many people are too busy struggling to read and write though a disability that they don’t have the time or ability to learn beyond their current level. I generally run my posts through Word to attempt to correct typos, but my posts are by no means perfect.

If anyone were to ever correct a post of mine, I would be highly offended.

I personally think most members are trying their best. If their best is below your standards then don’t read their posts, but don’t get upset or irritated that they can’t spell or conjugate a verb.

Twisterdog

11-24-2003, 11:12 PM

If their best is below your standards then don’t read their posts,

That's exactly what I said I did ... I don't read the post. And I got criticised for saying that, as well.

told that your post is not legible. I’ve seen that done so many times (usually to the same one or two people) that when I see the corrective, critical posts that I usually skip them because they irritate me so much.

It hurts people's feelings when you point out their deficiencies.

And, repeating myself for about the third time, I have NEVER corrected, criticized or pointed out deficiencies to ANYone about ANY post, EVER. You are obviously confusing me with someone else if you think I go around being the spelling police of the board. I only mentioned it in THIS thread because it seems to be on topic here. Sheesh.

If anyone were to ever correct a post of mine, I would be highly offended.

Really? Why? I don't get it. To me, that's like being offended if someone tells you that you came out of the ladies' room with your skirt stuck into the back of your pantyhose. My goodness ... I'd rather have someone tell me than not! I wouldn't be offended, especially if someone PM'd me and said something like, "Pssst ... just FYI, it's "rottweiler", not "rotweiller". I would be grateful! Saves me from looking silly, or having to take the time to look it up myself.

I guess we just view this differently. However, I don't see what the big deal is. Certain things bother some people, and not other people. We all have different pet peeves. No one is a saint, at least not the last time I checked.

trayi52

11-25-2003, 02:03 AM

Just to lighten the mood a little bit. :)

1. Don't abbrev.

2. Check to see if you any words out.

3. Be carefully to use adjectives and adverbs correct.

4. About sentence fragments.

5. When dangling, don't use participles.

6. Don't use no double negatives.

7. Each pronoun agrees with their antecedent.

8. Just between You and i, case is important.

9. Join clauses good, like a conjunction should.

10. Don't use commas, that aren't necessary.

11. Its important to use apostrophe's right.

12. It's better not to unnecessarily split an infinitive.

13. Never leave a transitive verb just lay there without an object.

14. Only Proper Nouns should be capitalized.

15. a sentence should begin with a capital and end with a period

16. Use hyphens in compound-words, not just in any two-word phrase.

17. Watch out for irregular verbs which have creeped into our language.

18. Verbs has to agree with their subjects.

19. Avoid unnecessary redundancy.

20. A writer mustn't shift your point of view.

21. Don't write a run-on sentence you've got to punctuate it.

22. A preposition isn't a good thing to end a sentence with.

23. Avoid clichés like the plague.

Okay, I hope that clears up any misunderstandings about English.:) :D.
Oh, guess what I did, I posted this in the wrong forum. Now that is something to make your face turn red. :) :confused:

mahayana

11-25-2003, 08:13 AM

Glad to see a touch of humor here!

For those that are new to English, or who did poorly in English in school, each of Trayi's rules is written in a way to illustrate breaking the rule. Clever, eh?

Very apropos here, methinks.

I am sensitive to disparagement, whether done individually or globally. I grew up with a slightly retarded older brother who embarassed me all through school. The way I treated him is something I am ashamed of to this day.

babolaypo65

11-25-2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by mahayana
Glad to see a touch of humor here!

For those that are new to English, or who did poorly in English in school, each of Trayi's rules is written in a way to illustrate breaking the rule. Clever, eh?

Very apropos here, methinks.

I am sensitive to disparagement, whether done individually or globally. I grew up with a slightly retarded older brother who embarassed me all through school. The way I treated him is something I am ashamed of to this day.
Have you ever seen the made for tv film Tru Confessions?
http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0296251/
It's a beautiful film about twins. One was deprived of oxyqen during birth and is developmentally disabled. The other, now in high school struggles with her conflicting feelings about her brother.
It's a kids' movie, but so well made, I sobbed!

micki76

11-25-2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by Twisterdog
You are obviously confusing me with someone else if you think I go around being the spelling police of the board. I only mentioned it in THIS thread because it seems to be on topic here.

WOW! Did I ever say anything in my post was directed at you?? Sheesh right back at you.

Don't be so quick to ASSUME that I was referring to you Twister. I was referring to ANYONE who obviously feels they are the spelling/grammer police on this board. There are some and I've seen it done a lot recently. It was not however, done by you.

We all have different levels of education, just like in the real world. Would you all correct someone over and over in person?

2kitties

11-25-2003, 09:00 AM

I don't think this conversation has anything to do with Tonya's original question.

Kona & Oreo's mom

11-25-2003, 09:39 AM

I am a copy editor professionally, and I'd be happy to help anyone with specific questions. To answer the original question, this is an easy-to-use Web site: http://ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/

I find that the online version of the American Heritage Book of English Usage is helpful, too: http://www.bartleby.com/64/

Originally posted by Karen
Any specific questions, just ask me! I'm an editor/proofreader (as well as Art Director) at my "other" job. And if I ever am a gazillionaire, I will institute mandatory attendance, nationwide apostrophe seminars. . .
Karen, I know just how you feel. However, my mandatory seminar would be about intrusive commas. :)

CathyBogart

11-25-2003, 10:15 AM

Writing...Grammar, punctuation, and spelling has always come easily to me (Myself? j/k :P) but it's a hard thing for my brother to grasp. I'm pretty good at muddling through posts with less than spectacular grammar/spelling, especially if that person's native language is not English.

(I will not, however, expend any effort on a post that uses tons and tons of internet shorthand, all caps, or lots of l33t. ):D

trayi52

11-25-2003, 10:47 AM

WolfChan,
Now you see where I made my mistake. I am glad you read this.
I am still red faced.:D :cool:

mahayana

11-25-2003, 11:12 AM

Babolaypo- That is what happened to my brother as well. He was put in an oxygen tent after he was born and inadvertently deprived of oxygen for a few minutes. It caused brain damage that wasn't noticed until he was 5 years old, when he was unable to learn to write letters like the other children.

He has an IQ over 120, but still writes like a small child. He is 56.

babolaypo65

11-25-2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by mahayana
Babolaypo- That is what happened to my brother as well. He was put in an oxygen tent after he was born and inadvertently deprived of oxygen for a few minutes. It caused brain damage that wasn't noticed until he was 5 years old, when he was unable to learn to write letters like the other children.

He has an IQ over 120, but still writes like a small child. He is 56.

I've seen a few other situations like this, interestingly, during the 50s and the 60s the oxygen tent itsel caused some additional problems, sadly. A number of children who were placed in them developed severe hearing loss (apparently the tents were quite noisy inside) and vision impairments (too MUCH oxygen).

They seem to have figured that part out now, but anoxia at birth can be a pretty devastating thing.

PS to the others, sorry to hijack this thread!:D

babolaypo65

11-25-2003, 01:03 PM

[i]
Karen, I know just how you feel. However, my mandatory seminar would be about intrusive commas. :) [/B]

uh-oh. I'm toast. My dissertation advisor told me I used commas like Captain Kirk!

Prairie Purrs

11-25-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by babolaypo65
uh-oh. I'm toast. My dissertation advisor told me I used commas like Captain Kirk!

Oh, dear, I'm, laughing, too, hard! :D

Miss Meow

11-25-2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Kona & Oreo's mom
I am a copy editor professionally, and I'd be happy to help anyone with specific questions. To answer the original question, this is an easy-to-use Web site: http://ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/
...

Beautiful! Is it six months notice, or six months' notice? Three months pregnant, or three months' pregnant? I see both a lot and can't remember what's right!

Prairie Purrs

11-25-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Miss Meow
Beautiful! Is it six months notice, or six months' notice? Three months pregnant, or three months' pregnant? I see both a lot and can't remember what's right!

According to the Chicago Manual of Style, it's six months' notice (analogous to the examples there: an hour's delay, three days' time).

I think, though, that it would be three months pregnant. "Pregnant" is an adjective rather than a noun, so it's not quite the same structure as the other examples. But I admit I'm guessing on that one.

ChrisH

12-02-2003, 05:31 PM

A Quiz for you. :D

How`s your punctuation? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3256388.stm)

I am not revealing my score! :o

Miss Meow

12-02-2003, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by ChrisH
A Quiz for you. :D

How`s your punctuation? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3256388.stm)

I am not revealing my score! :o

I didn't understand at least three of the questions :o However, I jagged it and got nine!

wolflady

09-21-2004, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by tatsxxx11
Apostrophes 101 (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.html) Courtesy of: Purdue University Online Writing Lab (OWL).

Remembered I had this bookmarked! Everything you'd ever want to know about the apostrophe!

Go Purdue!! LOL LOL
I just had to chime in here, because Purdue is my alma mater! :cool:
:D

lizzielou742

09-21-2004, 07:17 PM

I took that quiz - I got 8 right, and the two I missed were counted wrong becuase I answered in the American style ;)

lizzielou742

09-21-2004, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
"That's where it's at" no,no,no..."that's where it is!" I blame this one on advertising. The "at" is both unnecessary and incorrect.

Blame that one on Ohio schoolteachers. I had NEVER in my life heard that it was wrong to end a sentence with a preposition until I attended college. I was a good English student too! I know I wrote high school English papers using sentences ending in prepositions, and no one ever corrected me. :o

I can't stand it when companies place ads with typos present! I just want to write a letter to the company and tell them to hire someone to proofread their stuff! To me, typos and misspellings are always so blantantly obvious. I don't know why, but they always seem to jump off the page. Maybe I should have been an editor or something!

I use passive voice all the time and don't even realize it, and it drives my boyfriend nuts. :p