I feel evil

[petlover]

I feel evil. I got mad at Hallie today and I slapped her on the face. I also called her stupid. She is not stupid. I can't believe that I slapped her. She won't even look at me now. I told her that I was sorry, but she didn't forgive me. I hope that you guys are not mad at me for showing mistreating to my sweet pet. This is a picture of Hallie. I feel so bad. I hope you guys aren't mad.:(

This is when she was shaved. Her hair has grown back now though. That was in the summer.


Are you guys mad?

[Karen]

Never ever do that again. Never. To her, or to any other dog.

I do not blame her for being wary of you. Hitting a dog (or a helpless child) does not solve anything, and often creates larger problems.

How could we not be upset?

Promise you will never do that again, and take her for a nice, long walk, or whatever her other favorite activity is, do that.

I am not mad at you, I have however lost respect for you.

[CamCamPup33]

I agree with karen.. Why would you do that? What do you think you would accomplish hitting her? did you think she was going to understand that you were mad because of the bad thing she did? She doesnt know.. Please dont hit your pet, it wont solve anything..

How could you hit that sweet face?

:(

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Right. I would be scared of you too, if I was her. Hitting is totally uncalled for, no matter what the case may be. Don't do it again.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Karen
Never ever do that again. Never. To her, or to any other dog.

I do not blame her for being wary of you. Hitting a dog (or a helpless child) does not solve anything, and often creates larger problems.

How could we not be upset?

Promise you will never do that again, and take her for a nice, long walk, or whatever her other favorite activity is, do that.

I am not mad at you, I have however lost respect for you.

I agree. You don't slap an innocent animal. They don't know any better. You aren't getting anything through them by hitting them. Its just uncalled for. :( Never do that again. Never ever ever.............to any animal. They don't understand. They don't deserve that!

[lv4dogs]

petlover, is there a reason you hit your dog? I do not mean to offend you or upset you but I reccomend not hitting your dog. Always try positive reinforcement training methods. Now I know sometimes your anger gets overwhelming, &/or you just may have been taught other methods but there are other options out there.

I am sorry for how others reacted w/o knowing any background info. They may be or may not be right.

what was the cause? How old & what breed is your dog? (I am guessing sheltie?.. shaved???, maybe even a touch of terrier mix??) If it is a sheltie why is it shaved??? Is he/she spayed/neutered? Have you been through any training or obedience?

Once I/we know more info we may be able to help you some more.

She sure looks like a sweat nice dog!

[Karen]

I can anser some questions of yours. She is a Sheltie, which we know from other posts of petlover's. Shelties are sometimes shaved in summer months just for comfort's sake, as they have a heavy double coat, suitable for the windy Shetland Islands, but not necessarily for a hot humid summer here!

[GoldenRetrLuver]

I thought it was bad to get Shelties shaved? I know for Collies it is, it totally ruins their coat and it grows back abnormaly.

[tatsxxx11]

It is not our forgiveness you should be asking, but Hallie's:(:(:( I look at that sweet face and start to cry. You obviously let your emotions over take what you know to be true...that there is no reason to physically assault an animal; EVER. What hurts me most is reading that you called her stupid:(:( It makes me think that what she did was something minor that annoyed you, not an act of aggressiveness. But the fact that you came here to discuss what you did, takes courage and makes me think that you know what you did was very wrong, that you are seeking our help and you want to try and correct that wrong. You must be feeling sick inside and I feel badly for you:( I know I would be. Dogs have an incomprehensible capacity to forgive us humans. My advice to you would be to ask her forgiveness. Speak to her lovingly and pet her gently. Take her for a walk, sit next to her quietly, look into her eyes and tell her you love her. Most of all, promise her you will never, ever do that again; and mean it. If you feel yourself getting upset, walk away and return when you are calmer. I have no doubt that with time she will forgive you. If you believe she has behavioral issues that need to be addressed, seek out those sources that can help you correct those behaviors in an appropriate way, such as obedience training. But never, ever, forget that this is a living, sentient being that has feelings; deep, deep feelings. They look to us for love and support and companionship and understanding. Your Hallie is a beautiful girl and you are blessed and privileged to have her in your life. I hope she and you will heal and that you can begin anew with a commitment to be her most devoted, loyal and loving best friend. Our canine companions deserve nothing less. My heart aches for you because I know how badly you must be feeling.

[wolfsoul]

I'm sure she'll forgive you with time. The guilt will be bad enough that you won't make this mistake again. Sometimes it's hard when you get mad. The next time you get mad, just hit a pillow and release some of that anger. If she does something wrong, give her a time out, but don't ever get physical. I know that I can get mad at Timber sometimes, because she can be a hassle, but I try to focus my anger on something else.

We all make mistakes. This isn't something you thought about; you reacted in anger with action before you had time to think it through and regretted it immediatly after. Take Hallie for a walk and let her know that she is a good girl and that you are still a good parent that was just having a bad day, and that you didn't mean any abuse.

PS When you shave her, make sure to leave her undercoat. It looks like you shaved too much off of her. Her undercoat keeps the heat out and protects her from heat stroke. If you take it off, she'll get too hot.

............I'd hate to accuse an innocent person of mischief, but I don't understand why someone would want any consoling on such a matter on a site where you are inevitably bound to get a negative reaction...the last question just sounded odd to me.................. :confused: :o

[KYS]

None of us our perfect, and we all make mistakes.
Hopefully we learn from our mistakes and never
do it again.


You are still a child, but as an adult
I slapped my 12-14 week old Sheba on
the face after she got excited and nipped my (chest)
It hurt like heck, and I instantly (not thinking slapped her)
I did not realize what I did. I remember looking at her sweet face
as she winced. I felt so bad and guilty I never
ever slapped her again. (She never nipped me again either.)

Petlover, Hallie will learn to trust you and also will forgive you,
but it is important that you remember never take
out your frustrations out on her or any animal again.

[Samantha Puppy]

wolfsoul, I'm with you... I was thinking the same thing about that last question and some other ones posed earlier as well...

Take this feeling of guilt and never forget it. This will keep you from ever doing that again. Also remember that animals really don't know any better and smacking them won't help a thing - it'll just make them fearful of you, and then you won't have a good relationship with them. Think of the wince that Hallie does now. Resolve never to make her do that again. When you get frustrated, take your anger out on something else - a pillow, a punching bag, a wall - anything but your pet. If you can't take your anger out on something else, remove yourself from the situation. Take a walk, leave the room, call a friend on the phone, just remove yourself from the situation.

And never, ever do it again. Ever.

[tatsxxx11]

And petlover, please don't leave Pet Talk. You were right in coming here. As I said before, it took courage to come here and admit something you probably knew would raise the ire of lots of people. But you came here for help and advice. As has been said, your own feelings of saddness, guilt and deep regret are punnishement enough. I dare say there isn't a one of us who hasn't been overtaken by our anger at some time in our lives, in some way we regret. I know you love your doggies. I'm sure by tomorrow all will be forgiven.

[Amber]

Im with Wolfsoul too, We all make mistakes. Im sure you didnt mean it but didnt think through it enough. Next time just take a deep breath.

[Aspen and Misty]

When Nova does something bad and she knows she did something bad, you take one step towards her and her eyes close and she ducks a little.


Watching that makes me wonder what her past was like :( I'm sure she wasn't abused cause I can do almost anything to her and she don't care, but I do, however, beleave that hitting was a punishment to her. Now, all I do is correct her and use postive renforcemnt and WOW it works wonders!


Now with Breeze, she's a little slow ;) but she is just 5 months :p when she does something bad, if you don't give her a punishment, she doesn't think it was bad, I can say no and clap my hands as much as I want and she will wag her tail and ask me to play :rolleyes: so, what I do, is say "Breeze No" and grab her coller (gently!) and lead her outside, because being alone is the WORST possible punishment you could EVER do to her. It's like a time-out. I works great for us. 5 mins later, I let her back in and she is good.


These methods have worked for us.

Ash

[carole]

I hope you will listen to the great advice all the others have given you, its obvious you lost your temper and that is the worrying thing, you have to try and learn to control it, because next time it might be your child who has its face slapped, now I am not minimising the fact you hit your pet, by no means, I am just saying this could be the stepping stone to becoming more violent as your life goes on.

So take the good advice, take some anger management courses maybe, and remember your darling dog will forgive you, as she will love you unconditonally.

You did the right thing coming here, naturally as pet lovers, we were upset to hear you did this to Hallie, and no doubt you have the worst guilt ever, just move on from here, learn from your mistakes, and say to yourself YOU WILL NEVER EVER DO OR SAY THAT AGAIN.

[dukedogsmom]

Having lived with a violent man, I can tell you that Duke has never forgotten how he was treated. It's been almost 10 years. If you feel you have trouble controling your anger, there are courses out there you can take to learn how to manage it. Please don't ever hit anything or anyone again.

[stacwase]

Sometimes our emotions are hard to control, and we don't learn our lessons until it's too late!

When I married my husband, he had custody of his 4 daughters. 3 of them are grown and out of the house now. The 16-year old is still here. Twice, I slapped one of them. Often, I was emotionally abusive.

Then - I watched this commercial. It's so funny how a commercial changed my entire life. It was about how violence breeds violence and abusing somebody once can have ripple effects for years and years. It applied more to humans - about how children who are abused grow up to abuse their own children.

After that, whenever I'd even think of hitting somebody I'd get really weak. I couldn't ever do it again after that. I kept thinking "what I do could cause infinite harm!"

But - my change came late. It affected my relationship with that stepdaughter permanently. She might forgive, but she'll never forget.

I don't know if you have an anger problem or if this was just a one-time deal. But if you do have a problem with anger you need to tell yourself "I will break the cycle! I will not continue this!" You need to think about all the harm that abuse can do. Your dog might become fearful of people and bite somebody. That could cause the person bitten to dislike dogs and abuse them - then the dogs the person abuses could bite and the cycle would continue!

I hope it was just a one time deal. You're not a bad person - remember that. But the things you do can have lasting effects on people and animals you might never even meet.

[petlover]

Hi guys. I just got back from taking Hallie to " The Soda Fountain" to get some icecream. It was funny. Hallie got ice cream all over her nose and was desperately trying to stretch her tongue out far enough to reach it. I took her to the park after that and we talked the whole time. When I got home and set down to the computer, she came and jumped up on my lap, licking me constantly on the face with vannilla icecream breath. She forgave me. She is 4 years old and that is the first time that I have ever hit a dog. PERIOD!!! The reason why I did is that she bit a person that came to our house to get some ducks. I guess I was just scared that the person was going to be upset and have Hallie taken from us, so I did the first thing that came to mind. But, I knew that mine and Hallie's friendship would never end, for she is my best and only BEST friend. The other dogs are my friend, but me and Hallie are always together. She goes everywhere with me. Like the people in town say:

Their frienship will continue, from life til death, at the end... They shall meet again.

Someone once said that ands it spread. I like it. It tells the truth too.

Anyhow, I am not going to leave Pet Talk. I like it too much. And I like the people here. They are just so understanding.
I read all of the replies, I am dissapointed that so mant have lost trust in me, but I am thankful that so many understand. For you that understood. Thank you for the understanding and giving me advice. I am just so happy that at least SOME people understood the bad doing of my behavior. Because I even know that EVERYONE does bad doing and gets mad at their pets sometimes. I unlike some others, come forth and admit my wrong doing to others that understand. Thank you for understanding.

[Kfamr]

The first thing you think of when your dog bites someone is to hit it? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[cali]

believe me I am in no way mad, everyone makes mistakes I have made that mistake as well what I was younger, and I just about got run off a board for it, only one person got me to come back because she was understanding and knew that everyone makes mistakes.:)

[petlover]

That's not what I meant. What I meant was, that man was freaking out and was about to pick up the phone, and he was yelling and somehow managed to say " That dog has no obediance, I bet that, that dog has never had.etc Anyhow, my dad was running outside, and the way he was raised our dogs get punnished. It is not hitting. But when one of his dogs bit someone, he would hit it one the butt a couple of times and then tie it up outside. But, our dogs have never bit anyone. So, I guess what I was saying was that I was scared. I was scared because my dad has only owned large dogs and he might have hurt Hallie. Usually when our dogs do bad I pick them up and run for my room before my dad can see what they did so that I can just put them in time out. So I guess I just figured that if I hit her and took her to my room, my dad wouldn't touch her. I wouldn't have let him anyways. That is just not what I meant. I didn't have time to stop and go " Hmmmm, I wonder what I should do?" If I would have had that much time, this would not have happened.

[Aspen and Misty]

Originally posted by petlover
The reason why I did is that she bit a person that came to our house to get some ducks. I guess I was just scared that the person was going to be upset and have Hallie taken from us, so I did the first thing that came to mind.

Acctually, from going through agressive classes with Chewy (RB)
is the WORST thing you can do is hit the dog for biteing someone. If YOU can do the behvior, why can't the dog?? (I never hit him, never ever, but it's just something we went over) Next time, take her by the coller, and say NO in a loud shapr disapointed voice. It works well. Also, if you know that she is agrerssive with this person, remove her form the house or if you see ANY hesitation from her, or fear, remove her from the situation imediatly.

Good luck to the both of you.


Ashley

[Aspen and Misty]

Originally posted by petlover
But when one of his dogs bit someone, he would hit it one the butt a couple of times and then tie it up outside. But, our dogs have never bit anyone.

Tell your dad to NEVER EVER EVER do this! It only causes the agression to get worse!!! Your dad needs to take some type of classes, where he learns about agression behavior in dogs before he goes and treats it. He is only going to make the dog worse :mad:


Ash

[petlover]

I can understand what both of you are saying. I have watched and learned that hitting is not a good punnishment, I am so stupid! ( Bangs head on desk) I really don't know why I did that. ( Bangs head on desk again) Also, I talked to my dad about it once before. He agreed to stop. I talked to him again tonight. He said that he was not going to hit her. He was just going to see what was going on! ( Bangs head on desk once more) Anyhow, I hope that everything goes great with everyone's dogs and pets. And from my PERSONAL experience. PLEASE never hit your dog. Whatever the reason, just please don't.

[tikeyas_mom]

o wow I cant believe you hit your dog in the face :(:( *tear*

[rachnjam27]

Oh, the drama...:rolleyes:

[luckies4me]

You all are saying you have NEVER smacked your dog, not even on the butt or tapped them on the nose? I have never slapped an animal in the face, but I have "tapped" Morgan on the nose. This doesn't hurt, it's just tapping but it gets her attention. When Ewok attacks me the only way to get him off is to smack him on the butt, or somehow try to scruff him at the neck and remove him from my leg. Yes he attacks for no reason. Just recently I was walking to the kitchen when he jumped up and left a puncture wound on my finger. He's come a long way but I need to defend myself from my cat and I will. As much as I love him he has problems in which we are dealing with the best to our ability. I don't think beating a dog, slapping in the face etc are exceptable. There are other ways to train a dog and positive reinforcement goes a long way and works wonders.

With my rats that are times I need to flick them on the nose. Having a lot of buck's I sometimes have males trying too hard to become the dominant male. Sometimes this results in very bloody fights in which case the only way I can stop it is to flick the one doing the attacking on the nose and somehow get him to stop long enough for me to place my hands between them. You cannot just stick your hands in there and reach in and take them out, or you will be hurting. They will bite when trying to seperate and they bite HARD!

And to bring up how people discipline their children is a different subject. I don't think spanking a child on the butt is going to cause severe mental distress........:rolleyes:

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by luckies4me
You all are saying you have NEVER smacked your dog, not even on the butt or tapped them on the nose? I have never slapped an animal in the face, but I have "tapped" Morgan on the nose. This doesn't hurt, it's just tapping but it gets her attention. When Ewok attacks me the only way to get him off is to smack him on the butt, or somehow try to scruff him at the neck and remove him from my leg. Yes he attacks for no reason. Just recently I was walking to the kitchen when he jumped up and left a puncture wound on my finger. He's come a long way but I need to defend myself from my cat and I will. As much as I love him he has problems in which we are dealing with the best to our ability. I don't think beating a dog, slapping in the face etc are exceptable. There are other ways to train a dog and positive reinforcement goes a long way and works wonders.

With my rats that are times I need to flick them on the nose. Having a lot of buck's I sometimes have males trying too hard to become the dominant male. Sometimes this results in very bloody fights in which case the only way I can stop it is to flick the one doing the attacking on the nose and somehow get him to stop long enough for me to place my hands between them. You cannot just stick your hands in there and reach in and take them out, or you will be hurting. They will bite when trying to seperate and they bite HARD!

And to bring up how people discipline their children is a different subject. I don't think spanking a child on the butt is going to cause severe mental distress........:rolleyes:

I have been spanked and i dont think it is bad, I dont think smaking a dog on the but is bad, BUt I am totally against hitting a dog or any animal is the face, it makes them affraid of you.. :(:(that is what gets to me..

[rachnjam27]

Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
I have been spanked and i dont think it is bad, I dont think smaking a dog on the but is bad, BUt I am totally against hitting a dog or any animal is the face, it makes them affraid of you.. :(:(that is what gets to me..


Not necessarily...

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
I have been spanked and i dont think it is bad, I dont think smaking a dog on the but is bad, BUt I am totally against hitting a dog or any animal is the face, it makes them affraid of you.. :(:(that is what gets to me..


Yes and I totally agree! But it just seems that a lot of people say things that aren't the truth. I have known many people that come across as perfect pet owners online and the moment I meet them the first thing out of their mouth is "You stupid Dog", or they immdediatley smack them so hard the dog yelps in pain. If the dog makes noise it's obviously hurting....

[tikeyas_mom]

yes it does.. I know for a fact that if I got hit in the face every time I was in trouble, I would flinch when somone went near my head.. I know that the same thing goes for a dog.. if you hit a dog in the face it will eventually turn on you if it is done allt he time.. if a dog has been hit in the face alot and then a child comes up to it to pet it on the head, it will be affraid and might lash out.. give me one tiny bit of proff that makes sence as to why a dog wouldent be affraid after being hit in the face!!!

[wolfsoul]

I don't think a tap on the nose goes far at all. :) A slap would. But a light tap...

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by luckies4me
Yes and I totally agree! But it just seems that a lot of people say things that aren't the truth. I have known many people that come across as perfect pet owners online and the moment I meet them the first thing out of their mouth is "You stupid Dog", or they immdediatley smack them so hard the dog yelps in pain. If the dog makes noise it's obviously hurting....

I know!! you shouldent like beat an animal, just give it a ferm tap on the butt when it has done somthing bad, then show it what is the right thing to do, and reward it... At least that is my method of training, but who knows maybe hitting a dog in the face when it is mad works for some ppl :rolleyes: ..

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
yes it does.. I know for a fact that if I got hit in the face every time I was in trouble, I would flinch when somone went near my head.. I know that the same thing goes for a dog.. if you hit a dog in the face it will eventually turn on you if it is done allt he time.. if a dog has been hit in the face alot and then a child comes up to it to pet it on the head, it will be affraid and might lash out.. give me one tiny bit of proff that makes sence as to why a dog wouldent be affraid after being hit in the face!!!


Who exactly are you replying to?:confused:

Of course the dog is going to flinch, he thinks he's going to be hit.

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
I don't think a tap on the nose goes far at all. :) A slap would. But a light tap... I think tapping and hitting are totally different things, tapping doesnt hurt it is just a warning and dogs dont like it..

I would just like to add an example...

Right now my great dane Baby is going through a nipping stage where she will give a small bite when she is licking you or when you try to pet her head. We tapp her on the nose and fermly say "NO BITE BABY" when she does that..

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by luckies4me
Who exactly are you replying to?:confused:

Of course the dog is going to flinch, he thinks he's going to be hit.

rachnjam27

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
I think tapping and hitting are totally different things, tapping doesnt hurt it is just a warning and dogs dont like it..

I agree. I tap Molly on the nose, whenever she starts to act up. She hates it, but it doesn't hurt her, not like a hit in the face.

[rachnjam27]

I'm basing my statements on common sense. Dogs are much more intelligent than you people seem to think. They know when they are being punished, they are aware that they have done something wrong.

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
I agree. I tap Molly on the nose, whenever she starts to act up. She hates it, but it doesn't hurt her, not like a hit in the face.

Exactly! I think people may have jumped to the conclusion and make it seem like she beats her dog. Everyone makes mistakes, we hopefully learn from them and move on.

I could never have ever hit Morgan, ever. But yes I did tapp her on the nose, and she listened when I did that. Forunately she was a VERY good, sweet natured dog who came already trained (besides her running outside in the street) and knew almost all of her commands and caught on quickly and knew what was right and what was wrong.

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
I agree. I tap Molly on the nose, whenever she starts to act up. She hates it, but it doesn't hurt her, not like a hit in the face.
Yeah, Timber's gotten a few taps on the nose when I catch her with something in her mouth that isn't supposed to be. One time, I literally sat there for like ten minutes trying to pry a bucket out of Timber's mouth. A tap fixed it all. But even a tap on the nose won't make her let go of Pedro's tennis balls. He has to wait an entire day to get them back. :(

[binka_nugget]

I thought it was bad to get Shelties shaved? I know for Collies it is, it totally ruins their coat and it grows back abnormaly.

I think someone mentioned this..the undercoat protects from the cold and the heat. I would never completely shave my shelties unless the matts on them were that bad (but that'll never happen..with all the grooming I keep up with). ANYWAYS...


Promise to never do it again. I've done it once to kai before. I didn't hit him on the face but I got really mad and got really upset at him. Kai still has his moments but I now know to keep it all bottled up inside me until he's not around and punch a pillow or something. Pets don't understand why we hit, scream or do the things we do sometimes. The next time sometime like this happens, take a deep breath in and think about it calmly. Think, will I regret this later? That ALWAYS stops me from doing something stupid.

[Kfamr]

I was told once that tapping on the nose could damage their senses in their nose.

I prefer to tap them on the butt.

[tikeyas_mom]

rachnjam27,
I dont think you understand somthing called "animal abuse".. If you hit a dog in the face they will react in a bad way over time, it is simple psychology, negitive reinforce ment isnt the way to go when dealing with pets.. ...

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by Kfamr
I was told once that tapping on the nose could damage their senses in their nose.

I prefer to tap them on the butt.

what if you have a thick coated dog breed?? tapping on the but doesnt do anything.. even with my great dane she doesnt notice she is too buisy thinking about everyhting eles.

Tapping hard ont he nose all the time might be a bad thing, but a light tap, meh it isnt bad..

[Kfamr]

That's when you use your voice. Really, I never need to tap Nala. Just say "NO" .... No can be a very strong word for dogs.. Atleast it is for mine.

Besides, your Great Dane is still a puppy and will be "thinking of everything" for a while. Puppies are very curious. :)

[binka_nugget]

Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
what if you have a thick coated dog breed?? tapping on the but doesnt do anything.. even with my great dane she doesnt notice she is too buisy thinking about everyhting eles.

Tapping hard ont he nose all the time might be a bad thing, but a light tap, meh it isnt bad..

I try not to tap them but I find myself doing it once in a while. When kai was a pup and nipped people, I'd give a small tap. But now, I just give about 10 seconds of stern eye contact. It never fails ;)

[rachnjam27]

Yes, I do happen to understand the meaning of animal abuse.
I never said that slapping a dog in the face is right. I do feel that slapping in the rear is a much more effective way of punishment than 'positive reinforcement'. Believe it or not, dogs aren't as innocent and helpless as you seem to think.

Gee Rex, you scratched up that girl's face. Bad dog, here's a dog treat.

I can see how that will help the dog learn.

[tikeyas_mom]

well I must have miss understood you because I thought you agreed with hitting a dog in the face..

[Kfamr]

I don't think anyone meant positive reinforcement when the dog has done something bad.

but when they do something good, you MUST reinforce that with something positive.. Just like a parent would when a child gets good grade or something...

[rachnjam27]

Well, yes, I do agree.

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by Kfamr
That's when you use your voice. Really, I never need to tap Nala. Just say "NO" .... No can be a very strong word for dogs.. Atleast it is for mine.

Besides, your Great Dane is still a puppy and will be "thinking of everything" for a while. Puppies are very curious. :)

lol yeah I think she will grow out of that fais ;). Great danes love to please their owners BUT if not properly trained will have the run of the house..

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by rachnjam27

I never said that slapping a dog in the face is right. I do feel that slapping in the rear is a much more effective way of punishment than 'positive reinforcement'. Believe it or not, dogs aren't as innocent and helpless as you seem to think.

I don't think slapping on the behind is as effective on the majority of dogs. I slap Timber when I play with her. All over her body, including her rear. She doesn't react, but she plays back. I'll lightly slap the sides of her nose, and she just play attacks me. But if I ever, even lightly, tap the top of her nose while I play, she'll freeze and look dumbfounded, like "Wha? Meh? Huh?"

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by rachnjam27
Well, yes, I do agree.

You agree with what?

P.S... Where did you come from? Are you new here or is this just another name? It's odd for a newbie to just jump in here.. :p

[Kfamr]

Tapping on the butt, saying their name, or saying "NO" always works for Simba and Nala.

Nala not as much, since she's still a puppy -- but she's getting there. :)

[tikeyas_mom]

humm.. yeah If I were new I would probably have jumped into the posts about pics or whatever, it is odd to see a newbie debating..

[rachnjam27]

I was agreeing with your statement about rewarding dogs that do good things.
Yes, I'm new here.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Molly only gets a tap on the nose when a "NO" doesn't work. She's easy going, but when she doesn't want to listen, that's when I do it, and it works; everytime. I hate doing it, but she has to learn she can't get away with certain things.

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by rachnjam27
I was agreeing with your statement about rewarding dogs that do good things.
Yes, I'm new here.

Well, why don't you post a thread telling us aobut your pets and yourself. I'd love to here aobut them. :)

[tikeyas_mom]

Originally posted by Kfamr
Well, why don't you post a thread telling us aobut your pets and yourself. I'd love to here aobut them. :)

DITTTO!!!! ;)

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by rachnjam27
I was agreeing with your statement about rewarding dogs that do good things.
Yes, I'm new here.

Actually you are new to posting, not new to the forum. ;) :p

[Shelteez2]

I don't know anyone who hasn't lashed out in anger before. It may have not been a physical lashing out it could have been a verbal lashing, or heck it could have even been mentally. The point is that sometimes our emotions cloud our reasoning. This becomes a problem when you don't realize the impact you might have. I believe the original poster has stated his/her remorse over what has happened. Recognizing that they acted inappropriately is a step towards changing that reaction in the future.

The discussion has now moved onto the "merits" of "tapping" your dog instead of hitting. Well one person's tap is another person's hit.
Hitting a dog in the face can make it head shy. It may or may not cause a dog to "turn" on it's owner. A dog too may flinch from getting hit or tapped on the butt. It depends on the dog. I do not raise my hands to my dogs. Not to say I never have. I spanked
Emily once and I've never forgiven myself. I doubt she remembers it, but I always will. I do raise my voice though and this works for my dogs, and others I've trained.

Also there was a comment on negative reinforcement isn't the way to go when dealing with pets.
Negative reinforcers are something that the dog wants to avoid and thus, decrease the likelihood of repeating a behavior.
These can be things such as withholding a reward, ignoring a dog, and verbal objection. They most definitely do have their place in dog training.

I'm sick of seeing bad advice given out by well meaning people. I don't care how many books someone has read, how many links they have looked over. Nothing can equal the experience gained by working with a lot of dogs.

[rachnjam27]

I applaud you for your response.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by Shelteez2
I'm sick of seeing bad advice given out by well meaning people. I don't care how many books someone has read, how many links they have looked over. Nothing can equal the experience gained by working with a lot of dogs.

What bad advice has been given?? We were all just stating our opinions on the subject. :confused:

[petlover]

You guys are all going to hasty conclusions. Now since I have read some more posts it sounds like I went from slapping my dog on the head to beating my dog. Yall make it sound like I am totally abusing Hallie, which I would never do. I didn't hit her very hard and it wasn't exactly on the face like I made it sound. It was just near the top of her head. It's not good to hit a dog, I know. I also know that you should reward a dog when it does good. It just sounds like yall are going to Hast Conclusions. It's gone and over with. I learned my lesson. It will never happen again. Trust me.
By the way, I am not trying to be rude. I don't even know if this is what you meant, but binka_nugget, it kind of sounded like you were saying that we shaved our Hallie because she had mats in her hair. Well, I groom her everyday, twice a day. She has almost never had a little knot in her life. That goes for all of our longhaired dogs. Oh, and Hallie is the first sheltie that I have ever had so I didn't know that you were not supposed to shave that far.

[rachnjam27]

Actually, I felt that it was wrong of them to put you down like that, when in reality you did not do anything 'wrong'.

[Karen]

Please, let's not continue this discussion in this thread. Poor petlover feels bad enough, we do not need to debate training methods in her thread.

Start a new thread if you want to, okay?

Jan (petlover) I am glad you had the nice walk, and ice cream silliness, and am just as glad that you seem to have learned, and promise never to do that agin. It's even better that Hallie has forgiven you, but still be careful about raising your hand quickly around her, or yelling around her, for a few days, okay?

Trust and respect can be earned. I am sorry you have had bad examples in your life. But you are young, and can learn! Keep in mind that Shelties are bred to herd sheep, and often will nip at sheep to keep them going the way they want them to. Have you ever done agility training with her? She might really enjoy that, as might you, and it'll help strengthen communication and trust between you two. Give it a thought, anyway.

[binka_nugget]

Originally posted by petlover
By the way, I am not trying to be rude. I don't even know if this is what you meant, but binka_nugget, it kind of sounded like you were saying that we shaved our Hallie because she had mats in her hair. Well, I groom her everyday, twice a day. She has almost never had a little knot in her life. That goes for all of our longhaired dogs. Oh, and Hallie is the first sheltie that I have ever had so I didn't know that you were not supposed to shave that far.

Oh no, I didn't direct that at you. I quoted Goldenretrluver's comment and just added onto it.

[petlover]

I am sooo sorry binka_nugget I didn't mean to make you upset. I am really sorry. I hope I didn't offend you.

[Twisterdog]

I'm sick of seeing bad advice given out by well meaning people. I don't care how many books someone has read, how many links they have looked over. Nothing can equal the experience gained by working with a lot of dogs.

I so agree with this!

[petlover]

Hi Karen. Thank you for helping me out with this situation. I have hearded sheep with Hallie. We have a hearding day every Saturday. It is a lot of fun. It is a full day of hearding sheep with other collies and shelties. We are with the LuvMyCollie club. We do lots of fun things. Also, the club does agility every Wednesday. Hallie seems to really enjoy that too. Thank you again for understanding. And helping me out. I couldn't thank you enough. Also, when I raise my hand Hallie doesn't really mind. I think it is because I have signals that I use with her with my hands. I am teaching her commands in sign language. I also use signals with sheep herding. Sheep herding is pretty important to her because she gets to do it everyday. We have a lamb that I raise for show and she gets to run it. She just loves it!


Thanks again!

[Kfamr]

i'm curious... Which advice in here would you consider "bad"?

[rachnjam27]

I have an idea, but I won't bother to post it.
Hey Kfamr, I posted my intro in General.

[cali]

I dont know what is it with you people and jumping to concusions honestly if anyone here says that they have never ever lashed out on there dog at least once in their lives they are lying. plain and simple. things happen, sometimes you have to do what you have to do, I do have to hite misty, why? because NOTHING else is effective, she could not care less how many times or how loud I yelled NO, she doesent care if I ignore her, she has no response to a tap on the nose or a slap on the but, so she gets a slap on her shoulder, however she is he ONLY dog I have that gets that sort of punishment, and only because she is very tuff and strong willed so much that she barly even responds to the slap, no I dont slap her in the face but EVERYONE makes mistakes. I got run off a board once because I lashed out on misty, they expected me to be able to think in a panic and even said I should not even have pets if I am going to lash out like that, what she did is while I was finishing up my lunch before heading back to school misty came out of nowhere flew into my lunch sending the boiling hot tomato sauce all over my face, lets see I have sauce scalding my face and I am supposed to think about what I am doing? :mad: like I said EVERYONE makes mistakes, and anyone who can say they have never once ever lashed out on there pets in anyway is lying through their teeth. have I kicked my dogs? yes I have perky, WHY because she is a jack russle terrier, and when a jack gets into a full out fight you cannot just stick you hands in there and pick her up, that is unless you want to end up in the hospital with gashes all over you. you have to get in there and break uo the fight with you feet, which means kicking them apart, and anyone with a true tuff jack russle that has gotten into a fight will know that, when misty gets into a fight all you need to do is pick her up by the scruff and crate her(so she cant get to the dog she was attacking) but things happen, and no one shoul be condeming her for what she did.

[Dawn]

and grab her coller (gently!) and lead her outside, because being alone is the WORST possible punishment you could EVER do to her. It's like a time-out. I works great for us. 5 mins later, I let her back in and she is good.

This is a training method Tyr's trainer suggested when he would "play" way too rough-jumping up and grabbing me with his mouth and sometimes really hurting me.
He suggested I say"no" "bad"and walk out of the room, and leave him a lone for a while and come back 5 or so minutes later and do it every time-most dogs hate to be left alone-and when they find certain things they do will make you go away-they will stop doing it.
It worked with Tyr-it's the only thing that worked!
But hitting-major No-no-just makes the situation worse. I would get angry and push him away-not hard-not enough to hurt him - but he would get more excited and come back harder, thinking I was playing with him.
Hitting confuses the dog-so try to avoid doing it again. I know sometimes you reaact to a situation out of anger-but you have to think-if this was your child-would you reaact like that-and in a way aren't they our "children" so to speak?

[cali]

dawn for that method ypu have to keep in mind both the dog and where the person lives, for example I cant just isolate my dogs outside because its -40*C thats is flippen cold way to cold to be tossing the dog out and leaving them, my friend american eskimo has to come inside in the winters because its too cold for his super thick coat. you also have to keep in mind the dog, for example, I cannot isolate misty say in the bathroom, because she will quite litterally break down the door(she has done it) you also must keep in mind the house layout, for example I have a very wide open layout in the house, its a complete ring with no doors If I leave her she will follow nothing I can do about that, I put her in her crate for time out however she loves her crate so that is not punnishment either, it is a great methode it just relies on the assumption that everyone have lots of doors, nice wheather, and a calm dog. ;)

[Linda York]

There has been ALOT of great advice given here. I think that petlover feft bad for what she did, vowed to never do it again, AND she has apologized.
All of our opinions have made a point. It sounds like petlover acted out of anger and fear. And relalized that she was wrong. I was always taught not to hit a dog with my hands. Because they will become fearfull of "hands". You can't hit a dog with the same hand that you pet them with. If you hit them with your hand, they will not know the differance when you extend that same hand to pet them. I was told to use a lightly rolled newspaper if it was needed. Just to "SAWT" or "TAP" not CLOBBER". Dogs will not like the sound. Eventually all one would have to do is shake the paper, no more swatting. The dog gets the message, and are not afraid of hands. I had never heard of the "time out" training, I'm going to try it. Thanks.

[Dawn]

Sorry Cali, I understand you're predicament-I just have to ask if there is some other way? Have you tried speaking with a professional trainer for advice?
Hitting is so-well...
I get the dog fight thing with the JRT-They are out of control - and can cause major damage- but the other things...
well-good luck-

[cali]

misty is gennerally a good dog she just counter surfs way to much, and has a tenency to start fights(well right now anyway, she is in season and has "doggie PMS" lol) I am acually a member of a dog club that specializes in positive reinforcment, so that is how most of our dogs are trained its only misty thats the problem, and there is no way I can leave her alone right now(in standing season) like I dont hit her hard just a slap on the shoulder hard enugh for her to get the message, she is a tough dog, my mom is a professinal trainer, well she has boxes of ribbons and trophies for obedience, in which she trained the dogs. I would take her to barbra loyd, but we just cant afford it right now, she worked wonders on happy though!:)

[Dawn]

Oh, well every training method is different-doesn't make them wrong-just different, and we all don't have to agree with those methods. Every dog is different too - some respond better to some types of methods than others-Tyr responded best to soft spoken, no hit training.
He had 2 different trainers as a pup, one I left because I thought she was too rough and he did not respond well to her. he was a very timid pup. (you wouldn't know that now) Our second trainer was a man, which he responds better to anyway, and he believed in "soft handed" training. He never raised his voice, was against choke collars, and didn't even need treats most of the time. He was wonderful. Tyr did really well in his class, and i learned alot from him.
His biggest suggestion was-always work with what your dog loves, and take that away when they are bad. It could be a toy, treat, belly rubs, long walks whatever makes them happy is the best rewards. Taking away your presence is the worst possible punishment. Walk away-go in another room or just leave the house for awhile.
Just suggestions. Like I said -what ever works for the individual and your dog-we don't all have to agree.

[carole]

I just wanted to say I am really pleased to see how well this thread has been handled, I have seen many similar ones end up quite differently, it would appear we have all learned not to pre-judge too harshly this time and when someone makes this kind of statement, to offer advice, and support , rather than to scold, WELL DONE PT.

Our pets are like children and therefore they need discipline too.I Feel this person acted out in fustration and fear, which is often how parents react towards their children in certain circumstances I am certain from what she has said it was a one off and will never ever happen again, and that is what really counts, we all make mistakes, its whether we learn from them or not.:)

[Twisterdog]

You can't hit a dog with the same hand that you pet them with. If you hit them with your hand, they will not know the differance when you extend that same hand to pet them. I was told to use a lightly rolled newspaper if it was needed.

Well, that's a bit of an exagaration. Now, if someone beats their dog all the time, sure, the dog is not going to understand, and is going to be afraid of that person. However, someone who slaps, taps, swats - whatever you want to call it - their dog once or twice is not going to instantly ruin the dog forever, and have it be forever afraid to be petted.

Also, I have not heard of any modern trainers that advocate the "rolled up newspaper" theory anymore. I could be wrong, but I think that is quite outdated.






I dont know what is it with you people and jumping to concusions honestly if anyone here says that they have never ever lashed out on there dog at least once in their lives they are lying. plain and simple. things happen, sometimes you have to do what you have to do

Cali ... lightning is going to strike ... we AGREE on something! ;) :)



I get the dog fight thing with the JRT-They are out of control - and can cause major damage- but the other things...

You know, Dawn, I'm pretty offended by that statement. Do you own a Parson Russell terrier? Ever owned one? Sorry, but they are not all "out of control". Not at all. A well bred Parson Russell terrier is energetic, hardworking and alert ... but not "out of control" by any means. We don't know Cali's dogs, maybe she does have to kick a fight apart. I have two Parson Russells, among six terriers total, and I've never had a problem with the PRT's fighting at all. I really hate breed generalizations. Not all Parson Russells are out of control, not all pit bulls are mean, not all border collies are hyper, not all chihuahuas are ankle biters, not all German shepherds are sneaky. Right? Breedism hurts us all. We are all in the dog world together.

[cali]

twister I agree, not all parsons are out of control however perky is a JACK russle not a parson, and she came from unknown background, she is definatly NOT out of control! she is a cat she sleeps on the back of the couch and causes the least trouble of the 6, well happy causes the least trouble but perky is right next to her, I have however met several person russle terriers that fight hard, but they are so light that they can be seperated by picking them up by the scruff, a JACK however is heavier, has short legs and a long back, they have strong very well muscled bodys making it near impossable to just pick then up, at least for a small person like me, also a jack russles stomach is so well muscled that they hardly feel anything when being kicked off the other dog, they just slid and continue on with there life, but by no means are they out of control, misty(border collie) starts way more fights then perky she is just tall and light easier to get off the other dog. but that does not mean she is out of control, it just means that misty herself is a nasty little devil ;)

[luckies4me]

Jack Russell Terriers and Parson Russell Terriers are the same thing. ;) Their name was recently changed to Parson instead of Jack.

[Marie410]

I just want to jump in on the discipline thing. Like I said in another post my two dogs have very different personalities. Reebok is very sensitive and simply raising my voice and speaking very firmly is enough to make him give me a slightly shamed look that shows me he understands. Sampson, on the other hand is a bit of a bonehead :rolleyes: I will tap him on the butt and then hold his head in my hands and speak very firmly. It seems to work.
And I swear these dogs trained me, not the other way around. Sampson is the only dog I have ever "spanked" (trust me, it's a tap, anything more would hurt me a hell of lot more than him). Reebok is the most intelligent dog I have ever owned. He is incredibly sesnistive to emotion and does not require a lot of discipline. I think we have to be tuned to our dogs, they sure have no problem tuning themselves to us.

As far as losing temper with a dog...the closest I ever came was when my first adult dog (my first dog as an adult) Sheena, nipped me a little too hard when were rough housing. I didn't slap her but I came close, it was my first reaction and I came soooo close. Instead I grabbed her collar and pushed her away, a little too roughly. She knew I was mad and :( I don't think she knew why. I felt awful, awful, awful :( :( :( I still do. I miss her sooooo much :(

[micki76]

Originally posted by luckies4me
Jack Russell Terriers and Parson Russell Terriers are the same thing. ;) Their name was recently changed to Parson instead of Jack.

No they’re not. Cali’s description is exactly correct. They have been divided into two different breeds.

Parson Russells have longer legs and are generally have a slighter build. The Jack Russell Terrier is the shorter, stockier version.

[cali]

luckies they are not the same thing, parson russles are the show type with long legs thin, shortish bodys jack russles are the working type, long body short legs, and well muscled body. the name was only changed to seperate the show type from the working type. :)

[cali]

ya beat me to it micki! :D lol

[luckies4me]

Huh I remember reading on the AKC site that they changed Jack Russels to Parson Russells after the guy who developed the breed............guess I was wrong.

[luckies4me]

This is what is says on the AKC site:

"The Parson Russell Terrier is bold and friendly, athletic and clever. At home he is playful, exuberant and overwhelmingly affectionate. He is an independent and energetic terrier and requires his due portion of attention.

The Parson Russell is a member of the Terrier Group and was first recognized by the AKC in 1997. For a breeder referral click here.

*Note: The name of the Jack Russell Terrier was changed to the Parson Russell Terrier effective April 1, 2003 as requested by the Jack Russell Terrier Association of America, which was changed to the Parson Russell Terrier Association of America."

So by reading this it would seem they are one in the same.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Yep, It looks like they are both the same breed.
Psst..luckies, I love your signature! :D

[wolfsoul]

Parsons and Jacks are actually two different things. :) The jack russel terrier clubs and societies wanted to recognize the shorter longer bodied ones as a different type to protect it from being bred for looks instead of working quality. So AKC changed the name to parson to help protect the jack russel from forming the old standard instead of being bred for their working ability.

[cali]

you got it wolfsoul :D

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Parsons and Jacks are actually two different things. :) The jack russel terrier clubs and societies wanted to recognize the shorter longer bodied ones as a different type to protect it from being bred for looks instead of working quality. So AKC changed the name to parson to help protect the jack russel from forming the old standard instead of being bred for their working ability.

Yes, but in reality they are still the same dog.

[wolfsoul]

Actually they are a separate breed.

http://www.pedigree.com.au/breeds/breeds.asp?b=51&p=j

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Actually they are a separate breed.

http://www.pedigree.com.au/breeds/breeds.asp?b=51&p=j

Nope sorry. Just because one has longer legs or whatever and they all of a sudden make them into two seperate breeds, they are STILL the same.

I don't think that just because one may be smaller or whatever it's all of a sudden a different breed.......just don't believe in the things the AKC does. So lets not argue anymore, you think something and I think another. So be it.


In about 60 years I will consider them their "own" breed.

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Yep, It looks like they are both the same breed.
Psst..luckies, I love your signature! :D


Thanks! :D

[Uabassoon]

Just because one has longer legs or whatever and they all of a sudden make them into two seperate breeds, they are STILL the same

So does that mean you think a toy and a standard poodle are the same breed?

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by Uabassoon
So does that mean you think a toy and a standard poodle are the same breed?


Um no....:rolleyes:

[cali]

they are a seperate breed, a jack russle is bred to work and ability NOT for looks the reason they have the long body, and short legs and well muscled is because they are bred for hunting going into the holes, and fighting with the larger game, a parson russle however is bred soley for looks and AKC couldent give a damn if they can work or not, which they cant, not well, their legs are to long to be going down a hole. they have been considerd the smae breed for many many years but the working Jack Russle people fiannly won the fight to make the show things that cant work a darned a seperate breed from the true working Jack russle.

[luckies4me]

Ok geez, I don't really care anymore ok? Fine they are seperate breeds..........

[aly]

I just wanted to make one point. This is not directed at Petlover, but I forgot who posted that they say their dog's name followed by "NO" when their dog does something bad. You should never use the dog's name for anything negative. It should be a very positive thing :) So if you do say no, just don't use the dog's name in the same sentence.

[aly]

Originally posted by luckies4me
You all are saying you have NEVER smacked your dog, not even on the butt or tapped them on the nose?

Yup, I have never EVER used physical punishment on any of my animals. Nor have I used it on any of the shelter animals I work with every day. I find it 100% UNNECESSARY and cruel. I only use positive reinforcement training methods.

I know petlover made a mistake and learned from it and I'm proud of her for that.

[cali]

I agree with aly on that one, one trainer said to have a seperate name as there "punnishment" name so to speak lor there whole name, for example mistys full name is mistletoe mischief so instead of saying misty no, you would say "mistletoe mischief NO" as we never call her by her full name, it is simpley printed on her awards.:)

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by aly
I just wanted to make one point. This is not directed at Petlover, but I forgot who posted that they say their dog's name followed by "NO" when their dog does something bad. You should never use the dog's name for anything negative. It should be a very positive thing :) So if you do say no, just don't use the dog's name in the same sentence.

I said I use "NO" but I don't do it in the same sentence.

All I have to do is say "NO" and normally they stop what they're doing and look at me like "HUH?"...

Yes, I have tapped Simba & Nala before.

[aly]

Originally posted by rachnjam27


Gee Rex, you scratched up that girl's face. Bad dog, here's a dog treat.



That is NOT how positive reinforcement training methods would work in that situation AT ALL! That is a gross over-exaggeration and you are applying it to the wrong situation.

I could explain how I would train in that situation but I have a feeling it would fall upon deaf ears.

I am not trying to be mean but I'm really getting upset finding out how many people spank their dogs :(

[aly]

Originally posted by Kfamr
I said I use "NO" but I don't do it in the same sentence.



Well someone else said they use it with their dog's name.

[luckies4me]

I don't think tapping my dog in the nose is going to hurt her or make her afraid of me or hands, or cause her any mental/physical anguish.....:rolleyes:


There's a difference between tapping your dog on the nose and slapping or hitting a dog hard enough for it to feel pain.

[binka_nugget]

I think it really depends on the dog. For Kai, I don't need to tap because I've learned that eye contact works even better. But for Kaedyn, eye contact is not going to work. I'm not saying tapping would be a 100% fool proof way to tell him no but it really varies from dog to dog. If I tapped Kai for every little nip, I'm almost certain that he'd start becoming fearful as he is a some-what timid dog. I guess if tapping is the only way that your dog gets the message, then fine.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Sometimes I HAVE to tap Molly on the nose. Like I said, once she decides she's not going to listen, there's no changing her mind; but tapping her works. It's not like I slap her in the face, it's just a tap on her nose. You think because I'm one of the people who does it, that makes me a bad pet owner??

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by aly
Well someone else said they use it with their dog's name.


I understand that.

[aly]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Sometimes I HAVE to tap Molly on the nose. Like I said, once she decides she's not going to listen, there's no changing her mind; but tapping her works. It's not like I slap her in the face, it's just a tap on her nose. You think because I'm one of the people who does it, that makes me a bad pet owner??

If you're talking to me, I don't think you're a bad pet owner because of what you've described. I wish you'd use different methods, but I don't think you abuse your dogs or anything.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by aly
If you're talking to me, I don't think you're a bad pet owner because of what you've described. I wish you'd use different methods, but I don't think you abuse your dogs or anything.

Do you have any other methods in mind? I hate doing it to her, but it's the only thing I've found that works.

[aly]

Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Do you have any other methods in mind? I hate doing it to her, but it's the only thing I've found that works.

It depends on what she's doing when she won't listen. If you describe to me the situations where you need to tap her, I could give some suggestions :)

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by aly
It depends on what she's doing when she won't listen. If you describe to me the situations where you need to tap her, I could give some suggestions :)

The only time I really do it, is when she's doing something she's not supposed to do (not things like barking, etc..) For example, she can be nippy around other dogs and people. I don't mind a little nipping, but sometimes she just won't stop, then people start to get angry and annoyed. That's when she doesn't listen, and that's when I do it.
Do you have any suggestions? :)

[wolfsoul]

The only time I tap Timber on the nose is when she's holding something she's not supposed to and won't let go. She knows the "drop" command, but chooses not to use it because "this is a new interesting toy and I don't want to drop it." The only thing she won't ever drop, even with a tap on the nose are Pedro's tennis balls. Poor guy. I've tried pushing the ball inside her mouth because that's supposed to make her repel and let go, but it doesn't work. I've tried distracting her, I've tried everything, but she won't let go. She isn't territorial or toy aggressive by any means. She just won't let go, and a tap on the nose with my index and middle finger solve it.

[Twisterdog]

Oh for pete's sake ... Parson Russell, Jack Russell .. whatever! I have one with long legs and one with short legs, and they were both rescues without AKC papers .... so it really doesn't matter what I call them. I could call them either name.

My point was not what the "official" name of the breed is now, or if there is one breed or two. I own two of the dogs, and I don't give a hoot what you call them.

My point was that it's not fair to label an entire breed "out of control" or "mean" or "stupid" and that sterotypes are not fair or right. Breedism is wrong .... that was my point people.

Sheesh. Kind of missing the forest for the trees there, eh?

:rolleyes:

[luckies4me]

I wasn't responding to what you said Twisterdog, and I knew what your point was. I was simply responding to Cali's post as I thought they were one in the same which they are, but now recently have been seperated into two breeds.


Which to me it would seem like they should just have one, the Parson Russell with the Jack Russell just being a poor standard of the breed, not show quality, if that is how they think of it. But anyways, who cares anymore lol. I could care less. :p

[Twisterdog]

I wasn't responding to what you said Twisterdog, and I knew what your point was. I was simply responding to Cali's post

I know. And my post wasn't directed at you. ;)

[rachnjam27]

Okay people, we're getting a bit off topic. I suggest this thread be split.

[luckies4me]

ooh ok lol. I can be such a dunce sometimes I swear! :rolleyes:


But just a quick question for you. If these dogs have been the same for so long, why did they seperate them into seperate breeds, when they just obviously wanted one that was the standard for the breed, as in a good hunting dog with nice body etc and not just pet friendly.......wouldn't they just put the Jack Russell as a non show quality animal? I mean all breeds have dog that make nice pets, but does that make them worthy of their own breed? I know some are bred only for companionship but it just confuses me. Although I have to say that Cali's last post made me understand a little better.