Relearning - warning, possibly offensive

[stacwase]

Warning: Animal cruelty will be mentioned in this thread. I know this thread is going to upset some people - but I implore you to really, really read it and understand it as it is meant.

Most of the people on Pet Talk were raised by good people who taught them to respect and value animals for the living, feeling, thinking beings that they are.

Unfortunately - Pet Talkers are a rare breed of people. I'm not sure, but I think that most people do not value animals in the same way as the people on Pet Talk. Most of us did not have that sort of upbringing, and we have had to come to our new understanding of animals on our own or through communication with others who already understand animals - you.

The rest of us count on you to guide us and help us in our quest to develop good relationships with animals. If you truly love animals, then you will take this duty seriously because then we will pass your love of animals down to our children and they will pass it down to theirs, and millions of animals will eventually benefit from your kindness.

In order for you to teach the rest of us, you must understand us and know why we do the things we do, and feel the things we feel, and why we sometimes don't understand the things which are so obvious to you!

So - I will use examples of my upbringing to hopefully help you to understand. Fortunately, most people aren't as terrible as my father was. However many, many of the things he did are actually very common and some of his attitudes are prevalent.

When I was growing up there were a few rules regarding animals.

Rule #1:
Nothing with fur is allowed in the house. Ever. Things with fur are filthy and carry diseases and do not ever belong in the house with humans.

Rule #2:
Any animal who destroys or damages anything belonging to anybody in this family must be destroyed.

Rule #3:
You must know that animals are objects and do not have feelings. They do not think. Any actions which you observe which give the impression of thoughts or feelings are purely instinctual. Animals do not feel physical or emotional pain. You must never form an emotional attachment to them.

Those three rules may seem extreme to you - but I can't count the number of people I know who believe those things!

Now - you might say "OK - even if your parents told you those things, you should know well enough not to believe them! You have a mind of your own! You should stand up to your parents. You shouldn't let them do things to hurt animals."

This is why I feel it's necessary to mention animal cruelty. My father ingrained those rules into our brains by forcing us to watch animal abuse with our eyes wide open. He didn't stop until each of us was able to watch it without flinching or crying or having nightmares or becoming upset in any way. He stripped us of our feelings for animals.

To enforce rule #1, he threw all animals out of the house. Through the attic fan while it was running, if they would fit. We were chastised if we cried, and reminded that those things wouldn't happen if we didn't bring the animals inside in the first place, to contaminate our home.

Many parents don't go to this extreme measure - but they do throw the animals outside and the children have to lay in bed listening to the poor things whine and cry outside in the cold.

After a while - you stop bringing the animals in. You want to believe your parents are good people - that's the nature of children! So you believe that they're just doing what they have to do to teach you a necessary lesson. If you're smart, you stop adopting strays altogether. Unfortunately most kids aren't that smart.

To enforce rule #2, he shot our Malamute (who had bitten my brother) in the chest and made us watch her die. We couldn't pet her or comfort her. We couldn't come inside the house until she was dead. It took several hours. Our ages: 12, 10, 7, 5, and 3. He also made us watch while he shot several other dogs and cats.

Other parents might not be so obvious about it. They "give the animals away to a rich family" or let them "run away" or "get lost". It's just as cruel to the animals, though less traumatic for the children. There's nothing the children can do to prevent this. It's not the children's fault! If your parents were doing these things, wouldn't you want to believe them? It sure would be easier than knowing the truth.

To enforce rule #3, he made us keep all animals outdoors without any sort of shelter. If we fed them, we were only allowed to feed them leftovers which were unfit for human consumption. They were not allowed to receive vet care. If our mother spent money on stupid things, the checkbook was taken away. Then she couldn't even go to the grocery store. So - the animals were not vaccinated and if they became ill they were shot. Why should we worry about it anyway? They couldn't feel. Diseases didn't hurt them.

Children can't do anything about their parents' financial situations or their beliefs about the necessity of caring for animals. Unfortunately, those beliefs are often passed on.


What do you think happens when these children grow up and have children of their own? They have been brainwashed. They're not cruel people. Maybe they work at soup kitchens or adopt foster children or help their elderly neighbors. They may go out of their way to help people, because people have thoughts and feelings. But to them animals are just possessions. Disposable. Like the chair in the dining room.

Is it their fault that they are that way? You would be that way too if you were forced to witness the abuse of animals year after year.

Please - when somebody comes on this board for advice about animals, commend them for coming! Teach them to value and respect animals! Don't be angry at them for not knowing. Don't assume that anything is common knowledge.

If a person happens to pay good money for a mixed breed puppy, give them the advice they need about spaying/neutering, and good animal care. Let them know in a nice way that backyard breeders are being cruel to animals. Don't berate them for being stupid enough to buy the puppy to begin with!

If somebody's parents bring home another puppy after disposing of countless other puppies - talk to that person nicely! See if she knows what's wrong with doing that. She probably does but is unable to control her parents. She probably wants to do everything she can to make that puppy's life as good as possible and to train that puppy to be good so that her parents won't get rid of it. At least she's strong enough not to follow in her parents beliefs about animals! She comes here, doesn't she?

If somebody feeds their dog a lower quality food, don't assume they know that it's not OK to do that! They may think they're doing something wonderful because they're not feeding the dog rotten leftovers!

Please - be patient and nice and teach people to love and respect animals. Don't be mean and teach them to dislike animal advocates.

I really appreciate everything Pet Talk has taught me. If I hadn't joined Pet Talk, Jake would still be sitting around with ear infections because I wouldn't even believe he could feel pain. Because of Pet Talk I have four healthy and happy animals. Pet Talk has been more valuable to me than I can even express!

Please take the responsibility of teaching others seriously, and don't use pet talk as a way to vent your frustrations at people. If you want to help animals, kindly teaching people is the way to do it.

[Samantha Puppy]

:( I'm so sorry you and your animals had to go through that, but I'm so happy to see that your father's views were not instilled in you!! I know not everyone is a fanatic about animals like I am, but I truly cannot understand anyone who believes as your father did. I just don't get it. :(

RIP to all those sweet angels that were done away with before their time.

[stacwase]

I know it's absolutely terrible, Samantha. It's like the animal holocaust because many, many people do those things! He did it because his dad did it. His dad did it because his grandpa did. And back, and back through the years.

[Karen]

Thank you. You bring a perspective to this board that many have never encountered, we are glad you are here to teach us what other people have to overcome.

It is, by the way, a good thing your Dad never met my Dad. I won't go further than that, but suffice it to say my upbringing was as opposite of yours as can be.

Thank you, bless you, and thank you for helping us understand.

[stacwase]

I don't know Karen - maybe my dad should have met your dad! ;)

[CamCamPup33]

:( Im sorry for your past expeirences.. in watching it i mean.. That must have been horrible.. R.I.P pups :(,, i think you are absolutley right about how instead of being angry, inform them, i feel the same.. Thanks for informing us and 'teaching' us..

[Logan]

I found it hard to read, but I wasn't offended, Stacwase. I am just incredibly sorry that you endured so much as a child, as well as your siblings. And of course, I'm so sorry for the animals who were in the care of your father.

I, like Karen, was brought up totally opposite. My parents probably didn't always do things the way I would now, but I truly believe that my mother instilled in me the values that I have towards all animals now, and my sensitivity towards their needs.

Thank you for reversing the trend in your family. I hope your brothers and sisters have done the same thing.

Logan

[Dawn]

Thanks for that insight.
You are right - while my father taught us to love nature and the creatures within and all living animals are beautiful and feel and should be treated with respect-my mother was always selfish and would "get rid" of pets because they were an inconvenience to her. Thankfully she was not so cruel as to shoot them or destroy them in cruel ways-but instead they would go to a shelter-or she would find them a new home.
But our poor family dog was mistreated and neglected for years after I left home - but I lived too far away to come take care of her.
In spite of her selfishness, I came thru being a true animal lover and "mom" did not rub off on me. I think there is hope for most-once they experience the love an animal can give.
I try hard to instill these things in my nephews and I will with my niece as she grows too (she is only 6 months old now) But you are so right-we are products of our parents, and it is up to us to help change the views of these people.

[lv4dogs]

That is the truth! I commend you for bringing that to peoples attention.

Althugh my father was not quite as drastic as yours he did believe if an animal did not suite you that it was disposable. Forget about trying to train the animal or anything. He did believe an animal could be in the house but ONLY in the mud room. The animal could go to the vets ONLY for rabies & to be neutered/spayed.
Although my mother & I loved animals & knew this was not right we had no other choice but to put up with it.

I also understand that others may not know as well as my mother & I did, some people truely believe what you said is right because that is how they were brought up.

I really try my darn hardest to teach people about animals w/o being rude & yelling etc.. I say I am sorry if that has ever happend, it must of been a bad day where I left my brain in bed.

[dukedogsmom]

That is so horrible. Don't be angry at me when saying your father sounded like a horrible man. I'm so thankful that you somehow escaped being like him. There's no telling the amount of damage he did to you and your siblings. Is there something that happened to him when he was young to make him behave that way?

[stacwase]

Of course something happened to him, Dukedogsmom! He was raised by somebody just like him.

I'm not looking for sympathy at all. I'm fine. I just want to emphasize that we need to be understanding and teach people who come on this board not knowing about how to love and care for animals. There are reasons for their lack of knowledge! We are all products of our environment. Pet Talk is an environment which can help people to become loving pet parents, instead of cold hearted pet owners. But we have to be a loving example of that - not hateful or mean.

[Amber]

Im sorry your father made you go through that kind of stuff.

[luckies4me]

WOW I could barely hold back the tears when I read this. :( Is your father still alive? Has he sought counceling? I am sorry for those animals and for you to have been brought up that way and am so thankful you chose your own path, one which is right. Thank you for coming here and explaining to us all. I agree with you. :)

[My Peanuts]

What a terrible and wonderful thread. It is terrible for obvious reasons. However, it is wonderful because it is preaching that we (pet talkers) should be the beginning of the end of these practices. I'm sorry that you had to experience such horrible things and you have no idea how glad I am that you broke that chain. I think it is already starting to get better because I don't know anyone who is that extreme. As Karen already said, it is a good thing your father didn't meet mine either :( Thank you for putting things into perspective.

[Dawn]

I think that we are all going away from the whole point of stacwase's thread.
Yes, the way her father treated animals was cruel-but her point was for us to understand that everyone is not as knowledgeable about pets as some of us-and we should try to overlook that and give advice when asked for it-instead of judging people and criticizing them-a good example-the thread about the girl who is getting her first dog-the shih-poo- instead of offering good advice-and helping her-she got a lot of nasty remarks about the type of dog she is choosing, backyard breeders, etc., etc.
Hello-don't you get it???

[wolfsoul]

Oh, how terrible. :( I wish that you didn;t have to go through that. And I wish nobody did. Those poor animals. You are very right, and thanks for posting this. Does your father still hate animals? :o

Sounds like someone I know...the dog was playing with the child, and the dog jumped up and accidentally scratched the girl's arm. So he took the dog out back and shot it. Just for a small scratch. :mad:

[cali]

I agree my mom tought me my love of animals but it was not always that way, my grandfather kicked many animals out of my moms life for no reason, my great grandfather(same side) threw my grandmas cats agaisn the wall until they were dead and forced my grandma to watch, my dad shot many animals, if for some reason he coul dnot keep them he did not even try to find them a home, send to to a shelter or have the humanly euthinized, no he took them out into the woods and shot them himself. my dad still has problems as such with animals, he has threatend to shoot our animals so many times, he has hit them and threw them :eek: its the way he was brought up, his father also had a horrable temper, my dad inherted it so bad that in our old old house he threw a sterio through the wall. my mom thankfully is nothing like them, she loves animals just as much as I do, and had many growing up, what else did she have? she never saw her parents, they were gone before she woke up and got home after she was in bed, she had the smae type of animals I did even and my great aunt also has the love for animals, I think its the men in my family with the temper problems and not to fond of animals, all the women love them, and had many growing up :) my mom broke the chain in my family because she split up from my dad, hopfully this chain is broken for good. :)

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by Dawn
I think that we are all going away from the whole point of stacwase's thread.
Yes, the way her father treated animals was cruel-but her point was for us to understand that everyone is not as knowledgeable about pets as some of us-and we should try to overlook that and give advice when asked for it-instead of judging people and criticizing them-a good example-the thread about the girl who is getting her first dog-the shih-poo- instead of offering good advice-and helping her-she got a lot of nasty remarks about the type of dog she is choosing, backyard breeders, etc., etc.
Hello-don't you get it???

I got the point of the thread. And I agree.
I am one of those that posted about the shih-poo and I don't think that I was being nasty about it, although this is the internet and it's hard to judge someone's tone from what they write. That person did get advice about house training and such, and they also got links as to what a byb is and why they are wrong so that in the future they will have learned, and maybe not choose to go that route again.

[stacwase]

[quote]Does your father still hate animals? [quote]

Wolfsoul, his attitude hasn't changed. My stepmother has an 18-year-old cat and my dad won't allow it in the house. When he married her about 9 years ago, he told her either the cat was moving out of the house or he was. Personally, I think she chose the wrong animal! Your story about the guy shooting the dog precisely describes the sort of person my father is to animals.


However - if you were to meet him you'd never guess it. He would hang on every word you said and listen very well, and you would think he was one of the nicest people you'd ever met. He has a very soft, gentle voice and demeaner (sp?) and generally treats people very well, except when it comes to animals.

He's very quiet. I just can't describe him. Everybody who meets him loves him. He's the leader of a popular bluegrass band (not famous - but plays in state fairs etc.) and writes beautiful lyrics. You'd really never know it. Because he would never be cruel to anything/anybody who he thought had a soul. He thinks of animals as just dirty objects, and doesn't think there's a place for them in a person's life or home.

? Anyway - enough of trying to describe him. That's not the point anyway. My point is just that if we really actually love animals, then we need to teach other people to love them, too. Our duty is to help not only our own animals but animals in general.

[stacwase]

[quote]Yes, the way her father treated animals was cruel-but her point was for us to understand that everyone is not as knowledgeable about pets as some of us-and we should try to overlook that and give advice when asked for it-instead of judging people and criticizing them-a good example-the thread about the girl who is getting her first dog-the shih-poo- instead of offering good advice-and helping her-she got a lot of nasty remarks about the type of dog she is choosing, backyard breeders, etc., etc.
Hello-don't you get it???[quote]

Thank you, Dawn.

[Cincy'sMom]

I can't imagine growing up in a house like that. Thank you for daring to believe differently than your father and not be brainwashed by his ways.

I think you are right, it is too easy for us to assume everyone is the animal lovers that the majority of PTers are. Unfortunatly there are a lot of people that do no have the information, or the upbringing to see animals they way we do. And when they come to this board would should try to educate and help them, not immediatly chastise them. We won't change everyone's view, but but if change a few, that is a start :)

[dukedogsmom]

I did not mean to offend or appear harsh. Sorry :(

[micki76]

Your father has some serious issues with pets and people. There are a lot of people who don’t think of pets as we do, but most people don‘t go to the extremes that your father did just because they don’t think animals have souls. It actually sounds like his point was more to torture you and your family than it was to torture the animals. :(

I hope that even though your father hasn’t sought any professional help, that at least you and your siblings have. Your father sounds like he was only trying to intimidate and punish you and not only did he commit animal abuse, but child abuse as well. IMHO.

I didn’t read the thread to which you are referring, but I know that it’s sometimes impossible for me to react without anger. There are certain situations that I cannot stand by and ignore. I feel the need to voice my opinion and I try to do it in the best way possible to covey my feelings.

[wolfsoul]

I agree Micki. This sounds more like psychological abuse towards his children. Although it is animal abuse, he isn't using it in the way a normal abuser might. I think he wanted to inimidate you by showing that he is "God" of the family and is strong so you should listen and do as your told.

Thanks for beining it up Micki, I never even thought of it until I read your post. :)

Do you think that might be how it is stacwase?

[stacwase]

You all do have a point about the abuse - and my siblings and I have gotten help (most of us anyway).

But please don't think I was looking for sympathy! I just wanted everybody to understand that there are often hidden reasons why people do the things they do and think the way they do.

Would it have been my fault if I had continued to believe that animals were simply possessions? After 18 years of having it so forcefully ingrained into me?

And the things other parents do may not be as obvious but they are just as bad. How many children have the same 3 rules for example? LOTS, though the rules may not be spoken. How many children do have to lay in bed worrying about their poor pets out in the cold and damp without good vet care? Well - count the # of houses with dogs tied up outside and that should give you a good idea.

By the time they grow up their hearts have hardened toward animals and they feel the same way!

So if a child (adult or not) of such parents comes into this forum with some of those same beliefs - well - at least they're here where we can teach them to love and respect the animals. I think that's what we're here for and that should be our common goal. We should band together to make the world a better place for animals!

[Tonya]

I am very sorry that you had to go through that. Thank you so much for sharing that part of your life. Hopefully it will help others to understand.

[Twisterdog]

Well, I too am one of the people who posted in the shih tzu/poodle puppy thread.

And I stand by what I posted 100%.

I do not feel I was mean or rude in any way. I was honest. Sometimes honesty is not what someone wants to hear, but it needs to be said nonetheless.

Here's a story for you all: You know by now, I'm sure, that my number one soap box is back yard breeders, puppy mills, pet stores, designer mutts, etc. Well, guess what ... I learned these lessons the hard way. My first dog, Lacie, I bought from a pet store. Before she came to the pet store she was born in an Amish puppy mill in Indiana. I didn't know anything about pet store puppies or puppy mills. I just thought she was cute. Actually, what I thought was that I was getting the "best of the best" in the dog world ... because she came from a pet store and had AKC papers.

Two days after I got her, she became deathly ill. She had parvo. So much for the "vaccinations" she got, huh? That was just the beginning of her problems, including worms, mange, dehydration, etc. I was still paying on that vet bill years later.

Lacie also has epilepsy, which developed before the age of one. She has been on phenobarbitol, which causes liver damage, to control grand mal seizures for thirteen years. She also has an enlarged heart and defective heart valves. I have been told by numerous vets, including Colorado State University Veterinarian College, that both of these problems are inherited problems, caused by poor breeding practices.

I have literally spent the cost of a small car on her vet care over the last fourteen years. I make a monthly payment to my vet, just like the house payment and the electricity bill. Not to mention the pain and suffering she has been through. And why? Because a greedy back yard breeder/puppy mill didn't care about anything but money, and a greedy pet store owner agreed.

And .... because no one told me about these things. I had to learn the hard way. And when someone finally did tell me - my wonderful vet - she didn't sugar coat it and ooooh and aaaah over my cute little puppy mill/pet store puppy. She told me in no uncertain terms the way it was, and how I had been part of the problem, not part of the solution. I listened, and I listened good, and it changed my life. She said what had to be said, even if it wasn't pretty, and for that I am forever grateful.

I got involved in shelters and rescues shortly after buying Lacie, and have been involved ever since. I have seen things that no one should have to see happen to animals. I can't begin to count the thousands of dogs I've seen die. And why? Greed again. And because no one told these people that there is a better way, another way.

I will tell people. I will be the voice that needs to be heard. It is the least I can do for the Lacie's of the world ... and worse yet, for the mother's of the Lacie's of the world - stuck in a 2 foot by 2 foot cage, having two litters a year; filthy, sick, hungry, with mange and maggots. I've seen it first hand. Then, when they can't have puppies anymore, they are killed, and another put in that cage. I will be the voice for them.

And if that offends someone or hurts someone's feelings, I'm sorry. The real world isn't always sunshine and roses. But turning a blind eye to the problems of the dog fancy and sticking your head in the sand only makes it worse.

[Cincy'sMom]

I have to admit, I have not read the shih tzu/poodle puppy thread, so please do not think I am acuusing anyone of anything, or taking sides. I don't know what "sides" are.

I do not think it is wrong educate people about puppy mills and BYB. I am amazed by the number of people who do not know these things exist. It is important to educate and get the word out.

That being said, the education has to be that...not an attack. And once the information is given, the person's response should not be a counter-attack. Maybe that person won't change her mind this time about the pet, but now, next time they are ready to get a pet, they may think twice about where it comes from.

Try as hard as we want, we can't make decisions for other people. I wold love to convince everyone to adopt a dog over 1 year old from a pound/humane society/rescue group...but it isn't going to happen. All I can do is trying to give people as much information as I can and hope they will be convinced not to buy frm a puppy store or BYB...but I can't make that choice for them and once they have that dog, it is still a dog that deserves love and the best home possible.

You will never win everyone one over, but if you can change one person's mind by telling the story of your dog, you are making a difference.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

How horrible. :(
I know how you feel. I have a few "family members" who are similar. They just HATE Molly and Daisy, why? I haven't a clue. And the dogs know it. They keep their distance. I for one, am glad my parents are animal lovers, and would never think of doing horrible things like that. If they were, I dread to think how I would have ended up being.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. Thanks so much for sharing it, I'm glad you ended up the great person you are. :)

[Linda York]

:( :( This was a VERY informative post. Most of us have never lived nor knew anyone who lived such a life. Sometimes we live in our own worlds, unaware that the is an other side of life out there. To know it does help us understand people and life better. To help (and teach) others as we go through life. I felt MANY, MANY, :eek: emotions while reading the post. From VERY sad to VERY angry. Thank you for sharing your story to help us understand. I am very glad that you are the person you are today. I too, have to agree with others, that your Father abused everyone, not only your pets. He lived what he was taught. I also have to say that when subjects are brought up on PT and opened up for "discussion", alot of differant thoughts, opinions and beliefs are brought to the table. Sometimes people ask for help, opiniions, and thoughts, but feel, when they get the answers, that people are being judgemental. I don't beleive that. Differant thoughts and opinions are just that "differant". Not judgemental. This is a forum and we all won't agree. We all just have our own opinions. Differant opinions or disagreeing are not being judgemental. Just as this thread.... it affected us all in many differant ways. We all took from it what we understood, and how it may have affected us and gave back our thoughts. Thank you for sharing... If it has reached or help one person, it was worth it.

[Linda York]

I also agree:

BE THE VOICE FOR THE VOICELESS.......

Sometimes we are all that they have. :)

[ramanth]

I know you're not looking for sympathy, but I am so sorry you grew up in that kind of enviroment. I can't imagine my life without some sort of pet in it.

You were brave to share and I agree with your message.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Linda York
I also agree:

BE THE VOICE FOR THE VOICELESS.......

Sometimes we are all that they have. :) Exactly. Which is why I have decided (and my fiance said it was fine) that our money to charity will go to animal-related ones... no-kill shelters, regular shelters, anything to help them out. There are plenty of people out there worried about humans - but animals can't do this on their own, so I want to help. :) (... when I can afford it, which is T minus 214 days and counting!!!)