So You'd Like To Become A Vegetarian? [Archive]

mahayana

11-02-2003, 02:33 PM

Thanks for the encouragement. One thing you can look forward to Mugsy, once you decide to not put the meat on your plate, you will lose about 10 pounds! Even though a large part of the protein in there is unneeded, and not digested, those three servings of meat a day most Americans eat account for a large part of the fat we eat (both in the meat and the way it is cooked).

I read a letter to Dear Abby once where a young girl had decided to become a vegetarian. She just "couldn't stand the thought of eating meat anymore." Her question to the advice columnist was "what can I do...I really don"t like vegetables..."

popcornbird

11-02-2003, 02:38 PM

I don't want to be a vegetarian........mainly because it doesn't fit my lifestyle, and I could never live without my chicken. Take the sheep, goat, beef, fish, etc. away from me any day, but I really can't go on without chicken! :p He he he

But I'd love to hear what you have to say. I think its perfectly fine healhwise to eat meat, if its eaten moderately, and not too often..........and its not in my household. So many days a week we eat just vegetarian, and when we eat meat, its usually fish or chicken. Occasionally we'll eat red meat, but to be honest...........I'm really not *so* fond of it. I mean, I like it, but its not my favorite. :)

Aspen and Misty

11-02-2003, 02:42 PM

::raises hand::

I've been talking to Veegan and Kater on here about going Vegertarian for about 2 months maybe more. I want to so bad. I only eat meat now about 1 or 2 times a week, where I used to eat it atleast every day. So I'm very proud, I'm slowly going Vegertarian, I'm very pleased with myself to :D

Ash

mahayana

11-02-2003, 03:30 PM

Dear A & M- I have a book on my lap called "The Gradual Vegetarian" by Lisa Tracy, Dell Publishing, 1985. It has hundreds of recipes, many of which taste like meat dishes.

There are also some mushrooms which taste just like steak.

I personally see nothing wrong with a "mostly" vegetarian diet. In chinese cooking, one american meat portion suffices for a whole dish, because they cut the chicken, pork or beef into chopstick-size pieces.

Incidently, my wife loves chicken like popcornbird. Something is missing on Sunday if she doesn't get her fried chicken........something from childhood?

Also- if anyone wants to get into objections to vegetarianism here, please feel free to do so! I love to debate.

slick

11-02-2003, 04:04 PM

[i]Also- if anyone wants to get into objections to vegetarianism here, please feel free to do so! I love to debate. [/B]
I know you are new here but I just thought I would mention that we've had many threads on this before and believe me, some of the debates can get pretty "hot". I do appreciate hearing everybody else's perspective, but this is a plea to PT'ers. If you want to debate this issue again, be considerate of other people's feelings. And that's all I got to say about that.

except....I'm a meat-eater and always will be.

mugsy

11-02-2003, 06:07 PM

Well, we just got back from the store and Mike was wonderful about being willing to do this diet thing. He agreed to try yogurt and he even bought BOCA burgers!! lol That is an amazing step. He detests veggies! hehehe I thought you might like that.

mahayana

11-02-2003, 07:04 PM

Slick- thanks for the heads-up. I would never try to change anyone, try to make them become a vegetarian. When I first stopped eating meat, it was because I felt that it was the right decision, for me.

After you break with a cultural norm, like eating meat, it is easy to rationalize your position, think that others are wrong. For example, ex-smokers being such butts to smokers. But I am not like that.

And there is that bothersome detail, humans having canine teeth..

dukedogsmom

11-02-2003, 07:16 PM

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a hypocrite when it comes to this. I hate the fact that I do contribute to killing the animals. I've often considered being a vegetarian but have no idea where to start. So, any help would be great.

G.P.girl

11-02-2003, 07:24 PM

i think the best ay to start being a vegetarian is not to stop cold turkey [no pun intended], but to choose a vegetarian meal over a meaty meal. like ata restuant just it doesn't have to be a vegetable. it can be pizza or a baked potato something other than steak or fried chicken. you know?i don't know if i wrote that right. i'm not very good at writing

mahayana

11-02-2003, 07:38 PM

How to start? Just try to make as many meals as you can without meat. If others in your family are used to meat, fix it, but have other protein dishes for you to eat instead. Anything with beans, eggs, cheese or fish will substitute for meat.

Shelteez2

11-02-2003, 07:56 PM

Why do some vegetarians not consider fish meat?? Just curious.

wolfsoul

11-02-2003, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by popcornbird
I don't want to be a vegetarian........mainly because it doesn't fit my lifestyle, and I could never live without my chicken. Take the sheep, goat, beef, fish, etc. away from me any day, but I really can't go on without chicken! :p He he he

well there are different types of vegetarians, and some are allowed to eat chicken. :) I believe that there is one kind that only eats chicken and fish.

I'd love to be a vegetarian, but my mom won't buy soy or tofu. So I'm stuck eating meat lol. I don't know if I'd be able to stand going out for chinese and not eating the yummy buffalo wings and sweet and sour pork and teryaki chicken wings...mmmm...LOL. I *might* be able to deal without those, but I could never EVER go without milk or eggs.

mahayana

11-02-2003, 08:32 PM

wolfsoul- You do not have to eat tofu or soy to be a vegetarian. Soybean is just one kind of bean. All beans contain protein. My favorite bean is the lentil. They cook real fast and are delicious.

Being a vegetarian is just not eating meat.

I was answering the question of how to start when I suggested fish as a meat substitute. If you are becoming a vegetarian to not kill (or pay for the killing of) cows, pigs, chickens- then eating fish is ok. Mammals, and even warm blooded birds, are much more like us than fish.

One important thing to remember in becoming anything, is to not take yourself too seriously..........(seriously!)

Shelteez2

11-02-2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
well there are different types of vegetarians, and some are allowed to eat chicken. :) I believe that there is one kind that only eats chicken and fish.

I'm sorry, but a person can't be vegetarian if they eat chicken. That's just my personal opinion.

Kater

11-02-2003, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by mahayana
I can help! I've tried most of the vegetarian diets, from lacto-ovo to vegan, and would be glad to share details.
So what type of vegetarian are you now?

wolfsoul

11-02-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Shelteez2
I'm sorry, but a person can't be vegetarian if they eat chicken. That's just my personal opinion.
There are different kinds of vegetarians. They have different terms. I researched them while doing a project in English last year. Some eat eggs and milk. Some eat chicken and fish. Some eat beef. Some don't eat any animal proteins at all.

Mahayana -- my mom won't buy those either lol. She only buys the beans in the discount bin, and you get what you get from that.

wolfsoul

11-02-2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
There are different kinds of vegetarians. They have different terms.
Here are the terms, from this (http://www.kidzworld.com/site/p3002.htm) site:

Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian: A Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian is someone who eats dairy products (like milk and cheese) as well as eggs and all plant-based foods (this is veggies, grains, fruits, etc.)

Lacto Vegetarian: A Lacto Vegetarian is someone who eats dairy products and plant-based foods but not eggs.

Ovo Vegetarian: An Ovo Vegetarian is someone who eats eggs and plant-based foods but no dairy products.

A Vegan: This is someone who does not eat any dairy products or eggs and only eats plant-based foods.

Shelteez2

11-02-2003, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
There are different kinds of vegetarians. They have different terms. I researched them while doing a project in English last year. Some eat eggs and milk. Some eat chicken and fish. Some eat beef. Some don't eat any animal proteins at all.

Mahayana -- my mom won't buy those either lol. She only buys the beans in the discount bin, and you get what you get from that.

And I still stand by my opinion that if you eat any meat you cannot call yourself a vegetarian.

It's like saying you are a law abiding citizen except when you rob banks.

aly

11-02-2003, 11:58 PM

Twisterdog

11-02-2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Here are the terms, from this (http://www.kidzworld.com/site/p3002.htm) site:

Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian: A Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian is someone who eats dairy products (like milk and cheese) as well as eggs and all plant-based foods (this is veggies, grains, fruits, etc.)

Lacto Vegetarian: A Lacto Vegetarian is someone who eats dairy products and plant-based foods but not eggs.

Ovo Vegetarian: An Ovo Vegetarian is someone who eats eggs and plant-based foods but no dairy products.

A Vegan: This is someone who does not eat any dairy products or eggs and only eats plant-based foods.

wolfsoul, the four terms you quoted are correct. However, please note as you read them again, nowhere in any definition is there any mention of eating fish, chicken or beef.

If you eat fish, chicken or beef, you are NOT a vegetarian. You are a meat-eater. I think that is pretty much basic common sense.

The items that differ in the four definitions above are dairy products and eggs. The production of milk, cheese, eggs, etc. does not actually kill the animal producing the product, therefore some vegetarians think they are ok to consume. And some do not. However, killing a cow or a chicken and eating it in NO way makes you a vegetarian.

BTW, my brother has been a vegetarian for almost thirty years.

wolfsoul

11-03-2003, 12:05 AM

Maybe I'm mistaken, I just thought I remember something on my project. I'll have to tell my friend because she says she is a veggie and she eats chicken and fish..

Kater

11-03-2003, 12:14 AM

Yeah, some people I've met that don't eat red meat believe they are some kind of vegetarian. If you eat ANIMAL FLESH then no, you aren't really a vegetarian. It's really quite simple.

G.P.girl

11-03-2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Shelteez2
Why do some vegetarians not consider fish meat?? Just curious.
some people don't eat meat because they dont like the way animals are raised.. and most fish arent raised in a tiny little aquarium. they are caught in the ocean.

Twisterdog

11-03-2003, 12:33 AM

Yeah, some people I've met that don't eat red meat believe they are some kind of vegetarian. If you eat ANIMAL FLESH then no, you aren't really a vegetarian. It's really quite simple.

Yes, it is. I agree.

some people don't eat meat because they dont like the way animals are raised.. and most fish arent raised in a tiny little aquarium. they are caught in the ocean.

That makes no sense. First of all, a large portion of the fish sold in grocery stores and fish markets is farmed fish, especially salmon. The vast majority of salmon sold today is farmed.

Secondly, what if you eat free-range cattle and sheep? They roam around free all over the western USA, before they are killed. What if you eat wild meat ... like deer, elk, pronghorn, rabbit, sage chicken, grouse, duck, goose, etc.

Are you still a vegetarian?

NO. If you eat meat, you are NOT a vegetarian ... it has NOTHING to do with where the meat happened to live.

Kfamr

11-03-2003, 04:54 AM

NOPE! I don't want to be a vegetarian! :D

mahayana

11-03-2003, 04:59 AM

friends- you have raised a few more issues about vegetarians. I will try to hit them all briefly.

first, I'm holding my beat-up copy of Frances Moore Lappe's "Diet For A Small Planet."(1971, Ballantine Books) You can probably find a copy in your public library. This is one of the original vegan bibles, it explains how to get the eight amino acids that must come from outside our bodies, without eating meat.

This book is subtitled "getting off the top of the food chain", and about half of the book is devoted to complementary protein recipes. A part of the vegan philosophy is that it is wasteful of farm resources to use land to produce grain to feed livestock, then eat the livestock, when we could simply eat the grain.

Please read this book, if you can find it.

Vegans are the "strictest" of vegetarians; they choose to eat no animal products or fish. The argument against eggs is that, if fertilized they are really chickens, if not they are the product of the layer-house, which kills most of the males. Dairy herds also sell off the bulls, and non-productive cows, to the meat industry.
Of course, fishes are a kind of animal.

My oldest son was born in Summertown TN, at "the Farm", the nation's largest vegan community.

Most vegetarians are not vegans, or strict, or perfect, hah!

mahayana

11-03-2003, 06:06 AM

Secondly- there is a discussion here about "calling yourself a vegetarian." This is what I was referring to about taking yourself too seriously.

Being a vegetarian is not the same as passing a test, or winning a contest. Not only won't you get a prize, a lot of folks will think you are strange, picky, stupid... Talking about vegetarianism is akin to talking about sex-religion-politics, in terms of peoples' reactions.

So don't be put off, or get defensive. What you eat is your choice. And eating less meat means contributing less to the meat industry.

I guess what I'm saying is you have to think about why you want to be a vegetarian, be true to that. Don't beat yourself up if you "lapse" and eat a pepperoni by accident. And be kind to others who are not on your path.

Another vegetarian diet I followed was "fruitarian." This one rejects killing plants, as well as animals. Basically, you eat fruits and nuts and seeds, and only vegetables such as brussels sprouts , asparagus, squash, tomatoes,etc where the plant is not killed. (this one was even harder to explain to others!)

babolaypo65

11-03-2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Shelteez2
And I still stand by my opinion that if you eat any meat you cannot call yourself a vegetarian.

It's like saying you are a law abiding citizen except when you rob banks.

Then I'm a mostly vegetarian.
I've been a vegetarian off and on most of my adult life.
Currently I eat some fish (once a month or less). As mahayana noted some people put fish in a different category because of how they are raised. (note that not even PETA discusses fish the same).
Granted, that has little to do with my decision not to eat meat.

I choose to eat fish at this time.
I usually call myself a vegetarian.
Perhaps my eating fish once in a while is more akin speeding, or not using a turn signal than robbing banks. :D

I'll also take this time to do my usual plug for Morningstar Farms products (especially the corn dogs), and for Melissa's Soy Taco (the BEST meat substitute imho).

dukedogsmom

11-03-2003, 10:12 AM

I think the closest I could get to this is just eating fish and having milk in my cereal. It would be a lot better than what I've been doing, you know?

wolfsoul

11-03-2003, 10:13 AM

I talked to my friend who says she a vegetarian...she says she only eats organic meats from a friend's farm where the chickens are well taken care of. And she says fish doesn't count. :confused: But the chicken part isn't right, is it?

2kitties

11-03-2003, 10:55 AM

I believe in the food chain so I'll keep the meats in my diet. But I love cooking vegetarian when I'm having a dinner party and inviting my close friend who's a vegetarian. She's introduced me to some wonderful dishes and I've come to eat even more vegetables. I suppose I could give up red meat if I had to, but never fish and chicken- and especially not dairy! Yum!

Maresche

11-03-2003, 11:37 AM

<raises hand>

One ovo-lacto veggie over here!

mahayana

11-03-2003, 12:12 PM

I have really been enjoying this! Thanks for all the thoughts and opinions and questions, everyone.

Kater asked yesterday what kind of vegetarian I am now. A non-threatening and honest and supportive one, I hope! As for what I eat, I do variations on the vegetarian theme. Since starting this thread I have been eating macrobiotic, just brown rice and vegetables. This is not a healthy diet in the long term, and when I tire of it I will change. In the present, I feel light and calm and centered, and connected to the millions of poor people who are eating meals similar to mine.

The vegans would tell someone commited to this diet to please eat a bowl of beans, and take this B-vitamin tablet!

2Kitties- glad you enjoy fixing vegetarian food. It is aesthetically pleasing cuisine, besides tasting good and promoting health.

Not eating meat is no harder than what allergic people do, not eating chocolate, orange juice, peanuts, whatever.

And to repeat my views about "you cannot call yourself a vegetarian" thinking: One who chooses to eat vegetarian most of the time, because they like it, may not be a "real" vegetarian by some standards. But I applaud and include them here.

I know folks who have fixed a gluten roast instead of turkey for Thanksgiving all their adult lives, yet sometimes eat fish.

It doesn't mean you are not a member of your church, because you attend services elsewhere occasionally.

Not that vegetarianism is a religion- or is it?

wolflady

11-03-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by babolaypo65
...
I'll also take this time to do my usual plug for Morningstar Farms products (especially the corn dogs), and for Melissa's Soy Taco (the BEST meat substitute imho).

I love Morningstar Farms! I was introduced to it by my friends who are vegetarian because of allergy to meat. I absolutely adore the breakfast sausage patties and the buffalo wings! :D I haven't tried the corn dogs though, so next time I'm in the store I'll pick some up:)

2kitties

11-03-2003, 01:08 PM

I'm not a vegetarian but I LOVE Morningstar burgers. They're spicy black bean grillers are fantastic. In fact, I had one yesterday.

babolaypo65

11-03-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by wolflady
I love Morningstar Farms! I was introduced to it by my friends who are vegetarian because of allergy to meat. I absolutely adore the breakfast sausage patties and the buffalo wings! :D I haven't tried the corn dogs though, so next time I'm in the store I'll pick some up:)

I love the sausage and buffalo wings too!
try the corn dogs they are to die for! And pretty low in fat, high in fiber....

zippy-kat

11-03-2003, 01:14 PM

I don't like Morningstar burgers. I'm a Boca burger girl... but hey, they're produced right here in my town! ;)

Maresche

11-03-2003, 02:06 PM

I also really enjoy the Morningstar products. The spicy black bean burger is my favorite, but I also really like the "chicken" nuggets and veggie dogs. My omni husband prefers their buffalo wings to meat sandwiches.

Another great meat substitute I've found is the sausage Gimme Lean puts out. It tastes just like the real thing, but the texture is a bit different. It smells just like the real thing and goes great with Sunday Morning Pancakes.:D My girls (3 cats) still come running into the kitchen when I make it up just like they did when we did real sausage.

Aspen and Misty

11-03-2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by mahayana
Dear A & M- I have a book on my lap called "The Gradual Vegetarian" by Lisa Tracy, Dell Publishing, 1985. It has hundreds of recipes, many of which taste like meat dishes.

There are also some mushrooms which taste just like steak.

I personally see nothing wrong with a "mostly" vegetarian diet. In chinese cooking, one american meat portion suffices for a whole dish, because they cut the chicken, pork or beef into chopstick-size pieces.

Incidently, my wife loves chicken like popcornbird. Something is missing on Sunday if she doesn't get her fried chicken........something from childhood?

Also- if anyone wants to get into objections to vegetarianism here, please feel free to do so! I love to debate.

Thanx. I was sitting at my lunch today and I sat there debating, take the ham off, or eat it like it is and just say "Well hey it's only one meal" Needless to say I picked all the ham out :D

One thing me and Veegan and Kater have talked about is, I have to admit, that I'm a Cheeseaholic, I love cheese. I could eat it all the time, for every meal, so they told me it was ok to give up everything but cheese, so thats what I'm going to do. Cause I love my cheese, man I need to move to Wisconsin.

I'm a Cheesehead, and proud of it :D

Ash

Twisterdog

11-03-2003, 10:28 PM

Another vegetarian diet I followed was "fruitarian." This one rejects killing plants, as well as animals. Basically, you eat fruits and nuts and seeds, and only vegetables such as brussels sprouts , asparagus, squash, tomatoes,etc where the plant is not killed. (this one was even harder to explain to others!)

I understand that distinction, I think you explained it well. Could you please give me some examples of a plant that is actually killed when it is eaten? I'm having trouble thinking of one.

And ... I bet you are the thinnest person! :)

mahayana

11-04-2003, 07:18 AM

Twisterdog, you are right. Fruitarians don't eat vegetables. I am a gardener and botanist besides growing fruit trees and bushes and pecan trees, so I was riffing on the fruitarian logic.

Not killing (thou shall not kill) is one of the ethical principles behind vegetarianism, and to my thinking fruitarians could eat the fruits of vegetable plants. Digging a carrot or pulling up a potato plant kills the plant, but it doesn't feel anything like taking the life of an animal, hah.

I'm surprised noone bit on my question about vegetarianism and religion. To me , it is tied to spiritual pursuits.

Would anyone like to share why they became a vegetarian?

Or why it appeals to them? Or offends them?

A & M- most people do start vegetarian diets that include eggs and cheese. That way you can still have omelets and pizza! Milking a cow or goat, and gathering eggs, are ok with me! You are ok with the cheese.

Maresche

11-04-2003, 08:24 AM

Aspen & Misty- I am the same way regarding cheese. I'll cut out almost every other form of milk but cheese by far is going to be the hardest thing for me.

Twisterdog- Veggies come in all shapes and sizes just like omnis do. For example, I have been veggie for roughly two years and am a size 18. Yes, I lost some weight initially, but there are plenty of veggie things that pack on the pounds too (I for one, am addicted to peanut butter on Ritz crackers).

Why did I become veggie?

Hm, I guess it would be for way the animals live before they are slaughtered. 3-4 chickens in a cage roughly the size of a sheet of paper, turkeys pumped so full of hormones their legs can't carry their weight to walk around, calves and pigs kept in pens so small they can't turn around, etc. etc.

And then of course, there is the way they are slaughtered, but I won't go into that at present.

There are the health concerns too.

A thought I came up with for myself was, if I couldn't kill it myself, how could I justify eating it. For each person it is different though and not everyone is cut out to be a veggie.

Kater

11-04-2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by mahayana
Would anyone like to share why they became a vegetarian?

I've loved many animals for their character and intelligence. They express affection, have moods, and feel pain just as humans do. This is true of all animals, including the ones that we don't see everyday or have as pets. It is true of those that live in utter misery on factory farms, or those tortured in labs. Society makes these lives invisible so people don't have to think or take responsibility for their actions. But I do not wish to ignore these lives. I believe that each of their lives is as valuable as any human life.

I am vegan because my pain is no greater than their pain. I suffer the same as a dairy cow, the same as a lab rat. I am vegan because I can see the unnecessary suffering in a shampoo bottle and the loneliness in zoos. I am vegan for every animal whose pain was silenced or brushed aside. I am vegan because I feel that caring about something is more important than convenience, because my pain is no greater than theirs, and I can see this.

I think that people are intricately connected to all other beings and that any perceived separation or superiority is our own creation. I believe in animal rights because I've never been able to look into an animal's eyes and see a soul worthy of death and suffering. I wonder what this world would look like if we started looking at every being's soul like that.

mahayana

11-04-2003, 05:31 PM

Kater- Your words are eloquent and touching. There is nothing in your last post that I disagree with, only things I hope to amplify.

Your goal of becoming a veterinarian to ease the suffering of others is also laudable. This is a path full of heart.

Laughing Buddha wants to know if the sign outside your clinic will read : VEGETARIAN VETERINARIAN :D

Kater

11-04-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by mahayana
Laughing Buddha wants to know if the sign outside your clinic will read: VEGETARIAN VETERINARIAN :D

heeheehee! ;)

I want to compliment you on your ability to discuss this subject without evoking defensiveness from others --- the other threads on this topic have tended to "get out of hand." Your style is something I would like to emulate! :)

mahayana

11-04-2003, 09:20 PM

thanks Kater for the kind words. As I said in my very first post on pet talk, I am a pacifist. I don't expect folks to agree with me, but I value all imput of honest opinions. The ideas that are different help deepen your understanding, of any subject.

I am fascinated with the sources of strong beliefs. (one might call them prejudices, cultural programming, religious brain-washing- if you disagree with them, hah). But the dialectic really does modify these, as do signifigant life experiences. And you can choose to love your enemy...forgive 70 x 7...now my prejudices are showing!

"First, do no harm..."

I think a hippopotamus said that;)

Aspen and Misty

11-04-2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Kater

I've loved many animals for their character and intelligence. They express affection, have moods, and feel pain just as humans do. This is true of all animals, including the ones that we don't see everyday or have as pets. It is true of those that live in utter misery on factory farms, or those tortured in labs. Society makes these lives invisible so people don't have to think or take responsibility for their actions. But I do not wish to ignore these lives. I believe that each of their lives is as valuable as any human life.

I am vegan because my pain is no greater than their pain. I suffer the same as a dairy cow, the same as a lab rat. I am vegan because I can see the unnecessary suffering in a shampoo bottle and the loneliness in zoos. I am vegan for every animal whose pain was silenced or brushed aside. I am vegan because I feel that caring about something is more important than convenience, because my pain is no greater than theirs, and I can see this.

I think that people are intricately connected to all other beings and that any perceived separation or superiority is our own creation. I believe in animal rights because I've never been able to look into an animal's eyes and see a soul worthy of death and suffering. I wonder what this world would look like if we started looking at every being's soul like that.

I'm always asked why did you become vegertarian (As i do not eat meat no more, even if that means taking 10 mins to pick all the peperonies off the pizza :p ) and you put it into teh words I have such a hard tiem finding!

That was moving,
Ash

veegan

11-05-2003, 01:18 AM

I dont even know where to begin here. I have so much I want to say! jskdfjd;fsd writing is certainly not one of my strong points, and it seems I am just having an even harder time putting my thoughts and feelings in to words tonight! lol especially when such amazing things have already been said! so bare with me, I will do my best. I guess first of all since its most fresh in my mind, I just want to just say that, Kater, you took every thought of mine and put them into even more perfect words than I could ever have even imagined. I mean there cannot possibly be a better way to have put my feelings of “why am I vegan?” into words. I want to just print that out and if anyone ever asks me again why on Earth do I choose to be vegan, I can hand them that. Seriously. Can I do that? lol You honestly nearly brought me to tears. I am speechless. I have been sitting here for nearly 45 minutes typing and then erasing, typing, erasing, typing, erasing. I cannot come up with anything to add/reply without feeling like Im just repeating what has already been said perfectly.

Mahayana- welcome to PT! again, Kater took the words right out of my head, “I want to compliment you on your ability to discuss this subject without evoking defensiveness from others. … Your style is something I would like to emulate!” It is wonderful to have another open minded, well informed, and patient (!) veggie here. (and a pacifist at that! :D) I enjoyed your comment about vegetarianism and religion. lol that is something I have thought about many times. :) and what you said here:

“Since starting this thread I have been eating macrobiotic, just brown rice and vegetables. This is not a healthy diet in the long term, and when I tire of it I will change. In the present, I feel light and calm and centered, and connected to the millions of poor people who are eating meals similar to mine.”

was truly inspiring. I know that feeling. even with a vegan diet I feel that sometimes because I know how wasteful raising livestock is. however there are many times I just feel sick even thinking about eating because I know so very many people are suffering with little to no food. I feel selfish when I over eat and even for being over weight sometimes.

A&M- congrats on the self control! :D glad you picked those hams off! :) keep up the good work baby! ;)

binka_nugget

11-05-2003, 01:52 AM

The thought of becoming a vegetarian has appealed to me. I was a major meat eater a few years ago. I cut back because for one, I didn't think I'd lose any weight by eating all this meat and two, I could never get near my 5-10 servings of fruits and veggies if I only ate meat at every meal. I don't think I'll ever make it as a full-time vegetarian but I'm doing my best to come as close as I can to it. Last night, I picked salad over steak (I have to confess, the salad had bacon bits..) I'm getting there ;)

mahayana

11-05-2003, 05:40 AM

Binka and Veegan- thanks for speaking here. This is our answer for Rush Limbo- Vegetarian Talk Radio? Now all we need is the corporate sponsors! hah! Or has "save the world" already been rejected as a marketing strategy?

Meeting all you Pet Talkers has been a great experience!

A & M- (I've been tempted to offer you the nickname "aggie" on the Nickname thread)...My absolute favorite pizza is deep-dish, single topping mushroom, from Pizza Hut. Wish that CC's, the 3.95 all-you-can-eat place my wife favors, would make at least one or two without meat. But I would call pizza nearly vegetarian anyway; like chinese cooking there really is very little meat involved. If you read the ingredients, most frozen pizza uses TVP(textured vegetable protien) meat substitutes, instead of the "real thing" in their toppings.

Binka- check the label on a bacon-bits jar, they are TVP too! I love roasted salted sunflower seeds to top my salads. (also pumpkin seeds, but alas they are not available at salad bars).

Veegan- I will come back to the theme of world hunger and our country with most of the world's farmland. Have you ever read Pearl S. Buck's books about famine in China?

Soledad

11-05-2003, 08:10 AM

Mahayana - You are a breath of fresh air in PetTalk. I'm so glad you're with us!:D

Kater

11-05-2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by mahayana
Veegan- I will come back to the theme of world hunger and our country with most of the world's farmland. Have you ever read Pearl S. Buck's books about famine in China?

I LOVE PEARL S. BUCK!!! :D

mahayana

11-05-2003, 06:18 PM

Soledad- glad to see you here. I have enjoyed reading your spirited contributions elsewhere in PT. Would I be wrong to guess that you visited to help balance this out, and instead got blown away by the the powerful feelings here?

I have been !

I really like your Ghandi quote. very pertinent to this thread, too!

I'll tell you how I'd like to change the world, if you'll tell me how you'd like to change the world. Deal?

2kitties

11-05-2003, 06:25 PM

not to send this thread soaring into another direction (but that is what we do best, isn't it.)

But. I'd like to make a dish for a girls' tv night- 2 vegetarians, 2 carnivores. My idea is to do some sort of baked dish, like a lasagna/or parmesan thing. Maybe some kind of eggplant parmesan on one side of the caserole dish/chicken on the other.
Anyway, something I can make half and half.
My favorite is eggplant. Anybody want to share a good idea and recipe with me? Or maybe we shoudl just start a recipe thread over in general...

Soledad

11-05-2003, 06:28 PM

Mahayana -

I would like to see people become more aware and to realize that we are all connected to each other. I think so much could be solved if we realized that what effects another effects us, and that we cannot succeed while others are miserable or failing.

But that's just lil' ole me. ;)

mahayana

11-05-2003, 07:53 PM

Two more great responses!

Two Kitties- I have a simple eggplant recipe:

cut one large eggplant in thick slices (`3/4")
coat with flour that has been salted and peppered
fry until brown in hot vegetagle oil
arrange the mostly cooked slices on the bottom of a pyrex 8x12 2"tall dish ( or brownie pan, casserole, etc.)
cover with italian-seasoned tomato sauce
top with shredded mozzarella, and bake in medium oven until cheese melts (15-20 min)

Soledad- my thinking is the same. I think awareness of inter-relatedness will eventually erode the cultural and political boundaries that divide people and foster irrational hostilities.

All carbon-based life forms are related (we all share identical RNA), and there is no evidence that life exists anywhere but here. I hope we don't blow it, because humanity has a higher purpose than being the top of the food chain and multiplying.

binka_nugget

11-06-2003, 12:25 AM

:D I just ordered a vegetarian starter kit off a site because I'd really like to learn more and *possibly* become a vegetarian one day...Thanks for all the info in this thread.

Kater

11-06-2003, 12:30 AM

Wonderful Ashley! I got one of those too when I first started out. It will prove very helpful!

bisi.cat

11-06-2003, 02:54 AM

I usually avoid posting at the "Doghouse", because often controversial discussions lead to nowhere...BUT however this thread is so inspiring different...no hot discussions...it's just as peaceful as the intention of becoming a vegetarian...
I really like your approach mahayana, and I think this is really the only way to open up the eyes to become a vegetarian...the peacable way!!!

I am a Vegetarian for some years and I was happy to learn that only from that example my 10-year-old niece made up her mind to become a vegetarian, too...there's no persuasion or threat by cruel pictures etc. needed, instead just be an example...and you've done that wonderfully, Mahayana!

This is really a good thread!!!

mahayana

11-06-2003, 06:50 AM

(in deep Elvis voice)" Thank you...thank you very much!"

Binka- please tell us what's in that "starter kit". Does it have alfalfa seeds, and a screen to fit a canning jar lid?

I've been meaning to mention sprouts, an inexpensive and fun way to get the freshest, best tasting vegetables. And a great addition to the "raw foods diet", another variation on vegetarianism that is appealing in many ways.

All of life depends on a mysterious process called photosynthesis; when we eat anything, the energy we take from it is the energy of sunlight!

Just a thought...

Bisi.cat- I would hope you will share plenty of dietary info with your neice. I doubt that anorexia is any more common in vegetarians than in the general population, but young girls seem to be the ones that hurt their bodies this way.

The daily requirement of protein our government recommends is about 2 ounces (48 grams?), and growing young people may need more. Also plenty of calcium for those bones! Lots of restrictive diets can cause harm, (I'm thinking now of a sweet slender young man whose religious transformation led him to macrobiotics. He looked like a big marshmallow due to eating so much starch, fat and sugar, before he was hospitalized).

If she is still eating eggs and dairy, no problem. If not, sufficient green, leafy vegetables for calcium, and sufficient legumes for protein, and a vitamin pill with B vitamins are needed.

binka_nugget

11-06-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by mahayana
Binka- please tell us what's in that "starter kit". Does it have alfalfa seeds, and a screen to fit a canning jar lid?

I'm not sure but I'll be sure to tell you once I receive it.

veegan

11-08-2003, 10:48 PM

"I will come back to the theme of world hunger and our country with most of the world's farmland. Have you ever read Pearl S. Buck's books about famine in China?"

no I have not. :O I guess I should check them out eh?? kate you too? any book in particular you guys recommend?

and binka- just out of curiosity, where did you get your veggie starter kit? I know peta has one, and Ive seen a couple others, and a few vegan ones out there too. vegan outreach (link in my sig!) has the best vegan info packs that I've seen.

all the "starter kits" Ive seen are just like, booklets with info. no seeds. lol though thatd be a great idea! :D hehe But yeah kate, same here! the info and advice they provide is really wonderful and helpful for beginners.

veegan

11-08-2003, 11:08 PM

"I would like to see people become more aware and to realize that we are all connected to each other. I think so much could be solved if we realized that what effects another effects us, and that we cannot succeed while others are miserable or failing."

"my thinking is the same. I think awareness of inter-relatedness will eventually erode the cultural and political boundaries that divide people and foster irrational hostilities.

All carbon-based life forms are related (we all share identical RNA), and there is no evidence that life exists anywhere but here. I hope we don't blow it, because humanity has a higher purpose than being the top of the food chain and multiplying."

well said you two, I agree. this reminds me of my environmental science class. each week we have a different topic that we discuss, and last week was about the endangered species act. I learned about how the law is extremely biased, and it holds species such as certain mammals as more desirable and therefore more important to save than say, species of invertebrae. and some people believe that it is a waste of time/money/energy/whatever to worry about saving species that we know little to nothing about. It just makes me so angry. Just because a species of fly doesnt appear to have any benefit to humans, does not deem it unworthy of saving! GRR. Its so selfish and ignorant. I mean first of all, if humans werent here throwing everything off balance we probably wouldnt have so many creatures becoming endangered and extinct. Plus who are we to decide who or what is more worthy of life!?! :mad: And secondly, as you two said, everything is linked. The extinction of one species can lead to extinction of another and so on and so on. Not to mention all the other affects it will have on the ecosystem and all that. I mean it just goes on and on. And I remember learning in high school about all these species of carnivorous flowers that are going extinct because they are so highly developed to feed on one kind of insect and when these insects become threatened, so does the flower.

Oy.

IttyBittyKitty

11-09-2003, 08:03 AM

I am proud of everyone for discussing this topic in a mature, intelligent and un-confrontational manner, given the recent flame wars that have taken place on this board. Can I say, without offending anyone, that I believe that this thread is so peaceful is because we vegetarians generally are at peace with ourselves, with others and with the world around us.

I think that sums up why we are vegetarians - because we have an invisible connection with the world around us and the creatures in it, human and animal alike. This is how I am able to live harmoniously with a "carnivore" who eats almost no vegetables at all, lol.

I do not eat white meat or red meat. I do consume some dairy foods, but very little as they tend to make me sick. I also eat some seafood such as prawns and a little fish. Why? Because if I try to be a "perfect" vegetarian, I am more likely to fall off the wagon. If I allow a little "traffic infringement" like eating a little bit of fish, then I quash any desire to go back to the old ways. The desire would not be borne of craving, rather laziness as Australia offers very little in terms of meat alternatives and I hate soy with a passion (except soya sauce, yummy).

What I have discovered?
1) Mushrooms are YUMMY YUMMY YUMMY AND MORE YUMMY
2) There are great vegetarian soups out there. My faves are the Velish series (they are suitable for vegans also) and some of the Campbells vegie varieties. Five minutes prep time is great for those of us who work 50 hour weeks.
3) My fave meat substitutes are veggie patties. Hungry Jacks makes a disgustingly unhealthy, but delicious, veggie burger. Macca's version is a little lest tasty but much healthier.
4) Although the supermarkets don't offer much for us vegoes, many restaurants make FANTASTIC veggie dishes
5) Buy a wok if you don't already have one, stir fry vegies are fantastic
6) You can still eat heaps of junk food if you are a vegoe, but you are missing out on the number 1 cholesterol source so you are better off than many omnivores.
7) Slowly, but surely, I am beginning to lose weight and feel healthier. The thing that's slowing it down is the fact, as mentioned above, that I can still eat junk food!
8) Mmmm, Subway veggie subs

HAS ANYONE GOT SOME DIET TIPS FOR A VEGETARIAN WHO WANTS MEALS ON THE RUN??

Why am I a vegitarian?

I became a vegetarian to save the 80-odd animals that I would have otherwise eaten this year.
.
I became a vegetarian so that I would be another little brick in the ever-growing wall of defence against the rising tide of animal cruetly.

I became a vegetarian because I think it hypocritial to love animals as I do, yet allow their exploitation and torture.

I became a vegetarian because I'm of Polish descent, and am deeply ashamed that a death camp like Auschwitz could exist in my family's homelands. I am equally against the "death camps" called abbatoirs that continue to exist in almost every city in the world.

I became a vegetarian because I see no need to eat something that adds little or no nutritional value to my diet.

I became a vegatarian because the very thought of eating meat makes me gag.

mahayana

11-09-2003, 09:14 AM

Salutations, IBC!

That was a great post, very heart-felt and thoughtful!

It's hard to find peace in a world so full of so many terrible and appalling conditions. If eating a certain way helps, or reminds you to try to help find solutions, i say go for it!

Many Christians fast one day each week to keep those without any food in their thoughts.

The comment about living harmoniously with a carnivore made me think how eskimos live with a basically all-meat diet. Humans are certainly adaptible!

I have spent a lot of time thinking about what a "natural" diet would be, what humans have eaten most of their existence as a species. I think it was mainly raw foods (as we didn't have fire until after the last ice-age), and probably insects as our closest animal relatives eat them. And all vertebrate land animals evolved from fish, fish eat other fish, so seafood is something else our bodies are designed to process.

What I eat while driving is cucumber slices, those little peeled carrots, apples and bananas, trail-mix type stuff.

Again, thanks everyone for all the time and thoughtful effort you have spent here.

mahayana

11-26-2003, 05:42 PM

I mentioned earlier a recipe friends make every Thanksgiving. This is not their recipe, but one from the internet.

GLUTEN ROAST
about 8+ servings
2 c vital wheat gluten
1/4 c unhulled sesame tahini or nut butter
2 tablespoons Nutritional yeast
2 teaspoons Cumin powder
1 teaspoon Ground coriander
1 teaspoon Garlic powder
1/2 teaspoons Onion powder
1/2 teaspoons Salt
1/2 teaspoons Black pepper
1 cup broth or water
1 tablespoon organic blackstrap molasses
3 tablespoons Tamari (soy sauce or Bragg's Amino)
1 tablespoon Vegetable oil
1 1/4 cup Additional water
1/4 c Cider vinegar
1 tablespoon olive oil or Dairy-free margarine
1 Clove garlic, sliced in half

Cut tahini or nut butter into gluten flour. Stir in nutritional yeast, cumin powder, coriander, garlic powder, onion powder, salt and pepper, mixing well.

Mix tamari and oil with a cup of broth, stir into gluten mix. Knead into a rough ball (about 10 minutes by hand, or 6 minutes in a bread machine or food processor).

To let the gluten develop, set aside 15-20 minutes (or overnight in the refrigerator, covered or in a large plastic baggie.)

When ready to cook, place into a slow cooker (crock pot) that has been oiled or sprayed with non-stick spray.

Mix additional hot water (1 & 1/4 c), molasses and cider vinegar and pour over gluten.

Top gluten ball with olive oil or margarine and garlic halves.

Cook covered in slow cooker on low setting for 5-7 hours (It definitely takes the longer time if cold to start with). If it begins to cook dry, add additional water/tamari mix.

Slice thinly and serve as you would roast beef. Refrigerate in cooking liquid to save, makes great sandwich strips or fajitas or stir-fry pieces.

Happy Thanksgiving!:)

veegan

11-26-2003, 06:03 PM

yum! I cant wait for tofurky tomorrow!!!!!!

mugsy

11-26-2003, 06:14 PM

Thanks! That sounds like something Mike might like. I don't care for black strap molasses and can't STAND soy sauce, so he'll eat it alone!! lol

babolaypo65

11-26-2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by veegan
yum! I cant wait for tofurky tomorrow!!!!!!

we had a tofurkey last year. It was pretty good! This year we're just doing all the side dishes.:)

veegan

11-26-2003, 06:27 PM

:D yeah, I went to my friend's house last year, she and her boyfriend are vegan too, and her mom made us tofurky, we had vegan mashed potatoes, and all these other goodies. AND her sister even made us vegan pumpkin pie! it was so good! and they found vegan whipped cream too! but that wasnt too great. haha so anyways, we're doing it again this year, but this year her sister is vegetarian too! :D

binka_nugget

11-26-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by veegan
and binka- just out of curiosity, where did you get your veggie starter kit? I know peta has one, and Ive seen a couple others, and a few vegan ones out there too. vegan outreach (link in my sig!) has the best vegan info packs that I've seen. [/color]

I honestly can't remember lol... :p It should be here soon *I hope*

veegan

11-26-2003, 07:30 PM

yay! i hope so too

mahayana

11-26-2003, 07:41 PM

Good to hear from you folks again!

I just had a call from my older brother, and wonder of wonders, he has become a vegetarian! I never knew the idea had crossed his mind, but he'll be walking the mile and 1/2 over here tomorrow to visit with us.

How about that!:D

Another link for 10,000 vegetarian recipes:

www.vegsource.com

mahayana

11-27-2003, 09:40 AM

This is a little out of left field, but in the course of researching the question of blood acidity for the Atkins Diet thread I found something that surprised me.

Michel Abehsera, the author of "Zen Macrobiotic Cooking", has a chapter on cooking fish in the follow-up book "Cooking For Life, a Guide for The Well-being of Humankind."

"In our home, fish is rarely seen...it has been three months since we had our last bite of fish. For a time we ate it frequently."

Macrobiotics tries to balance yin and yang (acid and alkaline) foods in the diet, and has held that eating meat makes the blood acidic and that this is unhealthy.

just a footnote about vegetarians and fish!