Pinch Collars?

[mpoier]

Hey guys, what are your thoughts on pinch collars to keep from pulling on the leash? CB hatest the halti and I have tried and tried to get him to get used to it.......

I've heard both good and bad things, what do the pettalkers think about them?

:confused:

[Cincy'sMom]

I am in a minority here who do use pinch collars. I think they are a last resort and that you need to be shown how to correctly use them, but I don't think they are cruel. I also think they are a temporary solution, to use in addition to postive rewards training, not a quick fix for life (if that makes any sense)

We tried several training methods/collars with our dog Cincy, and found the pinch collar to be the only thing that got her walking correctly. We no longer use it all the time with her, only when she needs a reminder or when I am walking all 3 dogs alone. Between the 3, that is 180 lbs of dog a the other end of the leash, and if they want to go, they could. A squirel or a cat running in the path could be enough to make them forget their training and I need to make sure I have control of them for their safety and to be a goodneighbor.

If you have any questions about them, feel free to PM me.

[mugsy]

Prongs are the only thing that Mike and I use. When I got Dio back from the shelter he was unmanageable. I bought him a prong on Tuesday before I took him to Illinois and he was great. He walked calmly next to me after 2 corrections. Also, when he got to Minnesota to his new home he went after her dog and she grabbed the collar and yanked and he backed off and has not done it again. It does NOT hurt the dog as long as it is fitted properly and is A LOT safer than choke collars because that can damage their esophogus.

[CJ7Boomer]

if pulling on the leash is your problem you should try a gentle leader- they work great. ive heard bad things about pinch collars- theyre not for every dog.

[mugsy]

I have also heard lots bad about the Gentle Leader. My mom's dog got down right mean with it on and went after my dad. Just personal choice. Prongs just look mean, they really aren't. I am telling you this at the risk of death (lol) for telling you, Mike, my husband, will not give anything or do anything to our dogs without eating it or wearing it himself. He wore a prong and let me yank it and he said it is just slightly uncomfortable, just enough to no want it again, and that was skin to prong not fur to prong. Just FYI.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by mugsy
I have also heard lots bad about the Gentle Leader. My mom's dog got down right mean with it on and went after my dad. Just personal choice. Prongs just look mean, they really aren't. I am telling you this at the risk of death (lol) for telling you, Mike, my husband, will not give anything or do anything to our dogs without eating it or wearing it himself. He wore a prong and let me yank it and he said it is just slightly uncomfortable, just enough to no want it again, and that was skin to prong not fur to prong. Just FYI.

I too have put a prong on myself. It was just slightly uncomfortable. Also one needs to remember that the prong collar is mostly a self correcting collar. By that I mean that if the dog lunges ahead the person does nothing and the collar makes the correction all by itself. You really shouldn't have to make a correction with it (ie. pull back on it with a lot of force) like you would with a choke chain.
Incidentally I've also put a choke chain on myself and given myself a proper correction with it. Both collars were preferable to the time I put an electric collar on. Ye-ouch!!!!!!!! And that was on the low setting.
I prefer to train with a buckle collar first, and if that doesn't work then a chain (used properly). Oh and treats are always a major part of my training as well.

[binka_nugget]

Wow..I think I may give it a try if the martingale doesn't work. I've tried the halti, choke chain, regular nylon collar, sporn anti-pulling harness, regular harnesses...NOTHING will get kai to walk properly. Food will work to a certain degree but once he sees something he really wants, not even food can stop him from yanking my arm off.

[mugsy]

Put a prong on and he won't do it anymore! :) I remember when I put one on Jazzy to take her for a walk and she hardly left my side...people were very impressed. And, it won't take many times before he gets the clue.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by binka_nugget
Wow..I think I may give it a try if the martingale doesn't work. I've tried the halti, choke chain, regular nylon collar, sporn anti-pulling harness, regular harnesses...NOTHING will get kai to walk properly. Food will work to a certain degree but once he sees something he really wants, not even food can stop him from yanking my arm off.

Just make sure that you work with someone with some experience when it comes to fitting one. Also remember that the smaller the links the more harsh the pinch is.
When you used the chain, did you know how to give a proper correction?

[Logan]

Properly used, I think pinch collars are wonderful training tools. We resorted to one with our Honey so that Helen (my young daughter) could handle her, herself, in obedience training. I liked it much better than a choke chain for Honey's long fur. Honey is a Golden Retriever. And it was definitely more effective. Proper use is key with choke chains and prong (I like that name much better) collars. Proper fit is also very important. We don't even use it anymore, just leash her up on her regular nylon leash and collar, but that's because she learned how to walk properly, very early on.

[wolfsoul]

Leather uses a prong collar, and it works great! It worked wonders on Timber too! They aren't uncomfortable AT ALL unless the dog pulls, which is the point of course! You want a puller to feel discomfort when they pull. Some people will tell you not to use them because they cause damage to the throat -- but the damage is only slightly worse than what a regular collar might cause, and not serious at all. :)

It's a great teaching method, give it a try! :)

[slleipnir]

When I had Josie in obedience, it was recommened you use a pinch. I did. Was amazed with how well Josie would listen..but, I'm convinced now that it can hurt the dog in some way, so I bought a gentle leader (I believe they are different from halti's??) and was also amazed that she listened so well, AND it doesn't hurt her. I know even with the flat collor with a pulling dog, it can't be too good..Neither of my dogs like the gentle leader too much..I'm thinking they'll get use to it :)

[binka_nugget]

Originally posted by Shelteez2
When you used the chain, did you know how to give a proper correction?
I only used the chain for some training. I'd walk with him then when he pulled ahead, I'd quickly turn around. He was getting better so I decided to use it during a walk but then the moment he saw another dog, he decided that pulling was better than feeling comfertable.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by binka_nugget
I only used the chain for some training. I'd walk with him then when he pulled ahead, I'd quickly turn around. He was getting better so I decided to use it during a walk but then the moment he saw another dog, he decided that pulling was better than feeling comfertable.

Have you ever been to any obedience classes?

A slip collar is used to give corrections to a dog. There is a right and a wrong way to put it on too.
A slip collar does not work by using it to become and stay tight on a dog's neck. This improper use of it is why people refer to it as a choke chain.
A proper correction in the example you gave would have been to push your hand with the leash forward to create some slack in the leash and then quickly "pop" your hand out to the side and release. This delivers a correction across the back of the dogs neck, not it's throat.

I truthfully don't ever use physical corrections like that anymore, I've found better ways to train.
You can PM me if you're interested in any tips I have to get him walking better. *S*

[binka_nugget]

Yes, we've been to obedience classes. Honestly, I was very disappointed with the lack of response we got from them. It was more like a "hand me the money and get 8 meaning-less sessions with us" sort of thing. Luckily, I taught Kai every other "basic command" succesfully, just walking is a problem. We're going to another class on the 18th with someone who runs a gsd rescue here so HOPEFULLY, she'll be able to give me some pointers.

I checked the collar on myself to see if it was on right. It would snap and release. I double checked in a dog book just to make sure.

I decided to call it quits with the "choke chain" though. I'm sure there are far better methods out there...but I will try the prong collar if all other methods fail.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by binka_nugget
We're going to another class on the 18th with someone who runs a gsd rescue here so HOPEFULLY, she'll be able to give me some pointers.


Awesome! I love obedience. It's a hobby of mine.
Do you think you'd ever like to compete in obedience?
It's a lot of fun.

[binka_nugget]

Oh I'd love to! I don't know if Kai will be a great obedience dog though. He still has alot of "spunk" if you know what I mean lol. Kaedyn may be great at it though. His past owners didn't teach him much so we're starting from scratch. Actually, the only reason why we're going into basic obedience again is because we want to "refine" some of Kai's skills before heading into agility classes lol. I can't wait!

[Shelteez2]

You should try it. It's tons of fun! Spunky dogs are often the best and most exciting to work with *S*
Agility is loads of fun too. I need to get back into it.

[aly]

Before I post my opinion, I'd like to say that I haven't read any responses to this thread. The reason is I don't want anybody to think my response is a personal attack on them if they use these types of aversive training methods.

In the training classes I teach and all of the training classes I assist in, along with all of the techniques we use at the shelter, we firmly believe in positive reinforcement training. Instead of jerking the dog around, we use luring, shaping, and operant conditioning of behaviors. We successfully leash train exuberant dogs using absolutely no negative corrections. It does take slightly longer and may involve a little more effort on your part, but it is totally worth the time and commitment.

Choke chains and prong collars are commonly used incorrectly and can cause major harm to the dog. Also, using such rough training methods can cause some dogs to become aggressive. Also, if used on a fearful dog, it can cause the dog to become even more fearful.

Training should be a positive experience for you and your dog. It is also a bonding experience. I just don't know how you can bond with your dog while yanking its neck around on some mideval looking torture device.

I am a big fan of the Gentle Leader, the Sporn no pull harness, and the SENSE-ation harness. These harnesses - especially the Gentle Leader - do take some getting used to. You can't slap one on a dog and expect to take it for a walk the first time its on. But if fitted correctly and introduced correctly, it is HIGHLY successful.

So in summary, I am 100% against prong collars. I think there is always another, more humane, option to train.

[clara4457]

Have to agree with Aly on this one. My first concern is always that people will use prong collars incorrectly. I also believe that even though prong collars can be effective to some degree - current studies have proven that positive reinforcement has longer lasting effects than negative reinforcement (which a prong collar is). Gentle Leaders on the other hand are more about getting your dog to focus on you rather than what is two blocks ahead.

I also believe that any collar should be used as a tool only to aid training the desired behaviour. I used the Gentle Leader on Leo to help train walking nicely on a leash - I still used commands and treats and a clicker to reinforce the desired behaviour.

If you do use a prong collar (your choice obviously), it should be fitted and demonstrated by a professional trainer. JMHO

[cloverfdx]

not having any personal experience with a pinch/prong collar i cannot comment on them (although i think they look awful JMHO),

but i have to agree with Aly and Clara on this one there are alot safer dog training methods to use these days without having to "choke" and "correct" a dog. when i started obedience classes with Clover we were always told to give sharp corrections often consequently i know have a terrible lagger when heeling and are struggling through novice obedience trials (im going to give it up as soon as we get that first title), i have now resorted to clicker traing with our dogs and will always clicker train from now on.

oh i also used to use a halti on clover and that worked wonders, we dont have to use it anymore (unless she see's a cat) :)

OT- i saw a lady walking her lil JRT oneday and she had a correction collar on as a choker, when i mentioned to her how to correctly fit the chain she snapped and said the dog was fine and if she had it on any other way the dog would escape:rolleyes: and the chain was about twice as long as it should be :mad:

[thunderdog]

walking my thunder was practically impossible without the pinch collar. It's never hurt him the slightest bit, but as soon as it slips over his head he goes into "good dog" mode.

[ramanth]

I don't think a prong collar is good for every breed. I'd never want to see a prong collar on a yorkie.

Our neighbors had a malamute that was unmanagable without the prongs.

Like Cincy's mom and Mugsy... if it's used as a training too and used correctly, I think it can help when all other methods are exhausted.

[mpoier]

Thanks to everyone for your informative information, opinions and tips for training!

Ceebers has been through 3 training classes (lure and reward based training) by an excellent professional. He was the one that suggested the prong collar, and is willing to help me with it.

I have to say that when I purchased it last night, I was very nervous and felt guilty???? Not sure why......I guess they look worse than they are....

When we have put the Halti on Ceebers, some people (obviously non dog owners) thought it was something to completely restrain the dog and thought they looked cruel! I guess everyone has their own opinion, and I totally respect that.

We'll see how this goes, I will know instantly if its going to work or not and I am in no way going to hinder my relationship with my boy, that's for sure!

Thanks again guys!
M:D

[clara4457]

As a side note - I would like to say I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Even though prong collars are a controversial topic in some circles, this thread contained different opinions and the reasons for those opinions without resorting to any name-calling, hurt feelings or misunderstandings.

And even though I don't like using prong collars, I respect their choice whether or not to use one.

[mpoier]

You know what, I loved this thread too, very non threatening and just goes to show that us Pettalkers are out here to help each other out! :)

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by mpoier
I have to say that when I purchased it last night, I was very nervous and felt guilty???? Not sure why......I guess they look worse than they are....



I felt the same way (guilty/unsure), and we started using the collar much the same way...in Cincy's third class under the training/advice of a well respected trainer. they even allowed us to take one home and try it before we purchased one.

Good luck!

[mpoier]

Hey everyone! Well, CB passed his last obedience training class! Yipppeee, now he is going to train to be a Canine Good Citizen! :)


Anyway, my trainer told me that CB is not a good candidate for a prong collar. He noticed in class last night that there was a high chance that he could become aggressive on the leash.

Sooo, I'm back to Petco again, this time I guess I'll buy a harness!

:rolleyes:

[ramanth]

Silly Ceebers. Those dogs sometime... ;) :D

Best of luck with the harness!