Lip Fold Pyoderma?

[Sudilar]

Anyone know anything about Lip Fold Pyoderma or pyroderma? Killian may have the source of his mouth problems!

[tatsxxx11]

I'm on the hunt Sue. I hope that means it's better news! :confused:

[tatsxxx11]

Here's a photo. It's a bacterial skin infection, ususally staph, and is commonly found in hot spot areas. Text info. coming.

http://www.vetinfo.com/hotspot2.jpg

[tatsxxx11]

Found it! Hope this posts!! If not, I'll just copy and paste the article.

2001



Lip fold pyoderma in Golden


Question: Dr. Richards:

I have a 10 year old golden retriever. From time to time over the past 5
years or so, she's developed a bad, rotten fish type of smell on the outside
of her mouth, under one of her bottom lips, in the fur area. Her fur in
that area becomes a little sticky and a little red and seems to bother her a
little. I usually clean it up with the chlorhexaderm oral solution and put
some anti-biotic ointment on it and it usually clears up within a few days.

Any ideas what this could be from? Her teeth are in good shape and she gets
them brushed every other day or so, so I don't think it's from dental
disease.

Thanks. Vanessa


Answer: Vanessa-

It sounds like you are describing a problem that is referred to as "lip
fold pyoderma". This is infection in folds of the lip that usually occurs
on the lower lips, often right at the point that the upper canine tooth
touches the skin of the lower lip when the mouth is closed.

There is no problem with using chlorhexidine gel or benzoyl peroxide
shampoo to control these infections, if topical treatment will work.
Sometimes oral antibiotics are necessary to get control of these
infections. If you find that this problem gets worse over time, or if you
get tired of treating it intermittently, reconstructive surgery of the
lower lip (cheiloplasty) will usually resolve the problem and may even be
less expensive than repeatedly using medications, over time. This is not a
technically difficult surgery and most general veterinary practices can do
this. This problem is rarely related to the teeth, other than occurring
where the upper canines touch the lips in many cases.

Hope this helps some.

Mike Richards, DVM
1/3/2001

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[Sudilar]

Thanks, Sandra! It seems that the skin is ok, just the lips themselves are crusty. To me it seems like there's something going on in that area, though. Is there something called GSD Pyroderma? (not pyoderma)I've inquired on the GSD BB, too, cause I think I read something about that there. I didn't pay attention because I thought it was inside his mouth not outside. We may have hit on something. Or maybe he has both (sigh)!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Sue, have you looked in http://www.vetinfo.com/dogindex.html
I did see some information on Pyoderma.
Jackie

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Jackie ]

[tatsxxx11]

Hi guys. Jackie, that was the site from which I took the first info. I posted. It's a great site! Sue, I DID find info. specifically on GSD pyoderma. I can tell you, being a nurse, that there is no such thing as PYRO-derma. (Pyro being the prefix for hot) I think PYOderma is what you are looking for. Did Killian get diagnosed with this condition? What made you think of it? It certainly does appear to be a lot more easily treated than girardia. Here's the info. I found on GSD pyoderma. (The prefix, pyo, means moist...derma...skin) Pyoderma can occur as a generalized skin infection, or, more specifically, in the lip fold area. It is, in that case, not confined to the "furry area" but actually in the folds of the lip itself. The info. I found on GSD pyoderma seems to be a more generalized skin condition. However, this does not mean that Killian's form of the condition (GSD pyoderma) could not be limited to the mouth and lip area. Hope this helps, and I'm not confusing you!!

German-Shepherd Pyoderma
EJ Rosser
Michigan State Univ Coll Vet Med Dept Small Anim Clin Sci E Lansing,MI 48824 USA
Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian20,7 (JUL 1998) 831

German shepherd pyoderma (GSP) is a unique, recurrent or refractory deep pyoderma that is characterized by a pruritus (that mean pussy, Sue) condition which may progress to affect multiple regions of the body and become a generalized skin disease. The underlying disease processes that predispose animals to GSP may include flea allergy dermatitis, atopic dermatitis, food allergy, cell-mediated immunodeficiency, or hypothyroidism. GSP may have an inherited component and is occasionally idiopathic (meaning no known cause, Sue) in nature. A recent prospective study evaluated several parameters in 12 patients that were affected with GSP. The results suggested that GSP should be considered a disease caused by multiple underlying conditions rather than a skin disorder caused by a single defect. Management requires a thorough and.systematic approach to the investigation of each patient for the possible triggering disease processes. The specific treatment for each underlying disease identified should be initiated with the objective of resolving the recurrent nature of the deep pyoderma. The initial supportive medical treatment usually requires at least 8 weeks of continuous systemic antibiotic therapy and medicated baths while the clinician attempts to determine each underlying disease process involved in the particular case of GSP

Give a little more info. if you have it. Killian, I love you!! Aunt Sandra

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[Sudilar]

Thanks, Sandra and Jackie! I think we really may have something here. Since the day I found him at the shelter, he has been having immune system problems. This could be one more. I read over the "eosinophyllic gingivitis" prognosis and I think that maybe he may have also had this lip fold pyoderma problem, too. Every time he had his teeth pulled (all six of them) they cleaned up his folds, too. I wonder why they didn't think of this problem with his lips to be related. I know his liver disease can't control bacteria so that's why it can run rampant. I've been checking his lips and I think we're going to visit the vet to see if he has this. Someone mentioned something about crusty lips on the GSD BB during the Christmas holidays and it just didn't register with my brain at the time because I was only cursory checking the messages, but then Killian's lips are getting crusty and his breath is starting up again and 2 + 2 must be adding up! The "several underlying causes" may be adding up to this or it may be one of the "many underlying causes." :confused: This is really something I have to look into. I'm going to check the GSD BB and e-mail the person who mentioned this condition!
Thank you so much for the info. I think Killi really may have this or a form of something like this.

Love and slurps (ok, we'll hold the slurps 'cause of the lip thing ha!) Killian and Sue

[tatsxxx11]

Pleasssssssseee!! Slurps are most appreciated at anytime! Especially from my Killi Man! I've been exposed to so much working in a hospital all these years, I'm immune from everything! LOL!! I LOVE YOU KILLI MAN!!!!!! Please now, updates!! I'm so psyched that you may have hit upon something here Sue!! Love, Sandra

[Sudilar]

Sandra! It does look like this!
http://www.homestead.com/scout0/files/head.jpg

Where the red is, that's the infection. Killian doesn't have it on his nose, though.

[ January 02, 2002: Message edited by: Sudilar ]

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Sandra, wow you are fast, great information, I hope you got it and it can be at least controlled. Sue, good luck with Killi, maybe this will be one thing that can be taken care of, Please let us know what the Vet says.
Jackie

[tatsxxx11]

Yes, Sue, I think this just may be the thing that's making dear Killi so miserable. I can't wait to hear what the vet says. I wonder why no one else ever thought of it! And with his liver compromised, it so much harder for him to fight it own his own :( Please, give him a big hug for me Sue. Jackie, you're pretty quick on the keyboard yourself!! :) And, as great minds think alike, we both went to the same vet site!! :D Give those crazy Schnauzer kids a big hug too!

[Sudilar]

Thank you, DRS. Sandra and Jackie!! You two are quicker than greased lightening (whatever that is!!)! I'm going to call my vet and see if she's in today. I'll try to catch this pyoderma before it gets too bad. Thanks, again!!

Big slurps and hugs! Killian and Sue

[Sudilar]

Got an appointment at 4:30! Wish Killi luck!

[lizbud]

Sue,
Here's wishing you & Killian the VERY BEST
of luck at the vets today.I'm sure by now you will have a ton of questions for him/her..
Prayers & GOOD WISHES from Buddy & Liz.

[tatsxxx11]

Good Luck to one of our bestest buds. Paws crossed and best wishes for some good news! Go Killi!!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Good Luck Killi, you tha man, if you can't do it, nobody can. Will be anxious to hear how the appt goes, and the very best of luck to you both.
Jackie

[Logan]

We will all be anxious to hear what the vet said, Sue. I'm beginning to think that you, Sandra and Jackie need your honorary veterinary degrees! Its pretty bad when the patient (or patient's guardian) is finding things that the vet hasn't considered! :D

[TheAntiPam]

Originally posted by Logan:
<STRONG>... Its pretty bad when the patient (or patient's guardian) is finding things that the vet hasn't considered! :D</STRONG>

Maybe we should think of this as helping a member of our pack! Even the best trained and most compassionate doctor has to move on to the next patient or emergency.

Of course, if your doctor (or vet) seems to miss the mark often, get a new doc. But don't be afraid to speak up about health issues. You CAN make a difference!!!

[lizbud]

I think both patient & Doctor (Vet), have
to be involved enough to help each other.
It's "our job" as Guardians to get as
involved with remedies to a problem as the
Doctor. After all we are their voice, they
are our furkids.. Prayers and Positive
thoughts for Killian !!!
Logan, I see how ironic it sounds, just
wanted to suggest another way of looking
at it. Hugs to Honey & Lilly !!! Liz

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[AmberLee]

Dear Killian,

Crossed paws that all goes well at the white coats.

Purrs and head-bonkies,
Cassy and Livvy

[Sudilar]

OK, I had a long answer here for you and I lost it!!!!! :eek:

Yes, the Kill-Boy has Lip Fold Pyoderma! It is unusual in GSDs, but of course my Killian would get it! We caught it early and we're going to try and treat it with meds, antibiotics, ointment and warm water compresses. However, if that doesn't work or it keeps coming back, he will need surgery. It would be like a face lift or lip-tuck! Does The Joker come to mind? Ha.
This can be related to his immune system problems.
Doctors Sandra and Jackie were right on the money!
After Killi finishes his antibiotics for his liver, we will start a 7 day regimen of another antibiotic. How can any bacteria dare to live on this guy?
So, thank you for the help in diagnosing this disease. Thanks also for the best wishes and thumbs up!

Love, Sue and Old Crusty Lips

Oh, yeah, and I am so glad that I switched to the lady vet that I have now. She knows a lot and if she doesn't know (cause sometimes Killi is not your normal dog) she will call and find out things for me. I feel that I can ask her anything without feeling stupid! She listens to everything I tell her not like the other vet who didn't listen resulting in Killi's liver starting to shut down.
:mad:

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Sudilar ]

[Sudilar]

Sandra, he will be taking 625mg of Clavamox twice a day.

I talked to the lady on the GSD board whose dog had GSD pyoderma and she said she had to take her dog to Tufts to get a diagnosis. No one knew what it was. This was four years ago and the treatment my vet is following is what she was told to do and it cleared up never to return again. She couldn't remember the name of the antibiotic, though.
I will be contacting another GSD board member to report what I found because her dog has the same symptoms, too! Her vet appointment is Monday.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Sudilar ]

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Oh Sue that is good news, it sounds like you have a wonderful Vet who is willing to listen. The medicine should do wonders for him. We will be praying and thinking about him, please give him a smacker and a hug from Daisy, Perry and me.
Jackie

[tatsxxx11]

Dear Sue! I'm SO happy to hear that finally you have a definitive diagnosis that hopefully, will respond to the medication. As the article stated, should Killi need the surgery, it is described as a realtively minor procedure. Though, with all he has been through already, nothing else he should have to endure should be described as minor :(
And I'm just as happy to hear that you have found a vet who will listen, and when uncertain, will try to gather the necessary info. to treat Killi properly. Doesn't it make a world of difference! And how right you are...how could ANY bug dare to attack our Killi? Crusty or not, I love those Killi smackeroos. So please plant a big one on the site of your choice and tell him how much he is loved from afar!! :) Yea for Killi! Love, Sandra, Cody and Star

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[Logan]

Sue, I was delighted to read that the diagnosis you came up with was correct, and now Killian can get the treatment he needs. Good work!

I believe what I said earlier was totally misunderstood. No one cares for their pets anymore than I do. I think those of you who have "known" me for a while, know that. I just want my vet to be persistent, like Dr. Robinson was about Lilly's fungus. I provide just as much information as I possibly can about what I have observed, internet research, possibilities that are raised because of doing exactly like Sue did, and asking questions of people who might have experienced the same thing.

Sue, I am delighted that you have a vet that will listen to you. That is so important. If we can't relay to them what we have learned, observed, etc, then it IS time to move on to another vet! :)

Killian is in my prayers as always.

Logan

[jennifert]

Sue, I think this is absolutely fabulous news! I wish Killian didn't have to be sick but what a relief to finally know what it is!! I too think we should give out some honorary veterinarian degrees! Good luck with Killian's treatment! I look forward to hearing about his recovery and cure!!

[Stenograsaurus]

I am so glad that your guardians were there for you and were able to help you through this. It's funny that as I was reading this post I thought, well if it's rare, then Killian has it. Then I read that he did. That Killian, he has to be unique, doesn't he? ;) That's what makes him so special though. I'm praying for you, Killian.

[Sudilar]

Another GSD on that BB also has just been diagnosed with lip fold pyoderma, too. I guess it depends on how much lip a dog has and usually the skin on a GSD doesn't fold very much, but of course Killian's does. He does have a huge head and mouth. I wonder if this other GSD does, too? The other GSDs treatment is a little less aggressive. They are just starting out on a medicated shampoo in the area for two weeks first. Then they will go on to the antibiotic therapy. Her vet said that in 10% of the cases, the cause is immune system disorders. HMMMM does this fit or what!

Thank you for all your thoughts, prayers and knowledge, as usual!!!!

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Sudilar ]

[tatsxxx11]

What a wonderful, caring, loving momma you have Killi Man. Sue, I will be praying with all my might that our (may I say "our??") boy will respond to the treatment. Have a nice, quiet weekend Sue. And please, as sweet Logan would say, "love on" those babies for me! :) Hugs, kisses and nite-nite Shi and Killi. Love, Sandra, Cody and Star

[lizbud]

For Sue or Sandra,
From what you know now about lip fold
pyoderma, does this condition only occur
in the lip fold area or can it also be in
the dog's gums or other parts of the mouth?
Thanks for any info you may have. Liz.

P.S. The reason I ask is that Buddy's mouth
problems have never cleared up even after
the surgery .(Vet said is was a tumor on
the gum ) Sometimes it is blood red & other
times it's just pink, but still 'there'.
The Vet gave Bud a RX to help with the swelling of the mass, but also for swelling
in his knee joint.


[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[Sudilar]

Liz, from what I read and observed in Killi's lip and mouth area, it doesn't go into the mouth. He doesn't have any sores inside the mouth. It is on the lip itself and in the folds. The gums part could be gingivitis maybe?

Oh by all means, Aunt Sandra, you may definitely call him "our Killi-Boy". I feel that we all share our furkids on PetTalk! There is so much empathy, sympathy, advice and caring on this BB!! We are family!

[KYS]

Wow! You guys,
I am really impressed.
I think you deserve the Dr. title in
front of your names. lol
Rocky, has a droopy skin fold too.
That food collects etc. I think I will
keep my eye on it.
Maybe that is why he never had sweet
breath.
Keep us posted on Kil

[Sudilar]

Someone on the Dog Health BB sent me this info on Pyoderma:

Mucocutaneous lesions around the lips and corners of the mouth appear as redness and crusting—problems that seem to occur more often in German shepherd dogs. Mucocutaneous pyoderma can be differentiated from immune-mediated skin disorders and nutritional disorders by a skin biopsy, but most cases will respond to topical antibacterial medications, alone or in combination with systemic antibiotics. Recurrence is likely.
Unfortunately, if your dog has a rash, it’s not likely to go away on its own. Your veterinarian may offer antibiotics as the treatment of choice if pyoderma is suspected, but he or she is likely to look for an underlying cause, which could be something as simple as poor grooming, or something as complex as an endocrine disorder that suppresses the immune system. If the skin problem is particularly puzzling or problematic, then a veterinary dermatologist may be consulted.

[tatsxxx11]

Thanks Sue!! It's always a good idea to be "armed" with as much info. as possible! Amazing the amt. of info. you've been able to gather up. What a perplexing condition!!! Prayers are coming that Killi will, once again, prevail in quick order!!! It sounds like this condition might just be (dare I say it)...responsive to treatment??? I know that you and Killi will handle this with the grace and courage you two have always shown when faced with adversity. You go Killi Man!!!! And give your sweet sister Shi some kisses from me!! Love to Sue, Shi and Killi from Sandra, Cody and Star.

[tatsxxx11]

How's the Killi Man doing?????

[Sudilar]

Thank you for asking Aunt Sandra. Killi is on the last day of his 2nd type of antibiotics. I've been putting Neosporin on it, too. His lips aren't as crusty and the smell is better. A few days ago, I tried another med on the lips, but the smell came right back, so I switched back to Neosporin. His appetite is not too bad. So, I guess we are improving. The folds are really deep, so I wouldn't be surprised to have to have surgery some time down the road (if his liver can take it)!

Great big slurps and wags to Aunt Sanda, Star-ski, Cody-cutie, Mr. B, Oliver and Squeekers

Killi (and Shiloh and Sue)

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Sue, glad to hear Killi is doing some better, poor boy, this has been such a long process for him. He is so brave to take on all the things he has been through. He deserves lots of hugs and kisses and you deserve lots of credit for trying to do the best for him.
Jackie

[tatsxxx11]

You're so right, Aunt Jackie!! Sue, I can't tell you how just the mention of Killian's name puts a smile on my face. I know I've said it again and again. But Killi, you are my hero. We hope you all have a good weekend and stay safe, warm and well. Keep up the healing dear boy. Love, Aunt Sandra, Mr. B., Oliver, Star-ski and the Cody ("Do you really think I'm cute") girl!! :) You know, Star's heart beats a little quicker everytime she hears your name!We love you, Shi and your mom lots!!

[Sudilar]

Thank you Aunt Jackie and Aunt Sandra (blush)!

Mom tells me all the time that she's so glad that she got me 'cause who knows what wouldda happened if someone else did (if I even wouldda made it out, death row, you know :( ) I'm still happy and enjoyin' life for now, sose that's good. Mom is onna liver-d BB and it makes her so sad 'cause so many of the other l-d guys are at the end of the battle. I'm doin' good enough for now and we're gonna fight every thing that comes up. BTW, I got weighed and I weigh 90 lbs. Even though I should weigh 110, the nice lady vet said we'll be happy with 90.

Wags and slurps to all and a ;) to sweetie Star-ski

Killi

[AdoreMyDogs]

Hey Killi buddy this is Graham. my moms been keepin me so bizy that i just now had time to talk at ya! i hope you lippie problims stop for good anna dokters tell you that your all better. your mom soundz reely nise. she is reely takin good kare of you to make you all better. you an me, we kame from sim a lar back groundz and its alwaze nise to heer what good mommiez n daddiez us pound pups ended up with. any way i hope ya get and stay better. you are a speshal pup and you are my frend.

your frend Graham.

[Sudilar]

Graham, old buddy! Yeah, it was probly fate that brought us to r ma's and dad's. The day I got 'dopted, ma was called down there to go look at a great pyrenees. Some how she got me! HA U r lucky to have your ma and dad, too. You gots a pretty bad owwie there and look how nice they took carra u, too.

Big high 5s onna paws to ya an yor ma and dad, too!

Killi

[tatsxxx11]

The weekend's coming and we always think of our pal Killi when Fri. rolls around. How ya doin big boy??? Hope and pray that the new treatment is doing it's job! Thinking of you with lots of love. Aunt Sandra, Cody and Star**ShINe**!!

[Sudilar]

Hi, Aunt Sandra, Cody and Star!
I'm doing pretty good. I'm all done with the antibiotics and my lips have cleared up a lot. Mom is still putting Neosporin on me everyday to help keep my crusty lips in check. One thing happened yesterday, though, when my human brother gave me some cheese, I droolled out some blood on the floor. Mom came runnin, but couldn't find anything bleedin on my lips or in my mouth?? I don't know where it came from. :confused: Me and Shiloh had some fun today chasin' each other in the snow. We had a good time!! Hope you guys are all ok! Thank you for thinking of me!

Hugs and slurps, Killi (and Shiloh and Sue)

[tatsxxx11]

Good goin' Killi Man!!:) Maybe the bloody stuff in yer mouf wuz from choppin on some snow or ice??? We do that! Hope you have a nice weekend wif yer fambly and keep feelin well. Slurps, tail wags and butt wiggles!! Love, yer pals, Star**ShINe and Cody Girl!!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Just checking in on Killi and I see Aunt Sandra beat me to it. LOL
Glad he is doing well and getting to play outside in the snow. Keep it up Killi, we're pulling for ya. Give your Mom a hug for being such a good MoM.
Daisy, Perry and me.

[tatsxxx11]

Star says...Go get em KilliMan!!:)

http://www.photogra.com/galleries/34923/curr/6277743_20020119_153343_20020119153343.jpg

[Sudilar]

Star, Cody, Daisy, Perry, et al........and Graham (unless you prefer swimming!) come on over!!!!!!! Let's go play inna snow!!!!

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v3/8/60/63/29686063fvhwWZFgTE_ph.jpg

[Sudilar]

OK, I'm blonde. Why won't my picture come up?

[AdoreMyDogs]

Originally posted by Sudilar
Star, Cody, Daisy, Perry...and Graham (unless you prefer swimming!) come on over!!!!!!! Let's go play inna snow!!!!

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1/v3/8/60/63/29686063fvhwWZFgTE_ph.jpg

HAY Killi n Shi! I kan see you gots sno too, dats KOOL!!!! I do like ta swim but all da water is hard n slippery! Kant go swimmin in water dat is not reely water :D

I would LOVE ta play with you too pups! I think you guyz r sooper kool! And Shiloh, your purty.

Your frend Graham.

[Albea]

Hi Killie old friend,
This is Carina. My mom didn't look at this post for a long time. She doesn't want to look early at messages about pups being sick because they make her cry :rolleyes:. She thinks that if some time goes by the news will be good. And that is the case with you :p Now you are doing much better and we are soooo happy for you.
Thank you for your invitation to come play with you but I really hate snow and we had a lot of it lately :mad: Have fun and stay well.

[tatsxxx11]

Hi Killi and Sweet Shi!! Mom says the WEbBershots is acting kinda fussy lately and maybe they won't let us post our pics here anymore. That's why we're all gettiin the red x's!!:mad: But, we pasted yer pic. address in address bar and saw you guyz lookin sooooo koooooo!!:cool: Killi, Shi, you two are even purrtier eber time I see yer pics. Looks like you like the snowy stuff too! And guess what??? Yesterday I cut my mouf onna snow and ice too!! Mom went :eek: !! No sweat!!:D I kept goin! Thanks for the invite to visit. Wouldn't that be the BEST!!:) Stay well, warm and toasty today and love on yer Mom!!
Love, Star***SHiNe*** and Cody Girl!

[Cockermommy]

Has anyone ever tried Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE) for pyoderma? My male cocker has it in his lip folds. And I was told by another cocker owner to clean it daily with a cotton ball soaked in peroxide. However after googling the condition, it appears that he will also need an antibiotic. I'm totally okay with doing that, but I would like to see if there is anything else that might work first. My cocker is prone to having yeast issues and I'm worried that an antibiotic is going to set of a chain of other problems. GSE cures staph and parasites, so I thought it might also work on the pyoderma. I just was wondering if anyone here has ever used GSE on their dog before.