Is Docking right?

[Labrador_Lover]

:confused: My friend has just bred a litter of dobermans and is wondering whether to dock them or not? What would you say?

[PayItForward]

Welcome to Pet Talk :D

--------------------------------

If a dog is born with big ears, that is how they should stay.

Why breed a particular breed, to put the pups though un-neccessary pain.

With respect, why is your friend breeding pups without thinking this kind of issues though beforehand.

In fact why is your friend breeding at all, while there are plenty of homeless dogs, looking for homes already. :(

Maybe you can persuade him/her to have his pets neutered, after these pups have been rehomed.

[cloverfdx]

Welcome to pet talk:)

i agree with PayItForward, about the reasons for breeding in the first place and decisions abo0ut docking the pups tail should have been made BEFORE they were born.

as for tail docking i have to agree with it , but there should be laws about how it is done (Eg local anethetic (sp?) and ONLY done by a vet)

i have 2 reasons as to why i agree with tail docking #1 is some breeds like the Boxer are very excitable (would you rather have a tail docked than having to have an injured tail amputated later on in life?) and the other reason is because where i live the Animal welfare (RSPCA) are going on and on about banning tail docking (not to mention wasting a hell of alot of money on posters) when they should be using the money to train up more inspectors (we have ONE inspector for a 5 hour drive radius:eek: ) so many animals die every day because the one inspector can only get through a few visits a day and then can never get back to check up on the animals.

so yes i agree with tail docking (and have signed a petition for the VCA (vic canine association) saying so.

[ChrisH]

Firstly, welcome to Pet Talk Labrador Lover. :) I look forward to seeing pictures and hearing all about your pets, especially your Lab! :D

As for your friend wondering whether to dock the Dobie`s tails, I say please, please, don`t. When I had my Dobie`s, Prince and Max, many, many years ago, it was done as a matter of course and it was impossible, no matter how hard we tried, to get a Dobie with a natural tail. Nowadays it is a totally different story as more and more people are discontinuing this practice, and I hope your friend will become one of them. There is a website you and your friend may like to take a look at, on this page there is a picture of an undocked Dobie and on the very bottom there are links to read more.

http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/dobermann.htm

Whatever your friend decides ( and I hope it is against docking!) maybe you can, please, show us some pictures of the pups?:) I love Dobes!

Christine

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Welcome to Pet Talk!! Glad you could join us!

If a dog is born with big ears, that is how they should stay.

In fact why is your friend breeding at all, while there are plenty of homeless dogs, looking for homes already. :(

I agree!

[pitc9]

I know the breeds that have docked tails, (dobes, rott, bxr...) but I don't know for what reason they do, I thought once I heard people years and years ago started docking tails of dogs so that when they were hunting, the animal the dogs were hunting didn't have anything easy to grab onto. Now... if some breeds are still doing that for that reason.... then no I don't think docking is right.
But like cloverfdx said.... with the boxer, it can cause problems and pain down the road... so then in that case yes!

As for ears... NO!! There is NO reason to put puppies through pain like that!! I've seen plenty of dobes with natural ears. It seems that only people that want there dog to look "Mean" will have there dobes ears done. Or people that think it won't look like a dobe if it's ears are not done. Well ya know what.... if more and more people didn't have there dobes ears done, then people would realize that you DON'T have to do it!!!!
Now... if there is a medical issue that I don't know about there ears, (and I'm not talking about ear infections!!) then there maybe a reason. But if it's just to make them look "mean" or because "They won't look like a dobe" then forget it!!!!

[cloverfdx]

Now... if there is a medical issue that I don't know about there ears, (and I'm not talking about ear infections!!) then there maybe a reason. But if it's just to make them look "mean" or because "They won't look like a dobe" then forget it!!!!

as far as i know there is no medical reason to crop ears (JMHO it looks awful) and it is just to make the dog "look" mean:rolleyes: some people. *cheers* we dont crop ears in austrralia *legally anyway*

[primabella]

No I don't agree with it. They look best au naturel anyways. My uncle's Dobies have all had uncropped ears and they are just so adorable that way.

When it comes to the tail--I sort of agree with docking but only if there is a possibility of it being a health problem.

[Karen]

No! Leave those sweet floppy ears and that whip of a tail! :)

[ChrisH]

Ear cropping is illegal in the UK so I am certain Labrador_Lover is asking about tail-docking which is, I am sorry to say, still legal here.


I heard people years and years ago started docking tails of dogs so that when they were hunting, the animal the dogs were hunting didn't have anything easy to grab onto.
That is partly true, the reason was, and is still, given for docking tails, that it prevents retrievers and hunting breeds getting their tails damaged when going through thick cover, brambles bushes etc.
.... some breeds like the Boxer are very excitable (would you rather have a tail docked than having to have an injured tail amputated later on in life?) I have to disagree with very excitable being a reason to cut off a tail! These beautiful Boxers seem to be happy and healthy with their tails still intact!:)
http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/breeds/BoxerLimbrick.jpg
http://anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/breeds/Boxerpup.jpg

As you all may have guessed I am against docking.:D
Chris

[tomkatzid]

No docking. No cropping.

We saw a grayhound with what we thought was a docked tail. But the owner said it was "Happy Tail" injury.

[Kfamr]

I think docking tails and cropping ears is stupid.

The best thing about a dog is when it greats you with a wagging tail! Or when you're playing, and the tail goes super fast.

[wolfsoul]

I agree with docking because it seems to me that the breeds that have their tails docked are very excitable breeds can can hurt their tails very easily or hurt a child with that whip of a tail. I read a story about an undocked doberman that blinded the eye of a three year old child with it's tail.

I don't agree with cropping ears though. There are no medical reasons to do something like that. Personally I think that some breeds look better with their ears cropped, like dobies, but think about it. You are putting a dog through anesthesia, cutting off part of it's ear and stitching it up, all for the sake of look.

[primabella]

The best thing about a dog is when it greats you with a wagging tail! Or when you're playing, and the tail goes super fast.

That's so true! Mickey always smacks me in the head with his tail. (if I'm lying down of course :p) And I love watching his cat-like ears twitch. :D

[Twisterdog]

I think that there are many, many more important issues that dog lovers should be concentrating on, rather then bickering about tail docking.

There are tens of thousands of dogs dying every day because there are not enough homes for all of them. There are dogs being tortured in research labs. There are dogs starving to death. There are dogs being tortured to death before being eaten, because high adrenalin levels at death are supposed to make the dog meat taste better. There are dogs being gassed at shelters, sometimes with hot car exhaust fumes, because cities don't allocate the funds to euthanize humanely. These are the issues dog lovers ought to be spending their time, energy, money and voice fighting. Not something as petty as tail docking.

If a dog has a loving home for its entire life, perhaps sixteen to eighteen years, what difference does it make if those loving owners prefer the dogs tail docked or not? If a dog is lucky enough to find someone to feed it, love it, take it to the vet and provide a safe, warm home for it in this cruel world ... who cares whether it has a long tail or not?

Docking a puppy's tail at a day or two old is not the huge, agonizing tragedy some would make it out to be. I've seen many tail dockings. Done properly, it is over in a matter of seconds ... kind of like getting your ears pierced. Getting its tail docked in no way, shape or form traumatizes a dog for life.

Is it necessary? In most cases, no. Is it cosmetic? Sure. Is it important enough an issue to cause a rift in the dog fancy? Certainly not. Instead of worrying about dogs getting their tails docked, please go volunteer at a shelter and help save some dogs' lives. Long or short tails, they all want to live.

Also, I'd just like to add this: dogs with docked tails still have tails. I've seen so many posts that make it sound like the dog's whole tail it cut off, and it has no tail whatsoever to wag. That is not the case at all, unless maybe with some "home crop" job, where the idiots didn't know what they were doing. Several of my dogs have cropped tails (already done when I rescued them as adults) and several have natural tails. The natural tails are about eight inches long, and the docked tails are about four inches long ... but everone still has a tail!

[ChrisH]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
I think that there are many, many more important issues that dog lovers should be concentrating on, rather then bickering about tail docking.
Of course there are many more important issues, I totally agree and I try to do something to help allievate/eradicate the problems, within my limited ability to do so. For you to imply that to care about the docking of tails is not to care or do anything about other issues is most unfair.
Labrador Lover asked this: My friend has just bred a litter of dobermans and is wondering whether to dock them or not? What would you say?
I gave my reply, in two posts I admit, but only on the subject of tail docking, which was what the thread was about after all.

[Rio and Me]

I to am from UK and dont agree with docking or croping!!! Breeders dock the working dogs tail yet most of them are sold for pets so what is the point!!!! and cropping there is no point, any dog (like a dobie) is still seen as a dobie just better!!!!
Ky and Rottie x (fully tail)!!!

[cali]

I dont agree with either, and not all breeds with docked tails and cropped ears are exitable, or hunting dogs, a pyr shep for example are a herding breed and they are supposed to have cropped ears and docked tails, happy breeder(they breed border collies, belgens, and pyr sheps) they cropped one dogs ears, and there other pups came with docked tails, and after that she said she is NEVER going to do that again her pup sare born with nateral ears and tails and no matter what they look lik ethey will STAY that way. you loose a lot by docking a tail, and I see NO reason to. so they are exitable, big whoop, border collies are exitable, and so are a lot of other breeds, but they are fine with nateral tails, labs and goldens are extremly exitable, and their tails hurt, but they both have nateral tails. health reason is the ONLY reason to dock a dogs tail, and the're is absolutly zero reasons for cropping a dogs ears.

[RICHARD]

I get docked when I am late to work or leave early....


for dogs.....no.

[Cheshirekatt]

Normally I don't agree with docking or cropping.

Now, having said that....

As an owner of a boxer/pitty cross with a natural tail (a mighty, mighty happy tail I might add!) I wish it had been done when he was a puppy. :(

Now, we have to deal with the constant bleeding and injury he does to tail by whacking it on cabinets and walls. Hopefully we won't have to deal with 'happy tail' amputation later down the line. :(

And believe you me, he can show his happiness just fine without a full tail! He has full body wags! :D

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by Cheshirekatt


Now, we have to deal with the constant bleeding and injury he does to tail by whacking it on cabinets and walls. Hopefully we won't have to deal with 'happy tail' amputation later down the line. :(

I had an american bulldog when I was 5, and it was just like this. He was constantly whacking me in the face and hurting me, knocking things off the walls, litterally bruising your legs. That tail was like a whip, and it hurt so bad. One time he got me on the lip and my tooth went through the skin under my lip. Now I have a small scar there.

[Cheshirekatt]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
I had an american bulldog when I was 5, and it was just like this. He was constantly whacking me in the face and hurting me, knocking things off the walls, litterally bruising your legs. That tail was like a whip, and it hurt so bad. One time he got me on the lip and my tooth went through the skin under my lip. Now I have a small scar there.

Who knew 'happy tail' could be so dangerous! :)

[carrie]

No to docking and no to cropping.
These are hugely important issues. The fact that we feel we have a right to surgically alter the way an animal looks for cosmetic vanity says an awful lot about the way we view domestic animals. It is the way that society at large feels about their animals that enables so many to neglect, abandon and mistreat them with little or no thought, why so many litters are born without planning and why the pounds and rescue centres are always full. Surely if we are allowed to cut bits off them then we are putting a very low value on them?

[Twisterdog]

For you to imply that to care about the docking of tails is not to care or do anything about other issues is most unfair.

I didn't imply that at all. I simply stated my personal opinion, which is that tail docking is a petty issue in the big scheme of things, sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" type of issue. I have my opinion, you have yours. I didn't imply that you, or anyone else, cared about nothing else but docking. How did you get that from my post?


I also said:


Is it important enough an issue to cause a rift in the dog fancy? Certainly not.

which is my main complaint about the tail docking issue. You may have two people who agree that dogs are great animals, in need of help, care, training, etc. These two people may be great allies in the battle to help and save dogs ... and yet they get into an argument because one of them has a cocker spaniel with a docked tail and one of them has a boxer with a natural tail. Petty, and pointless. Dog people ought to stick together and be allies in the war against back yard breeders, dog fighters, puppy mills, etc. Not getting angry with one another over the length of tails. THAT was the point of my post, ChrisH, nothing "unfair" about it.

[ChrisH]

Originally posted by Twisterdog
I simply stated my personal opinion, which is that tail docking is a petty issue in the big scheme of things, sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" type of issue. I have my opinion, you have yours. I didn't imply that you, or anyone else, cared about nothing else but docking. How did you get that from my post?
These are the parts of of your posts I perhaps took the wrong way.

There are tens of thousands of dogs dying every day because there are not enough homes for all of them. There are dogs being tortured in research labs. There are dogs starving to death. There are dogs being tortured to death before being eaten, because high adrenalin levels at death are supposed to make the dog meat taste better. There are dogs being gassed at shelters, sometimes with hot car exhaust fumes, because cities don't allocate the funds to euthanize humanely. These are the issues dog lovers ought to be spending their time, energy, money and voice fighting. Not something as petty as tail docking.

Is it necessary? In most cases, no. Is it cosmetic? Sure. Is it important enough an issue to cause a rift in the dog fancy? Certainly not. Instead of worrying about dogs getting their tails docked, please go volunteer at a shelter and help save some dogs' lives. Long or short tails, they all want to live.
I am sorry for any misunderstanding.

Dog people ought to stick together and be allies in the war against back yard breeders, dog fighters, puppy mills, etc. Not getting angry with one another over the length of tails. THAT was the point of my post, ChrisH, nothing "unfair" about it.I totally agree with what you have made clear was the point of your post. Dog people, in fact all animal lovers, should indeed stick together and be allies against the all the many cruelties and purposeful neglect that creatures suffer at the hands of humans.
As for getting angry with anyone about the length of a dogs tail, I certainly am not angry with anyone, nor seek to argue.

I posted because Labrador Lover asked, "My friend has just bred a litter of dobermans and is wondering whether to dock them or not? What would you say?" This is question about a future act, and as I am anti-docking I replied accordingly. This does not mean that I am angry at those who are pro-docking, if people want to go ahead and dock their dogs, it does make me very sad but not angry at them.
Nor do I have an issue with people whose dogs are already docked, we all love and care for our dogs, with or without tails. A neighbour has three Springers who have docked tails, my Bob hasn`t, and we have never had a disagreement about it, I just love his girls!
All I ever ask is for anyone who is thinking about having their puppys tail docked is to think again, to not do it, especially not do it for cosmetic reasons.

Chris

[stacwase]

You know - the docking issue with dogs is a lot like the circumcision issue with people. We have to deal with that a lot. There are a lot of doctors who refuse to do it now, or at least try to talk the parents out of it, because they say it's a cruel thing to do cosmetic surgery on somebody who can't tell us whether or not they want it.

I voted "no" on the docking.

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by stacwase
You know - the docking issue with dogs is a lot like the circumcision issue with people. We have to deal with that a lot. There are a lot of doctors who refuse to do it now, or at least try to talk the parents out of it, because they say it's a cruel thing to do cosmetic surgery on somebody who can't tell us whether or not they want it.

I never thought of it that way. :) But atleast circumcision is based on health.

[Cheshirekatt]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
I never thought of it that way. :) But atleast circumcision is based on health.

Actually, I've heard there's no real medical reason for it. But I'm not positive on that....so I could be wrong. :)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Cheshirekatt
Actually, I've heard there's no real medical reason for it. But I'm not positive on that....so I could be wrong. :)

You are correct.

[Cheshirekatt]

Originally posted by RICHARD
You are correct.

Wow! You mean I was right about something?!?

lolololol

[aly]

Originally posted by ChrisH
I have to disagree with very excitable being a reason to cut off a tail! These beautiful Boxers seem to be happy and healthy with their tails still intact!:)


I agree! If tails were docked because the dog was exuberant, then they'd be doing it to Labs and Springers too. There are lots of Labs who are even more butt wiggly than Boxers.

I don't agree with tail docking or ear cropping at all unless for medical reasons. If tails are docked so the dogs won't get hurt during hunting, then they should NOT do it to companion dogs who are family pets.

[lv4dogs]

I also have to agree that w/ boxers docking to prevent injury is bologny. Labs & lots of other dogs are also very excitable breeds that end up having no injury to their tail later in life due to the nature of the dog.
Cropping of the ears should never be done (unless an injury requires it to be "ampputated"). But that rarely happens.
As far as tail docking... it depends, only if needed. One of the reasons Rotts had docked tails is that they used to be used for carting (pull cart to the meat market & so on) so the tails would not get in te way of the reins (simialr to horse & buggy harness & reigns). I believe that they were also docked as they used to be a hearding dog & that the tail would not get stepped on by bulls & what not or closed in gates when the cattle entered the stalls.

Basically what I am saying is if there is a purpose for docking the tail (you engage in the origional sport, event etc.. that the breed was used for) then by all means sure I agree with it. BUT there should be laws inforced that require it to be done by a licensed vet.

BUT as far as your friend goes, I would say no way. All litters should be totally planned out way before they come. Both parents should be tested free of all genetic diseases & other health problems & most of the pups should of been lined up w/ good homes before the litter was even conceived. This is a major topic to deal with especailly since all the pups are here already. I believe docking should be done between 3-5 days old (or something really close to that).

Please try to speak w/ your friends about spaying/neutering the parents. there are way too many great dogs looking for loving homes that don't even get a chance.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Cheshirekatt
Wow! You mean I was right about something?!?

lolololol


come on.....give yourself some credit.


I am against boxers having their ears clipped....

I like Evander Holyfield.:rolleyes:

I am 100 % against this!! It is nothing more than a cruel thing :mad: :mad:
Here in Belgium, this will be forbidden from 2004 (or close to that), and I am very happy about this! I know a person with a cocker spaniel. This dog has a docked tail:mad: ; well, I just don't understand, as a cocker spaniel has such a lovely tail :rolleyes: :mad:

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by Cheshirekatt
Actually, I've heard there's no real medical reason for it. But I'm not positive on that....so I could be wrong. :)
Actually I have heard that it prevents later infection. :) However it also hurts the baby..

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Actually I have heard that it prevents later infection. :) However it also hurts the baby..

circs are done primarily for for cosmetic/ religious reasons and the fact that docs can get some extra cash for 'taking a little off the top'.


The human body has ways of keeping itself cleans and under control, otherwise it would not be a 'genuine factory part'......there are cases where a man HAS to have one done in his later years...due to some problems in that area!

[Amber]

I think it is unfair for the dogs. I love the natural look, Long tails with floppy ears! But, I have a question. When we got brodie there were three in the liter his sister was born with a docked tail. But then the mom was a pure bred Rat terrier. Can dogs be born with docked tails? :confused:

[Fox-Gal]

I have 3 Boxer all with their tail and ears croped. 2 of them came that way when I resuced them. Tuffy, I made a mistake and had his ears done, 1 reason was I have had Boxer sense I was 1 year old and they all had them done....thats how it was done back then. The other reason was my father found Tuffy for me after my divorce for a watch dog and he pushed the ear croping on me. He said "A Boxer doesn't look like a Boxer with out the ears done" :rolleyes: So I gave in.....even at my age it's still hard not to say No to your father.

I would never do that again, for any reason, Tuffy went through He#l with his ears. I had to take him back to the vet 4 times because he rip the stiches open. It was a mess and it hurt him and me so bad....it's just not worth it.

Now as for the tail...Like I said I have had Boxer sense I was young and a few that we got at a older age didn't have their tail done. Tug, Kimmy and Tigger all had to have their tails done later. They wag them so much that the beat them up, even to a point that they made it bleed some. So I will do a Boxers tail if done very shortly after birth.

I'm afraid that we might have to do the same with my Great Dane, he also wags it so much that he has hurt it. Their so much power behind that tail that he can't help it. I been hit by that tail and it does hurt....worse then when my full size Iguans tail hits me. So I can only image what it feels like to him. We are still not sure yet what we are going to do with him. It's very hard to decide what to do, there are pros and cons to it. We just have to weight them out. Whats best for Brock. But that is only reason to get a tail done....for the dogs sake.

[Cheshirekatt]

Yep, Joxer actually gave me a fat lip one time! lololololol

Good thing I love the big rock-head!

:D

[Twisterdog]

These are the parts of of your posts I perhaps took the wrong way.

No problem, ChrisH. I should have been more clear!


I board several dogs, one a boxer and one a doberman, that had natural tails. They would invariably have their tails bleeding within a couple hours of arriving, by wagging them against the sides of their kennels. When the dog was there for a week or two, you can imagine the problems we had!

Some dogs have thick, strong tails (like a lab) and some have thin, fragile, wiry tails, like these two dogs. I talked to their owners, and asked if this only happened when they were boarded. They said no, that they got their tails bleeding at home regularly as well.

It ended up that one or these owners had his dog's tail docked when he got his teeth cleaned, to avoid anymore bleeding and injury. It seems to me the dog is happy with this, as he was forever trying to lick his tail before, to get it to stop bleeding.

The other one had to rush his dog to the emergency vet one night, because he had injured his tail playing with their other dog, and they couldn't get it to stop bleeding. They had to have her tail docked that night. She too, seems none the worse for wear.

These are just some dogs that I personally know from my little hometown, I'm sure there are thousands of other cases like these. There ARE sometimes medical reasons to dock a tail, although the cosmetic reasons are far more common.

Also, some dogs had their tails docked, ears cropped, and certain grooms for completely practical reasons at some point in the past, but the tradition has continued after the original reason is obsolete. For example, poodles originally had pom-poms of hair left over their joints to protect them from the cold when they swam to retreive birds in cold lakes, but the rest of the body shaved to help with bouyancy. Ear cropping (which I hate!) originally started by people who fought dogs in rings, so the opponant had less to grab onto and tear off. :( And with my dogs, their naturally curly tails were docked to the straight portion, about four inches, to make a "handle" to grab the dog by the tail and pull it from a fox or badger hole, if the owner thought the dog was getting the bad end of the deal.

Just some trivia on a slow afternoon.

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by Amber
Can dogs be born with docked tails? :confused:
Yes, some dogs are born without tails or with bob-tails. :) the catahoula I'm getting may be a bobtail, it all depends on which dog the breeder breeds. Other dogs that I know of that have bobtails or no tails are the Australian shepherd and bobtail Australian cattle dog.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by Amber
Can dogs be born with docked tails? :confused:

You bet. Some breeds that are almost always born with natural bob tails are Australian Shepherds, Old English Sheepdogs, Pembroke Welsh Corgis and Schipperkes.

[Tonya]

My grandfather docks his cattledog's tails. He says the reason is because they tend to get caught up in gates, stepped on by farm animals, etc...He says it isn't supposed to be for looks, it is for working dogs.

I really don't have an opinion on docking. I haven't really done any research on it.

[Twisterdog]

My grandfather docks his cattledog's tails. He says the reason is because they tend to get caught up in gates, stepped on by farm animals, etc...He says it isn't supposed to be for looks, it is for working dogs

A lot of the ranchers around here also say that cattle and sheep will be distracted and/or alarmed by the herding dog's long, waving tail. I've never quite believed that, since collies have long tails, and they herd, right? :confused:

[ParNone]

A lot of the ranchers around here also say that cattle and sheep will be distracted and/or alarmed by the herding dog's long, waving tail. I've never quite believed that, since collies have long tails, and they herd, right?
Seems like they're more companion dogs now, but yes their
original purpose was herding. Their tails don't seem to be
very noticable IMO, but who knows to a sheep maybe they are.
They really don't wag their tail rapidly, like say a terrier would.
It's more of a swishing motion and that's done moreso when
their tail is a lower position. When they run they hold it higher,
but even still it's more parallel to the ground, not way up high
for all to see. That's just my view of what I've experienced with
my Smoothie. I would think with a Rough, the tail would be
even less noticable, hidden in all that hair.

I've not been around any cattle dogs to know if theirs is more
distracting in comparison, but it does seem to me, that most
docking did originate with some purpose in mind.

Par...