Chicken had her kittens! *pics* [Archive]

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 10:31 AM

Omg moosmom...I said i won't so you'll get off my back! Your making me feel like **** as it is. I'm NOT a bad person I just want a kitten and I KNOW I can give it a good loving home. I will NOT keep explaining myself over and over when not one of you listen to me. I feel like crying. I feel like you ppl are being so cruel to me about this (esp you moo) Its my cat my business. I hate to break it to you but I would not be the first. I talked to my vet about it to see what she things AND i did research. I don't know anyone whos care came out of it with suffering. Smitten is a prime example. She is an older cat as well. (Why I WONT adopt an older cat, its NOT fair to smitten) I'm sorry you feel so poorly of me because of it, but this will definitly be my last post in the cats section. I feel very unwelcome here when I never even brought a question up about declawing. I would never do anything to harm my animals, I love them all more then anything and I know I'll feel the same about my new kitten. I feel giving a kitten home and declawing it is better then it being killed. This is the ONLY way I can have one. If Smittens didn't go so well I wouldn't even get another one. Also, I 100% garentee I'm not the only person here with a declawed cat but everyone else won't say anything in fear they will be attack (Yes, I've had ppl PM aobut it) Unfortunatly, I'm not afraid to disagree with you but it REALLY hurts that you won't lay off. Your making me feel so badly because I want to make the right choices.

About the mom, yes its a good reason, and NO its not because they are poor. Its not my buisness and its not yours. She has her reasons for not getting it spayed. I also know for a fact ppl on here breed cats..whats wrong with that? They'll all get good homes..

I didn't make any of these threads to get bashed..I posted it to show the cute pics ONLY. Again, sorry you feel so poorly of me. My choice however is final weather you like it or not. You just won't hear about it or the kitten which I'm sure will make you happy so you don't have to think about it. Thanks for the warm welcome, you so kind.

bisi.cat

09-19-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by slleipnir
...I said i won't so you'll get off my back!

I feel giving a kitten home and declawing it is better then it being killed. This is the ONLY way I can have one.

She has her reasons for not getting it spayed. I also know for a fact ppl on here breed cats..whats wrong with that? They'll all get good homes..

I really can't believe, what I've just read...this is sad and upsetting...I am out of words...and it hurts everyone, who ever has worked at a shelter seeing cats being abandoned or worse being put down...such ignorance...

Sorry, but this post is simply hurting...

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 11:03 AM

We have been down this path before, people. If we EVER want to change people's attitudes on declawing, or adopting adult cats, it will be through warmth, love, compassion and education.

People will do what they will do, and bashing them to the point that they want to leave the cat section is wrong.

Schleppy, while I did make the personal choice to declaw my six cats, I have changed my philosophy on it. There are alternatives. I don't see 'you' as the one we need to educate so much as your mom. I would ask that you sit down with her and show her some of the links we have posted before, and THEN reach a final decision.

I would NOT like to see you leave the cat section over this, and would LOVE to see and hear more about your kitten and your cat.

Johanna

2kitties

09-19-2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by slleipnir
She has her reasons for not getting it spayed. I also know for a fact ppl on here breed cats..whats wrong with that? They'll all get good homes..

There are NO good reasons for not spaying or neutering an unpapered animal. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but I feel very very strongly about this- it is just irresponsible pet ownership. And there is EVERYTHING wrong with breeding unpapered animals. If anyone having litters of accidental kittens would spend half an hour in a humane society or just read the stats on how many are killed every day, they'd spay their animals. The kittens in the litter may get good homes, but they take a home from one of those on death row in a shelter. Not to meantion how unhealthy it is for the poor mom. Her risk of cancer increases with each heat cycle she experiences. It's so sad.

Slleipnir, I hope you'll continue to post on the cat section and I honestly think you are in a position to educate your neighbor about caring for her animals. Maybe giving the mom away is the kindest thing she can do for the cat since she clearly can't care for it properly. Possibly, if you are in a position due to your age and living situation that you have to do things just because your mother says so, then you should wait until you're an adult to get another kitten? And I don't mean that as condescending advice at all. I think you sound like someone who loves animals and can give a good home- when the home is yours to give as you see fit.

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by bisi.cat
I really can't believe, what I've just read...this is sad and upsetting...I am out of words...and it hurts everyone, who ever has worked at a shelter seeing cats being abandoned or worse being put down...such ignorance...

Sorry, but this post is simply hurting...

Did you not read what she posted to me?! I feel like Im on a one way street getting no where..! If your point was to make me feel bad then congrats! You litterally brought tears to my eyes. I don't understand how thats ignorant though, I mean animals get put to sleep I dont get it..

I'm sorry Jo, but I think its to late for that. I have no reason to stay here and let anyone know about how it goes except a few kind ppl who have PM me support. I obviously don't deserve a cat because the one thing that seems to be important to me doesnt seem to matter to anyone else..

And the thing is, my mom doesn't care if we get another cat, she'd just assume not. Shes only agreed to it for me. So education or not she doesn't care because the answer would be no..

I'm done here I sick of getting so upset over this when you ppl are so unsuppostive.

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by 2kitties
There are NO good reasons for not spaying or neutering an unpapered animal. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but I feel very very strongly about this- it is just irresponsible pet ownership. And there is EVERYTHING wrong with breeding unpapered animals. If anyone having litters of accidental kittens would spend half an hour in a humane society or just read the stats on how many are killed every day, they'd spay their animals. The kittens in the litter may get good homes, but they take a home from one of those on death row in a shelter. Not to meantion how unhealthy it is for the poor mom. Her risk of cancer increases with each heat cycle she experiences. It's so sad.

Slleipnir, I hope you'll continue to post on the cat section and I honestly think you are in a position to educate your neighbor about caring for her animals. Maybe giving the mom away is the kindest thing she can do for the cat since she clearly can't care for it properly. Possibly, if you are in a position due to your age and living situation that you have to do things just because your mother says so, then you should wait until you're an adult to get another kitten? And I don't mean that as condescending advice at all. I think you sound like someone who loves animals and can give a good home- when the home is yours to give as you see fit.

I'm not getting into why she has to give it up its a long story. These things happen. I also won't get into why they haven't spayed her. You ppl should get worked up like this when you odnt know the whole story :(

moosmom

09-19-2003, 12:14 PM

I don't see 'you' as the one we need to educate so much as your mom.

That was the point I was trying to make. It's not YOU that needs educating, it's your mother. I, by no means, meant to make you feel bad, and never once in my post said you were a bad person. I am so sorry if I made you feel that way. And as 2kitties said, there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever for not spaying/neutering their cat.

Kittens can be trained to use a scratching post. Look at me, I've trained 6 of them!! Your remark about not hurting a kitten is a contradiction as declawing DOES hurt. Try cutting your finger off at the first knuckle, use it and tell me it doesn't hurt. How about adopting an older cat who is already declawed??

I also volunteer at a shelter and see all the time cats being put down. Either they have FeLv, too old to place (remember Carrier??) or they need the cage space. The reasons are absolutely ridiculous and endless. I also see many MANY cats being dumped off and you would not BELIEVE the reasons ("I'm pregnant and can't afford them anymore.") Like a kid is any less expensive. Or "My 14 year old cat won't play with my kids anymore." DUH!!!

I spent 3 days rescuing 5 kittens dumped off in the bushes where I work. Some idiot who didn't spend the money to spay his cat took the easy way out.

Right now our shelter has over 250 cats :eek:. The nursery is bursting with kittens that will all find homes because they're cute, while the cat rooms are overflowing with older cats who were no longer wanted by their irresponsible owners, and will be overlooked.

That's why I also feel VERY strongly about spaying/neutering.

So quit your whining and stay here and post. I didn't bash anyone, I simply made a point. We all agree to disagree now and again. Then we move on. I hope you'll be mature enough and do the same.

Truce???

luckies4me

09-19-2003, 12:42 PM

How much research have you done on declawing? Have you seen the pictures of the procedure. You really should research it a little more. Why not try to TRAIN the cat. Who knows, your kitten may grow up to be a genuine cat scratcher lover! My kitties love their post! There are also many other alternatives. I just do not see why you would not just spend time with the cat and train it. It's really not that hard. There are also SoftPaws, which are nail caps sort of like press on nails that go over the sheath of the nail so that the cat cannot scratch. There is also a procedure called a Tendenectomy. Perhaps this would be a better solution.

Declawing is VERY painful, trust me, I see it almost EVERY day. I work at a vet clinic and we do declaw cats, however we encourage responsible pet ownership by educating the owner beforehand, letting them know there are options out there. I have seen kitties in so much pain, they have to stay the night in a scary clinic with blood soaking their bandages. Their feet are so painful for two weeks until they heal.

And if your mother is so set against you NOT having a cat, perhaps you should wait until you are on your own, and spare this kitten a little pain. And just because most people do not experience any complications, it doesn't mean your cat won't. Personally where I work, on our price sheet we have a "re-declaw". Meaning the old vet who worked there did botched declaws and the digits actually started growing back, meaning the cats had to go in for yet another painful surgery!

EDUCATE, DONT AMPUTATE!!! That is what we must do. Here are a few links I would like you to look at. I would like to ask you to please reconsider declawing your pet.

Pics of a declaw procedure. This is a lot better than what I see at work, as we do not use this device, we use an actual blade to remove the digit.

http://community-2.webtv.net/stopdeclaw/declawpics/

Declawing tragedies

http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawstory.html

http://community-2.webtv.net/zuzu22/STOPDECLAWCOM/

PayItForward

09-19-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic
We have been down this path before, people. If we EVER want to change people's attitudes on declawing, or adopting adult cats, it will be through warmth, love, compassion and education.

People will do what they will do, and bashing them to the point that they want to leave the cat section is wrong.

Schleppy, while I did make the personal choice to declaw my six cats, I have changed my philosophy on it. There are alternatives. I don't see 'you' as the one we need to educate so much as your mom. I would ask that you sit down with her and show her some of the links we have posted before, and THEN reach a final decision.

I would NOT like to see you leave the cat section over this, and would LOVE to see and hear more about your kitten and your cat.

Johanna

Johanna, I DO agree with your post / opinion.

But I have just read this thread and I see no evidence of person bashing.

The child (Please correct me if I am wrong but slleipnir lives at home with mum and sounds very young) simply had a strong reaction to comments posted.

It makes me wonder if she knows she is doing the wrong thing by declawing a kitten and can't defend her actions, hence she is getting upset and shirty with the posters instead !!

I often found that people who know they are in the wrong, respond in a highly emotional and personal name calling manner, rather than post a logical discussion.

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by moosmom
That was the point I was trying to make. It's not YOU that needs educating, it's your mother. I, by no means, meant to make you feel bad, and never once in my post said you were a bad person. I am so sorry if I made you feel that way. And as 2kitties said, there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever for not spaying/neutering their cat.

Kittens can be trained to use a scratching post. Look at me, I've trained 6 of them!! Your remark about not hurting a kitten is a contradiction as declawing DOES hurt. Try cutting your finger off at the first knuckle, use it and tell me it doesn't hurt. How about adopting an older cat who is already declawed??

I also volunteer at a shelter and see all the time cats being put down. Either they have FeLv, too old to place (remember Carrier??) or they need the cage space. The reasons are absolutely ridiculous and endless. I also see many MANY cats being dumped off and you would not BELIEVE the reasons ("I'm pregnant and can't afford them anymore.") Like a kid is any less expensive. Or "My 14 year old cat won't play with my kids anymore." DUH!!!

I spent 3 days rescuing 5 kittens dumped off in the bushes where I work. Some idiot who didn't spend the money to spay his cat took the easy way out.

Right now our shelter has over 250 cats :eek:. The nursery is bursting with kittens that will all find homes because they're cute, while the cat rooms are overflowing with older cats who were no longer wanted by their irresponsible owners, and will be overlooked.

That's why I also feel VERY strongly about spaying/neutering.

So quit your whining and stay here and post. I didn't bash anyone, I simply made a point. We all agree to disagree now and again. Then we move on. I hope you'll be mature enough and do the same.

Truce???

If you want, I will go to our humane society and take pictures of how many are there. Cause there is never a lot. As hard as it is to believe, there isn't. Almost never do you see little kittens.

Like I said, its this or no cat. My mom doesn;t need educating because its not her who wants a cat. I want one so much. Frpom my research, I know its looked down apon..but my cat is happy and healthy..

I made 3 posts prevoiusly as to why I won't adopt an older cat.

I never ment it doesnt hurt to declaw, I ment I never wanted to hurt it in the way that it would have a horrible life because of it. I'm sure having your uterus ripped out doesn't feel to nice either but its something to help right? Now I know declawing is pointless, but if I don't get it because I don't want to declaw, who is to say the next person won't?

One thing I can offer my kitten besides a loving home, is a lifetime home. Sure they're sweet and adorable as kittens, but my bond only grows for them as it gets older.

Yes, I am seriously going to concider not getting a kitten now..I just don't think I can not get one for these reasons however, only because I strongly feel it could be worse for it (it could get declawed anyway, then get older and not wanted, sent to the HS for a long wait, maybe get adopted, but Im sure its not going to liking sitting in a cage) I'll tell my mom about other ways but I know what she'll say.

Just so you know, I will not be getting one of these kittens, now please lets move one and focus on those cute kitties on page 1

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 01:57 PM

PIF,
We are in complete agreement with one another. Maybe I rushed to defend Schleppy because of my own guilt? I don't really know.

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 02:03 PM

I often found that people who know they are in the wrong, respond in a highly emotional and personal name calling manner, rather than post a logical discussion

Yes. I know I'm not helping the kitten. I do live at home, im 18. And, yes, I over react to everything because thats how I am. I take things personal even with ppl I don't know. My dad told me to smarten up and stop taking to heart what internet ppl say. I have to say he is right. If you dont think that was bashing then ok, I feel differently. (about moo anyway)
As for it not helping the kitten, ppl just made it seem 10 x worse then everything I looked up which yes made me feel crappy. I find it upsetting because no one reads what I say. Ive said 3 times now why I wont adopt an older cat, also why she hasnt spayed it and why shes giving them away. I just wanted to show those pics when ppl changed the sub saying 'shame on you' Maybe if ppl read more carefully they wouldn't get so angry with me

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic
PIF,
We are in complete agreement with one another. Maybe I rushed to defend Schleppy because of my own guilt? I don't really know.

Thanks....:(

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 02:07 PM

-sigh- please read my above post

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:17 PM

Schleppy,
You are misunderstanding what I am saying!!!! If I were you, I would feel EXACTLY HOW YOU DO! I was only saying that maybe I (not you, ME, I, CATNIP) feel this way because of what I have been through.

I would have interpreted it as bashing...but, I agree with PIF, too. You are being sensitive, AND I WOULD BE TOO. But, please don't look for meanness where I don't think it is intended.

Johanna

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:20 PM

And, to be sure, I reread the whole thing again. I don't think I meant anything ill towards you by what I wrote, when agreeing with PIF.

And, Donna, I don't think this has anything to do with maturity levels. I am quite a bit older than Schleppy, and I declawed....really, I stick by my original post...if we want to educate, we can't bash.

moosmom

09-19-2003, 02:24 PM

Johanna,

I have deleted that post and am calling a truce. Okay Schleppy??

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:26 PM

Just don't delete the whole thread (JOKING!).

Schleppy...come on back here....NOW!

lishanicole

09-19-2003, 02:28 PM

Good Grief.. I don't usualy post here, but I do lurk quite a bit. Yet I feel I really have to say something. I have never been so disgusted by a thread. I understand that the majority of this forum is anti-declaw, as am I. However, I see that as no reason to judge someone. You may not see it as a judgement, but there is no other way to fathom a "shame on you". Most people do not like being judged, I among them. While it is fine to disagree with someone, I think it goes to far when you presume to judge someone. If you want to educate someone provide information not a guilt trip.

PayItForward

09-19-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic
PIF,
We are in complete agreement with one another. Maybe I rushed to defend Schleppy because of my own guilt? I don't really know.

Johanna,

What was done was done, I don't want you to go though life feeling guilty about your beautiful declawed cats.

What is important is keep on loving those tuxedeo kitties (& Binx)and continue to educating others, about declawing in the present day.

And post some more photos... ;)

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by lishanicole
Good Grief.. I don't usualy post here, but I do lurk quite a bit. Yet I feel I really have to say something. I have never been so disgusted by a thread. I understand that the majority of this forum is anti-declaw, as am I. However, I see that as no reason to judge someone. You may not see it as a judgement, but there is no other way to fathom a "shame on you". Most people do not like being judged, I among them. While it is fine to disagree with someone, I think it goes to far when you presume to judge someone. If you want to educate someone provide information not a guilt trip.

You know, you are relatively new here, and I think we have established the judging attitude is not the way to go. To come on and say, "I have never been so disgusted by a thred" is pretty dern judgmental, IMHO.

I think Donna saw the point, and made the appropriate adjustments....

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 02:33 PM

One thing I really hate about boards is that they always attract people who are dissatisfied with their life that they take them out on other posters because it is a faceless crime.

Yes Moira was really immature in not getting Chicken neutered, but certain things in her life have recently spiraled out of control. And Chicken was given to Moira when she was two years old, so the first litter was not Moiras fault.

Yes, I personally think that declawin is a cruel and unneccessary procedure, but if the choice is ending up in a good home being declawed, or ending up in crap home, which would you rather.

Audrey just wanted to share the miracle of 4 tiny kittens and you attack, just admit it. Hell i'll admit that i am p***** off at some of you posters. And to call her immature is a far cry from reality, yah she is sensitive but who isnt when all these people who dont know all the facts jump down her throat saying that she is immature, and basically coldhearted because she will get this kitten declawed.

If you want to see immaturity, then talk to me, but do not say that Audrey is. The only person who this is really isnt directed to is Johanna, she said what im trying to say only a lot nicer

nodgeness

09-19-2003, 02:34 PM

Ok, I can't even believe i'm going to post! Can't we be adults enough not to discuss maturity levels?
Also, when someone posts a question that has nothing to do w/ declawing or spaying the topic 65% (if not more )of the time turns into that & nothing ever gets accomplished except the person asking a question feels bashed. If you think you change peoples minds by a conversation that's heated you are only fooling yourself. All that happens is the person will come in here & say whatever makes people happy. I won't get a kitty or a cat & I won't get it declawed. PLEASE they aren't being honest. They just want people to get of the topic. A topic i might add that wasn't even asked about!

Does anyone even know what the original topic was?

I've been on the bashed end of declawing & it's not nice in here. You use the word "educate" to judge people. As I have said many times before I would much rather see a declawed cat/kitten in a loving home over a cage or PTS.

Those of you who think people get upset because we're wrong on an issue. That is not the case. I get upset when someone makes remarks to belittle people in the thread because they disagree.
I understand & respect everyones passion for animals! I just wish we could stay on the actaul topics posted so this doesn't happen.

Uabassoon

09-19-2003, 02:39 PM

The thing that makes me really sad about this thread is the fact that you honestly believe there is a good reason for your friend not spaying her cat. To those of us that have worked at a shelter or volunteered or even fostered. We've seen these "cute kittens" that get put to sleep everyday because people like your friend have "good reasons" for not getting them spayed. I've reread this thread and I still can't find this "good reason" you just say it isn't anyone's buisness. But it is our business because we are the people who have to look at "cute kittens" as they wonder why they live in a cage and how much it breaks our heart every time one has to get put to sleep. As horrible as I think it is that you want to declaw, I understand that when it comes down to it it's your desicion. But the fact that you think it's ok to keep bringing in kittens when so many have to die, that really hurts.

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:40 PM

Ah, I don't think that is at all what Audrey is saying, Uba! BUT, she can't control what her friends do, and we don't know the whole story.

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:43 PM

Audrey posted to tell us that she might be getting a new kitten.

Let's get back to that topic.

2kitties

09-19-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Uabassoon
The thing that makes me really sad about this thread is the fact that you honestly believe there is a good reason for your friend not spaying her cat. To those of us that have worked at a shelter or volunteered or even fostered. We've seen these "cute kittens" that get put to sleep everyday because people like your friend have "good reasons" for not getting them spayed. I've reread this thread and I still can't find this "good reason" you just say it isn't anyone's buisness. But it is our business because we are the people who have to look at "cute kittens" as they wonder why they live in a cage and how much it breaks our heart every time one has to get put to sleep. As horrible as I think it is that you want to declaw, I understand that when it comes down to it it's your desicion. But the fact that you think it's ok to keep bringing in kittens when so many have to die, that really hurts.

uabassoon, I searched out the original thread and finally found what she's so reluctant to repost. Apparently the "good reason" is that the "cat got out before it could be spayed." Sorry, but I've heard that before. It doesn't fly with me. Mine were both spayed immediatly. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. And, if you can't afford to spay, then you can't afford to care for the cat.

I know this thread is getting ugly, and that is too bad. They're such precious little baby kitties and the mom is beautiful. Hopefully, they'll all find homes where they can get love and the care they deserve.

I never got an animal until I had my own home to give to it. When you're living with your mom, you are not in a position to go out and get animals that your mom clearly does not want. I'm sorry. I know that may sound hurtful. But you are 18 and should be saving your money for college and your own place, not getting more animals.

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 02:44 PM

Uabassoon- we never said that they were good reasons, we just said that she had her reasons and that she was stupid for it. And trust me, these kittens arent leaving until a good home is found.
Cataholic- no its actually not, some things im sure i might have took the wrong way, but then again maybe i didnt, its easy to misunderstand when we cant see the body language and to hear to the tone.
nodgeness- BRAVO!

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 02:44 PM

Uba: That isn't what I said at all..Moira is my friends sister, I don't know her well I'm not going to tell her to spay her cat with all that has recently happened to her (personal matters)

lishanicole

09-19-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic
You know, you are relatively new here, and I think we have established the judging attitude is not the way to go. To come on and say, "I have never been so disgusted by a thred" is pretty dern judgmental, IMHO.

I think Donna saw the point, and made the appropriate adjustments....
Yes, it may be judgemental, and I willing to admit that, but I stand by my statement.

Btw, Donna's retraction came while I was typing my post, so the sentiment of my post was expressed before I saw the adjustments.

nodgeness

09-19-2003, 02:46 PM

Thank you twirlbird! Now can we get back to the original question? or doesn't anyone remember what that is?

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by twirlbird

Cataholic- no its actually not, some things im sure i might have took the wrong way, but then again maybe i didnt, its easy to misunderstand when we cant see the body language and to hear to the tone.

The problem is that I didn't read your post clearly, so I deleted mine question back to you. It was my mistake.:)

nodgeness

09-19-2003, 02:48 PM

In this thread the original question by slleipnir was

Do you think they'll have long fur? Or is it too earlyl?

& the other thread was about kitty names & whether we thought she should get a male kitty or a female kitty to go w/ her older female cat.
Do you think her questions got answered?

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 02:48 PM

2kitties: Why are you telling me about someone elses cat? like its somehow my responsibility for her? Its not. I barly know her.

Also, I have no plans on moving out. I never ment she doesn't want it, I ment its not the end of the world if we don't get one, shes being kind in letting me keep one there. She loves smitten just as much as me.

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 02:50 PM

-goes to look at the cute kittens..intention of post-

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 02:51 PM

Okay for the way you tell if they have long fur, i read that if the fur is shiny it will be short, if its dull it will be long is that true?

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 02:57 PM

Twirly (hey, if you know Schleppy- I have to make you a nickname),
I had never heard that about the fur length. I am trying to think back to my true kittens- Allie and Dakky. Allie does have shiny hair, and it is longer than Dakky's who has a duller finish...so, maybe you heard it wrong? But, Tenny has dull hair, and boy is he a long haired one. And, Tex is a shorty with a shiny coat.

Who else knows about the fur and shiny v. dull?

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 03:03 PM

I probably did, it came from about.com which will put anyone up lol

Cheshirekatt

09-19-2003, 03:06 PM

Very, very cute kittens! And the mom is precious, too. If I could take her, I would.

The other topic has been hashed out before and I'm going to stay out of it.

Thanks for the adorable pictures!!

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by twirlbird
I probably did, it came from about.com which will put anyone up lol

You and your welfare sites..god twirly..;)

Cataholic

09-19-2003, 03:17 PM

Schleppy- a little less bashing and a little more cleaning out of your pm box, por favor.

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 03:27 PM

lol..yesh me lord

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 03:43 PM

Shes just jealous cause i upgraded from a tv box to a fridge box, and shes still stuck with the blender box

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 03:48 PM

Blender? Noo, I'm afraid THAT blew away last week!! hah, now I'm in a rotting flap of a box I found in a mud puddle..

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 03:49 PM

oh yes, sorry i forgot that it "blew" away last week

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 03:54 PM

What are you implying?! YOU STOLE IT!! I knew it! You just HAD to have the garage addon didnt you?

twirlbird

09-19-2003, 04:04 PM

What are you talking about i found that blender box with Audreys house do not move written on it by the side of the road. I just had to take all the stuff out of it. I found it i tells you

slleipnir

09-19-2003, 04:06 PM

:( RIP box

sandragonfly

09-21-2003, 04:22 AM

holy chicken! very very pretty mother! ...yeah maybe it's too early to say if they'll have long hair but lemme ask you, how old are they? then maybe I can say!

any more pictures!?

twirlbird

09-21-2003, 01:30 PM

They are one week old today. I think slleipnir took those pics thurs or fri, cant really member.

sandragonfly

09-21-2003, 08:16 PM

well..then I think...they probably have at least medium-haired. . .

slle: why can't you have a kitty from them?

NoahsMommy

09-21-2003, 11:54 PM

Sorry, but I have to add my snippy remark. After working for a month at a vet's office where I get to smell the stench of skin and bone being chopped off with a laser and see the little toes and nails sitting on the operating tray, I'm MORE than entitled to an opinion!!

If I knew what declawing was and I wanted a kitten, but my mom said it would happen only if it were to be declawed...I'd move out, educate my mother on declawing and get a kitten once I could give it the home it deserved. Believe it or not...not EVERYONE declaws or will declaw those four kittens. You are NOT doing it a favor by "saving" it...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

aly

09-22-2003, 12:02 AM

As far as getting off topic, I think it is sometimes absolutely necessary. I applaud the people who speak up for the voiceless animals. Many of us do shelter work and see terrible sights on a DAILY basis. I would like to see some of you go through that and then try to keep your mouth shut when you see something happening that could be prevented with some education.

With that said, I agree that bashing someone is not the way to go about it. I am sorry you felt attacked, Audrey. I don't want to attack you further. I just want to ask you to watch a video of a declawing procedure being done to a kitten. Or at least a video of the recovery when the kitten wakes up. It is one of the worst things I have ever seen in my life. I think that may change your mind about it.

I have 4 cats (3 of them under a year old) running all over my house with their claws. My furniture is all unharmed. I have some mini scratching posts downstairs and a big one upstairs. I've trained all the cats that is where they go to scratch. They actually like returning to the same place to do it anyway.

moosmom

09-22-2003, 06:55 AM

AMEN KELLY!!!!

twirlbird

09-22-2003, 07:52 AM

Slleipnir worked in a vet clinic for 4 months-hmmm feb to june ok mebbe 5 months- so she has seen what goes on in a declawing surgery. Declawing is also pretty common here, so chances are they will get declawed or atleast one will.

And people for the love of God this post is not about declawing, you have made your points clear, but in the end its her decision. THE TOPIC OF THIS POST IS LONG OR SHORT FUR--for those of you who cant remember

bisi.cat

09-22-2003, 08:15 AM

Please figure this:
There are currently living 6,8 Million cats (!) in German Households and all have their claws as declawing is (like in most European countries) illeagal...we even don't know "soft paws" over here...it's not that we're living in scratched mess homes over here, but it's just that we accept that cats come with claws...
I have lots of friends having cats and dogs (no problem the cats have claws), I have friends with cats and antiques (no problem the cats have claws), I have friends with cats and kids (no problem either)...do you think you have different cats over there than we have, or why is it that declawing is no issue here?!

I think even if you would have only No-Kill Shelters (like we have), do you think the declawing would stop?! Lots of you argument that rather the option of having a cat declawed is better than having a cat euthanzied is what you make accept declawing...do you think the attitude would change if there would be the option of having a cat declawed or having it in a No-Kill Shelter!?

Still I think there's no real reason for this procedure...unlike spaying/neutering (which was also mentioned as a surgery on cats) declawing doesn't serve the cat, it only serves the humans...

I feel so strongly about this issue (and most of the European Pet Talkers do, too), because we live with our cats and their claws...and it works!!!

Please again, I don't want to offend anyone, but I still wonder why some people just live with cats and claws, while it is such a huge problem for others...

PayItForward

09-22-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by bisi.cat
do you think you have different cats over there than we have, or why is it that declawing is no issue here?!

Please again, I don't want to offend anyone, but I still wonder why some people just live with cats and claws, while it is such a huge problem for others...
I think the world is spilt into three sorts of people:-

1: People who has little or no knowledge about Declawing but Declaw following vets advice or because they simply thought it had to be done.

2: People who have been educated about Declawing issues and are against Declawing.

3:People who have been educated about Declawing issues and are still for Declawing.

---------------------------------

Type one person needs educating on the problems disadvantages of declawing. This will prevent kittens being spayed and declawed at the same time, as a routine operation.
I DON'T BLAME ANY CAT OWNERS WHO HAD/HAS CAT(S) DECLAWED BEFORE THEY UNDERSTOOD THE PROCEDURE.

Type two people are perfect just the way they are ;)

Type Three people know the problem of declawing but seem to think the potential problems caused by Declawing won't happen to their cats and that declawing is essential. Though I have observed that often no concrete reason is given as to WHY this is so necessary. (Is spending 5 minutes training a cat to use a scratching post such a problem ?) :(

This thread is a perfect example, despite having no need to declaw a cat, that is probually what will happen (though I hope we don't hear about it)

But sadly until the USA making Declawing illegal, these type three people who know the facts and still want to declaw,will still exercise their right to torture and mutilate innocent cats, until this right is removed by law.

All we can do is educate Type 1 people, try to educate type 3 people (and often fail as these people know the facts and still want to go ahead with this procedure) and hope the USA will ban declawing sooner rather than later.

PS. Removing a persons fingers at the first knuckle is a description of torture & mutilation in my book. Just because the vets will charge to perform this action on a cat, doesn't make it right.....Remember even hitmen charge !!!!

slleipnir

09-22-2003, 09:32 PM

lol..Ok. Aly, I don't need a video, I've seen it done many times.

Also. You ppl seem to think I'm all for this. Like I'm over joyed at doing it. Like I couldn't care less for the safty of my cat. Your wrong. Maybe you should know how much I truely love and want cats..When I was a kid, I ALWAYS wanted a kitten. My dad doesn't like them so I could never have one. When I was a little older, my mom said I could have one. I was so excited by this new. So, for my b-day, my mom and dad always got me to write a list of things I want. So in huge letters I wrote KITTEN!!!! Thats all I wanted.. I didn't care if I didn't even get anything for x-mas..I found out later I couldn't get one till I got Smitten. I will admit at the time, I didn't know anything about declawing. I was just happy to have my kitten. I didn't know anything bad could happen. So, she is declawed.

I don't like how you ppl use 'educate'..I know a lot about it, so please stop using the word. My dad even printed more stuff off for me. I read it. However it didn't mention anything about 'stretching' problems and what not. Just that its a pointless operation and isn't a good thing. It has health risks along with it, but what doesn't?

Moving out isn't an option. My cats will be better taken care of if left at my moms. I know I couldn't afford a place right now and have pets.

I am not 'for' declawing. I don't like it, and its not something I'm proud to do. I do think/know it will cause pain to the cat unneccessarily. However, I don't think I'm being cruel. I feel if the kitten would go to a good home, not be declawed, then its better for it that way. Unfortunatly, I know ppl. When I worked at the vet clinic, there was a lot of cats being declawed. Its more then likely it gets declawed anyway. Or, it be discarded like an object when its not a 'cute kitten' That will never happen. You ppl only seem to see one side of this, and its your side. I can go over and see your point, but you WON'T see mine. You don't want to, or even try to understand mine. Why can't you just think of how well this kitten will be taken care of and how much it will be loved? Isn't that really the most important?

I'm finished with the topic. Pay says "This thread is a perfect example, despite having no need to declaw a cat, that is probually what will happen (though I hope we don't hear about it) " when this topic wasn't ment to be anything but about those kittens. So, its not a perfect example at all. You guy brought it up, not me. You refuse to step in my shoes, so why should I step in yours?

We only have one shelter here, and unfortunatly it is a kill shelter, so bisi, whenever that happens maybe I'll change my mind.

When working at the clinic, a new vet came in. She showed me this other way in which she declaws. The other vet does the usual, taking the scalpal and cutting out the nail at the first joint, then glueing the paws. She however, did it a little different (now, I'm not saying this is any better) but instead of taking out the whole joint, she just cuts out the claw and the part which makes it grow in) which yes, still removes the claw, but is a bit better.

Gina: Because of its long fur :(

I will post pictures of it when I get it. If this topic is brought up again, I will delete *yes, delete -shock-* the thread and move on from the cat section. If this topic means that much to you then I won't bother you with my kitten, cause obviously the subject is more important.

(and yes, maybe not all of them, or maybe even any of them will be declawed..that could be because the owners are too poor however..I guess it won't be fixed either..so another litter is brought into the world...or, maybe they will all get declawed, maybe only 2..who knows. So don't go telling me I'm not 'saving' it, you make it seems that the claws are more important then its life or happiness. You ppl say you work at shelters, so you know how many cats go in..So yes, I do believe I'm 'saving' it because it will never need a second home.

I'm done with this topic, if it makes you feel better to keep on posting about how you disagree, and how I'll ruin its life and make it so unhappy then go ahead. But maybe you can try being a little more open minded and see it from a different angle.

http://unavoidable.net/smitts.jpg
God forbid if he ends up like this cat..I mean, shes obviously in pain, suffering and unhappy..clearly a horrible ruined life. Yeaah. She is quite the oppsite actually. Very playful as well.

Kfamr

09-22-2003, 09:41 PM

Audrey , Just nevermind what people say. I've learned you have to ignore most remarks from people on here and just remember the positive ones.

I hope you get your kitty, and even when you do, post posts of pictures. Don't let people put you down and if they are STILL doing it after what's done is done, then that's just them being immature. And, like I said, Ignore it.

NoahsMommy

09-22-2003, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by slleipnir
lol..Ok. Aly, I don't need a video, I've seen it done many times.
Um....ewwww! You've SEEN it and STILL think its OK???? I gave you way too much credit before this...

I don't like how you ppl use 'educate'..I know a lot about it, so please stop using the word. My dad even printed more stuff off for me. I read it. However it didn't mention anything about 'stretching' problems and what not. Just that its a pointless operation and isn't a good thing. It has health risks along with it, but what doesn't?
Educate...I personally used that word for you to share what declawing was with your mother. Is "learn", "teach", "tell" better? :rolleyes: If you are offended we are saying YOU are uneducated and you really ARE on declawing...and you STILL think its OK. I still with my idea that you are NOT educated.

Um...what????? Your dad doesn't want to declaw it? Does he want to? I don't see why your dad would be printing out information for you, specifically. Is he for it and trying to convince you?

I am not 'for' declawing. I don't like it, and its not something I'm proud to do. I do think/know it will cause pain to the cat unneccessarily. However, I don't think I'm being cruel. I feel if the kitten would go to a good home, not be declawed, then its better for it that way. Unfortunatly, I know ppl. When I worked at the vet clinic, there was a lot of cats being declawed. Its more then likely it gets declawed anyway. Or, it be discarded like an object when its not a 'cute kitten'
So, EVERYONE that will adopt those kittens will declaw it? Interesting...is that something that is "done" where you live? Everyone where you live has $300+ to throw around to be spent on cat abuse??

You ppl only seem to see one side of this, and its your side. I can go over and see your point, but you WON'T see mine. You don't want to, or even try to understand mine. Why can't you just think of how well this kitten will be taken care of and how much it will be loved? Isn't that really the most important?
OK, your side...
"I want a kitty so much. The only way I can get a cat is to concede to what my parents say and I'll get it. Regardless of what it is, I'm willing to do anything to this cat so that I can have it and love it."
Am I close???? We all know what its like to want something.

When working at the clinic, a new vet came in. She showed me this other way in which she declaws. The other vet does the usual, taking the scalpal and cutting out the nail at the first joint, then glueing the paws. She however, did it a little different (now, I'm not saying this is any better) but instead of taking out the whole joint, she just cuts out the claw and the part which makes it grow in) which yes, still removes the claw, but is a bit better.
If this is the vet you are taking the kitten to for its declaw, please just have them do it the right way. This procedure almost guarantees horribly painful ingrown nails coming from the bone. :(

NoahsMommy

09-22-2003, 11:25 PM

I need to add a few things on this subject:

Education: www.declawing.com

Just because people don't "see" a difference in their cats, doesn't mean there isn't one. Ever hear that cats don't show signs of weakness or illness because they fear they'll be attacked/killed? Hmmmm.....yep, even pampered house cats.

People don't always (if ever) show what they are really feeling. Animals do the same. HOW do you know your cats aren't traumatized?? If I took your front line defense...no wait, if YOUR MOM, no...your only means of survival took your only defense, how would you feel?????

Now that I work for a vet, I am EVEN MORE against it. (I didn't think that was possible!)

I get to see these babies stumbling around because of their bandages, wincing in PAIN when they try to get up, crying if moved.

I get to SMELL the scent of burning flesh from the amputation because the vet I work for uses a laser.

I get to answer the phone calls and listen to how freaked out the humans are that their cats paws are bleeding everywhere.

I then, get to check those people in and again, see those poor furballs. In pain, again!!!

I also get to see people bring in their cats AGAIN to have the back paws declawed because, "For SOME reason, my cat is biting me more and using his back claws to REALLY get me!!" (idiots!!) Last week, we had to hear a Bengal cry the entire day, growl at anything that passed his cage and wince in pain so much, he about fell over. Of all cats to do that do...

**********************************************
For those of you NOT against it, you need to spend a day in a vets office to really see what these furkids go through.

To me, its quite obvious that this is cruel, uneducated behavior:

#1 I'm a cat, everything in my being makes me use my claws for everything from the second I'm born.

#2 I grow up a bit and KNOW in my heart, my front paws, just like a human's hands, are my main defense against everything.

#3 I also have an inate desire to scratch. You know, so I can stretch, relieve stress, develop muscle and keep my nails healthy by removing the old ones. (AN ACT I WAS PROGRAMMED TO DO)

#4 Then....I'm old enough to be fixed (whatever that means! ) and I wake up in pain cause my paws hurt. I can't clean them, I can touch them, I can't even MOVE them! A few days later, I can see them, but now I can't scratch, it hurts to walk, it hurts to use my litter box.

#5 A week or so pass and I finally realize my main source of protection is GONE!!! What do I do? I'm not safe...what if something tries to get me?

#6 Guess what I found???? My back paws not only have claws too, but my back legs are stronger and I have MORE power!! All I have to do is hold on to my attacker with my nice, sharp teeth and BAM!! I'm protected!!!

Hope I don't get sent to the pound or kitty heaven cause now, I'm a "biter"!

**That was taken from TheCatSite.com...it was two posts I wrote on there regarding declawing.

I honestly am not trying to offend you, I promise. I may be coming accross pretty harshly, but its because of what I've seen at work and in my life so far. You have no idea how many cats get euthanized because they bite after their "standard" declaw...or how many get taken to the shelter. Its sickening, unneccesary and WRONG!!! That's where I'm coming from...please understand that....

micki76

09-22-2003, 11:41 PM

As a person who owned cats most of her life (until recently), I personally think that the naivety that this is not a cruel and painful procedure, is pitiful. We all know how bad this is. Why can’t it be outlawed here as in Europe?
Would you debark your dog? It’s the same reasoning, you know. It’s completely for YOUR benefit, not for the animal. It saddens me when people do something so painful to their family member just to protect the sofa. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Kater

09-22-2003, 11:53 PM

Have you ever considered that perhaps Smitten's aggressive behavior is a negative side effect of being declawed? Well it is a very strong possibility. Not all kitties act the way you describe Smitten here:
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7707

Please reconsider declawing this innocent kitten. Claws are just part of being a kitty guardian!!!!

2kitties

09-23-2003, 08:33 AM

Everything you've posted is contradictory. You say you know declawing is bad. You say you are against declawing. You say know it's a painful procedure... but still you're gonna do it anyway.
Also, your main excuses to do it are:
1. My mommy won't let me have a cat unless I mutilate it, and I want one so bad I'll do anything to get one. - yea, that sounds like you're mature enough to own and care for an animal:(
and:
2. If I don't do it somebody else will anyway.

In life, we have two choices: Be a part of the problem or a part of the solution. I guess we can see which part you've chosen.

slleipnir

09-23-2003, 12:04 PM

lol. I don't know why I both coming back to this thread lol.

Noahs:
Please re-read what I wrote and stop saying I think its ok like I think its a good thing. Should I put it this way. When you send your cat in to have its uterus, does it help this particular cat? No, it doesn't. But it helps its future cats..so why does that make it ok? It does NOTHING to your cat other then sever pain. If you want to keep telling yourself its for a reason then go ahead.

Also, my dad couldn't care less about this subject, he printed it off for me. Not to convince me to do it or not to. He only did it because I was upset because of you ignorant ppl.

Perhaps I could quote genesis "God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.'"

I really stopped caring what you think of me. If you truely think I'm doing this to be mean then go ahead because again, your only looking at it one sidded. I however do not think I'm being unrealistic because the truth is I'm not the only one who does it. My dad tells me 'Is it really better for the cat to not have claws, or to be killed? Or maybe it will have a home where it has claws and is an outdoor cat and is happy, or maybe the other person will declaw it it anyway, or, maybe it will be left somewhere as a stray'

Noah: Yes, I have seen it, no I don't think its pretty, but I have also seen spaying which I feel is a lot more painful esp. when it doesn't help the cat..(I don't care if it helps by preventing future cats, it still doesn't help this cat. It just makes you ppl feel better by thinking of it that way)

Kater: That was like 2 yrs ago lol. She was just playing however, at the time I thought she was just being evil. I can tell in her behavior that it is different from if she sees a unfarmilliar cat lets say.

You ppl expect me to see things how you see it, that declawing its 100% wrong regardless. Yet, some of you have declawed your cats but now say its bad..even though you've had more then one. So how does that make you better then me?

I'm going to ask Karen to close this thread. I'm tired of this discusion getting no where. Maybe if you'd think of it from my side..even though you say you do, like " My mommy won't let me have a cat unless I mutilate it, and I want one so bad I'll do anything to get one" which is not how I think at all so grow up. You ppl say I'm immature, when your the ones ranting on like children. Theres no maturaty issue here. I'm more then mature enough to care for my animals. I have a job and pay for them myself, they get all the love and attention they need..again, I'm sorry that for your pets thats not the #1 issue to you. Poor things

slleipnir

09-23-2003, 12:17 PM

BTW, Smitten still acts as if she has claws. Perhaps I will tape her and I playing, she sits down, and swats at me with her front paws. She kneeds at the door frames. I wouldn't say unprotected as shes an indoor cat. Besides, her back claws and teeth make up for it.

nodgeness

09-23-2003, 12:28 PM

Once again I come into this thread annoyed.
Annoyed why ? you ask.
BECAUSE THIS ISN"T WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT!
Stick w/ the thread. If you want the topic to be declawing start a new thread.
If you want to answer in this thread stick w/ the topic.

In this thread the original question by slleipnir was

Do you think they'll have long fur? Or is it too earlyl?

& the other thread was about kitty names & whether we thought she should get a male kitty or a female kitty to go w/ her older female cat.
Do you think her questions got answered?

2kitties

09-23-2003, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by slleipnir
When you send your cat in to have its uterus, does it help this particular cat? No, it doesn't. But it helps its future cats..so why does that make it ok? It does NOTHING to your cat other then sever pain. If you want to keep telling yourself its for a reason then go ahead.

Actually, with each heat cycle, an animal's chance of reproductive cancers increases. No spayed female has ever died during childbirth. And, no neutered male has ever died from testicular cancer. So spaying and neutering does, in fact, help the animal.

Uabassoon

09-23-2003, 01:31 PM

When you send your cat in to have its uterus, does it help this particular cat? No, it doesn't.

Umm you might need to do some more research on this. I know that you think you are so "educated" on all these procedures, but spaying does in fact help the cat. It greatly reduces the chances of serveral types of cancer. So hmm, a few days of pain or years of pain and dealing with medicines, chemo, a shortenend lifespan... yeah you need to read up more because spaying does help the cat!

aly

09-23-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by slleipnir

I have a job and pay for them myself, they get all the love and attention they need..again, I'm sorry that for your pets thats not the #1 issue to you. Poor things

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

The reason we are all posting is because of our love for animals. If we didn't love them so much, we could shrug this off.

For the most part, people on this thread have given their educated opinions backed up by facts. A couple of the posts are harsh yes, but I really don't think this thread is out of hand at all.

BTW, spaying a cat is NOT more painful than declawing by any means! The cat has to stay at the vet clinic for at least 3 days for a declaw surgery, and for a spay they can go home the same day (or the next day in some cases). The effects and pain from declawing could last years and years. No, it doesn't always, but there is a good chance that it could. 90% of the cat bites that I have received at the shelter have been from declawed cats. I've seen sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many people dumping their cats off after a declaw surgery because of the complications and behavioral problems that resulted.

I guess what I don't understand is why you won't at least try Softpaws or scratching posts. If it is because of a rule by your parents, you might try educating them and asking if you can explore ALL alternatives for the kitten.

slleipnir

09-23-2003, 02:26 PM

Because, my mom says she wants it done. I don't have zillions of dollars to keep ordering softpaws from the US for many yrs.

And all I ment by the spaying thing, is that wild animals don't have that, so thats the way god made them, just like the claws. Rufus was never neutered and never had heath issues. He was the healthest dog I knew.

My mom had a hysterectomy, which she said was the very painful. I don't see how thats any diff from a cat other then we get more meds.

And I'm sorry that it doesn't seem that way Aly. But to me it seems you ppl would rather a chance the kitten ends up in a bad home then a for sure good loving home. Smitten is spoiled rotten and loved to death..she plays and does everything but scratch furnature like normal cats

aly

09-23-2003, 02:58 PM

I guess just imagine getting your uterus removed .. then imagine getting your fingers and toes cut off to the first knuckle. You would not be able to walk very well, you couldn't tie your shoes, everything you do would hurt.

Cats and dogs bounce back VERY quickly from being spayed.

Kater

09-23-2003, 03:11 PM

The Association of Veterinarians for Animal Rights (AVAR) has stated that “declawing is generally unacceptable because the suffering and disfigurement it causes is not offset by any benefits to the cat. Declawing is done strictly to provide convenience for people.”

A cat spay prevents a cat from going into heat & prevents pregnancy but additionally to the individual cat's advantage it also...
-prevents the cat from getting uterine infections later in life
-significantly helps prevent the cat from getting breast cancer later in life

Declawing is not a "minor" surgery comparable to spaying and neutering procedures, it is 10, separate, painful amputations of the distal phalanx at the joint (disjointing).
from http://www.cowtowncats.com/Declawing%20Your%20Cat.htm

Please do not even try to compare the two.

micki76

09-23-2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by aly
I guess just imagine getting your uterus removed .. then imagine getting your fingers and toes cut off to the first knuckle. You would not be able to walk very well, you couldn't tie your shoes, everything you do would hurt.

Cats and dogs bounce back VERY quickly from being spayed.

Speaking as someone who has had their uterus and all female reproductive organs removed, yes it was not comfortable. But would I rather have all my fingers and/or toes cut off at the last joint? Heck no! I don’t miss the uterus, but the ends of my fingers and/or toes would be very difficult to live without. Not having a uterus has only benefited me (no more periods, no cramps, no more cancer), but removing my fingers and/or toes at the first knuckle would be an enormous hassle in life and make even the smallest tasks terribly difficult.

moosmom

09-23-2003, 03:21 PM

Thank you Micki76! You took the words right outta my mouth!!

I also had all my plumbing removed 5 years ago. It was uncomfortable for approximately 3 weeks. Do I miss it?? Heck no. I also don't miss all the other stuff that goes along with it.

I think Aly is trying to compare apples to oranges here.

slleipnir

09-23-2003, 03:28 PM

Me speaking really is pointless isnt it? lol. I asked Karen to close the thread. If you have something to say you can PM me

micki76

09-23-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by slleipnir
Me speaking really is pointless isnt it? lol. I asked Karen to close the thread. If you have something to say you can PM me

I don’t see any point in closing the thread except that you won’t have to see the good points that we’ve all made against this. Topics often go off subject. I personally get annoyed when someone starts a topic and that the thread they started [I]may possibly[/b] be controversial or go OT and then ask for the thread to be posted when it does just that. If you don’t want to read it, then don’t read it. Let it die a normal death and let people vent about a subject that they feel very strongly about. Perhaps it should be moved to the Doghouse instead? I may be in the minority here, but I don’t feel that a thread should be closed or deleted when others have posted in it unless things have gotten way out of hand and people are being unusually cruel or nasty. IMO, that’s not the case here.

Logan

09-23-2003, 03:43 PM

Audrey, I just saw this thread (and read the whole thing) for the first time. What I would like to say is "good luck" on the new kitten. I know you will do whatever you can to make sure that he/she has the best life possible!!! :) The babies are precious, and I'm glad one of them will find a home with you.

2kitties

09-23-2003, 03:46 PM

It is not pointless for you to speak. But you seem to be talking in circles. You contradict yourself over and over. Did you expect this declaw/no spay thing to go over well here?
All this declaw stuff is about your mom not wanting the cat to have claws. You say you know it isn't good, but you want the cat so badly you'll do it anyway. You have talked yourself into believing it is no big deal. What if your mom didn't want the cat to run around, would you remove a leg? Or if she didn't want it to chew things? Would you pull its teeth? Yes, my points are exaggerated, but they are one in the same. And you know that spaying and neutering is very healthy for an animal- we didn't have to tell you that.

You say you can't move out financially with the animals. But, why not prioritize and save money, work on an education and a career so you can move on your own and be a self-sufficient adult. Then you can give a good home to the animals.

I seriously think you would do right by any animal. I can see that you love them alot. I just think you are letting your desire for a kitten right now overwhelm what you know to be right. When you can care for the cat YOUR WAY, I think it will be awesome. But your mom's way is wrong. Soft paws aren't that expensive. If you can't affored them, what will you do if the kitten gets ill and needs expensive veterinary care?

slleipnir

09-23-2003, 03:53 PM

I do, because this wasn't the original content of MY thread. I'm not deleting it, so your points are still here for you all to look at. Feel free to start a new declawing thread with all your points, as long as it doesn't involve me.

As for my point, for the last time. I don't think its good no, and contrdicing as it is, I don't care. I seriously, honost to god, feel like the kitten would benefit from me adopting it. If it was just getting declawed then left like I didn't care about it, no, I wouldn't get one. I asked my mom, again, about it. A scratching post I said. I told her lots of ppl train them to use it. She said she just can't afford to replace all her furnature again hwen she just bought new stuff. She says she doesn't think its cruel. She says whats cruel is animals being beating or abused, animals left to die somewhere or just abandoned, animals being thrown off bridges to drown, animals neglected any attention, starved or whatever, THAT is cruel. I agree, however I don't think declawing is good either. I just feel that its very likely the cat has a life l ike that. You say you work in shelters and hundreds of cats are there, so obviously ppl throwing away cats is something that happens a lot!! I would rather not see that, as I'm sure you are too! I'm going to talk to my vet before getting one. My mom is good friends with her, so she wouldn't lie about it just for money. You would have to know her, shes not that kind of person. If she truely believes the kitten has a better chance of having a better life with someone else, I won't get one. I just wish you ppl would understand why I'm doing this and I'm not trying to be mean or cruel. I know I can give this kitten a good home. Look at smitten, she has everything a cat would want, lots of good food, a warm place to live/sleeps, tons of attention, being able to go to the vets whenever needed either for checkups or if shes sick. I will do anything for her, I love her. I just think thats better then being left to get your own food, starving, cold and wet somewhere..or being in a cage..thats what freaks me out. Even more then declawing. I can't STAND that so many animals die every year for no reason it seriously makes me want to cry because I can't save them. I'm NOT doing this to be mean!

slleipnir

09-23-2003, 03:54 PM

No spay? No, I planned on having it spayed..don't know where that came from..

nodgeness

09-23-2003, 06:23 PM

Ok, I pulled this commemt from another thread. The one about banning declawing in CA. The comments in blue were what upset me as you will see. I'm posting this, though it should have nothing to do w/ the thread it kind of does.
It's comments like this that upset me! I'll explain why @ the bottom of the blue.
We know that there are a few individuals who will always declaw their cats. Their own personal convenience and the safety of their belongings is their top priority, and whether or not it causes suffering to the cat is not a significant concern. (Whether they should have a cat at all is a debate for another time!)
Fortunately, most people truly love their feline companions and want to do what's best for all concerned. If you are one of these wonderful people (and if you've read this far, we're pretty sure you are!), please think carefully about this beautiful little animal who trusts you and relies on you for her very existence. Please make the humane choice - and DO NOT DECLAW!

Here's why
1. Statements like that assume people declaw cats for their own personal convenience. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. example: Rental property sometimes require it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who move from a house to a rental place. Banning declawing would leave 1 option & that is to get rid of their beloved cat. Which leaves a once happy cat w/ out it's family & in a cage.
2. Statements like that also imply people who choose the option of declawing their cat don't truly love thier animal. FALSE!!!! My cats are treated just like a member of the family. Please don't anyone respond would you take your kids & have part of their finger removed. You don't see kids in little cages & I also don't pay a deposit to keep kids @ my place.
3. I thought long & hard about getting Bernie declawed before i decided to have it done. I didn't choose declawing for convenience or for safety of my belongings as implied by the above article. I was nothing but concerned for my Bernie when I made the decision.
These articles/statements are nothing but judgmental statements. I don't have to justify why I opted to have Bernie declawed but everyday when I look @ my kitties I FEEL WONDERFUL that they are not in some horrible cage watching people come & go picking other animals to take home. My babies are at home w/ me where they are supposed to be.
Some of the "potential complications" I'm sure can happen but my cats are healthy. Also declawed cats stretch the way they are supposed to. My cats stretch just like they always have.

2 more things.
1. Of course there are going to be potential complications of declawing but, aren't there potential complications w/ just about everything we humans do? Aren't there potential complications of having animals teeth cleaned, spayed/neutered? There are potential complications everytime you knock an animal or human out.

2.Please make the humane choice - and DO NOT DECLAW!
Is it more humane to put a healthy animal to sleep &/or keep a healthy animal in a cage? This is what happens!

aly

09-23-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by nodgeness

1. Statements like that assume people declaw cats for their own personal convenience. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. example: Rental property sometimes require it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who move from a house to a rental place. Banning declawing would leave 1 option & that is to get rid of their beloved cat. Which leaves a once happy cat w/ out it's family & in a cage.

Not every rental place requires it. There are MANY options when moving into a rental place so why not move somewhere that doesn't require it?

When calling for Landlord approval at the shelter for potential adopters, when they tell me the cat has to be declawed, I ask to speak to the manager. I also send them more information than they ever wanted to know. I'm happy to say you CAN change their minds.

Originally posted by nodgeness

2 more things.
1. Of course there are going to be potential complications of declawing but, aren't there potential complications w/ just about everything we humans do? Aren't there potential complications of having animals teeth cleaned, spayed/neutered? There are potential complications everytime you knock an animal or human out.

2.Please make the humane choice - and DO NOT DECLAW!
Is it more humane to put a healthy animal to sleep &/or keep a healthy animal in a cage? This is what happens!

1. There are in fact risks in everything. That is where you measure the risks versus the gain and look at the statistics. There are a lot more possible complications from declawing than from spaying. Also, why would you risk the complications from declawing when it is an unnecessary procedure?

2. I'm having trouble understanding the logic of either the cat is declawed or it will end up dead on the street or in a shelter cage :confused: My cats all have claws and are alive and well (indoor only I might add).

Kater

09-23-2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by nodgeness
Also declawed cats stretch the way they are supposed to. My cats stretch just like they always have.
The damage would not likely be visible to you. Cats are very good at hiding pain!!!

The Cat’s Claws
Unlike most mammals who walk on the soles of the paws or feet, cats are digitigrade, which means they walk on their toes. Their back, shoulder, paw and leg joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and nerves are naturally designed to support and distribute the cat's weight across its toes as it walks, runs and climbs. A cat's claws are used for balance, for exercising, and for stretching the muscles in their legs, back, shoulders, and paws. They stretch these muscles by digging their claws into a surface and pulling back against their own clawhold - similar to isometric exercising for humans. This is the only way a cat can exercise, stretch and tone the muscles of its back and shoulders. The toes help the foot meet the ground at a precise angle to keep the leg, shoulder and back muscles and joints in proper alignment. Removal of the last digits of the toes drastically alters the conformation of their feet and causes the feet to meet the ground at an unnatural angle that can cause back pain similar to that in humans caused by wearing improper shoes.
www.declawing.com

Originally posted by nodgeness
1. Of course there are going to be potential complications of declawing but, aren't there potential complications w/ just about everything we humans do? Aren't there potential complications of having animals teeth cleaned, spayed/neutered? There are potential complications everytime you knock an animal or human out.
Yes, there are complications to anesthesia as well as short-term complications to most surgical procedures but the following SERIOUS complications indicate MUTILATION...

Post-surgical complications: Lameness, abscesses and claw regrowth can occur days or weeks or many years after surgery. In one study that followed cats for only 5 months after surgery, nearly 1/3 of cats developed complications from both declaw and tendonectomy surgeries (digital tendonectomy is a procedure whereby the tendons that extend the toes are cut; it’s sometimes promoted as an “alternative” to declawing).

Chronic Pain: It is impossible to know how much chronic pain and suffering declawing causes, because cats are unable to express these in human terms. However, we can get an idea by looking at similar procedures in people. Nearly all human amputees report “phantom” sensations from the amputated part, ranging from merely strange to extremely painful (about 40% of such sensations are categorized as painful). Because declawing involves ten separate amputations, it is virtually certain that all declawed cats experience phantom pain in one or more toes. In humans, these sensations continue for life, even when the amputation took place in early childhood; there is no physiological reason that this would not be true for cats. Cats are stoic and typically conceal pain or illness until it becomes overwhelming. With chronic pain, it may be that they simply learn to live and cope with it. Their behavior may appear “normal,” but a lack of overt signs of pain does not mean that they are pain-free.

Joint Stiffness: In declawed (and tendonectomized) cats, the tendons that control the toe joints retract after surgery, and these joints become essentially “frozen.” The toes can no longer be extended, but remain fully contracted for the life of the cat. In cats that have been declawed for many years, these joints often cannot be moved, even under deep anesthesia. The fact that most cats continue to make scratching motions after they are declawed is often said to “prove” that they do not “miss” their claws. However, this behavior could be equally well – or better – explained as desperate but ineffective efforts to stretch those stiff toes, legs, shoulders and backs.

Arthritis: Research has shown that, in the immediate post-operative period, newly declawed cats shift their body weight backward onto the large central pads of the feet, and off the sore toes. This effect was significant even when strong pain medication was given, and remained apparent for the duration of the study (up to 40 hours after the surgery). If this altered gait persists over time, it would cause stress on the leg joints and spine, and could lead to damage and arthritic changes in multiple joints. A recent study showed that arthritis of the elbow is very common in older cats. When contacted, the researchers admitted that they did not ask or record whether the cats were declawed, evidently preferring the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy so as not to anger those many veterinarians who make a lot of money from declawing.

And the list goes on to include litterbox problems, biting, other changes in personality, etc....
http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawdrjean2.html