James is here!

[Sevens]

Ok, James the dog has been dropped off at my house. He's being very submissive. Am I right to be chalking that up to him not really knowing us? He's never used a crate before, but he seems to be using that as his safety place.

Oh, I dunno, I'm probably just being an overprotective pet owner. I'm so used to Bailey being so affectionate with us, but I suppose he's never really had that before. He seems confused and worried, but Bailey seems to be ecstatic. She wouldn't stop giving him kisses for the first 20 minutes he was here.

Well, I am off to check on the pups again. It's been an extremely long day (we were at a wedding, the reception, the after party), I'm gonna get to bed.

I'll give you another update tomorrow. Hope you are all having a good night!

[lovemyshiba]

Yay!!!
Is it official, or just a trial run with James??

I'm sure you can chalk up his submissiveness to just being a little timid of his new place. It was an adjustment for him, I'm sure!!
Wonderful news that Bailey is giving him kisses--sounds like the will be great friends.

[KYS]

I agree with lovemyshiba,
He has to get use to you and his surroundings.
Can't wait to see updates. :)

[Sevens]

Just a trial run....we are taking care of him for the couple this week...and deciding if we want to keep him permanently or not.

Well, so far, he's being extremely timid. He's completely afraid of my husband. Bailey keeps barking at James trying to get him to play, but he won't move.

I put him in the crate last night and he wouldn't come out. I tried coaxing him out with treats and he wouldn't come out. I tried for almost an hour, cause I knew he needed to go out. Finally, I had to put the leash on him and pull him out of the crate.

After he was out, he was still timid, but he did go out and potty. When I brought him back in, he tried to go straight to the crate but the door was closed. He settled for laying down in a corner next to the crates.

He'll barely come out of the bedroom now. He would only eat when I brought the dishes to the door of the bedroom.

I keep trying to talk to him in a soothing voice and a happy high pitched voice. He's just so afraid. Every time we go to pet him, he acts like we are going to beat him or something.

We might try taking Bailey and James to the dog park today to see if he'd like that. He seemed to do ok there with the lady who's been taking care of him so far.

For anybody who's reading this, I REALLY need some more advice about dealing with a REALLY timid dog. This is a really different experience for me, because I've never dealt with a dog who wasn't at least somewhat confident

[lovemyshiba]

Do you know his background??
Was he abused ever??
If so, that may be the explanation for some of his actions.
Abbey retreated to her crate a lot when she first came to live with us, but always wanted to go out and potty and EAT!!!

I hope someone else can offer you some better advice.

[Tonya]

I don't have any good advice because most of my dogs have been outgoing. I have had some very timid cats, though. I would say just keep doing what you are doing. I think in time, you'll prove yourself to James.

[Sevens]

love my shiba, to answer your question, yes, the lady and her husband who have had him so far think he was abused. They think he has a definite problem with men, as he seemed to be afraid of her husband for a while. Also, he was hit by a car in front of their house, that is how they initially found him.

[clara4457]

Sarah Wilson has a very good article on her website, I think it would definitely be worth a read.

http://www.greatpets.com/home/dogs/behavior/common_problems/fear

and from Brian Killcommons.

http://www.greatpets.com/home/dogs/behavior/common_problems/fear/d_article.jsp?articleId=63

[clara4457]

Dealing with a very timid dog myself has taught me a few things. Let's take it from the dog's perspective.

I used to get (hit/chained/left alone/abandoned) at times. I am never sure if someone is going to (hit/chain/leave alone/abandon) me. Sometimes humans are nice, sometimes they are not.

I was hit by a car (boy did that hurt). Someone picked me up (boy did that hurt) and took me to someone else to fix me (boy did that hurt).

Someone took me home with them (I still hurt but it's not as bad). She seems to be nice, but other people have been nice before and still hurt me. She gives me food (it is hurting less) and pets (that's kind of nice) and water. I'm starting to get the hang of this - food, water and pets (this is kind of nice).

We went somewhere else and it's okay because the nice lady is still there. I kind of like the other dog - he's kind of nice. I'm a little nervous so I try to jump on the sofa to get away and he is still coming. I'm scared (what if he hurts me?) so I growl a little. I'm still okay because the nice lady is still here - the one that feeds and pets me.

Oh no - where did she go? I'm in a strange house with different humans - sometimes humans are nice, sometimes their not. I'm scared. I think I will crawl into the corner where no one can hurt me. She feeds me, but other humans have fed me and then hurt me. How do I know for sure? I think I better hang out here until I figure it out.

I know it can be frustrating, but the most important thing with a shy dog is patience. Calm, matter of fact and slow movements are the key. Let James come to you when he is ready, don't force him. Make sure he knows from day one that you are alpha but you are not going to (hit/chain/leave/abandon) him. If he wants to crawl in the crate, let him. Feed him there. Take him out without Bailey for a while. Be very matter of fact with him. It will take some time, but it is well worth it.

[CamCamPup33]

just give james some time. im sure that he will come around.. Just be really calm when your with him no sudden movements ect.. thats so sad.. how can people be so cruel with animals? :( james i hope you get to know them a little better :)

[wolfsoul]

Good for you for taking care of this poor baby! :D

Just stay really calm. Don't have company for a while. Make no sudden movements. Maybe you and him and Bailey could have a quiet time where you just sit there with them and stroke them both calmly. Let him get use to his surroundings, and then after a couple days, try walking him around out of the house. Maybe if he sees Bailey happt to go for walkies, he'll perk up a bit.

There was a time when I had to leave my dog Leather for a while. When I got her back, she seemed to have been hit. Everytime I put my hand in the air, she would squint and look away and shiver. So I held my hand up lots, and every time she thought I would hit her, I brought it down and stroked her. After a while she understood that no one would hurt her anymore.

Good luck! :)

[micki76]

Also just use a common everyday voice. This was key yo getting Millie to trust us and it never reinforced any unwanted behavior. We think a baby voice or a really soft voice will calm them down, but it reinforces behavior. Use a normal everyday talking tone, just a tad slower and calmer. Our behavior taught us this and Millie responded to it pretty quickly. We still use it in stressful situations. :) Also, try to let him get used to you first and when he trusts you, then you allow your husband in. All the while using the calm, but normal voice, telling James that everything's ok. Took a bit of time with Millie, but she's great now. Good luck!! :)

[clara4457]

Here is the difference a little time and patience can do

Penny Lane on her first day home - hiding under the table
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid61/p6d682db5120674ea3ef45bd63200af85/fc2794fa.jpg

Penny Lane several weeks after - look how relaxed and happy she is!!!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/p927fc8ec0026429f95063e4dbeeefd83/fc040f07.jpg

Now don't get me wrong - for every 2 steps forward there is one step back. Penny still gets spooked easily and the fight with Leo definitely didn't help, but when I see her relaxed and happy, it makes it all worth it.


And Micki76 is absolutely correct - using a calm everyday voice.

[Sevens]

Well, it was a really long day yesterday. He ran away from us twice, but luckily each time, I caught him.

I now have an even bigger problem. Bailey is peeing! I think it might be out of jealousy or something. When I go to pet him, she starts to get all up in his face, licking him. I try to give them both attention. When I do this, she just gets a look on her face, backs up and practically pees on him!:(

This happened 6 times yesterday! She's never done this before. He on the other hand, has not had one accident in the house.

My husband is soooo not liking this situation.:(

[Sevens]

My husband just called me at work....So, I REALLY think Bailey is jealous....

James is finally warming up to my husband a tiny bit this morning after I left for work. I had already taken Bailey and James out for a walk and they both did their business.

Bailey started barking at Brian because he was petting James, then she bit my husband (nip, not enough to draw blood), then she peed in the bedroom!

While my husband was cleaning the bedroom, BAILEY WENT IN THE KITCHEN AND PEED IN JAMES' FOOD DISH!

My mother in law said last night that she thought Bailey was doing the "any attention, even negative attention, is attention". But the thing is....we are still giving Bailey loads of attention!

**sigh** this is gonna be a long week.

[Sevens]

*bump*

[lovemyshiba]

Sounds like Bailey is a pee monster!!!
I'm sorry I can't help you out, this is a problem I've never dealt with. Before Kito was neutered, he went as far as actually peeing ON my mother in laws pom, Cody, because he was in Kito's territory, but I didn't know females did the same thing.

I hope someone here has some more advice for you.

[clara4457]

I'm so sorry that you are having some problems. I know how frustrating it is (and exhausting :eek: ) - again patience is it's own reward.

Since Leo and Penny got it to their fight, I have been doing a great deal of research on two dog dynamics and learning a great deal. As far as Bailey's peeing, I think it is definitely an attention getting device - makes no difference that you are giving him just as much attention - he wants it all!!! So ignore the peeing (clean it up of course :) ) but ignore it. Make sure both dogs work for everything - treats, pets, dinner, etc. Remember - YOU RULE THE ROOST. Make them sit before you feed them dinner, go out side, give a treat, give a pet.

Here is an article that I found helpful.

http://www.metrokc.gov/lars/animal/Educate/cassidy/dog/dog25.htm

I also found a great deal of help on the message board on Greatpets.com. If you go into the Dog problems board a great many well recognized trainers including Sarah Wilson herself post there. They provide excellent and no nonsense advice.

http://ubb.greatpets.com/6/ubb.x

Good Luck - and again PATIENCE

[Sevens]

It seems to be looking a little better. James is now venturing into the rooms he wasn't going in before....bathroom, kitchen, den, and computer room.

Bailey only had that pee session in the morning and one during the evening. Everything else she did outside.

Brian is really working on getting James used to him. James will now take treats from Brian (only if it is Pup-Peroni) and he actually sat on the couch last night and let Brian pet him.

James is also starting to let Bailey know when she is being obnoxious....he'll snap at her, but he has yet to actually get skin. It's just enough to let Bailey know and she jumps away.

Now she's starting to eat out of his bowl. If James doesn't eat all of his food, she will finish it for him. We kind of laughed and said "Well, Bailey's thinking....if peeing on him doesn't work on getting him out of my house, I'll starve him by eating all his food..." Silly girl:rolleyes:

Thanks for the advice and support everybody, I really appreciate it.:D

[CamCamPup33]

oh thats good news to here! :D :)

[Sevens]

I think I spoke too soon....Bailey was in RARE form this morning with my husband.

Bailey was trying to play with James, he just kept laying there. She peed almost on him, then my husband ran over to clean up the mess. While he was cleaning up the first pee, she ran over and peed in front of James' crate. Then while my husband was cleaning that, she did a huge dump on a shopping bag in the bedroom.

Then she ran into the den and peed on the rug next to the front door. All of this after she had already been let outside and did a #1 and #2.

The only reason I knew anything was wrong was because when I came home at lunch to let the dogs out, the apartment reeked of a combination of Clorox wipes, Pinesol, Febreze, and Nature's Miracle Odor Spray.

oh my god, this is gonna be a long week.....