Choke-chains: are they Cruel?

[Luv My Brando]

Long story short, I am very much AGAINST http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/mad.gif them. I think that they can be very cruel and can cause injury, even when dog owners have the best of intentions.

If you read my other topic today (March 14, 2001) "Who has pets with special needs?", I began to tell the story of my dog Brando whom we (my boyfriend and I) adopted from an animal shelter almost a year ago.

When we adopted him, we unknowingly purhased a standard nylon flat-buckle collar (NOT a choke-chain) and leash for him. After seeing how he wheezed, gagged and agonized during our first walk with him, we immediately purchased a body harness to lead him instead.

The dog behaviourist that I was meeting with in the past few months, indicated that his trachea appeared to have been damaged (she had seen the same thing with her own dog), from past owners having pulled and tugged most likely on a choke-chain. She had seen this exact type of damage before with dogs that had been "victims" to the choke-chain.


[This message has been edited by Luv My Brando (edited March 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Luv My Brando (edited March 14, 2001).]

[ilovehounds]

I to bought a nylon choke chain when I started Hannah on a leash, but I found that she was uncomfortable so I went and bought a harness and a regular collar instead.

I don't mind using it if I hook both rings in the leash snap that way it doesn't tighten up and ckoke.

I really hate when I see people using the choke chains with the pionts that stick into the neck (Im not sure what they are called)

[Luv My Brando]

I absolutely agree with you, "Ilovehounds."

I also disagree with the use of the "prong-collers" (or "pinch-collers" as one of the guys I work with called them).

In my opinion, if you are effectively training your dog, you shouldn't need these poking, pulling, pinching and choking methods at all.

[wolflady]

I agree that these prong collars look just dreadful. I can't imagine wanting to have that around MY neck!! Yikes!
It really is ashame when people use the choke collars in bad ways. I'm really not at liberty to say whether or not I support them (because our dog never had one), but I've seen and read some horror stories surrounding them.
Here is a story about a Rottweiler in Michigan that made my skin crawl...
http://www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/browse/view_article.gsp?c_id=366172&id_list=&cookied=T

DO NOT look at the pictures if you have a weak stomach or do not want to see the plight of this poor dog. But the story is there to read. It said that this dog was a stray, but someone had to have put that choke collar on her...

I just think people need to take responsibility and caution when using these collars. Many don't know of the hazards that they can cause when unsupervised. Someone may not think about what would happen if that collar got snagged on something and no one was around. I read somewhere (it might even have been here) that someone thought it would be a good idea to put warning labels on the collars in the store since they don't have them currently. I think that is a good idea. I know many people who love their dogs dearly, and they use a choke collar under supervision. I guess it depends on the person and the circumstances. Personally, I've never used one. I don't think I will choose to go that route to train my future dog either.

[Logan]

Depending on your obedience trainer's theory, you might be required to use a choke chain, but ONLY during training. Used correctly, choke chains and prong collars are not bad training tools. But I must say again, only when used correctly. We have had a lot of success using the choke chain when training and walking. Quick pops are all it takes and the noise makes the correction, not the pop. Plus, our obeidience school required them for training purposes, but they fitted the dogs and showed us how to put them on properly. You always form a "P" shape and place it over the dog's head. Then you can make your corrections in the proper manner. Neither Honey or Lilly have had a problem.

[*BaSim*]

I use a choke chain on Simba. I am not woried with him pulling and choking himself becayse he is very well trained. It doesnt see to bother him. And i dont like the nylon color becayse when ever he wear thim it rubs his neck and he gets a big red spot.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

We will never put a choke chain on any of our dogs, never, ever. Daisy and Perry wear a collar around the house, but when we go out they always wear a body harness for safety. We had a Rottweiler a long time ago and my husband took her to obedience school and they required choke chains. After a few weeks of seeing those poor dogs choke we decided it was cruel and unusual punishment and would never use a choke chain again ever.

[Logan]

I want to say one more thing. If not used properly, the choke or what we call "correction collars" can cause harm, especially if they are left on a dog and become too small. But everyone of you who post on this site regularly know how I cherish my dogs and I would never, ever hurt them. They do not choke. I perform a correction when necessary and they no longer pull. And, we take the collars off when we are through training or walking. In fact, Honey is in agility training now, and is required to wear, not a correction chain, but a nylon collar, so she will not accidently be choked on a piece of equipment. Please understand that many folks use these collars with much success and would never be cruel to their dogs. They are like our own kids and NEVER, NEVER would we do anything to hurt them.

Sorry to go on and on, but I just wanted to reiterate my position.

Logan

[horse_1987]

Plain and simply, if used harshly, yes they are bad,very bad. But if used gently to train a strong dog, it is better then getting hurt and dragged off. ( I would never use one ) I was thoroughly disgusted when the trainers at the dog acadamie suggested my grandmother use a choke chain on her SHIH TZU! he only weighs 9 pounds!!!!


[This message has been edited by horse_1987 (edited March 14, 2001).]

[Pam]

Logan I had a similar experience regarding obedience school with my last two poodles. Choker chains were required and it was explained how to properly use them.....for correction only. They were used in class and when practicing at home only. As with anything, you must use caution. My husband (who was the main handler during the sessions) found that as soon as the chokers were put on the dogs they immediately respected the fact that they were on and acted accordingly....no straining against the leash, etc. I think everyone who posts here knows that we love our dogs and would never do anything to cause them harm. I worry when I see a choker around a dog who is running loose. That is a potentially deadly situation!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Logan, we all know how much you love your dogs and would never ever do anything to hurt them. I think there are good obedience classes and very bad classes. Unfortunately the trainer we had believed in what she called tough love, pulling on the choke chains to get the dogs attention. Most of the dogs were Rottweilers, and other big dogs, but big dogs hurt just like little dogs. We vowed after that experience never to use a choke chain on any dog again.

[KYS]

If a choke collar/prong is used correctly it should not harm your dog. The choke can be used as a training tool/for walking
strong dogs. If not used correctly
that can cause harm to the dog. It should Never be used as a regular collar.

I use a harness for my little dog,
because she pulls.
I use a thick Greyhound collar for my
female Akita and a choke collar
for my male.
I never leave either one of these collars on my dogs when they are not being walked.

[ilovehounds]

I thought I would add that here in Canada well in my town anyway it is against the law to have a choke collar on your dog unless it is being walked. I was visiting a friend in town one day and the dog controll officer took a dog away from a man because she found it walking down the street and some people were complaning, she was going to let him take it home but then she noticed a choke collar on him and she asked if he has that on all the time and the man said yes. She put the dog in the car and told him he could pick it up at the shelter in a couple of days that it was agaist the law to have a choke on a dog unless it is being walked. I was shocked because I wasn't aware of this at the time.

[*BaSim*]

ok everyone that i have known has used choke chains. I am getting a little mad because i feel like people are sayin i am wrong. Ok i do not want anybodey to get mad but i think choke chains r good. they are a good way to correct a dog. but then again everyone has their own opinions and i have mine.

[shais_mom]

BaSim, there is no reason to get mad, if you are using the collar correctly then you are doing nothing wrong.
I tried using a choke collar on Shai before I got the martingale collar and she pulled it apart, and got loose.
I would also never byy the nylon collar with the plastic buckle collar that snaps together. The humane society gave me one of those and then one day right in front of me Shai yanked on it and the chase was on!
I also tried a thick nylon collar that had a belt type buckle on it and she slipped it oiff over her head and off she went. (Is there a pattern here? http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif)
There are break away collars that pull apart if the dog gets caught in the brush or in a fight with another dog. But those scare me I agree whole heartedly with the principle but my dog would pull it apart and run like the wind!! I think they are something like the Chinook collar or something.
Ok, I just checked out the sight of the MI rottweiler and the other 2 dogs, Ellis and Duchess that were listed there. OH it makes be sick, Ellis the Rottweiler, I thought was covered in mud, but he was bald, no hair.
And Duchess, the dalmation, I can't even type what she went thru. People are soooo sick.

[This message has been edited by shais_mom (edited March 14, 2001).]

[Logan]

You are probably right, Jackie, and I have two strong dogs. My trainers NEVER tried tough methods either. In fact, they would reprimand the owner if they "yanked" on the dog's neck. It's only a quick "pop" that is ok.

Still can't walk them together, although I have tried!!! My problem with the flat collars and plastic buckles, which I would like to use at home just to keep id on my dogs, is that Honey will chew one off of Lilly's neck in less than five minutes!!!! I finally had to decide to keep the collars off of them at home in the yard, and just hope that they didn't get out of the fence!!!! Any ideas about what I could use, besides a chain or choke collar, that Honey can't chew through??

[This message has been edited by Logan (edited March 14, 2001).]

[KYS]

shais_mom,
I use a break away collar at home for my male dog.
When I only had one large dog, I never
had a problem with the nylon snap collars.
(I use a strong collar when the dogs are out in public.) The reason I tried the breakaway
is because my two large dogs would
grab eachother necks. My male dog
grabed my females collar when they were playing, and he injured her.
If there in the yard together she no longer wears a collar and he wears a break away. I lock my gates so they can not get out. (it bothers me not to have a collar on her, she is tatooed and I might get her chipped too.)

[Sudilar]

My two large GSDs do not wear any collar in the house or in my fenced yard. I do not want them getting caught on anything. However, when we go out for our daily walks, Killian (male, 110lbs) wears a choke collar. It works well. He doesn't pull on it at all. My 95lb. female wears a prong collar. She is VERY muscular and strong. If we encounter a loose dog, I must be able to control her. This rarely happens, so the prong collar does not affect her most of the time. I walk both dogs together. I weigh 100 lbs. As others have said, a choke collar or prong collar can be useful when used correctly. I was taught how to use them at obedience classes also.

[Corinna]

Ok I have to weight in on this. I have seen the worst and the best of the chain training collar (tip) it is only for use in training purposes. Some dogs are gentle enough to use the nylon,some are not. However I have different collars and harnesses(see harness questions earlier)It is so Merlin knows what we are going to be doing and what I expect of him. If a person knows how to use then its great. I had a neighbor when I moved here that had a chain training collar on her rottie and her sheparad I showed her somegrizzly photos i used in my classes it was a rot that got hung up as it tried to jump out of a truck. She puts them loose in the truck (which is another total lecture) the next day I found nylon solid collars on them. BaSim if you know how to use it properly go for it I say. Merlin is strong willed at his heeling when birds fly over so I have to use one on him any thing else he just ignores.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Originally posted by Logan:
You are probably right, Jackie, and I have two strong dogs. My trainers NEVER tried tough methods either. In fact, they would reprimand the owner if they "yanked" on the dog's neck. It's only a quick "pop" that is ok.

Still can't walk them together, although I have tried!!! My problem with the flat collars and plastic buckles, which I would like to use at home just to keep id on my dogs, is that Honey will chew one off of Lilly's neck in less than five minutes!!!! I finally had to decide to keep the collars off of them at home in the yard, and just hope that they didn't get out of the fence!!!! Any ideas about what I could use, besides a chain or choke collar, that Honey can't chew through??

[This message has been edited by Logan (edited March 14, 2001).]

[RachelJ]

A dog's size, temperment, and attitude are key in deciding if a choke chain should be used at all in training. It is my opinion that there are some dogs that not only do not need this device, it should not be used on them, ever. That said, this is a highly effective training tool that can get the attention and control of the bigger, stronger, and more assertive dog. There is one correct way to use a choke chain and various incorrect ways. One needs to be certain to use the correct method in order that the training tool is effective and not harmful to the dog. It is of the UTMOST importance that you know the right way to make a "correction" with the choke chain. I would never leave a choke chain on at any time other than a training session or walking.

There are a lot of dogs that cannot be controlled or trained without this device. I use it occasionally myself and know that with Hannah, one or two "corrections" immediately reminds her how to walk on a leash and who is in charge when we are walking. The alternative would be her pulling on the leash and gagging herself on her regular collar for the duration of the walk. For a larger dog the choke chain as a tool for control can be even more critical.
It is an asset to many dogs and their owners.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935:


Logan I understand your problem, and really I don't know the answer to biting off the collar. Our daughter-in-law has a male and female schnauzer and the female bites off every collar that the male wears. I'm stumped on that one!

[wolflady]

I've noticed that a lot of you with larger dogs have had to use the choke collar for training purposes. I suppose that may be something I have to look into when I adopt a Terv or GSD, since they are larger dogs than I have ever had. Since I had a smaller dog (eskie), she never needed it, but I agree if they are used properly, safely and for training purposes...then it's ok. I definitely agree that it's NOT something to be left on all the time because of the dangers and hazards that can quickly become an issue for the dog. So, I agree with Rachel, it just depends on the dog.

In a way, I suppose any collar could be a potential hazard. Now, please don't think that I'm against regular collars, because I'm not. My dog had a collar on all the time. I think all dogs should have them for identification purposes and for training and exercising. Just like most things around us, there are potential dangers (whenever you get into a car, there's a potential danger. This is the route I'm taking with this bit, so please don't be offended). A good friend of mine just had her dog pass away unexpectedly. I was so sad for her when she told me about it. I mean, these are the nicest people you'll ever meet and they love both of their dogs. The whole family (they have 2 kids too) was so distraught for quite sometime. Well, they have an outdoor run that the dogs are in when they are away. It's a really nice large run with grass and doghouses and stuff. The dogs are not chained up in the run. Well, a few weeks ago they came home to find their little dog had strangled itself on it's collar trying to get away from the fireworks their neighbors were setting. They found that out later. What a terrible thing to come home to! I can imagine how bad I would feel if I came home to find my 13 year old dog had killed itself! Why these neighbor people were setting fireworks that night is beyond me, but a lot of people mentioned to this guy that all the dogs were going crazy when this was going on. Since this accident, my friends have brought their other dog inside. They never imagined that something like that would happen. I probably wouldn't have either. It's a nice big run, the dogs have their collars on for identification purposes, just in case for some reason they escaped. They put the dogs out for the evening since they would be gone for several hours and wanted them to be able to potty. Who would have known about these other people setting off fireworks and scaring the dogs? They had their little dog cremated and put into a special urn. I could sympathize with her over the loss of her pet, but I couldn't really relate to the circumstances. It was devastating! I didn't really know what to do, but I sent her the story of the Rainbow Bridge, since she hadn't heard of it before.

Logan, sounds like you've found and option to the biting off the collar problem for now. I'm with Jackie in that I'm stumped on that one!! I would probably do the same thing in the house and in the yard, by leaving them off. Not really sure what kind of durable collars are out there since I haven't been in that dept for quite some time. Be sure to let us know if you find a solution!! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

[Rottie]

I disagree. If used correctly, a choke chain works wonders.

I got my male Rottweiler when he was 1 year old. A few months later we took him to obedience classes - on a choke chain, he pulled and lunged at his leash, and I couldn't even hold him back. The trainer gave him 3 large collar corrections when he went to sniff another dog. The fourth time, when we brought him up to another dog, he didn't even look at it. After that, he was a completely different dog! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/eek.gif I don't think we could have ever gotten the same results using a buckle collar or a harness.

The problem with choke chains are that they are misused. If the choke chain is put on correctly, the collar should tighten and then release. But if you put it on backwards, it will tighten and not release until you physically loosen it with your hands.

Also, most people do not know how to use a choke chain. You can't be constantly choking the dog, a quick pop works better.

Choke chains and pinch collars work well with my dogs, I am satisfied with them. I know many people don't like these collars because they view dogs as equal or even above humans. But dogs are just that - dogs. Even though we love them even more than humans sometimes, they are still dogs.

[Rottie]

Originally posted by KYS:
If a choke collar/prong is used correctly it should not harm your dog. The choke can be used as a training tool/for walking
strong dogs. If not used correctly
that can cause harm to the dog. It should Never be used as a regular collar.

I use a harness for my little dog,
because she pulls.
I use a thick Greyhound collar for my
female Akita and a choke collar
for my male.
I never leave either one of these collars on my dogs when they are not being walked.


Just a thought, but wouldn't you put a harness on your dog if you want it to pull? That's what they do with sled dogs.

[Logan]

Rottie,
I think that a lot of people feel like the harness is gentler to the dog, so their neck doesn't get the strain when they pull. I can just see mine in a harness pulling me all over the neighborhood though! Ha Ha! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif
A lot of people who I have met on the MSN Golden Retriever site have used what is called a Gentle Leader, with a lot of success. I think it prevents the dog from being quite so mobile, but I've never seen one used, and I know it wouldn't work with my obedience trainers as they are quite strick about equipment.

[Luv My Brando]

Originally posted by Logan:
Rottie,
I think that a lot of people feel like the harness is gentler to the dog, so their neck doesn't get the strain when they pull. I can just see mine in a harness pulling me all over the neighborhood though! Ha Ha! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif
A lot of people who I have met on the MSN Golden Retriever site have used what is called a Gentle Leader, with a lot of success. I think it prevents the dog from being quite so mobile, but I've never seen one used, and I know it wouldn't work with my obedience trainers as they are quite strick about equipment.

Logan,

Glad you brought up the Gentle Leader.

I just finished an introductory obedience training class with my dog. Interestingly enough, this training school that I attending had stopped using Choke-chains due to the fact that so many people were using them incorrectly or too harshly. They ONLY allowed the "Gentle Leaders" for traning.

The following website explains exactly what the "Gentle Leader" is and how it functions. http://www.gentleleader.com/intro.html

I used the Gentle Leader for the entire course and it was excellent! It doesn't hamper the dog's mobility whatsoever.

I recommend them to all doglovers- especially those looking for an alternative to the choke-chain.

[Logan]

Thank you for posting that website. I was picturing something totally different, thinking the legs were involved somehow. Obviously, there is another one out there that I have heard about, but got confused with the Gentle Leader.

[tatsxxx11]

It seems that most of us are really not so much at odds as to whether or not choke collars are effective. I think it is more their proper application and use that is the issue. I too know of several cases in which dogs were strangeled to death after having been left unattended with a choke collar in place. If used properly, in the "P" configuration, ("Uncle Matty" 1st taught me this!) as a training method, under supervision, I think they work very well in teaching "correction" in obedience training. I know many who are also having great success with the Halti-collar and Gentle Leader. Some, however, mistake these for also being able to act as a muzzle. They don't. A dog can still bite with them on. I know when Star was a puppy, but already very strong, I would never have been able to walk her comfortably without having trained her on a choke collar. (Maybe a Halti collar if they had been available) She would pull and strain so strenuously with a cloth collar and and would end up almost choking HERSELF; gasping for breath, and dragging me to the ground! After learning how to walk properly in obedience class with a choke collar (like was said; just a "pop" correction) she was fine after one class or two. Most importantly, the training class taught her to "heel" and obey other commands that keep her from pulling in the first place! Please just pass the word to anyone who will listen. Don't ever leave a dog unattended, inside or outside, with a choke collar on!

[wolflady]

I agree with tats, that's all I was trying to say was that if used correctly, I'm sure they are fine, but I don't think they should be left on ALL the time or unattended.

[Daisy's Mom]

We used a choke collar on Daisy when she was a puppy. We had to - she was strong and strong willed too! If you just give a quick pop after putting it on the right way (P shape) the dog will behave itself right away. And with Daisy at least, she learned not to pull and we don't even need to use the choke collar on her anymore. We tossed it out a while ago. Now she walks just fine. I also don't agree with letting your dog wander around with choke collars around! There is a family who lives a few streets up from us and they let their sweet Springer Spaniel wander everywhere. She had a choke collar on all summer and once I saw her get hooked on a bush at my house! She started to panic and pull and I went over, freed her, and threw out the collar. Maybe that was wrong of me but if her owners are going to be mean then so am I! Anyway, as long as you can use the collar effectively and you know when and how to use it, I say it's okay.

[Pam]

Good for you Daisy's Mom!! If those people didn't realize the danger they were putting their dog in, at least you did. We will never tell!!! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

[KYS]

Rottie,
Our little dog is not well trained, and she chokes when she is walking on leash.
So my husband bought her a harness to save
her neck. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
She is my husbands dog and he lets her walk anyway she wants too. (she is very spoiled but cute).

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Kys, same here, our Schnauzers are not well trained but happy. We found, especially with little Daisy she wanted to walk so much she would choke on her regular collar, so whenever we take her for a walk or anywhere we use a body harness and it is perfect for her and also for Perry, much better control and they can't walk backward out of their collar.

[aly]

I train hundreds and hundreds of dogs and I will never ever put a choke collar on one of my own or on one at the shelter I work at. Granted, it provides faster results, but I could never feel comfortable with using one. There are alternative training methods like the ones we use at the humane society. They are very effective but do take consistency and patience.

I'm not trying to start an argument or disagree with anyone. These are just my personal feelings. I understand if you have tried everything else and nothing worked. All the posters here who use them seem very knowledgable and use them correctly, however many people do not and it breaks my heart.

[Genia]

I adopted Jeffrey when he was 2 years old. Talk about an untrained, wild dog (ok I'm stretching it a little). My 11 yr old would put on her rollarblades and off they would go! It was like a carnival ride for her. I thought about using a choke collar for Jeffrey. I picked one out and headed for the checkout counter and I couldn't bring myself to buy one. I know they can be very effective, but I am such a wimp, I cannot stand my boy to be in any sort of discomfort. I decided to work harder at getting him to obey. It was not easy! He has his moments, but he's pretty good now. I think with me, I'm not looking to have a show quality dog. I want him to obey, but I don't worry about having the most well-mannered dog on the block. I think obedience school is necessary, not only for the owner, but for the safety and well-being of the dog. I refused to go to any school that insisted on choke chains. I am very inexperienced on choke chains. I have never used them. I grew up with dogs and my parents never used them. I guess I have been lucky and never felt the need to use one. I can't say it's wrong, but it's not right for me.

As a side note, my daughter has talked me into buying my first pair of roller blades. I haven't been on skates since I was 19 and I broke my arm. Maybe I should use Jeffrey to pull me around the neighborhood http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Genia (edited March 16, 2001).]

[KYS]

I like the Gentle Leader also.

If your dog is an escape artist
I learned this trick from an instructor.

Put a choke chain on the dog.
When you put on the Gentle leader, you
hook both the ring for the Gentle leader
and the choke onto the leash.
You are NOT using the choke chain at all.
If your dog was to get out of the gentle
leader, you would still have control of your dog via the choke collar.

[Logan]

Aly,
I read your reply and understand your feelings. What do you suggest and use as an alternative?
Logan

[ownerof3dogs]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KYS:
[B]If a choke collar/prong is used correctly it should not harm your dog. The choke can be used as a training tool/for walking
strong dogs. If not used correctly
that can cause harm to the dog. It should Never be used as a regular collar.

I agree I use choke chain on Felice and Zeus and a Prong Collar on Herc. It doesn't bother them because as I use it correcty and the collars are the right size.
I work at a Vets office and I see so many people coming in and they have the pron collar on so tight that it is almost impossable to get off.
It makes me sick these poor dogs are walking around with these collars poking and choking them non stop. When we see this we inform them that they are using it incorrectly and they have NO CLUE that they are.
I think the should have warning and detailed instruction labels on them.

[Daisy's Mom]

Genia the rollerblading idea is great but be careful! LOL actually I love to rollerblade and I tried going with Daisy. She took me flying way too fast down the hills, but when I needed some help getting up them, she flopped over onto her back in the middle of the road. Typical Basset!

[aly]

Logan, there are several "games" and techniques we use to get the dogs trained for leash walking. I will try to briefly explain some of them. I was a skeptic of these working at first, but I see it work time and time again.

The most simple one is "be a tree". As we are walking the dogs, the second they strain and pull on the leash, we stop and stoop down so the leash is horizontal from their shoulders. We then wait for them to realize they need to come check back to us. We will give them a sit or down command depending on how hyper they are. They are rewarded and then we start walking again until the next pull. It takes time and patience but they soon realizing that pulling means an end to their walk and that is considered negative. If they are good and obey a command, the walk starts again, and that is their reward. This is especially effective on shelter dogs since walks are precious for them. It can be effective if you carry treats in your pocket too.

Another thing we do is "tossing and turning". Hold a bunch of treats in one hand and the leash in the other. Always keep the dog to one side of you. Start by throwing a treat out in front of you. Walk with the dog and when he gets the treat, make a turn and call his name. Continue walking in the direction you turned and when the dog gets to your side, have your hand there and give him another treat. (We also use our mark word here, "Yes!") He sees that walking on a loose leash by your side is rewarding.

There's also another one similar to the one I just described. You have the dog on a leash and toss a treat out the length of the leash. Let the dog get it then call him to you. When he comes, grab his collar, feed him a treat and give praise. This game works for several things besides leash training. It can be helpful in teaching your dog to trust you and also to come to you when off leash. It prevents them from playing the "you can't catch me" game in public when you need them.

I've been pretty brief but those are just a few examples. It'd be a lot easier if I could demonstrate. If these exercises, along with some others, are done consistently and in the correct way, they have amazing results.

Again, I'm not criticizing any of you for using choke collars...its just other people out there.

[I Love My Aussie]

I do not think choke chains are cruel. It does not choke the dog, and it helps you train it. Regular collars often choke the dog of it struggles. I actually like the choke chain, believe it or not.

------------------
*Get a Grip Get an Aussie*

[blueruby]

wolflady, (on the first page, third message *I know this is a little bit behind!*)

oh my god.... I went to that rottweiler website. who ever did that to that poor thing? the neck was got all cut!
I am using a choke chain on my dog right now too. I don't think it is causing her much problem. she seems to be sensitive with a nylon collar because her neck is all red after she wore one, so I switched to a choke chain. I guess I better be careful around those kind of collars around my dog. thanks for the tip.

[wolflady]

Aly, thanks for the interesting info on your training techniques!
Blueruby, welcome to Pet Talk! I know, I couldn't believe that dog survived!

[carrie]

Choke, or check, chains are as cruel as cars or guns if the person using them is incompetent. They are legitimate tools when used with an understanding of the individual dog being handled.
Prong collars are also a tool and, in the right hands, are even better than check chains. They spread any pressure from a correction around the neck of the dog instead of concentrating the majority of the pressure on the front and at the ring. The prongs are there to spread the pressure, not to inflict injury or pain in any way.
They look, and are, savage in the wrong hands.
Maybe the time has come for legislation - there are many people that I have seen that should not be allowed to handle a dog let alone use these tools.

[ownerof3dogs]

Carrie,
I was going to post that about the prong collars. But I couldn't remember if I really heard that. It is true. If you put a choke collar on your arm and snap it and put a prong collar on your arm and snap it the prong collar is so much more better.

[Mimi]

I do not advocate the use of choke chains, and in the wrong hands they can be lethal! I have seen dogs with permanent damage to their windpipes, caused by over zealous or hash use of a choke chain, and in the worst possible scenario, a fractured windpipe, a dog could drop down dead! far better to use the kind equipment now on the market, gentle leaders, halti's etc, and good old fashioned training!

[RachelJ]

Originally posted by blueruby:
I am using a choke chain on my dog right now too. I don't think it is causing her much problem. she seems to be sensitive with a nylon collar because her neck is all red after she wore one, so I switched to a choke chain. I guess I better be careful around those kind of collars around my dog. thanks for the tip.

I'm curious as to what type of nylon collar your dog had that would leave her neck red. What it a buckle or quik-clip or the kind that is similar to the choke chain only made out of nylon?

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Choke Chains are the most dangerous collars you could have a dog wear all the time!! People should know way better. My Lab, Sadie, only wears her Choke Chain when I have her on a leash. If you really love your dog, having a choke chain as a permanent collar is almost cruel!!! I wouldn't care how much a nylon buckle collar or leather collar would cost, I would NEVER, EVER put a choke chain on my dog as a permanent collar!!! The ring could very easily get cought on something, and the dog would choke to death, and die!! Whenever I see a dog with a choke chain on, I always let the owners know how dangerous it is, and that theri dog could die by getting choked to death!!!!! It makes me soooooooo mad to see people do that to their poor little dog!!! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/mad.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/mad.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/mad.gif

[Rottie]

Originally posted by carrie:

Prong collars are also a tool and, in the right hands, are even better than check chains. They spread any pressure from a correction around the neck of the dog instead of concentrating the majority of the pressure on the front and at the ring. The prongs are there to spread the pressure, not to inflict injury or pain in any way.
They look, and are, savage in the wrong hands.

This is exactly what I wanted to say, but I couldn't find the right words.