huge sacrifice

[RICHARD]

‘HE JOINED ... TO PAY BACK A LITTLE’
One of the first two U.S. casualties in Iraq included Jose Gutierrez, an immigrant from Guatemala who lived in California. The 22-year-old Marine lance corporal was killed in ground combat on Friday.
An orphan who grew up on the streets while Guatemala was enmeshed in civil war, he found a new family when at age 14 he traveled to the United States by train, foot and bus. He enlisted partly to thank the United States for his new life, said his foster brother, Max Mosquera.
“He joined the Marines to pay back a little of what he’d gotten from the U.S.,” Mosquera said. “For him it was a question of honor.”


THIS STORY was reported in the local papers.
Gutierrez had traveled close to 1,400 miles to come to the US.
he was a few days short of making his one year anniversary in the marines. One story, from a neighbor, was that Gutierrez observed her doing yard work. He asked her if he could lend a hand and spent the next 6 hours working on the yard for her.

another quote from a local paper was about his service to his adopted country, paraphrased here, 'he joined the marines to give back to the country that have given him so much, when he came here with so little'.

he left the country of his birth during time of war to serve his new country in a time of war.

i think back to being 14 and it makes me ashamed and sad for growing up so spoiled.

god bless him.

[Pam]

Richard isn't that the truth. I think most of us who call ourselves Americans must also admit we are probably spoiled as well. Life has been good and it is because of the huge sacrifices of those who have gone before that we can say that.

I received the following e-mail this morning. It lists our POWs and suggests that one special POW be remembered in our prayers each day. It sort of takes me back to the Viet Nam days when we wore our POW bracelets and focused our prayers on that special person whose bracelet we wore, while still praying for all those in harm's way in a more general way.

Please pray for the following POW's currently being held in Iraq.

Chief Warrant Officer 2, David S. Williams, 30, of Orlando, FL;
Chief Warrant Officer 2, Ronald D. Young, Jr., 26, of Lithia Spring, GA
Army Spc. Joseph Hudson, 23, of Alamogordo, N.M.;
Army Pfc. Patrick Miller, 23, of Park City, Kan.;
Army Spc. Shoshana Johnson, 30, of Fort Bliss, Texas;
Edgar Hernandez, 21, supply truck driver, of Mission, Texas, rank unknown;
Army Sgt. James Riley, 31, of Pennsauken, N.J.

We need prayer to support and lift up our troops. Pray for our leaders as
well as our soldiers. Pray for peace.

Print out a copy of this list ? or choose one or two names and place them
with a Post-It note somewhere you will see it and pray for them throughout
your day.

Please feel free to add names to this list and pass it on?.

God Bless America!

[mugsy]

Thank you both for bringing this war home. It's amazing how much more some immigrants give to this country. It sure hits home how spoiled I am. Pam, I will keep these men in my prayers.

[Soledad]

Wow. He sounds A LOT like my uncle. Poor guy.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Prayers are being sent to all the men and women who are being held captive and also to all the men who have died in action, U.S. and British. We are fortunate to have wonderful friends like the British.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy

[Chinadoll]

*tears*
Prayers for those men and their families. May God be with them.

[Dakota's Mommy]

*tears*
I know what you mean! I feel the same way.

Thanks for all the support and asking others to pray and think of us military families, especially the ones who have been become POW's or have died for this. It means so much to the troops and their families, trust me, I know and I see it every day with others as well as myself.

And yes, I do feel awfully spoiled thinking of how people live in other countries such as Iraq where they aren't free! It's so weird to me to think that somebody over there doesn't live like me. I guess maybe to some of them, the thought of freedom scares them, but to me, it's weird to think that they can't live like that because of the way their country has been. So foreign to some of us, huh!

[RICHARD]

FROM THE LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS.

Ventura mom mourns death of Marine son


By Grace Lee
Staff Writer

VENTURA -- The flame from a single white candle cast shadows Tuesday on pictures of Marine Sgt. Michael Bitz and the twin babies he never knew as his mother learned details of his battlefield death in the Iraqi desert.

"I see," Donna Bellman said into the receiver as she was being told about the final moments in the life of her son, killed by Iraqi soldiers Sunday in an ambush near An Nasiriyah.

"I had a feeling that's when he was killed ... I knew he was killed there."

Bellman's voice broke as the emotions welled up while listening to a friend relay information from a television report.

Bitz, a Hueneme High School graduate and father of four, including a twin boy and girl born a month ago, was among nine Marines killed in the ambush. The 31-year-old sergeant had been assigned to the 2nd Assault Amphibious Battalion in the 2nd Marine Division. Also killed was Marine Cpl. Jorge A. Gonzalez, 20, of Los Angeles.

-----------------------------------------

Bitz never got to see his twins, he was shipped out before they were born.

i hope the protesters think about him when they go home to see their families, altho i kinda doubt it....they are too busy using their
freedom of speech, a freedom insured by people like Bitz.

god bless him

[Dakota's Mommy]

Thank you for sharing Richard! That's so sad! But you're right, those protesters don't think about things like that!

[sammi]

-----------------------------------------Quote: Richard
Bitz never got to see his twins, he was shipped out before they were born.

i hope the protesters think about him when they go home to see their families, altho i kinda doubt it....they are too busy using their
freedom of speech, a freedom insured by people like Bitz.
god bless him


So sad. Well said Richard

[Soledad]

Um...most protesters are extremely concerned about the lives of our soldiers and the Iraqis. Let's not make assumptions about people we don't knowl.

[RICHARD]

here in so cal a woman set up an red white and blue awning in her front yard so people could stop by and sign a book for the soldiers and pick up red, white and blue ribbons to wear (that she made by hand).

she told the reporter that it was neither a pro or antiwar statement-she was merely supporting the troops.

the reporter closed the piece by saying the neighbors 'were not talking to her because they thought her actions were pro war'.

nice to see the antiwar faction is so understanding and caring and willing to support the troops!!!

lol.

[Soledad]

I guess you're right, Richard. I guess the actions of a few people can be reflective of millions. You're so wise.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
I guess you're right, Richard. I guess the actions of a few people can be reflective of millions. You're so wise.


nope never claimed to be wise, but i find no solace or promise in tossing around the quotes of a war criminal and to properly acknowledge his military rank is downright puzzling!

[Soledad]

I guess I don't understand why someone would quote a pop star and think it was in anyway insightful or revealing.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
I guess I don't understand why someone would quote a pop star and think it was in anyway insightful or revealing.


well spank me raw for loving a good looking gal and not holding a
war monster as my personal hero.......ya got me on that one, babe......of course faith is skinny and good looking.......

whoa this is a war thread......

so why the attraction to herr goering????

lol

[Cincy'sMom]

A friend of mine from high school is a Marine, fighting in Iraq right now. Shortly before he left, he sent his dad an email, part of which his dad shared with the local paper in Findlay. Unfortunatly I do not have a copy of the letter in front of me, but one part I remember was that the majority of the men in Brian's unit are not native-born Americans. They, like Jose, immigrated to this country and are now proud to be defending it. I think we all take the freedoms we have for granted.

[Soledad]

If you cannot understand the relevance of the quote, I really can't help you. If you cannot see that the quote is relevant because it IS from a war criminal and a Nazi, then you are even more pathetic than I originally imagined.

When the actions of some Americans are similar and in line with the words of a Nazi war criminal, it's pause for thought.

And just for clarification, my personal hero is my mother who fought poverty, prejudice and hatred with integrity and grace.

[ChrisH]

Oh, boy the tears are flowing here........
Thank you Richard for telling us about three of the brave men who have lost their lives in this war.
Thank you too Pam, I will add those men into my prayers.
Thank you Jackie.

You may be interested in reading this.
Communities grieve for war casualties (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2887987.stm)

Chris

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
If you cannot understand the relevance of the quote, I really can't help you. If you cannot see that the quote is relevant because it IS from a war criminal and a Nazi, then you are even more pathetic than I originally imagined.

When the actions of some Americans are similar and in line with the words of a Nazi war criminal, it's pause for thought.

And just for clarification, my personal hero is my mother who fought poverty, prejudice and hatred with integrity and grace.


actually i read the quote and it's the blue print for a madman's
overthrow of a society.........

"some americans"...does that include the soldiers who are executing his diabolical plans to take over iraq??

so why keep it as a sig? there were far greater men in history
(pick one and make sure it's not some scumbag war criminal)
whose wisdom and clarity are words of inspiration and not a
plan to stomp on society for their own benefit.


you know, my pathos is rather attractive to the right women, but remember i don't like war criminals.......they make me feel ucky..


love,
me

[Soledad]

When soldiers rule the government, maybe then I'll be able to dislike them. But when they are subject to the will of a few people (most of whom had not had the guts to serve themselves) I will hold no ill will towards them, as they are doing what they are told and do so with honorable intentions.

The quote is powerful because it gives one pause for thought. Could it be that our own leaders think similarly?? I have two words for you: Pax Americana.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
When soldiers rule the government, maybe then I'll be able to dislike them. But when they are subject to the will of a few people (most of whom had not had the guts to serve themselves) I will hold no ill will towards them, as they are doing what they are told and do so with honorable intentions.

The quote is powerful because it gives one pause for thought. Could it be that our own leaders think similarly?? I have two words for you: Pax Americana.


gee i forgot ALL MY LATIN, son of a gun, and i was an altar boy too..............

you lose......first you shoot yourself in the foot by hinting that
the leaders want to take over Iraq, and the only way to do that is to send american soldiers there........but you can't bad mouth the soldiers because they are mindlessly obeying the boss???

honorable intentions????

pretzel logic........damn, i thought you had a point there and you go and screw it up............geez......

at times it's better to beat a hasty retreat than to be hastily beaten while retreating.......george custer

[Soledad]

Do the soldiers have a say in Iraq? No, they don't. When we have a military dictatorship with ruthless military thugs in our homes, then I will turn my anger to soldiers.

There is no pretzel logic, RICHARD. A soldier has orders, it's just that simple. And with ole Vietnam-dogdging Bush and Cheney at the helm, it's not their choice. They signed up to protect America, and joined with honorable intentions. It is their duty to do as they are told. It's not their fault that Bush & Co. cannot use diplomacy.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Do the soldiers have a say in Iraq? No, they don't. When we have a military dictatorship with ruthless military thugs in our homes, then I will turn my anger to soldiers.

There is no pretzel logic, RICHARD. A soldier has orders, it's just that simple. And with ole Vietnam-dogdging Bush and Cheney at the helm, it's not their choice. They signed up to protect America, and joined with honorable intentions. It is their duty to do as they are told. It's not their fault that Bush & Co. cannot use diplomacy.


now wait a second--you are anti war but you have a problem because bush and cheney weren't in Viet Nam...
lolololololololololololo....

ouch i just got a cramp from laughing!!!!!!!!


no self respecting general of ANY BRANCH of the service would be so stupid to send their forces on a suicide march....



bush and co...... i shopped there once.


again, take your pretty little head outta the history books and
jump right up here and start looking at the future.........
try to get some vision into your eyes, instead of living by the
downer that some of our history is.

it's a drag hanging out with people who have such a poo poo outlook on life. you are bringing the thread down..
:cool:

[Soledad]

Either you are truly stupid or truly evil. Perhaps both.

I am opposed to leaders who are cavalier about the lives of soldiers, when they themselves have never served.

The fact that General Schwarzkopf was opposed to this war should mean something.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Either you are truly stupid or truly evil. Perhaps both.

I am opposed to leaders who are cavalier about the lives of soldiers, when they themselves have never served.

The fact that General Schwarzkopf was opposed to this war should mean something.


stupid and evil.....

thanks! that makes me more of a commodity in this craxy mixed up world!!!!!!

cavalier........an offering from chevy if i remember correctly, nice cars....


did you know that the General's dad was a cop in NJ and helped with the lindbergh kidnapping??

The fact that the GEN. is retired and not privy to sensitive material should mean something!


(sticks and stones will break my bones- but my oh my aren't we
in a mood today!!!!!!)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Cincy'sMom
A friend of mine from high school is a Marine, fighting in Iraq right now. Shortly before he left, he sent his dad an email, part of which his dad shared with the local paper in Findlay. Unfortunatly I do not have a copy of the letter in front of me, but one part I remember was that the majority of the men in Brian's unit are not native-born Americans. They, like Jose, immigrated to this country and are now proud to be defending it. I think we all take the freedoms we have for granted.

all the more reason to fight very hard, no matter the situation,
to keep that freedom going.....it's funny how people who came here and were given the chance to prosper and reap the benefits
of the systems are more than willing to defend it with their being.

what can you say?

[mugsy]

Says a lot about the spoiled brats we have here doesn't it?

It is good to be reminded as we go on with our everyday lives that there are people fighting and dying to make sure that the freedoms that we have remain secure and that others may enjoy their benefits. My thoughts and prayers are with the soldiers and their families and the families of those who died defending our freedom.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy
My thoughts and prayers are with the soldiers and their families and the families of those who died defending our freedom.

sweetie,

you just signed up for a job that's 227 years in the making.

i volunteer some of my time too!

[mugsy]

Yes, I know, I have had relatives fight in every war that the U.S. has been involved in, so , yep, I have LOTS of prayers. Now, as of right now, I don't have anyone in Iraq, but that's the only one. And actually, I have relatives that fought before 227 years...my ggggg grandfather fought in the French and Indian War.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by ChrisH
Oh, boy the tears are flowing here........
Thank you Richard for telling us about three of the brave men who have lost their lives in this war.
Chris

california had quite a few military bases within the state and there is one area, Camp Pendleton about 45 miles south of los angeles, where the US Marine Corps ship out of.

unfortunately, those stories come close to home.

There are quite a few local kids/men that are part of our armed forces from right here in CA. The thing that struck me in the first story was the trek of a fourteen year old boy for a better life, he ends up giving that dream up on some battlefield thousands of miles defending his adopted country.

what does that say about his sacrifice?, what does that say about the lure of freedom and a better life?
the least we owe them is to remember their stories and what they fought for.

Bitz, the soldier with the newborn twins-

when i read that story the first thing that came to mind were
these kids, in a few years, asking mom, 'What was dad like?'

hopefully i won't have a reason to post any more, trying to put a face on war casualties.....

thanks!

[RICHARD]

Unwilling Iraqis tell of being shot by own officers


By Dexter Filkins
The New York Times

DIWANIYA, Iraq -- The aftermath of the firefight was a tableau of twisted Iraqi corpses, tins of unopened food and the dirty mattresses where they had spent their final hours.

But the Iraqi private with a bullet wound in the back of his head suggested something unusually grim. Up and down the 200-mile stretch of desert where the American and British forces have advanced, one Iraqi prisoner after another has told a similar tale: that many Iraqi soldiers were fighting at gunpoint, threatened with death by hard-core loyalists of President Saddam Hussein.

Here, according to American doctors and Iraqi prisoners, appeared to be the confirmation. The wounded Iraqi, whose life was ebbing away outside an American field hospital, had been shot during the firefight Tuesday night with American troops.

It was a small-caliber bullet, most likely from a pistol, fired at close range. Iraqi prisoners taken after the battle said their officers had been firing at them, pushing them into battle.

"The officers threatened to shoot us unless we fought," said a wounded Iraqi from his bed in the American field hospital here. "They took out their guns and pointed them and told us to fight."

As the American medics patched up the wounds of three other Iraqi soldiers, they said there was little they could do for the one who had been shot in the head. Much of his skull had come apart, and the medics labeled him "expectant," which meant he was expected to die. They gave him morphine, wrapped him in a green blanket and put him on a stretcher outside their tent.

"We think he was shot by his own," said Dr. Wade Wilde, a Marine surgeon. "If he had been hit by an M-16, it would have taken his whole head off. It seems like it was an Iraqi gun."

As Wilde spoke, his eyes drifted to the Iraqi soldier, still clinging to life, on the stretcher.

"We've tried to make him as comfortable as possible," Wilde said, "and let the wound run its course."

---------------------------

How ironic,
an american soldier trying to save the lives of Iraqis shot by their own 'people'. the scariest part is that these thugs are killing
people because saddam told them to...

[mugsy]

The more I read and hear about this madman the more I'm glad we are there liberating the people of Iraq.

I can't write what I really feel or I'd get banned from the site.

[RICHARD]

from a WWII poster....


What did you do today for freedom?
Today, at the front, he died...
Today, that did you do?
Next time you see a list of the dead and wounded, ask yourself;

"What can I do tomorrow that will save the lives of
men like this and help them win the war?"

[mugsy]

Very thought provoking. I'll think on that tonight and try something tomorrow.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy

I can't write what I really feel or I'd get banned from the site.

clean it up and post it or whisper it in my ear.....












mike, just kidding!!!!!

[Dakota's Mommy]

The more I read and hear about this madman the more I'm glad we are there liberating the people of Iraq.

You and me both Mugsy! You and me both!

I feel that we've got to do something now for these people and for the world before it gets any worse!

[RICHARD]

He was a true American, and a true Marine


When Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez set out to do battle against the Iraqi Republican Guard just outside Umm Qasr, he was probably unable to think of much other than the task at hand: Freeing a port so humanitarian aid could soon make its way to the oppressed people he and his fellow Marines had come to liberate.

Certainly he didn't expect to become one of the first American servicemen to die in Operation Iraqi Freedom. Nor could he have imagined that he would end up providing the definitive answer to a tired political debate that had for too long divided his countrymen back home.

Sure enough, Gutierrez would end up not only giving his life for his country, but also giving us a lesson on what it means to be an American.

On that day, Gutierrez, an immigrant from Guatemala, laid to rest a line of thinking that's all too common stateside, including in his home state of California.

That line of thinking holds that being an American isn't about living out an ideal set forth by the nation's founders two centuries ago, it's a happy birthright.

What makes one an American, the thinking goes, is the blood in your veins or the hunk of dirt on which you were born, period. To nativists, the United States is the most exclusive club around: If you're not born in it, then you're never really able to join it, either -- at least you shouldn't be.

The life and death of Lance Cpl. Gutierrez offers a very different vision of Americanism.

Orphaned before he turned 10, Gutierrez and his older sister had to quit school to earn a living in a Guatemalan steel factory. They became street kids in a war-torn country where such kids typically weren't treated too kindly by the police and soldiers who patrolled the streets.

So nine years ago, like millions of others before him, Gutierrez decided to seek out freedom and a better life by coming to America. Just 16 years old, he made the 2,000-mile journey from Guatemala, through Mexico and ultimately to California, hopping some 14 trains along the way.

He came as an illegal immigrant, but eventually qualified for political asylum and permanent resident status. Yet even when he died in an American uniform, he still hadn't attained American citizenship.

After arriving in the U.S., Gutierrez settled in Lomita, where he was taken in by foster parents Nora and Marcelo Mosquera. In short order, he would learn English, help raise the Mosqueras' younger children and graduate from high school. He sent money and pictures of himself back to his sister in Guatemala, whom he reportedly hoped to bring to the United States.

A gifted artist, his foster family has said, Gutierrez wanted to become an architect but put those dreams and college on hold, instead choosing another path -- the Marines.

Gutierrez "wanted to give the United States what the United States gave to him," the Mosqueras' adult daughter, Jackie Baker, told KVEA-TV (Channel 52). "He came with nothing. This country gave him everything."

Soon enough, he would give everything to the country he eagerly served. On March 21, fighting alongside his fellow Marines, he succumbed to enemy fire.

Gutierrez might not have been born to American parents or on American soil, but he embodied Americanism -- both before and after going to war.

He embodied Americanism the day he risked his life and set off for this country, looking for freedom and an opportunity to succeed.

He embodied Americanism when he learned the language, then went to school and work.

And he undeniably embodied Americanism on the day he signed up to become a Marine, the day he lost his life in combat and all the days in between.

Some might quibble: He came here illegally; he broke the law.

Fair enough. The rule of law shouldn't be discarded lightly. But then, Gutierrez was 16 years old when he entered this country. American teens break a good many laws every day, but seldom for reasons as compelling.

And whatever debt he may have owed to society for transgressing U.S. immigration policy, he repaid many times over with his own blood.

Gutierrez's only surviving relative is his sister back in Guatemala. She wants to bring his body back to his native land, and there's no begrudging that decision. It's her brother and her grief. Besides, where Gutierrez is buried doesn't matter any more than where he was born. It's his life and his death that tell us all we need to know about his nationality.

Jose Gutierrez was an American, a patriot and a hero -- in that order.


Chris Weinkopf is an editorial writer and columnist for the Daily News. E-mail him at [email protected] .

[mugsy]

Wow! That was a powerful article.

[RICHARD]

they are serving their country......


LA daily news

Two of Miller triplets fighting with Marines somewhere in Iraq


By Carol Rock
Staff Writer

CANYON COUNTRY -- Jared and Travis Miller, two in a set of 20-year-old triplets from Canyon Country, have always been close.

The boys and their sister, Kelly, got along well enough when they were kids, playing games and doing things that most kids do. Mom Tina Miller said that Kelly often took on the role of protector, warning her brothers to stay out of trouble.

"She would protect them, telling them not to do this or that because 'You'll get in trouble with Mom,"' she said. "Even as little kids, they were very good and very close."

No word has come from the boys since the war began, and all the family knows is that they are somewhere in Iraq -- Jared with the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines; Travis, with 1st Battalion, 7th Marines.

Travis, not quite ready to think about college, enlisted in July 2000, shortly after graduating from Canyon High School.

Soon, he was crawling through the mud and hiking for miles, loaded down with a rucksack and a rifle in boot camp. This Marine who left as a boy and came home a man impressed Jared, who was inspired to join the Marines that December.

"I got a letter from Jared and one phone call recently," Tina Miller said. "I haven't talked to Travis since the beginning of February. They can't tell me where they are, but I hope they are safe.
------------------------


i also read of a set of triplet girls who were in the service, beautiful gals........


but, the story that made me think was a Puerto Rican gent who came to the U.S., enlisted and served in Viet Nam.

he has five sons serving at the moment and when asked about why he let his kids enlist he said, 'what better sacrifice for this country than to let my children serve?'

he was very proud of his kids who followed in his footsteps.....

god bless them all.

[mugsy]

'what better sacrifice for this country than to let my children serve?'

Now THAT'S a true American.

[RICHARD]

Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez (the second casualty of the war) and who, as a 14 year old teenager traveled from his home country to the US, was honored a few days ago in El Monte, CA.....

He was granted citizenship, posthumously, and his body was sent back to Guatemala for burial.

The Guatemalan military refused to grant him a military burial because he fought and gave his life for US. Their reasoning???

Since he died fighting for the US, not guatemala, his patriotism was misplaced.

[catland]

that's sad. We should bury him in Arlington.

[mugsy]

His sister, who is his only living relative, wanted him buried in his homeland. What a greeting....I hate stupid people.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Richard, I'm so sad to hear that, he should have been buried here with full military honors, what a sad story.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935
Richard, I'm so sad to hear that, he should have been buried here with full military honors, what a sad story.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy


there was another gentleman here in lost angeles who lost his son in iraq. he did not allow the stars and stripes to be draped on his sons coffin, instead, the dad had the flag of HIS country
draped on the coffin. he also plans on suing the US government
for his son's death.

first protestors, now this.