Catcher in the Rye - what do you think?

[Nomilynn]

We just read this novel for my class at university, and one girl was saying how she thought Holden was a pompous, arrogant jerk. I was really suprised - I saw him as a sweet, loving and gentle person who was deeply sorrowful about his brother's passing. If you have read the book, what did you think of Holden? I'd be really interested to know.

[wolf_Q]

I read that book (actually I read it because of the movie, Conspiracy Theory lol)....but it's been too long...I really don't remember much about it, sorry.

[Nomilynn]

It's a very good book.. I really really liked it. :D I just really didn't see the spin this girl was trying to put on it.

Naomi , who is the writer of this book ? Maybe I read it in Dutch ?
If not , I am always happy to learn about other bboks . My hubby and I , we are both "busy" readers !:) :)

[slleipnir]

I read it in grade 11. I actually thought it was an ok book, I agree with you though for the most part, I think he was just a little disturbed or something lol. Theres a movie called "Chasing Holden" or something..I only saw a little of it, but I guess it has something to do with some kid trying ot find the author of the book..

[slleipnir]

Lut: the author os J.D. Salinger

[Ann]

It's one of the only books my boyfriend likes, so I bought it (very expensively) at a bookstore that carries English books.

I really liked it a lot, and Holden is very similar to my boyfriend, both in character and what they've been true. So I can't either see where that girl is coming from... I thought he was a very nice person.

That book had a lot of good quotes too. My two favorites were "Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." and "The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one.".

Lut, I doubt it's been translated... Hasn't been translated to Swedish so I doubt it has been translated to Dutch...

[mugsy]

I did a search on Google and found that there is both a Swedish translation (without the swear words) and Dutch of Catcher in the Rye.

I tried reading it, but just couldn't get into it. I haven't figured out yet why it's on so many banned book lists.

[Ann]

Without the swear words? What do you mean? I didn't remember all that many swear words in the book and I know for a fact that Sweden would never censor books, especially not for cussing (everyone cusses in Sweden and it's not seen as obscene or bad manners either). It's on banned book lists? I'm completely confused now! I don't get why that would be banned... I thought things like that was over and done with after Lady Chatterley's Lover in the 1800s! :eek:

[mugsy]

Oh no....there are books out there that for one reason or another groups decide are immoral or whatever and ban them. I've heard of in the South even as late as the 70s that they burned books. Now, for what reason CITR would be banned, I have no clue.


As for leaving the swear words out in Sweden, all I know is what I saw when I went on Google, so I can't speak to that.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Ann
... and I know for a fact that Sweden would never censor books, especially not for cussing (everyone cusses in Sweden and it's not seen as obscene or bad manners either).


How in goodness's name would you ever know something like that "for a fact"??????

[Nomilynn]

This novel has been banned for it's swear words (continiued use of "godd**m" - I suppose that's a bad word for 1945 when it was written (I think)- and the "F" word), as well as it's portrayal of a boy without a good relationship with his parents. Also, it's seen as distasteful that there really isn't a happy ending. Although many books written now don't have happy endings and are seen as valuable, back in "the day" this was written, books were meant to have happy endings and wrap things up nicely, as way to show adolescents, "see? now, don't fuss!" There is also the scene with homosexual overtones that would make a lot of people uncomfortable.

There are a lot of books that are censored that are a suprise. Even "Peter Rabbit" has been banned because it portrays middle class ideals and a child who is disobedient. I personally think censorship is much more damaging than helpful, but don't get me started - this is a subject I could go on and on about and I'm very passionate about, because I want to be an English teacher, and because I wasn't censored as a child from any book.

Oh, and I did a search through the "Alan Review" about CITR - one parent "counted "over 700 obscenities and over 100 profane uses of the name of God" in The Catcher in the Rye" ".. censors make it their full time job to rob people of opportunity, and it comes out of fear that one day, they might actually have to answer an uncomfortable question :rolleyes: But that's just my opinion.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Oh no....there are books out there that for one reason or another groups decide are immoral or whatever and ban them. I've heard of in the South even as late as the 70s that they burned books

Regrettably this goes on in school districts today. Tom Sawyer is one that gets banned and comes immediately to mind. Speaks to the power of the written word doesn't it -- when people are afraid?

BTW...I read CITR years ago. It was a kind of "rite of passage." I wasn't shocked but I found Hollton rather self-absorbed and boring which would be a good description for JD Salinger as well.

All a matter of personal taste!

[Crikit]

I read that book in grade 11 and I quite enjoyed it...so much that I went out and bought a copy of it for myself from work, in case I decide to read it again. Actually now that I think about it I liked most of the books that we read in high school I discovered one of my fave books because of englsih class.

[Logan]

Silly me! :o I know I have read it and it was controversial at the time, but it was required reading when I was in high school. I don't remember a thing about it except those facts (controversial and required). That was in the late 70's........maybe I should read it again.

Logan

[Soledad]

It seems strange that they're having people read that book in university. It's standard h.s. or even junior high reading. At any rate, I found the book to be absolutely great for the teenage mind.

I think Holden is funny and amusing, but he is supposed to be a teenager. You know, brooding, self-absorbed and angsty. So, if you have a hard time with those qualities, I can see how you'd find him annoying.

At any rate, the book is an absolute classic.

[Nomilynn]

The course is about adolescent lit and how teens are portrayed in literature.. that's why it's in a univ. course :)

[Soledad]

Ah! That makes great sense. I was a little worried about university curriculum for a second.:)

I think Holden is a great representation of adolescence. At least he was for me.

[Ann]

Originally posted by Cataholic
How in goodness's name would you ever know something like that "for a fact"??????

Uhhhhh... Are you really serious?! Not only have I lived in Sweden for 19 years, I am also very interested and active in censorship matters, be it online, in the USA or in Sweden. I know the USA has quite a double moral when it comes to things like these (for example it's ok to show all sorts of violence on TV as long as you don't use "bad words" :rolleyes: ) but Sweden does not.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Ann
Lut, I doubt it's been translated... Hasn't been translated to Swedish so I doubt it has been translated to Dutch...

It has been translated in both Swedish and Dutch. The Swedish version leaves out the swear words. That = censoring.

I go back to my original statment, "How do you ever know something like that for a fact"?

By your own posts...you were wrong. Not right. Wrong. So, my answer to you is, "Yes, I am serious".

I don't know what censorship issues you are both interested and active in...but, Ann, you were WRONG. No one posted anything about the 'anti US' rhetoric you are constantly spewing. The issue was about CITR, not, once again, your personal thoughts on the USA.

[Nomilynn]

Originally posted by Soledad

I think Holden is a great representation of adolescence. At least he was for me.

I thought he was a great representation of an adolescent who hadn't yet grieved and was trying to deal with the pain without knowing how. I don't know that I agree he's a great representation of an "average" teen. But a troubled teen, yes :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Now this has me thinking about the whole batch of "coming of age" books that were required reading in high school...The Chosen being one I particularly enjoyed and which led me to read every book by the author. I do continue to wonder why they were all about young men coming of age but my question is....

There was a book about young men in a private school that involved one kid falling out of a tree and breaking some body part. I have such a sense of the book but can't remember the title or much else.

Can anyone help?

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
There was a book about young men in a private school that involved one kid falling out of a tree and breaking some body part. I have such a sense of the book but can't remember the title or much else.

Can anyone help?


Humpty Dumpty? I read all the required reading books in high school. I am afraid they didn't leave much of an impression on me. I can barely recall CITR, Death of a Salesman, Of Mice and Men...so, I can't help with anyone faling out of a tree. I don't think I know anything about The Chosen, either.

[Soledad]

I would say Holden is an amplified version of an average teen. I had no major trauma to speak of, no dead brother to grieve, but I was similarly jaded about life and disgusted with most adult behaviour at Holden's age. Most teens go through major inner turmoil, regardless of how perfect their life may seem (Ordinary People is a good one for this). Especially with this generation and divorce levels.

Edwina- I know the book you're talking about, just can't remember the title. I can even picture the book cover!! I, too, loved The Chosen. I read it in the sixth grade because of an older brother had it on hand and it had a big influence on me.

I do remember reading plenty of girl coming of age books. Oh, Judy Blume!

[Edwina's Secretary]

Unfortunately, Judy Blume wasn't writing yet when I was a teenager!

Chaim Potok, who wrote The Chosen wrote a book titled Davita's Harp which is a girl coming of age book. (He wrote it many years later so it wasn't in my high school reading!) There is a passage in it that struck me emotionally in a way no other has -- perhaps the way some feel about CITR! I have read all of his books and really enjoy his writing.

Soledad...if you like The Chosen you should look for Davita's Harp !

[Nomilynn]

Sara - do you remember anything else about the book? It sounds vaguely familiar and it's driving me nuts! I really want to find it :)

Judy Blume is my favourite author. I've read and collected all of her books, including her biography. I emailed her once, too, and she wrote back! It was very exciting :)

[Soledad]

As a Puerto Rican Catholic kid who grew up surrounded by Polish and Russian Jews, you can imagine what kind of identity complex I had! I loved The Chosen partly because I thought I was part Jew by association (hey, I'd been eating matzoh ball soup since I was five and changed diapers for plenty freshly brisqued baby boys).

As long as we're guessing book titles I used to read this series of children's books about a Jewish family in New York and their five daughters. Anyone remember that?

Edwina, I'll be looking out for Davita's Harp!

[Edwina's Secretary]

All of a Kind Family -- my FAVORITE books as a kid. There was a whole series. Yikes...I am being flooded with memories of the sisters and the brother who was born last. Mother would hide pennies so the girls would do a thorough job of dusting. The aunt who developed polio -- a greenhorn.....WOW!!!

[Soledad]

ACKKKKK!!!

I am suddenly ten years old!!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

How's this.....Ella, Hennie, Sara, Charlotte, and little Gertie !

[Soledad]

Who was the one that stole the porcelain doll from the Church after she lied about being a Christian. Loved that one!

Oh, and who was the pretty one?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Oh, and who was the pretty one?

Sara of course...;) :rolleyes: :D

Actually I think it was Gertie...the baby with blonde curls (how stereotypical!)

I don't remember which was the doll stealer. It may come to me in my sleep tonight!

[mugsy]

I read 3 of Chaim Potok's books, but never heard of the girl story. I'll look for it. He really is a good author.

[Soledad]

Those books seriously rocked me. I remember being really pissed off that I was PR and Catholic and not Jewish in turn-of-the-century New York. Soooo envious.

Their parents were so nice.

*Sigh*

Not at all like my hideous beast parents ;) !

[Nomilynn]

I've never heard of any of these books.. I will have to look for them! :D

[mugsy]

Sara,

Have you ever read the continuation of the Chosen called The Promise? Also, he wrote the book My Name is Asher Lev which is also very good.

[Soledad]

I read The Promise. Though I have to say I did not believe it was as good. In fact, I remember very little of it.

[mugsy]

I would agree that The Promise was NOT as good as The Chosen, but I still enjoyed it, albeit not nearly as much.

I went to Google and did a search and came up with this website about the man. Wow, he sounds interesting. I didn't realize that he had written so many books!! I'll be looking for them now!! Enjoy!

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/potok.htm

[Edwina's Secretary]

Mugsy...yes I read The Promise and it was good but I would agree good but -- not as good as The Chosen. I've also read My Name is Asher Lev. Potok was an interesting man and a good writer. You really should read Davita's Harp. It is amazing that he was able to write so well from a female's perspective.


Catholic and not Jewish in turn-of-the-century New York. Soooo envious.

My sentiments too! Even though I read the All of a Kind Family books over 35 years ago I remember them so well. I became interested in Judaism and the Jewish immigrant experience. This lead me to Chaim Potok, Issac B. Singer, and Herman Wouk.

[Ann]

Originally posted by Cataholic
It has been translated in both Swedish and Dutch. The Swedish version leaves out the swear words. That = censoring.

I still don't buy that. Are you Swedish? Do you speak Swedish or know how the language works? Have you read the book in Swedish? Can you atleast show me where you get this info from?


Originally posted by Cataholic
I go back to my original statment, "How do you ever know something like that for a fact"?

Actually, that isn't your original statement. It was a lot ruder.


Originally posted by Cataholic
By your own posts...you were wrong. I don't know what censorship issues you are both interested and active in...but, Ann, you were WRONG.

Let's for a second say I am wrong: What horrible crime is that? Do you have to sit there like some bully and constatly repeat how "wrong" I am? Everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect. And like I already said, I am interested in censorship issues where people aren't allowed to speak their mind; read below.


Originally posted by Cataholic
No one posted anything about the 'anti US' rhetoric you are constantly spewing. The issue was about CITR, not, once again, your personal thoughts on the USA.

So that's what it all comes down to huh? Yet again. When I saw your first comment I was wondering why you stated it so rudely, but then I realized it had to be about this again. This is the exact censorship I am fighting; not being able to say my opinions on a general and public board with no specific rule about "no bad-mouthing the USA". And I didn't even "spew" anything this time; I just explained one of the censorship issues I was interested in because you asked me! It makes me so dissapointed to always having to see threads like this closed because I said something that was considered "controversial". Why can't I ever speak my mind without having a thread closed or deleted because of it? I don't want to get warnings all the time just cause I answer a question and feel a certain way! And yet, I keep coming here. Because I love animals and love talking about them. But, that's not all I'm interested in. I also want to be able to talk about other things, I don't want to be censored and want to be able to speak freely in a general board, so why can't I ever without having to feel guilty?!

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by Ann


It makes me so dissapointed to always having to see threads like this closed because I said something that was considered "controversial". Why can't I ever speak my mind without having a thread closed or deleted because of it? I don't want to get warnings all the time just cause I answer a question and feel a certain way!


WOW...doesn't this tell you anything???

[Cataholic]

Ann,
I really don't care whether you are right or wrong...I care that you state things, "for a FACT" when, they are not a fact. I don't care that you have an opinion about anything...it is when you try to convert that opinion into some universal truth that is annoying to me.

[Cataholic]

Ann,
I hope this works...now, admittably, my swedish isn't very good, but, I think this holds that there are at least two swedish translations.... Now, it could be that the University is misstating their position...never know....


http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/hum/engla/pg/karjalainen/tiiviste.pdf

[Edwina's Secretary]

Let's talk about books....or PETS!

[Ann]

*shivers* Talk about snobby Swedish there. I hate when writers and journalists use the biggest words they can find instead of writing a normal words just to look "smarter". The writer of that article was a great example of that...

Anyways, according to that article there's been two translations into Swedish (odd since I asked two different bookstores and they both claimed it had never been translated!), one in 1953 and one in 1987. In the last one there only existed 408 "bad words" out of 778.

There are two things I have to say about this:

Let's say the books were in fact censored. The point here is that 1953 and 1987 is a long time from 2003. Even if they were censored back then doesn't mean that is done today. I was not active in censorship matters in 1953 (not even born then) or 1987 (3 years old) , so I really don't feel too bad about not knowing much about that.

And the second thing is that English/American "bad words" cannot always be translated into Swedish. This is my personal thought on all of this, and I think that is proven by the fact that there are cuss words in the Swedish translations. After all, why censor some words but not all? That just doesn't make sense IMHO. For example, "goddamn" does not have a Swedish equivalent. Sure, you can translate it and say "damned by God" in Swedish but it would not mean the same thing or even be a cuss words. The infamous F-words (I typed that out once and Karen wasn't too happy ;)) doesn't have a Swedish equivalent either.

[Cataholic]

Oh, well, as long as you can excuse your behavior, I guess you are 'allowed' to make factual statments that aren't, really, uh, facts????

My point, if it isn't clear, is when you make these all knowing, all telling statments about books, Americans, politics, religion, (to name a few that I have seen from you), you just have to realize it is ONLY your opinion, not some 'fact'. When you try to enforce your set of facts, it is going to get a rise out of some people (like me).

[mugsy]

Sara, have you read any of the other books he's written? I'm going to look for his more recent work and see how his style changes when writing autobiographically. I haven't sat down and read a book in forever because my eyes get so sore and I'm so slow, but you guys are inspiring me to pick some up and start again. Maybe I'll hunt down my copy of CITR and see if I can't wade through it now.

[Nomilynn]

Mugsy - I have a TON of booklists for Young Adult Literature. I took a course on it last summer too and I loved it. If you want some website recommendations, let me know!

[Edwina's Secretary]

Mugsy.....

When I was in my Potok phase I though I read all he wrote but looking at the list I may have missed some. It was a loooonnnng time ago.

Now I'm intrigued to go back and look again!

Happy reading! (giggle....)

Sara

[Ann]

Originally posted by Cataholic
Oh, well, as long as you can excuse your behavior, I guess you are 'allowed' to make factual statments that aren't, really, uh, facts????

My point, if it isn't clear, is when you make these all knowing, all telling statments about books, Americans, politics, religion, (to name a few that I have seen from you), you just have to realize it is ONLY your opinion, not some 'fact'. When you try to enforce your set of facts, it is going to get a rise out of some people (like me).

You really seem to want a fight huh? Whatever, I'm not bringing you that satisfaction. I honestly don't care anymore. Besides, you obviously can't teach a close-minded human to have an open mind.

[mugsy]

Why don't you just DROP IT! The point has been made and the rest of us would just like to have a conversation about books. I, for one, am tired of it.