Help! Nikki doesn't like her daughter! ?????

[BoxerLover]

Nikki had puppies a little over a year ago. She was 10 months when she had them. One of the puppies lives down the street. Now, as I said, she is a little over a year old. Her name is Abby and she was the sixth born. Nikki and her have been playing together since she was born...up until now. Nikki seems like she is afraid of Abby. She growls, shakes, and cowers under a table or hides somewhere. My mom thinks it might be because Abby is WAY bigger than Nikki now, and she used to be so small, Nikki doesn't like it anymore. I dont want this to happen to my friends dog, Hunter, either. Nikki and him play all the time, but he is supposed to get bigger than her when he grows up. What if she gets scared of him, too? Also, Abby acts aggressive sometimes. I dont know...do you have any ideas? :confused:

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

This is not an uncommon problem - some bitches do not get along with their offspring after the offspring reach adulthood. My parents' neighbor bred their Husky bitch, and kept one of the males in the litter. The mama and son are very attached and never fight with each other. However, the owners tried to have a 'reunion' with one of the other littermates, when the 'puppies' were about a year old. The mama and son ganged up and attacked the other son, who had to be rescued and taken away by his owners. The family ties often do not mean that the dogs will be friends!
My Boo has a littermate sister who was also adopted into our area. When the two of them get together, they instantly growl and snarl - there's sibling rivalry for you!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Please forgive me for this following comment but....(I sometimes put my foot in my mouth).
Poor Nikki! She was way to young to have a litter of her own at the age of 10 months. She was still a baby herself. Hopefully you will take her to the vet and have her spayed before she has another litter.

Anyway...Your problem sounds like Abby has now decided she will be the dominate female of the two and is showing dominance aggression. Basically she thinks she is the pack leader between the two dogs. Nikki doesn't understand fully the role change and has developed a fear. Perhaps their play actually turned into a unfriendly fight in which Nikki was the loser. While you can work to help Nikki overcome her fear so that she is not afraid of all dogs bigger than her, Abby's owners also need to work with her on her aggressiveness.

Let's concentrate on Nikki:
First start out by helping Nikki to overcome her fear. Never use punishment to try to get her to overcome her fear (which I'm sure you already don't do). Let me use an example: If she cowers around bigger dogs and you jerk on her leash or force her in some way to be around them, you have reinforced her belief that bad things happen when big dogs are around.

Instead if you can consistently make good things happen when big dogs are around, Nikki will start to relax around bigger dogs and be able to be around them. To accomplish this you need to desensitize Nikki to the fear that bad things happen when big dogs are around. Use a reward program. What ever she loves (treats, toys, games, etc..) use as a reward. Vary the reward from time to time too so it doesn't get stale or boring. Find a location or place that you know other big dogs will be. It may be a park or training class or where ever. Take her there frequently. Make sure that Nikki is far away enough from big dogs so she doesn't feel threatened but close enough for them to be visable. When Nikki notices the bigger dogs give her a verbal praise such as YES or GOOD GIRL or whatever you have used to date. Immediately give her the reward. Each time she glances at the bigger dogs give her a praise and then a reward. After she gets the idea that "I look at a big dog and get a praise and a treat" you can begin to gradually move closer to the dogs and treat her for calm behavior only. If you notice the tiniest sign of nervousness on Nikki's part then stop and calmly retreat her. Keep her away from bigger dogs for play just yet. If someone comes over to you with a bigger dog please explain you are training and you need them to stay back! Getting Nikki upset or fearful when a big dog comes around would be a major set back until she's ready. Go slowly in getting her near big dogs again.

Once you can get close enough that she does not show fear have the owner of the big dog perhaps throw her a treat or her reward. Only do this if she is still calm. Be sure to do this with owners of big dogs that you know and trust that do not have dominate agreesive dogs. Their dog will be only a leash length away! Eventually you will start to see signs that Nikki is not fearful around big dogs and she can maintain her friendship with bigger dogs and not be afraid of Hunter when he grows up!

Take it slow as it may take some time and don't let her back around Abby until Abby's parents are willing to work with her on being a dominant agressive pup. Some socialization and obedience classes for her might be what that takes. That is a whole different topic though. Your concern should be Nikki.

One final thought.... It is nice for littermates and parents to stay in contact after the pups are weaned but it is not essential. At this point Nikki looks at Abby as another dog and not necessarily as her daughter.

Best of Luck in working his out. ;)

[BoxerLover]

Dixieland Dancer,
First, let me explain about Nikki. We were looking for a boxer to adopt two summers ago. We wanted one right away, so we placed calls everywhere. Finally, the Boxer Rescue Organization of Detroit called us and said they had a 10 month old, fawn, female boxer, and guess what! She was being moved to Howell!(read my topic "Super Karen! A dog's best Friend." in dog general) And thats exactly where we lived! It seemed like fate chose us to adopt her! :) The only thing was, that Nikki was abused, undernourished, had kennel cough, and infected lips! :( So did we still want her? Of course! More than ever! So we went down to Karens house to pick her up, with her new collar, bed, toys, etc. all in the van, ready to greet her. When we got there, we noticed that she had rather inflamed tits. Karen said that she was just in heat. Well, we took her home, and for two weeks, she had to be seperated from all of the other animals in the house so she stayed in the game room. I slept out there with her, cleaning up pee, snot puddles, giving her medicine, food, and water, and boy did we fall in love! We slept together on this little cot, her warm, skinny, sick body, all scrunched into mine. I fell asleep to her labored, thick breathing every night. We spent all of our time together.
Finally, she started to get better. She could come into the rest of the house now. We went to the vet to get her checked out and spayed. The vet had a feeling that Nikki was pregnet! He took pictures of her insides, and then he announced to us the big news...Nikki was pregnet! With six puppies! We asked when? He said, maybe tonight! :eek: We never even knew she was pregnet because she was soooo skinny and undernourished! She had been giving all of her nutrients to her puppies, so that they could live! Well, we had never had a dog who had puppies before, so we were in the dark! They gave us a packet about everything and sent us along our way. I exclaimed to Nikki, "You're gonna have puppies, and you're only a puppy yourself!" She just looked up at me with those trusting brown eyes and she sighed. So we went home and got her a whelping box, and waited.
Two nights later, on Thursday, June 28th, at 8:24, little Dottie came out in the whelping box, where I had been sitting by for almost two hours, when Nikki started breathing heavily. Dottie was white with brown ears and a brown eye patch. Next came Buddy, who was white with brown ears and two brown eye patches. Then came Saide, who was white with lots of brown patches everywhere. After her came Petey, who was white with brown ears, eye patches, and a dark brown patch right on his butt. Fifth was Brooke, who was all brown except some white on her toes. Finally, came Abby, she was all brown, with white on her toes and chest. We thought they were pure bred boxers, but the vet said they are mixed with St. Bernard and Lab. Thats why they are so big. That was a summer I will never forget as long as I live. So as you see, I didn't intend for Nikki to get pregnet at such a young age, she just did on her own while she was walkin the streets of Detroit. She is spayed now, and she is the best dog in the world! :)

Now then, what were we talking about before I dived into my past? Oh yes, Nikki isn't scared of ALL big dogs, just Abby. Actually, she thinks she is the boss of every other dog she meets, big or small. Thats something I need help with, too. She barks her head off at every dog she sees, and it kind of gets loud and annoying, ya know? So how do I stop that? Oh ya, and she is scared of men, because she was abused by one. She doesn't bark, just cowers. She used to have a problem with pulling, but we fixed that because we got her a Halti head halter. Now she heels like a perfect angel. So thats all I can type for now, because I am getting tired. Thanx for reading! Thats not even close to knowing all about Nikki, either, so if you want to know more, just ask! :)

[kobieeli]

What a wonderful story of your rescue! Nikki is obviously much better off with you than she'd been when "walking the streets of Detroit." You should be commended for taking in such a diamond in the rough, seeing her through her bad times,...and getting her spayed! She no doubt loves you more than you know. :)

[BoxerLover]

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[ August 29, 2001: Message edited by: BoxerLover ]

[BoxerLover]

Shoot...the cutest one didn't turn out and I don't know how to make it turn out! :mad:

[Dixieland Dancer]

BoxerLover,
I did stick my foot in my mouth. I am sooooo sorry! Your story was beautiful and if I could I'd put angel wings on your back. You certainly deserve them. Nikki is very blessed to have you in her life.

You can use the above method I described with teaching her to get over her fear of men. Just change big dogs for men. The theory is the same.

The story you told indicates that Nikki never had the chance to be properly socialized as a puppy. When other pups are still being socialized (the first year is critical) she was having babies of her own. She has missed out on an important part of her puppihood. :( My strongest suggestion would be to enroll her in a training class specifically designed to deal with such problems as barking and agression. Just having her around other dogs is a great socialization benefit to her at this point. The trainers will be able to pick up on any apparent skill that needs specific attention. Usually by the end of the course, most dogs can be fully integrated back into their local canine community. The best results are achieved by highly motivated owners who enjoy close bonds with their dogs. Sounds like you should succeed with flying colors :)

As far as Abby is concerned, I wouldn't push it. Maybe after Nikki's socialization class you can try to see how they react together.

Here's a thought: See if Abby's owners would enroll her in the same class that you join. You can learn together. :eek:

Best of Luck to you! ;)

[carrie]

The easiest thing to do with Nikki and Abbey is to say, "O.K. that's life!" and leave it at that.
That is not the way dogs work in a human world though.
In a dog world the Alpha bitch is the one that is breeding and, as you know, at 10 months your undernourished, weak and desperate boxer sure wasn't an Alpha. Her daughter, with a better start in life and proper housing, food and support from her owners looks on Mum (sorry - Mom) as the competition.
To try to rectify the status quo do not let them off lead to play together at your house or at daughter's house. Get them together at a location that is neutral, nobody's territory. Do a little training together - a really great one for this is to get the dogs to sit and stay and then call the daughter first and reward her hugely, then Mom and reward her really well, but not as much as the daughter. You are trying to tell the daughter that she is above Mom in status and everyone is supporting her so she has less inclination to prove it. You are also showing Mom that everyone else understands the status and that she is safe and well in the position she is in. The natural reaction to comfort and soothe a dog that is "bullied" in this way only puts more stress on both dogs. Nikki is trying to show that she accepts that her daughter is higher than her but in an way that is encouraging the attacks. As she gets support from you the daughter is forced to press her point further and further. If you can back off and the daughter's owner enforce a little more control this will take a huge amount of pressure off both dogs and greatly reduce Mom's fear of an attack as she will understand, as will daughter, that there is no need for one.

Other things you can do - this is hard for the owner of the underdog, be warned, and often very hard for the owner of the higher ranking dog too but it is the natural way of things and will make both dogs feel a lot more settled and relaxed - get the owner of the daughter to totally ignore your dog when you first meet up but you, leaving Mom for a few seconds either with someone else or tied to a tree a few feet away, make a fuss of daughter. Get your dog to lie down while on the lead and let the daughter off - if she will play fetch all the better, get her owner to play a couple of throws with her. If not then a few excersises in heeling and short recall, on a line ( or flexi lead - this is what these things were made for) would be good at first. After the short play/training session (reinforces who is in control of daughter - don't be shy of correcting any disobeyed command that daughter knows!) give the daughter the signal to go play ( this may need teaching at home first but most people have a signal that they use without even knowing it. "That'll do." is the classic, but I say, "Off you go." "O.K." is fine...whatever as long as it is the signal that the dog is free to do it's own thing.)
When daughter approaches Mom you make a fuss of daughter and give her a ball throw/treat or whatever she likes and then let your dog off the lead, ignoring whatever she does. You stand up, still making a fuss of daughter and trying to keep her attention on toy/food/fetch game. As soon as daughter leaves Mom put them both on their leads, both humans fuss daughter and you go your seperate ways to your own homes.
MAJOR fuss and play for both, but especially Mom when you get home.
Do this two or three times a day if you can manage it - but make sure that both of you humans can get both of the dogs to pay attention to you when you want them to!
Take it step by step - as your bitch relaxes and the daughter becomes less aggressive you can stop being so over the top in your approach.

BE WARNED THOUGH - some bitches will never give it up when they find a punch bag who will take it and it is up to you to decide if the daughter is making a real show for show's sake or if damage is being, or likely to be done, to your bitch. This again is natural, it is simply the casting out of an Alpha that is not up to scratch.

The hardest and the most important thing is to stay relaxed and calm. If things go wrong then your friend has her dog on a flexi lead or line and can haul in if needed, but don't be put off by a bit of growling. If your bitch grovels to you looking for support, don't look at her, stay calm and let her cope with it. When she realises that she can cope with it life will open up for her and she will be a much happier being.

[BoxerLover]

Thanx for all of your help!
Ahem... First of all, Dixie. I hate to say it, but I can't afford to enroll Nikki into a class. :( I wish I could, but it's just too expensive. Even if it was five dollars, my mom wouldn't spend it. That is a good idea with the men, but I've already tried it, but she will not go within 10 ft of a man, and if she does, she'll bark and run away. I keep trying it anywhere we go, though.

Carrie,
I will try all that you said, but you don't know Nikki. She gets so jealous when I pet other dogs around her. She will not tolerate all of that attention to Abby, and not her. She is spoiled, and if I pet any dog that she doesn't like, she'll explode! She doesn't mind when I pet most dogs, just the ones she hates. Like Abby. I will try it though. :)

[carrie]

Oh dear, this is the conflict that I am talking about. If Nikki is going to have a fit when you make a fuss of Abbey then she is confusing herself and Abbey as to who is higher in rank. For this to work she simply must accept that as the lower ranking animal to you she must wait for her turn calmly.
Before trying the off lead work you must teach Nikki to sit and wait while you fuss other dogs.
You will need the help of another person or a good strong post or tree to hold her. Tell her to sit and stay, walk towards Abbey, give her a quick pat and if Nikki remains calm go back to her and reward her. If she reacts badly turn towards with your arms crossed and walk look up at the sky until she is VERY calm. Then calmly reward her and try again. Move onto the off lead work only when you are getting no reaction from Nikki even when you make a big fuss of Abbey. When Nikki stays calm make sure you make a very big fuss of her but do it calmly.

[Dixieland Dancer]

There may be a good book on correcting agression out there that someone has that you might be able to borrow since you can't go to a class? :confused: I do not have any but would be willing to buy it for you and send it to you if someone can recommend one. In the mean time, next time I go to the bookstore I will look for one. If I find one, I'll notify you. ;)

[BoxerLover]

Thanx you guys! You are so helpful! I have started Nikki on "unaggresion" by not letting her sleep on my bed, not letting her jump up, making her sit and wait before she eats and goes outside, and making her heel(which she is doing very nicely). She is a very good dog until she meets other dogs that she does not know or does not like. I will try to find books about that in the near future. Thanx again!