Non-primary English Speakers (EASL) [Archive]

NoahsMommy

01-12-2003, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Cincy'sMom
As an American, born and bred I can't answer any of your questions, but I do think we, as Americans expect to have everything in our language. If we go to another country, we expect everyone to know what we are saying, ando to understand us, but if others come here, we also want them to learn our language. So I guess I want to add the question to the rest of the world...do you think Americans in general, are rude selfish people?
Maybe its because of where you live, but here in CA, its the EXACT opposite. We have many, many Mexican immigrants that refuse to learn the language. (Most likely because we make that OK) And, everyone I know feels that if we were to go to say, China, we'd feel we would need to learn the language, especially if we were living there. This may be a "California Opinion"....but this is how I've grown up, quite the contrary to what you have dealt with Cincy's Mom. Isn't that interesting?

Great thread Catoholic....I know that when I took French in high school and college, I began to think and write in mixed language...I"ve often wondered if those who use two languages regularly do the same.

Soledad

01-12-2003, 08:01 PM

My grandparents lived in NYC for 25 + years and never learned English. It wasn't to be mean or rude or to spite people. They just never needed to learn for their jobs, and most of their friends were Spanish speaking. The fact that they had about a 3rd grade education probably didn't help.

I just don't understand why Americans get so enraged when people don't speak English in America. There is no "official" language in this country and it's not as if people do it intentionally to offend you. Have you ever tried to learn a language as an adult? And how many Americans are bilingual?

Cataholic

01-12-2003, 09:10 PM

I AM TAKING THIS THRED BACK OVER!!!

I am not looking for a philosophical discussion. My questions were really as simple as they seemed. Please start your own thred if you want these other very interesting questions answered. I have always been curious about this, well, since I joined PT, and really just want these simple questions answered.

Please?? Pretty please?

popcornbird

01-12-2003, 11:10 PM

I was born and raised in the States, so English is my primary language, even though I am tri-lingual. I speak Urdu at home most of the time, and English otherwise, so I guess this question doesn't really apply to me, however, most of my family (aunts/uncles/cousins) that live in Pakistan "know" English, so I may be able to answer from their perspective. Although their primary language is Urdu, they know English VERY well (with an accent of course) but they can understand everything we say and can talk as well as us too *when they want to.* I never really talk to my cousins in English (besides on Internet chat) but I did a couple of times when we went to visit just to tease them. I used very had words that I "thought" they wouldn't understand, but they responded surprisingly well and knew exactly what the hard words meant. I was amazed that they knew English that well when they never lived in an English speaking country.

Oh and in answer to the question if we think Americans in general are self-fish in that they feel everyone should know English whether they live here or there, I would say that the certain Americans that feel that way are, however, I don't know many of those kinds of people personally. Most of the people that I know are very much interested in other languages and they think its cool to know other languages. I don't think Californians in general really care, but people in other states, some of them are rude and self-fish. (Californians are my favorite Americans). :p I don't mean that people from other states are bad or anything, but from my experience, the ones that I've met (not all) consider themselves as superior to people of other races and countries.

Former User

01-13-2003, 01:58 AM

Well, I've loved English language ever since we had to start learning it at school on 3rd grade (age 9-10), and maybe that's why, it never has been a problem for me to learn it. When I was still living in Finland, I didn't have a chance to speak it so much, but I kept my english alive by having lots of penpals from all oveer the world. Now that I live here in Belgium, english is my main language as that's what I use to communicate with my husband.

I have not needed a dictionary that many times here at PT, and when I have, it has been some of those medical words that have come up. I can't say myself whether my english is as "good" when I speak and write it, but at least my husband understands me (and his father is British so he has been talking english since the day he learnt how to speak). I feel that english is my mother tongue now, since I speak it all the time. I've seen a huge improve ever since I had to start talking it all day, I'm more confident and not afraid to use it anymore. I was horrified at first when I had to speak infront of Patrick's father, I thought he would keep correcting me all the time, but he just said if you make mistakes, you will, it's not the end of the world. And you can always learn from them. That's right. And I can only learn and improve my english if I keep using it.

Im my opinion, English is a pretty easy language to learn compared to some other languages, for example Finnish or Dutch (that's what I'm studying now), but of course it depends on the people too, some people just don't have the 'ear' for new languages...

My best friend here in Belgium is American, and she has said that some Americans don't bother to learn a new language because "everyone speaks english anyway". She herself is different though, she speaks great Dutch already and is learning French now. And when I had penpals from US, few of them spoke German, so it's just up to the people. I woulnd't say American's are different in this than others.

Phew, long enough answer ;)

01-13-2003, 02:42 AM

I loved English from the first day we learned it at school (age 13)!It sounds great , and it is really much easier than other languages like French or German !! The grammar is simple , compared to French ; example the verb "to give"

--> French : Je donne , tu donnes , il donne , nous donnons , vous donnez , ils donnent .
--> English : I give , you give , he gives , we give , you give , they give .

Clear , isn't it !!:D

When I learn a new language , I try to speak it as much as possible . I also read books in their original language ! I am also NOT afraid to make mistakes :rolleyes: :eek: ,(he he). When we moved to the USA for 2 years in '83 , I was glad I could communicate with the people around me ! They said I spoke English really well , and also that I had a funny accent .
ha ha , I am still trying to find out what sounds so funny then ...:p :D ;.Oh well , I KNOW I make mistakes , but I do not really care ! As long as I can make myself understandable ...;)

If I need a dictionnary ? Rarely ; when I take one , it is more to look up how a word it is written .

And NO , Americans are NOT selfish nor arrogant !!! I've lived in St.Louis for 2 years , and I still cherish our friends we made then !! When we arrived there , everybody was so helpful and friendly ; I will NEVER forget that !! I LOVE AMERICANS (and I mean it !!) !!!!!!

ps. My advize to everybody who moves to another country : try to learn the local language ASAP ; it is so much easier to communicate and understand the people there , and they all appreciate to hear a "foreigner" speak a few words in their own language !!

Lillycat

01-13-2003, 02:53 AM

interesting thread.....

Barbara

01-13-2003, 03:44 AM

My first non-German language was French. I've been learning 9 years of French at school and then I was married to a French. So, my French was rather idiomatic. I had only learned 3 years English. But at the university I needed English because I studied physics and English is definitely the language of science and after that in business I needed it very much too. We have sister companies in the US, UK and Singapore with whom I work so I daily have to speak or write English. I also read English books.

I feel that posting here helps me in non-formal language. I sometimes need dictionaries, especially for haikus, but not often. The trick is to say it in a different way if you don't have the word to say what you want.
I am sure that this makes my English less precise than my German would be.

The next thing is about emotions. I have the impression that it is easier to speak about emotions in a foreign language. Because there is always the additional distance provided by the language.

Anyway, nobody here has to write basic English to make sure, Lut and I and all the others understand. We are talking about cats arent't we -and that is our specialty:D :D :D

Barbara

01-13-2003, 03:49 AM

To Cincy's mom: American's -rude selfish people?
I wonder how anybody can have this idea who has been at PT for a time. I am sure there are rude selfish people in any nation. I try to avoid them:D
Here I would see a really high level of humanity, acceptance of others and friendship.
I was really wondering how a theme like atheism could be discussed here. Nearly all posts were understanding, tolerant and even wise. I am proud to be part of a community like this.

P.S. For Americans it is of course easier to get around with their own language. If you go from Vancouver to Orlando, then in Europe you would have crossed 10 countries with 14 different languages (due to the fact that countries like Belgium and Switzerland have more than one official language).

Ann

01-13-2003, 04:40 AM

Swedish is obviously my original language but I think I speak English almost just as well. Lived in the USA for a long time and my boyfriend is from California.

Originally posted by Cincy'sMom
do you think Americans in general, are rude selfish people?

Not really moreso than other countries, but ignorant YUP.

nsweezie

01-13-2003, 07:28 AM

English is my first language, but I have spoken French since I was about 10, many people in Canada can speak at least a little of both official languages.
I have a friend in Norway who is coming to live in Canada for a year, and they have promised to teach me some Norwegian. I'd love to learn more languages, I have such admiration for people who can speak 3 or 4 or more languages.

Randi

01-13-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Cataholic
Do you speak English as well as you write it? Do you sometimes know what we are saying by the rest of the words?
Your first question is normally put the other way around here, "Do you write english as well as you speak it?" I'm glad to say I do. Years ago I helped a friend translate a dentist professors speach from danish into english. I tell you that was hard work! Last year I did a written english test at a Temp Bureau and they said " You did great, there were only 3 mistakes!" - one of them I knew about, so I was quite content. :)

As to figuring out a word I don't know in a sentence, I usually find that easy, but it does happen I have to look it up in a dictonary. Sometimes I ask John - he's british. I mostly ask him about the more subtle meanings of words, so I can express myself excact. John and I normally speak danish, unless we're with english/american friends.

When I first saw Phred's posts, I was a bit confused, but I soon got used to his writing, and enjoy it immensely now! :D Very talented!

I find it much easier to speak english with someone who has a huge vocabulary, it makes my english flow better. One of our friends, a translater (who unfortunately died last year) spoke excellent english and made a point of always using words we'd never heard before - that's a good way of learning!

The frustrating part is that, I sometimes stumble over words if I try to speak too fast - or if I'm tired.

I started learning english in school when I was about 10 and I didn't find it that difficult, but I'm sure the mere interest made it easier. ;)

I'm trying to learn spanish now, it's actually not very difficult - apart from some grammer! :rolleyes: I've never bothered to learn german or french, just wasn't interested.

Some of you may not have seen this, I think it's hilarious! :D

An interesting article highlighting British power over Germany.

The European Union have recently announced that finally an agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and as such has accepted a five year phased plan to implement what will become known as EuroEnglish .

In the first year, 's' will be used instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly sivil servants will resieve this news with joy . Also the hard 'c' will be replased with 'k`. Not only will this klear up konfusion, but typewriters kan have one less letter .

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome 'ph' will be replased by 'f'. This will make words like 'fotograf' 20 per sent shorter .

In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible, which have always been a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful and they wil go .

By the fourth year , peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 'th' by 'z' and 'w'
by 'v'

During ze fifz year , ze unesesary 'o' kan be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou', and similar changes vud of kore be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters .

After zis fifz year, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.

Ze drem vil finali kum tru !

Tubby & Peanut's Mom

01-13-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Casper & Kitty
When I was still living in Finland, I didn't have a chance to speak it so much, but I kept my english alive by having lots of penpals from all oveer the world.

I am as American as you can get, born and raised here, with many generations of the same behind me, so English is the only language I really know - but I am trying to learn German, so this is from a little different perspective. As Niina mentined, the most important part of learning a language is the continual usage of it, and that is the hardest part for me learning German. Since, as mentioned, we Americans expect everyone to know English, there are very few people I talk to on a regular basis that know German, so I don't get that many chances to actually use it in a day to day setting. I listen to may tapes and such, but that only gets you so far.

Terry works for a German company, so when we go over there it's usually for work, but it still puts us in contact with many Germans on a social basis. They speak English to us, because they know we don't understand German. When they start apologizing for their English, we always say "Don't worry about it, you English is much better than our German." ;) They always have to agree and smile about that one. :) They also seem to be impressed with the fact that I am trying to understand them in their own language. Since most Americans make such little effort to learn another language, they seem surprised when they come across one.

Another thing I've noticed is that a lot of times even though English is most peoples' only language, their usage of it is not always correct. And it seems that a lot of people who have another first language know "better" English than the English speakers. By that I mean they know all the correct usages and will sometimes even correct us - and sometimes don't get our humor or jesting because it's in a kind of "lazy English" I call it.

Anyway, so this doesn't get too long, I believe that every American child should be made to learn a foreign language - and keep at it all through high school. It seems if you start them young, children can learn a language a lot easier than an adult can. However, I'm glad that there is and "international" language that many people speak so that we can have people from many contries interacting in such places as this. If everyone spoke their own language, we would not have gotten to know Niina, Lut, Barbara, Koxka, Randi & John, Efrat and all the others from other countries that are here at PT - not to mention C & K, Sydney, Maya, Inka, Fister, etc. ;) :D I'm glad this is such an "international" site and there are enough people her from elsewhere to enable Catholic to even ask such a question. Thanks Cataholic!

Cataholic

01-13-2003, 09:45 AM

Thanks for the answers!!! It was just what I was looking for. I would LOVE to work on my german...and spanish, come to think of it. Maybe one of the bi or tri speakers could start a baby thred?

Randi- I never thought about the difficulty you might have with Phred's posts. I, too, totally adore the way he writes..especially when it is about the prayer line going up to God. His writing really forces you to 'hear' the english, since it so phonetical.

Thanks again, and I give this thred over to anyone now that my questions have been answered.

Really, how many different ways is there to say, "Meow"??? He he he..

01-13-2003, 09:57 AM

Meow ?? Here , my cats speak Dutch kitty-talk . So "meow" is here "MIAUW" ...;) . When they are hungry , it is "miauw-auw" , and when they are happy welcoming me home , it is "mwauw !!" (which means : Hi , glad you are home, what's for dinner ?)

cats , who could live without them ...:rolleyes: :eek:

Edwina's Secretary

01-13-2003, 11:07 AM

I was in a program that began Spanish lessons in the 5th grade (age 10.) I continued it through high school (with a year off for Latin) and spent a summer of intense study in Mexico.

It has been VERY helpful to me in my career -- including allowing me a two year assignment back in Mexico. It has given me the edge in the job market.

As a consequence I am in AWE of those on Pettalk who participate in other than their native language. I KNOW what an accomplishment it is! I would far rather speak than write Spanish (mistakes go away quicker!) And to joke and write poetry! AWESOME is truly applicable to these people.

(And I work soooo hard never to be political on here but this time I can't contol myself....
We have many, many Mexican immigrants that refuse to learn the language It is "who" refuse ....by the way. It is also these people who perform back-breaking, filthy, minimum wage work that no native born American is willing to perform.)

Tanya&Fritz

01-13-2003, 11:31 AM

I'm bilingual (English and French). Like nsweezie said, a lot of Canadians are bilingual, especially the eastern provinces.

popcornbird

01-13-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Ann

Not really moreso than other countries, but ignorant YUP.

I second that. :D

NoahsMommy

01-13-2003, 01:17 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have many, many Mexican immigrants that refuse to learn the language
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is "who" refuse ....by the way. It is also these people who perform back-breaking, filthy, minimum wage work that no native born American is willing to perform.

I didn't mean anything bad by this. Of course I value those from other countries, especialy those I live so closely with. It is sad that these people are basically made to take all the "lowly" jobs, its terrible, but others do do them as well, mentally challanged people for one. There are so many more Mexican immigrants who are doing very well.

What I was referring to above has been based on my experience in living in Southern California for 24 years. It was in no way rude or ethnocentric.

For example, the child that I advocate for has a mother who refuses-literally refuses-to learn the language she needs, to understand what she is being charged with in court. She utterly refuses to learn the language that would be somewhat important to know if you are in the court system. Her daughter ("my child"), has told me that her parents refuse to speak/learn/understand Engish. I don't think it is meant to be offensive, they just don't need to learn it. California has enabled them not to have to learn the language, just like Soledad was talking about.

I don't mind at all that her family doesn't speak the language, what I DO mind is when they act like they can't understand words like "Is Cristina OK???" After she's been taken to a hospital just because I'm the "enemy". :mad:

Anyway, off the subject, sorry about that. Just wanted to clear that up.

DoggiesAreTheBest

01-13-2003, 02:18 PM

I am fluent in English, Arabic, and French. I learned Arabic from my father, English from my Mother, and was schooled in French up until I went to college. I went to school in Lebanon where there is a huge emphasis on foriegn languages. Arabic was the basic language that was taught. When you started school, your parents choose which language they want you schooled in: English or French. All your sciences, math, and social studies are taught in that langauge. When you are in the 6th grade, you pick up the other language as a foriegn language. My mom and dad chose for me to learn French early on since I was being taught English at school by my mother.

My cousins all speak English very fluently. They have an accent, but can speak and understand the language just like any other English speaking person. It took lots of practice and studying for them to get that way, just like our ESL Pet Talkers!!

Soledad

01-13-2003, 03:50 PM

You know what upsets me, though? Americans who only speak English but despite only having to master one language, have no ability to speak properly or write with correct spelling or grammar.

We all make mistakes from time to time, but I'm talking about the especially egregious errors. You know, like having basic subject-verb agreement?

Cincy'sMom

01-13-2003, 04:07 PM

I'm glad to hear people have a good opinion of American's in general. Sometimes I hear my friends talk about how anyone who comes to this country should learn our language, and I think they are insane!

I would think that one of the hardest parts of learning english, or participating in an primarily english speaking forum, such as this, would be understanding the slang. And I am sure that is true in any language, but some of the phrases we commonly use, taken literally probally seem very odd :)

NoahsMommy

01-13-2003, 04:09 PM

Soledad,

I totally agree!!! That has to be one of my biggest pet pieves, especially the spoken word. My in-laws are notorious for this one...they say things like mashmellow (marshmellow), libary (library), flustrated (frustrated) and ice-box (I know, but they are native Californians!). It annoys me to no end because I can't say anything. ;)

At work, there is a person who referred to the song her son sang in his school holiday play as singing in "Jewish"! I can't even say how much it bothered me after I told her it was most likely the "Hebrew" language, she kept saying her son was singing in "Jewish"!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Miss Meow

01-13-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Randi

When I first saw Phred's posts, I was a bit confused, but I soon got used to his writing, and enjoy it immensely now! :D Very talented!

I am a native English speaker and I had no idea!!! Now I am in awe of the effort he puts into his posts :)

I try to avoid slang and sarcasm in my posts as it is harder to interpret and easier to offend using the written word than in real life. The funny thing is that Americans (generally speaking) find my humour harder to understand than the Europeans.

Cataholic

01-13-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by NoahsMommy
[COLOR=teal]Soledad,
...they say things like mashmellow (marshmellow), libary (library),

He he he...I say Libary!!!! I don't know why, but I do. I know it is wrong, but, I just got into the habit.

Cataholic

01-13-2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Miss Meow

The funny thing is that Americans (generally speaking) find my humour harder to understand than the Europeans.

Maybe....uhm,...it might be that.....YOU AREN'T FUNNY????

hah hahahahahahahahah I am, though, aren't I?:D :p :D :p :eek: :eek: :eek:

Miss Meow

01-13-2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Cataholic

Maybe....uhm,...it might be that.....YOU AREN'T FUNNY????

hah hahahahahahahahah I am, though, aren't I?:D :p :D :p :eek: :eek: :eek:

I knew there was a reason!

Oh yeah, bag of fun, you are!!! :D

Twisterdog

01-13-2003, 05:39 PM

Well, I'm a native English speaker, so I don't quite fit the category. However, I also speak French, having taking it in school for many years. I also know some Spanish, although I learned it informally, not in a classroom setting.

I have noticed, in traveling, that English is spoken very widely in many countries by many people. I don't think it is so much that Americans "expect" people in other countries to speak English, so much as we just notice that they do, and - obviously - prefer to converse with them English if we can.

If people in other countries learn English, and teach it as a basic part of their school curiculum, this is nothing Americans have "expected" or "demanded."

My personal opinion is that if I moved to Germany or Holland or Pakistan to live, I should learn the language and not expect the citizens of that country to make exceptions and go out of their way for me, just so that I could continue to speak English. If I'm on a week's vacation, however, I think it's different. Tourists who travel a lot cannot possibly learn every language fluently for every country they visit. (I do always learn how to ask where the restrooms are, though. ;) )

I feel the same way about people who come to America ... if they are coming to visit, of course they are going to speak their native tongue and we'll get by with translators and hand signs. :) But if they are moving here to live, they should learn English.

And I agree - poor grammar, sentence structure and very bad spelling drive me crazy! I have to bite my tongue (or cross my fingers, whichever the case may be) to keep from constantly correcting them! I always wonder how these people manage to get through school without even learning the basics!! I know I make some errors, everyone does ... but some people's speech and writing are simply horrible!

All Creatures Great And Small

01-13-2003, 05:57 PM

Hey, no generalizing here about us horrid Americans! :D I don't think ALL Americans are ignorant. I think there is a percentage of ignorant persons in ANY country, just like there are wonderfully intelligent, insightful, educated, culturally diverse people in every country. I could base my entire opinion of France and French people on my visit to Paris (which I found quite unpleasant), but thankfully, I later visited the rural areas of France and found wonderful, friendly people there. I also saw a lot of "stupid Americans" behaving very, well, American, like the guy shouting at the French bus driver in English, thinking that if he just raised the volume, the driver would suddenly speak a second language flawlessly. :rolleyes: I have always admired the ability of a person to speak English as a second language, no matter how thick the accent or how many errors made. I know there are some Americans who berate people for this and treat them like they are stupid, and it's extremely rude and should not represent the American people as a whole.

As far as being required to speak English when you are an American citizen - no, I guess English isn't the "official" language of this country, since the country is made up of so many ethnicities, but it seems to be the most commonly used one. If it were me, and I moved to France (ack!), I would feel the need to learn the language, even just the basics, ASAP, since the majority of the people in that country speak French, and most of them ONLY French. (It's terrifying to me to be in a different country and not understand what is going on around you, which is why I won't travel to a country where I don't speak that language. I only went to France because my sister speaks French and could translate for me.) It's too much to expect that a nation will be comprised entirely of bilingual, trilingual, or multilingual citizens - there just aren't that many extremely bright people out there, nor excellent schools in every area of a nation. Soledad mentioned that her parents couldn't learn English because of their low level of education - which is probably why a lot of Americans can't learn Spanish/French/German/Japanese etc. to accomodate and communicate clearly with immigrants. It's not because we don't WANT to welcome them; we just didn't learn a second language. I didn't expect every French citizen I encountered to speak English, any more than visitors/immigrants to this country should expect us ALL to speak their native language.

And I am EXTREMELY glad that I have been able to share my love of pets with all of the wonderful people on Pet Talk who don't live in America, and I am glad they were bright enough to learn another language and communicate so well in it, since I'm too dumb to learn one! :D :p

Soledad

01-13-2003, 07:07 PM

The problem is, most people who come to America and don't speak English do so because they simply don't have the time or the resources.

Now, my grandparents' lack of education was probably an issue. However, it didn't stop my grandfather from getting his poetry published or from raising eight children. In short, they were undereducated, but far from stupid.

However, their biggest deterent for learning English was time and money. Try being a migrant farm worker and raising eight kids. See if you have the strength and energy left over to learn a second language.

It is not too much to expect that a country be bilingual for the most part. It happens all over the world. For some reason, we underestimate ourselves.

All Creatures Great And Small

01-13-2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Soledad
It is not too much to expect that a country be bilingual for the most part. ,unless some of it's citizens don't have the time or resources to learn the second language, because of their work or family obligations. In America, which would we choose to be the second language anyway? There are so many different people here that want their language equally represented and understood. Soledad, your family would have liked for Americans to speak the native language of the country they came from as the second language, but what about all the other immigrants to this country? If it's not too much to expect a country to be bilingual, then the country your family came from would have been bilingual, and they would have learned two languages before they got here. The question is, which two? The fact that America is not bilingual is not so much due to exclusivity and ignorance as it is to the impossibility of narrowing it down to one second language. I don't know why English is the "backup" language in so many other countries; could it be because of the wide range of the British Empire way back when? I'm not so jingoistic as to think that it's because of us Americans, that we have demanded to be accommodated globally.

Twisterdog, I agree with you on your entire post, especially on the tourism aspect - they have some of the world's most famous art treasures in the Louvre, attracting visitors from all over the globe, and yet the signs there were exclusively in French. I think in this country we try to accommodate other languages as far as multilingual or international symbol-type signs at major tourist attractions.
Oh well - my fault for not learning French, I guess. (Actually, I took 2 years of Spanish in junior high, but I didn't retain too much of the information - I never had a chance to use it much.)

Soledad

01-13-2003, 08:34 PM

AllCreatures -

My point about detailing my grandparents' experiences was to indirectly point out how difficult and unrealistic it is to expect adult immigrants to learn the language, it was not to enforce your view that bilingualism is an impossibility.

If we made it a priority to educate our children so that they were bilingual at an early age (not highschool or junior high) as other countries do, we would easily see a change.

It doesn't matter what language is selected, it matters that people just get out there and do it. I think that Spanish is probably the MOST relevant to the average American.

However, my family never expected people in America to speak their language. That is not the case at all. They simply operated in circles which guaranteed them the most efficiency, which were Spanish-speaking ones. They knew that they should learn English, and they did learn basics, but they simply did not have the money to hire a tutor nor the time it takes to speak a second language fluently.

Twisterdog

01-13-2003, 09:13 PM

It IS much more difficult for an adult to learn a language than it is for a child to learn a language, that's for sure! I'm amazed at these tiny children I see here ... four or five years old! ... translating what is said to them in English into Spanish for their parents.

I think requiring a second language in our school system is an excellent idea. I personally think everyone should be bilingual, no matter what country they live in. Of course, I think we should all get to choose which language we learn, not have it a requirement, made by our government.

I also don't think any country should be required or feel obligated to teach a parallel school curiculum to imigrants in their native tongue.

My son's father's family is Hispanic. My son speaks no Spanish whatsoever, although he will probably take it when he enter junior high. My son's father speaks no more Spanish than I do ... pertinent phrases and basic nouns and verbs. His parents speak a little more. His grandparents are fluent, but also fluent in English. His great-grandparents knows pertinent phrases and basic nouns and verbs in English, but basically speak only Spanish. I think that is common, each generation that is here speaks English better.

Soledad

01-13-2003, 10:03 PM

I also don't think any country should be required or feel obligated to teach a parallel school curiculum to imigrants in their native tongue.

I'm not sure that any country IS required to do this. I don't see a problem with having bilingual teachers to help ease kids into learning English, but I haven't heard of (but wouldn't be entirely surprised) a school that is required by law to teach a parallel curriculum in a child's native language for their entire schooling lives.

That's just impractical and not desirable.

However, I do think that a smart country would invest in getting good ESL programs into their schools as immigrants are essential to economic wellbeing. When their ability to speak the most spoken language of the country is limited, so are their job opportunities.

That said, I think a lot of positive reinforcement about the importance of immigrants' native languages should exist in these programs. Too often, immigrants' desires to assimilate mean that their children lose out on their culture, as is your son's and son's father's case.

popcornbird

01-13-2003, 10:27 PM

ACG&S, no one said ALL Americans are ignorant, however, a vast majority are. I know MANY Americans that aren't ignorant, but I know a lot more that are. There are deffinately ignorant people in the whole world, but there are a whole lot of ignorant people in America, no doubt. ;)

Twisterdog

01-13-2003, 10:36 PM

Too often, immigrants' desires to assimilate mean that their children lose out on their culture, as is your son's and son's father's case.

Soledad, yes, that's very true. A very rich cultural heritage is often lost. I'm actually much more interested in the Hispanic culture than my son's father is, and I'm actually the one that teaches my son what little Spanish he knows.

There are deffinately ignorant people in the whole world, but there are a whole lot of ignorant people in America, no doubt.

Popcornbird, ignorant of what? Ignorance is specific to a certain subject ... I'm very ignorant about how car engines work, someone else may be ignorant about calculus. To what are you referring when you say Americans are ignorant? Ignorant of other cultures? Other languages?

popcornbird

01-13-2003, 10:44 PM

Ignorant of other cultures and religions and what's going on in the world. :) That's what I mean, not about cars and those things! LOL! Other nations are ignorant in other regards.

Twisterdog

01-13-2003, 11:15 PM

Ignorant of other cultures and religions and what's going on in the world.

Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying that. I was about to get my hackles up there, thinking you meant Americans are ignorant about everything, just a bunch of rude hicks. ;)

Yeah, we are pretty wrapped up in our own world. Not all of us, to be sure, but a good portion of us. But we're a bunch of good eggs, overall, methinks. :)

popcornbird

01-13-2003, 11:26 PM

An example of American ignorance about other people:

Today we went to the store to return a tweezer that my mom bought yesterday because it didn't work good. We got this old racist cashier when we went to return it. He started yelling at us and saying, "WHY DO YOU WANT TO RETURN IT???? THERE"S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT? WHY????? AND WHY ARE YOU HERE SO LATE? WHY COULDN'T YOU RETURN IT IN THE MORNING???" :mad: UGH!

First of all, its none of his business what time we come to return a product. We came at the most convenient time, and that was 6:30 pm. Since when did 6:30 become late? :confused:
Second, he has no right to yell at us like he did because we wanted to return a product. We bought it, it didn't work well (our old broken one works better) and we have the full right to return it, and we ARE AMERICANS. (Even if we weren't, foreigners have the same right to return things as citizens.)
If something doesn't work right, a consumer has the full right to return a product. We just bought it yesterday, had the reciept, and that racist idiot was yelling at us like we bought it 10 years ago. Sheesh. :rolleyes: Why did he do this? Obviously, because we "look" different, are not white, and are of a different religion. Full of ignorance. He returned it eventually but after acting like a total idiot, and he was serving the other white Americans as they are supposed to be treated. If you "looked" foreign, you would probably realize American ignorance more than you do now. :)

Twisterdog

01-13-2003, 11:54 PM

Why did he do this? Obviously, because we "look" different, are not white, and are of a different religion. Full of ignorance.

Maybe. Or, maybe he was just having a bad day, had a headache, or got in an argument with his wife that morning?? You never know what causes people to behave as they do. I'm certainly not trying to justify his behavior in any way ... but perhaps it had nothing to do with racism at all?

If you "looked" foreign, you would probably realize American ignorance more than you do now.

That's probably very true, popcornbird, sadly. :(

Ann

01-14-2003, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Hey, no generalizing here about us horrid Americans! :D I don't think ALL Americans are ignorant. I think there is a percentage of ignorant persons in ANY country, just like there are wonderfully intelligent, insightful, educated, culturally diverse people in every country.

Well, the fact is sadly that the majority of Americans are ignorant, moreso than any other country I know of.

Most Americans know nothing about the outside world, nor do they care (which is even worse). When I lived in California the most common question I got was "Where's Sweden?".

I belive that if September 11th happened in... let's say Reykjavik, I doubt anyone in the USA would have known or really cared that much, nor would they be talking about it and posting memorials years after. And yet we are all human beings and deserve to be remembered.

There was a reaserch done a while ago, concerning USA's geography. Turned out the kids in Europe did better than the kids in the USA.

Americans tend to know very little, next to nothing, about other cultures or religions nor respect them. I was called a "devil worshipper" and a "heathen" by a pastor in California because I said I found Shintoism very interesting and a better religion that Christianity.

How many Americans think about all the innocent people that died in Afghanistan in the aftermath of September 11th? Most people seem to think they are all just little Bin Laden copies and think it "suits them right" (actual quote from an American I spoke to once).

I really could go on forever...

01-14-2003, 04:47 AM

As I posted before , I had a great time during the 2 years we lived in the USA ! But , as I read Ann's reply , something came back in my memory ! I was asked several times where Belgium was situated . One person even thought Belgium was somewhere in Russia ...:rolleyes: :eek: !

I don't think kids get lots of geography at school in the US (I mean international geography) . Here , it is a tough subject at school . In my school , it was even required to know where EVERY country in the world was situated , its capital , etc..

wolf_Q

01-14-2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by lut

I don't think kids get lots of geography at school in the US (I mean international geography) . Here , it is a tough subject at school . In my school , it was even required to know where EVERY country in the world was situated , its capital , etc..

I was required to take a Geography class (in 9th grade) and also a World History/World Cultures class (in 10th grade). Yes, we were required to know where every country is and it's capital. And I DID know.....I'm sorry, I don't try to be "ignorant"...you can classify it is more stupidity......as I'm not intelligent enough to remember everything after 3 + years.

I tried to learn a foreign language. I took German for 2 years. I think part of it was my crappy teacher, but after 2 years I could barely speak a sentence of german, and write maybe a couple of paragraphs. I hardly remember anything now. I'm sorry that I'm too "ignorant" to learn a foreign language.

Originally posted by Twisterdog

And I agree - poor grammar, sentence structure and very bad spelling drive me crazy! I have to bite my tongue (or cross my fingers, whichever the case may be) to keep from constantly correcting them! I always wonder how these people manage to get through school without even learning the basics!! I know I make some errors, everyone does ... but some people's speech and writing are simply horrible!

I graduated from high school with a 3.9 average...I make spelling errors. In fact, I'm horrible at spelling. Once I get out of school I just well....forget. I hope my grammar isn't TOO awful, as I always hated grammar in school. I hear things people say that drive me crazy too....like double negatives, and misprouncing words like "Nucular" for "Nuclear" (I had a biology teacher who said "Nuculus" for the entire year! This was a teacher!!)

Sometimes part of the way people speak is the way they grew up. Part of this mispronunciation local. I know many people around here say "crick" for "creek," "fark" for "fork," "simular" for "similar," etc. I drive my parents nuts correcting them for "crick"....they KNOW it is wrong, that's just how they were raised saying it, so it's hard to change.

Sorry, I'm getting off of the original subject.........

Vio&Juni

01-14-2003, 09:31 AM

I will try to answer to Cataholic's questions, ignoring the other subjects brought in here, otherwise I would have to tell you my country's history and geo-political situation :)
It's very easy for me to write and speak in English as this is what I do all day long at the office and as a big part of my friends here in Chisinau are from different countries and we use English to communicate.
I speak Romanian, which is my native language, Russian, which used to be an official language for my country and people use it on a daily basis, French - since 4th grade (10 yo). I studied English and French language and literature at the University for 5 years. Before the university, the only things I knew in English was to count and greet someone. Studying mostly literary language, unfortunately very narrowly directed only to scientific study of languages, I found it difficult to start talking. Still, I am learning everyday. It's a great experience. I had a German boyfriend for a long time (I was supposed to marry him and move to Germany). With him, I improved my English and, of course, I learned some German. I am sure, if I were to live in Germany, German would be now my 5th language. Now, working as a translator and working mainly with telecom, finance and legal related terms, Pet Talk is a blessing. This is where I can enjoy English. And cats.
I had to lough (LOUD) when I read Miss Meow and Cataholic's "discussion" :)
And, no offence to American English speakers - I like better how British and Australian English sounds, although the American version is the easier one.

Tubby & Peanut's Mom

01-14-2003, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Cataholic

He he he...I say Libary!!!! I don't know why, but I do. I know it is wrong, but, I just got into the habit.

How about "yous guys" instead of you guys as in "What are yous guys doing today?" AAaaaaiiigghhhh...drives me crazy!!! One of my best friends says this all the time. I really believe that she knows it's not correct, and that's why she says it, but it's just like fingernails on the chalkboard to me. I don't know if people in other parts of the country say this, but where I notice it the most is in Northern Wisconsin (which is where I was born and raised).

'Course, dey also talk like dis up der in dat der Nort cuntry, you know, hey? Anybody remember that musical group that made a few songs out of talking like that? Weren't they called "Great White North" or something like that? They were too funny. The scarey part is, now that I live in Chicago where not many people talk like that, I go home and I can really hear it in my friends and family - mostly my dad. Dey really do talk like dat der, hey. ;) :D

And my mom used to say libary all the time - and she loves the library and goes there all the time. I finally got her to start saying library. :)

All Creatures Great And Small

01-14-2003, 10:50 AM

Ann - it's unfortunate that you had to run across so many of our "not exactly bright" citizens while you were here. However, much of your experience is anecdotal, and you are generalizing based on a small percentage of Americans (largely Southern Californians?) you have met.

Yes, America is very wrapped up in the September 11th tragedy, because it happened HERE, to OUR people. Naturally we will be a lot more concerned about it and want to memorialize the innocent victims. If it happened in Sweden, those people would be far more concerned about it, because it would be felt so directly and deeply. This is not because we think only Americans deserve to be mourned. How do you know that none of us care about innocent victims of war? I resent being lumped into a category of Afghan-hating ignorant people because I am a white American. I feel sick about ANY war, and I don't feel that anybody deserves to die because of some religious fanatic on a personal mission. bin Laden does not represent the entire country of Afghanistan, and I am ashamed that there are American people who truly feel that it "suits them right" (Afghans). As far as the pastor, well, that speaks more about religious exclusion than national pride and ignorance. Who knows how a Shintoist would feel if you told him you find American Catholicism fascinating and a better religion. If he was a Shinto extremist, he might get his knickers in a twist regardless of what country you're from. The beauty of this country is that there are AMERICANS who practice Shintoism right here in America, are free to do so, and would welcome Shintoists even if they were from Sweden ;) . Perhaps some of our religions are not very tolerant, but you are not forced by national policy to follow any of them, or persecuted/tortured/killed for your alternate beliefs as happens in some other countries.

I could go on forever too, mostly about how much I hate the "lumping" that I am seeing here. I cannot and will not form a general opinion of an entire nation based on the few people I have spoken with here on Pet Talk, met while visiting other countries, met while they were visiting here, etc.

And I have always known where Sweden is, but I had to look up Catalonia and Moldova - :o :o :rolleyes: - it's been a LOOOOONG time since I studied world geography! Did the European kids in that study do better at world geography, or local geography? Would they know the capital of each US state? Whatever; it really means nothing more than the ability to memorize and retain facts. Being able to recite from memory the capital of Saudi Arabia and point out the country on a map is just that; it doesn't necessarily mean the student has a deep understanding of the people and culture of that country or a greater understanding of the world as a whole. It just means they remembered those facts about Saudi Arabia. (I can remember learning which US state was which by the shape of their borders ;) when I was a tyke :p ) Not having a personal interest in current world events or other cultures isn't necessarily ignorance, just a personal preference. I'd rather study kitties:D . In fact, I think I'll go study my kitty right now.

popcornbird

01-14-2003, 12:40 PM

Twisterdog, he MAY have been having a bad day, but the fact that he only treated us in this way and was acting normal with the white Americans makes us sure he was racist. This is not the first time it happened, and we live in a very "international" area. Imagine if we were in a state where there were ONLY whites with a LOT of racist people. My cousin lives in Illinois and she gets yelled at everyday, just walking down the street, and she doesn't even "dress" like a Muslim. I guess they can just "tell" from her skin color. We've also had people yell at us for no reason, and it happens all the time since 9/11. Those people are idiots who associate everyone of a certain religion to a certain idiot. There ignorant behavior would be eqivilent to if we associate all Christians to Hitler. We were once walking back to our car in a store parking lot when this crazy guy in a truck zooms past us and yells "GO HOME!" :rolleyes: I was born here, raised here, and now I'm being told to "go home???" What home? Isn't this home? I "thought" it was. I have absolutely NOTHING against white Americans and I have MANY wonderfully nice white American friends, but these people make me SICK.

Regarding what Ann said, I agree with her fully. Suppose 9/11 happened in Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or any other "Muslim" country, or any other country. I don't think America would have cared, nor sided with any one of them to fight the war on "terrorism" nor would they have helped them as Pakistan or other countries helped them. As for the general public, some may have cared, become heartbroken (if they ever got the right information), but most (in my opinion) wouldn't have cared at all. Just like no one cares for the innocent Afghans that were killed in the war (outnumbered 9/11 victims) no one would have cared if 9/11 happened somewhere else. Remember, other nations have had 9/11 x 10, or 1000, or even 1000. They have had millions of people in their nations killed in war. Who cares? No one. But when a tragedy happens in America, the whole world cares. Americans are no better than any other human being. We are all people, we are all equal. I find it totally injust to care about certain people so much, and to have no care at all for people of other nations. Mankind is equal, and all should be cared for equally, whether they are in your city, your state, your country, your continent, your world. And also, what Ann said about people saying "it serves the right" MANY Americans have told me that as well. How would they feel if people said that about them? Thos innocent Afghan women and children and babies that were killed. What crime did they commit that it should serve them right? Living in their homes, in poverty, in the freezing cold with no proper shelter, struggling to live and keep their children alive....................it serves them right to be killed? I don't think so. :rolleyes: Very unfortunate. Sometimes I wish I was from another planet. :p

Edwina's Secretary

01-14-2003, 01:29 PM

It's something in human nature....EVERY society looks for others who are "different" and therefore labeled inferior. In Latin America it is the indigenous people (natives if you will), in England it's the Irish, in Pakistan it's the Hindus, in Croatia it's the Serbians, etc, etc, etc. The town where I grew up had a very large Swedish community and they would make jokes about the Norwegians -- very confusing as they looked alike to me!

When you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Is not labeling "Americans are all...." (regrettably I've not had the opportunity to meet the vast majority of anything!) "All people who profess this faith are_______", "all of those kind of people are___" not the very SAME behavior?

If you don't like being labeled....don't label! Change the world one person at a time!

Ann

01-14-2003, 01:35 PM

Popcornbird, I'm glad you agree. Sometimes it saddens me that people of other races or from other countries can see flaws in the USA that the "real" citizens can't see.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Ann - it's unfortunate that you had to run across so many of our "not exactly bright" citizens while you were here. However, much of your experience is anecdotal, and you are generalizing based on a small percentage of Americans (largely Southern Californians?) you have met.

Actually, while most of my real life experience is only from California, I work at a big online community with over 5000 members; the majority of those from the USA. I've based a lot of my opinions on them as well as the people I met in Cali, the people on Pet Talk and other websites. I really am not basing my opinions on just a few people, but hundres and hundreds I've talked to. And while those hundreds of course is a small percent of all the Americans, it still gives a pretty good view.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Yes, America is very wrapped up in the September 11th tragedy, because it happened HERE, to OUR people. Naturally we will be a lot more concerned about it and want to memorialize the innocent victims. If it happened in Sweden, those people would be far more concerned about it, because it would be felt so directly and deeply. This is not because we think only Americans deserve to be mourned. How do you know that none of us care about innocent victims of war?

I think Swedes and pretty much the whole world mourned for the innocent deaths on September 11. But would you have done the same? That was my point, nothing else...

Of course I know that not all of you are uncaring... A great example would be Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The thousands of people who died there were all innocent civilians and yet most Americans sees it as "a quick way to end the war without any American troops getting slaughtered".

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
As far as the pastor, well, that speaks more about religious exclusion than national pride and ignorance. Who knows how a Shintoist would feel if you told him you find American Catholicism fascinating and a better religion. If he was a Shinto extremist, he might get his knickers in a twist regardless of what country you're from. The beauty of this country is that there are AMERICANS who practice Shintoism right here in America, are free to do so, and would welcome Shintoists even if they were from Sweden ;) . Perhaps some of our religions are not very tolerant, but you are not forced by national policy to follow any of them, or persecuted/tortured/killed for your alternate beliefs as happens in some other countries.

Actually, I've spoken to many Shintoists before, and they have always been able to discuss other religions maturely and without calling me a "devil worshipper" :rolleyes:

The beauty of your country can be had in the majority of other countries as well. Sure, there are places like China in the world that doesn't allow free religion, but the USA is not unique with that.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Did the European kids in that study do better at world geography, or local geography? Would they know the capital of each US state? Whatever; it really means nothing more than the ability to memorize and retain facts.

They did better with both actually. The study wasn't like "name the capital of California" or anything like that, they asked more general knowledge questions like if there is a town called so-and-so in the USA etc.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Not having a personal interest in current world events or other cultures isn't necessarily ignorance, just a personal preference.

It's a complete different thing not to have an interest and to just be plain out uncaring and ignorant. Very big difference IMHO.

NoahsMommy

01-14-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by popcornbird
Suppose 9/11 happened in Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or any other "Muslim" country, or any other country. I don't think America would have cared, nor sided with any one of them to fight the war on "terrorism" nor would they have helped them as Pakistan or other countries helped them.
I'm sorry, but this is the exact opposite of the truth Popcornbird. I've grown up watching our government intervene in EVERYTHING other countries do if it involves any sort of attack. We have millions of men and woman serving our county in other countries during their military service. Do you remember the Gulf War? We were there to stop Sadam from taking over Kuwait...I am pretty sure that the Muslim religion is practiced there, right?

Ann, have you any idea what help the CITIZENS of the U.S. did to help the victims of the attack on Afghanistan? I'm sure you really don't. Many, many, many churches (yes! even non-Muslim ones) sent money/food/clothing/toys to the children and families. The U.S. government re-built buildings and airlifted food. Children in the US sent hand made cards and teddy bears to the children of Afghanistan. Many things were done, and all from us horrid Americans. I know you lived in California for a short while, but by you stating that we are ignorant as a general statement is a reflection of you, not fact. You really have no idea.

Popcornbird, you know I love you. :) I don't anything mean by my statement above. I can't even begin to imagine (you know, being a blond haired, white girl from California) the horribly disgusting individuals you have to deal with. When I drove by our local Islamic Center (in the town I live in) and saw that someone had broken the lights on their sign, I was heartbroken that someone that lived in the same town would have such a hateful heart. :( That was actually what was going through my mind as I sat watching the news on 9-11, how can anyone have that much hate and anger for another (unknown at that)?? I apologize for that man, bad mood or not, he had NO RIGHT to be such a jerk, regardless of your skin/eye/hair color.

Re: Not knowing state capitals or world geography.
I learned geography, oh, in 9th grade. That was over 10 years ago...this knowledge, just like anything else you don't use (like another language-Yay, Cataholic, I brought my rantings full circle!! :D ), you lose it. I know that I've learned a heck of a lot more in my college classes about the world than I ever would have in high school.... it applies now.

NoahsMommy

01-14-2003, 01:56 PM

For Ann:

"Today I'm announcing, along with the Secretary of State, that America will contribute an additional $320 million in humanitarian assistance for Afghans for more food, more medicine, to help the innocent people of Afghanistan deal with the coming winter. This is our way of saying that while we firmly and strongly oppose the Taliban regime, we are friends of the Afghan people.
We will work with the UN agencies such as the World Food Program and work with private volunteer organizations to make sure this assistance gets to the people. We will make sure that not only the folks in Afghanistan who need help get help, but we will help those who have fled to neighboring countries to get help as well.
There's no question that we're an angry people about what happened to our country. But in our anger, we must never forget we're a compassionate people as well. We will fight evil. But in order to overcome evil, the great goodness of America must come forth and shine forth. And one way to do so is to help the poor souls in Afghanistan. And we're going to do so.
I want to remind the world that helping people in need is a central part of not only the Christian faith, but of Judaism and the Hindu faith, and of course a central part of Islamic traditions. And that's why our coalition is more than just one to rout terrorism out of the world. It's one to bind together, to knit those traditions in a way that helps people in need."
~President George W. Bush, October 4, 2001

And here are some links for you to check out. Just because you don't see this stuff on your television, doesn't mean it isn't out there. I know about it, because I looked for ways to help.

http://www.usaid.gov/afghanistan/
http://www.givespot.com/ask/afghanistan.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30234-2003Jan8.html
http://www.evergreenairlines.com/news/12402.html
http://www.justgive.org/html/news/november.html#3
http://www.usemb-ashgabat.usia.co.at/pr61b.html

I think that is enough for now...this are only a few that I found. There are countless links on the aid the other contries offered, its wonderful.

Soledad

01-14-2003, 02:15 PM

I would just like to point out that there is a vast difference between having issues with the American government and the American people.

I'm a wee bit uncomfortable with this conversation, as I have been living in another country for years and have realised that Americans do not corner the market on ignorance, etc. That can be found everywhere. I suppose the difference is that America is the only superpower, and that that ignorance has far greater capability to hurt others than ignorance from other countries.

At any rate, I think generalisations can be useful, but dangerous after a certain point.

If Americans are weak on world geography, consider the fact that Americans are taught (as are Europeans) primarily the land surrounding them. As a result, your average American will know lots about their states, as would a European about the surrounding countries. I think we've had this discussion before at Pettalk.

Also, in regards to aid in Afghanistan, it has not been nearly enough. The country (the U.S.) that took out the Taliban has not been the leader in aid giving.

[URL=http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/01/20/afghan.donors/]

You would think that the "War on Terrorism" would seek to repair a broken country so that further regimes could not fill the vacuum. The current leader is only hanging on by a thread. Futher instability is not far off.

Cataholic

01-14-2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by popcornbird
An example of American ignorance about other people:

Today we went to the store to return a tweezer that my mom bought yesterday because it didn't work good. We got this old racist cashier when we went to return it. He started yelling at us and saying, "WHY DO YOU WANT TO RETURN IT???? THERE"S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT? WHY????? AND WHY ARE YOU HERE SO LATE? WHY COULDN'T YOU RETURN IT IN THE MORNING???" :mad: UGH!

??? Pops, this is an assumption on your part, I think, of this guy's racist attitude. I am pretty American looking..light hair, blue eyes, fair skin...and stuff like this happens all the time. Pops, I can't put myself in your shoes. I do not know discrimination. I haven't been a victim of it, I haven't really seen it in my life, but, I have had close friends that have. If I may give you an example. I am Godmother to an african american girl, who is now a teenager. I have known her since three months of age, and love her to pieces. I regret I am not intimately involved in her life right now. But, for years, I was. She and I would do things together..I would babysit her, we would run errands, etc. Sometimes we would be alone- her mom would be doing whatever she was doing. Sometimes, though, all three of us would be out. I usually was begging to carry the child, hold her hand, etc. Well, on more than one occasion, the mom would tell me, "Johanna, do you see that woman (funny, usually a white older woman) staring at you and XXX?" I would never notice, cause I wasn't looking for it...I haven't really been on that end of it..My point? I am not sure I have one, just that people's points of reference are so different. Maybe one person is hypersensitive to a situation, seeing fault where none exists. Or, maybe they are like me, not seeing it, cause it isn't on my radar. I know it exists. I have one or two experiences of a personal nature in another form of discrim. As a female attorney, I think it exists...but, it isn't the same as what you are experiencing, of that I am pretty sure.

Ann- I really take exception to essentially your entire post. I am not sure how someone could make such a general statement about an entire country, based on your admittably biased 'research' (talking over the internet to hundreds and hundreds). I, for one, am far from ignorant. I am highly educated, intelligent, bright, articulate, blah blah blah...and I am definetely American. I would choose to live no where else but here. My friends are not ignorant, my family is not ignorant, essentially, my profession is not ignorant (no lawyer jokes now folks). But, I will be the first to admit I don't know all the US capitals, I don't know world geography, I don't know most countries political structures, and I don't lose sleep over the mistreatment of humans outside of my center of life. Do I wish it weren't so? Of course. Do I know it goes on? Of course. But, I won't misrepresent myself as some overly humane person, grieving for the world. Why? Cause you have to fight your fights. I choose to focus on myself, my family, friends, community- as big as my country, as small as my neighborhood. I don't condone violence, though I think it is a necessary evil. My point of reference is the United States, my homeland. If that makes me ignorant, so be it. That is, I suppose, an interpretation of ignorance. I find it to be a bit more realistic, and candid than clamoring on about "The World".

The fact is September 11th happened in the USA, to largely American people, innocent at that. I am neither more or less of a person because I allow that tragedy to affect me more than the one in Afghanistan. September 11th was one of the first attacks on American soil. Perhaps that is why it was so traumatic. But, since when is the world about, "my crisis is bigger/better/more important than your crisis"? Does it make the innocent deaths less important to the loved ones? Does it even some imaginable score against the USA , as in "Hah, now see how you like it"?

I just truly struggle with understanding your point of reference. As one of the wealthiest countries in the world, I know our government contributes greatly to other nations. I know we do not receive the same support, in relation to the country's abilities, back. Sure, say it is for 'power', for 'strategy', for 'public relations'...whatever, the fact is, we contribute our people, our resources, our finances...and it doesn't make a lick of difference to the innocent people that recieve the contributions/life style changes/food/medication what the motives behind the donations are.

While I can appreciate your opinion, though I don't understand it, you seem very bent on bringing down the USA in order to make other countries stand tall. I don't think that is necessary. Any country can stand tall on its own, without having to do so at the expense of another country.

Cataholic

01-14-2003, 02:43 PM

Oh, one more thing, and I realize I might take some heat for this thought....I have found, at least on this board, that those leaning more towards the opinions expressed HERE by Ann and Popcornbird ( I am limiting it to the people that have posted on this thred), are younger....

I think that these are the opinions young people NEED to have, to help keep the world on its toes, to keep shaking up the establishment, to keep us examining the status quo.

I think as we age, we also see other things that come into play. Like- maybe whether one knows where Sweden is, or what the capital of Oklahoma is, might not be, gulp, that important????

I am not saying America, or any other country, is without fault. Ignorance really isn't 'country specific'. It is with age, experience, personal growth, that we come to see 'truth'.....

I am not saying, "If one is young, they don't know what they are talking about".

I am saying, "When one is young, one usually has a limited cache of experiences from which to draw upon, making their views/opinions/theories a bit less time tested than others."

Edwina's Secretary

01-14-2003, 03:44 PM

Cataholic -- you make some very valid points about life experiences. I am childless but my niece lives with me right now while attending college and my stepson lived with us for a few years. Early 20's both of them. It made me realize how "black and white" everything used to be to me -- very simple. Right was "my right" and wrong was everything else.

The world is far more complex than that and solutions are hard to come by as "one man's ceiling is another man's floor."

One last story then I will shut up on this thread. In August I was recruiting in London. A couple of the candidates I was interviewing decided to tell me what Americans "are like." One told me that Americans aren't friendly with co-workers and never make friends of them. (I responded that my husband and I had met as co-workers and were pretty friendly ;) ) Another told me that because Americans don't have employment contracts they have no loyalty to the employer and can make faster decisions. This from a man who had never stayed on a job more than 2-3 years! Yet another told me that Americans make very slow decisions because every thing has to be by concensus.

The point is...perception is the sum of the experiences we have had, the things we have read or heard. Another individual may have had completely different experiences and therefore have completely different perception. Is there a correct perception -- that's a great philosophical question!

NoahsMommy

01-14-2003, 03:47 PM

Very well put, Edwina's mommy. Very good.

Soledad

01-14-2003, 03:58 PM

Edwina'sMommy -

I don't believe perceptions are either right or wrong, they are simply subjective pieces of information. The sum of a person's experience can not be categorised as being correct or not, but it can still be valid.

Outsiders (be them American or not) have experiences that are valuable for the Insiders to know. If we talk to non-Americans and ask them what their perceptions of Americans are, we can learn a lot, regardless of whether or not those perceptions gel with our own. They are a valid piece of information that helps to get us closer to the truth.

When people here ask me what I think of New Zealanders, I give them my perception based on my time here. I don't think too many people are foolish enough to not realise that there are exceptions. But regardless if my take on NZers is what they think, they now have an idea of how they project themselves to the outside world, which can lead to a greater understanding of themselves.

All Creatures Great And Small

01-14-2003, 04:15 PM

Thank you, Cataholic. Well put, both posts.

Ann - there are more countries than just China that are religiously intolerant - Afghanistan, for example. I didn't say the US had a lock on religious freedom; it just seemed funny, you commenting on the religious "ignorance" you encountered in this free country which was really little more than a difference of opinion. Go tell a member of the Taliban that you feel Shintoism is a superior religion, and you will come away with more than hurt feelings. Just as we are not the only free nation, we are also not the only ignorant one. Yes, the US has "flaws". (Yes, we "whities" can see the flaws.) I'm sure Sweden does too. I just don't have the time or inclination to look up what they are and then bash them for it.

If you ask me "is there a town in Sweden called Malmo?", I have a 50/50 chance of getting it right. A multiple-choice quiz with 2 possible answers doesn't constitute European superiority in knowledge of world geography, just good luck.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are SICKENING. I wasn't on this earth when they happened, but I do NOT hold the opinion that it was a quick, easy way to end a war. Unfortunately, our elected officials can make decisions without the input of the American population, such as dropping bombs. This does not in any way mean that all Americans condone such activity. This happened back in a far more unenlightened time, which is why you wouldn't see us annihilating Afghanistan with nuclear bombs today to put a quick end to the bin Laden conflict. The US always contributes humanitarian aid to the victims of wars it participates in (not all the wars are STARTED by the US), and if it's not "enough", well, there's only so much to go around and still maintain the homeland. At least we give a little something.