Mink or Pine Marten?

[luckies4me]

I will be getting a new pet this spring. I have to decide whether I want a pine marten or a mink. :confused:


I am leaning towards the mink (not albino, I prefer the black) but pine martins are also cute. :)

Has anyone hear ever owned a mink before? You all should know what they are, they are slaughtered for their pelts. :mad: I have researched them tremendously and I will be getting a bottle baby. We are in the process of building him/her a huge enclosure. I may get a same sex pair though, and if I do then of course it will be females.

To see where my new pets are comming from, click here (http://www.awesomeexotics.freeservers.com/)

[Desert Arabian]

We have pine martens here in Wisconsin...I've seen them at our cottage before. I'd never own one though, they belong in the wild.

[luckies4me]

Actually pine martens have been bred in captivity for a long time. :) Almost as long as ferrets which of course as polecats in the wild. None of my exotic pets came from the wild or have wild parents. They were all born in captivity.

A lot of things belong in the wild. We wouldn't have rats if they weren't eventually domesticated. You can say that about any pet.

[luckies4me]

Also, if it weren't for some breedersof these animals they would be extinct by now. Chinchillas for instance are endangered species. But since they have been domesticated they will always live on as long as their are breeders out there with a love for them.

[Corinna]

I would get 2 males and have them netured. Females fix fight they are terriroal. Males are less to fight if fixed and raised to gether. I raised chinchillas for years very seldom could the females be to gether without one trying to kill the other. There are exceptions but myself I wouldn't want to risk the animal or my investment.
Good luck with your choice.

[luckies4me]

I am talking about mink. Both male and females are kept together and do not fight. Also I know a few friends who breed chinchillas and I have one, a PEW male. I have never heard of any of the females being territorial.

The same as mink. They are kept on fur farms and live together in same sex'. I have never heard of such a thing and the breeder who I am getting them from keep them together.

I WILL have them altered of course. Both males and females will show agression if they come into mating season. They are just like skunks, which I have also kept. If they are not altered and come into heat without being bred, they will die.

I own an exotic animal rescue. I have owned many types of exotics and I always thouroughly research any pet I get, before it comes home with me.

[Corinna]

Hey luckies are you the one where the wife of that crazy cocc hunter had her cougar? They did a show of her releaseing it again strange pair.

[luckies4me]

I don't quite understand what you are asking?

[Chinadoll]

luckies4me...please don't take offense to this...I checked out the site you said you'd be getting your new pets from. From what I saw, I'd have some real concerns getting an animal from them.

They give virtually no care information for each species. There is no adoption contract, just a purchase agreement....which makes me believe that they do not care how the animal is cared for as long as they place all these babies into paying homes. To me an ethical breeder would want you to tell them exactly how you are going to care and provide for one of their animals. They at least should provide more specific info on their site about the care and time each requires not just 3 or 4 lines!
http://www.awesomeexotics.freeservers.com/custom2.html
That page is a joke. For example: For a raccoon it says diet is dry dog food. I would think a good breeder would provide what types of dog food are best, which has the best nutrition etc.. the lack of information about the care of each implies to me that they don't care how potential owners care for their animals.

I would also think that considering they are selling exotics that they would want you to also show in a contract your state laws making sure that it is legal in your state to own said animal. They just put that it is the purchaser's responsibility to know the laws in their state. So...they sell to a person in a state where it's not legal...what happens when possibly the animal is confiscated and destroyed? Do they not care that that is a possibility?!

What really got me on a rant in the first place was when I glanced at the page of animals for sale. Ferrets are $50 and they state that they are not fixed or descented! NO ethical breeder of ferrets would sell a ferret that is not fixed or does not specifically state in an adoption contract that they will be fixed at x month. Basically I gather from this site that any joe blow with the right $$ could buy a pair of unaltered ferts...and should they get the bright idea not to fix them and try to breed them without any regard to genetics or blood lines ...the results would be horrid...most probably ending in the death of the female for if she is not taken out of heat she will die.

To me, their site shows callous disregard for the animals they are selling. I would be concerned about getting an animal from them. Can they tell you anything about bloodlines etc..? I would hate for you to get an unhealthy animal. I know that you have done the research and would properly care for whichever animal you choose...but what about joe blow who thinks it would be cool to have an exotic? I am appalled that the site does not have any specific requirements for the care taking of their animals....especially since they are exotics and require more care than other animals.

Just my 2 cents for what its worth. I'm not trying to rain on your parade or preach...I just wanted to share my concerns.

[luckies4me]

I totally understand where you are comming from believe me, and your concerns are ligit.

However, their site is fairly new. Their is an adoption agreement/sales agreement which states several factors that must be met before the animal can be homed.

Most breeders of exotic pets cannot keep up on the laws for each state, it is almost impossible. Each state is different and laws are always changed. It is the BUYERS responsibility to research the pet they think they may want, and for them to do the work. They require USDA licensing for all individuals who want to breed and I was drilled tremendously. ;) But I don't want to breed, just needed to point that our lol.

As for care articles yes they do not give much info on the site but when you purchase the animal you get a five (I think) page booklet on each animal that explains feeding, care, housing etc.

The ferrets are breeders only, not pets. They are unaltered so that they can be bred but will be altered if the buyer wants them as a pet. The exotic animal trade is very confusing if you do not know how it is ran.

They take very good care of their animals and have spacious enclosures, a lot bigger than almost every other dealer I have seen, which is what drew me to them. They keep their animals clean and healthy and that is what matters to me.


Being in exotic animal rescue I always run into throw a way type animals. Most of his animals are sold to other educational facilities, zoos etc. Mink are VERY hard to care for and not for most people. They stress this very much. I will be using this animal for educational outings at schools etc. Hopefully he will be semi tame, but I'm not counting on it.

[wolf_Q]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe in breeding wild animals like that for "pets." I don't know, it just bothers me. Just like people breeding wolf hybrids. Ok a smaller animal like a mink which is similar to a ferret seems different to me then like a coyote, fox, raccoon, bobcat, etc. (which they sell on that website). And a black bear??

I think it's great that you do exotic animal rescue. Isn't there any way you could get a mink from a rescue? I, personally, think it should not be as EASY as it seems to get an exotic animal like on that website.......just hand over the money and we'll ship it to you...

Now I'm not saying that you and other people are not capable of caring for an exotic animal (it seems you are very well suited to do this)....it's the OTHER people I'm worried about...the ones who think it's "cool" to have an exotic pet....

[luckies4me]

Yes I agree. I dislike the breeding of black bear, and bobcat etc.

There are not any rescues that take in Mink that I am aware of. :(
I am working on my license for that area also. I used to take in bobcat but we had to let Dans father 'borrow" the house so....But as soon as he finds a place we get it back, thank god!!

I do plan to breed Servals one day, after I have enough money and get my CITES license. But this will be conservation (they are endangered species) and will only be sold to other conservationists or zoos and educational facilities such as Wildlife on Easy Street.

Unfortunately exotic pets are all too easy to get ahold of. We have a unique animal expo comming up in February. They bring all sorts of exotics, even Caracals! Most they bring (like caracals who are listed in CITES) are illegal here without a holding/propagating license, USDA license and a CITES license. Others are just plain illegal period! I know there will be many people who go and leave with another exotic pet they have never researched and know nothing about! Most people breed just for money, it makes me sick!:mad:

[luckies4me]

Go here (http://www.arkrain.org/)

I would like to have something similar one day. :)

[mugsy]

Neither....they both belong in the wild and should stay there. I don't believe in captive breeding at all unless it's at a zoo for the preservation of a species.

[Chinadoll]

Originally posted by luckies4me
I totally understand where you are comming from believe me, and your concerns are ligit.

However, their site is fairly new. Their is an adoption agreement/sales agreement which states several factors that must be met before the animal can be homed.

Most breeders of exotic pets cannot keep up on the laws for each state, it is almost impossible. Each state is different and laws are always changed. It is the BUYERS responsibility to research the pet they think they may want, and for them to do the work. They require USDA licensing for all individuals who want to breed and I was drilled tremendously. ;) But I don't want to breed, just needed to point that our lol.

As for care articles yes they do not give much info on the site but when you purchase the animal you get a five (I think) page booklet on each animal that explains feeding, care, housing etc.

The ferrets are breeders only, not pets. They are unaltered so that they can be bred but will be altered if the buyer wants them as a pet. The exotic animal trade is very confusing if you do not know how it is ran.

They take very good care of their animals and have spacious enclosures, a lot bigger than almost every other dealer I have seen, which is what drew me to them. They keep their animals clean and healthy and that is what matters to me.


Being in exotic animal rescue I always run into throw a way type animals. Most of his animals are sold to other educational facilities, zoos etc. Mink are VERY hard to care for and not for most people. They stress this very much. I will be using this animal for educational outings at schools etc. Hopefully he will be semi tame, but I'm not counting on it.

My real problem with the site is the selling of whole ferrets. That's just way too easy for someone who thinks it's cool to breed to buy an unaltered pair and try to breed. For one...to properly breed, you need at least 5 ferrets....one of which being a vasectimized hob(male) to take the female out of heat during the times you don't her bred, more than one male so that at least one is in rut for when you want to breed, and a good vet that will give your female a hormone shot in case none of your males can bring her out of heat. So many things can go wrong with even experienced breeders.

Just to easy for someone with only marginal experience to get a breeding pair when in reality they need more than 2...not to mention no consideration of bloodlines and genetics. Ferrets are prone to many diseases/cancers. To breed a pair of ferrets without knowing their bloodlines and what genes they possess is completely iresponsible. Someone unexperienced can breed animals with the Waardenburg gene unknowingly and perpetuate deafness in ferrets etc etc..

Also, ferrets are domestic animals, not an exotic. Most of the ferrets I have are rescues. There is such an over population...I know many shelters that have a hard time keeping up. I just have a real problem with that site, perhaps unwittingly, contributing to backyard breeders. Ethical breeders have homes for all the babies before they're even born. They know the bloodlines. They are always prepared to care for any animal they breed for the rest of it's life if in any case the person adopting one of theirs does not work out. They know each and every person they adopt one of their babies to and educate that person in ownership if need be. Also want to add...the few breeders I know and shelters for that matter have extensive adoption agreements...listing how many pets, what happened to them, how you plan to care for the ferret(what size cage and food you plan to feed), whether you rent or own, your vets name and phone number etc.. All of this is to make darn sure that the animal they have bred is going into an excellent, educated home for the ferret.

I haven't done any research on exotics. My only problem with that site was the selling of unaltered ferrets. I'm sure you've done the research and I know you'd give any of those animals a good home. I'm not trying to sound pompous...but as long as you're comfortable with the site and know they're legit...that's great, I wish you the best of luck. my 2 cents again, for what it's worth.

[luckies4me]

Thanks everyone for your input.

Mugsy:

This animal is not going to be a "pet" which I don't know what else I would call him, but to call a mink a pet is rather dramatic, lol. He will be used in my educational program with local schoolkids. He will be a good animal to teach these young children about fur farms and the attrocities that go on there and how you should never let a wild animal back into the wild etc.

Of course I will love this animal dearly but he will not be here just for something for me to do or as a possesion. He will be an animal ambassador, and hopefully will do his job very well.

ChinaDoll:

I do agree with you on the ferret issue. I do not know how they go about selling their ferrets but I do agree with what you are saying. They should be altered before being sold. Here in our petstores there are unaltered ferrets from Marshall Farms being sold at our pet shops. :(

[luckies4me]

ChinaDoll:

Just wanted to let you know that how you are explaining contracts etc. is exactly how I breed my rats. All babies are usually pre-reserved before hand. All come with an adoption contract etc. I have five contracts: breeding, breeding/show, pet, show, and rescue.

My site is not finished yet and I still need to get the agreements up but you can take a look at it here (http://www.geocities.com/luckies4me/index.html) Sign the guestbook and let me know what you think. :)


I take the fancy VERY seriously. I know the genetics my lines carry and the pedigrees. I breed for temperament and health first, beauty second. My babies are handled since birth. All rats have spacious cages etc. Also, most babies are sold to private breeders. Although I sell to the general public also. I breed for myself basically, for the love I have for these tiny companions. I don't supply pet shops either.

I hope you enjoy the site. I should have a few new pages up later today, including my article on feeding.

[Chinadoll]

Originally posted by luckies4me
ChinaDoll:

Just wanted to let you know that how you are explaining contracts etc. is exactly how I breed my rats. All babies are usually pre-reserved before hand. All come with an adoption contract etc. I have five contracts: breeding, breeding/show, pet, show, and rescue.

My site is not finished yet and I still need to get the agreements up but you can take a look at it here (http://www.geocities.com/luckies4me/index.html) Sign the guestbook and let me know what you think. :)


I take the fancy VERY seriously. I know the genetics my lines carry and the pedigrees. I breed for temperament and health first, beauty second. My babies are handled since birth. All rats have spacious cages etc. Also, most babies are sold to private breeders. Although I sell to the general public also. I breed for myself basically, for the love I have for these tiny companions. I don't supply pet shops either.

I hope you enjoy the site. I should have a few new pages up later today, including my article on feeding.

I never doubted your breeding ethics. You can tell how much you love and care for them in the way you talk about them. Your ratties are so cute :D

[luckies4me]

Thanks!!! Did you go look at my site, hehe? I am trying to get guestbook entries, lol!

I finally added my form to the adoption page. I still need to get the agreements up though. It takes so long to finish everything lately. I have been super loaded with work!:p

[Twisterdog]

There was a lady that moved to my town that had a pet bobcat. (Which is illegal here, BTW.) She would dress it up in a coat or sweater and walk it around town on a leash, with her dog .. also on a leash and in a coat. It made quite a spectacle ... which is exactly what she wanted. The bobcat always looked scared and miserable. It really ticked me off.

I have a real problem with exotics available to the general public. Zoos, conservationists and rescues are quite a different story, of course. But I personally feel it should be illegal for Joe Q. Public to purchase or own a bear, bobcat, wolf, aligator, tiger, ocelot, etc. Seems to me that 90% of people who get an exotic animal do so for the shock value or the "cool" factor ... and when that wears off, out goes the animal.

I've recently taken in a six foot long green iguana, two box turtles, several wild-caught (illegal) song birds, a tartantula, etc. These animals were someone's exotic pets, and they got tired of them, and they ended up at animal control or the humane society ... malnourished, sick and miserable.

I believe that we have enough already-domesticated pets to fill any niche or need. I don't think there is any need to attempt to domesticate more and more species by making them exotic pets.

And, IMO, there's far more than enough ferrets in the world, without someone selling unaltered ones on the internet. Sheesh.

[luckies4me]

Did you read the whole thread? I own an exotic animal rescue, this is what the animal will be for.

[Twisterdog]

Yes, I read the whole thread. I saw where you said you owned a rescue. My comments weren't directed at you in particular, I was just stating my general opinions about exotic pets.

However ... no offense intended ... but I'm not sure buying a baby mink to bottle feed via the internet qualifies as rescue.

Just MHO.

[luckies4me]

No this animal is not a rescue. He will be an animal ambassador and used in educational outings etc.

I like to use animals that are bottle raised or handled from a very young age. Most rescues have been so neglected they are afraid of humans. Not much use for educating the public. However there are many rescues we do use, such as rats, bats and other small animals that tend to tame down pretty easy even after enduring horrific things in their past.

[NoahsMommy]

I don't understand why you would support this company by purchasing anything from them. Your ultimate goal is to stop exotic animals from being hurt/abandonded/abused, yet you contribute to a company that freely breeds and actively SELLS black bears, squirels, minks, larger cats, etc??? If I had your goal, I'd be doing anything I could to STOP this company.

Maybe I'm missing something....I'm still amazed this isn't illegal!

[luckies4me]

The reason I am going with this company is because they care a great deal about their animals, and in their contract it states that every animal that leaves their home can always come back. They sell to other breeders, educational facilities, zoos and conservation centers. It is becomming very hard now a days for just anyone to aquire an extic pet. Laws are getting stricter etc. I don't believe breeding animals for conservation or private homes is wrong, and that includes exotics. Their are many people out there who put the effort into caring for their animals and learning and growing with their pet. I will not single out these people from the other careless owners out there.

Many exotic rescues animal ambassadors come from private breeding facilities as this one. Like I said, unless you know how this trade works it can be very confusing. And the animal I am purchasing is considered a domestic fur bearing animal. They are raised for pelts and have been kept as pets for many years. Oregon state does not consider them an exotic, they are bred for fur. They are profit animals as that is how many people view them.

[Desert Arabian]

Personally, I think it is sick. It breaks my heart to see wild animals like big cats, black bears, alligators, sharks, any wild animal, cooped up in a cage/tank. Black bears belong in the woods climbing trees, alligators belong in the swamp, sharks belong in the ocean, and big cats belong in the woods/plains/rainforest etc. There is a three foot Nurse Shark at our local pet store in a small tank and all it does is lay on the sand and swim in circles, it is the most depressed looking creature I have ever seen in a pet store. Some animals just aren't ment to be domesticated.

That's all I am going to say - - BTW, this is directed to the intire public not just any one person.

[luckies4me]

YLL: You say these animals ae meant to be climbing trees etc. but is it not you who hunts them? Do you not go out with your father?


I do believe that most of these animals belong in the wild. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it. Look at Texas. They allow all sorts of animals as pets!

[NoahsMommy]

We are constantly hearing that a shark is being killed for attacking/eating a person. We hear a mountain lion is being tracked for kill after it attacked a person. The same goes for bears and any other animal "brazen" (HA!) enough to hurt/kill/eat a human...animals were put here BEFORE us...WE moved in and built our homes/stores/roads in THIER homes....but let us feel free to kill them for living instinctually while we steal thier homes and quite possibly thier food sources. That alone, should prevent ANYONE from breeding mountain lions.

The very idea of someone breeding these animals is terrible. I'd like to hear the "logic" behind it being "OK" to breed "exotic" animals for the betterment of others...is that what you are saying? Its OK to breed them and sell them to whoever can get a few bucks just as long as the breeders "love" their animals and offer information to zoo's (not all that great of a selling point) and rescues. I''m sorry, but if there weren't people out there selling a black bear for $600.00, there wouldn't be much need to have a rescue group.

If these people really cared for the welfare of these animals, they wouldn't be breeding them. Its as simple as that, I'm not not understanding anything.

I care greatly for all animals. It hurts my heart that so many of them are being exploited this way. It hurts my heart to see dogs, cats, birds, ect. being purchased and either given up or ignored due to humans no longer caring. You know what I do about it?? I volunteer at a no-kill shelter. We socialize cats so they can have a new life, with some one who really loves them. I adopt "regular" cats from the shelter, I don't contribute to the problem. That is what you are doing....you are contributing to this problem....

[luckies4me]

Not every breeder is bad. Are you then condoning very breeder out there?

I plan to breed Servals one day, because they are an endangered species and through conservation effots these animal can live for many more years. Some of these animals are almost extinct in the wild!

Most of my animals are rescues.

All animals started out somewhere. All pets were once wild and domesticated at some point. Not all should be but well many are. Our cats, dogs etc. Sometimes the only way an animal can live on is through breeding programs.

My toroise for instance is an engangered species. I hope to get a female next summer and start my breeding program. Not ALL breeders do it for money, they do it for the love of the species. And yes, I don't have a problem with responsible breeding.

[Desert Arabian]

Why yes I do hunt certain animals, along with thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of other people, and I still have respect for animals just like any other non-hunter. (My dad and I once found an injured duck- did we shoot it? No, we took it to the Wisconsin Humane Society, where they treated it and it was later released.) You wouldn't truly know about hunting, since you don't hunt, so you can't judge. No, I have never eaten Mt. Lion, neither has my dad. The animals I hunt to eat do not climb trees, not like that matters. I'll tell you one thing, as a hunter, I know way more about the deer, the wild rabbit, the duck and goose, than any non-hunter would. I love walking into the woods at the crack of dawn and smell the sweet air and listening to the birds wake up and start singing, and once and a while hear the occasional turkey gobble, and as I sit there on the ground I like to watch the squirrels chase eachother in the trees and act like hooligans, and I like to watch the Bald Eagles soar high above the pine trees and listen to the stream next to me trickle on the rocks, and watch the beautiful sun rise up and the fog lift from the swamp. I like to watch the Pilated Woodpeckers (sp) bang away on the maple trees, so loud it could wake up the whole forest. It is so peaceful and relaxing to sit in the middle of the woods, away from the hustle and noise of the inner-city. It's not all about killing animals. I mainly go out to enjoy the sights and sounds, and if I get lucky enough, and I do see my food, I might take it, or I might not. But like I said, you have no clue about any of this, for you have never experinced it, but those who have (most) like it. Have you ever watched a river otter play with duck decoys splashing about and tugging them under water, and see a fox play with its kits, or watch a black bear go running past you completely unaware of you- I doubt you have. Just because I hunt doesn't mean I have a cold cold heart and have no feeling about animals, I have more respect for animals BECAUSE of hunting, it has turned me into a different type of person, in a good way, and I am glad. I'd never give up hunting, never. And I could careless what anyone thinks about it.

[luckies4me]

I never said you were a cold hearted person or anything remotely like that. As far as seeing animals, I have seen many animals in the wild. Our whole backyard is that, wilderness.

Deer come to our doorstep! Yes I have seen wild bear, otter, coyote, wolves, etc in the wild. Playing and running free.

I have came too close to a bear once, luckily he only wanted our monkey chow and not me! I do believe you respect animals and I didn't imply otherwise. It just sounded weird that you say these animals belong in the wild but then you would shoot one and hang it on your wall....:confused:

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by luckies4me
Not every breeder is bad. Are you then condoning very breeder out there?
Basically any "breeder" that sells mtn. lions, bears, porcupines, etc on the INTERNET! I mean come on, I have no clue how you can not see any problem with that, especially being someone with a heart for rescue.

If you don't, where do your rescue animals come from? People finding porcupines out in the wild, taking them home as pets and them kicking them out because they got cut on its needles???

I know these animals are beautiful and intriging, but there is a reason they are called "wild" animals. They don't deserve to be caged or made to be anywhere around humans.

You said something about all animals starting out somewhere. Is this mink, and eventually a serval an insight into what you plan to do? Making them more domesticated so everyone can have their very own serval? Is that what these breeders are doing this for? So we can all have a brown bear in our back yards? That is insane...

BTW...Are there any laws that have to be upheld to have an exotic rescue??

[mugsy]

I would NEVER CONDONE a breeder....I would CONDEMN many of them, however. You have no right to breed these animals, unless you have a degree in animal husbandry or some related field and the breeding is being done in a zoo that is working to preserve a species. I do NOT believe the average citizen has a right to do this. It is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Somehow I missed somewhere the connection of you rescuing these exotics to buying babies on the net (or anywhere else for that matter). Rescue should be for injured animals or animals that, for one reason or another, cannot be returned to the wild. Why don't you just concentrate on your child and Mystic? I appreciate the fact that you are trying to educate young people about these animals, but can't you do it as a volunteer at the zoo and go to schools from there? Just asking.

[iceyshiver21]

Personally, i stand behind you all the way, luckies, i think you are doing an outstanding job on your site and teaching the public about wild animals is great!! For when i was little my school took a trip to the Prarie Winds Animal center, and we went out on a farm and looked at all the chincilla's, ferrets, snakes, rare and not so rare critters, and even a baby tiger that they were raising, to be future realesed in the wild, because it had lost its mother im sad to say, the look in the eyes my freinds, and peers, was of fasination, excitment, wonder, and RESPECT. After that day i realized my true love for all animals and am happy to see that others are out there doing the same thing.

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Just one clarification here - my daughter and husband are not "trophy" hunters. They do not hunt for the sole purpose of putting a head on a wall. (In fact, my husband has been hunting for over 30 years, and last year was the first time he had a mount done.) They hunt because they enjoy the taste of duck, goose, and venison, and the enjoyment of being outdoors. A carnivore is a carnivore, whether you eat grocery store meat or wild meat, so "hunting" in and of itself does not constitute animal hatred or a wish to see all animals in captivity. My daughter and husband would not want to see any of the animals they hunt "domesticated", would never hunt at a game farm, where the animals are contained within boundaries and the kill is almost guaranteed, because they respect that game animals should live in the wild. Wouldn't it be nice if all the beef we ate came from cattle that were allowed to graze and roam freely right up until the bitter end? We had this discussion before on another thread where taxidermy was being condemned as barbaric. Once again, I must reiterate, if you eat animal flesh, you cannot judge hunters, and you can't make a connection between hunting and the wish to domesticate/cage/"own" wild animals. I know you said you didn't imply that about my daughter, but you did raise the question.

I also am confused as to how a "rescue" operation comes about by purchasing animals. At the start of this thread, you repeatedly said that you were purchasing a "pet". Then, it became an "ambassador", and finally, the "rescue" slant was put on it when you weren't getting too much approval for your choice. The Humane Society doesn't have to go out and purchase animals to keep it's shelters full - I would think you would rather leave space open for animals that are truly in need of rescue than continue to collect exotics. The money you spend feeding your "ambassador" could be spent on an actual rescue animal. I don't think you could teach anything to kids by exhibiting a purchased animal, other than how easy it is buy an exotic animal on the Internet. Why not exhibit a rescued animal instead, to teach the kids about responsible animal ownership and treatment?

And Twisterdog, you hit the nail on the head exactly.

[Twisterdog]

Luckies ...

I think we're all a little confused here. In your first post you said, " I will be getting a new pet this spring," then later on in the thread, after a few people questioned it, you said, "This animal is not going to be a "pet"."

You told me, "I own an exotic animal rescue, this is what the animal will be for", and then later told me, "No this animal is not a rescue."

You also stated, "Unfortunately exotic pets are all too easy to get ahold of," and then later you said, "It is becomming very hard now a days for just anyone to aquire an extic pet. Laws are getting stricter etc." The latter comment is just not true, except in a very few states. Exotic animals are being bred and sold and exploited at a rate never before seen in the country right now. Every humane society and shelter and animals rights organization is very aware of this. There are actually more tigers in private captivity (most of them in tiny cages, some in truck stop parking lots, etc.) than exist in the wild.

The main problem I have with this whole thing is that the general public is - rightfully so - very confused about what constitutes a "rescue". If one is not directly involved in the animal fancy, one really has no clue. This is 90% of the general population. A rescue is a person or an organization that saves unwanted animals from death or a horrible life, provides them veterinary care, etc. and places them in a screened home. A rescue never buys animals, and a rescue most certainly does not ever buy animals from breeders with questionable breeding practices. If a rescue supports a breeder with unethical practices, or buys animals from a mill, the public has no idea what the difference is between a rescue, a mill, a back yard breeder, a shelter, etc. Rescues who don't hold themselves to the highest ethical standards hurt all rescues.

I rescue dogs. As such, my nemesis is the back-yard breeders and puppy mills of the world. They churn out unaltered animals to anyone with the cash. They are the source of the dogs I have to pull from animal control on their last day of life, the puppies that someone finds in a box beside the road, frozen to death, the dogs that live their whole lives chained up in the yard. If there were no back-yard-breeders or puppy mills, there would be no problem in the dog fancy! Only reputable breeders would breed a limited number of dogs, and they would all be pre-sold to screened homes - as it should be. I would cut off my arm before I would put a single penny into the bank accounts of those morally-bankrupt scumbags. I would never buy a puppy from them!! I agree with NoahsMommy - as an exotic rescue, you should despise companies like this one, and be doing everything in your power to get them shut down ... not buying animals from them!!!

Also, there's a couple more things I need to point out:

You said, "My toroise for instance is an engangered species. I hope to get a female next summer and start my breeding program." I'm don't know what kind of tortoise you have, but many, many species of turtles and tortoises are endangered today because of the exotic pet trade. The pet trade did not 'save' these animals, it almost destroyed them, by removing so many young animals from the wild for pets that there were not enough left to produce viable future populations. Yes, I have done research on this.

You also said, "We wouldn't have rats if they weren't eventually domesticated. You can say that about any pet....All animals started out somewhere. All pets were once wild and domesticated at some point. Not all should be but well many are. Our cats, dogs etc." To me, this is the main faulty-logic argument of exotic breeders. Yes, at some point in the distant, distant past ... some pre-Homo Erectus hominid did indeed probably steal a wolf puppy from a den, thereby beginning the domestication of modern dogs. More likely, though, those primitive wolves began to hang around the Neanderthal fires, for the scraps of kills. They were allowed to stay, because they served as alarms, with their keener ears and noses. The relationship probably developed as a mutually beneficial, symbiotic one. This is a far cry from trying to justify to modern exotic pet trade. We have enough domestic animals, animals that have been domesticated for eons ... we don't need any new ones!

I also don't agree with this, necessarily "I like to use animals that are bottle raised or handled from a very young age. Most rescues have been so neglected they are afraid of humans. Not much use for educating the public." Why not? Are you not trying to educate the public as to the horrible things that happen to wild animals when they are kept as "pets" by people who don't have a clue how to care for them? So, why wouldn't a scared, formerly abused mink serve that purpose as well, or better, than a very tame baby that you handfed? Seems to me that if people see how cute, furry, tame and sweet this mink is ... they are not going to be listening to your talk about how abused and miserable mink are in captivity ... they are going to be thinking, "Wow, cool, I'm gonna get me one of them little critters!"

Also, BTW, I did a quick seach on Google.com for "mink rescue" ... and found over twenty pages of results. I didn't research any of the sites, because I'm not wanting a mink, but there are a lot of places the rescue mink and some of them looked very good at quick glance!

I'm sorry to seem like I'm really bashing you, luckies ... but this is a big sore spot for me. Either one is a rescue, or one is not. If one is, one has no use for unethical breeders. One certainly does not support them monetarily.

[iceyshiver21]

i just think alot of things are just being misunderstanding going on here, i think words are getting twisted around and changed on us, twister, yes two different things may have been said, but on the message board, i left to come here i was missunderstood the post went to my cruel and cold hearted nieghbors to how cruel i was for putting my dog on a chain for a few hours so i could fix the fence, but could i leave him running around loose to get hit by a car! I DONT THINK SO!, but they wouldnt listen to what i had to say, they just turned my words against me, and i figgerd that if they wouldnt listen to what i was saying i would leave and i did.


**and hunting is not a bad thing, as long as ur motives are honarable, humans have been hunting since the dawn of time, no i dont agree with doing it to hang a head on ur wall but, My dad hunts for the meat, so HEY mabey some of you should think of the staving animals we would have due to over population if there wasnt somthing to control the numbers, but ill leave the rest for you to decide its your opinion

******to keep to the original question i think a mink.

[luckies4me]

First yes I said he would be a pet, which I don't really know what else you would call him if I will be taking care of this critter, loving feding him etc. But well, I wouldn't actually consider a mink a pet. I never said he was a rescue, I said I have a rescue. Big difference. This animal will be used in educational outings, to educate the public about fur farms.

Mink do not show up in rescue, that's just the way it is. They are not considered exotics so exotic rescues don't take them. Since they are fur bearing creatures they are usually euthanized or let go into the wild, which is an awful thing both for the surrounding ecosystem and the mink, who has no idea how to survive in the wild anyway.


I do not agree with tigers, bears, etc. being bred in captivity for pets. There are people out there who do it for conservations for zoos etc so that certain animals will be around in the future. As far as me breeding servals I have knowledge in animal husbandry, veterinary medicine etc. as anyone who plans to do this needs to. I have always worked with animals. A far as me wanting to breed servals they are not being bred as pets in no way. They are being bred for conservation of the species. To sell to zoos, other breeders for conservation etc. ALthough some people do own them as pets. You are entitled to your opionion, and me mine.

Yes there are MANY laws/licensing needed to breed any exotic or endangered animal. If you read I stated first off you would need a USDA license for anyone who seels/breeds/gives away an exotic pet. For buig game mammals you need a holding and propagating license, for endangered or threatened species you need a CITES permit. There are VERY strict requirements that need to be met but all of the people who issure these licenses. You need to feed the right food, have spacious enclosures, and they come inspect your facility BEFORE they issue the license. You have to meet all aspects of the Animal Welfare Act.


As for my tortoise I have a California Desert Tortoise , yes heis endagered and not because of the pet trade. It is illegal to take them from the wild, let them back into the wild after they have been in captivity etc. If I were to breed him, which I am, it is for conservation and all babies become the property of the state and go to a facility where they will be prepped for release back into the wild after several years. These animals are dying in the wild, this is the only way to keep them here on this earth. By studying them, helping to find a cure for their respiratory illness etc. and to prep them for release back into the wild by a qalified biologist and veterinarian who watches their progress for several years. These animals are not endangered because of the pet trade (which it is illegal for them to do that anyway!) they are illegal because of a widespread upper respiratory illness. Also many are drowning in floods while in hybernation. Before you comment on a particular species please do your research.

I own exptic pets and I purchase exotics, however I still do rescue. I know what rescue is, I own one. Don't come here and tell me about my ethics because I know what they are and am bound to them with my heart and soul! Myhedgehog came from a breeder who I know who has very high requirements and most babies are reserved before being bred, which any responsible breeder makes sure to have at least 5 or more (depending on species) reserved before the breeding takes place.

A LOT of my animals were rescues. Like I said, you have your opinion and I have mine and you have heard it. Now stop with the finger pointing and get over it.

[Twisterdog]

Mink do not show up in rescue, that's just the way it is.

Oh, really? Hmmm ..... well, here you go - a partial list of the first page only out of twenty-plus pages of MINK RESCUE (most also rescue ferrets) sites I found today:

http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/ferretrescue/
http://www.veggies.org.uk/acd/europe/UK/rescue/countyo.htm
http://washingtonferret.org/photos.shtml
http://www.biologie.uni-osnabrueck.de/Ethologie/lutreola.html
http://www.wildliferescue.ca/Stories/Success_Story_Clips.htm
http://home.att.ne.jp/blue/ferret/eg_ft_b2.html




Yes there are MANY laws/licensing needed to breed any exotic or endangered animal. If you read I stated first off you would need a USDA license for anyone who seels/breeds/gives away an exotic pet. For buig game mammals you need a holding and propagating license, for endangered or threatened species you need a CITES permit. There are VERY strict requirements that need to be met but all of the people who issure these licenses. You need to feed the right food, have spacious enclosures, and they come inspect your facility BEFORE they issue the license. You have to meet all aspects of the Animal Welfare Act.

Well, maybe in theory. You know as well as I do (or at least you should know, if you are a rescue), however, that I - or anyone else - could go on the internet right now with a credit card and purchase ANY exotic animal we wanted. I could own a whole zoo by this evening! It's done all the time. "Spacious enclosures", my rear-end. If you do exotic animal rescue, you have seen first hand the way these animals live. I saw two tigers this summer, living in an asphalt parking lot, in dog kennels. The "permit" to keep these animals was plainly posted on their dog kennel. It's pathetic, it's an abomination ... and ANYone involved in rescue has seen it and knows it.




Before you comment on a particular species please do your research.

I didn't comment on a particular species. I plainly stated, "I'm don't know what kind of tortoise you have, but many, many species of turtles and tortoises are endangered..." I said in the first sentence that I didn't know what kind you had, therefore I wasn't commenting on any particular species ... I was making a general comment about many species. Before you misquote me, please read more carefully.

Futhermore, you said, "As for my tortoise I have a California Desert Tortoise , yes heis endagered and not because of the pet trade." That is not true. I have listed a few quotes below, there are about 1,000 more on the internet, stating that the pet trade is indeed one reason why the California Desert Tortoise is endangered today.

"The desert tortoise is an endangered species. It has suffered an enormous decline in population sizes (up to 55% is some areas) due to the loss of habitat, over collecting and vandalism. In 1974, a law was passed making the practice of collecting wild tortoises illegal. However, many are still taken from their habitat for zoos and for their large shell." Source: http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/accounts/gopherus/g._agassizii$narrative.html

And ... "Tortoises have suffered declines due to the degradation of habitat, predation of eggs and young, disease, and collection for the pet trade." Source: http://www.enature.com/fieldguide/showSpeciesIMG.asp?imageID=19318

And ... "Habitat destruction, pet trade, automobiles, and respiratory disease have reduced their numbers greatly. The respiratory disease was introduced into wild populations when people released infected desert tortoises they had as pets in an attempt to help re-establish the population. Unfortunately, it did more damage than good. Source: http://www.sfzoo.org/cgi-bin/animals.py?ID=46



Now stop with the finger pointing and get over it.

Nope, sorry, not going to happen. We are all entitled to our opinions, and we all have the right to voice them. Which I will continue to do, now and always, whenever I see a "rescue" buying unweaned baby animals from an unethical breeder via the internet. It's part of my responsibility as an ethical rescuer to do so.

[luckies4me]

WOW! Thanks for al of those links!

I searched for mink rescues and nothing came up. I will be sure to contact them instead! Thanks again!

[Twisterdog]

You're welcome. :) Want me to look for some more for you?

[luckies4me]

Can you please? I just did a search and nothing came up at all. All I got where articles on how to feed your ferts. Hmmm.... What search thingy are you using? I don't know of many, just yahoo and aols. What is the best search engine to use?

Thanks for all your help!!!! I never knew this, it really opens up a whole nother can of worms! I would much rather rescue one than have to purcahase one. Maybe they have a young adult that woud tame failry easy I could use. Thanks again!:)

[Twisterdog]

I use Google.com. And put in very specific search criteria. I used "mink rescue", but you could even try "mink rescue adoption", to narrow it down further.

I'm sure most of them won't be what you are looking for ... but you only need to find one good one, right? :)

[luckies4me]

Oh one of the links you gave was a breeder on mink and ferrets.

The others are based in the UK mostly but I did find one, the one in Washington. I will contact them tonight as I see they have three mink there. However, the animal cannot come to me until the encolsure is built and I get the appropriate license.

WOW! This makes me feel so much better, you have no idea! I will go try Google, thanks!

[frothingmagpies]

I know this is an ancient thread, but in case anyone comes across this thinking a mink is a cute alternative to a ferret & gets one, I want to make this apparent: They are nothing alike.

If female ferrets go unspayed they die eventually from anaemia, if mink go unspayed/neutered they are just fine.

Ferrets stink, mink don't (unless they spray from the gland under their tail in excitement).

Mink are larger, especially the males, & far more powerful.

Some ferrets like baths and water, some don't, mink are more closely related to otters & *need* a deep pool to swim in daily.

Ferrets are sociable & love being kept in groups. Mink are extremely territorial & will kill any mink, ferret, cat or small dog that comes into their territory.

Mink love to climb! As in, up your curtains, onto your mantel and windowsills, prepare to have everything knocked over, broken & never open a window again.

Ferrets actually aren't great hunters, they were domesticated to flush out rabbits into nets for people to kill, & can only be used for ratting a few times before they become too scared & refuse to go down the burrow. Mink can & given the chance will hunt without any training at a young age & are basically fearless, you cannot train them out off it. On the contrary, if trained they are excellent hunters.

While both can be descented, it is a very dangerous & unnessecary risk to the animals. Descenting is the removal of a gland under the tail which is used when the animal is in pain, fear or feeling aggressive (less common than the other two, but still happens). A domesticated animal has been selectively bred to have a lower adrenaline level - meaning it doesn't feel that fear that a more highly strung wild animal would in a home environment. So a mink is able to "squirt" this foul stench every time it freaks out. Which could be every time the doorbell rings, the phone calls, someone bursts out laughing... Hard to live with, trust me.

Mink are extremely unpredictable. A bottle raised baby might bond with you, but will still attack anyone it doesn't recognise - there is NO WAY IN HELL you can bring it into schools! Trust me, I love mink, love living with them... But I would never let anyone hold one without understanding they could do everything right & still get their fingers broken or need stitches.

You also have to deal with animal rights activists. People are wierd with wild animals as pets - some people want to see them as puppies & kittens in fancy coats, some people hate them being kept in captivity.. You will almost never have someone who respects & likes your mink for being a mink. Not a toy, a baby, a monster, a vicious animal... Just a mink.

Also diet! Ferrets are actually pretty happy with high quality kibble, but mink need fresh meat and fish, they cannot digest that kibble mush. You'll need to buy a mixture of organ, flesh & whole prey food for them, that means rats, mice, chicks, rabbits. They need to chew all those bones & feathers/fur for roughage. No worries though, you can buy them frozen from reptile pet shops. Not cheap though :/

They can be litter tray trained which is such a relief because what they leave behind... well wow it smells much stronger than cat or dog, just bleh xD

Then theres pine martens, which have a lot of the same problems, but actually like a little more plant matter in their diet, & instead of the typical mink aggression they're really more shy. They prefer hiding away up high. So you'll need a lot of high shelves & boxes up high for it to hide away in. Also martens are much larger so their bite is worse, buuut they're less likely to bite. You won't find any breeders though, so I'm not sure of where you'd get one. the pet ones I know were bought from trappers at a young age. As in, their mothers had to be killed in order to collect them. Not sure of where that would fit into your rescue plan. My friend only bought her's because the trapper she knew didn't intend to harvest a baby too, he really only wanted adult animals but ended up with this kit too after the mother was killed. It's also worth mentioning that wildlife rescues don't sell their animals as pets, they're legally restrained from doing so. If an animal cannot be released it is almost always killed instead.

[Karen]

I know this is an ancient thread, but in case anyone comes across this thinking a mink is a cute alternative to a ferret & gets one, I want to make this apparent: They are nothing alike.

Wow, do you have a pet mink? I've seen a wild one, but never a pet one ... (One bounded across the road in front of my car one evening in a pretty wooded area ... I was quite surprised!)